00:05 - Kelli Thompson
I really think we just need to get comfortable with the while. Also, I can advocate while also feeling doubtful. I can ask for more salary while also feeling nervous. I can go for this job while also wondering if I'm a little bit qualified and like that's where the power lies in working with this very normal, healthy human emotion.
00:20 - Crystal Ware
Welcome to the Get Clear with Crystal Wear podcast, the place where we get clear on our goals, own our worth and learn to be the CEOs of our own lives. I'm your host, crystal Wear, lawyer and former Fortune 500 corporate leader who found the confidence to say goodbye to a lucrative career and start my own business. Now I'm opening up the playbook and sharing everything I've learned to get you there faster. It may not be easy, but it will always be worth it because you are made for more. So put on your big girl pants, jump on board and let's reach for the stars. Are you ready to get clear? Welcome back to another episode of Get Clear with Crystal Wear, and today on the show we have a very amazing special guest, my friend from LinkedIn, kelly Thompson. Welcome to the show, hi.
01:15 - Kelli Thompson
I'm excited to actually take this off of LinkedIn and in quasi real life.
01:19 - Crystal Ware
Yes, it's going to be awesome. Kelly is a women's leadership coach and speaker who helps women advance to the rooms where decisions are being made. She has coached and trained thousands of women to trust in themselves, lead with more confidence and create a career they love. She is the founder of the Clarity and Confidence Women's Leadership Program and a Stevie Award winner for Women in Business as a coach of the year, and she is also the author of a critically acclaimed book Closing the Confidence Gap. So we will dive into all of those things, but what I always like to start with is tell us what your career journey was and how it was that you came to be this amazing coach and advocate for women.
02:05 - Kelli Thompson
Yeah, if you would have asked me when I was a little girl what I wanted to be, it was not this. In fact, we were having a conversation about the weather, and so before we hit record, and so one of the fun things that I love to tell people is actually, from the time that I was a very little girl up until college, all I wanted to be was the weather girl on TV. I was fascinated with weather, fascinated with meteorology. That was my major in college. And I got to college and started taking meteorology classes, calculus, physics, science, all the stuff you have to take, and I'm like this is terrible. And then I just kind of had this aha moment that if I wanted to be like a weather person, like oh, I'm going to have to work the six and 10 o'clock news every night and I'm like I don't know what, the six and 10 o'clock news, I just want to be home. And so I switched my major and as I switched, my major was also about the time I got a job in college and I got a job at a bank and the bank happened to pay tuition reimbursement. So I was all in and I was like you know what? I kind of like this, I kind of like being in banking, and it was also about that time my mom made a career change into financial planning and investments and I will never forget. You know, when I was a little girl, I would always ask questions like hey, how much, how much money do you make? You know stuff like that. My mom would always be like Kelly, that's so inappropriate. And then you know, transform, all these years later she's a financial advisor and she's sitting down with me talking about money and how, if you invest money, you'll have you know so much you know when you retire. And so I was like this is really interesting and so I actually ended up staying with this career in banking. I was like I like the financial services industry, this is interesting to me.
03:35
I actually started in sales and got really interested in training, and so then I moved into a training role Eventually. Then actually, I spent a good majority of my time in human resources so recruiting, onboarding, employee relations, overseeing talent development, learning and development programs, and when I was in corporate, a majority of my roles were in HR. And the interesting thing was is I spent a lot of time still talking about money, and it was always fascinating to me that I was like how did I go from like the easiest topic to talk about, which is the weather, to the hardest topic there is to talk about, which is money? But I think that's really where my career started was.
04:10
I loved talking with women about money Because they would come to me and they would say things like gosh, kelly, this job on the posting board looks amazing, but I don't know, maybe I need another degree, maybe any more experience.
04:23
There was just so much hesitation.
04:25
I also noticed that women negotiated less than men, and so, even though the majority of my corporate career was in learning and development and eventually I went to go work for actually another author and a leadership development consulting company doing a lot of leadership training, when I thought about going off on my own and I thought about what is that topic that I could talk about all day long, I always went back to women, coaching, confidence, money, asking for what they're worth, those sorts of things. I told that story very quickly and I skimmed over all the hard parts about leaving corporate America and just jumping off on my own and all the tribulations I had during COVID to get things started, but ultimately it was those foundations that helped me start my own business, where the mission is to help women advance to the rooms where decisions are made, Because I know what it's like to work in a male dominated industry and not see people who look like you in the senior most leadership, and that's really what drove the mission and the conversations that I have with women today.
05:19 - Crystal Ware
Well, there is so much impact there and so many similarities that didn't even jump across to us in our prior conversations. But let me just start with the I love talking about money because, honestly, I love talking about money and I don't often meet other women that seem as excited about talking about money like I do. So if we dive, I always like to talk about a little bit about the psychology of that. And do you think you became more comfortable talking about money because of your household, about how open your parents were? Or do you think you became more comfortable talking about it in your roles and in HR and leadership, where you kind of just had to talk to people about money?
06:06 - Kelli Thompson
Yeah, e all of the above. So when I was little, you talk about money, psychology and money messages. Money messages.
06:13
For me growing up when I was little was don't talk about money. It's not polite to ask people how much they make. This is just kind of a taboo topic and I think a lot of women are raised with those sorts of messages. Maybe we can talk to men about money and how much they earn, because maybe they're expected to be the breadwinner, but we don't talk to women about investments, et cetera, et cetera. And you're right, it wasn't until I was in college and my mom made that career change where she started to recognize the importance of women knowing what's in their savings account, investing for retirement, those sorts of things. And then when I was working for it I worked for an investment firm before I worked for the bank and then I was like, oh, this matters, this matters to be knowledgeable about this sort of stuff. It doesn't need to be scary, it doesn't need to be intimidating. So that was kind of like my first little baby stuff.
06:56
But I will tell you, I got a lot more comfortable talking about money when I was in human resources because all day long all I did was see salaries, and I will never forget being a recruiter and also conducting new hire orientation in my company. I saw salaries all day long. I saw what they were offering people when I would do a new hire orientation. I saw their offer letters and what they'd been hired for. And I remember, too, seeing really big numbers for these executives and I was like whoa. But at some point you're like this is just a number, this is just a number. This is a number I see all day, every day, and I think that's what helped me get a little more comfortable. Talking about money is like this is just a numbers. Day in, day out, this is what the market is paying.
07:43
But I saw how hesitant women were, especially to talk about money, and I want to just lay on this with it's not that even as an entrepreneur, I was super comfortable in the beginning to talk about money. But I think the more I took in clients that continued to be scared to talk about salary rate, their pay, those sorts of things, the more I was like you know what Talking about money should be like talking about the weather? The more that we can talk about money, especially as women, the more we can close the savings gaps. The more we can close the investment gaps, the more that we can close the salary gaps. Just by being comfortable asking for just a little bit more in your job offer, being comfortable, being able to do a little bit of research online to say, am I being paid fairly Just even those tiny steps can just get us a little bit more comfortable talking about money and pay some for everyone, not just women, but their families and their children and everyone else around them.
08:35 - Crystal Ware
Yeah, it's interesting that you say that, because I find that it is. You know, it's not the lack of asking or lack of negotiating all the time, but it really is that comfort level in talking about it. And it's even the smaller things that I don't think people always even understand that if you and I, as friends, are talking one day just in passing and career comes up job movement, you know life we might not be as inclined to talk about it, because I do think men might share a little bit more about what they're actually earning. And then you have those real life data points to go along with the online research that you're doing, and I think that opens up people's minds. And for me, I think you know, I always ask myself how you know, where did it come from? Where did the comfort level?
09:32
Because, like you, you know there was opportunities and times growing up where you know money or other issues would come up. I mean, we did not have a lot of money growing up and so my parents tried to ingrain some different ideas in my head and how we work through those things. But it was in law school actually, where starting pay is posted. I mean it is like in magazines for the top law firms. So it was very easy to say okay, I know where you're going, so I know what you're making. What do you think about this? What do you think about that?
10:05
And I think that started the conversation for me to be much easier in talking to my counterparts about it and I just kind of carried that forward as a young corporate working professional and I would ask people that I worked with, that I knew had been at other places, like maybe they're not going to feel comfortable telling me what they're making or what their bonuses are. You know how much has been paid out of their bonus in the last couple of years here, but they're probably not going to be upset about talking about what their prior jobs were. So I would ask about that, to start collecting more data points. And the more I talked about it, the more easy it was. But I am such a true believer that women have to get more comfortable talking about money and once we're talking about more comfortable in our lives talking about money, that will carry forward into our jobs and that will carry forward into our conversations for advancement and getting promoted and not just getting promoted but getting paid more money.
11:03 - Kelli Thompson
Exactly. Well, you hit on something really, I think, key, and I'll just call it transparency. When you went into your first legal profession, it was transparent what the pay was going to be, and I love where the culture is now that there is so much salary transparency, because so many states have salary transparency laws. I think that that's such a good way to enable this conversation about talking about money, and I get it. It's still weird and it feels awkward and women still have all these messages about. Well, maybe it's greedy to ask I don't want to look pushy what if you know they? They balk at what I ask and I always tell them.
11:38
I'm like, hey, listen, I spent all these years in human resources and I can honestly tell you that for HR people, they literally talk about money all day long. Okay, like it's not, it's lost, it's a lure, it's no longer sexy, it's just part of the job. So I'm like here's the deal. As the other end, being an HR person, I expect you to negotiate. I'm waiting for you to negotiate. I just know that it's going to be part of the process.
12:03
So here's the thing is don't let us down Like we're here to talk about money and I know you feel awkward because it's the first time, but remember, you're talking with somebody who talks about money all day long, who negotiates with people all day long, and so bringing up money, what is the job pay negotiating?
12:19
It's not going to offend them, it's literally just kind of what they do day in, day out and it's become really unsexy for them, just like probably, mastering a pivot table has become unsexy in your job too. You know, it's just kind of one of those things that you do day in, day out. Or for a lawyer maybe, sort of viewing contract law. You're like, you know, it's just my day in, day out, day out thing, and so I think just normalizing that can really help women understand that this is just a normal part of the recruitment or job interviewing process. And I mean I think even too, now that salaries are becoming more transparent, to go to your employer and ask for a salary evaluation hopefully feels a little bit less scary, because there's just so much more market data out there and it just happens all the time.
13:00 - Crystal Ware
So I'm really curious. This is really a curious question. So, given that you've noticed these trends and you've seen people maybe shying away from asking or negotiating more, how did you feel when you knew there was a job offer on the table with a lot of room for potential negotiation and the other party did not negotiate? Like how did you feel as an HR professional?
13:27 - Kelli Thompson
Yeah well, it's interesting to be on the other end of that because, as an HR professional, my job is to always be the go between. It's the go between of the CEO or the leader that I was hiring for saying how are we honestly staying within salary budget, salary bans, what the market is paying? We're not going to go and just offer way outside what the market is paying. So how do we do justice to the organization in terms of making sure that all of that is an integrity? But at the same time too, I just want you to know when you're on the inside and you've had a job open for a while and you find the one, it's kind of like dating A lot of logic goes out the window.
14:11
You start to really want this person and you start to imagine your organization with this person.
14:16
You start to imagine this person sitting in your meetings and so, yes, you are doing right by the organization in terms of trying to stay in those salary bans.
14:23
But you're also like, okay, we need to make sure that we go with an offer to this person, that they're going to say yes, because when you're really invested in someone, it totally is like dating. You're imagining your life with them there, and so I think maybe sometimes people tell a story that we're trying to get the candidate for the least amount of money, but I can't speak for all human resource professionals, but I just know in my own experience that we fell in love with people and we wanted to offer them a number that not only was fair, but that we didn't want them to turn down, because it hurt us just as much when clients our potential candidates turned us down because we started imagining our life with them, and so I think it was always about being that go between, about what's fair for the organization and what's really attractive for the candidate, and we always knew that even though we put out our most attractive offer, that person might negotiate, so we needed to be prepared for that too.
15:16 - Crystal Ware
So for the woman out there who is maybe really in a place of need, maybe they've been let go from a job or they're really unhappy where they are and so they're interviewing and they really need this other job. So there's some fear in there that if I get the job offer and I counter, they're going to walk away. How often have you seen people actually walk away from a candidate who has countered when an offer has been made?
15:46 - Kelli Thompson
Yeah, walk away. I've never seen that. But what I have seen happen is sometimes you know we are offering our top dollar because we want this person. And so lots of times you know, when somebody said, well, actually you know I was really looking for XYZ, I have had to tell people the offer is a stands, we want you Badly, right, we're imagining life with you, but this is our top dollar.
16:10
I've never withdrawn an offer and said no, you can no longer have this job. Like that feels weird and icky. And if that happens to you when you're trying to negotiate, I think I would maybe thank your lucky stars you didn't get that job, because that could be a clue of the culture, of what it's like to work for the organization. But no, I mean, like there were times where I genuinely wanted to and I'm like this is our best and final offer and we hope you take it. We don't want to lose you. But no, I've never been like well, because you asked for more. Like, no, like we're gonna, we're gonna pull the offer, like that. I've never done that. But I want to speak to the other side, though Sometimes we do find ourselves.
16:47
I know I've had a lot of clients in the tech industry who have really struggled in the last year because they've been part of layoffs, and so you know, sometimes they have to do, they have to take a bridge job. You know they need something now, and so I think it's identifying okay, like, yes, you can you have the job that you want, you have the salary that you want, but is there a bridge job, something that you would feel good about saying yes to? What is a minimum salary you would say yes to, or maybe it's, you know, a role in a different industry that would allow you to maybe gain a different perspective or learn more skills while you're kind of looking for, you know the next right job, and so I think it is sometimes totally normal in you know environments where we've, you know, had some layoffs in certain industries, where folks do take a bridge job. That may not be ideal, but it's just, you know, navigating them until they can, the industry can recover and they can get you know what they want next.
17:37 - Crystal Ware
Yeah, absolutely, well, I think that's really helpful because what I hear a lot from people is that fear that if I don't accept what's on the table, they're going to go to candidate B and I feel in reality the chances of that happening are less than 5%.
17:54
I mean, I don't. I, yes, you may not get more, you may not get the counter, but if you don't ask, you never know. And I think it's always worth asking so that you feel fully confident in going forward, that you feel like you've made the best and most informed decision that you've tried to advocate on your behalf and you can make a decision with all the information on the table. And I don't think that people are going to be angry that you asked for more money and say nope, sorry, we have a second backup candidate and we're going to go for them. So I just think hearing that for somebody in your position who's been out there and working with people and working HR for so many years is can allay that fear a little bit of people from just asking that you're not going to get turned down for that. And I do agree the rich job not always ideal, but hey, if you have to pay the bills sometimes, you got to do what you got to do so you know there is no shame in that, absolutely.
18:49 - Kelli Thompson
Yeah, I want to give folks another example. Just this happened recently. So now I'm kind of on the other end where I'm coaching my clients on negotiating, and I had a client in that exact. She was ready to leave her current organization. She found, you know, a company that you know. Of course she fell in love with because, again, you know, we fall in love with the jobs and we start imagining ourselves in the job. But remember there's humans on the other end. We fall in love with you too, and it took, I believe, four rounds of negotiating to get her final package.
19:18
So that's just another thing that I want to normalize.
19:21
Like again, like people who are in human resources are not shocked by negotiation, and if they are, it's probably their first day. So just know that sometimes, especially in these higher level roles, when we're like dealing with like vice president level or senior director and above, it can be normal to go through a few rounds of negotiation to get the base salary correct, perhaps some bonus or upside correct, some. If there's investment or equity in the company, if there's vacation, if you're negotiating like a professional development budget, like it can go a couple rounds and that can be very, very normal. And I saw. I see that now in coaching my clients who are higher level but I also was part of that in human resources where it can take a few rounds to get to the right number and that's just two highly invested individuals, you know, going back and forth with one another and you as a lawyer can speak to that right, like if only all negotiations ended on the first handshake right. Sometimes these things take a couple rounds and that's normal and that's okay.
20:19 - Crystal Ware
I just want to pause and say thank you to all the amazing people tuning in and making this show a success and to share some exciting scoop. I am opening up, for the first time ever, one-on-one coaching. We have two options available the executive edge two week program and the career catalyst six week program, which will use my proprietary earn it framework. If you're ready to propel your professional journey, crush your salary goals or need someone to coach you through a big career decision, let's conquer it together. Limited spots for unlimited empowerment. Links to sign up will be in the show notes and in the link tree on my Instagram and LinkedIn site. See you there. Yes, I love that. I love that because we don't have to rush it Like.
21:12
People always feel that things need to be concluded quickly and wrapped up quickly, but you're you know I always like to look at going into a job. While there are certainly times it can be a three or five year trajectory, let's pretend like it's going to be our job for the next 10 or 20 years, or where this is where we're going to retire from. Get everything you can Like. You're not going to have the opportunity, in most cases, to have some huge jump unless you're taking a massive promotion and even then the jumps are usually not the same as move into a new job. And so I always say, like, get as much as you can ask for everything and that might take time and there is really no rush, you don't need to rush. And I know also, on the other side, I don't really love it when companies are like you know, you got three days to decide. I mean, sometimes you need a little time to reflect and think about it. And I think to your earlier point if a company you know, unless there's a reason like a logical reason why they need a rush answer, I think that probably tells you something too about them. If they're trying to rush it through, like put the pressure on you for some timeline, that may not feel like the right fit for me personally. I just don't love that. In fact, I was rushed one time and they did have a logical reason. So I felt I felt like, okay, I need to give them an answer for these reasons. And then I needed to join for these quickly for these reasons, and I missed some of my stock, my stock vesting, by five days. I left five days too early, but because of everything going on. I mean it all worked out in the end like the bigger picture of the job was, you know, meaningful, but it was like I could have waited five days if I would just take in a little more time to sit back and look at everything I miscalculated and it wasn't a huge number, but that hurt. So I always say don't rush it.
23:07
And to you know, what Kelly just said is so important everybody, you can go back and forth several times. Now I wouldn't advise people to come back with a new, you know, piece of the pie that you're negotiating like all of a sudden. Well, you didn't get this, okay. Well, now I'm gonna ask for something new. That is gonna irritate people. But if you have said these are my points one, two, three, four and you're working on two are good, but two more, you need to go back and forth. Feel okay about that. Folks, it's all right, that is normal. And when we understand what is normal, then we feel more comfortable and more confident continuing to ask and respectfully moving forward. So I think that's really, really great. I wanted to ask about something else really interesting that I saw on your website. You noted something about your enneagram and I was curious if you think that enneagram is significant and can inform people in how to better themselves in career and or how you coach them.
24:15 - Kelli Thompson
Yes, okay. So for folks who might be hearing this word for the first time, what is the enneagram? It's a personality test and it tells you what motivates you, what causes your driving behaviors. It's also going to give you some clues about some basic fears that hold you back. Yes, short answer is I refuse to work with anyone one-on-one who is unwilling to. It's just part of my process, like, if you wanna work with me during your intake call, when we're doing a little Q and A filling each other out. I'm just going to say, like you know, the way that we accelerate results is to take an enneagram assessment, because what I find is that it well, it just speeds things up Because, like, for instance I'll just give you an example I a lot of enneagram eight find me. I'm an enneagram five, for anybody who knows what that means when they're listening, and so that means I am motivated by the need to be capable and competent and to manage my time, resources and energy, and I fear people coming in and depleting that. Do you know your enneagram number, crystal?
25:16 - Crystal Ware
I'm not sure, but it's either a five or eight, and I didn't get all the way through the book, but it is a five or eight also, I'm pretty sure.
25:22 - Kelli Thompson
Okay, so like, let's just for example's sake, I do work with a lot of enneagram eights. Enneagram eights are motivated by the need to be in control and to avoid vulnerability, and so one of the things that they constantly want to avoid is being seen as weak, showing vulnerability in terms of emotions or putting their teams in a vulnerable state, and so they love to take control of lots of things, and so lots of times when my clients come to me, they are leaders. They are exhausted, they are burnt out, they are overwhelmed, and sometimes they've hit the point in their career where they have pushed as hard as they can and now people are no longer listening. This is the challenge of the eight. Well, sometimes, when they start to recognize that they are an eight, they have this aha moment pretty quickly, where they're like I've said yes to all of these things because I am capable, I do get things done very, very quickly, I have a high capacity for work and because I like to be in control, I want to be in charge of all the things.
26:17
Well, they've recognized that they haven't used a lot of discernment in terms of what they've said yes to and what they've said no to, and also sometimes their relationships suffer because they are in such a driving mode that they attempt to connect with people through productive and results versus maybe the more softer and vulnerable sides of relationship building. And so by becoming aware to that like we just accelerate those results so much faster, we can start to recognize oh, I have like this driving need to say yes to things. Well, why is that? Is that true, right? Is that really going to give me the happiness and results that I look for? Is this just a story that I'm believing? And so that's why I love the integrands.
26:56
When we can start to understand why we're doing the things that we do Now, we can make some conscious and intentional changes. You know, it's a little bit different than like the disc or the Myers-Briggs or even the Gallup Strengths Finder. Those might tell you like what kind of car you're driving or what seat you like to sit in. But I love the integrand because it's like well, here's what's under the hood, here's why your car is performing the way it's performing. And when we know why, now we can go in and we can tweak some things, we can make some adjustments so that you're running a little bit better and you're not burning yourself out.
27:22 - Crystal Ware
Yes, I love that. I love that. That is so fascinating, and I'm penciling that in because I feel like we could have a whole nother episode on that. Yes, we could Talk about how this could help people. So, on that, since you just mentioned that, and how it works with leaders and how it may show some vulnerabilities or some other issues that are cropping up for leaders, I was curious do you think that everybody has the capacity to be coached to being a leader, or do you think some people may just be stronger or better suited for individual contributor type roles?
27:58 - Kelli Thompson
I would answer that two ways. I think that if people are willing, they can be coached. Willingness is huge and that's actually one of the conversations that I very frankly have with people before they engage in one-on-one coaching. So sometimes people come to me because their company is recommending them or paying for the coaching. Sometimes people come to me on their own and, lucky for them, their company still pays for the coaching. So just a tip there when we're talking about money, don't be afraid to submit reimbursement for professional development, wink, wink.
28:30
But the question I ask someone is are you willing for me to tell you things that may be uncomfortable, that you may need to change, that your favorite way of doing something may no longer be working for you? Like, are you willing and open to really go inside and look at just some deeply held beliefs or way of doing things and that have me offer you alternate ways of looking at things that might? You might want to throw something at me in the beginning, because I think willingness is key. Like, we can't make anybody a leader if they're not willing. We can't performance management to manage someone into a better performance if they're not willing. We can't coach someone up into a leader if they're not willing.
29:09
Now, that being said, I have coached some leaders who, through the process, they're like you know what I love doing, I love being in the work, I love being in the weeds, I love the gold stars, I love cracking the code and that's okay and like, honestly, they have so much peace in owning the fact that they love the doing because I think in our culture we just expect that everybody should be a manager, and so you know what they do is they say okay because they're so afraid, like if I don't say yes to a promotion, then maybe they'll let me go or something. But you know, sometimes they're coaching People just come back and be like, no, I love being a consultant, I love being an individual contributor, and like they feel so much peace at the end when they just own that and they communicate that to their employer. So you know, that wasn't just a black and white answer, but I think that those are some questions that we need to ask ourselves is is the person willing to be coached? Does the person even want a leadership position? And I think, at the end of the day, that's where I really work with folks is to really get clear on what their unique talents and skills are so they can know. You know what truly lights me up.
30:11
What do I love? Is it coaching people or doing the work?
30:14 - Crystal Ware
Yeah, and I would say, as a young professional, I didn't understand that. I mean, I talked to somebody at my office one time that was, you know, the rock star of the group. The group leader was going to retire and I was asking are you going to take over managing the team? And they were like absolutely not. And I had just baffled. I didn't understand, like that's career advancement, why would you not want to take over the team? But it was very clear he didn't want to listen to complaining, he didn't want to have the interpersonal issues, he didn't want to take what he perceived as a small race to manage all these people and he just wasn't interested in that, even though he was, you know, the sharpest guy at the technical resource and his job is flourished. He's still at the same company and that was almost 10 years ago. So it didn't hurt him. He continued to get raises, he continued to land big clients and it was no problem at all.
31:13
But I also think that it's an issue that we have with large companies in general. I'm just like, what do we do with these people that are thriving, and how, where else can we go with them? I think one of the great things that I have personally seen at really big companies is trying to move people around the departments. That also usually does involve some kind of management, but a lot of times I've seen where they'll ask even kind of push people you know you're really good at this job why don't you get a technical skill in this other department or this other group, which is a great way.
31:47
But I just think by and large at let's call them large companies, I don't know 5,000 employees and above, that's just the next logical step in the way that they incentivize you with money, and I think that's harmful, you know, because it you know it's hard for people to say no to some more money when they feel like there's not another opportunity to get that kind of raise, and it's just not for everybody. So I just think it's always a fascinating discussion of how we are raising up leaders and what kind of culture we have around that. The next thing I wanted to talk about was imposter syndrome, and I'm sure you see this and talk to women about this a lot. But what I want to understand is what your feelings are on, why we are talking about this so much as women and why we don't hear about this that much with men.
32:40 - Kelli Thompson
Yeah, well, let's just go back.
32:42
So the imposter phenomenon was coined in like 1978 by Pauline Clantz and Suzanne Iams, and they wanted to understand why do women who are high achieving feel like they're going to be found out or that all their success is the result of luck or they're not really qualified to be at the rooms that they're in? Okay, so let's just pause 1978. They're doing this study. Who's in the rooms? It's men. It was only four years earlier that women earned the right to have their own money and to pull out their own credit without a male cosign. Okay, so, like bracket that in your mind. That study came out four years after women could like borrow their own money. They were not in the meeting room so of course, they were feeling this way. You know, I think the term has become more common, it's become more popular, and I write in the book closing the confidence gap that this is a both and issue. In fact, this is how I kind of opened the book, because I titled the book before I actually knew that there was a study called the confidence gap that came out of Wharton, and what they said was they wanted to understand why. Why do men just more easily advocate. Why do men not seem to struggle with this sort of self doubt? And so what they did was they had they pulled in a group and they gave this group a standardized test and they did not tell them how they did on the test, but they told this group. They say, based on how you think you did on the test, you're supposed to go advocate for your performance in this potential role in this hypothetical company. Well, as we can all imagine, guess who did a better job advocating for themselves and their perceived test performance? Guess who did a little better on the test? The women. And so what the researchers said was well. Well, maybe if we just start telling women they did better than their confidence will follow suit. And I actually argued that's not going to cut it.
34:24
And in closing the confidence gap, I say to see more women achieving and advocating in their full potential, we need more women in the rooms for decisions are made, and that includes in government, that includes at the top of organizations. Right now, only 28% of C suit positions are women and research shows that the more we see women in leadership positions using their own ways and means and personalities of self advocacy, the more tolerant we are of many different leadership styles, and so I say I like to call it imposter feelings. This is not a syndrome, we are not sick. Imposter feelings, I think, are caused twofold, it's a both hand. Yes, it's caused when people have experienced more racial discrimination, when they don't see themselves in the rooms where decisions are made, when they work in high performance cultures will brilliance is prized above all other all else. So, yeah, the cause is systemic. However, this is a very real feeling and I don't. There's some articles out that are like stop telling women they have imposter syndrome. Okay, fair enough. Yes, there are some systemic causes, but people feel this deeply, they feel what it feels like to be like oh, I can't apply for that job, I'm not qualified, I need, you know, one more certification, or I'm in this room, I'm about to give this presentation, I'm going to be found out Like I want to honor that experience. So it's like how do we support women while also recognize that there are some systemic changes that need to be made, and that's what the book addresses the systemic changes in terms of you know the distribution of labor, how we delegate and who we delegate to unpaid workload of women. You know likeability, biases, gender pay gaps. That's all things we need to fix.
35:57
However, like what I argue in one of the chapters and what I talk about a lot with my clients is, is everyday doubt being relabeled as imposter syndrome, because Dow is a normal, healthy human emotion. Dow is something we feel anytime that we edge our comfort zone. Of course you're going to fill out before you speak up. Of course I'm going to fill out before I hop on a podcast. Of course I am going to fill out when I'm applying for a job. Of course I'm going to feel those jitters that night before I start my first job. But let's just recognize that doubt is normal and healthy and not all doubt is imposter syndrome.
36:33
I kind of define imposter syndrome as, like, when doubt becomes so persistent, it's self sabotage and so it's really. How do we just start to normalize doubt? Because I've interviewed leaders like Indra Nui, who's the CEO of Pepsi, and I asked her about her you know, rise from Motorola to Pepsi and I'm like, did you ever experience doubt with all these big promotions? And she's like, oh yeah, every day, all the time, like she just was like, yeah, it's normal. So it's not that great leaders don't feel doubt. It's that they've learned how to lead and advance in their careers while also feeling doubt, and so I really encourage. Yes, we need to change things systemically, but I really think we just need to get comfortable with the while. Also, I can advocate while also feeling doubtful. I can ask for more salary. While also feeling nervous, I can go for this job, but also wondering if I'm a little bit qualified and like that's where the power lies in working with this very normal, healthy human emotion.
37:19 - Crystal Ware
Yeah, yeah, I mean it's really. I mean you'll probably just find, I know not to throw out numbers for everybody that have different basis, you know, because that can be dangerous but just as a round number. You know, I was talking to somebody recently who has been working at the same company for over 15 years, is highly qualified in a great middle management job at a company that has over 50,000 employees. Okay, she's making $100,000. And I said that severely underpaid and she just couldn't fathom having the confidence or the experience of saying I need to get a 20 to 30% raise. She literally could not fathom that and I said I promise you, I have seen the numbers, I have worked with many people, I've talked to many people. You are significantly underpaid for what you are doing, the experience you have and where you are.
38:18
But her personality, her experiences and I'm gonna say probably the bosses and leaders and mentors that she has had have not promoted her in the way that she needs to be promoted, to be supported in that way, or have the belief that that's possible. And we were talking through some scenarios and it's just 100% imposter syndrome and I couldn't help but think that if I was sitting with a male counterpart along the way. One, it just wouldn't be as likely that somebody would be in this position as a man, and two, they just don't have the same feelings and we're not talking to them about those things, and so sometimes I think it's really hard to balance that out, like the differences in men and women, the genetic differences and how we think about things differently and what our experiences are. But it's very clear that men are not experiencing the imposter feelings in the way that women are.
39:16 - Kelli Thompson
Even when they're the same.
39:17 - Crystal Ware
Yeah, and I think that's hard to reconcile.
39:21 - Kelli Thompson
And then also people of color have traditionally been underpaid, and sometimes I think it's like we have this mindset that like, well, if I just work hard enough, people will recognize us. But this is where I wanna link back in the Enneagram. So if this were my client, I would know what their Enneagram number is and I would tell you that there are nine reasons why people may not be asking. Or people may not be maybe playing small, and so like, let's just say, if it's an Enneagram one who wants to be good, right and perfect, they may not wanna tarnish this image of perfection of like I'm the good little worker who's never gonna ruffle any feathers. For Enneagram two, who wants love and approval, it's like, oh gosh, if I ask, people are gonna be so upset with me, right. For Enneagram three, they may wanna avoid failure. If I ask and they say, no, I'm gonna, just it's gonna be a total failure, I mean, and so on and so forth.
40:09
And so I think that that's why, like really understanding what motivates you can number one, motivate you to take action, just like you did. You provided the data and the research. But then, two, going inward to say, okay, what is keeping me from asking? Because you're right, this goes back into that both hand thing. There are company cultures and structures that are unfair, that have probably caused her some you know issues around not asking. Maybe she asked in the past for other things and that wasn't, you know, rewarded well. So it's like how do we address those things? But also like let's own our part in that and to say, okay, what is personally holding me back? And you know, what do I need to do differently? What do I need to believe about myself differently to get what I deserve Absolutely?
40:51 - Crystal Ware
What else do you wanna share about the book that would help people get a little feel for what you talk about in there.
40:57 - Kelli Thompson
Yeah, well, I kind of gave a little highlight. You know it's called closing the confidence gap and I'm gonna tell you what it's not. I think a lot of people see it and they pick it up and they're like, ooh, this is gonna be full of just confidence tips and, you know, empty platitudes and it's not. It is heavy in storytelling. It has real examples of my own life. I'm not just telling you this stuff because I figured it out. I literally wrote the book I needed to read. I wrote the book because I struggled with confidence. I landed myself in wrong relationships and you know, I landed myself sometimes in unfair work positions because I struggled with it. And so it's not just empty platitudes. In fact, I mean, there's really personal stories in there about, like, my divorce and how I called off a wedding, and a lot of that was just because, you know, I was just totally out of alignment. What I even stood for in my life. And that's where I start.
41:50
The book is to really help women define what they stand for. It's just, you know, it is core values work. But when we know what we value and we know what we stand for, then we won't fall for anything anymore and like giving that, like firm grounding, I think can really help us, you know, boost our confidence, because now we have a clear picture of what we should say yes and no to, based on what we stand for and who we want to be in the world. And so, you know, there is a lot of that kind of deeper work in there as well, in terms of getting clear on what your unique talents are, how, what your unique approaches to the world, like what happens to your energy and how, if you start paying attention to your energy, I think, if you clues as to what your best skills and genius zones are, and when you can start to get clear about what you offer the world, what you stand for, you know, those unique things about you that you know are assets, not liabilities, it can really provide a lot of confidence. And so I do then talk about, like you know, the unpaid workload of women, how women often at work get more non-provodable tasks, and so how do you set boundaries, how do you shift from doer to leader so that you can accelerate in your organization without getting overburdened?
42:52
I talk a lot about, you know, how do you trust yourself, because I think, as a woman leader, we're gonna get lots of advice. I still get lots of advice and I even run my own business. I got some well, you can't see my fingers quote unquote well-meaning advice three weeks ago and thank goodness I have a filter for that by, like, recognizing how my body responds to that, or my values or my skills to be like you know what. 10 years ago I would have chased that advice and be like, oh he's right, I should totally do that. Now I'm like, no, you know. So it just gives you some of those tools and those filters for recognizing what is happening systemically. But here's some actual tools and strategies that you can use to succeed in spite of it to be more clear about who you are, to own your unique skills and talents, to trust yourself and really take the brave next steps that matter to you.
43:38 - Crystal Ware
I love that, and what I hear, kelly, is that this book is full of the really important things and the takeaways for what somebody has lived, learned and loved Three Ls that bring real, real meaning for guidance and mentorship through the book and not just, as you said, the platitudes and talking points that you could just Google and so when you come from a place of experience and value and alignment, it just comes across differently. So everybody, check the book out. This will be brilliant, life-changing. We're still early in 2024 and moving towards our goals and what is in store, and I believe I truly believe that this year can change everybody's life because at any time we can make small changes that are going to shift and by the end of the year, our life is going to look completely different. It's going to look so much better. Anybody and everybody can accomplish that in one year. Okay, so keep going, keep staying motivated. Thank you so much for all this, kelly. I we really have to get you back.
I have so much more some notes and questions, and you can find Kelly at Instagram, kelly Ray Thompson, and LinkedIn, kelly Ray Thompson. I don't know if you can see my connections on LinkedIn, but if so, she is on there and otherwise it will be in the show notes. So thank you so much. If you need coaching, if you need guidance or an amazing speaker, kelly is your girl. So thank you everybody. Remember you are made for more.
Keep getting clear on what your goals are, what you want out of life, and keep going. It's up to you, and the rest of what you're looking for is out there, all right until next time. Thanks so much for tuning in. If you want to create a career you love, get the salary you deserve and build the confidence to live life on your own terms, sign up for my free newsletter, where you'll get actionable tips to raise your worth, build your wealth, create freedom and create a life you absolutely love. Head over to crystalwaremediacom to sign up or click the link in the show notes and join thousands of others making their dreams a reality. Whether you are just embarking on the journey or well on your way, the worthwhile newsletter has something for you. See you next week.