Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Technology's daily show (formerly the Technology Brothers Podcast). Streaming live on X and YouTube from 11 - 2 PM PST Monday - Friday. Available on X, Apple, Spotify, and YouTube.
You're watching TVPN. Today is Thursday, 10/23/2025. We are live from the TVPN UltraDome.
Speaker 2:The temple of technology,
Speaker 3:the fortress of finance, capital of capital. Did
Speaker 1:you see this graphic in the Wall Street Journal, the business and finance section talking about the circularity of AI deals? And I thought it was just a beautiful image that reflected nature. It looks like a conch shell.
Speaker 3:Looks like a conch.
Speaker 1:It looks like a
Speaker 3:conch, Max.
Speaker 1:Right? It looks fantastic. I was I was laughing to myself about Satya Nadella just being like, yeah. I was into circular deals with OpenAI like six years ago actually. So, Larry Ellison, you're not, yeah, you're not as cool.
Speaker 1:Like like, don't take a victory lap. I was doing crazy complicated deals with OpenAI back in 2019. But, you know, we've talked enough about OpenAI in this show. It's quickly turning into the OpenAI show. We have someone from OpenAI coming on the show later today, actually, to talk about the browser.
Speaker 1:Like, I am excited for that. But we gotta go a different direction. We gotta talk about some other stuff. And so I want to talk about how we name companies, how we build brands in Silicon Valley, and I want Jordy to take the lead on breaking down his thesis for the uninspired company of Silicon Valley. But first, I wanna tell you about ramp.com.
Speaker 1:Time is money. Save both. Easy use corporate cards. Bill Pay. Got it.
Speaker 1:Whole lot more. All in one place. Jordy Hayes, you have the floor, sir.
Speaker 3:Thank you. This is an idea, or or an essay I've been thinking about for a while. Finally got around to writing it.
Speaker 4:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:And, yeah, generally, I felt like the timing was right. The browser company's acquisition closed this week. Yep. Six years ago, they started the company. So I'll just read through what I wrote and then we can chat about it.
Speaker 3:So six years ago, the browser company of New York was born. This week, its acquisition by Atlassian closed. Regardless of how you feel about the product or the ultimate acquisition price, it's undeniable that Josh Hirsch and the team brought an incredibly fresh perspective to what a startup brand could look and feel like.
Speaker 1:Six years is kind of crazy. I'd I'd I feel like I've found out about the browser company, like, two years ago, maybe three years ago. What a grind. Congratulations to the team over there.
Speaker 3:Overnight success.
Speaker 1:Seriously.
Speaker 3:The name, the brand design, etcetera, were all incredibly thoughtful, but they weren't new. Roughly a hundred and fifty years ago, was Standard Practice to name a company like they did. The Prudential Insurance Company of America founded
Speaker 1:Standard Practice sounds like a good name for a company. That sounds like a real name.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Standard Oil Company of New York founded in 1911. That was a spin out. Yeah. The Edison Electric Illuminating Company of New York founded in 1880.
Speaker 3:And there was a bunch of others over history. Yeah. Again, this was just like the way that you named a company. Yeah. Weren't trying think of back then, you weren't trying to think of like acute.com.
Speaker 3:No. It was why don't we just name it what it is? And so what I'd
Speaker 1:like Name it what it is or name it who we are. Goldman Sachs. Morgan Stanley.
Speaker 3:So what was what was amazing about this naming convention, this isn't an essay, is just like how explicitly clear it is what the company does. Yeah. The Edison Electric Illuminating Company of New York. Yep. I can imagine what they do.
Speaker 3:Yep. It's good marketing.
Speaker 1:Pretty pretty simple.
Speaker 3:The browser company of New York was a perfect name for a specific reason. Juxtaposing a 150 year old naming convention with a modern tool such as the web browser was an incredible way to stand out and signal to the world exactly what their mission was and that they would be bringing inspired thinking to the category. The browser company's name, brand, and marketing materials were so effective that they catalyzed a wave of companies to adopt the same naming convention. Between the browser company's emergence and their eventual exit, I'd estimate that somewhere between 50 to a 100 companies adopted this type of legacy naming convention. So Mhmm.
Speaker 3:Naming a web browser company, the browser company of New York, signaled this sort of original thinking. And the problem is that the second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, you know, etcetera, company that use this sort of convention basically does the exact opposite. Right? It signals like, okay. I saw somebody do something cool in my in my industry.
Speaker 3:I'm gonna do I'm gonna do the cool thing
Speaker 1:as well. The genericization, the making that that whole pattern generic, like, I I I was not tapped in. Clearly, I I did not know that the browser company in New York was six years old. I found out about it a couple years ago, and there are people that probably found out about it after they found out about five copycats. And so in their mind, they're just like, oh, the browser company in New York, that's one of those copycats that Yeah.
Speaker 3:But quickly it quickly became an anti signal.
Speaker 1:Totally. Totally. I completely agree.
Speaker 3:So personally, I'm not automatically bearish on the companies that are that are kind of like, you know, a little too inspired on this front. Yeah. But I think a lot of the people are make are kind of missing what made it great. Right? And so, at least one of these companies, the Interaction Company of California, managed to break through the noise and deliver a truly novel consumer AI product experience.
Speaker 3:But ironically, they did this under the poke.com brand This is a great lore. Poke came out. They had an incredible launch. Very cool, you know, sort of novel consumer AI experience. Yeah.
Speaker 3:And so my my point here is they should probably just abandon that original name and just run with Poke because it's super Yeah. Memorable and and I think This is what Instagram did.
Speaker 1:Right? Instagram was bourbon originally. Yep. And then once Instagram hit, they were like, we have a new brand. Yeah.
Speaker 1:We have a cool thing. And then, of course, everyone copied Instagram. Interestingly, Instacart copied Instagram's name and it worked. Yep. So, yeah, not always a total anti signal Yeah.
Speaker 1:Even if it's
Speaker 3:yeah. Yeah. So in defense of copycat branding, naming startups is really hard. Every founder's gone through this. There's only so many domain names.
Speaker 3:There's some only so many English words that mean something, and there's just so many companies being created. It's quite challenging. Another defense and and kind of like a misinterpretation, you know, people misinterpret this quote that's attributed to Picasso which is good artists steal, great great artists good artists copy, great artists steal. Picasso said
Speaker 1:that originally? I know that there's a book
Speaker 3:There's a variety of people that have like, you know, said it throughout history, stolen remade it. So funny.
Speaker 1:He like legitimately copied it word from word for his direct rival, like another painter.
Speaker 3:So, yes. Take taken literally, if somebody just says, okay, they they're gonna see, like, okay. This is good. I'm gonna do the good thing
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:That someone else is doing. But a better interpretation of it and my interpretation of it is that you're that you're you're better off, like, stealing from the past, but, like, recombining, inspiration from a variety of sources to create your own unique style and approach.
Speaker 1:Right? So you continue, you know, great good streamers stream great streamers restream with restream.com. One livestream, 30 plus destinations. Continue, Jordy. Sorry.
Speaker 3:So yes. So the browser company hit so hard Yeah. Because there was this crazy juxtaposition, I and don't think anyone had done it before. So it got this amazing response. Right?
Speaker 3:It felt like fresh and new. Yeah. But after they executed against it so perfectly and so loudly, right, you can debate like, you know, was the product truly a hit? You know, that that's up for debate. But the brand was
Speaker 1:The brand punched their
Speaker 3:attention. The brand, went through. So, if you just go after if you just sort of like clone Yep. To me, it signals that you're in a rush, which I think is fair. A lot of companies are in a rush.
Speaker 3:You don't value naming, which is concerning. I think names matter a lot. Didn't wanna spend the time to find a great domain, which is like fine. Again, a lot of founders like don't have a a broker like, our buddy Rob. It's snagged.
Speaker 3:But, it it also could signal you aren't seeking out inspiration from outside of the tech bubble, which I think is concerning. The world's a big place. You should go go outside, of of our little bubble. And then you didn't seek out influencer advice from people that that understand the value of naming, know how to acquire great domains. Because you can go to founders that have been in the game for ten years and they will have a domain guy.
Speaker 3:They'll give you, like, the playbook. They might even have a domain name lying around that's great or you could talk to a VC and they're like, oh, this portfolio company Yeah. Was using this name ten years ago. You should pick it up and use it.
Speaker 1:So They might even have a billboard for you. Yeah. I've been on adquick.com. Out of home advertising made easy and measurable. Say goodbye to the headaches of out of home advertising.
Speaker 3:Couldn't have said it better myself. Yeah. And so so in the in this case, like, browsers were all modern. Right? You had Netscape Yep.
Speaker 3:Edge, Chrome. Yep. And so it was juxtaposed, but it was also counter positioned. Right? And, of course, this this the browser company naming Saga, it's not isolated incident.
Speaker 3:I I brought I brought it back to Linear. Linear launched in 2019. The product design, the website was so good that people were just like, I'll take one, please. One linear brand, please. One one linear dashboard, please.
Speaker 3:I even I even talked to a founder that that like, earlier this year and he was like, yeah. We're our our design our website and products is gonna look exactly like linear.
Speaker 1:I was like That admittedly?
Speaker 3:I was just like It's insane. Yeah. There's so many I mean, it's great, but, like, you know, there's probably something better if you just really thought hard and, like, spent the time to think through, like, what what could this be? And so so anyways, I think, like, copying great design signals that you don't value design, in my view.
Speaker 1:Yep. Yeah. That's good to
Speaker 3:And so what this comes down to is that I believe the tech industry needs to learn how to copy or steal from outside the industry. Even today, every AI company wants to be the apple of AI. I think you see this in some of the campaigns that that they're doing, which are good campaigns, but sometimes they feel like, okay, you guys went to an ad agency and said, give me one nineties Apple ad, please. Yep. Give me, you know, give me one eighties Apple ad, please.
Speaker 3:And so I said, it's counterintuitive, but I bet the Apple of AI will probably not build an iconic generational brand by trying to emulate Apple advertisements from the eighties and nineties. They'll do it by being themselves or said differently, stealing from the past, a variety of sources, and a variety of categories to create their own unique style and approach. It's perfectly respectable and even fair to take inspiration from obvious sources and industries. We at TVPN have been vocal about being inspired by ESPN, SportsCenter, Complex, and others. But the key is that we took that inspiration and applied it to an area, TAC, that none of those groups had ever played in.
Speaker 1:Right?
Speaker 3:So we weren't we weren't copying SportsCenter to build a sports podcast. Right? So I said, if you're starting a company today, I urge you to take inspiration from the outside world and other industries and avoid the trap of becoming an uninspired company. So happy to get this out there. And, again, I love I truly love, I feel lucky to love the the hunt for a great domain.
Speaker 1:For sure. Yeah. I'm I'm I'm thinking of the different like, when when you when you say, you know, every AI company wants to be the apple of AI, that feels like OpenAI and Anthropix most recent campaigns to me.
Speaker 3:Well, yeah. And even OpenAI's Even sort of like OpenAI's more likely. Right?
Speaker 1:That that didn't feel that didn't feel apple to me. I don't know. Like, the all the pixelated, like, the dots and stuff, that felt a little apple. I don't know. That didn't that didn't really that didn't really, like like, spring out to me like like that.
Speaker 1:But I was I I was just thinking back on, like like, you know, like, the DeepMind documentary, on the Lisa Doll match, the AlphaGo series that culminates in Move 37. Like, that was part of the brand building. And it's odd because, typically, I think they paid for it themselves. Like like, typically paying for someone to make a documentary about you as opposed to just, like, waiting for someone to make the documentary about you. It looks like it gets a lot of criticism as like, oh, this is just marketing.
Speaker 1:But at least in that particular documentary, I think a lot of people have watched it, and I think it was very effective marketing. And I think it actually built DeepMind's brand as in that moment. And I and I feel like if you could turn back the clock, OpenAI would have really benefited from having a paying for a documentary, on the DOTA match that they did or, you know, some of the other initiatives that they were working on during the OpenAI Gym, the original reinforcement learning stuff that they were doing. Because the the AlphaGo documentary you've seen it. Right, Tyler?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. Many times. Many times?
Speaker 2:Well, probably like two or three times.
Speaker 1:Two or three times. Yeah. Yeah. And so, like, that that's how you
Speaker 3:He didn't just watch. He studied. Yeah.
Speaker 1:He sat your ass down and listened. Isn't that how
Speaker 3:Did you did you smoke a did you smoke a heater
Speaker 2:Probably a lot. Heat a civilian smoke.
Speaker 1:But but, I I feel like that was, like, the introduction to Demis, and it really, like, takes you through because it opens with him talking about video games, talking about artificial intelligence, and, like, it felt like it built him up as a character in many ways. Like, more than just him going on podcasts.
Speaker 2:Yeah. That's probably true. It was also my it was my introduction to the game of Go Yeah. And I've since become a a big Go player.
Speaker 1:You play Go a lot?
Speaker 2:A fair amount. I mean, none of my friends like Uh-huh. No one knows how to play Go so I always have to teach them. Yeah. But I've gotten a lot of my friends into Go.
Speaker 1:That's But I
Speaker 2:yeah. I mean, was definitely the first time like Demis was really like I think a lot of people watch that who are outside of tech.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. No. That makes sense. Well, before we move on, let me tell you about getbezel.com.
Speaker 1:Shop over 26,500 luxury watches fully authenticated in house by Bezel's team of experts. Dwarkash Patel has dropped an essay with a friend of his. And Tyler, you had some analysis on this. Did you get a chance to read through his thoughts on the a AGI build out with Romeo Dean?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So so basically, the main point of the article is is they're trying to address this question that or address this thing that that same element said, which is that they want at at some point, they wanna be doing basically a gigawatt in infrastructure per week.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:New, you know, infra or
Speaker 1:per week.
Speaker 2:So it's like, okay. How how do get there? What are the bottlenecks? Yep. Like, how does this actually work out?
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:So so there's a couple things he points out. The first thing is there's this idea of, like, the the fab CapEx kind of overhang. Mhmm. So if you compare, like, NVIDIA revenue to the the CapEx of fabs Mhmm. You'll see that, like, the revenue kind of, like, dwarfs this.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:So there's there's, like, actual specific numbers, but it's something like this past year of NVIDIA revenue is more than the past, like, three years of TSMC's entire CapEx. Yes. And and if you go up the stack, if you're looking at, like, ASML or Applied Materials, like, all of those that are kind of just, like, a a bit kind of lower level than than TSMC, you see that NVIDIA revenue basically accounts for, like, the past twenty five years of r and d and capex of
Speaker 1:Yeah. Those
Speaker 2:So basically, point is that if NVIDIA, like, really wanted to, they could basically fund, like, all these new fabs without, like, you know they they just, like, increase the margins for these companies by by a ton, but they could just, like, spend and just have these fabs, grow massively?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So this the the I mean, this doesn't feel like an answer to the question that most people are are asking, which is about, like, the circularity of deals, the build out of the actual data centers. I haven't heard a lot of people, like, nervous about the nature of the fab build out. No one's saying, like, oh, TSMC is over their skis. Like, it's it's it's Oracle that people are worried about.
Speaker 1:Right? And so, the fact that, TSMC is not overbuilding because the, you know, 6,000,000,000 in CapEx turns into 200,000,000,000 in revenue, that feels like, wow. Like, congrats to TSMC. Like, they're in a safe place. They can basically go to the market, go to OpenAI and all the hyperscalers and say, like, oh, you guys wanna put up a trillion dollars in in spend or revenue?
Speaker 1:Like, we got you. You're not gonna put us out of business if if you don't deliver, which is great for them. It just feels like TSMC's in a really strong position.
Speaker 2:Yes. Yeah. That that's true. But Yeah. I think Dorkesh is saying, like, they're under building if we wanna be on these, like, timelines.
Speaker 2:Right? Oh. So, like, what if we wanna be doing, a gigawatt per week, like, how do we actually get there? So I like this. Way more.
Speaker 1:So Yeah. This is good because it's basically, like, what is the shape of the overbuild? What is the shape of the build out? And where you don't wanna wind up is just, like, some sort of, like, fat overbuilding, like, data centers, and you're building, like, these massive data centers, but then you haven't built any nuclear power plants, and then you also haven't built any fabs. And so you have, like, a bunch of data centers with nothing to put in them and nothing to power.
Speaker 3:Like Yeah. And and the
Speaker 2:fabs are really important because chips are something like 70% of the actual, like, CapEx cost of a data center. Like, they're just there's so much, like, compared to power or Yes. But everything else.
Speaker 1:I mean, I I I wonder I wonder how much they're how much they're rate limiting on the actual build out. Like, it seems like it seems like the the the some of the narrative has been, there's there's a much longer lead time for energy infrastructure than there is for TSMC line time scale up fabs. But, also, I haven't actually seen anyone break down like this what it takes to 10 x production at TSMC because I don't know where their capacity is. Are they are they close to max capacity? Is TSMC running twenty four seven already, and they haven't and they don't have any other facilities?
Speaker 2:I I think probably, but Yeah. What what Drokosch is saying is that, like, their CapEx generally is just very small
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 2:Compared to, like, what it could be compared to obviously, NVIDIA is, like, way higher, but, like, if NVIDIA
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, make some deals here, like, there could be a massive increase in CapEx. Then he says, well, maybe that won't happen with TSMC, but maybe, you know, with the Intel deals, like, is kind of what is is being in is being done.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. Well, interesting. So he says, further up the supply chain, a single year of NVIDIA's revenue almost matched the past twenty five years of total r and d and CapEx from the five largest semiconductor equipment companies combined. So you take ASML, Applied Materials, Tokyo Electron, SK Hynix, Micron, TSMC.
Speaker 1:You add all of those together. It only takes, like, a year or two to actually pay for that just with what NVIDIA is actually producing because of because of the margins, and the actual ROI on the CapEx. The reason we're emphasizing this point is that if you were to naively speculate about what would be the first upstream component to constrain long term AI CapEx growth, you wouldn't talk about copper wires or transformers. You'd start with the most complicated things that humans have ever made, which are the fabs that make semiconductors. So every time you see someone saying, oh, the you know, worry about the transformers and the energy infrastructure, it it is potentially more bottlenecked by the fabs.
Speaker 1:We were stunned to learn that the cost of these the cost to build these fabs pales in comparison to how much people are already willing to pay for AI hardware. NVIDIA could literally subsidize entire new fab notes if they wanted to. That's interesting that we're not seeing those types of, like, deals. Like, I like, it says we don't think they will actually directly do this or will they, wink wink, Intel deal, but shows how much of a fab CapEx overhang there is. For the last two decades, data center construction basically co opted the power infrastructure left over from USD industrialization.
Speaker 1:That's where you get, like, you know, the the the the Memphis site was like a former washing machine factory or something like that. And they had a lot of power because they need a bunch of machines to move all the different washing machine parts in there to build the washing machines. But, of course, that actual business has moved overseas, and so Elon was able to go in and say, give me that power. Google's first operated data center was across a former aluminum plant. Hyperscalers are used to repurposing the power equipment from old steel mills and automotive factories.
Speaker 1:This is honestly a compelling ode to capitalism. Let's hear it for compelling odes to capitalism. As soon as one sector became more relevant, America was quickly and efficiently able to co op the previous one's carcass, but we are now in a different regime. Not only are hyperscalers building new data centers at a much bigger scale than before, they are building them from scratch and competing for the same inputs with each other, not least of all, not least of which is skilled labor.
Speaker 3:Ryan says they should rebrand as the semiconductor company of Taiwan. To their
Speaker 1:credit, it's
Speaker 3:still the Taiwan semiconductor manufacturing company. But, yeah, flip it.
Speaker 1:That's hilarious.
Speaker 3:Flip it for the modern era and just copy the browser company.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Well, if you're, looking to invest in one of these companies, go to public.cominvesting for those that take it seriously. Multi asset investing, trusted by millions. Maybe you're deploying $2,000,000,000,000 in AI CapEx a year. Someone else needs producing be producing 2,000,000,000,000 worth of all other data center components, not just the chips.
Speaker 1:The people upstream data centers, the company is producing everything from copper wire to turbines to transformers to switch gear. We need to build more factories. The problem is that those factories have to be amortized over many a, a many decade lifespan. And at usual margins, those factories are only worth building if this AI AI demand lasts for ten to thirty years. There's an interesting so he goes into some of the the gas turbine manufacturing stuff and ARR projections.
Speaker 1:The really interesting takeaway is the final chart on AGI timelines, the distribution. Where is this? Electricity. Here we go. So not only does China generate more than twice the electricity than u than The US, but that generation has been growing more than 10 times faster than in The United States.
Speaker 1:The reason this is significant is that the power build out can now be directed to new data center sites. China State Grid could collaborate with Alibaba, Tencent, and Baidu to build capacity where it is most helpful for their AI build out and avoid the zero sum race in The United States between different hyperscalers to take over capacity that already exists.
Speaker 3:China will basically run the experiment of we have worse chips, but we have, like, an incredible amount of energy. Yep. So efficiency doesn't really matter.
Speaker 1:Yep. And so the, basically, his like, he sums all this up in this chart, which is the probability density. Like, the probability of The US hitting, hitting AGI over time and the probability of China hitting AGI over time. And the conclusion is basically, like, if AGI is coming soon, America's good because we have a head start in the race, but we're running slower. China has a slow start, but they're running faster.
Speaker 1:And so if AGI comes in 2035, China has a higher probability of it emerging there. I guess the question is, like, how bad is it to be a year behind? How bad is it to be, you know, just just six months behind in in if AGI emerges? If you believe in, like, the fast takeoff of, like, once it's there, you know, it's like the immediate wind condition, you better be advocating for some American electricity.
Speaker 3:But Yes. There was a there was a reference to Tyler Cowen's post from 2023. Do not underestimate elasticity of supply. This was in the context of energy. So Tyler's post said said, when I first read about the discovery of a vast new deposit of lithium in a volcanic crater along the Nevada Oregon border, I can't say that I was surprised, not because I know anything about geology, but because as an economist, I'm a strong believer in the concept of elasticity of supply.
Speaker 3:Now about elasticity of supply in which economists tend to have more faith than do most people, time and again over the centuries, economists have have observed that resource shortages are often remedied by discovery, innovation, and conservation, all induced by market prices. To put it simply, if a resource is scarce, there's an upward pressure on its price, new supplies will usually be found. So you can, you know, reference this with the kind of people's energy concerns around AI. The big question is, like, where is the energy gonna come from? For all these new data centers and planned CapEx, but Tyler Cowen's willing to bet that we will discover new sources of energy.
Speaker 3:We'll figure out how to make more gas turbines. There was some reporting. I think there's already, like, an immense amount of pressure on the Colossus data center Yeah. Development in terms of I I saw Wired was posting a video. I sent it to you yesterday.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It
Speaker 3:was Like, somebody using this, like, thermal camera or some type of camera could to view how much gas was being, like, let off. And it was just, like, clearly, they're just have have all these gas turbines firing.
Speaker 1:That was the there was some good stuff in in in that video, but that was the dumbest part because it was, like, Elon has been publicly saying, like, this is the biggest data center with the most energy.
Speaker 3:Yeah. It was it was framed as a goth.
Speaker 1:Bombshell.
Speaker 3:Yeah. It was framed
Speaker 5:as a We pointed
Speaker 1:the camera at it, and it's big. It's big. It's the big it's bigger than everything else. It's like Yeah. It was
Speaker 3:framed as a gong gotcha,
Speaker 1:but Elon is saying that. Elon is extremely proud of how much energy this thing uses. He actually posts the exact energy figures constantly. But I did think that, we have Sagar and Jetty from Breaking Points joining the show tomorrow, and I think that he lays out a really good case for, like, what public sentiment is like. And you can see in that video, there's a politician from Memphis who is like, woah.
Speaker 1:Woah. Woah. Like, if you guys are gonna come here and build a massive data center in Memphis, like, you have to make sure that the water stays clean, that we don't wind up with really polluted skies. We don't wanna be Beijing. We don't wanna be, you know, some industrial capacity.
Speaker 1:Like, we, some industrial hub. Like, we've lived through that. We've seen, like, you know, Detroit was at one point dirty. The industry sort of left, but, like, we we want, like, a more modern, futuristic, eco friendly. It's not to be, like, a total decelerating, like, tree hugger.
Speaker 1:It's just like, let's not give each other cancer, people. Like, there's probably a way around this. And so I think the the actual discussion is gonna get super, super heated, and I think Sagar is correct, and we'll unpack this with him more tomorrow. The discussion will get extremely heated, and it will turn into these extreme ends of, like, you want us you don't wanna cure cancer with AI. And, like, you wanna kill everyone with, you know, this, you know, this insane pollution that's coming out of whatever natural gas turbine.
Speaker 3:Surprised we haven't seen somebody, like, protesting on top of a data center yet. Yeah. You think somebody would have scaled one and and
Speaker 1:I they also People used
Speaker 3:to do this with with trees. Right? They they would just climb to the top of a tree. Move that. Gonna get cut down.
Speaker 1:This happened in Anthropic. Right? But for doom reasons, not for, not for Environmental. Environmental reasons. And so there's, like, you know, a very clear alliance that should form.
Speaker 1:Right?
Speaker 3:Happened briefly. He got he was hunger striking. He got hungry.
Speaker 1:He was there for a a couple days. But, I mean, no one debates that there are tons of AI doomers that, like, are actively protesting the lab in one way or another. Like, I would put Eliezer Udakowski's new book, if we build it if they if anyone builds it, we all die. That's what it's called. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I would put that in, like, the the AI protest canon. And it would be interesting to see if there's, like, a team of rivals that emerges with Eliezer and then the just the folks on the ground who are like, look. I actually think that AI is slop. I don't think it's gonna be super intelligent or kill me. I just find that my electricity prices went up, and I don't like that.
Speaker 1:So we're on the same team. Like strange bedfellows, basically
Speaker 4:Yep.
Speaker 1:Where they believe different things, but they arrive at the same conclusion, so they team up.
Speaker 3:Same cause.
Speaker 1:Anyway, if you wanna go visit Memphis, book a wander. Book a wander with inspiring views, hotel grade amenities, green beds, top tier cleaning twenty four seven concierge service. You really should, if you're a true technologist, go on a trip to see a data center in person.
Speaker 3:They I don't know if they have anything in Memphis, but they have Pigeon Forge, Tennessee.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay.
Speaker 3:It's the Wander Smoky Woods, and they have Wander Smoky Peaks.
Speaker 1:Truly, that's probably like amazing wander. Forest. That's probably an amazing wander.
Speaker 3:And you can probably see smoke rising from Colossus. Colossus. It would be it would be incredibly
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 6:It would be
Speaker 3:incredibly, like, wild if Colossus just started burning so much like dirty coal. Yeah. It was just like this black like smoke rising. Yeah. Think you they won't go that far.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. Just so what about just a good old fashioned wood fired data center? Tyler, can we figure out what it would take to have it have you over there I want you to have a little, we'll build you a chimney in the Ultra Dome and we'll build you a hearth And you can you can stoke the fire with, wood and cedar logs. And then I want you to capture the heat, turn it into steam, turn the flywheel to generate the electricity, to run a fine tune of GPTOSS.
Speaker 1:Work through exactly how how that would work. Is that possible? How much how much how many logs would you need?
Speaker 3:A wood fired data center.
Speaker 1:A wood fired data center, which is like the the you know how how good a worm it it's almost fall here. We're cozy maxing. We're already in, brown and green. As far as I'm concerned, the holidays are here. And nothing would get me more it really bring the Christmas spirit forward to have a wood fired data center.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Generating tokens the old fashioned way.
Speaker 1:Exactly. Just hanging out at the hearth generating some tokens.
Speaker 3:Can you imagine late nights with the fellows just tossing wood Yeah. The hearth?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Just Well, you
Speaker 2:know, that's like super
Speaker 1:intelligent. I'm pretty sure that's like how a steam engine works. Like, I'm pretty I mean, there's I guess it was coal, not wood, but, if you're on, like, the the Titanic, you're you're down in the boiler room and you need to boil water to turn the spring the the to spin the turbine, you're taking coal and shoveling it into the fire to make heat, to make boil water, And there's no reason why we can't be doing it here. There's no reason.
Speaker 3:We gotta go to the chat. Except all of the environmental regulations. Adam Hoop says wife is going into labor. I'm between Jordy and John for my son's name. If Jordy or John can't decide, I'm letting Sam Alden spin up a model and name him himself.
Speaker 3:How about how about data center? No. Data center hoops.
Speaker 1:About what about Adam Adam Junior?
Speaker 3:Adam Junior.
Speaker 1:I think Adam's a great name. Adam Junior, we'll call him Junior. Or, have we talked about this?
Speaker 3:In all seriousness, Adam. Congratulations. This is incredible news. And log off. Log Log off.
Speaker 3:We'll still be here. You can catch the recording, but we're we're excited for you and your family.
Speaker 1:I did I did actually talk to someone who, had a baby and and, the the the the new mom and the husband threw on TBP when they were, like, in recovery. Because, like, oftentimes you're hanging out and you need something to watch. And they were like, yeah. Let's let's watch it.
Speaker 3:Why not?
Speaker 1:It's gonna blow your mind when I tell you who it is too because it's a very funny, very funny couple. Anyway, yes. Naming the kid AGI would be funny. Aggie Aggie for short. That would be that would be great.
Speaker 3:But Tyler is also a strong name for baby boy.
Speaker 1:Yes. How about 2,600,000? There is that somebody in the chat? Yeah. 2.6.
Speaker 1:Anyway, there was a there there was a the timeline was in turmoil a little bit yesterday near Sian and Rune going back and forth. Before we dig into let me talk about Adio. Adio is the AI native CRM that builds, scales, and grows your company to the next level. Stick to this DRM. Maybe stay away from the short form video consumption.
Speaker 1:It would be this would be the argument from from Near. Basically, people are going back and forth with Rune. Where does Rune stand on Sora? Where does Rune stand on Slop? And so short form video.
Speaker 3:The Rune deleted his post.
Speaker 1:He did. He did.
Speaker 3:So I don't know what it said.
Speaker 1:He he he committed seppuku effectively. It's a it's a hari hari hari on the timeline that experienced. Deleting your post is it it is it is A sign of honor. It's a techno yes. It's a technology brother ritual effectively.
Speaker 1:But we we have we have some we have some traces. We have some we have some fossils that
Speaker 3:we can
Speaker 1:that we can dust off. So We might have a screenshot.
Speaker 3:What was the general what was the general idea of what he said? So we can get into this comment from Near.
Speaker 1:He was saying he was saying there's there's sort of a moral panic about short form video. I was kind of saying that with him too. And I think there was like there was a big like like this all started with, like, the meta vibes thing where everyone was like, this is brain rot. This is gonna one shot everyone. Get ready to die.
Speaker 1:This is the worst thing ever. And my, like I was like, yeah. It is kind of sloppy. I it is sort of infinite jesty, but, like, there is, like, the possibility that this is just not popular. That, like, it is possible that, like, the slop trough just doesn't taste good and people just actually wanna do something else.
Speaker 1:Like like, chess ate
Speaker 3:It was so obvious. It was so obvious on day one that that it the the product was kinda cool
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 3:But it was it may as well have been Yeah. A play a playlist Yeah. Video of, like, cool AI videos.
Speaker 1:Like, people people refuse to believe that there is at least a probability that in fifty years, people are still watching humans create content. Like, I don't know. There is a probability of that. It is possible. I think most I think many many people in, like, traditional media, just in not AGI pilled crazy world, would be like Yeah.
Speaker 3:The more the more people live online Yes. The cooler it will be to see a dude like wingsuiting. Because it's like Totally. Okay. We're we're, you know, every you know, 99% of people watching this are Yeah.
Speaker 3:Just inside on a screen. Yeah. Yeah. And this dude is flying Yeah. You know, 20 feet away from a mountain Yeah.
Speaker 1:Like And so 20 miles. And so is there is there a possibility that that the MetaVibes app becomes so addictive? You can't turn it off and it destroys your life. Like like, maybe I've read the sci fi. I I I would put a probability on it.
Speaker 1:I would say it's a couple percent that that happens. That is bad. But there's also just the possibility that people just are like, man, I'm not into it. Right? But people weren't people weren't even no one was saying, like, hey.
Speaker 1:This might just not work. Everyone was like, Meta Vibes will kill everyone, and and that was kind of the mood on the timeline. So so Rune was reacting to that saying that there's a moral panic about short form video. It's not actually that bad. He's going back and forth.
Speaker 1:Some people were pressing him on, like like, don't you think this is bad for kids? He was like, I don't I don't actually know that it's that bad because I watched a couple hours of TV a day as a kid. And is short form is watching short form for three hours a day fundamentally different than watching TV for three hours a day? Because everyone will say, oh, the the real trade off is, like, reading James Joyce versus TikTok. And it's like, that was not what was going on in the nineties.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And and what what does television do? Right? They're like, they they're using hooks. Right?
Speaker 3:Totally. An episode of a television show starts, and it starts off maybe dramatic, and it pulls you in. And then right before an ad, the
Speaker 1:All of a sudden, it'll slam to an ad for fall. The world's best generative image audio and video models all in one place, developing fine tuned models with serverless GPUs and on demand clusters. Yes. So we don't have a way to quantify brain rot. Right?
Speaker 1:Like Yeah. Is Barney with ads on it on Nickelodeon I'm I'm getting a
Speaker 5:lot of things right.
Speaker 3:Actually the TV. We
Speaker 1:do have a way. Okay.
Speaker 3:We have twins.
Speaker 1:Yes. Oh, AB test.
Speaker 2:If we can AB test that.
Speaker 1:One one I refuse, actually.
Speaker 3:No. I mean, this this you could I mean, it it would it would you would effectively be potentially sacrificing Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A son for humanity.
Speaker 3:Yes. But one son gets five hours a day on the iPad
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 3:From a young age in the Sora app, in the Meta Vibes app
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 3:Just scrolling.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 3:The other is is gets, you know, personalized tutoring from Yeah. You know
Speaker 1:I mean, we also have Tyler. Me volunteer. Maybe maybe we can see. How much, Sora have you watched?
Speaker 2:None. I never go on sore.
Speaker 1:You're you're you're you're you're purely, like, if I if I tell if I order you, if I if I as your boss, I give you the task of generate a video for me, then you will do it. But you you you truly have not consumed, like, any
Speaker 5:No.
Speaker 1:Not just like the first day or two. What what about you, Nick? Have you consumed any AI video Sora or Meta vibes? Because you were really into it on day one. Right?
Speaker 1:Day
Speaker 7:one, was super
Speaker 8:into it. It takes
Speaker 2:too long
Speaker 1:to load and then it Okay.
Speaker 8:It generates
Speaker 2:and then says,
Speaker 8:you have violated policies.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. Can we hear him at all on the stream? Sorry. I can hear him.
Speaker 1:Anyway, the the the what about production team? Hands up if you've watched more than ten minutes of AI video in the past week. Zero. Zero. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Philistines. Well yeah. So, I mean, it will get better. I don't know. But, anyway, this all concluded with, Nir, Cyan, and Rune going back and forth.
Speaker 1:Rune said, I like the way Sora looks. I like the content. That was his final he wasn't saying, I'm not I'm not doing some three d chess coping on, like, it's not that bad for you. He was just saying, like, I like it. I think it's just good content every once in while.
Speaker 1:It's fine. And so Nir says, do you actually believe this? Like, do you realize the product is the API, not the app as containment isn't possible. And that short form video consumption is on the order of several hours per day for US adolescents. I didn't comment on the launch, but I'm sure I'm not Yeah.
Speaker 1:This is this
Speaker 3:is what I this is what I was saying, like, on launch day. Which is like, if you really wanted to give the chance to become a consumption platform, you wouldn't have made Sora two available via API for anybody to generate. You would have, like, at least tried to contain it as much as possible. Right? People still could have, like, screen recorded and posted it elsewhere.
Speaker 3:But it was just very obvious immediately that it there was, like, an incredibly innovative, like, AI creative tool Mhmm. And, like, probably not gonna work as a, like, new standalone consumption app because there's the there's a lot of peep the the TAM for people that are will be entertained by AI video is, like, the entire world in the fullness of time. Yep. Anybody that's logging on to the Internet will probably at least laugh a few times a year from an AI video. Right?
Speaker 3:Yep. Or they're certainly gonna see them. But the TAM of people that today only wanna watch AI video Yep. Is, like, basically zero.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I'm trying to imagine the bull case for the API. Like, if I'm if I'm a OpenAI customer as a business and I'm and I'm using GPT five or, you know, some cash stuff and I'm using some reasoning tokens over here and I'm, like, a big API buyer, and then they come out with Sora, and I'm like, I I really would like to use that in my business. Like, I have an actual business use case. I'm trying to think of what that would be.
Speaker 1:Like, I
Speaker 4:don't I don't really know.
Speaker 3:The biz the business use cases, I mean, think about how many platforms are trying to help people generate ads for social ads.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Right? Yeah. Generate, you know, content for various videos they're making.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So if you're like Kennen at Icon, and you're an AI generative ad company or now like an agency and the API is not available for this new tool, you're gonna be, like, bummed out. Right? Yeah. And so it just it just feels like I I mean, I agree with all the rationalization about, like, it's better for the long term strategically to, you know, create, to actually bootstrap a real network, keep everything in the network.
Speaker 1:But at the same time, it just feels like the OpenAI ethos is just like do everything all the time all at once. And that's just like their their their their core thesis. Anyway.
Speaker 3:Interrupting our timeline, Palmer Lucky has hit the timeline and says, it says something about society that the most controversial thing I have said in recent history is that I wish I would have married my wife sooner. Not that whales might have had better oral history than humans, not that America should restart nuclear testing, marrying young. So obviously his comments on TBPN earlier this week became somewhat of a current thing on the timeline. And of course, people were taking one part of his statement completely out of context and of ignoring the fullness of his point. Yeah.
Speaker 3:But it's certainly certainly been interesting to see the response. It's been very split.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It was it was a true, like, wedge issue both inside and outside of, like, the core tech community. Like, I saw I saw people who, like, literally write for, like, similar outlets on opposite sides of the issue, but I don't think of them as, like, left or right or pro tech or anti tech. Like, there were pro tech people who liked the take or and hated the take, and there were anti tech people that liked the take and and hated the take. It was, like, all over the place.
Speaker 1:It was very, very hard to map. It was fun watching the conversation get started, and I it it it it surprised me.
Speaker 3:It started with him calling me a turbomormie
Speaker 1:Hilarious.
Speaker 3:Or saying that
Speaker 1:I was just laughing about it.
Speaker 3:I know. We were we were laughing we were laughing about that, and then and then, he he he took it even further. But
Speaker 1:Yeah. I mean, it was it was framed in in, like, let's let's see how far we can push this envelope way, but you can clearly understand what the core message is.
Speaker 3:Even said easy for me to say Yeah. I met my wife when we were teenagers.
Speaker 1:Yes. Yes. Yes.
Speaker 3:Now, and and and the broader conversation of how having children Yeah. In your thirties at any point is exhausting. Yeah. Basically, the younger you are, potentially the the the in some ways, it will be easier.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. I was I was trying to think back to, like, okay, would highlight like like, let's say that I I actually did have kids at, you know, 20 or something like that. So I know some people that had kids at 20, like guys that I grew up with in high school. And their their, like, you know, becoming a dad experience is, like, framed kind of like, oh, it was like an accident or like a, you know, surprise.
Speaker 1:And they all turned out, like, fine. Like, it all it it didn't it didn't distract at all. It's just like of just turned into, like, a funny bit of lore about them. And it's like, oh, yeah. They have, a kid that's, like, much older than, like, the rest of their cohort.
Speaker 1:So they are, in some ways, like, you know, like, they don't have a huge support group because all of their other friends had kids later. But in terms of, like, the mechanics of, like, what their life is like, it's not that much different. And I feel like no matter what when you analyze kids, just the fact that you love them is so it's such a wrench in the system of, like, let's analyze this rationally because you wind up just saying, well, like, yeah, they're exhausting. They're exhausting at 35. They're they'd probably be extremely exhausting at 20.
Speaker 1:Yeah. You'd have more energy, but you have less experience. And also, you love them. And so it's amazing. And it would be amazing then, and it'd be amazing now.
Speaker 3:Yeah. My my take has always been the time always comes from somewhere. Yeah. So if you have kids in your early twenties
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Then by the time
Speaker 1:Get ready to not club.
Speaker 3:Yeah. That that's true.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:But but, you know, it's gonna take up a lot of your time. Maybe it'll be massively distracting from your career. Right? I I think about this all the time. Yep.
Speaker 3:You know, early, you know, after after my son was born, it was like, okay. There's now I ended up just completely sacrificing my social life. Right? I there was work time and there was family time and there was like very little in between. Sometime there Yes.
Speaker 3:There was work time that was a little bit social.
Speaker 1:But what is the social life for most people? For most
Speaker 3:It's it's their work.
Speaker 1:No. No. No. No. No.
Speaker 1:It's like a mating ritual.
Speaker 3:That's true.
Speaker 1:Like, a lot of the reason why
Speaker 3:People are going out.
Speaker 1:People are have a social life is because What is the dance? To meet someone. Exactly. Peacock. Yes.
Speaker 3:You know, to what the
Speaker 1:the They're trying to meet that person. Yeah. And so we just kind of extended our lives, which is incredible, and then injected an extra ten years of, like, let's find the person and delay the process. Yeah.
Speaker 3:In my view, if if somebody that has kids in their early twenties Yeah. Well, by the time they're 28 and actually have, hopefully, like, a skill set, their kids are in school
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And and maybe their kids are a little bit older. Yeah. And they're able to potentially they're they're not hitting 30 and then having to go through this crazy experience of having kids. Then it's still gonna be a distraction from their career. But Yeah.
Speaker 3:Even then, they maybe have more responsibility, higher opportunity cost, you know. It's all these different factors. So
Speaker 1:I think other also, people were very triggered by the the fact that he specifically said, like, you know, he could if he had said, like, 19, would it have been different than 16 because 16 is, like, underage. Right? I I think that people were probably latching on to that, that it's, like, very young. Or do you think it was mostly just, like like
Speaker 3:He said it in a provocative way.
Speaker 1:Yes. But I I actually don't know about the the history of, like, you know, like, when humans had kids. Like, feel like there was a time in, like, the castle ages, like, the medieval ages when, like, people were having kids at 16. Like that's true. Right?
Speaker 1:He wasn't like factually incorrect about that?
Speaker 3:Yeah. I'm sure. I mean, you should look you should look back through the Kuggan family tax, you know, and go a few hundred years and open it up and and get some
Speaker 1:I actually did go back. And on my on my Swedish side, there's this there's this, like, four hundred year chain where the family just kept using, like, the same naming convention. So they would say, like, Olafson, son of Olaf, and then it would be like Jacobson Olafson. Jacob Olafson, Olaf Jacobson. Jacob Olafson, Olaf Jacobson.
Speaker 1:Jacob Olafson. It would just go back and forth because they just kept naming themselves
Speaker 3:like dad was the fourth in a row of the exact same
Speaker 1:name. Exact same name.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I would have been the fifth. My mom was like, nah.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah. If you have a if you have another son who you give the same name as the the dad, you can use the nickname Trip for oh, no. No. It would be Skip because you see Is the generation
Speaker 3:that the origin of Skip?
Speaker 1:Yes. That's where Skip comes from. And so if you have the same name as your father, you can be called junior. Everyone knows this. If you have the same name as your father and your grandfather, people can call you Trip because you're the triple.
Speaker 1:And if you have the same name as your grandfather but a different name than your father, you can use the name Skip, which is very fun.
Speaker 3:Skip Hayes.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Might be coming It's a good name.
Speaker 3:Might be coming up.
Speaker 1:You might have to do it.
Speaker 3:In other news, there was some news or fake news this morning that the Trump administration is in talks to take equity stakes in quantum computing firms.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Companies including Ionic, Rigetti Computing, and D Wave Quantum are discussing the government becoming a shareholder as part of agreements to get funding earmarked for promising technology companies according to people familiar with the matter.
Speaker 1:And this is and this is so important because like the free market just can't solve It's not like there's a whole bunch of, like, multi trillion dollar
Speaker 3:companies that are yeah. Venture capital Hyperscalers that are heavily invested here. Venture capital firms that are happy to fund Yeah. Promising.
Speaker 1:It's not like Google, like, it's not like this has breakthrough, like, last week that people were pretty excited about. Not like Microsoft's working
Speaker 3:on this. The admin did this specifically to torture Skraly because Skraly this this feels very personal. Right? So Skraly Skraly is very loudly and proudly been shorting, you know, Rigetti and and Ionic and and all these companies because, you know, he I think the general sense is that, you know, there's a spectrum from like science experiments to scams. Right?
Speaker 3:And people tend to kind of sit somewhere there in terms of their opinion on quantum. Josh Wolfe had some choice words earlier. Let me pull it up. He said, this is beyond stupid, absolute waste of taxpayer money. Quantum is utterly irrelevant fraudulent BS.
Speaker 3:So strong words there. But Do you know lore? So
Speaker 1:Do you know the Rigetti lore?
Speaker 3:But before that, Screlli had hit these these companies had been selling off pretty aggressively. Yeah. And of course, like, you get an announcement like this. Let's let's look at Ragetti and see how they've been doing. So
Speaker 1:Oh, the Ragav in the chat. This is a this is a very interesting take. My conspiracy is this was a planted story by someone in the admin to help with exit liquidity in expiring call options.
Speaker 3:I think that's that's potentially what
Speaker 1:There's something something odd going on here because
Speaker 3:Because there would just be so much blowback from generally smart people about this that are taxpayers,
Speaker 1:that
Speaker 3:are Americans that are gonna say, I don't wanna be a shareholder in Rigetti. Yeah. And so more and and there was pushback and concern about the Intel deal, but at least there was broad consensus that we don't want in we want Intel.
Speaker 1:Maybe this is a hot take, but, like, I actually disagree with Josh Wolfe that, Quantum is utterly irrelevant, fraudulent BS. I don't think it's fraudulent. I I mean, I I'm kind of I'm kind of in line with the with the Scrella take that it's it's just like it has a very narrow use case for very specific algorithms that and we don't really know the business application. It's not like LLMs where we're just gonna be stuffing quantum computing all over the place. It's like there might be something that we've used it for, but we're not exactly sure.
Speaker 1:And so it is very much a science project. But I personally don't believe that that like, I won't say all of the quantum computers, but I I I don't believe that they are all fraudulent. Like, I think a lot of them are saying, look. You, the shareholder, are investing in a science project. I'm gonna test some things.
Speaker 1:I'm gonna run experiments. It may work. It might not. And you're like, I'm a 100% down for that risk. Yes.
Speaker 1:Like, take the risk. That's what I'm signing up for. And everyone's happy. Everyone's happy even if it goes to zero.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And and so and so I don't see this fraud at all.
Speaker 3:Google's efforts, which are probably the most advanced Yeah. In the world. Yeah. Sundar is not out there, like, saying, hey, you know, really, Alphabet should be a $10,000,000,000,000 company because of our quantum efforts. Yes.
Speaker 3:Like, it's a project that they believe has real potential. Yes. So they're investing many billions of dollars into it. Yeah. But it's but it's still even internally, like Yeah.
Speaker 3:Structured as a science project.
Speaker 1:And so, yeah, Equis Global says leave Quantum to the Googles and the Microsofts, fund with free cash flow. I I think that's one good option. But to be clear, like, it's also great if VCs wanna take a crack at that and say, hey. There's there's this really weird idea in quantum that Google and Microsoft are not gonna even take a swing at because it's so bizarre. Everyone thinks it's a failure or or or, you know, not gonna work with such a long shot.
Speaker 1:And so we are gonna do it outside of the system. The the analogy here
Speaker 3:would be like Quantum startup on that raised, like, a billion dollars. I don't remember I don't remember their name.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It does not seem like it's
Speaker 3:a it's a bear market. Capital is a constraint.
Speaker 1:No. I completely agree.
Speaker 3:Progress there. And so yeah. Hopefully, this story it's it's it's a sad sad situation where we have to say, hopefully, this story was planted by someone in the admin whose calls were expiring.
Speaker 1:It happens sometimes. Well
Speaker 6:But,
Speaker 1:you know who's not planting stories? Graphite.dev because they're reviewing your code in the age of AI. Graphite helps teams and GitHub ship higher quality software faster. Upslow Capital says, I am without speech. I like I like that as a funny just, like, line that you can quote tweet things with.
Speaker 1:I am without speech.
Speaker 3:Brother Bucho Capital says, can't believe my tax dollars are gonna be invested in rigatoni computing.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And the crazy thing is, like, this is, Jaguar Analytics is this is the kind of stuff that used to happen repeatedly during dot com bust. And, and it shows, like, the red like, all the different companies that are
Speaker 3:Joby, Archer well there. Rigatoni.
Speaker 1:And it's not Rigatoni, it's Rigetti.
Speaker 3:Iron
Speaker 1:Founded by Chad Rigetti. And this is the lore. Do you know the lore? Chad Rigetti is married to Susan Fowler. Susan Fowler is the Uber whistleblower.
Speaker 1:Woah. Bombshell. Crazy. Crazy dinner table talk at that point. It's like one's building in the quantum computer.
Speaker 1:The other one is blowing the whistle, writing books at about Uber, working with Mike Isaac on that, probably. I guess they knew each other. Although they did go book for book. That's the funny that's the other funny lore is that she wrote the blog post that went viral. Right?
Speaker 1:Mike Isaac at the New York Times was doing the right. He's at the New York Times now. I don't know if he was there. I think he was there then. Mike Mike Isaac was doing, like, the beat reporting on the play by play of all the chaos inside Uber as Travis was getting ousted.
Speaker 1:And then they both came to market with books, and they went head to head. And I I don't know who sold more copies, but, it's just a funny thing of, like, you know, when you blow the whistle, you gotta get that book deal. You gotta do you gotta turn it into a a a 50 episode Apple TV original series. That's you gotta turn it into you know what you gotta turn it into? You gotta turn it into a one piece anime.
Speaker 1:Thousand episodes. None of this like, oh, Theranos was a crazy story. Let's turn it into an eight episode series. No. I want a thousand animated episodes of the story of Elizabeth Holmes as she goes on adventures and and and it just continues forever.
Speaker 1:That would be good.
Speaker 3:Speaking of Elizabeth Holmes Yes. She's probably pretty excited about seeing CZ Pardoned. The pardons are flowing. Chong Peng Zhao Yes. Canadian businessman and former CEO of Binance, pardoned by the Trump administration.
Speaker 3:So, you know, I'm sure she's thinking, I'm up next. I'm up next. We'll see
Speaker 1:if it happens. There is a rumor she might be getting out early. Not because of, like, anything special necessarily, but just the way the like, when you Google it, it's calculated one way. Basically, like, the the the auto complete is just like, when did she go to jail plus the maximum sentence and it adds up. But like
Speaker 3:There's like a best behavior.
Speaker 1:It's it's it's like best behavior plus time served while you were under investigation and stuff. And so you can count old times because it's like you were in prison while you were, you know, going through the court case, so we count that. And so I think that if things go well, she could be out in the next, like, three to four years maybe. But, yeah, pardon certainly seems interesting, and I think that's probably why we're seeing some posting.
Speaker 3:Seems interesting. Posting. You're not you're not you're not recommending the admin. Pardon?
Speaker 1:I haven't seen anything that that would lead me to recommend a pardon. At the same time, I haven't I haven't seen a ton of like, I think I I like, I'm not exactly sure who got who got the most burned. Like, were definitely people that got, like, bad test results, and that's and that's obviously, like, seriously harmful. But most of the VCs who who invested, like, investors were accredited. They took a flyer on a dropout from Stanford.
Speaker 1:Like, I don't know. I I I think it's kind of like a, you know, buyer reware situation with the company.
Speaker 3:Yeah. But they put devices that didn't work into into use around the country.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Which And so, like,
Speaker 3:the input the like, I don't like, the investors took the risk.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 3:They knew the risk that they were taking.
Speaker 1:Yep. But But
Speaker 3:but but the nation of fraud was that they
Speaker 1:lied about that.
Speaker 8:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And could negatively impact
Speaker 1:It's just so crazy that you were Bobby Cosmic. I am not a weave. I merely studied the Antichrist lectures. And so I've never seen an episode of One Piece. I have watched One Piece of anime, is Akira, just the movie.
Speaker 3:Didi Doss was highlighting some sections from CodeTwo's AI report.
Speaker 1:Before you dive into this, let me tell you about ProFound. Get your brand mentioned in ChatGPT. Reach millions of consumers who are using AI to discover new products and brands. Yes. Fascinating set of charts.
Speaker 1:Shall we pull them up?
Speaker 3:Didi says, why we are not in an AI bubble in four charts?
Speaker 1:You gotta you gotta summarize these and I'll hit the gong for every for every positive bull signal out there. Break it down for me.
Speaker 3:Here's why. Multiples are nowhere near dot com level. We
Speaker 1:got room to run.
Speaker 3:And we got we got we got camera we got face tracking on the camera. This is a new feature. Shout out to Give me
Speaker 1:the sec. Good news. Code two.
Speaker 3:CapEx is growing but funded by cash flow. Woo.
Speaker 1:Give me something else from the Lafayette.
Speaker 3:Largest tech co valuations lower than 1999.
Speaker 1:We're selling business, baby.
Speaker 8:Concentration in the market isn't
Speaker 3:necessarily negative. What
Speaker 1:about the US government is gonna bail out everything from quantum?
Speaker 3:That's also quite exciting. Brian Halligan over at HubSpot, coming on the show soon says, in my honest opinion, private markets are in bubble are in bubble territory while public markets still seem rational. I think I think that's a good take. I think a lot of what's holding us back from from, you know, even more craziness is just the overall state of the economy. Right?
Speaker 3:You have trade wars, tariffs, you have a, weak labor market, you have an unpredictable admin, you have war in The Middle East, war in in Europe, and you have a higher rate environment than we've been used to.
Speaker 1:Right?
Speaker 3:Yep. And so imagine if we didn't have if we didn't have, those factors, I think it could be a lot crazier. Right? But there's a lot of there's a lot of real reasons for people to be kind of
Speaker 1:Yeah. I also wonder Not if
Speaker 3:not entirely risk on.
Speaker 1:I wonder how much how much different the like, AI is there are some new companies. Right? OpenAI, Anthropic. There's a bunch of startups and private markets. But AI is a is like a growth story for the Mag seven.
Speaker 1:But the Mag seven are so huge that it's just hard to, like you can't, like, turn it into a meme stock. You know? And I'm wondering if you go back to .com, like, the biggest companies at the time do you know the biggest companies during the .com boom?
Speaker 3:Was it the
Speaker 1:It's the oil companies. The oil companies were the biggest companies by market cap.
Speaker 3:Oh, by mark or
Speaker 1:Like Exxon, not by
Speaker 3:not by, like, you know, growth.
Speaker 1:No. No. No. Not by growth at all. So what I'm saying is, like, is, like, you have this, like, you know, like, you have this cruise ship that's, like, the anchor of the economy, and it's, like, the big companies.
Speaker 1:And at that time, it wasn't big tech. It was big oil. And big oil was, like, something that would be really hard to push, and the .com narrative, like, didn't push it at all. But now we have the the the big tech folks who was also, like, a big cruise ship. And Yeah.
Speaker 1:But they're so big that, like, it's hard for them to just, like, oh, yeah. Like, the mag seven tripled this month. Like, that would be a really, really crazy movie. It would take trillions of dollars of investment to actually drive that in the market. So I I don't know.
Speaker 1:Bunch of bull cases. Tyler
Speaker 2:I I What are thinking? Okay. So I I calculated how many how big of a hearth I would need to
Speaker 1:Oh, yes. Tune. Yes.
Speaker 2:So okay. So if I'm using GPT OSS 120,000,000,000 parameters
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And then I have
Speaker 5:What do
Speaker 1:you need?
Speaker 2:8881 Mhmm. You can probably get a a decent fine tune within like an hour. So that's gonna be something around like eight eight eight point five kilowatts Kilowatts? Kilowatt hours. And then if you're if you're looking at dry wooden logs about two kilograms each
Speaker 7:Yep.
Speaker 2:You'll probably need something like four to five logs
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:To to to for that energy.
Speaker 1:Wait. Five logs of and that's all you need to do this fine tune?
Speaker 2:It's just one hour. Yeah. I I was actually surprised.
Speaker 1:That's insane. I was expecting you to say I'm gonna need a massive thing. I mean, all
Speaker 2:the one hour. I mean, it's not that crazy.
Speaker 1:That's crazy. But You could really fine tune GPT OSS in one hour?
Speaker 2:And the model's pretty small.
Speaker 1:Okay. 100 How would you would would you need, like, a server rack, or could you actually, like, build a computer that we could house eight H one hundreds? Is that possible? Or do you need, like, a proper server rack?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I mean, eight is pretty big. You I don't think you can just fit that in, a normal PC setup. Yeah. But even then, it's still not that big.
Speaker 1:Like There's a
Speaker 2:of people have that at their
Speaker 1:house. There's definitely the trappings of an of a banger YouTube video here. You know, like, those primitive, like, videos where, like, I built a thing from scratch. I built a toaster with no modern technology. Have you ever seen those videos or anything?
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Great. And and I I would imagine I fine tuned an AI model using logs. It would be a ripper for sure.
Speaker 3:Anyway In other news Yeah. Charles Gasparino says, scoop. Mhmm. Scoop alert. People inside Paramount Skydance say David Ellison advised by his father, Larry Ellison, are reluctant to pay more than $25 a share Mhmm.
Speaker 3:For Warner Brothers as the buyout drama continues. His last offer, the third rejection from David Zaslav was $23.50 to be exact. Company still weighing a public aka hostile offer for Warner Brothers, which they will argue cannot be sold to other players who are interested, including Comcast because of regulatory roadblocks. Full story coming. So Warner Brothers is currently sitting at, I believe, $21 a share.
Speaker 3:Yeah. $21.34. So David Zaslav is, holding out.
Speaker 1:Did you know Andrew Ross Horkin got a genuine scoop about this deal while being on TV for three hours a day and promoting the book 1929 and being on one of the most aggressive book tours I've seen recently. Is that the goat noise?
Speaker 3:Yeah. That's my goat.
Speaker 1:I didn't realize I never put it together that that was okay. I get it now. Wow. That took me way too long.
Speaker 3:That's crazy.
Speaker 1:I just thought it was like you like farm animals. No. Okay. That's It's the goat.
Speaker 3:Yeah. That's why I play I played it for Jeff yesterday when he joined the show.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1:No. That makes sense. I I like the goat noise. We're building out the full farm farm analogy. We need them farm map.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And we're working on getting live animals. Of course.
Speaker 1:Of course.
Speaker 3:So We'll go to the goat dam. The goat will will make
Speaker 1:Truthfully, like, I I don't I don't feel like I have a good understanding of of of what, David Ellison is building. Like, I I'm I'm newer to coverage of the media conglomerates because I focus more on the mag seven, more on the tech companies, more on the AI stuff. It's a fascinating
Speaker 3:I think he world? I think he's running the experiment of, like, just, you know, basically going to the world and saying one one media industry, please.
Speaker 1:Basically. It feels like he's trying to build some sort of new conglomerate. I don't I don't know how the synergies pencil out. I don't know how everything works.
Speaker 3:We gotta get Barry Weiss on the show. I would love her first couple weeks over at CBS.
Speaker 1:We also have to tell you about Turbo Puffer, serverless vector and full text search built from first principles on object storage, fast, 10x cheaper, and extremely scalable.
Speaker 3:Philip Johnston is on a tear. He says, I'm super excited to announce StarCloud's partnership with Crusoe, builder of OpenAI's massive Stargate data center to enable enabling the first public cloud in space next year. This is the first step in a partnership that will see Star Cloud providing energy for much larger Crusoe data centers over the coming years. There was also a post from Dallian. He was firing shots at NVIDIA because they announced AI shipbuilding partnership with Cyronic.
Speaker 3:He said NVIDIA has announced AI data centers in space and an AI shipbuilding partnership in the last two days. Words and physics just don't mean anything anymore. Dear God, this has to be the top. Please, when will it end?
Speaker 1:He said that in the post? I kind of assumed he was, like, you know, top held, but that was that was a wild place to go. Yeah. We were kind of, we were kinda dunking on this yesterday. I don't know.
Speaker 1:It it it seems like there's a lot
Speaker 3:of pieces that have be
Speaker 1:together for this something to be for this to be real.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I you know, Dalian, from my understanding, will always do a deal that he's extremely excited about. But it's notable that he was very active earlier this year and he's sort of hasn't announced a new investment in the last little bit. So
Speaker 1:Yeah. I mean, I think, some of this is fodder for the public markets, marketing campaigns, just general outlines of, you know, remaining futuristic. Like, there is a world where if you're NVIDIA and you're looking at Andre Karpathy saying, like, hey. The current thing is gonna be slow. You're like, well, then let's what are we gonna do in the next decade while we're waiting around for ASI?
Speaker 1:Maybe we put some data centers in space. Maybe we build some ships.
Speaker 3:More SaaS.
Speaker 1:Maybe we do a bunch of stuff. More more SaaS. That's what I wanna see. Take some real shots.
Speaker 3:Mac Mac Rumors is reporting that there's virtually no demand for the iPhone Air. And I thought it was notable. I have a friend who used to work at Apple. He bought the iPhone Air, used it for, I think, like, twenty four, forty eight hours and returned it.
Speaker 1:He did.
Speaker 3:He just said it was Okay. Not the the thinness the of the phone was not worth the, the battery, trade offs. And he also said that, that phone is so actively trying to conserve energy that it renders things, like, poorly or slowly.
Speaker 1:That's annoying because I feel like there's a little bit of skill issue with regard to the battery where it's just like, just get a car that has a battery charger in it.
Speaker 4:Yeah. And I
Speaker 3:I think there's something about cars.
Speaker 1:Desk, like, figure out how to actually, charge it regularly. Like, everyone has some point in their day where they can plug in. And, like, if you just maybe if you just are a wild man and have no routine whatsoever, but you're also addicted to soar and TikTok, you're gonna have a bad time. But I feel like if you have any sort of, like, yeah, around noon, I'm at my desk. And so I just put it down on the charging pad, like, regularly.
Speaker 1:Like, you're gonna be fine. Yep. But I don't know.
Speaker 3:Yeah. There there's also something about phones where I think the the iPhone Air is a bit cheaper. Right? Sure. But something about a phone is is it is so valuable to your life
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:That if you ask somebody, like, if you were selling an iPhone, like, an iPhone from today to somebody in February, like, how much would somebody pay for that? Yeah. Would they have paid would would like a high powered executive pay, like, a $100,000 a year to have the modern the the iPhone from 2025 and February. Like, I think it's I think it's that Mhmm. Valuable in terms of what it does for your life.
Speaker 3:And so I don't I don't think a lot of people are are making, at least, like, the average iPhone customer is saying, if I can get slightly more performance out of my phone for an extra couple $100 a month, it's probably a good exchange.
Speaker 1:I'm just surprised there aren't more people that are, you know, like Tyler, were, like, a couple of iPhones before. What were you actually on? 13 or
Speaker 2:I was on no. I was on the 11. 11.
Speaker 1:So I
Speaker 2:was like six generations behind.
Speaker 1:Is that six years? You hadn't gotten a phone in six years?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think that sounds right.
Speaker 1:Have you was this your first phone ever?
Speaker 2:No. I was like I was probably like freshman in high school. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay. Okay. It's sort of adding up to me, but that's like what was your first phone?
Speaker 2:Motor roller Hand me down. But it was probably like iPhone four.
Speaker 3:IPhone five. Wow. Okay. Started on an iPhone. Wow.
Speaker 2:Well, no. Silver spoon alert.
Speaker 3:Yeah. No. No.
Speaker 1:No. Wait. So you don't remember where you were when Steve Jobs introduced the iPhone?
Speaker 2:I would I was I even born? Yeah. Yeah. I was like two.
Speaker 1:Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Brutal. Tyler, are you excited that The Sopranos creator David Chase is developing a new limited series about project MK Ultra for HBO?
Speaker 1:Do you know MK Ultra?
Speaker 3:You
Speaker 1:know where you were when Umkur Ultra happened? It's, like from the seventies. Oh, you're giving him the tinfoil hat. This is the first this is the first tinfoil hat. Oh, for the tracking cam is phenomenal.
Speaker 3:Put it on, Tyler. There you go.
Speaker 1:Why why is he wearing the tinfoil hat?
Speaker 3:Now You're from MK Ultra. Right? Isn't that isn't that, wouldn't wouldn't somebody
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:I thought MK Ultra was like the LSD.
Speaker 1:It's LSD.
Speaker 3:Oh, I thought it was I thought it was remote. I thought this was the remote mind control one.
Speaker 1:No. No. No. And and MK Ultra
Speaker 3:exposed for not being
Speaker 1:Wow. Fake Skitsu. Fake Skitsu. Doesn't know his conspiracy theories. No.
Speaker 1:Ridiculous. Anyway, Kotu has a bunch of other stuff. We should, go deeper into their, public markets update. We should just have someone from Kotu on again, because we have a couple a couple folks on.
Speaker 6:But they
Speaker 3:said they they studied
Speaker 1:bubbles. Sat down and Hundreds. And read, and they studied 10 books. They went back four hundred years, read 10 books, and they
Speaker 3:almost 30 bubbles. Why stop reading 10 books?
Speaker 1:And their conclusion was that You. It's not a bubble. Right? I think I I think they think it's like 1996, which is awesome. I'm I'm rooting for '96.
Speaker 1:Let's go. I also am rooting for the bubble already popped. It popped last Friday and now we're reinflating. Anyway, we we have we have Jacob from Microsoft AI in the TVPN UltraDome. Welcome to the show.
Speaker 1:Sir.
Speaker 3:Wow. Finally somebody that Oh. Oh.
Speaker 1:Oh. We got a short guy in this in this studio.
Speaker 3:How tall are you?
Speaker 5:Six seven.
Speaker 3:Six seven.
Speaker 1:I'm six eight. Oh. Six Are you getting the six seven thing? Do you have kids or anything? You you know this whole thing?
Speaker 1:The six seven thing? Come on. Yeah.
Speaker 5:Gotta be in youth culture.
Speaker 1:I I don't know it at all. I I found out about it. I I literally found out about it when the Wall Street Journal published an article. Oh, shit. And it was like, here's the here's the latest trend that's causing problems for teachers.
Speaker 1:And I read it.
Speaker 3:What what are you guys even talking about?
Speaker 1:You don't know this? Okay. So I'm not, dude. So there's this meme where in middle schools, if the number six comes next to seven, six seven, Yeah. It started It'd from this be all the kids will go crazy and go six seven and then they do this because the and and if you trace it back, it goes like seven layers deep into like this.
Speaker 1:There was a kid at a basketball game who was saying six seven, which was a reference to a basketball player's high
Speaker 5:And then one awful rap song Yep. Nobody had listened to before. Yep. Called dude dude. Yep.
Speaker 1:Dude dude. And that's a reference to 60 Seventh Street in Chicago, which is like a popular area to sing about, basically.
Speaker 5:I'm impressed. That's all from the article?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Loosely. Yeah. Wall Street Journal knows their stuff knows their stuff. Anyway, the Wall Street Journal didn't have, your backstory, so you have to give it to us directly.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Introduce yourself.
Speaker 5:Absolutely. Yeah. Jacob Andrea. I lead product and growth over at MAI, mostly focused on Copilot.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 5:Before that, I was at Snap for, like, nine years
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 5:2015, 2023, doing the same thing, basically.
Speaker 4:Mhmm.
Speaker 5:And then in the middle, venture for, like, a year and a half, still doing
Speaker 1:Gray Lock?
Speaker 3:Was that Gray Lock? Yeah. Because that was here in LA.
Speaker 5:No. Oh, okay. SF. Cool. In in the city.
Speaker 5:But I've been based in LA from twenty fourteen ish, and now I just spent a lot of time in Redmond and Mountain my my two favorite places on planet Earth.
Speaker 3:Amazing.
Speaker 5:Yeah. That's great. Exactly.
Speaker 1:Copilot is not nearly sharp enough. Like, you're getting down. That's like a million products.
Speaker 3:Copilot and everything.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It it's a multi trillion dollar company. Like, what are you focused on vertically, horizontally? How is the organization structured? Like, what are you actually doing on a day to day basis?
Speaker 5:Yeah. I mean, it's a super super cool moment for Microsoft right now. We have a a bunch of folks that have come together, a bunch of people that have been there. I'm running people all the time at Microsoft. Been there for thirty five years.
Speaker 5:It's fucking crazy. I've never seen anyone do this. Am I allowed to swear on this show?
Speaker 1:We don't. We don't. You can't. We don't have any sense.
Speaker 3:Feel free to if you feel like that's the
Speaker 5:right You're
Speaker 1:fired up.
Speaker 3:That's the words. Yeah.
Speaker 1:If that's what you want the Microsoft comms team to really like take away from this Right. Because they went wild on a show and and they maybe shouldn't have greenlit it, then yeah. Yeah. We'll push push
Speaker 3:the envelope.
Speaker 5:No. Look. We got together an amazing group of people. A ton of people that have already been there forever, and we're just trying to transform a bunch of the different things that say Copilot across the company. So we got a group of folks.
Speaker 5:They're super talented working on GitHub Copilot on Versus Code stuff, you know, whether that's competing with Cursor or all the other folks in that agentic IDE kind of world. And then me and my team, we spent a lot of time on, like, the consumer Copilot app. So the thing that's in your pocket Yeah. The thing you can pull out of your pocket, use voice mode, talk back and forth with web retrieval. And then we introduced a bunch of really cool stuff just in the last week.
Speaker 1:And is is is consumer Copilot, is that powered by OpenAI models? Are you model agnostic? Are you training your own models? Like, how are you how are you describing? Because with some of the Foundation Labs, they have to put a ton of their marketing behind, like, their model.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And we were having this discussion about, like, at some point, consumers are gonna stop caring about the model. Yeah. Yeah. So how are you thinking about it?
Speaker 5:Yeah. 100%. Yeah. So, Microsoft AI, when we're shipping Copilot
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 5:We're just building the best possible product. Product. That's it. And we're super product focused, super customer obsessed. Yep.
Speaker 5:And at the end of the day, like, whatever's gonna give people the best thing in their pocket, like, that's the job. Yeah. And so for a long time, that was OpenAI models. Yep. And thanks to, you know, the amazing partnership that we have with them, can we put all their models directly into the product.
Speaker 5:Yep. Four o powered the mainline response for us for a really, really long time until GPT five came out more recently. GPT five now is honestly it's an amazing set of models, and it's been really, really popular inside the product. But there are parts of the product where we're already serving other models as well.
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 5:So we introduced a couple new modes this week. One of them is not powered by an OpenAI model. Mhmm. A few of our own first party models just started to drop. So I think six weeks ago was the first time we privately started running LM arenas on MAI fully end to end trained models.
Speaker 3:Okay. Cool.
Speaker 5:Full pre trained. Before that, yeah, before that, we had no ability really to build our own foundation models from scratch. Sure. And in the last six weeks across both language and text and image, we've been in either the top five or the top 10 with our own first party models. Yeah.
Speaker 5:And that's like a first for us. Yeah. And so it's been super cool.
Speaker 1:So does that reflect a view that essentially, like, the foundation model layer is commoditizing, it's high CapEx, but it is something that's maybe viable to get near the frontier?
Speaker 5:Yeah. I think that a piece of it is a little bit that perceived intelligence. You know, when you try these different systems today, even when they're backed by different models, it is a little bit tough to tell, oh, this is way smarter than that. Like, things are kinda getting a little bit closer to
Speaker 1:that. We saw that with, GPT 4.5.
Speaker 5:Yeah. Totally. And then we went to five. Yep. A lot of people were even though it was a smarter model Yep.
Speaker 5:Were complaining about, like, the tone and the personality. Exactly. And so we're
Speaker 1:no Spiky intelligence era.
Speaker 5:We're no longer in a race where just, like, smarter is just better every single time. Yep. And so to really start to build an amazing product, it's not good enough to just have a set of models that are marching up intelligence. You have to actually build what people want in the product. Sure.
Speaker 5:And so an ability to go kind of end to end and be able to actually look at the way people are using the product, have that feedback into like model training, especially post training, and then have that then allow you to iterate the product. Yep. It creates this, like, model product user loop Yep. That is kind of the main way that you'll probably push the envelope in terms of meeting the user needs. Yep.
Speaker 5:So that's what we've really been focused on.
Speaker 1:And when when you think about the user the user of the app, are you thinking more business user, prosumer, consumer Yeah. All of the above? Like, there's there's everyone from, like like, the Xbox Call of Duty kid is a Microsoft customer to, like, the Fortune 100 company CEO Yeah. Is those are very different archetypes.
Speaker 5:Yeah. We long term, we have to serve that whole spectrum. Sure. To start, it's the consumer. Yeah.
Speaker 5:And it's the person that is looking for this thing. You know, they're asking us for advice on health. They're trying to learn new things with Copilot. Yep. They're asking for a lot of help making big decisions.
Speaker 5:Yep. Those are the places where we're really playing the most. And now you can't ship a product from Microsoft without being awesome at productivity. Yep. And so in the last few months, huge push in productivity Yep.
Speaker 5:Making way easier to upload, like tons of files, reason over them, create documents based on the source material you've uploaded. Yep. And this is just like rips. Like, the the as soon as we put this in the hands of users, completely know, we we kind of expected, okay, if we improve answer quality, generally, this is always gonna be good. Improving file upload and improving the number of of files that people could upload Yeah.
Speaker 5:Users just were drawn to it so quick.
Speaker 1:So so, I mean, it's it feels like the real wheelhouse, like, you're just gonna knock it out of the park with the customers if they're running their life on March. Like, they they have a they have a Microsoft email. They have, you know, OneDrive going. They, like Yeah. They they set up their life in that way.
Speaker 1:Maybe because they use it at work. Maybe it's also hybrid work, home, but that's gonna be a really great experience for them.
Speaker 5:Yeah. So the product today doesn't actually need to be rooted in M three sixty five at all. You can just download it. You can just use it, and it's actually amazing for that use case. Long term, the system that has the highest context on you Yeah.
Speaker 5:Is gonna be the best in both sides.
Speaker 1:Of course.
Speaker 5:Of course. It's gonna be the one that knows when your meetings are so it can schedule that dinner that you wanted to get to. Yep. And so we actually think that the long view here is that these things ultimately have to come together. Yeah.
Speaker 5:But for the next six to nine months, we're gonna serve focus on nailing the enterprise use case in m three sixty five inside of all the work apps you already do all your work in. And then at the same time, on the other end of the spectrum for consumers, nail the Copilot app that you just download from the App Store and you just love and use.
Speaker 3:How how should startups think about your guys' ambitions? Because I think that, Sam had a quote. It was probably a few years ago at this point, maybe a couple years ago, which was like, don't build a company that's that's Credicated on the models. Not getting better. Right.
Speaker 3:And I've seen so many companies this year. We've had some of them on the show. We've talked about them that are basically they may as well have said, like, we're building a different Microsoft Copilot
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 3:For x y z. Or we're building we're building Microsoft Excel and Microsoft CoPilot for Excel Yeah. Yeah. As a new company. Yeah.
Speaker 3:And it's cool, like, these are big categories. Right? They're extremely valuable products. It's Yeah. It's worth new teams, like, trying trying to take a crack at some of this, like, timeless software.
Speaker 3:But I'm curious, you're I'm sure you've seen some of them and you're like, wait. You know that, like, we do that already.
Speaker 1:We're yeah. We're
Speaker 3:that's on our road map. And we we have, like, you know, hundreds of millions of people
Speaker 1:As opposed to, like it. Bloomberg has an Excel plug in, and they've had one for a long time. Yeah. That hasn't been on Excel's roadmap because it's a separate thing. But, yeah, how how are you talking to startups?
Speaker 5:Yeah. Look. I think if you get really specialized, like the Bloomberg example Yeah. Like, we're never gonna change all of Excel Yeah. To go compete with, a specific vertical of a way people use Yep.
Speaker 5:Can't change, like, the core platform that much. Yep. But if you're trying to build something, and I won't use the Excel example because it's too close to home, I think Sure. For people that are working on this problem. But if you built, like, a plugin for Word that does something that's, like, pretty horizontal, like, it uses Word for you
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 5:We know. Like, that this is certainly something we spend a lot
Speaker 1:of time thinking templates about. Yeah. For years. And and if you think about, you know, prompt to template, like, that's the very obvious next step. Do you feel like there's a there's a responsibility for the Microsoft brand to send clear messaging to startups so that you don't steamroll them?
Speaker 1:I always wonder about that. Like Yeah. It feels like Sam was kind of saying, like, you know, I'm a former YC, you know, head. I want startups to like me, build on my platform, etcetera, and I don't want someone to accidentally get crushed Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1:By the steamroller.
Speaker 5:Yeah. Yeah. I think that when you're training foundation models at the scale that they are and have kind of been doing it for as long as they have, I think that the world is still adjusting to how quickly things are changing. Yeah. And so I think the degree that the, like, model builders can signpost and be like, hey, like, this is gonna change a lot really quickly.
Speaker 5:I do think that this is probably just the right thing to do for the ecosystem. Now, that being said, for us, we're just focused on building an amazing product. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And the other thing is some startups are overtly saying, I'm gonna kill Excel. They're coming for you.
Speaker 2:It's not like people are like, hey. You
Speaker 1:know, it's a knockout
Speaker 3:Maybe don't do that because we're doing that. It's like, no. They're trying to eat your lunch. Yeah. It's totally fair to just keep expanding your product in ways that, you know, are valuable for the majority of users.
Speaker 5:But the agentic stuff happening in Excel, a specific example, is really cool. Yeah. And so it's one of those areas where it's like Totally. Know, focus. You can win a lot things by being So who knows?
Speaker 5:Maybe the people doing that are still gonna have an amazing product and build a great business. Yeah. But Excel's gonna get pretty agile.
Speaker 1:Do you have anything to show us today?
Speaker 5:A 100%.
Speaker 1:Let let's take Got a lot
Speaker 5:of cool stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. Show us some stuff.
Speaker 5:Can do that. Just quickly, the
Speaker 1:stuff that we camera here so we can see your phone screen if you wanna pull it up.
Speaker 5:Yeah. So the stuff that we talked about Yeah. Gosh, just a little bit this morning. We have a huge release of AI browser. And so I think we heard a lot about AI browsers this week.
Speaker 5:Yeah. And the biggest difference is Edge has, you know, hundreds of millions of people using it. Sure. And now every single one of them with a flip of a switch now has an agentic, browser in the form of copilot mode. Sure.
Speaker 5:I've used it to reorder stuff on Amazon.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 5:Kick off stuff for me. It's been awesome. We also
Speaker 3:And Amazon and get get into, yeah. Get get into maybe a little bit more there. Yeah. Just just while we're talking about it, but this is like you can chat with the pages that you're on and Yeah.
Speaker 5:So sidebar is totally there. Yeah. And you can reason over multi tab context, and you can talk about the different stuff that you're doing. The the thing beyond, like, actions, like we've seen a bunch of people talk about whether it was like Comet or the Atlas stuff from earlier this week Yeah. You know, actions are just gonna get better and better as the models improve.
Speaker 5:Mhmm. You Copilot mode and Edge is, you know, state of the art with respect to the actions that you can do. The one of the really cool differences is once you enable it, it'll actually start to pick up patterns and habits of your browsing. And it'll actually create these journeys and do things proactively for you. And you can jump back in where you left off.
Speaker 5:And so if you're planning a trip and doing flights in a few tabs and doing hotels in other tabs and trying to figure out stuff to go do, Edge will actually see what's going on with that. And the next time you come into the browser, it'll actually have taken the next step in planning that trip for you. And with a single tap, you just jump straight back into Flow where it's actually done the next thing. And so
Speaker 3:That's cool.
Speaker 5:For me when I'm like interviewing candidates and just doing a bunch of research and tabs, it's perfect
Speaker 1:for this.
Speaker 3:How do how do you there there was some conversation concern about prompt injection. Is that like Yes. How do you think about like solving that problem? It felt like it people were saying like, hey, this is a big risk, like, slow down, but it felt like something that was somewhat solvable, like, pretty quickly.
Speaker 5:I I think that's right. And I think that you have to look at this whole class of products right now as it sounds a little maybe too over the top, but kind of like a security preview. Like, we we know there's a whole bunch of risks with allowing the browser and these models to take actions like this. You really have to supervise it. We have a ton of checks and balances.
Speaker 5:It'll ask you Yeah. And a ton of steps along the way to make sure everything's still on the rails. But we're learning alongside everybody else, and this area is gonna evolve really, really fast. So we're Yeah. Ready to just keep playing whack a mole as these issues come up.
Speaker 1:Yep. Are there any surprises? Do you have anything that might be Yeah. Yeah. Teed up for us?
Speaker 1:I we we love hitting the gong around here.
Speaker 5:So so we did we are now the first ever AI app to also drop groups. Okay.
Speaker 1:Are you on the most aggressive version of Liquid Glass, by the way?
Speaker 5:I am, like, liquided out. Glass. I am it's it's all glass all the way.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Okay. It looks good.
Speaker 3:And H two o max.
Speaker 5:And with pro max, you actually get the battery life, so it can power liquid glass. Okay.
Speaker 3:So There we go. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
Speaker 5:So groups is phenomenal. Okay. It's now the first place where if you're having a chat with Copilot, you just add someone to the group. Okay. Use it for my wife when she's asked me questions.
Speaker 5:Have no idea the answer is all the time.
Speaker 3:I can just put her in
Speaker 5:the chat. She can just take
Speaker 3:the That's cool.
Speaker 5:For me.
Speaker 3:Phenomenal. Creating a group chat with an AI and other people.
Speaker 1:You're not bringing it to Teams. It's like yes. In Copilot. Sharing this and then and then we're both on
Speaker 5:the when I'm in the thread Oh. I just hit share. Yeah. Invite with a link. Can drop it in iMessage or whatever.
Speaker 5:Then she's just in the chat. Yep. And they don't even install the app. Yep. They can just use it right from mobile Safari, which is super cool.
Speaker 5:Yep. And so this is the first time across all these apps that you can finally do this which is
Speaker 3:How how it that's it's it's like Pattern that it's such a great and somewhat obvious feature. I'm somewhat I'm somewhat surprised that it hasn't.
Speaker 5:I was shocked when I joined I joined FAI. I was like, no one has built anything social in any of these products. I worked on my AI at Snapchat before I left. Yeah. And so, like, no one had really done this as social ads.
Speaker 1:You're like,
Speaker 2:why not?
Speaker 1:I was
Speaker 3:like, I'll do it again. Like, it's fine.
Speaker 5:We'll run it back.
Speaker 1:Okay. Okay. And
Speaker 5:then and then one of the really cool things that we did Yes. Copat knows all about you guys, by the way.
Speaker 1:Oh, really? Well, we do put out fifteen hours of content every day. Okay.
Speaker 5:We introduced Miko Miko. Who's this new person that you can talk to, this new character. Okay. Really cute face. It's not gonna sex with you.
Speaker 5:So it's completely different than the other AI appearing. Explicitly.
Speaker 3:It's not. Wow.
Speaker 1:It's explicitly non explicit. That's not what it's
Speaker 3:This gonna is the counter positioning.
Speaker 6:We love
Speaker 1:counter positioning. Let's drink the gong for deeds. That's that's not what's gonna happen. Let's drink the gong. It's it's not traditional Bull market
Speaker 3:in traditional values. And
Speaker 5:so with traditional values at our core Yes. As soon as we showed, Miko to Satya Yes. His favorite thing actually was like poking it, which I couldn't find a better way to describe that on here without it sounding a little bit weird. Yeah. It sounds But again Okay.
Speaker 5:It's it's it's gonna be strictly It's safe for work. It's totally safe
Speaker 1:for work.
Speaker 5:Because this is from the company that brought you Microsoft Excel. And and we and of course. Yes. Of course. And I would trust that brand.
Speaker 5:And so as as you poke Miko. Yes. And
Speaker 1:Okay. How many times you've had to poke?
Speaker 5:You really gotta hammer it.
Speaker 3:Hammer. Hey. Oh.
Speaker 1:That means Clippy. Clippy is back.
Speaker 6:Let's go.
Speaker 3:We we have been we have been asking for this.
Speaker 1:Is this breaking news? Is this a scoop for us?
Speaker 5:This is Well, we're this is the first time this has been on air.
Speaker 3:How's the trading card anywhere?
Speaker 1:Now, Clippy is back.
Speaker 5:This is Reborn. For
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 3:Incredible.
Speaker 5:Clippy walked so Miko could run. Yes. Yeah. And so we gotta pay homage to our roots. And so Satya, when he saw this, demanded
Speaker 1:Yes. That Clippy I'm so happy about this. Incredible. I I think people people have people forget We've
Speaker 3:been we've been begging for this.
Speaker 1:We've been begging for this. Obviously, Clippy had, like, a bad bad rep, and people were like, it didn't do what it was promised. But I feel like all of the nuance of, like, where it wasn't perfect has completely melted away, and it's just lore. It's just great lore.
Speaker 5:Your parents hated it, so the kids loved it. Exactly. And it was cool to love it,
Speaker 1:so everybody else got on board. And so it's so ready to bring it back.
Speaker 3:So Well, I did yeah. So many good so many good memories of being in the computer lab school and just looking down and knowing that Clippy was there. He was riding with me.
Speaker 1:How how are we what what does it take to update the name of the app in the iOS app store to just Clippy? You got it.
Speaker 3:That's the next
Speaker 1:See, right now it's an Easter egg, but we're working here together. Baby, have Like, actually, there's, like, a team of 25 people that really worked hard on Mico, and they're It's like,
Speaker 3:now you see three CMOs. This is not, you bring
Speaker 1:that Clippy. But that that is very exciting. Thank you so much for coming by.
Speaker 5:No. Thanks for having me,
Speaker 1:And breaking it down. Yeah. Yeah. See you. What a what a fascinating time in the industry.
Speaker 1:What a fascinating place to be. It must be thrilling to be in your seat.
Speaker 5:It's an absolute treat. There's five places in the world you can try to build frontier frontier AI for a billion people, and this team and this setup, it's unbelievable. So it's really
Speaker 3:Now as a as a as a as a true product guy
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:It's like going somewhere where you have that scale, resources
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Etcetera. And it's actually you know, it's good that we have just this flood of flood of talent into into early stage companies and the labs and all that stuff. But, it's actually incredibly important that talented people go and work at, you know, these companies that already power, you know, use cases for billions of people, millions and millions of companies. So I'm I'm glad you're there.
Speaker 5:Do it. 100%.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Anyway, so much to see you guys.
Speaker 5:Dude, it's
Speaker 1:fantastic. Pleasure. Congratulations. I'm back. Our next guest is Drew Houston from Dropbox hopping on at 1PM.
Speaker 1:We have thirty minutes to take you through more of the news. But first, let me tell you about numeralhq.com. Let numeral worry about sales tax and VAT compliance. I use it myself. It's the official tax partner of Lucy, the nicotine company, who Paul that Palmer also got in trouble with, talking about nicotine.
Speaker 1:But that is a much low, that's a much less, you know, controversial topic. Think everyone has hashed out the nicotine story I can't believe many times. I hope everyone knows
Speaker 3:can't believe I
Speaker 1:The Economist published a
Speaker 6:back.
Speaker 1:Wait. What?
Speaker 3:I can't I just can't believe Clippy's back.
Speaker 1:You're still rocked by this.
Speaker 3:I'm rocked. This is this is shaking my worldview.
Speaker 1:I love it.
Speaker 3:No. But this is this is super fun.
Speaker 1:The the the the nicotine thing is funny because everyone was getting mad about Palmer for basically, you know, in his own way, teeing up the argument of, like, are there benefits to nicotine? And, like, this is a topic that has been discussed by Gwern back in twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen. '15. Then, we started Lucy. We were talking about it a little bit.
Speaker 1:Andrew Huberman did a big deep dive on nicotine, kind of laid out some of the complexities, and, he actually revisited that. It's in the stack today. Do you have his post pulled up? What did he wind up actually saying fully?
Speaker 3:I'll pull it up here.
Speaker 1:Pull that up. But the re the really interesting one is from The Economist, who I regard as pretty conservative organization. They're not really doing hot takes over there. 09/12/2025 published an article called, what nicotine does to your brain. Their conclusion, the drug is hugely addictive, but it does boost mental performance.
Speaker 1:And so that's the formulation that that I think that I think Palmer was, like, grappling with, which is there's mental performance. It's highly addictive. How do you balance those in a world where you remove the carcinogens and you don't wind up with, actually smoking cigarettes? But He was
Speaker 3:talking about that it's an appetite suppressant.
Speaker 1:Exactly.
Speaker 3:There seems there's obviously benefits in not being overweight. Yep. There's trade offs with everything.
Speaker 1:Yeah. But, any any anyway, what what was Huberman's final? Let's trust the experts on this one.
Speaker 3:Was the
Speaker 1:Huberman's final? Huberman's
Speaker 3:final He said with Palmer Lucky's comments about nicotine on TBPN, your reminder that, yes, nicotine increases focus, also is very habit forming. Duh. It's not carcinogenic. I know I know that it's habit forming. I've quit nicotine, you know, five or five or six times.
Speaker 1:Yes. I I I typically quit it like every night before I go to bed.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Then it back up. Is not carcinogenic unless smoked, vaped, dipped, snuffed.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And is an is an unusual stimulant because it simultaneously focuses and relax you. Also raises blood pressure. Mhmm. So, again, do your own research.
Speaker 1:Also, one plus. Don't get in the game unless you're 21 plus, Tyler.
Speaker 2:I've never what why are you looking at me?
Speaker 1:Well They
Speaker 3:went they went to the wrong They
Speaker 9:went to
Speaker 1:the wrong camera.
Speaker 3:The little jump scare. Travis Kelce is teaming up with an activist group to invest in and revive Six Flags. There was another
Speaker 1:How much?
Speaker 3:Oh, I don't know. We have no idea. Left Mike Isaac says, genuinely appreciate how Pop Crave left out the investor part of Activist Investor Group because all the people in the replies think that there's gonna be like a BLM takeover of the roller coaster park. Someone else was saying, like, did Travis Kelce, like, get three wishes when when he was, like, 11 to and he's like, I wanna be a football player. I wanna date the biggest pop star in the world, and I wanna take over.
Speaker 1:It's a it's a $200,000,000 deal. He bought 9% of the theme park operator, and we love to see big name celebrities crossing over to the private equity world.
Speaker 3:Wow. Have their ticker wet. Do you know their ticker? Fun. So good.
Speaker 3:That's a good ticker.
Speaker 1:And The little fun fact. Turns out, according to Chad GPT, you cannot reserve and barter stock tickers. I think we need to do a PSA about this. We heard some rumor that people were trying to in the way that you buy a domain, maybe you squat on it. Let's say that you think that, you know, after ai.com, after chat.com, after after quantumcomputing.com.
Speaker 1:There's gonna be a wave in time travel. So you go out and buy timetravel.com, and you wait, and then somebody comes and buys it from you, and you make a nice return on your investment. That's totally cool in the .com world. That doesn't work with reserving New York Stock Exchange tickers. Like, you can't trade them that way, at least according to ChatGPT.
Speaker 1:Oracle. And so speaking of just funny stock tickers, I we die we do not believe there's
Speaker 3:a there. I can see why Travis Kelce was was interested in this. Six Flags trades at at at less than one x revenue.
Speaker 1:Woah. So hugely He's seeing Potentially
Speaker 3:deep value here.
Speaker 1:Are are are you bullish on, first, do you like theme parks? No. Never? Never been?
Speaker 3:I used to go to LEGOLAND a lot growing up. I enjoyed LEGOLAND. Yeah. But I kinda grew out of theme parks
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:At a young age, and I haven't been to one. And
Speaker 1:I never had a fear of heights. I never I never than a decade. I never was like, I don't like them, but I also was never, like, I gotta go a ton. Kids sort of change that because kids really like them. It's fun to go with the kids.
Speaker 1:But Six Flags is it it it's a different target audience. It's not as there's not as much lore around every ride. But are you bullish on theme parks generally in a world where Bill Peebles is updating us on Sora, and and it seems like the march of generative AI is unrelenting. Are we should you go long slop and then also, you know, steal on the on the roller coaster track?
Speaker 3:I think I'm somewhat takeless here. Yeah. I I don't you know, when Chesky was on a couple days ago, his point of view was that as as slop increases, people will I mean, these are my words, not his, but, you know, digital life becomes more intense. People will wanna touch grass more. They'll wanna go on trips, things like that.
Speaker 3:But in in some ways, I feel like the theme park is like real world slop. Right? It is. Feels like it. It is.
Speaker 3:I imagine going to Six Flags for me would for four hours would feel like I would come away feeling like use I was using Sora for four hours. Right?
Speaker 1:Yes. Like
Speaker 3:not exactly it's it's not like really counter position.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It's not exactly the Metropolitan Opera.
Speaker 3:It feels like the physical, you know, because I I I just I don't like to pay to be in crowds.
Speaker 1:It's physical brain rot. Yeah. It's brain rot IRL.
Speaker 3:But maybe Travis Kelce wants to
Speaker 1:Turn it around.
Speaker 3:Turn it around.
Speaker 1:Tear down the tear down the
Speaker 3:would be whole different roller coasters. Put in a put in a Maybe he wants to increase the risk. Like, ball players go out there. They're going head to head. Right?
Speaker 3:It's Yeah. High risk environment, lot of injuries. Maybe he says, hey. Six Flags injury rate right now. This is this is the Nathan Fielder Mhmm.
Speaker 3:Strategy. Yeah. Yeah. Is the the sort of accident rate is so low on the roller coasters that people don't get the same rush as if they thought that there was maybe like Yeah. Half a percent chance that Mhmm.
Speaker 3:That each that a ride would end in disaster. Right? And so then that would, you know, really bring you into the physical world and really make you feel human to be taking on that level of risk. Right? Yeah.
Speaker 3:So who knows?
Speaker 1:Well, luck to him. The the Sora update, we already talked about Sora a little bit, but new new you can register cameos of specific things so your dog can become a cameo. Fine. And then you can create a
Speaker 3:a Finally. Thank you for listening to your users, Bill people. Finally. Finally.
Speaker 1:I mean, I I You're you're gonna
Speaker 3:gonna play around.
Speaker 1:I'm for sure gonna do this. I like I I think it's gonna be hilarious to put my dog on a skateboard at the x games. Like, if you don't think that's fun, like, you're just, like, humorless and, like, you're you're you're like a a slop scold. You're a scold.
Speaker 3:I think it's I think it's
Speaker 1:Let me enjoy my dog at the axe games.
Speaker 3:Joking a little bit. I'd like I'd like to horse around. But I think it's smart because they've had so much pushback from using IP. Yep. And It's gotta be personal.
Speaker 3:It's gotta be, like It's gotta be personal. And Yeah. People will be excited to generate images Yes. Of their dogs Yes. With axe games.
Speaker 1:And I'm gonna and I'm gonna take my dog, and I'm gonna scan
Speaker 3:a kickflip.
Speaker 1:And he's gonna do a kickflip, and I'm gonna send that to the family group chat, which is the my new social network. My I like there is social media, and then there is social networking. I think this is a great take by Chesky. And so my social network exists on iMessage.
Speaker 3:I would And so I will send the video there. Still very much feel like, like, acts as a social network.
Speaker 1:I feel like it's a professional network.
Speaker 3:It's my LinkedIn. K. Professional network, but my social life is almost entirely overlapped with my professional life.
Speaker 1:If if I'm if I'm trying to figure out what I'm going to be doing in my social life on this weekend, x has nothing to do with it. That is that is orchestrated purely in iMessage.
Speaker 3:But it's the way that I catch up with the majority of my friends.
Speaker 1:Yes. Yes. I agree.
Speaker 3:In terms of, like, keeping a pulse on what they're doing in the world.
Speaker 1:It is more social media than, like, pure algo media. Yeah. So there is something there. But anyway
Speaker 3:Speaking
Speaker 1:Yeah. It it's gonna be fun to play around.
Speaker 3:Media.
Speaker 1:What else?
Speaker 3:Not really. But, ramp data is now available in the Bloomberg terminal. This is cool. You can track AI adoption rate, business size right in your terminal.
Speaker 1:The best news I've heard all day.
Speaker 3:Very differentiated and real time data source.
Speaker 4:It's cool.
Speaker 3:Very cool move from Ara and the Ramp team.
Speaker 1:It's very good.
Speaker 3:This is crazy. The Unity
Speaker 1:Before we read this, let me tell you about Vanta, automate compliance, manage risk, prove trust continuously. Vanta helps you get compliant fast.
Speaker 3:Yes. UniTree g one crawl policy has been deployed to hardware. Plenty of room for improvement, but it's a start. Let's pull up this video. This is a this is a humanoid that can turn into.
Speaker 1:Wait. This is a humanoid? Oh, is crazy. I mean, I feel like I I I don't wanna be too too negative here, but I feel like the film the filmmakers are really not stepping up. Like, I feel like the creative tools right now, both with, like, AI stuff, but also, like, you could buy one of those or rent it, and you could shoot a horror film right now practically.
Speaker 1:Like, you wouldn't be you wouldn't be, like, generating the AI.
Speaker 3:Jason Karman.
Speaker 1:You could make
Speaker 3:Make a humanoid robot horror low budget horror film right now.
Speaker 1:Or or action movie or anything. Like, that just feels like a character that you could immediately put into a movie and tell a whole story around.
Speaker 2:What do you think? Or a character on this show.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That's true. I think we might have to do it. We might have
Speaker 3:to do There's something beautifully dark about a humanoid that's walking and then it suddenly turns into this Yeah. Insect
Speaker 1:Thing. That is very spooky.
Speaker 3:We Very spooky.
Speaker 1:Get one of these? Okay. If we get one of these, we also have to get a couple desert eagles because if it starts acting up, we have to be able to take it out. Right? Like, we have to have we have to have, you know it's like if we were gonna actually do the the the the hearth, I would also say, hey, guys.
Speaker 1:Let's get a fire extinguisher. Right? And so because, like, what happens if you're training and you the log rolls out?
Speaker 2:Yeah. And then the AI becomes sentient and then tries to kill us. Right? That's why we need the fire extinguisher?
Speaker 1:Well, that's what no. No. We just need the fire extinguisher because it's a good safety policy if you're using, a warm hearth to fine tune GPTOSS on an a rack of eight h one hundreds. Because if you're going to be burning a log inside, you should have, you know, proper equipment. And I think if we get this humanoid, you gotta be ready to take this thing out.
Speaker 1:You have to be ready to take this thing out. Jordy, what do you think? How are you taking this thing out if it rises up? If we get one of these, I want to be prepared on day one.
Speaker 3:I think you strap I think you strap charges to it. Okay. And so and it had just
Speaker 1:It has a vest. It has any time.
Speaker 3:That that a vest that that And then we have it. We have it. And if we release it,
Speaker 1:at any moment it explodes.
Speaker 3:Basically, has a Kevlar suit over it. Okay. Explosives on the inside.
Speaker 1:Oh, so it explodes inward.
Speaker 3:Explodes inward. Yes.
Speaker 2:Know it's rubbing a suicide vest on a door
Speaker 3:lock is the is
Speaker 2:the last that's the last thing I would do.
Speaker 1:I think that might be worse.
Speaker 3:It's just charging at It's charging at you and you're running away with the
Speaker 1:Oh, no. I know. If it if it if in one wrong move, we're all going down. We're all going down with it. Oh, this is, wild.
Speaker 1:Anyway, let me tell you about figma.com. Think bigger, build faster. Figma helps design and development teams build great products together. What is this? Is this literally this is literally ChatGPT.
Speaker 1:Should we play this Family Guy clip, or is this a Sora video? I I'm I'm not familiar with this. Did you put this in here? No. Okay.
Speaker 1:Let's move on. Farid has a chart that looks so insane. It's ChatGPT's customer retention. What do you think about this? How do you square this with the earlier data that we saw that, showed that, hey, there might be some slowing adoption.
Speaker 1:This looks like a
Speaker 3:Well, this
Speaker 1:Do you think this looks like an
Speaker 3:incredible growth? This is unrelated to growth. Yes. This is just when somebody tries ChatGPT or how how many months later are they still using it?
Speaker 1:I mean, it's directly related to growth because if you have really great retention, you can just add 5%
Speaker 3:Sure. Sure.
Speaker 1:Of new people. I'm trying to you can almost around forever. Yeah. As opposed to when you have a leaky bucket. You're like, we need to be doing Super Bowl ads every day because like Yeah.
Speaker 1:People are only gonna come in and they're gonna leave after a week.
Speaker 3:Sure. Sure. Sure. But but but generally just looking at like, you know, these new cohorts, what percent like, and I think that, this chart is not nearly as impactful if you haven't worked on like a consumer mobile app. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Right? Because this is like beyond best in class. Yeah. I think this is what you would expect. Right?
Speaker 3:People try ChatGPT. They love it. They stick around. It becomes a part of their life. It becomes like, you know, a a a kind of muscle memory
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Quick quickly. It's become a, you know, let's ask chat type of thing. So
Speaker 1:Look at the difference of the ten month line for the the the most recent ten months ago they joined versus two years ago they joined. From a forty five percent ten month retention to 70% retention. Like, that is just incredible. They're pushing up those lines. It's not just that the lines plateau at 50%.
Speaker 1:So for every person that gives it a try, there's a 50% chance that they just never leave. Right? And then also it's smiling, you get people to come back. That's that's a great sign. But, also, they're pushing up the retention curve so much so quickly.
Speaker 1:And, yeah. I mean, this is just, yes. Product product getting better. But congratulations to the team over there. That that is fantastic news.
Speaker 3:Shane Copeland was Wait.
Speaker 1:Hold on. If you're trying to run one of these analyses on your company, you probably need to use Julius AI. The AI data analyst that works with you joined millions who use Julius to connect their Millions. Ask questions, and get insights in seconds.
Speaker 3:Billions very soon. Brilliant. Shane Copeland was is locked in at this I don't know what sport this is, but I I can see on the jersey, it's Cleveland.
Speaker 1:Cleveland. Some sort of crosstown rivalry
Speaker 6:Some type
Speaker 3:of stadium. Yeah. Very cool. Courtside. Love to see it.
Speaker 6:Yeah.
Speaker 1:He's he's locked in on the phone. That's very fun. Dialing in. And everyone's saying, oh, he's trading. He's he's front running.
Speaker 3:Okay. So I'm I'm worried about getting one shot by AI again, but Melissa Chen has a She post says, actual shot, not AI, of a French detective working the case of the French crown jewels that were stolen from the Louvre in a brazen daylight robbery. Somehow he looks like he's smoking even without a cigarette in his hand, but surely everything you know about life is screaming at you. This case is officially screwed. To solve it, we need an unshaven overweight washed out detective who's in the middle of a divorce.
Speaker 3:A functioning alcoholic who the rest of the department hates. Never gonna crack it with a detective who wears an actual fedora unironically. I mean this This guy really There are
Speaker 1:so many weird things about this photo.
Speaker 3:Okay. Okay. Okay. Yep. I knew this was too good to be too good to be true.
Speaker 3:The the community note says this is this is A photo is real taken outside the Louvre after the jewel theft, but the man in the fedora is a passerby, not a detective on the case. Yeah.
Speaker 1:There you
Speaker 3:go. Didn't stop it from getting 42,000
Speaker 1:lines. At the look at the woman in the back, all the way on the right. Her face is like perfectly lit. Like, this is a remarkable photograph just from a like a dynamic range perspective. This is
Speaker 3:Yeah. So so my putting on the tinfoil hat, I think this guy with the fedora is probably one of the thieves that dressed up in a Oh. Costume when he's coming back to the crime scene.
Speaker 1:I like this. I like this.
Speaker 3:You know, because obviously the thief wouldn't come back to the crime scene. Yeah. So he's kind of, you know, trying to take him take himself out of the pool of a suspect.
Speaker 1:Even if you take off the tinfoil hat and just go with like the the narrative that's here on the timeline, It is hilarious to be like, yeah, I'm gonna dress up like this and then go be a passerby at a jewel thievery.
Speaker 3:Like He's like, I'm gonna go get a fit off.
Speaker 1:Yeah. He's like, I gotta go. I I I gotta go see what's up at the Louvre.
Speaker 3:Gotta be there. I have to be photographed.
Speaker 1:Yeah. For sure. For sure. Drip, he's he's a dripped out Frenchman,
Speaker 3:for sure. Dripped out.
Speaker 1:Let me tell you about Privy. Privy makes it easy to build on crypto rails, securely spin up white label wallets, sign transactions, integrate on chain infrastructure all through one simple API.
Speaker 3:Do you
Speaker 1:wanna do this uncapped clip? Look at the lighting. Jack Altman, your team is on a tear. This is beautiful. Good job.
Speaker 1:I love this. I haven't seen the clip, but let's react. What is it?
Speaker 10:Learned at CAA is, star quality is real. Most people don't have it, some do.
Speaker 4:What is it?
Speaker 10:You just know it when you see it in a room. Tom Cruise is, you know, maybe my favorite actor growing up. I've seen Top Gun a zillion times. I loved Maverick. I had the opportunity to meet him one day in a very kind of random setting.
Speaker 10:I was delivering a package to him and, you know, he shook my hand and looked me in the eye and we talked for three minutes. And, you know, for three minutes, I I thought, wow, this no one cares more about me in the world right now than Tom Cruise does. Right? The way he just commands a room and his presence. Mhmm.
Speaker 10:But also when Colin Farrell
Speaker 1:You heard it here first. Command the room, no excuses.
Speaker 10:Been in a movie before and you spent thirty minutes in a room with him. And he just had so much magnetism about him, the way he composed himself, and talked to you, and looked at you, and just his general kind of persona. So I do think that to me, I do look for that in founders. It's it's the combination of a mind at work and an opportunity that they're addressing. Right?
Speaker 10:I remember when I first met Evan from Snap, he, basically was making the argument that look at the generation of young people coming up with the Iraq war essentially having been, you might say, a hoax. Right? The WMDs were never there. Rolling into the financial crisis, oh, you told us we had the best economic system, and then it almost collapsed. Right?
Speaker 10:And then COVID. Right? The the he built Snap as a platform, as a reflection of those trends. Right? So what was it?
Speaker 10:Well, everything disappears. Right? No one kind of stores your data. You can't trust institutions to look out for you. I think it ended up being incredibly prescient of where we are today as a world.
Speaker 10:Right? Where the institutional breakdown that we've seen. So I think that that magnetism about a person in a room and an idea and a market that they're going after.
Speaker 1:Begoated. No excuses. That's my takeaway.
Speaker 4:That's the
Speaker 1:right takeaway. Begoated.
Speaker 3:John, by the way, we can we can lightly hear you snack those pistachios. So just a heads up.
Speaker 1:I am snacking.
Speaker 3:Please no no snacking ASMR on this show. People can find that elsewhere. We have some breaking news. What's that? We we you've heard about, you know, funds that directly buy, you know, equity Yep.
Speaker 3:In in companies. You've heard about secondaries funds that that buy stakes in in other funds, and we've got something new. We got some breaking news. We've now got tertiary funds.
Speaker 1:Funds next.
Speaker 3:Leila says I can't funds. Believe it's come to this, but here's a visual representation of this ridiculous structure. Bottom is actual portfolio companies purchased by PE funds one and two with respect to LPs. A secondaries fund comes along, buys LP interest in funds one and two from some LPs. Mhmm.
Speaker 3:This secondary fund raises money from other LPs. But now we have a tertiary's fund. This fund will buy secondary interest in secondaries funds by raising money from other LPs. Does anyone even remember how many layers back the actual value is created? PS, not to be confused with c continuation vehicles.
Speaker 3:Stay tuned for that visual. So
Speaker 1:Yeah. This is starting to look like the collateralized debt obligations, credit default swaps from the mortgage crisis. It it's, like, very similar. Like, you remember in The Big Short, there's, the, you know, you have your stack of champagne glasses. You pour the champagne in one glass and then it like flows down to you.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah. No. I haven't seen
Speaker 1:that one.
Speaker 3:Yeah. One of the Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. It's very very similar where like, at every at every tranche, you, like, re collateralize and and re aggregate and ideally, like, distribute the risk. But if there's correlation, then there can be, problems. I don't really know how big this stuff is and certainly not, like, publicly traded yet, but, wow.
Speaker 1:To be a tertiary
Speaker 3:This asset managers doing asset management stuff.
Speaker 1:To be a tertiary GP, that's a that's a life.
Speaker 3:Yeah. A lot of
Speaker 1:We should have one on.
Speaker 3:Big short memes going around.
Speaker 1:Yeah. We should have one on. There's probably a bull case for it that's actually, like, pretty pretty sound. It actually makes makes makes sense.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I can see it making sense in some circumstances. I I think the concern is, like, you're just no one can get liquidity, so you're just kind of, like, passing the buck passing the buck. Yep. You know, GPs are harvesting fees at each level, but there's no actual like returns flowing like from the underlying like sort of value.
Speaker 3:Right? So
Speaker 1:Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I believe it. What else?
Speaker 3:Yasa, owned by Mercedes, recently smashed their own record for motor weight, size, and horsepower. This production intent motor weighs 28 pounds and produces a thousand horsepower. Kyle Cords in the comments says, I do not understand the point of this. There are already five EV brands with amply good enough motors. The motor power density is nowhere near the limiting factor on EV profitability or adoption.
Speaker 3:If they can make an adequate motor cheaper, that would be much more valuable innovation, though still not the limiting factor. Yeah. I have no idea what their intention is for this motor. It could be they want to, just use it in Formula One. Right?
Speaker 1:I see. Why not? It looks sick. Yeah. This is I mean, they'll put in something why not 4,000 horsepower?
Speaker 1:Like, there there seems to be no no limit. Like, the appetite for horsepower is is sort of endless.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah. And somebody here says, wouldn't this also be useful for drones, copters, planes? Sure. Like the original poster says, absolutely yes.
Speaker 3:So
Speaker 1:And also the g 63 land delay. The g sixty three six by six. These things
Speaker 3:The EV version?
Speaker 1:Imagine if you put one of these at each you know, the g wagon has gone electric. What will they do with the six by six? The six wheeled g wagon
Speaker 3:Rick, what are your intentions with my motor?
Speaker 1:But, you know, imagine one of those at each at each wheel of the six by six. You get 6,000 horsepower in a thing the size of a tank. Yeah. It'd be fantastic.
Speaker 3:More interesting news. Self driving taxi company Waymo is now doing 876,000 rides per month in California. Six x increase over the past year and a 69 x increase since August 2023.
Speaker 1:Do you think they wind up working with Uber long term or not? Ben Thompson was talking about, like, he has been writing a lot about the Uber, Waymo, self driving taxi stuff, mostly because he thinks, like, he needs more data. Like, because even at Uber and Waymo, like, they don't necessarily know what the consumer behavior will be. Like, will the consumer stay with Uber, and they'll order an and they'll order a Waymo when one's available? But then when the one one app that can get them anywhere.
Speaker 1:And so if you say, well, I need you to drive me into the snow to go to Big Bear today. Like, you wanna do all that in one app. Or will people say, I I use the Waymo app for most things, and then when I wanna go into the snow and use a human driver for some specific route, then I'm happy to open up the the the Uber app.
Speaker 3:Yeah. We should get Dara on.
Speaker 1:Because there's because there's they're they're actually sort of AB testing this because some markets are just Waymo app. Some of them are Waymo in Uber, and it's very clear that they're running like an experiment.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Anyway
Speaker 3:Yeah. We'll see. Yeah. It'll be I mean, right now, Waymo is quite a bit more expensive on a per trip basis than Uber. And so it's possible the rideshare market, you know, used to be bifurcated a little bit between Uber and Lyft.
Speaker 3:Lyft was always, you know I remember when I was in college, I was using Lyft more because it was, like, slightly cheaper.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And it's possible that Waymo ends up becoming like more of a luxury good and people will just have the Waymo app and and and more price sensitive consumers are just sticking with Uber. So we'll see.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Before our next guest joins, let me tell you about fin dot a I, the number one AI agent. If you want your AI to handle customer support, go to fin.ai. Our next guest is Drew Husson from Dropbox. Super excited for this one.
Speaker 1:For the show. Drew, how are doing?
Speaker 8:What's happening? How's going, guys?
Speaker 1:Great to see you.
Speaker 3:We've been excited for this one.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Very, very excited. Where should we start? I I are are you are you a Waymo fan? Are you an Uber fan?
Speaker 1:We were debating, like, where does the consumer experience go? I mean, I I I know you're probably in the position where you might not have to choose, but, it it it's an interesting question in my mind of, like, will people want the the, you know, the super app for that can get them the robot taxi or the human, long term or if, folks just wind up moving over to Waymo entirely.
Speaker 4:Yeah. I mean, I think it's gonna be interesting to see how fast it diffuses. I mean, I think there's still like that or that that, like, quality problem, and they're getting that, like, third nine, fourth nine, fifth nine. Yeah. I mean, that's really what's and talked about that on why agents are gonna be further away than people think.
Speaker 4:And so but, I mean, I think it's I mean, SF, it's, like, pretty well established. So I think that's probably a sign of what's to come.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Did the did the Carpathi did the Carpathi podcast, like, update you on Dropbox's strategy at all, or was it something that you were already hearing, like, rumbles of and you were like, okay. Now I have, like, permission to fully write that to long term memory, Or how how were you processing it? You know? Because I think they were like there there was nothing there that was, like, completely, oh, no one has ever given this take before.
Speaker 1:It was more like no one has ever said it in this context with this authority.
Speaker 3:It was it was was somebody whose opinion holds a lot of weight Yeah. That isn't like waiting didn't feel like he's waiting out for the next like big tender offer. You know? No. Totally.
Speaker 3:So it's like he Yeah. Was felt like less conflicted than some of the other opinions that that get shared.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Totally. Yeah. No. I'm very aligned with it.
Speaker 4:I I don't think there was to your point, I don't think there was, like, a lot of new or, you know, I agree with a lot of these themes that the industry has been thinking about for a while. But, yeah, sort of like a splash of sobriety on the space. And I and I think self driving is a good comp in some ways for, like, why this why AI or AGI or this, like, fast takeoff might, you know, not be as quick or on the on the kind of timelines that people are thinking about because
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 4:And, you know, Karpati talks about this March '9. It's like, it's the same amount of work to go from, like, 90% reliability. That's, like, one unit of work. Then to get to nine 99 is, like, the same amount of work than
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 4:99.9. I mean, we've certainly seen that in our as we've worked with AI and as we just work on reliability in general, I think that's that's very consistent. And I think
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Yeah. The self driving car took the world or captured the world's imagination, like, fifteen years ago, and yet it's these, like, more intermediate forms of automation that are that come way before autonomy that create a lot of the commercial value and get a lot more adoption. So for example, like, there's, like, billions of users of Google Maps today, but, you know, maybe thousands of people are gonna get into Waymo today. Yeah. And then same thing for, like, know, Highway Assist or what Tesla's done or some of these intermediate forms of self driving that have maybe millions of users.
Speaker 4:And so we think about that a lot as we deploy AI, and, you know, you don't wanna be either too early or too late, both with tech in general, but also with automation for sure. Yeah.
Speaker 1:It feels like if you watch the Carpathi episode on Friday and you walked into the office on Monday and, like, ripped up your whole plan, like, something's maybe gone wrong with your leadership style. But but it is an interesting frame to think about it in the decade of agents framing. And I'm wondering, like, you've been at this for two decades now. Correct? Like, roughly?
Speaker 1:Yeah. And and so you're you're, like, fully equipped to think in decades because you have literally thought in decades multiple times. Right? And so I'm wondering how you're thinking about the next decade. Like, in ten years, what if things play out kind of to the mid case and we get a lot of really powerful AI systems, but they don't come next quarter?
Speaker 1:How do you set your company up to actually capitalize fully over, like, a nice long decade of just solid execution?
Speaker 4:Yeah. Well, I think when AI first came along, people's imaginations immediately went to, like, you know, sci fi movies and sort of the one omniscient, omnipotent AI assistant. But for a while, yeah, I think, like, looking at I was surprised when I was, you know, 30 when self driving first came out. Was like, oh, yeah. Maybe maybe millions of people will be off the road.
Speaker 4:Maybe we'll never see another human
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Behind the wheel when we go to work. And it just, like, took a lot longer. And and then I've been working with, like even when you're just designing, like, systems with engineering and and certainly as you start to apply machine intelligence, you see these dynamics where it's, like, the demos look super good and sort of convince you that it's, like, right around the corner. But then when you actually scale these things up, it's a lot harder than it looks. And so we saw that even before AI with, like, Dropbox to begin with.
Speaker 4:Like, we could make a very good demo or a video, like, in the first couple months, but then to roll it out at, like, mission critical and massive or to roll out such mission critical product at massive scale, you know, you can't have a bad day, and that just takes a lot more engineering. And then we see that with our AI products today. So, I mean, we're at and along the we we wanna build the omniscient, you know, omnipotent AI agent too. But when we actually look at you like, look at customers and look on their screens, the more basic problem that people have that AI can help with today is just that, like, if your screen's a mess. Like, work is a mess.
Speaker 4:You know, like, a 100 tabs open. You know, you're working across Google and Slack and your email and Dropbox and a, you know, dozen other things. And, you know, the question I started with is, like, how much is AI helping with that? Yeah. And the answer is, like, zero or negative.
Speaker 3:Yeah. The the other thing is I'm sure reliability was, like, a core focus for Dropbox during the early days because if you're, like, a online file storage and then, like, 1% of the time, like, a file just, like, disappears into the ether. It's not saved and then the the the user, you know, might have lost it forever and that's, like, going to stick in their brain forever. And so, like, reliability at Dropbox means, like, 99.9999999 Forever. And and it feels like the industry in, you know, spending a decade building SaaS and building SaaS, it was pretty reliable.
Speaker 3:And and having, like, a bunch of infrastructure that makes it easier to deliver reliability, maybe forgot how, like, how important it is. And if you have an AI agent that that does an amazing job 90% of the time and just totally botches botches it, 10% of the time it's not ready for production. And so you can have these magical And I think in the context of, like, customer support is a big one. It's like, is your agent ready for production? If it if, like, 95% of the time, it it it solves the consumer's problem, but 5% of the time, it makes them, like, pissed off and they're just, talk to a human.
Speaker 3:Talk to a human. You know? And they're just running down that that that conversation. But
Speaker 4:Yeah. Well, I mean, even if and once you get up to a million users, even if you have a 95 or 99% success rate, that's still, like, thousands or 10 thousands tens of thousands of people having, like, a really terrible experience, like, every day. And this was actually part of the motivation why I started Dropbox. Like, step one was not, like, create Dropbox. Step one was, like, use all these other services Yeah.
Speaker 4:And, like, have all these near misses or or things were, wait. What happened to my, like, tax return? I it was just here a second ago. Where did it go? And going into the support forums of these other competitive like, well, these other companies, these other products that claim to do this on paper, But then you go in the support forums, and it's like a battlefield medical tent.
Speaker 4:Like, people are like, oh my god. What happened to my wedding photos? And where's this? And where's and I was like, I, like, can't believe that, you know, these things are so brittle. I'm gonna be putting my most important stuff in here even just as a customer of one like me.
Speaker 4:Like, I need something that I can trust. And and then that took a lot more, like, engineering rigor and discipline than we'd seen in the space.
Speaker 1:We've been getting into barnyard analogies around here. I wanna take you through one, and, I'd love your feedback. So, we we we think about a lot of the a lot of the dynamics between the various players in enterprise software and foundation models as, potentially mimicking the experience of a fox and a henhouse. And, and it might be the job of the CEO of the henhouse not to let the fox in the henhouse. And I'm wondering if that resonates with you at all in terms of, if I'm a foundation model company, I say, hey.
Speaker 1:I'd love to provide a bunch of great AI tooling to my customers, your customers, both. I will need all of your data forever, and I will need, you know, to significantly erode your mode or your customer retention. Like, is the job of the CEO right now to protect the henhouse or go on the attack and be more fox like? Like, how help me walk through this from your perspective.
Speaker 4:Well, I mean, I think when it comes to using AI, it it depends. I mean, first is, and it depends what your business is doing and and how you're using it and so on. I think, I mean, certainly, the CEO's responsibility to, like, strategically position their company and Yeah. Mitigate risk and things like that. But, certainly, every CEO is thinking about how do I, like, usefully deploy AI.
Speaker 4:And so I think it helps to have an understanding of the technology. I think it it's important to, like, know who you're working with and what their incentives are. To your point, you know, hand houses, like you know, I think a lot people have apprehension about using some of these or or about working with the a foundation model company Yeah. Whose whole business revolves around, like, taking data and sort of grinding it up into pellets for training the next one.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 4:And, you know, you watch Sora videos or whatever, and you're like, that comes from somewhere. Yeah. Probably not their artists. So so I think and, you know, it certainly in our business, that trust and privacy True. And not having incentive conflicts of, like, not advertising, not training foundation models is super important as, you know, all of our customers think about, you know, who should we partner with.
Speaker 1:So so is there a little bit of a tension there where you you need to keep customer trust high and let them know that we're going to get you these AI features, but in the Dropbox way that is actually fully integrated, and we're not just gonna take your customer record or your data and sell it off the back of the truck just to pull something forward, and that actually layers into, like, the customer experience. Like, you might be a couple months behind on a certain thing, but it's gonna wind up with a better experience over time. Is that accurate?
Speaker 4:Yeah. And I think it's all of the above. I think it has this it starts with just, like, your business and your incentives. Like, you have to design some of this in from the beginning. Like, you know, we could probably be make more money or be more profitable if we did advertising, for example.
Speaker 4:Right? And so and a lot of scaled you know, the the predominant scaled business model on the Internet for certainly for consumers is is advertising, and we're like, you know, we're just gonna draw a hard line. We're never we're just not gonna do that because of this trust conflict or this incentive conflict
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 4:We would have. And even if we're even if our intentions are good, it's like customers just have to wonder. Right? And so and then that becomes a big advantage because then we've been, like, living up to that for the last eighteen years, and we have a track record of
Speaker 3:What what is the specific concern if if you were running effectively display ads? Is it privacy of of, like, I don't want you to use my data to target me with more ads?
Speaker 4:Yeah. And, really, this is up to our customers, not us. It doesn't really matter what we think. It really matters what they think. And I think, yeah, everybody feels a little weird when it's, like, the equivalent of, like even just, like, the TV in your living room, if it starts showing you like, if it's, like, a smart TV that's showing it starts showing you ads you didn't ask for, you know, it's like, woah.
Speaker 4:There's an invasion of privacy here. And so you have to be super sensitive to the psychology, of your users. But I think at a more fundamental level
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:The other thing is, like, nontargeted ad.
Speaker 1:Not Imagining I imagine the worst possible scenario that you were 100% not doing where the the file storage company edits ads into my files. So I'm like, wait a minute. I saved my high school transcript, and now on page six of this PDF, they edited it in
Speaker 5:an ad.
Speaker 3:Well, the the other thing is, like, non targeted ads are really frustrating because I I remember in college I bought a Kindle. Yeah. There was an option. It was like, do you want the ad supported I
Speaker 1:went with the ad supported website.
Speaker 3:It's a very Amazon move is to be like, okay, for a $100, you can get the ad for a 120, you can buy it. And I'm a college student.
Speaker 4:I got the bougie one. I got the new ads.
Speaker 3:Oh. I So but but then I was getting like the the ads that that were that when I had this that were popular were like the most it was like romantic novels Yeah. And stuff like that. Like books that I wasn't reading. So my you know, I'd be sitting there and it'd be like
Speaker 1:Just absorb my entire life so you can target me with something cool for once. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting.
Speaker 4:And and the other thing is I think you have to focus. I get to really be selective about the problems you solve and, like, figure about, okay. How do we take what we do today and build on that in a ways in a way that makes sense for, like, today's context? So for us, I mean, we always took care of your files. These are already, like, your most important information.
Speaker 4:But as we all know, like, what used to be a 100 files on our desktops, now a 100 tabs in our browser.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 4:And then the big a lot of the pain points we have are, like, you know, instead of one search box or at home, I can Google anything from one place, search all of human knowledge. I go to work. I've got, like, 10 different search boxes. My experience is totally fragmented. And that's what I was living personally.
Speaker 4:That's what my company is living. That's what all of us are living. I mean, look under my Zoom window. It's all you know, we're all dealing with the same thing.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 4:And so we're like, alright. Let's extend AI into that new world in, like, a valuable way. Let's give people that one search box. So let's and then another problem with AI is that our industry is training these is spending trillions of dollars to train these models that can do, like, quantum physics, but don't know about can't find your q two board tech.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And so
Speaker 4:and the the missing link there is, like, AI, these models can only be as smart as the context that you provide them. And that's really the bottleneck, and, like, no one's focusing on that. And we that's why that's how, like, we have this new product, Dropbox Dash, which really aims to close that context gap and finally connect your AI to to everything at work. And so on the surface, it's a AI assistant. It's a search engine.
Speaker 4:It connects it it knows about you. It knows about your work. It knows about your company. It connects to all of your work apps. And unlike with a consumer AI tool or, you know, where there's a lot of questions.
Speaker 4:It it can answer a lot of questions, but a lot of questions it can't answer. So if you ask, like, when does our office lease expire or where is that slide from last year's product launch, ChattyPT can't tell you because it's not connected to your stuff. And, you know, and then Copilot doesn't know about your Slack, and Gemini doesn't know about your Salesforce. And so that's where Dash comes in to build this, like, universal context layer. And the front end is really around search and and an AI assistant because that's what people understand.
Speaker 4:Yeah. But here's but we're like, is a natural evolution for us. Dropbox has always been about organizing and sharing your information or, like, organizing, sharing your most important information, connecting to every ecosystem, being trusted, having this track record of reliability and security. Okay. How can we what what is the manifestation of AI in our world that actually makes sense, and where is there a new problem that hasn't
Speaker 1:been solved? I I think this is, like, the perfect strategy for you right now because I the we had this like, search was great, and then we wound up generating so much data that search I personally, not a judgment on you particularly, but across all of my services, whether it's iMessage, Gmail. We talk about it all the time. It's not to to hate on you. This is a Nate, this is a technology wide thing.
Speaker 1:Search got really slow and and not as accurate, and it would there were so many cookies that it was picking up. Like, it would just get confused. And then we got, like, GPT five, deep research. Like, the thing that can go work for twenty minutes to get you exactly what you need. And it's like, okay.
Speaker 1:Now we need to actually bring these two things together and get really performance something in the middle and then size them. And you see this with the model router in the in the consumer product, but to actually bring something like this in the in the business context makes so much so much sense. So Yeah. I love that the pitch is not is not ASI for your drive to read your documents. You know?
Speaker 1:It's like Yeah.
Speaker 4:Hey. I mean, we're excited about that too eventually. But, you know, if that's know, in self driving, have, like, level five, full autonomy, like, totally self driving, human out of the loop. But a lot of the commercial value gets created at, like, the level one, level two. Like, alright.
Speaker 4:Let's give people a working search box. Let's actually give them AI that actually knows about their work. These are gonna be the big businesses that get built along the way to that, you know, super intelligence.
Speaker 3:Yep. Zooming out, and and kind of going away from what's happening at the product level, like, what is the what is your updated kind of strategy around running the business and capital allocation? I know you're the single largest shareholder at somewhere around 20%. You've been buying back a bunch of shares, but, like, what is your what is, like, the the strategy and kind of pitch on on that front?
Speaker 4:Well, mainly investing for growth. I mean, Dropbox has always been a pretty profitable business. I mean, we took a lot of the consumer Internet playbook in the beginning Yeah. And built these, like, self serve viral product led motion that was able to scale to millions of or, you know, hundreds of millions of people, millions of businesses. We have half a million paying businesses on Dropbox, two and a half billion in revenue.
Speaker 4:But, you know, the the new yeah. There we go.
Speaker 3:Hit that Gong, Gong.
Speaker 1:Yeah. We gotta hit the actual
Speaker 3:Yeah. For 2 and half billion of revenue.
Speaker 6:Sorry. Creating
Speaker 3:product led growth. We get we get excited about big numbers. The godfather Are are you the godfather of product led growth? Is that fair to say?
Speaker 4:I don't think I'm allowed to call myself anything.
Speaker 3:Well, I'm allowed to call. I'm calling you the godfather of product led growth.
Speaker 1:No. No. The I mean, if if if you if anyone listening is not familiar with the Dropbox playbook, like, please go study it. It it is a clinic for for value creation. It's a fantastic story.
Speaker 4:Yeah. And and, you know, we're doing that again. We're running a lot of the same playbook with Dash. And I talked a little about search and
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 4:And AI this sort of AI chat piece. But we're also just thinking very fundamentally about, like, all the things we kinda lost as we went from kind of file and PC world into the browser and the cloud. And then and then it's not just search or AI. There's even just the concept of organizing things as you were talking about. People are like, somehow we all got convinced that searching for things is, like, a substitute for organizing things, and it's just not really true in that, you know, all along the way, we had files have folders, songs have playlists, but you think, like, links have.
Speaker 4:Right? There's no, like, container, like, a collection
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 4:Of there's no way to, like, have a collection of mixed format stuff if you have, like, a Google Doc and a 10 gig four k video and an Airtable. There's no way to still organize. So we're we have something called stacks probably about to show up on this video Nice. That does that. But, yeah, I mean, just looking at these very basic problems hidden in plain sight and, you know, you give people a search box that works, let people that talk to all their stuff in natural language Yep.
Speaker 4:Organize their stuff for them, you know, go beyond documents to organize your images and videos. And so a lot of ways, I that where I'm putting our capital is just building the version of Dropbox that I would want to have today, which is and Dash is step one in that direction.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And there's I I mean, we've covered a number of companies that have been going after enterprise search, and it feels like you were and and many of them have been able to achieve pretty wild valuations in a short period of time. But, of course, you're not asleep at the wheel thinking, I don't I don't wanna I don't wanna dominate that market too. So it's it's it's awesome. Yeah.
Speaker 4:Well, and then I think that the big thing our customers really want or or where Dash fits in there versus Glean or some other companies is, like, you don't have to spend six months and $50 to get started. And so one of the things we're launching today is, like, a truly self serve version of Dash where you can just download it, get your team up and running, link your apps, and just go. And that's something I think that's really been missing because there's a lot of you know, there's a bit of a knife fight in the enterprise around a lot of different things. But then we look at any most of our customers in in the SMB segment or lower mid market, there's a huge swath of the market has no options. And so we think it took a lot longer because it's, like, hard to make these things totally self serve, But that's what we've done with Dash.
Speaker 4:And and, again, it's sort of like it's the version of Dropbox I would build for today's context.
Speaker 1:Fantastic. Cool. We won't keep you any longer. Obviously, you're very busy. We really appreciate
Speaker 3:your to the whole team on the launch. Yeah.
Speaker 4:Appreciate it. And we're super proud of it.
Speaker 3:And, next time, come on in person, come hang out in the UltraDome.
Speaker 1:And put on a
Speaker 4:For sure.
Speaker 1:Growth clinic. I'm sure a lot of people would benefit from, learning some of the some of the story because From the godfather himself. Yeah. It's a fantastic one. The godfather.
Speaker 1:Thanks so much for coming on the show. We'll talk
Speaker 3:you We'll
Speaker 1:talk to you soon. Up next, have Adam Fry from OpenAI. That rhymes. I like that. The product lead for ChatGPT Atlas.
Speaker 1:We're diving into the browser wars. The the the new web browser from OpenAI had a phenomenal response. I don't know if you saw how many folks saw the YouTube video. I think it has over a million views now, But we will talk to Adam Fry about it. Welcome to the stream, Adam.
Speaker 3:How are you doing? Welcome.
Speaker 8:Doing very well. Nice to meet you.
Speaker 3:Busy busy couple days for you.
Speaker 8:Yeah. It's been a bit of a whirlwind. I think just like you said, there's been such a big outpour of a reaction. We're so excited to see the reaction and so excited that people get to use ChatGPT Atlas now.
Speaker 1:This is not GPU constrained at all. Right? Like, I mean, obviously, it's like a it it it interfaces with your core pool of GPUs, but it's not like a new, like, an entirely new provision of GPUs. Right?
Speaker 8:Yeah. That's right. So, you know, it's it's available to everyone.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 8:So ChatGPT Atlas, you can go to the download link. You can download it. It's available. Free, plus, pro, everyone.
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 8:You know, the agent part of it, which I know you guys are savvy about and we've talked to our colleagues before, you know, that is more compute intensive. And so if you use some of the more advanced features of ChatGPT Atlas where you ask ChatGPT to go do things
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 8:That can be more GPU, intensive for our paid users for sure.
Speaker 1:Is there an incentive to set people I saw a screenshot, but you never know what's real anymore. That that if you set Atlas as your default, you can increase your ChatGPT subscription limits. Is there some sort of incentive? We were just talking to Drew from, Dropbox about, you know, product led growth, how you actually, you know, increase customer adoption. Is there something going on there that you can tell us about?
Speaker 8:For sure. So, you know, ChatGPT Atlas is, you know, it's a browser, and that's sort of at the core of what you do every day. It's sort of your operating system for your life, whether it's personal or at work. And so, you know, part of that is we wanted to really we felt like the more people use it, you sort of discover these AI features. I think you guys have talked about this a lot in your show, but, you know, this new generation of browsers, there's a lot to discover.
Speaker 8:You have to learn how to use Chatuche BT in your normal workflow.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 8:And so we've really wanted to incentivize to people to really give it a shot. And the best part of these new browsers is using ChatGPT everywhere you go across the web. And so one of the things that we did to start this off was if you give it a shot for a week as a default browser, you can sort of extend your limits and really allow you to test out all those AI features.
Speaker 3:That's cool. What what was, was it always obvious that ChatGPT would would build a standalone browser or was there somewhat of a debate internally? I always felt like ChatGPT was a web browser. Right? It felt like it was browsing the web on my behalf Yeah.
Speaker 3:And serving it up in an interface. And so it feels like it almost feels like this is the second browser that you guys are doing, but you're going and building something that looks more like a traditional browser.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 8:It's such a good point. You know, there's that great stat of, you know, if you ask people off the street, you know, what browser do you use? Most people actually don't even know what browser that they use because the concept doesn't always make sense. Yep. And so, you know, it wasn't obvious, but what it really started from was a very specific user insight.
Speaker 8:You know, we were seeing you you guys probably felt this when you used ChatGPT, but you're on chatgpt.chatgpt.com. You're in a million tabs. You're doing a whole bunch of other stuff. You're in your docs. You're you're planning for your next show.
Speaker 8:You're, like, copying and pasting back and forth between ChatGPT and all the things you're doing.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 8:And so we just sort of sat back and said, you know, if ChatGPT is gonna be more and more helpful for you over time, and people are gonna rely on it more and more for the work that they do for their personal life, it has to be able to coexist where you're doing that work. And that that's what the browser is, is, you know, where you're doing your work. And so we said, how can we actually bring ChatGPT into that when you invite it in to actually have the context of what you're working on? And I think that that spark of an insight was really once you believe that, we were like, oh, yeah. Building ChatuchPutty Atlas is is of course, we've gotta do that.
Speaker 3:What, how how are you guys thinking about what success looks like with the product over the next few months? I think you have an immense amount of pressure, obviously, that the ChatGPT retention data was flowing around the Internet over the last over the last and it's kinda hard to hard to fast follow that because if set set the bar
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:You know, here. But how how how are you thinking about it and how and and then I kinda have a follow-up question around, like, you have hundreds of millions of happy active users that you can be porting over to Atlas over time. But, maybe first, like, yeah, what does success look like in the first, weeks and months?
Speaker 8:Yeah. Great question. So the the start is we think of it as a multiyear journey. Right? People have been using browsers forever.
Speaker 8:And you're probably your existing one you've been using for ten, twenty years. And so it's you know, building a browser is sort of like we joke. It's like, you're moving around the furniture in someone's home. You know, you you know exactly where this is. You know exactly where that is.
Speaker 8:And so change is gonna take time. So we measure success over the long run. We wanna be as helpful to our users as possible. But in the short term, you know, we're focused on retention. You know, we're focused on for the people who are giving it a shot, which is a lot of people because people are really excited about this.
Speaker 8:You know, are they sticking with it? And, you know, are they loving it? Are they sort of diving in deeper to using chat throughout, you know, as they browse the web to get advice on whatever they're working on as they go? And if we see those signals, which we're starting to see, that's when we sort of, you know, pour on the fire and and and sort of grow it and grow it. But so short term retention, but we also understand this is this is a long term game for browsers and, you know, we're investing heavily for a long time in it.
Speaker 1:Are you thinking about a mobile version?
Speaker 8:We are bringing experiences, Atlas to mobile and to Windows. And so the team is, you know, furiously working on it. We wanna bring it to as many people as we possibly can. That's why we brought it to all of our free users, all of our paid, all of our pro right away globally.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 8:We think we've got a great browser. We're really excited for people to keep using it.
Speaker 1:Very fun. Yeah. It's gonna be, big shoes to fill since Sora rocketed straight to the top of the App Store when you go, when you go live on there. I'm sure it'll
Speaker 3:I be think I think Adam can take it to the top again.
Speaker 1:I love it.
Speaker 3:I'm a believer.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I No credit. I I I love the framing of it being, like, a longer a longer journey. Like, it just does seem like, there's not going to be, like, the Sam Altman stealing GPUs moment for the browser where it just goes viral, and everyone's like, I gotta check this out. Right?
Speaker 1:It's very hard to, like, accelerate something that's a productivity tool. And so having that mindset, makes a ton of sense. I'm wondering about new new patterns, new language, new archetypes of features that, we might be talking about in a few years after this all rolls out, if you see any glimpses of this. The thing that I'm thinking about is I was talking to someone on our team about Chrome extensions, and I was thinking about what the extension looks like in the future. And if there's some sort of, like, I've I've prompted an agent to do a certain workflow so many times that then it kind of collapses it into some UI, and it places it somewhere in the browser.
Speaker 1:And it's like it's almost writing, like, the custom software. Like, there's you see I'm kind of, like, painting a bunch of splatter on the canvas, but there's something there. How do you think about, like, these new patterns? How much will your thumb be on the scale, or do you want the community to customize things? Like, where does the line drawn?
Speaker 1:How are you thinking about that?
Speaker 8:Yeah. So there's probably three three big things when I look forward a couple years that I'm really excited about. So the first is, you know, part of this Atlas launch was the agent in your browser where it can take action. It brings up a cursor. It does things for you.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 8:I'm really excited for that as it gets better. So it's still early research preview, but it's starting to do tasks where we've seen it actually be helpful in a short amount of time. And I'm really excited for proactivity around that. Eventually, you can actually suggest, hey, I've already drafted five emails for you. What do you think?
Speaker 8:Mhmm. You don't even have to task it. And so there's this sort of proactive world of the agents that I think is gonna be really, really interesting and valuable for folks. The second is working with developers. Think, you know, as it's more computer to computer interaction, if you have an agent that you're delegating to to go, you know, write a document or go to a website, those websites will evolve to work better with a software that is actually going and clicking around.
Speaker 8:And we just are sort of scratching the surface. We're teaching these computers to click around the way that we have. But I think eventually the Internet and website will evolve to co work with agents to make things more productive for everyone. And then the third is, you know, I think eventually models will be really good to create their own sort of applications within the browser. And so I think there's so many amazing places that this is gonna go And this is just sort of the beginning of this journey.
Speaker 8:And I think to Jordi's point earlier, ChatGPT is already so retentive. If you can bring ChatGPT into the browser like we have with Atlas today, it's already gonna be so helpful to your life and then it's just gonna get better from there.
Speaker 3:Yeah. You guys need to figure out Did
Speaker 1:you share any numbers with us? I wanna
Speaker 3:Well, you gotta we gotta was gonna say like Maybe just the number of YouTube videos. Think I think the, you know, the the most recent comp that we have to like a scaled consumer tech company launching an ambitious product in a super competitive market was was Meta launching threads. Yeah. And when there's this early excitement around a product, you can see, you know, massive amount of, like, downloads. And then people were ready to call threads, you know, basically say, like, okay, it's over.
Speaker 3:Like, good, nice, good effort, basically. And then Meta figured out kind of the right Woah. Flow to get people to, you know, cultivate like a unique community there, get people moving over there consistently. And so I I would expect to see something similar out of Atlas and that I think a lot of downloads and excitement and usage early. Some people will churn, but you have that massive base of users that you can continue to, you know, show them.
Speaker 3:Like, if they do the right prompt in ChatGPT, it's like, you know, I can do this on your behalf over here if you, like, if if if you'd like. So excited to see how this plays out.
Speaker 8:Yeah. And I think the key thing there is focus to an investment. And, you know, I get to speak on behalf of the team that's working on this, but they're over there working on it right now, just making it better and better. So if you stick with it and you look at the small signals, the small paper cuts that people are telling you about, we just keep filling them, keep getting better. It's that's when your retention goes up.
Speaker 8:That's when people really enjoy your product. So, you know, the launch is one thing. We couldn't be more excited. The reception to your question has been immense. Lots of downloads, but, not sharing any numbers today.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 8:But, it's really about do people stick around and we have to keep working on that to earn that from people.
Speaker 1:Totally. Makes a
Speaker 3:ton of sense. Well, we'll hit the gong once you're charting.
Speaker 1:Okay. I was ready to go.
Speaker 3:I was ready to go.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much.
Speaker 3:Congratulations on the on the launch.
Speaker 1:Yeah. This is great.
Speaker 8:Thank you guys for having me on. It's it's such a blast. Appreciate it.
Speaker 1:Awesome. It was great time.
Speaker 2:We'll talk
Speaker 1:to you soon. Cheers. Our next guest is Ian Rogers from Ledger. He believes he's already in the Restream waiting room.
Speaker 3:Ryan in the chat. Have to address it. Yes. Well, Taylor says he laughs and says, it's a good Chromium wrapper, sir.
Speaker 1:Think big things have small beginnings.
Speaker 3:Chromium wrapper company of California. No. I think I I I think that they have the incredible advantage of being able to have Yeah. You know, massive user base and get people over there, continue to iterate. And, it's just
Speaker 1:You know what you know what else is crazy? I mean, Versus Code story. Like like like, the the browser wars look a lot lot less crazy when you think about what happened to Versus Code, open source code editor. You get Windsurf. You get, Cursor.
Speaker 1:Like, people really did build serious businesses off of those. Anyway, we can talk about that more later. For now, we have Ian Rogers from Ledger in the restroom waiting room. Let's bring him into the TVP in Ultradome. How are
Speaker 2:doing? Happening?
Speaker 11:And I just came from that. So this is what I was wearing and I'm like, wait a minute, my living room. Should I put my pajamas on? Like, what's what's appropriate here? But you know, you guys are always dressed sharp so I thought, you know what, I'll just keep the I'll just keep the jacket on.
Speaker 11:You know, even though it feels a little out of place in my living room, I gotta be honest.
Speaker 1:I did not think that this week we'd be talking to someone in Paris
Speaker 3:At the Sea security. Of
Speaker 1:Tell us what Ledger does. How are you gonna say how are you gonna store my valuables reliably?
Speaker 3:Not focus on royal jewel.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 3:Otherwise, may not have
Speaker 1:By the
Speaker 11:way, I had I had coffee at ledger with a number two from the Louvre last Tuesday morning. I was asking him like, you know, how tell him what's it like to tell me about the job? And he's, god, you know, pretty pretty pretty mellow long term. We think long term horizons, these sort of thing. Wow.
Speaker 11:That that job got
Speaker 1:got a
Speaker 11:lot more interesting
Speaker 1:It did. It did.
Speaker 11:Over the weekend.
Speaker 1:But anyway, yeah. How how do you introduce the company now? Give us the general update.
Speaker 11:So Ledger's been around for eleven years
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 6:Which is
Speaker 11:a very long time in in the world of crypto, but really always doing the same thing. You know, it started with this this simple idea that we have these amazing devices, phones and computers, but they were meant to share information, not protect value, you know, fundamentally. And if we're going to have digital value in our lives and if especially if kind of the main invention of this new digital value, Bitcoin, etcetera, is permissionless money, Well, then you have self custody and if self custody then security is paramount. So let's let's, you know, use secure element chips to protect private keys. And that, you know, that started with with really one purpose Bitcoin, But, you know, then we've had much more cryptocurrency.
Speaker 11:But actually the fact is you can use that same device to to secure anything. So pass keys, identity, you know, we live increasingly digital lives and proof is increasingly important and therefore security. So the other interesting thing about the way it's if you think about it the technology and where it comes from, it's this smart card technology. So it's the same chip that's in your credit card or your passport, but where your credit card protects the secrets of the bank and your passport protects the secrets of the government, right, from you because you have it in your possession, you're not supposed to hack it. This is using that same technology to protect the secrets of the user or of the consumer, which is pretty powerful.
Speaker 11:Especially, I mean, I I was listening to to your interview about OpenAI going into a world of agentic AI. Yeah. We will need to prove our humanness. It would be nice if we could own our own preferences and then, you know, federate them to the apps that we use. And I'm not sure I want to shove my credit card into that agent.
Speaker 11:I'd rather ask me, you know, before it booked the flight, you know, like Yep. Here's the info. Do you would you like to verify this transaction on a secure screen? Yes. I would.
Speaker 11:Thank you. You know? Yeah. So it's it's that. And today, we announced a new a new product, but that's what we've been doing for a few years now.
Speaker 1:Yeah. What's what's different about the new product? I feel like Ledger's like it feels like something in a way it's like great idea solved and so I'm interested to know what's happening with like an with the iteration cycle.
Speaker 11:Yeah. So we have this product that people are very familiar with the Ledger Nano Yeah. Which is it's just like it's the swivel, it folds out Yeah. And you've you've seen it, Which, know, and if if when it's kind of the Air Jordan of of crypto, like if somebody needs a physical representation of crypto, they they include a picture of the
Speaker 5:Oh, yeah.
Speaker 11:Of the ledger in it. But with with Tony Fadell, who is, you know, the the the founder of the the pod father. He created the iPod and co invented the iPhone and founded Nest. I mean, you guys will appreciate this. When I started this job, I told Tony, I said, yeah, I'm gonna run the consumer business for Ledger.
Speaker 11:And he said, there is no consumer business. That business is business to geek. Know, your job is to make a consumer business. Right? And so we we started making these secure touchscreen devices.
Speaker 11:So he designed one that's beautiful. It's called Ledger Stacks. It's the world's first curved e ink display. So where a Kindle screen is silicon on glass, this is an organic substrate on plastic and you get this this five millimeter curve and you know it's Tony. He he can envision the the circuit board and and the billboard at the same time.
Speaker 11:But that that screen first ever any first product to have an organic TFT took longer than we thought and the screen ended up costing more than we thought and then the product is in market for a higher price than we had hoped for. So we we built a that would that's that retails at $3.99. Mhmm. And then we built another one. It's a a beautiful device called Ledger Flex, steel case, really nice e ink screen, but that clocked in at $2.49.
Speaker 11:And what we really wanted to do was to do this secure touchscreen but at the at the price of a Nano X, which is which is, you know, one of our most popular models of all time. So this is the one that we introduced today. This is this is the Ledger this this is the Nano Gen five, and this is on sale today for $1.79. So here you can see what the you know what the what the box looks like. And that's so that's what we that's what we did today.
Speaker 11:The other thing we did today is announce a bunch of features in the software because really I mean, you know, the point kind of to the point you were making earlier, it's not about hardware, it's about what can you do with it, you know. And and you know these these devices they started as one thing, this long term investment asset you know, Bitcoin. That was what it was for. But now you it's all assets because it's you know token tokenized, you know, RWAs, tokenized stocks. It's also you know a yield bearing savings account with stable coins these days and it's a spending account as well because we have a credit card that's a well, it's actually a debit card, a crypto debit card that pays Bitcoin rewards.
Speaker 11:So it's so much more, you know, you can do we support 10,000 tokens, know, a 100% of the top 100 tokens. So it's really, you know, it's a it's it's a financial tool in your in your in your pocket and a secure one which is which your phone is not.
Speaker 3:Talk a little bit more yeah. I love I love how many different like, really thinking about the full suite and just building these, like, purpose built devices for different use cases. Talk about, I guess, more you mentioned earlier if you have agents operating in the world on your behalf, specifically online, like, how how you guys are thinking and kind of even timeline there because I think, this is top of mind for a lot of people that are realizing, like, okay, I'm gonna have a browser that's not just like a window into the web and a way for me to enter into forms, but it'll be acting on my behalf. And if it's gonna be like moving money or doing anything else or or submitting my information somewhere, like, wanna have more, you know, real control over that. So I guess wanted to kinda hear more about how you guys are thinking about that opportunity in the context of Ledger's business.
Speaker 11:Yeah. I mean, I I guess the way I think about this, I think about it all in context. Right? What what was the Internet really? Two computers could talk to each other.
Speaker 11:We get this revolution of information. What is blockchain? Well, blockchain is the ability to to issue and trade, really. Right? So I can and I can I can we talk about scarcity, but it's really about issuance and and trading, you know, the kind of what's the the core building block?
Speaker 11:And then, you know, with with AI, we have, you know, super intelligence and ultimately things that we can delegate tasks to that will act on our behalf. But if they're gonna act on our behalf, then they have to represent us out there. Right? Yep. And also, when we're interacting with other people, we need to know who it is we're interacting with.
Speaker 11:And, you know, so also I think those those things need to be, you know, machine readable. So interestingly, in both cases, you're talking about tokens. Right? We're talking we talk about eating tokens in the case of AI, and we talk about issuing tokens in the case of in in the case of crypto. But what we're really talk what we mean when we say those things is we're talking about things that are machine readable and machine translatable.
Speaker 11:So I think that, you know, I think proof is actually a really important word to consider here. You know, how do you know this is me talking? How do you know these are the words that are coming out of this microphone? I think proof is going to become increasingly important. We already have it and a lot of a lot of companies are like trying to take this challenge head on.
Speaker 11:You know, Reddit is trying to to to know that someone's not a bot on the other side. You know, dating sites match.com has a big effort to try to know that someone's So how exactly are you doing that and you know, and who are you trusting? So I think trust brokers will become pretty important in the future. You know, like if I had I I could if if I said like, oh yeah. Here's a here's a a Warhol print and you'd be like, okay.
Speaker 11:Well, maybe it is, you know. But if Christie said it's a Warhol, he'd be like, yeah, probably is. They probably did the work. And that that's the same thing that we have in our lives with things like driver's licenses, you know. It's it's difficult to get a driver's license.
Speaker 11:It's easy to read one, you know. And I think we'll have we'll have a lot of those kinds of things where there's a trust broker. That trust broker will issue a token that says, you know, not only am I a human, but I'm a unique human. This Yeah. This token matches, you know, matches a passport.
Speaker 11:One passport, not multiple passports. And then, you know, and then a machine readable way, in a machine readable way, you know, we'll be able to kind of do a handshake where it's like, oh yeah, that's a real person. And you could use that in, you know, any context. Twitter, YouTube, or x YouTube, etcetera. Right?
Speaker 11:And so I I think that these kinds of, you know, this is this is like the super basic version. You know, the more the only slightly more complex version is that agent that they were talking about earlier in my browser, you know, it's gonna go book me a flight to Miami. Well, how? Have I given it my Delta login? Did I give it my credit card information?
Speaker 11:Like, you know, right now we live in this world where kind of our identity is locked behind all of these login password combinations across thousands of websites. Yeah. There's no need for that. That can all of that data could be owned by the individual just like we own, you know, our passport, our driver's license, and and other things. And then it's federated to those applications as needed.
Speaker 3:Yeah. It's
Speaker 11:really a much it's it's more scalable, it's more secure, it's a it's a much better and and it's less trust, you know. I think we're already, you know, I mean, I I haven't installed the OpenAI browser yet and I'm like, wow, do I really they've already got so much I
Speaker 1:have an idea. Have an idea.
Speaker 11:Bring
Speaker 1:it. A giant gong that you can store Bitcoin. Yes. What about that? What about that?
Speaker 1:The massive gong
Speaker 3:Pleasure gong.
Speaker 1:That you keep in your vault in your basement and you can store Bitcoin on it.
Speaker 3:You can smash it every time you want You
Speaker 1:could actually probably just sneak a little ledger nano up in the Gong and that would work fine. But I want the
Speaker 11:full Gong. Was holding back. I was ready to tell you guys. I was ready to Yeah.
Speaker 1:Give us some numbers. What you got?
Speaker 11:I was gonna say approximately 20% of all crypto is protected by ledger devices. I thought that was I was like, what can I give you that's worthy of a gong and
Speaker 3:That's that's insane? You guys probably Yeah. You got two two hits.
Speaker 1:We're we're we're we're running over
Speaker 3:I wanted to ask how what's the Parisian crypto scene like? It sounds cool and you seem really cool but but what what's what's it like on the ground?
Speaker 11:Thanks. I have to say the ledger party tonight was crazy. I barely escaped from there because there were just people in the street, know, going, can I get in? No. It's it really it's interesting here.
Speaker 11:I moved here ten years ago. I moved here ten years ago to work for LVMH and a lot. I mean I really you know I moved to LA in '95 and it felt you know like it was a million miles away from Silicon Valley at that time. You know what I mean? But then over time it it kind of grew into something that you know we we had a MySpace.
Speaker 11:We had a Snapchat. We had a you know like LA kind of came into its own. And I you feel the same thing here over ten years, know, like it's it's still France and France is not America when it comes to startups. That's for sure. But they've they've really I mean it's it's a there's so much going on here.
Speaker 11:It's really fun. Get over here. Let's do this. We we you know we'll give you the we'll give you the proper tool. I refuse.
Speaker 1:I refuse. I'm not I'm not leaving America. I'm sorry.
Speaker 3:Won't leave our borders but I I will. I'll take you up on that.
Speaker 11:Okay. Yeah. Come on over anytime. Does John have a passport?
Speaker 3:He does. Unfortunately, yes. Yeah he does but he
Speaker 1:doesn't like to say no to every international invitation.
Speaker 3:You go, John come over here we got we got seas and lakes and mountains. He's like we got seas and lakes and mountains over here.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Do they have the Indianapolis Five Hundred over there? Do they got the Kentucky Derby over there?
Speaker 11:No. Am by the way I am I am from Indiana.
Speaker 1:Go
Speaker 11:away. And and and you can and this I'll I'll give you a fun fact. Kid Rock is on record saying the only reason I would go to France is to visit Ian. So maybe John you come
Speaker 3:that's lore.
Speaker 1:That's deep lore.
Speaker 3:That's deep lore. Amazing. Ian, great to meet you. Congrats to the whole team on on the launch and thank you Thank
Speaker 11:you guys for having us
Speaker 3:securing on really 20% of all digital assets.
Speaker 1:Yes. Thank you for
Speaker 5:your service.
Speaker 1:We'll talk to you soon.
Speaker 3:Have a good
Speaker 11:day. I will see you again.
Speaker 1:Alright. Our next guest, Molly from Knox, is already in the Restream waiting room. We're gonna bring her in and ask her how she's going to let you interface with both iMessage and WhatsApp at the same time. Do I have that correct?
Speaker 9:Yes. You do.
Speaker 1:So this is like a total moonshot company. This is harder than colonizing Mars. This is trying to get Tim Cook and Mark Zuckerberg to play nice. I I how are you possibly gonna pull this off?
Speaker 9:Yeah. Message interoperability has been one of the problems that just people have talked about for a while. I think, the way that we do it is we have this insight where if you layer onto people's computers and you don't distribute within the App Store, you have more interesting things that you could do. And so it's actually possible to do, exactly what we wanna do here, which is connect iMessage and WhatsApp together.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I imagine that, like, if I was super, super hardcore, I could have, like, a Mac mini that's running with literally iMessage and WhatsApp open and Yeah. An agent that's clicking and screen scraping and uploading to a database and then surfacing that in an app. And it's gonna be very hard for WhatsApp and and iMessage to, like, shut me down if I'm doing that. But that's a very prosumer
Speaker 3:You need your own computer.
Speaker 1:How far are you from there to Yeah. The actual product?
Speaker 9:What's interesting is the first version of the product was effectively a cloud server that we would ask people to log in. So give us their iCloud details Sure. To log in to, which, you know, Trey has a funny story about this. But at a certain point, I think you realize that it's it's just not the most effective and the right way to do it. It's not the the perfect answer.
Speaker 9:And so because it feels inelegant, there's a better way, which is what you described. Essentially, if you can insert mouse clicks and be indistinguishable from a human from the OS level, so Apple can't tell that you're a human versus you're automating your computer, it's over. It's like, okay. Great. That's where you wanna be.
Speaker 9:So, we've thought a lot about that question and, yeah, certainly some of the features, sort of play with that aspect.
Speaker 1:I mean, do do you have to, like, message the prosumer nature? Do you think that there's a world where you can get big enough that then you exert enough leverage over the platforms that they have to play nice with you? Like, is that the long term goal to be able to walk into Cupertino and Menlo Park and say, like, look. Like, there are gonna be millions of people that are upset if you shut off my API access, so let's make this easier for everyone.
Speaker 9:Yeah. I think we already see it moving in one direction with RCS. Sure. It's probably gonna continue moving that way.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 9:So that would be amazing. Yeah. On the prosumer thing, I think it just comes down to regulation and rights and what you can lobby for. So Yeah. There's
Speaker 1:How solid how how important do you think iMessage is to Apple's, like, position? Because recently, we've just come to this, like, weird realization that it's, like, my my it's my number one social network. It's, like, how I plan my social life, my family life, my friends. I'm sure you're the same way. I have group chats with business friends.
Speaker 1:And all these social platforms are, like, where I consume news and content and, like, people that are, like, friendly acquaintances, but mostly, like, my social network is iMessage. And that feels like they're gonna be able to charge whatever they want for me to keep that every year when they release a new iPhone. So do you do you buy that thesis as well that it's very important to Apple's position in the market?
Speaker 9:I think it's hands down the most important factor as to why people are buying iPhones.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 9:Because no one wants to be the icky green bubble in the group chat where all of a sudden nothing works in the group chat and things are delayed and just disgustingly, you know, designed. So at a certain point, don't wanna be that guy. So you just herd mentality and sheep into buying an iPhone. Yeah. But I think a larger point here
Speaker 3:is, bend.
Speaker 9:Cheap bend. A larger point here is it's it's just, like, when you receive a blue bubble from someone, there's already this sort
Speaker 3:of preemptive. Okay. We need to Alright.
Speaker 1:Alright. Wait. Sorry. We're we're trying to build out
Speaker 3:the ultimate Whenever I get a blue bubble, I because think.
Speaker 1:You have you have the trough, the slop trough. You have people who are goaded, but then you have people who are sheep. And so well, like like, you you you just helped us create a new link in the chain in the the diagram.
Speaker 3:Let's go. But anyway sorry. Goats Goats need sheep. You know?
Speaker 1:Yes. The goat what is a goat without a sheep to contrast with? Sorry. How's the actual product launch going? The rollout?
Speaker 1:Are you in beta? Is it handholding customers on? Are you general availability?
Speaker 9:It's really good. Yeah. So it's general availability. Anyone can download it right now, at least on Mac. And then if they want iOS, they can request access through me.
Speaker 9:So we have been getting a lot of people today just going on. The onboarding experience is mind blowing. It just tells you your life recounted through you through, you know, all the conversations and and top people that you've met. And what's funny is I was texting Ben before this, trying to coordinate, like, logistics. And Yeah.
Speaker 9:I found out that my messages suddenly turned green, and it was because I hit a quota limit. Because this morning, I sent out, I think, 3,000 messages to people Oh, wow. In my one on one group chats. Like, hey, guys. Can you help me, you know, post about this and and help me support here?
Speaker 9:And yeah. So I guess I read I realized what the ceiling is on on
Speaker 1:On the rate limit. Oh, that's always a good sign.
Speaker 3:I'm wondering if I'm gonna get rate
Speaker 1:pain problem.
Speaker 3:On my my inbox. I have 5,004 unread texts right now.
Speaker 1:Well, one one of our friends, one one of our friends,
Speaker 3:Will Manias I need I need
Speaker 1:to reply
Speaker 3:by way.
Speaker 1:Bloomberg for private markets, and he kind of outlined it as Oh, yeah. IMessage plus Signal and Axe and Twitter as the main one. So have you thought about that? And what what what are the what are the nuances of, like, how hostile each API is, basically, is what I'm looking for, like, a state of the state of affairs.
Speaker 9:Yeah. I saw I think it was Will's tweet. Yeah. I saw it, and I thought it was interesting. On our road map, we have Slack and Discord, maybe email or a few other messaging platforms.
Speaker 9:But I think the the big thing is, actually, 80% of your messages come through. It's not an equivalence, right, like twenty twenty twenty. It's like mostly people are on one thing, and then they'll text this secondary platform for a specific group of people in a niche and then another maybe 5% of the time. And so I get the sense that it's it's mostly okay to just focus on iMessage and WhatsApp right now, and then you can add integrations later or even have the community help you build these integrations. But there are private APIs and, I mean, Telegram API is easy and some other ways that you can, yeah, integrate.
Speaker 1:I I I I really do wonder about that because it feels like
Speaker 3:Yeah. To me to me to me, it feels like the more platforms you add, obviously, more valuable it is. Yeah. Because at two, like, I I probably get 80% of my text on iMessage, 10% or maybe 5% on WhatsApp, 5% Signal.
Speaker 1:No. It's definitely a power law. Like, iMessage is the most important. What I wouldn't even put WhatsApp I would put WhatsApp, like, fourth or fifth. For me, personally, it would go iMessage, then probably x DMs, then maybe Instagram DMs, then WhatsApp, then, I would even put signal above WhatsApp.
Speaker 1:But the point is is that, like, like, a one app to rule them all. Like, if it's gonna be a standard in my life that's, like, the one unifying interface, like, I want it to be across everything, I think, the the control plane. But I don't know. There there's a lot of with with all these, like Yeah. Unified personal assistant stuff, there's a lot of, you know, expressed preferences versus revealed preferences.
Speaker 1:Like, people might actually use it a different way than they say they wanna use it. But I don't know. It's gonna be a fun fun building process for you. So I'm very excited.
Speaker 9:Yeah. It's it'll be cool to see the longitudinal access come in too. Right? Because, like, our thread on x will be different from our thread on email, be different from our thread on iMessage. And if you can just solve that problem of context coming in from all these different places Yeah.
Speaker 9:That would be huge for both people and companies. So Yeah. It's gonna be really exciting.
Speaker 1:Have you learned anything from the previous attempts at this, like the beepers of the world?
Speaker 9:Yeah. You definitely don't wanna poke the bear and do the thing that feels not right and inelegant for too long. Mhmm. I think the first launch we had, which was sort of a semi private beta launch in February, we had a lot of people come on and tell us, hey. Apple's watching and, you know, maybe would have issues with iMessage.
Speaker 9:I think the main thing is just be nimble and agile. And when APIs change that we
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 9:Know that have changed, we just automatically update. Update. Right? Day of, four hours later, a new build is out. And so nothing really breaks as long as you, are on the system all the time.
Speaker 3:Keep shipping. I mean, four
Speaker 1:hours in text message land is a long time for some people if they're like, I didn't get the message from my wife that I need to pick up the kids or something like that. Does seem like a tall order, but, that's why they invented nine nine six or zero zero two as the Wall Street Journal put it more recently, which is basically no time.
Speaker 3:I I think But yes. Everyone everyone has this everyone has this problem. Yeah. It's very hard to create an elegant solution. Yep.
Speaker 3:But if you do, it it will be incredibly valuable.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Well, good luck to you. I don't know if we lost the video, but thank you so much for stopping by. We will talk to you soon, and
Speaker 3:have a
Speaker 1:great rest
Speaker 3:of your day. Congratulations.
Speaker 1:Sorry. That that was kind of a crazy ending. But we have Johnny Dwyer from Mulan Space, his second time on the show. And we had a great we actually played a clip from our previous interview yesterday, and we're very excited to talk to him about about both about what's going on in his world, but I'll welcome him to the show. Now, how are you doing, Johnny?
Speaker 1:Good to see you.
Speaker 7:Hey, guys. Good to see you guys again.
Speaker 3:Welcome back.
Speaker 1:Thanks so much. We enjoyed the we we we enjoyed the previous guest segment immensely. We played a clip from that segment yesterday. On space station centers. Yeah.
Speaker 1:We were trying to contextualize space data centers. We're actually having the founder of the space data center company come back on the show to defend what's going on since a lot of people are skeptical. Where do you sit on it now? This all feels like I'm not ready to call it even a binary. I I think we should be discussing timelines more than will it ever happen.
Speaker 1:But how how are you thinking about space data science?
Speaker 7:Yeah. I mean, I think it's it's it's a like many things, it's a win, not if. You know, is it a year from now? Is it ten years from now? Is it twenty years from now?
Speaker 7:I don't know. But I think as you think about generally the future of the planet and where we're going on it, more and more stuff is going to move to space. And so I think it's inevitable at some level that we will have large scale, you know, IT infrastructure in space. I mean, you know, we're probably going to talk about our deal with Starlink in a minute, and that's an example of a place where I think we're starting to really see what I would call truly modern IT infrastructure starting to show up in space. And and I think it's inevitable that data centers will go there as well.
Speaker 7:A lot depends, I think, obviously, on the fundamentals of what is gonna drive the need for future data center capacity, right, and how some of those needs are met, you know, on on on Earth and and then and how that would compare to deploying things in space. I think if you ask anybody even, you know, what a terrestrial data center will look like in five years, they're probably not gonna give you a real confident answer. So I think, you know, trying to predict exactly what that's gonna look like in space is hard to do right now.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. What, yeah. What what more can you say about the this new partnership?
Speaker 7:Well, yeah. I mean, I think, you know, one of the things we like to think we're, we're doing at Yuan is really pulling a lot of the aerospace industry kicking and screaming out of the stone age. And, you know, you think about a lot of the stuff that's circling the earth right now, and and it's still connected with things that look like dial up modems, frankly. I mean, I think we're we're kind of in an era where a lot of the space technology is a few generations behind what we take for granted on Earth. And this partnership with SpaceX is now gonna give our satellites things that look a lot more like a a an always on fiber broadband connection rather than a dial up connection.
Speaker 7:And so that's gonna completely unlock, you know, a tremendous set of things that have been very difficult or impossible to do in space historically, much as, you know, Starlink has demonstrated with terrestrial use cases. You know, an example that I'm you know, we're all very excited about at Nuon is we've been working on this global wildfire constellation for the last several years. This will eventually be a 50 plus satellite constellation that will get twenty minute global revisit latency to detect and and track wildfires at the from the earliest stages of their life cycle all the way through to help, you know, decision makers on the ground make better decisions. And a really critical piece of making that system work well is getting that data back to people that are making decisions at very low latency. These satellites produce enormous amounts of data.
Speaker 7:There's going be 50 of them. So having this kind of fibre connection in the sky is absolutely transformative in terms of being able to deliver a capability that's crucially needed around the world and has not been possible today. So I think it's a really good example of, what this technology can unlock.
Speaker 1:Is fiber a metaphor, or are you physically putting fiber in the sky somehow? I mean, people are putting
Speaker 7:data We have big glass spools, and we're kinda unwinding them behind that.
Speaker 1:Right? We're gonna put data massive one gigawatt data centers in space. Like, I wouldn't be that it doesn't sound like crazy.
Speaker 3:It's a humanoid up there with a spool and just let Yeah.
Speaker 1:Exactly. So so so so you're not you're not literally putting fiber in the sky. It's more about connectivity between Starlink satellites, or are you putting up your own satellites that are acting as kind of backhaul between the Starlink satellites?
Speaker 7:We're basically using Starlink as our backhaul. So you can think about them as sort of our network in the sky, and then we'll be connecting with SpaceX lasers or laser terminals
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 7:They call mint lasers into their network and using that network as kind of the backhaul system. So it's not literally unwinding glass fiber guy, but actually the technology is very similar to fiber optic, you know, technology on on Earth, and a lot of the same componentry is used. We're just sending the light over these kind of free space optical beams, not over glass fibers.
Speaker 1:And then and then who's your customer? Is it someone who's who has a satellite or a constellation in space that needs to move Internet data around while in space, or is it more for speed up terrestrial uses in some way or or just improve the Starlink network?
Speaker 7:So we're building satellites for customers. So our satellites Okay. You know, sort of broad range of customers. Yeah. You know, one of the customers I mentioned is this there's a global nonprofit that's funding the work on the fire mission.
Speaker 7:So ultimately, we're building satellites for them. They're muon satellites that we deploy and operate. And this will now provide sort of a much faster lower latency network layer for us to operate those satellites on. Other examples of customers we're working with, we have a customer called Hubble that's doing Bluetooth low energy tracking from space. So you can kinda think about, like, IoT
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 7:Device tracking from space. We have
Speaker 1:Wait. The company is called Hubble?
Speaker 7:Yeah. It's called Hubble.
Speaker 1:That's confusing name. I I know that there was a contact lens company named Hubble, and that kind of made sense because it's like wildly different market. But if you're out there in space
Speaker 3:So so I I can imagine the commercial use cases for that. Right? If you if you have a lot of hardware out around the world and you wanna track it in real time, is that, does that have, like, defense applications as well? Like, what what are what are kind of, like what's the what's the actual focus there?
Speaker 7:Yeah. So I I don't wanna speak for Hubble. You know, they they would Yeah. Yeah. Better for themselves than I will.
Speaker 7:They're our customer. But I I mean, I think their primary focus is on sort of enterprise and commercial use cases. So, you know, there's millions of asset tracking devices in the world today that are out tracking, you know, shipping containers and remote facility equipment, things like that. And a lot of those are are running on kind of these bespoke and, frankly, very old school satellite networks. That's how they get the data back.
Speaker 7:And I think Hubble's vision is that, you know, it we should be doing the same thing we're doing with consumer devices, which is strapping a a 9¢ Bluetooth transponder on anything that's out in the world and then being able to track that thing from space. And so we think there's a lot you know, I I I think they believe there are many, many commercial and enterprise applications of that. There probably are also, you know, government applications of that. I I don't wanna speak specifically to them, but I think that's you know, it's it's a it's a tie all of these types of technologies, especially with spacecraft, in some way are inherently dual use. So there's always gonna be use cases in both the commercial and the government sector.
Speaker 1:Give us the fundraising update. I feel like we missed you around series b potentially. Do you have news? What's up?
Speaker 7:We don't have news. I mean, we we we raised a kind of a two part series b last year. And this year, it's a big round for us. I think it totaled about a $140,000,000. Oh, we got the Gong coming.
Speaker 7:So, yeah, we're doing we're doing well on the fundraising side. We're we're we're well funded. We've a got lot of business coming in. It's been very exciting days around the company. So it's a pretty pretty exciting path forward right now.
Speaker 7:We're really just trying to scale the company up a lot. We have a big facility. We're in we're in the Bay Area. We signed a large facility earlier this year, so we'll be kind of 10x ing our production capability, our hardware production capability in the South Bay before the end of the year and then building out a lot of other new technology pieces that we're really excited to talk about as, as as we start to hit space with them.
Speaker 1:Fantastic. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Great to get that.
Speaker 1:Congratulations on the progress and help, yeah. Thanks for breaking all that down for us. We know there's not literally fiber cables up in the sky. We figured why we asked the dumb question.
Speaker 3:Figured it out.
Speaker 1:Awesome. Thank you so much. We'll talk to you soon. Cheers, John. And up next, we have Mike Shubbitt from Traba.
Speaker 1:We have a video update from him. Let's play that and welcome him to
Speaker 3:Come on over. How you doing? Sup? Doing well.
Speaker 1:Can I get it to you? Yeah. Can we play the little bit of the video that he shared? Let's pull that up, and get the update. What's going on?
Speaker 3:Welcome to the UltraDome.
Speaker 6:Request. Probably qualifies thousands of workers for the best
Speaker 1:This is is this your key hero marketing video right now?
Speaker 9:Describe proper form for lifting
Speaker 1:heavy packages.
Speaker 6:Quick reel just to show
Speaker 1:on products that we build. Sure. Sure.
Speaker 3:Sure. Quota.
Speaker 6:Because in staffing, there's so many different manual workflows. Sure. This video just basically breaks it down with how it all comes together Okay. Every post give you tech. Goes beyond
Speaker 1:Very cool. Finding workers. How old is the company now?
Speaker 6:We're four years old.
Speaker 1:Four years old. Are you still in New York?
Speaker 6:We're still in
Speaker 1:New York. Manhattan?
Speaker 6:Yep. All 150 of us. Okay.
Speaker 1:150 now. Wow. Okay. So I I I toured the when did I come by and and do an interview with you? That was maybe, like, two years ago or so?
Speaker 6:It was across the street.
Speaker 1:You're you're You're across
Speaker 6:the street to few of offices.
Speaker 1:Okay. So, yeah. Take take us through the basics of, like, the the the the problem, the market. It's a highly fragmented market. Yep.
Speaker 1:But what's the what's the high level, like, 140 characters that you described, Trava?
Speaker 6:Yeah. So basically, millions of workers across the country work in industrial staffing Mhmm. And then hundreds of billions of dollars spent on staffing. Yep. But if you break it apart, it's really just like a highly fragmented industry with like tons of manual op OpEx and things like that.
Speaker 6:So basically, we replace the whole suite with tech Mhmm. And we provide double the fill rate, better quality workers Right. And workers within a couple hours versus weeks.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And, like, the staffing industry in general, I think of it as, like, highly lucrative but highly fragmented. Yep. Is that is that just generally your experience? Like, I I I guess I guess to just jump straight forward is, like, why build tech startup instead of private equity roll up?
Speaker 1:Like Yeah. In a dress shirt. You could go do a PE roll up. Right? Like like, I don't know.
Speaker 4:You're just
Speaker 1:for it. Like, it's not like you have to do it the Silicon Valley way. Why are you doing it the Silicon Valley
Speaker 6:Well, basically, because of the advancements in AI, this never really was able to happen before. But Sure. On the staffing end, there's just so much manual work and tons of OpEx. Mhmm. We basically just, like, from a top to bottom, end to end, just have completely redone it with tech.
Speaker 6:Sure. And that's why building it as a technology company has Yeah. Been so much better.
Speaker 1:And so that's the like, when you say AI or tech, you mean, like, lead scoring, basically, understanding who's right for what job, placing them, screening.
Speaker 6:Well, it's it's like a ton of things. So we do the vetting. We do we actually guide the worker to the shift. There's fraud detection and Yep. Like, essentially follow ups with the workers.
Speaker 6:Sure. And then as the workers perform shifts, we actually that feeds into our model
Speaker 1:and But it's not the AI doing the job. It's always No. No. Yeah. You're you're you're you're you're sticking it out for the next decade.
Speaker 6:Yeah. Yeah. On the back People before the raw model. End, the customer doesn't really see the AI on the back end. We're doing all that work.
Speaker 6:Yeah. So what the customer sees is just like incredible group of people showing up for work every day and, like, helping them out.
Speaker 1:Did you see the Uber news that Uber drivers are gonna be able to do one off AI tasks?
Speaker 6:I saw that. Yeah.
Speaker 1:What is your take on that? Do you have you have any AI companies approached you where you're like just I I don't know if I'm describing the company correctly, but I remember a couple case studies is like there's a big Taylor Swift concert in town, and the organizer might go on Trava to pull in a bunch of folks really quickly. Or if it's the rush holiday season on an ecommerce warehouse. Right. I don't wanna put you in a box, but, like, those are two examples.
Speaker 1:Right? Yeah.
Speaker 6:Basically, like Yeah. Manufacturing, fulfillment, food processing, all those industries have, like, crazy volatility in their work for Yeah. Workforce needs. So we help, like, smooth that out for
Speaker 4:them.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And so my question is, have any AI companies, like, reached out to you and said, like, hey. You have a big pool of labor.
Speaker 1:We have a unique use case that we could, like, push
Speaker 6:your partner. We actually have gotten a few inbound
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 6:Companies who are just, like, hey. We need these workers to do all these different things. But right now, we're laser focused on just industrial supply.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 6:Yeah. So focusing on that Okay. We may expand out in the
Speaker 1:future.
Speaker 3:Have any humanoid, companies come to you and said, like, yeah. We'll we'll give you robots, like, put them out into the field? Yeah. Or are they not quite at the level where they actually would be willing to let them do unsupervised activity?
Speaker 6:Yeah. So I I actually, like, see this how I talk to our customers about this all the time. Right now in like, when it comes to humanoid robots, they're not quite there yet, we're but gonna be well positioned to essentially, like, lead that charge when the tech gets a lot better in about five years or so.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Because you're still gonna have the the kind of variability in in in workforce needs, right, where you might need even even if you have a 100 robots, like, in a facility and then suddenly it's rush season, you need to deploy, like, a 100 more on top of that. It's like, where do you where do you get that?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 6:Yeah. And then all these workers are gonna essentially have to get connected to new earning opportunities. So Yeah. We'll be able to help with that.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It's a little bit of, like, the, I guess, the narrative violation behind, like, AI taking every job or AI being useless is, like, I'm pretty sure Amazon is the largest robot operator, but also one of, if not the largest employer as well. And so they're really doing the both robots and humans at scale.
Speaker 6:Yeah. Within the facility, it's a lot more dynamic. Mhmm. And a lot of these companies, they have to change things really quickly. So if just commit to a certain robotics work flow doesn't work today.
Speaker 6:Yeah. Which is actually why if you actually go back to Elon Musk's tweets in, like, five, six years ago, he actually said, he's like, we try to make the Gigafactory all robotics. Yep. And then we went back to humans because necessarily, like, get there yet.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And they had to do a hybrid hybrid. Yeah. A little bit about where the structure of the market is going in terms of staffing agencies broadly. I imagine that, like, AI and technology generally are like an accelerant to growth.
Speaker 1:Right? You can just onboard people faster just using, like, all the tools in the mobile tool kit, allow you to understand where people are going, placing them, GPS, all this stuff is useful. How does that play out? I mean, I imagine that competitors are gonna try and catch up. Are you planning to just outcompete them?
Speaker 1:Are you looking to eventually get into doing acquisitions? Like, how do you think the long term plan plays out?
Speaker 6:So I was in a staffing conference in Dallas and it was pretty crazy.
Speaker 1:Electric. Yeah. Was that's why we do it.
Speaker 6:Literally, year, everyone is like, we are getting disrupted and it's coming for us.
Speaker 3:And they
Speaker 6:were just talking about how, like, they can't organizationally roll it out. Yeah. Yeah. There's just, like, thousands of people at these organizations that have all these different tasks. Yeah.
Speaker 6:Yeah. So it we had they actually approached myself and my chief of staff, and they're like, we want really wanted you to help us move into this new age. Sure. So when it comes to roll ups, we're potentially looking at a few acquisitions. And in that case, it would basically be like companies that have really good retention on the business side.
Speaker 6:So, like, they have
Speaker 1:Oh, Customers.
Speaker 6:Continue to spend. Yep. But then they're just like, we have terrible OpEx Yep. And just so many manual expenses, and we want you to essentially improve these margins and That
Speaker 1:makes a
Speaker 6:ton of essentially take carry it forward.
Speaker 3:How do you operate the business? You're obviously, like, incredibly aggressive, I'm sure, around growth, but at the same time, like, you also feel like somebody who you're planning to run this business forever, I I imagine. And part of putting yourself in a position to do that is, like, maintaining good unit economics and just running a great business. How how do you balance, like, growth and and, and burn and Yeah. And those factors?
Speaker 6:We're very thoughtful about capital efficiency with growth. So, fortunately, in staffing, the margins are actually pretty good to play play with. So, yeah, we're just like we were operating in the physical world, so there's so much that's going on, which is why our team just, like, worked so hard to kinda get in there. There's not, like, one specific tool that can essentially get cloned. It's, like, hundreds of thousands of workers that use our app and, like, thousands of businesses.
Speaker 6:So you get those real network effects as you scale up. But, yeah, it's basically growth, unit economics, 10 x customer experience. That that's what we always talk about internally.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Take a victory lap on the nine nine six thing. It is hilarious. I mean, you didn't obviously invent the nine
Speaker 6:nine six. Sana invented nine nine six.
Speaker 3:Yeah. You invented China.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You stole it from them or something. But, no.
Speaker 1:I mean, I I I think you were the first to, like, really, go out there and
Speaker 3:You're willing to say it when it was, like, gonna It was essentially get you a little canceled.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. You get a little bit canceled. And and I think it was it was an interesting framing for the brand of Trabba to say, look, we're not trying to create super intelligence.
Speaker 1:Yep. We're not trying to cure cancer. We've just found a great business that delivers value to customers, delivers value to our clients. Mhmm. You know, everyone everyone all the parties are happy with this, what's going on here.
Speaker 1:And so we're gonna work really, really hard. What was the actual journey of the, you know, get a little canceled? Did that ever really manifest? Were people ever actually mad at you? And then now, what are you seeing out there?
Speaker 1:Has everyone else adopted this? Are they taking it further? Can they take it too far? Just walk me through your thinking.
Speaker 6:Yeah. I think it really has to go into what the goal of the company is. So we are a very ambitious company. We wanna be a massive publicly traded company. Yeah.
Speaker 6:Yeah. And if you work backwards from any very successful company, the early team was just, like, all in. It was their number one priority. Always. So we basically were, we did this thing called anti selling where we were, look.
Speaker 6:We're gonna get people working in person with us. We're gonna go build some awesome stuff. Yeah. And if you're not interested in making this your number one thing, then that's all good. But it created something really great internally because every single person is just like it's like a team sport.
Speaker 6:Everyone's in it together. Yeah. And we're all trying to create leverage on the time that we've done. So make a lot of
Speaker 1:I think it's there there's something underrated about this where people have been mapping like the missionary versus mercenary thing onto just how sci fi the project is. Mhmm. And if you and and they assume, like, if you're working on something sci fi, everyone's a, missionary. And if you're working on something that's maybe just a little bit more tractable of a business problem, everyone's a mercenary. And I think that that's just not true at all.
Speaker 6:Not true.
Speaker 1:Like, we we see it here. Like, we're building, a media company. But I feel like everyone we have a really great culture. Everyone's really bought in. Everyone is thinking creatively and working really hard and getting a ton of reward.
Speaker 1:And at the end of the at the end of the tunnel is not time travel machine that takes us to Mars or cures cancer. It's it's just a show, but we're all happy and aligned on that. And so what what has the road been? Where have the where have the difficult moments been in the journey where you've had to kind of re reignite the flame of of missionary.
Speaker 6:Yeah. So, yeah, shout out to your team. They're awesome. They they grew to be here. And everyone's, like, so locked in and love what you guys do.
Speaker 6:Yeah. And I think a big part of that is just you guys being authentic to who you are and be like, look, like, we're TBPN.
Speaker 1:We're gonna
Speaker 6:make this
Speaker 1:this It's show. Company. It's a show.
Speaker 6:And everyone gets gets involved in that. With us, you know, there's, like, challenges every single week. Just part of building a company. And I think some people really they opt into that. They're like, I'm gonna go learn a lot.
Speaker 6:I'm work gonna with a great group of people around me.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 6:The likelihood of success goes up if everyone's equally committed and really bought in on on be making something awesome. And then people just have a great time. Like, they look back and they're like, you you remember the war stories in the days where you're, like in the Airbnb trying to get the customer, like this crazy request comes in, you're like, how are we gonna do it? Yep. And you're really only gonna create that if everyone that opts in and joins the company is like, that sounds exactly like what I wanna do with my life.
Speaker 6:Yeah. So we get a lot of ex athletes because they remember that in sports and college
Speaker 1:and things
Speaker 6:like that. Yeah. So it's great.
Speaker 1:Tell me the story of Uber, your experience there, and then I want the update on, like, the how you think about opening markets now because this is something that not every software company has to do. Like, OpenAI launches a browser. They don't need to send a team to Dallas. But Right. At Uber, you did.
Speaker 1:And at Traba, you have been doing this. Yep. So walk me through, like, the best practice for when you're going hand to hand combat in a software business. It's a tech company, but you still have to deploy a team.
Speaker 6:Yeah. So operating the physical world, it's quite different. At Uber, I was a launcher where you essentially drop into a city. You hit a bunch of restaurants on the platform up on the Uber Eats product. Yeah.
Speaker 6:And then you have to essentially get the couriers,
Speaker 3:and then you run You sky dive in. Right?
Speaker 6:You sky dive in, sell the restaurants, say we can make you some more money. Yeah. What's different with Trava and Uber Eats is that selection. Like, people aren't like, okay. I wanna work at, like, five different warehouses this week.
Speaker 6:They actually are fine with working in this, like, middle ground where, like, I'm gonna work for three to six months in this one warehouse
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 5:So let's take
Speaker 6:and then maybe I'll switch again.
Speaker 4:Sure.
Speaker 6:So our sales cycle is a little bit different where we do have market specific, like, leaders where people do own a market.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 6:But we go for these big accounts that they want hundreds of workers versus, you know, like, three to four people. Yeah. Yeah. And then the workers kinda, like, it goes viral because they get their friends. Yeah.
Speaker 6:And it's like a very social job and things like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That makes sense. Has the has the playbook changed at all? Are you in every market now? Are you still on the war path?
Speaker 6:We're in most markets in the country. We're not in California yet. So I was in Vegas before being here because there's some customers that came over.
Speaker 3:Yeah. The And and that's
Speaker 1:not a capital constraint. Right?
Speaker 6:No. It's actually more just the employment laws in California. Right now, you're
Speaker 1:set up.
Speaker 6:Yeah. We offer two different ways to work on travel. One is ten ninety nine in which workers can get paid within thirty minutes Yep. And the other is w two. Sure.
Speaker 6:But we're very intentional about every market we
Speaker 1:into. You wanna make sure you check all the boxes so you Yeah. Have some In The US, lost we forgot to file this form and then it comes back. Yeah.
Speaker 3:You don't want any of that. That makes sense.
Speaker 6:But we're coming. We're coming soon.
Speaker 1:Let's go.
Speaker 3:Yeah. There we go.
Speaker 1:Let's go. Yeah. I I I'm thinking about all all the different uses for a flash mob of human labor that we could put to
Speaker 2:work.
Speaker 3:How do you any any learnings around, like, the causes of burnout that you see within your organization if you're pushing people super hard Yeah. Means you that you you want to avoid burnout.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:I don't get burned out when I'm working on something that I love and I feel like I'm making real progress on it. I feel like burnout can come from not maybe finding meaning in the work or not making progress and running into a dead end over and over. But what's your framework? And I'm I'm sure CEOs have asked you this of like, okay, if you're pushing your team super hard and you're pushing yourself hard, how do you avoid how do you avoid that? Yeah.
Speaker 3:So the
Speaker 6:number one thing is people don't get burned out if they feel like they're winning. Yeah. We try to get people in an environment. Just win. They're they're just winning.
Speaker 6:So we gotta get the right role, get them some wins in their belt. It's kinda like in school, if you're like studying nonstop seven days a week and you're getting straight a's, you're not really burning out
Speaker 3:from that. Yeah.
Speaker 6:So you're putting them in environment to actually be successful. And then everyone's got something that they do to kinda, like, take care of themselves. Like, a lot of people, they work out. Like, at Trava, people will work until, like, seven ish, hit the gym, come back. Like, it's a very healthy culture, but it's very much, like, happy, healthy, wealthy is kinda like what people are aiming for.
Speaker 6:So, they're all there together and, like
Speaker 3:yeah. That's great.
Speaker 1:How do you think about the the like, how rigid is the nine nine six thing? Obviously, some people shift that forward backwards. Now there's this article in the Wall Street Journal about zero zero two.
Speaker 6:What is that?
Speaker 1:Do you work from midnight to midnight? You're working twenty four hours. You take two hours off a day. Oh my gosh. I don't know.
Speaker 1:Is this is this real? I mean, I can pull up the article because it it would be good to get your reaction, but it says AI workers are putting in hundred hour work weeks to win the new tech's arm race. And there's like a 50% chance that this is like, you know, someone trying to get a PR piece to be like, yeah, we work even harder than this guy. Yeah. Josh Batson no longer has time for social media.
Speaker 1:The AI researchers only comparable dopamine hit this year is on anthropic Slack work based messaging channels where he explores chatter about colleagues theories and experiments on large language models and architecture.
Speaker 3:So he's on a social work platform, socializing some of a network.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If you're trading nine nine six, don't count your Slack time.
Speaker 1:That's fun. Like Yeah. Yeah. You think
Speaker 6:so so the way it plays out actually is like when we first started the company, we were actually like, let's make this a little bit more structural.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Now with
Speaker 6:a 150 people, we have all these different types of roles. Yeah. It's more just like you gotta be locked in and like make work your number
Speaker 1:one
Speaker 6:thing.
Speaker 1:Totally. Totally.
Speaker 6:But but what I will say is you go we are an in person company if you swing by Traba
Speaker 1:at like
Speaker 6:08:30 in the morning or 09:30PM. Yeah. Literally any day of the week, there will be like people there building really cool stuff. Yeah. And that's pretty awesome because then you can just like show up and build with your friends.
Speaker 6:Yeah. And people feed off of each other's energy.
Speaker 1:Yeah. You can't be too dogmatic about it. I feel like I mean, we both have kids. We're also on the West Coast. And so we run more of, a 6AM start time.
Speaker 1:Yep. And and so we yeah. We we just stack like some extra hours there because then you have Yeah.
Speaker 3:That's that's cute that that it really picks up around 08:30 at Trava. Oh, yeah.
Speaker 1:That's why
Speaker 6:I'm like, wait. Oh my gosh. I thought we were intense and you guys talk about this 02/00/2002. And I'm like I'm like calculating the hours. I'm like, man, we like we had the burnout question and then we're like, gosh.
Speaker 3:The zero zero two, it's it's like Is
Speaker 1:that in here?
Speaker 3:I think if you sleep for two hours Okay.
Speaker 1:So so so working zero zero two, the most intense periods for many come while working on models or new products when time working extends beyond the nine nine six six schedule. That stands for 9AM to 9PM six days a week. One startup executive jokingly referred to the schedule as zero zero two, meaning midnight to midnight with a two hour break on weekends.
Speaker 6:Yeah. Yeah. We don't jump
Speaker 1:I don't think anyone can actually do that.
Speaker 6:Like, you're just gonna burn
Speaker 1:out and, like, you need sleep. You actually do need sleep.
Speaker 6:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's more about just, look, like Yeah. Are you all in on this?
Speaker 6:Especially in New York, there's infinite things you could be doing. Yeah. You just want people to, like, think twice before filling out their social calendars during the It's like, look, we're trying to build something epic here. Yeah. And it's awesome to just know that you're gonna be around your
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 6:Colleagues built
Speaker 1:Also, I just feel like there's something about New York City, Manhattan, where if I was at the office late until nine and I get off, like, there's still all the restaurants around. Yeah. Like like like stuff's gonna happen whereas, in LA or in Pasadena, like, with kids, like, I wanna be home with the kids five, six, like, you know, doing dinner.
Speaker 2:A little bit different. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Have kinda shifted. But they still probably give it their
Speaker 3:they're all.
Speaker 6:Right? Parents look like Yeah. You got kids at home, like, definitely have a a group of parents at Travo. Yeah. They make it work.
Speaker 6:Yeah. Shout out to them for sure.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 6:But there's definitely a huge cohort of, you know, people that don't have the kids and they're like, you know, at the office a little bit more than the parents.
Speaker 7:Yeah.
Speaker 3:There's something super comforting building a business if you're working as hard as you possibly can Mhmm. Knowing that lack of hard work is not gonna be the reason that you don't you don't achieve the level of success that you want. Right. Because if you're people out there, a bunch of people are not pushing themselves as hard as they know they could, and then it's always gonna be in the back of their mind of, like, the whole time building the company Yeah. That maybe Yeah.
Speaker 3:I worked a little bit harder, I would have achieved, like, you know, whatever
Speaker 6:And then success in a start up, it isn't just this binary thing where you either get the gold medal or not. There's, like, different revenue targets you can hit. There's different valuations, different, like like, ways to please customers and things like that. So, yeah, it's great to, like, live a life where you look back and you're like, I gave it absolutely everything I got. There's nothing else I could have done better and, like, keep pushing forward.
Speaker 3:So Well, that's a good
Speaker 1:That's a great place to end it.
Speaker 3:Place to end the show. Yeah. Gave it all we got. We gave it all got. Thanks for hanging out.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for tuning in today. We will be back tomorrow at 11AM sharp
Speaker 3:Can't wait.
Speaker 6:Have a
Speaker 3:great evening.
Speaker 2:Love you.
Speaker 3:Bye.