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The Relaxed Running podcast is a behind the scenes conversation with the best athletes, coaches and professionals in the world of distance running. From training, hydration and nutrition to racing and recovering, we learn from the best in the world.
Relaxed conversations which are packed with actionable takeaways to help you take your running performance up a notch. Save yourself years of guess work and learn from the people who are doing it at the highest level.
Tyson (00:01.674)
But yeah, I was the same before I hit record that I don't even really want to talk about on the podcast anymore because it's becoming laughable. But I had about six weeks uninterrupted. I was just saying to Dion of training programs of distance training and then on the weekend run out for 20k felt fantastic cruised along. Then yesterday went along and I was going to go to the gym decided last minute that I was going to go for a run because I was sick of being inside and I was just cruising along and then had like a little bit of tenderness.
and at about 5K felt like the slightest ping in my left calf, which isn't even the culprit. So yeah, you were just saying that the training is, it's kind of demanding like to go out and just run it's, yeah, no worries, but then to try and run fast is a different kind of ball game.
Dion (00:45.384)
Yeah, it's just that amount of load and then the training it requires you to be able to
faster, you obviously have to do a lot more training and that's kind of where, you know, that recipe is not always perfect for everyone. You know, just going and doing more Ks is not always, you know, beneficial to everyone. And I mean, you could have the most talented person in the room and next to the hardest working person in the room and they could achieve two hours 40, but one person's done 150 Ks a week and one person's done 70.
So you've got to nurture the talented one versus the hardworking but robust. And 22 weeks to go, it's still a long time.
Dion (01:33.942)
for the right person, you could really get there and do it well and you could be doing big weeks and all the people that love to give you kudos on, oh you did your 4x5k rep session three, four weeks out. Whereas the other person who is prone to injury and has more talent could actually get there in 10 weeks or at least make the start line.
Tyson (01:58.790)
Mm.
Tyson (02:03.406)
That is a good point. I do find it really interesting looking at the speed that different people get fit at. My issue at the moment, and I've spoken about this a bit is I think just cause I've taken such a long period of time off and then you chuck 10 years of age in there. Um, I, I totally agree with you when you say that the, um, the intent is a big thing because I'd been running for the last 10 years. It's not like I had 10 years off completely. I'd still been running a few days a week.
But just that intensity that you hit when you're trying to train to run fast, you're just not really getting those style workouts. So I think it's probably in hindsight, it's lucky I started my build up in. I just coincidentally on the first day of the year, went out for a run with a, with a girl called Sarah and she was training for, you might know her. I can't think of her last name, but she was training for the 24 hour race. Um, it's like Jaya singer or something. She's married to a Sri Lankan dude. Dude. Unbelievable. Well, she was training hard and
Dion (02:50.465)
Okay. She won that.
She won recently, yeah.
Tyson (02:57.234)
I bumped into her up here and I actually, I was hanging out with my little Charlie boy over at the dog beach and I saw this chick just fly past. I thought, man, she moves well. Like she, she looks good. It looks like a good runner and she had the kid on and stuff. And so she just happened to finish her session near me and I went up and said g'day and asked what she was training for. And anyway, we got on and she's like, Hey, I'm going for a run tomorrow. She was doing 27 Ks or something. So I was like, all right, I'll kick us out.
my marathon journey at the time. I was just going for a long run more than thinking about anything in particular. And, uh, yeah, it went out for a run with her, but dude, so she, um, she, she won that race. Do you know, do you know how far she got in the 24 hours?
Dion (03:37.049)
No, but no, I don't. I think I do recall seeing it somewhere, but it would have been like 180k or something, which is pretty good. And I think also last year she run.
and won the Great Ocean Road, the 60km. So I think that's where I first had really seen it.
Tyson (03:57.318)
Have you ever done a 24 hour race?
Dion (03:59.098)
No I haven't. It's definitely on the list but at the same time like it takes a lot of hours to be trained in that fatigue state and it's just just too busy yeah I guess.
Tyson (04:12.870)
Yeah, it's amazing. I reckon if there's one bloke who's cut out for a 24 hour race, yeah, surely it's no surprise to me that it's on your list. Surely you would do very well over something like that. It's interesting, like how much do you think your training would change now? Cause like what's an average week in terms of kilometers for you?
Dion (04:30.742)
Oh, this year is probably not the year to ask, but at the moment, like, if I can, I like to try and be around 160 thereabouts and that's kind of me maxing out with every kind of minute of the day kind of thing. If I was to do a 24 hour, you don't necessarily have to do more, but you might just do it a lot slower. I mean, making it more relative to your race pace.
and doing it at different hours of the day. So as you do the event, you might do one of those Dave Goggin things where you do, you know, every hour you do a 6.7k run every hour and just do that for 12 hours. That could be like a, you know, a good training run. So although your mileage might be similar, the time it takes to complete your training is a lot more. So that's probably, you know,
It's the time involvement and almost feeling like jet lag every Monday because of you.
Tyson (05:34.843)
Mm.
Tyson (05:37.494)
Yeah, she was, she was telling me that she was a nurse and she reckons that some of the shift work that she's done really helped her out with the training for that race. It's yeah, it's really interesting that you talk about that because you don't even think about the, the other levels of fatigue that come in. Like the one thing that I've been interested in just getting started with the marathon training is I honestly, until recently, about two months ago, knew absolutely nothing about hydration.
Like I had such a surface level, even though I did that marathon a few years ago, like my approach that was very unprofessional. I was just drinking water and I would take a gel when I thought I might be getting tired. That was as far as I sort of looked into it. But then I had a fair bit of help from Andy Blow, like the precision fuel and hydration crew and man, they've got some great resources. Like they had a number of articles that I was reading through and had him on the podcast a couple of times just speaking about sodium loss.
Tyson (06:27.694)
the carbohydrate loss and things like that. And it's the first time like on Sunday, I made sure I was well hydrated, which sounds so strange considering how long I've been in the sport for, but as a middle distance runner back in the day, like it was not really a big focus point for me cause on race day, most of my races were over in sort of around about the eight minute mark at max. And it was a rare day. I might go out and do 15 minutes, but.
Yeah, it's, it's one area of endurance performance that I didn't know about. The other area with a 24 hour race that you wouldn't think about that much is, is that fatigue state and that Dave Goggins approach is, is really interesting because I don't know a lot about Dave Goggins or the 24 hour style races, but, uh, is that something that athletes are training in? Like they're deliberately making sure they're, uh, not just physically fatigued, but also just wanting to go to bed style fatigued while they're training.
Dion (07:18.041)
Yeah, I mean we're practical obviously, you know, some people their lifestyle doesn't allow it and you just figure it out on the day and hopefully you can learn something if you ever want to do it again. But there could be other things like leading races where you do, you know, a six hour race or something like that where you're practicing that.
prolonged grind where you're just going and going. But yeah, that Dave Goggins thing, and that's usually over 48 hours, but you know, you can do it every, you know, you can do it for eight hours, you can do it for ten hours. There's also that last one standing, which is another, like, good concept, and that's probably another, I guess, entry.
race that people are now kind of looking at because you can really get, I think 24 hours is about 100 miles or something like that. So, you know, that's, it's not as far as what you might be able to get doing a 24 hours, but again, not many people will be able to. So that the concept of that race is every hour, you need to have started completed.
Dion (08:38.522)
a 6.7 kilometer circuit and then on the second that the next hour starts you then all have to be starting your next you know 6.7 km loop and if you're 30 seconds behind you're not allowed to go again so it's like going in and out of stopping and starting and then that starting again which is where you just like my legs are just seizing up and they've stopped and now they've just given it for the day that's a really good way to
kind of get that, I guess, training in the legs and that mental fatigue where, oh, I'm really tired, like, I've just stopped for a little bit and want to have a snooze and I've just had some hot noodles, it's four in the morning, you know, no one else would be seeing that I stopped. So it really just challenges you and takes you into a bit of a dark place, but a very, you know, I guess, yeah, you can...
learn a lot from something like that and then even just being able to think well if I can do that you know maybe I can go for a run at 4am when I've just had a sleep.
Tyson (09:46.282)
Yeah, what was the name of that race?
Dion (09:47.946)
It's called Last One Standing and they have lots of different ones, even around the world now. And yeah, I think that the record is somewhere up to like 70 hours. And it is nuts. Like these are elite athletes doing serious mileage.
Tyson (10:08.142)
That is unbelievable. It's like a Cameron Haynes style race. I don't know if you know much about him. I hear him speak on Rogan's podcast. He's not quite in the same category as Dave Goggins in terms of like the intensity of the approach that he takes, but he's, he's certainly a, um, like a bit of an endurance junkie, a bit of a glutton for punishment. So, uh, he, he seems like that kind of athlete. It's interesting as well to me that with, um, I think it's Courtney DeWalter. Uh, it seems that the gap between.
males and females drop significantly over those ultra endurance events. Is that true? Or is she just a freak? Like this is a, it's such a foreign world to me. Anything, once you start getting out above the marathon, I'm probably not the man to speak to. If anyone ever asked me like, can you help me prepare for an ultra marathon? I go, Hey, look, as long as you want me to be learning with you. Usually I would say, okay, my area of knowledge sort of stops around that 42k mark.
Dion (11:00.274)
Yeah, I reckon Courtney is, she's a bit of a freak of the sport and she'll be remembered for a long time for what she's been able to achieve and up there with the male equivalents of the...
Dion (11:17.158)
you know Kipchoge or you know Jim Walmsley and you know all these kind of amazing other athletes who just really you know own their own their sport, but um Yeah, the gap does kind of You know it is not as You know distinct between the males and females in the altruism, and I think that comes down to Probably the females are a bit tougher than the guys
and then also that guys are a bit more ego driven so they will start their runs too aggressively and it just does not pay off with ultra running so on the off chance that it does pay off you get some amazing results and like Killian John you know amazing you know he can do what he can do but um you know not often people are able to pull off
you know, impossible kind of times. And I think that's why females are really good at the ultra running is because they're much more measured. And when you blow up, you know, it costs you a lot of interest. And if the females don't blow up, they're a bit smarter, maybe they're a bit, you know, mentally tougher. You know, a lot of these people doing ultras are probably middle to, you know, middle stages of life, you know, they've probably had kids. So there's a lot of experience and kind of
Dion (12:45.594)
going into dark places that females probably just excel in that compared to men.
Tyson (12:54.174)
Yeah, it's a, it's an interesting point. That's one thing that I had a chat to Jesse about my wife forever. I'm listening. She had a V back. So like her first birth was a C section. She was really keen to have a natural birth for the second one and dude, hearing her learn about the psychology of just what's about to take place and then actually watching it happen and seeing her get through it. I was like, Oh my goodness. Like, cause I'd spoken to a number of chicks on here. Like Jess Stenson was one. And she spoke about. How.
Uh, like her return to the sport. I think it was Jess. I'm just thinking as I say that, but nonetheless, I mean, the example still stands. Yeah. Uh, she was say that again. Oh yeah, man. She's a gun. Like anytime you have Jess on just her level of expertise and her openness to share about her training is, is, is really helpful. But yeah, she was speaking about how, um, just putting yourself through that experience all of a sudden, like you think on a practical level, like once you've had kids, maybe your body's not going to be.
Dion (13:29.643)
Yeah, that was a good interview as well.
Tyson (13:51.794)
in as good as good as good, you know what I'm trying to say, as good a shape as, as what it would be if you if you had, but then you forget about that psychological element of performance, hey, like, and it's no surprise there's so many girls, well, just as classic example, she came out and won the Commonwealth Games last year or the year before, man, I'm losing track of time a little bit. Is that last year Commonwealth Games?
Dion (14:13.765)
Yeah, 2022, yeah.
Tyson (14:16.826)
2022 she came out and then she that was a couple of years after she had Billy so Man, it's a good point It's definitely a good point like the idea that there's something that you can reach down and discover about yourself in a situation like Situation like that's unbelievable it's backfired for Jesse now though because whenever she has a headache or whenever she complains about pain I go come on. I've seen what you've done. I've seen what you're capable of so she doesn't get away with as much as
is what she used to. Man, you were saying before that it might not be the best year to ask you at the moment. What's going on with you this year?
Dion (14:49.323)
So, yeah, it's just a busy year.
Dion (14:53.774)
towards the end of last year decided we would try and start a family and so I thought well if we're going to be in that boat then I need to go and study this year before the opportunity is not there again. So I'm doing my myotherapy at uni this year and it finishes at the end of the year. But then so I'm studying and I've got my two jobs, the coaching and still working doing myotherapy and everything.
Dion (15:23.114)
My partner is pregnant. We're about 18 weeks pregnant. And we just bought a house and we actually move in on Tuesday. So just a lot of stuff going on at the moment. And I mean, I'm very fortunate that I can kind of, part of my work is to go for a run. So that helps me get up to my 160 Ks or thereabouts. But.
Tyson (15:26.378)
Oh, you got her. Congratulations, brother.
Dion (15:51.970)
you know, very soon when, you know, it might not even be that much. So, um, and I know that I'll definitely pick it up once Bob is old enough and, you know, I can take the program out and stuff, but, um, yeah, I'll still want to be around in those initial couple of weeks and months. And, um, so yeah, this year I've kind of shelved any of the PBs and I'm just kind of racing, going for, you know, enjoyments and just trying to.
get quite a few races under my belt before I won't for a little while and then yeah.
Tyson (16:30.618)
Did I see recently, you're running the great ocean road. Is it the half or the full? Sure, it's down. You're gonna be doing the full. Yeah, of course you are. So how's the preparation been for that? You said, so you're pretty consistently still hitting the target kilometer mark that you wanna get, but what you're just getting prepared for the fact that things might be mixed up a bit soon.
Dion (16:36.450)
I'm doing a 60.
Dion (16:51.646)
Yeah, definitely. And I mean, even like at the moment, living in Glenorris, so I can kind of run home from uni and it's a 12k run. And so that's a good way to also it takes a similar amount of time to get public transport home. So that's a good way of getting mileage. So it's very opportunistic. But then we move to Frankston next week. And it's a bit too far to run. So I think it's 51k. So I'm doing that commute.
Dion (17:21.426)
really. So yeah, at the moment around the 160k's kind of thing and the prep's been going pretty well. I did have COVID a few weeks ago when, maybe about a month ago, it was just after the Hobart marathon. I picked it up and came back with it, which meant I missed out on the Christchurch marathon which was two weeks later. I just still wasn't recovered. But yeah, since I feel like I've
Dion (17:50.690)
Um, yeah, like I didn't feel like I was in that good a shape. And then probably in the last couple of weeks, it really started to think that, uh, fitness is turning around and kind of going in the upward trajectory, which I'm feeling pretty positive about. Who knows how I'll go on the day. I mean, great ocean road last year, I was in probably the best shape of my life. And, you know, I won that marathon and it was a really great, great run in the experience. And I think that's.
Dion (18:20.110)
kind of why I might have decided on the 60k of I know I'm not going to PB and or I know I'm not gonna run as well as last year and although I would like to kind of see how I go in the field I think going up slightly a little bit slower I can still actually run you know close to my I guess best for that distance and so yeah the 60k will be a bit of a challenge I haven't done too many
runs over 50k this year. I mean they were both races. So yeah. And I'm a bit of a nose so hopefully if I can do okay in the 60 and find myself near the front I'd be pretty happy.
Tyson (19:03.650)
Yeah, that'd be good. How do you organise your hydration going into a race like that?
Dion (19:07.790)
Great Ocean Road will be quite a bit different because you can't do special need drink stops. So you can't have pre-filled of your own personalized bottles ahead on the course. You actually have to either carry the gels with you or take on what the course are providing. So for me, for this particular event, I'll have...
I'll wear some arm warmers and then I'll have some little small bottles kind of in the sleeve of the arm warmer and that's kind of carrying my drinks in there which will just be powdered kind of carbohydrates and then I'll also have a couple of gels in my pocket I probably won't have as many as I would like to have just because of the carrying factor but I would say I'll probably have five or six gels
Tyson (20:02.602)
Yeah, like a 30 gram carb gel. Yeah, beautiful. So over the course of a regular marathon where you've got the right of way to have organized drinks and scheduled drinks and things like that, how do you approach that? Like are you, so the reason I'm asking is cause just on Sunday, one of the things that I trialed for the first time was, and under the advice of Precision Hydration was, I had like, I wish I could show you there, too far away, I'll stretch these headphones. But.
Dion (20:04.683)
Yeah.
Tyson (20:31.662)
they had the 1500 milligram, I think it is sodium tablets that you mix with about 500 mils of water. And I'd never really tried that before. So my recent learning is just about how you can think you're hydrated. But if you haven't got enough sodium in your blood, then a lot of the time that fluid that you're taking on, you're just sort of flushing out. I'm not sure if I've explained that right. I'm sure there's someone listening who are.
Dion (20:52.838)
Yeah, I know what you mean. Because if you think about it, if you have a very salty diet, you will have a lot of fluid retention in your body where the sodium just sucks up the water and then it doesn't leave your body. So you'll see some of the really salty diet, they'll look a lot heavier than what they might naturally be if they didn't consume as much salt. And it's a particularly handy trick, what you were doing.
if you're running somewhere where it's particularly warm, because if say, and I've done this before, where an hour before a race in warm conditions, you can take quite a lot of sodium, salt tablets or whatever, I think I had 10 tablets, and then consumed a whole bottle of water, might've been 750 mils, an hour before the race, which you think you're gonna like pee your pants. But the sodium,
just pushes it all out to all parts of the body and it just stays in there and it's kind of just like having a reservoir of water in the body where when you sweat, you know, the body just takes it back. So yeah, it just stops you from expelling as much fluid by having that sodium. So whereas if you didn't take it, you just pee it out.
Tyson (22:14.382)
Yeah.
Tyson (22:16.950)
Yeah, it's so interesting. I'm not sure how much of it's placebo, but my least favorite feeling on any long run is when you get to that point where you're like, okay, I'm just cooked and I know it shouldn't be this cooked right now and it's only because I haven't really taken care of my energy stores. Or you're running in a place where you clearly haven't had enough water or you haven't given yourself access to enough water and you've started without being hydrated. So in the lead up to some of my Sunday runs, and it's so funny saying this, like as a bloke who...
Um, used to compete at a fairly high level. You would have thought the knowledge, even for some of the training runs that I was doing back then, like there would have been benefit to having some kind of knowledge around this, I say the same thing around gym and strength training for me, but for whatever reason, I didn't look into it and none of my coaches really pulled me up on it back in the day. So I'm a real amateur, but going into that run on Sunday, as I said, it was just 20 Ks, but for me, it was the longest run that I'd done in a couple of months. I felt unbelievable. And it was so nice to get to about 10 K in and just go.
Oh my gosh, like I can tell that I've got a whole heap of energy left in the tank. I'm not fatigued. I'm not tired. I feel like I'm rolling. Um, I also, uh, just, I had some of the 30 gram carb gels myself, and I just tucked one of those into my pocket. And one of the things that Andy blow from precision said to me was, yeah, take that before your body starts to feel fatigued, obviously. So at half an hour, I thought, well, I'll just, I'll just try this out. Like, I'll, I'll just get a bit of a feel for how the gel sits and
Dion (23:27.412)
So, I'm going to go ahead and start the presentation. presentation of the presentation of the presentation of the presentation of the presentation of the presentation of the presentation of the presentation of the presentation of the
Tyson (23:40.686)
what it feels like to actually have a gel on the move and things, which is something I also hadn't really trained for. Gel sat well, I felt energized. As a result, I woke up yesterday morning, which is part of the reason I decided I was gonna go for an easy job, just cause the body felt unbelievable. I woke up as though I hadn't really done that much the day before, which based on where I'm at in my training is a little bit of a surprise. So yeah, it's like a secret weapon. A lot of the time I'd always just thought.
about the quality of training, about the technique side of running, but the actual fueling and hydration side has just been a little bit untapped. Did it, um, do you have a bit of a gauge as to how many carbs you're trying to take in an hour when you're sort of at maximal effort? Like if you're running a marathon, how do you decide, all right, this is how many carbs I want by this phase and this is how I'm going to replenish any of the sodium loss or electrolytes that I might be sweating out?
Dion (24:31.446)
Yeah, a lot of it is, you know, kind of based on trial and error, but then even still, even
on best science, you might not be able to adapt and take on as much as you'd like. So you kind of need to compromise to, okay, I feel my stomach can handle this much. So I'll just, you know, I'll meet you halfway. I feel like I'm pretty lucky or I've got a bit of an iron stomach. I can kind of take on anything. So I'll probably try and take up to 120 grams an hour.
Cubs.
Tyson (25:08.794)
Gee, that's solid. Purely in gel form, or are you mixing that with some water as well? Oh, yeah. Yep.
Dion (25:13.534)
Mixed with water. So I just made quite a strong, quite a strong mix. So I just have those little pop-top bottles and they're perfect.
Tyson (25:24.846)
and that's what you're gonna tuck into your arm sleeves at the Great Ocean Road 60K.
Dion (25:29.959)
Yeah.
Tyson (25:31.618)
Yeah, that's great. That's a great idea. And then like in terms of recovery and things like that, are you fairly conscious of what you're taking in the moments after race like that? Or is that just beer time?
Dion (25:42.698)
Immediately after a hard race, I find that the stomach is just quite, you know, it's like a washing machine in there and you're probably a bit sensitive to so it might be I Might just have some water maybe some sport drink that I haven't consumed during the race I find you know, I don't normally consume like the Gatorade and Powerade and whatever else they have at events But after a race, I'll have some of that. I might have Banana, but then I'll actually just want something salty
maybe some chips of some sort. And then, yeah, so I'm not particularly strict. I'll kind of just go on how things are feeling. But yeah, I'll generally have a salty afternoon with food, just getting in some carbs, getting in some fat, some salt.
Tyson (26:15.587)
Yeah.
Tyson (26:33.046)
Yeah, it's probably no surprise how much you crave it after a run like that as well. Is it, that was another thing that I was reading about with Andy. He goes, if you start noticing you craving the salty food, it's probably a sign that, that your body's put in a fair bit of work over a long distance event. You're, you're trying to get that back in. And what about the carb loading process, man? What are you doing in terms of sort of the 24 to 36 hours before a big race?
Dion (26:35.062)
Yeah. Yeah.
Dion (26:53.846)
Yeah, good question, because that also leads into why I crave so much salty food after a race, because you have so many lollies. So generally, say if the race is on a Sunday and I start carb loading pretty much from when I wake up Friday to when I go to bed on, or even when I wake up Sunday morning. So I'll generally have a lot of high GI stuff. So
white breads, white rice, white flour, so pasta, lollies. You can have even juice or soft drinks, which I don't normally have. So, but yeah, I will try and take on as many carbs as I can in a smaller quantity as possible. So, I mean, for example, if you have 45 grams of carbs in rice, that's generally one cup.
Dion (27:50.338)
Whereas if you had 45 grams of carbs in lollies, it's pretty much 55 grams of food. So it's like 40% less volume of food. So even though I've had a really big carb load when, you know, I'm doing these, leading into these races, my volume of food is still not enormous. So I, you know, although I feel, I do feel heavy, I do feel like a bit of a slob. I don't f-
Tyson (27:50.638)
Mm.
Dion (28:19.682)
feel as bad as if I've, you know, eaten my body weight in food. So I'll have a 500 gram packet of lollies minimum each day, Friday and one Saturday. I'll have honey on toast. And if I'm out at a race hotel or something like that and don't have access to a toaster, I'll just get fresh bread rolls, honey on that. So it's...
Tyson (28:32.379)
Wow.
Dion (28:48.510)
very much the same. As for dinner, it depends where I am, but on the Saturday I don't go as heavy with the carbs for the dinner, just so that I don't wake up on Sunday morning feeling particularly full, because I know that in the morning I still want to have a little bit of carbs because it just gets the liver functioning just a little bit of a top up. So it might just be one or two pieces of packet bread.
Dion (29:19.040)
with some honey rather than anything more substantial.
Tyson (29:23.762)
Yeah, sure. And are you like on the morning of the race, like when's your last meal before that is a couple of hours before you have that honey on toast or cause Lisa Waipman was saying to me a while ago that when she wakes up often, like the carb load's done, she doesn't even eat on the morning of a marathon, but I, I hate that feeling of being even slightly hungry going into a run. So I think my personal preference, even before I go for a long run, like that 20 K run I did two days ago, and this was too close, but it was just because.
I woke up with the kids and then had to get going before the day got started. Cause I didn't want to leave Jesse with all the, all the hard work to do, but I had a, like a cup of oats or so probably half an hour before. And I'm a little like you when it comes to running. I've got a bit of an iron guts, I think. Like with other things, air sickness, travel sickness, I'm a car sickness. Um, I don't, I'm a princess. When it comes to what I can tolerate when I'm out there running, like even that was okay, but it was probably pushing it in terms of time limit. Ideally, I'd probably have something like that. Maybe.
two and a half hours before, so that by the time the race starts, you feel satisfied but energized as well.
Dion (30:25.787)
Yeah, with yeah with a race you can probably you know afford to go a little bit earlier You know I'm similar to you like on a weekend. That's just a normal weekend run So if I'm going 30 K's or something I mean I could have a music bar and a banana ten minutes before and off I go no problem
Dion (30:46.226)
on a race day when I've got more food in the stomach and then you have probably still something a bit more substantial like a couple pieces of toast and coffee I might take it depending on where the race is versus where I'm staying but you know I've still woken up an hour before the race had breakfast immediately not hungry but have breakfast and coffee and then kind of just warm up jog to the start line and
I find that for me that's okay if it means that I can sleep a little bit more. I'm okay to, you know, I don't want to wake up three hours before, have some toast or something and then go back to sleep for an hour because it just won't happen. So for me, I take the sleep over half an hour, an hour longer for the food to digest and generally my stomach is okay with that.
Tyson (31:40.994)
Yeah, yeah, I guess, I guess you sort of get a feel for it after years of going out and doing your 30K long runs. Is that your standard long run? Like pretty much, if you're not training for anything in particular, the body's fit and healthy, are you running 30Ks on your long run each week?
Dion (31:54.642)
At the moment, I would say, yeah, thereabouts. If in a normal year, I'd probably be doing 40 most weekends. Yeah.
Tyson (32:06.726)
Jeez, yeah, but what just because of the time constraints at the moment?
Dion (32:09.702)
Yeah, yep. And then, I mean, on the weekend I did...
Dion (32:15.854)
What do I do? I did 26 Thursday, 26 Friday, 30 Saturday, 42 on Sunday.
Tyson (32:24.950)
Oh, that's a good couple of days.
Dion (32:28.542)
Yeah, and then that's kind of, I would normally try and get runs like that done pretty much every week and that's how it's, you know, I find it relatively easy to get 180k's when I've got a bit more time on my side. Like, you just, you need to commute somewhere, you need to pick up your car from somewhere or, hey Amy, we're going to the market, why don't you drive there and I'll meet you there. Like, things like that. It's, you know.
Dion (32:58.934)
just opportunistic and then, and that's where I can get a lot of the Ks. You just see these random ass runs on my driver and it's like, that's just base Ks and they'll still do my normal sessions, but just having base Ks, I kind of respond well to more mileage in the legs than going too fast.
Tyson (33:20.546)
Yeah, that's unbelievable. And how are you structuring that with sessions? Like, are you just doing your faster style running within a long run like that? Or are you actually doing scheduled track sessions or K or 2K reps and thresholds and things?
Dion (33:32.638)
Yeah, so we've got, I guess, the running group that the Evolve Run Club, like we do Tuesday, Thursday sessions. We've got 6 a.m. and 6 p.m. And so I just I'll do the session twice on a Tuesday usually. And then Thursday, I do the morning, but then I've got uni at night. So, you know, I'll do generally three sessions in the week. And, you know, one of those two Tuesday sessions, I might do a couple of reps.
but not as fast and one of them will be a bit more, I guess, focused. And then the other one is just a bit of a, you know, pace someone for a couple of reps, maybe do a couple of fast ones myself. And then on the Saturday or Sunday, I'll put in some effort as well, whether it's, you know, two hours around the pace that I want to run for the Great Ocean Road or whether it's, I did a progressive run on Sunday where
Dion (34:31.810)
I just kind of did 21 Ks easy and then 10 Ks around 4 minute Ks or thereabouts and then another 10 Ks, you know, 10 seconds faster. So like 350s and then a K or two cool down. Like stuff like that where it's emphasizing what I might feel like at the back end of a race.
Tyson (34:56.906)
Yeah. And are you doing any gym work as well? Cause one thing that Pat Tien and explained to me that he thinks he can improve from his first marathon where he ran two 11 in, I think it was Chicago last year, is that he felt like he went into some of his long runs feeling too fresh. And he said that in the latter parts, like the last 10 K of a run, he said, aerobically, he was as strong as ever, but physically he felt like his legs just weren't calloused enough with the words that he used. And he said that, uh, like when I asked him what he's going to do to try and improve that, he said,
like potentially doing some heavier lifting sessions in the gym, maybe 24 hours before, or it might've even been the morning of, and then going out and running with those heavy legs. And I feel like I can understand from a, um, like a practical sense, how that might help over a, um, an event like the marathon, but when it comes to 60Ks, I guess nothing resembles fatigue, like actually being out there and, you know, having 20 Ks in your legs, like you just said, before picking up the pace to a gold race pace.
Dion (35:52.670)
Yeah, and like that run from Pat was amazing, but um, yeah, like I don't do a lot of, you know, strengthening and anything like that. I wish that I would be able to do some and, you know, arguably maybe I should be doing some and just compromising on one day a week where I don't run and just...
Dion (36:16.022)
get strong in the gym and work on prehab and rehab and things like that. Um, but I just love running, so I'll just go for a run. Um, um, but I definitely would not recommend doing a solid gym work the day before a long run. That, that's quite a, um, yeah, I feel like you don't want to then go do like a two, three hour long run on already sore legs, cause you just start pulling in bad mechanics, I would do your strength work, you know,
Tyson (36:23.490)
Yeah. Yeah.
Dion (36:45.834)
in the afternoon once you've done your strength session or your speed session because then the next day is easy whether you're resting or running you know you can still your legs can still adapt strength into the legs that way.
Tyson (37:01.220)
Yeah.
Tyson (37:03.766)
Yeah. Another thing he said, which made sense as well was even, um, a lot of his runs were done on trails. Whereas he felt like in that latter part of a race, based on the fact you're on road for 42 Ks, he should put a 10 K block out there on the road or a footpath just to get the legs. Comfortable being attacked like that. Like, is that something that's gone through your mind when you're picking out long run routes?
Dion (37:24.554)
Yeah, I mean, I don't try and pick particular routes where it's, you know, portions of the run, a road, portions of trail. I'll just mix it up and just make sure that I've got a good balance where, you know, every, you know, I'm kind of like every fortnight where one is road, one is trail, one is road, one is trail. And when I say trail that, you know, that could be running around Albert Park, you know, that
Dion (37:53.406)
it's gravel, it's softer underfoot. But then again, if you want to do road, you can use Albert Parc as an example where you can just run around on the road circuit. So I think just having the conditioning in the legs where you've done a long run where it's all on the legs, it will beat your legs up a bit differently than if you were doing it on trails. But a combination of both is a great way to be versatile with whatever runs that you want to do.
Tyson (38:21.438)
Yeah, yeah, it's a good point. I think you answered this question before, but you're not doing like any alternative training of like stretching or yoga or, um, ice baths or anything like that is I know you were just saying how much you love the running. So that probably takes priority.
Dion (38:36.082)
Yeah, not particularly. Where I can, I'll try and do some stretching. But I mean, it's not a set aside time where I get stuck into a routine. And I think maybe once we've done this move and kind of have a bit more space and some room to do that, it might be a part of my routine. And I mean, my partner, she's a school teacher, but she's studying to do PT as well. So we're going to have a gym set up at home. So.
it'll be something that will be down the line. I will be able to fit into my, I guess, overall fitness regime.
Tyson (39:05.542)
awesome.
Tyson (39:14.954)
Yeah, that's exciting, man. Yeah. The idea of having a home gym is a very exciting one. Be nice down there in Frankston as well. We were down there on the weekend. We went and stayed in Mornington and we drove through Frankston to get there. And it's a good part of the world, man. You have the access to the beach for a little bit of cold water recovery and stuff. That's what I've been laughing down here a little bit. I don't know. I think I told you last time we spoke that I'm down at point Lonsale. I'm pretty close to the water and this time of the year, it starts to get a little bit chilly. So that's where, for whatever reason, my interest in going in the water actually increases.
I love those strange looks you get from locals. And so whenever I finish a run, I like to go down there and, you know, dip the, dip the legs in the, in the cold water and try and keep my body in, in check. But, uh, it sounds like I've still got a bit of navigating to do when it comes to the rehab process. Have you ever dealt with strains and things like that?
Dion (40:01.939)
not necessarily strains personally just usually you know the over training stuff I've not had a stress here or anything but just like tendinopathy and stuff
Dion (40:14.642)
annoyed tendons and stuff but yeah that's kind of like the injuries that I've had and you know I'm probably quite lucky but then I've also just you know not been afraid to back off and run a bit more to feel like I've got my seven-day plan in front of me and I'm like oh I feel crap this week I'm not going to do that and then I will just kind of meet the program halfway and you know whether it's reducing the speed or
just not doing it. I feel like I've been lucky to avoid injuries, but yeah, I don't know too much about like, in terms of if you're referring to like your calf strain and, and whatnot, like, you're probably, you know, I don't know if you've heard of the, it's like an acute to chronic training load.
Dion (41:04.138)
where it's kind of like, look back at, I guess, your last four weeks. Some people might go back six weeks, but let's say for four weeks, and your training load, let's say you've done 50 Ks a week, for the last, on average, you know, you might've done 55, 45, 50, 50. So your training load for that.
Tyson (41:04.185)
Nah.
Dion (41:32.686)
four-week period is 200 whereas say if last week if you did 75 K's you know that is your acute load and your chronic load is your four weeks and then as soon as you go what is it one so 1.5 it's just essentially like 25 or 50% more it's
Dion (42:02.742)
you know, you've increased by 50% your acute load versus your four week average. That's kind of where it's really common to pick up niggles and injuries. And, and that's just because the body is used to doing your 50 K bloating. And then all of a sudden you've gone and done 70 and it's like, um, and I know that, um, you know, physios are really, you know, good and, or big on it. Um, like Dane.
Tyson (42:22.638)
That's interesting.
Dion (42:32.886)
does a fair bit of stuff with it. But yeah, it's like, I'll often ask people, oh, you come in to see me and what have you been training for? Oh yeah, I've been doing this. And, you know, I would be a good example for this where I just had COVID and didn't really train at all for two weeks. And then the last two weeks I've done 175K. So my, yeah.
Tyson (42:57.590)
Each week. Yeah.
Dion (42:59.902)
my acute load would have been 175 but my four week average would have been 80 and that's like that's a you know because I've had years of 160 kind of average it's kind of okay but you kind of like you need to know what someone has been doing versus what they've just done because then it kind of paints a picture and it could even also be that
I've just been jogging 50Ks a week for the last six months and I've decided I'm going to run a half marathon in a month's time so I've just started doing three speed sessions a week. Running 50Ks. And you go, well that's silly, why did you do three? You could just start with one.
Tyson (43:39.792)
Yeah.
Tyson (43:49.098)
It's such a good point. I mean, it makes so much sense. And it's really interesting to hear you say that you've, you've got a, such a good hold on, uh, meeting your training program halfway. Cause I think in marathon runners, especially, especially inexperienced marathon runners are real culprits for looking at a training program and saying, okay, well, this is on the training program. I don't feel ideal. Um, but that's what's on the program. So, Hey, let's eliminate any thought and just go and do it. Whereas.
The approach that you have, it's almost like a child's approach to what they do. They go very much by feel and they're very in touch with what needs to change or what needs to adapt based on how it is that they're feeling. And I mean, I look at my little boy and there's nothing in him that is tied to logic and reason and something that's written down. If he wants to do something, he'll do it. And if he doesn't, he won't. And I mean, I think there's, there's something to be said for that because, um, ideally like yesterday, I'm a prime example. I was fairly aware.
Tyson (44:41.930)
in my mind that my calves were a little bit tight. If granted a little bit like what you just said, like I had years of dealing with calf pains and discomfort and stuff after a hard track session. And it feels very, very similar. So I think my excuse yesterday was like, I was running along and I was like, no, I was fairly confident that after six or seven weeks of training that I'd conquered any sort of weakness in there and I'd been working real specifically at it. So I think that's.
Dion (44:54.420)
Yeah.
Tyson (45:08.994)
how I justify it. But I think if I had my time again, I would have gone, all right, hey, Tys, there's a little bit of tenderness there. It's been a bit sketchy. Don't worry about what you got on the program. Just give it a break and give it a rub out tonight. And then jump on the foam roller or chuck some ice on there or whatever. And then, you know, it probably would have been a different story today. But I mean, it's sometimes easy to play coach to other people than it is to yourself. And I got the balance wrong, which is, I mean, it's just the nature of a sport, isn't it? Like when you're exposing yourself,
to hundreds of Ks a week. Well, in your case, that's true at the moment, not for me, but like a heavier load than what you've been used to. Naturally, there's gonna be things that come up and unfortunately, one of the best teachers is a setback, which is, I guess, sort of how I have to see it. Cause otherwise it just becomes a frustrating thing where you don't really enjoy the work. But I guess the beauty of marathon training and the distance training as well is,
Dion (45:47.858)
So, I'm going to go ahead and start the presentation.
Tyson (46:06.602)
a lot of the time that the training plans are quite long. So it gives you some flexibility to dance around and, you know, change things as you go. But yeah, it's really interesting. Like I love that, that thought of the chronic versus the acute. I've never explained, heard anyone explain it that way. I've heard, um, and sort of one of the principles that I'll, uh, uh, you know, abide by is just not adjusting the average distance of a week of training too much, but I hadn't heard, uh, explained in, in that sort of, in that sort of way.
Was that something that Dane just refers to or is that something that Dane came up with?
Dion (46:38.064)
No, it's a well-known research kind of theory amongst other allied health professionals. So it's something that he would refer to. After this I'll drop you a Venn diagram, I think they are, or something like that, where it shows
Tyson (46:50.336)
Ah, sure.
Dion (46:58.946)
the acute to chronic workload. And if you think about it, like a lot of, what is the stat, like 70% of runners in their first year of running will be injured. And if you think about it, if you've decided you're gonna do your first half marathon or something like that, if you've literally started from zero, you've gone over, you are going to 100% going over the acute to chronic ratio. So.
Tyson (47:24.272)
Yeah.
Dion (47:28.722)
I mean, it's not, you know, there's no way you can avoid that. So, if you've been doing a fair bit of walking for your life and decided you're going to run, maybe you've got some body conditioning, but running is a little bit different. So, say if you've done 5Ks, you know, for the acute training, but your chronic was zero, you've still gone way over what the threshold is.
considered safe. I know it's 5Ks, but you know, even if you were doing 10Ks a week for the whole life and then all of a sudden you've decided New Year's resolution, I'm going to lose some weight, I'm going to do a half marathon with my child or with my parent or I'm going to, you know, I just want to have a purpose to train for. And then all of a sudden you start doing 50Ks a week.
but you've been doing 10 your whole life. Again, that acute load has spiked drastically, and people haven't allowed enough time for that chronic load to build up enough where you can then go and do your event and kind of have safe levels of training in the legs.
Tyson (48:46.602)
Yeah, yeah, it makes a lot of sense, man. Yeah, send that through, it'd be great to read about. It's amazing this sport, like even after 20 years of being involved in it, there's still things like that that you haven't heard of or haven't explained. So there's no doubt that there's, or no surprises that people are still navigating their way through stuff like this, because there's just so much to unpack. And a lot of the time, you sort of don't see it until you're in it, do you? It's very easy to have an idea about what.
Dion (49:07.735)
Yeah.
Tyson (49:11.278)
Someone should be doing when you're not involved in it, but sometimes when emotion get in the way, it makes it a little more tricky. Yeah, dude, we'd love to see that. Well, man, what's on the schedule for the rest of the day, the rest of the week? How far out from the Great Ocean Road run are we now?
Dion (49:24.482)
So it is on next weekend, so not this one, but the one after, so the 21st. So yeah, I'll just, I'll probably start tapering next week. And this week, yeah, I mean, long run will be less than last week. I'll do 30 K's. I find it because I'm not racing for a time. I probably don't need to taper as much.
Tyson (49:30.499)
About 12 days, yeah.
Tyson (49:52.298)
Yeah, sure. So this Sunday, your long run will be 30 Ks. Yep. And then like just some, some more gentle running throughout the week or gentle in your standards, but for anyone else standards, probably quite a large week.
Dion (50:03.974)
Yeah, I'll still have it. Like I'll probably still run, you know, 20 Ks, you know, on the Tuesday or something like that, another 15, 20 Ks on the Monday. So it'll still be a decent week, you know, that's three days of running and that's already 100 Ks. So yeah, I'll probably just do like a 5k the day before and yeah, it'll still be a decent week, probably up there with one of my biggest for the year.
Tyson (50:21.539)
Mmm.
Tyson (50:32.622)
You're awesome, man. And dude, you, you, you mentioned evolve. Have I got the name right? Evolve running is, is your group. So what there's a couple of public sessions during the week. Is that, is that open to everyone or what's the situation with that?
Dion (50:36.350)
Yeah, yeah.
Dion (50:43.690)
Yeah, anyone can come along and then, so we're just at Caulfield Park and you know, probably in the next few months once things are all set up we'll have Caulfield and Frankston both going at the same time. But yeah, they're 10 bucks a session, we've got coaches there and good group of people kind of from six minute 20s to for like 1k reps down to...
I guess myself, I guess down to probably like three tens or there about. And yeah, so good group. And then we do, you know, free long runs on the weekend as well. So anyone's welcome to come along to those.
Tyson (51:20.598)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, awesome.
Tyson (51:31.234)
Yeah, great. And have you got those up on your website?
Dion (51:33.886)
Yeah, they'll be up on the website. Yeah.
Tyson (51:36.650)
And I'll link that in the show notes below. So if anyone's listening in, I'd like to get out and get some coaching from you or join your crew for the long run. I'll make sure that they are, they have access to that through there. So, man, I won't, I won't take up too much more of your time, but as always, it's great to catch up with you, hear how you're tracking, pick your brains about all thing running and man, it's a, it's amazing how much is, uh, how much progress has happened since those early days when we used to run together down at the town. Huh?
Dion (52:00.850)
Yeah, I was a complete notice.
Tyson (52:04.834)
I think tides turned. I used to be the man who was trying to set the pace then. I think now I've got to try and return to catching you in some of those reps. So if I get on top of these calves, give me a couple of years and I'll try and do that so we can enjoy some training sessions together. All right, man. Hey, good luck for the Great Ocean Road 60K. Thanks for listening everyone. As I said, I'll whack those details in the show notes below. Sweet. Thanks again, man.
Dion (52:19.079)
Yeah, sounds good to us.
Dion (52:30.903)
Thanks, Toss.
Tyson (52:33.238)
Awesome, brother. Hey, that was really good, man. That was a great chat.