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USDN Podcast is a cinematic indie comics interview series hosted by the USDN_Chairman and the Council of Nerds spotlighting the creators, storytellers, and worldbuilders shaping the future of independent comics.
Each episode dives beyond headlines into the real journeys behind the books from Kickstarter launches and creative struggles to the philosophies driving today’s indie storytelling movement.
This isn’t about rumors or recycled news.
It’s about the people creating the worlds.
Through in-depth conversations, creator spotlights, and crowdfunding discussions, USDN explores:
• The rise of indie comics
• The business of crowdfunding
• The art of worldbuilding
• The realities of independent storytelling
USDN is where indie comics come to life for the fans, by the creators, and powered by the community.
You are listening to the USDN on the
DFPN.
What is up everybody and welcome to the
United States Department of Nerds where we
are for the people, by the people,
and of the people.
Some monsters hide in the shadows,
others hide in plain sight.
But behind every closed door,
every quiet neighborhood,
and every ordinary life,
there may be secrets waiting to be
uncovered, secrets buried in the dark,
and secrets that refuse to stay buried.
What if the people in that store spent
their nights hunting demons?
tonight we're joined by writer michael
barron and artist jack van tom van tommy
very close though we'll get there the
creative tea behind the secret lives of
demon hunters a supernatural horror comic
that asks a simple question
As their Kickstarter campaign prepares to
launch,
we'll pull back the curtain on the
creation of this dark new world,
the characters who inhabit it,
and the journey of bringing an independent
horror comic from imagination to reality.
So grab a flashlight, lock your doors,
and keep an eye on the shadows.
Ladies and gentlemen,
the Council of Nerds is now in session.
Michael, Jack, welcome to the Council,
friends.
Thanks, buddy.
Good to meet you.
All right, let's dive in.
So I know,
I can't remember how long y'all have been
on the list to be on the show,
but I know it's been probably a couple
of months now.
So welcome, man.
It's been a while.
I'm happy to have y'all here and to
talk about this book,
which was phenomenal, by the way.
Thank you.
So I appreciate you sending that over to
me and allowing me to read it.
People are in for something really fun
with this one.
And it's cool because I don't get to
do a lot of slice of life comics,
so to speak.
So it was something new and different for
me to get to read.
So let's dive into it.
So we'll start with Michael.
For those discovering this project for the
very first time,
what are they getting themselves into?
And also tell us a little bit about
yourself.
Give us a quick introduction and tell us
about the book.
well,
I'm Michael Baron and I'm of course the
writer of Secret Lives of Demon Hunters
and I mean that slice of life.
I mean,
I've been kind of calling it slice of
life horror where I mean like Don't get
me wrong.
This isn't a completely grounded story.
They're definitely demons in here Hunters
in here.
There's even a cameo of a family of
vampires spoiler alert But yeah,
there's also a lot of spoilers
There is a lot of focus on also
a, you know, somewhat on relationships.
And basically the heart of the story is
this married couple who happened to go out
at night and hunt demons together.
Jack, I'll kick it over to you.
Let people know who you are and kind
of like.
How did this project kind of land in
your lap?
Michael's already given me a little
background on the art of this book before
you took it over.
But let us know about you and what
it was like when you took over.
Yeah, of course.
So I've been doing indie comics,
anthologies,
one shots or limited series here and there
for a while.
Long time passion for art.
There's a bunch of paintings that I've
done on the wall.
There are a bunch more strewn about my
office floor right now.
But Michael reached out.
maybe a year and a half ago,
longer than that for a shorter project
that he was working on,
a really cool story called Patches
Rebellion that is well worth checking out.
And Michael can point you in the right
direction for that.
But a cool story that was kind of
nicely paced over the course of, you know,
five or six pages and had a lot
of opportunity to kind of draw the way
I want to.
And that's a huge thing as an artist
is being able to kind of like show
your work in the way that you want
it shown and have that kind of freedom
to not,
to draw in a specific way and so
you know he he had been kind enough
to work with me on that first project
and then reached out you know after that
was done and he said hey i've got
this other project and you know i want
the art to be done you know done
the right way and so um we chatted
about what the project was he sent over
the script and it was it was awesome
i mean slice of life horror is great
but it was also very compelling um some
quiet moments which i think a lot of
writers very frankly um and so that was
nice and as an artist we struggle way
more with it so that was a good
challenge kept me engaged with it um
And so I had been working on it
for a while,
had some very serious technical issues,
like a broken iPad kind of thing,
irrecoverable data kind of thing,
had to draw the book again kind of
a thing.
And we're like, we really love stuff.
And the collaboration with Mike throughout
the whole process has been awesome.
I got involved because Michael was bold
enough to make the wrong choice once,
picking me to work on Patches Rebellion,
and silly enough to make that choice
again.
You'll see those flaws come through in the
work, too,
when you take a look at the book.
It's wild that you mentioned that because
I really love those quiet panels where
there's no words.
It's just the art really letting you know
the story.
I can totally get where you're coming from
with that, Jack.
It's just being like,
I now have to make this art really
lay into this story.
This is going to be over to Michael
for this one since you did write this
book.
Where did this original idea come from for
this story?
Well,
originally I was going to do is just
kind of a short piece,
like a little five page thing.
So like Patches Rebellion, I kind of,
you know,
got the idea for this couple who hunted
demons together.
And to be honest,
it was kind of based on my wife
and I run marathons together.
And so I like the idea of telling
a story about this married couple who are
going through something that's both
emotionally and physically, you know,
somewhat dangerous and intense and
everything.
And I showed it to some beta readers.
And basically the feedback I got was you
need to expand on this.
Like they just wanted to know more about
this married couple and like the world
that they lived in.
And so it just kind of grew and
it grew into this full length one shot.
No, I like that.
And you're the second marathon runner
that's been on in this month.
So somebody is telling me that I need
to start doing this again.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I run my agent miles on my birthday
every year.
Yeah.
It's fine.
It's cool.
You probably will be.
Yeah, man.
Y'all.
y'all are doing this on your own free
will nobody's chasing you making threats
are y'all safe at home i mean kind
of making me like pseudo making me no
i i need to get back into it
i i let myself go and i need
to get back into doing something so it's
fun like honestly if i were just like
running
three or four miles or whatever,
I wouldn't be as into it.
But like the whole like pushing yourself
as far as you can go,
that's honestly when I started to really
enjoy.
I know that sounds kind of weird.
That's when I kind of enjoyed it more
once I kind of increased it.
Yeah.
And I have no respect for that approach,
so don't worry about it.
I don't want to know my limits.
I'm fine.
I'm complacent.
Let me just stay status quo.
Just chug out boring junk miles every day.
it's great yeah well do you ever just
like start running and get and you realize
like oh shit you know maybe i should
turn around now and you're like i got
no idea where i am let me just
uber at home no i i run a
very typical suburban route and it's like
i have a friend he's he's like a
He lives in the Pacific Northwest and does
like these fifty mile sojourns that are
incredible,
like the scenic beauty of all nature.
And it's always a different route every
single day.
I live in the suburbs outside of
Minneapolis and I run straight one way,
turn left, turn right,
turn left and then do the same thing
back.
And he'll text me and he's like,
are you good?
This is awful.
And I was like, oh, it's great.
I got to listen to a full podcast.
It's like, yeah, it's it's awesome.
And nothing more head clearing than there
is nothing to look at right now,
aside from the same ten houses.
None of them have garage sales.
All the people are boring.
It's great.
I love it.
I had a buddy of mine that did
extreme marathons.
He did the Pacific Coast Highway Marathon
from Washington to Baja,
California or whatever it is.
I'll hard pass on that one.
Yeah, that sounds awful.
I'll run to the store in my car.
How about that?
There you go.
My wife and I,
we have done our training on the NCR
trail that goes up to the Pennsylvania
border.
And that is just like kind of twenty
miles and it goes on even further into
Pennsylvania.
And so we definitely have just been
running through the woods and it's like
we're going a total of sixteen, eighteen,
however many miles.
And then, of course,
it starts to rain or thaw.
Of course.
Of course.
You know,
and we have to kind of figure our
way back.
At least you ain't got to worry about
gators and stuff up there.
It's too cold.
I have seen gators running a marathon,
though.
I've ran them in Florida.
I've ran them in Florida where, like,
I played golf in Florida where you would
just play around the gator into the hole.
Yeah.
Yeah, that was always a good time.
And people went there on purpose.
It was crazy.
Anyway.
Wild, right?
Yeah.
Hurricanes, tornadoes, water spouts,
alligators, American crocodiles,
rattlesnakes, you name it.
Tourists.
It's great.
Tourists.
Yeah.
I lived there seven years.
I loved it.
That's enough.
So where did the original idea kind of
come from this, Michael?
Well, I mean,
it really was just sort of like a
–
You know,
I had been working on Patches and other
things that were just sort of the
paranormal stuff.
For those of you, obviously,
probably most of you who don't know,
Patches Rebellion,
it was the five-page comic.
Is it on your website?
I do have references to it on my
website, yes.
That's down in the description.
Yeah.
It is...
in the Blood, Coven, Moon,
Magic anthology that recently came out.
So I don't have it for free on
my website yet.
But it was kind of told from the
point of view of a teddy bear that
rebels against its evil four-year-old
owner.
It's sort of like,
as much as I love Pixar,
it was an entire toy story.
It kind of believed the other toys in
rebellion against them.
yeah so it was this fun little horror
story and then i was kind of like
and i've done some other things with other
writing there was um they do tend to
be told from the point of view of
like the creatures the stuff i read but
i was like okay well what about the
people who are acting in response to yeah
very grindle love you and so i um
so that and then combination with um
you know,
just kind of wanting to do something about
our married couple.
That's kind of where I came up with
our demon hunters here.
I like, you know,
take this one over to you, Jack.
What was like one of the first things
like that had you excited about this
project other than to get, you know,
to do your own style of artwork on
this?
Yeah, I mean,
I think one of the the biggest moments
when any artist is looking at a book
is is when they really start to feel
like they get the story.
Like there are, you know,
I think people see a script and they
break it down into what are the big
action scenes,
what are sort of like the tentpole pages.
And the vast majority of my practice as
a comics artist is through the Comic Jam,
which is a really great learning
organization.
Like it's a group of people that are
all very like minded, super friendly,
welcoming.
And their goal is pretty simple.
Artist makes a single page a week with
a writer who writes a single page a
week.
that kind of thing.
And you join in when you have time
and when you have flexibility and that
sort of thing.
And what it really trained me to do
is think about making comics in a way
that's like each page has to be kind
of self-contained and tell its own story
and feel complete.
Otherwise, like, I don't know,
comics is not very fast.
If you're an artist, it takes time.
And because of that,
if you are kind of grinding away for
hours on a single page, that is nothing.
It's not part of the story.
It doesn't matter.
You know, like that's,
that can be really frustrating.
So, um,
I think about that alongside Kurt Vonnegut
is an all-time great of mine in terms
of writing, like a phenomenal writer.
And he talks about the importance of every
sentence having a purpose,
telling something new about a character,
projecting something new every character
has to want something.
All of these things are very simple and
fundamental.
And so I found a number of pages
throughout the story that have that.
And there's a scene that happens in the
barn where you see this kind of
transitional moment,
which I will not spoil more of.
But there's this transitional moment with
one of the characters.
there are some really big broad strokes
that you can take in horror to show
the monster.
And I never like,
sure you can do the CGI.
You can do like,
there's a temptation to kind of prove your
work as an artist and show this really
gruesome, awful thing.
And I think it's actually more interesting
sometimes to let it be simple and to
let what's happening be something that's
like, Oh no, I recognize that.
That still looks real.
And so there are a couple of scenes
throughout there.
When I was getting to those points in
the script, I was like, this is great.
And it's going to feel fun to draw
and it's going to feel explosive to draw.
And then to think about that with the
rest of the book was like, all right,
there's a lot of different moments where I
could find throughout there.
I was like,
I can tell the individual page of this
or the individual story of this page
pretty concisely and long way of saying,
I don't know.
It was all interesting.
It was all fun.
But that there are certain points
throughout the story where you'll be able
to tell on the page that it's like,
you know, this,
this got me especially engaged with,
with that kind of contained story.
No, I do.
So I love horror.
That's one of my favorite comic book
types.
Everybody wants to have their own little
monster.
And sometimes it's just scarier where you
just never see it.
You know it's there.
You know it's murdering people.
You know it's killing people,
eating people, whatever it may be.
But you just never see it.
You see the aftermath of the monster.
And then it can go on for several
issues just where you never see it until
it's either caught, killed,
or what have you.
And then you have this big grand reveal.
And I just think those are like really
fun.
Sometimes when the muster wins and he gets
away and you just never see him.
Yeah.
And you see that in some of the
pages too.
Like there's,
I'm picturing them in my head.
So if you see me looking off to
the side,
I'm pulling those pages up in my head.
There are spots where like, you know,
in the grand tradition of all of art
history,
The details fade as they get into the
distance.
The details fade and our minds fill in
those gaps.
And really good horror lies in that
filling in the gaps.
And so there's a lot of things in
Mike's writing too that kind of fit that
bill too.
Like there are things that go unsaid by
the characters and there is not dialogue
for them.
It's quiet moments or it's moments where
certain words were chosen,
but not other ones.
And what our brains fill in,
that is how we start to engage, right?
When our brains start to say,
what is really happening on this page?
That's when we start to exit that point
of like we're a reader and instead we're
a participant.
We're learning about the story.
We're learning about how to engage with a
narrative.
And I find that really appealing.
And I try to capture that in some
of my art.
It also very conveniently allows you to,
you know,
take a break.
You don't have to draw every single detail
because we know that if you see a
foot, there's shoelaces on it, right?
I'm not Rob Liefeld.
I'm not going to scare you,
but I'm not going to draw every little
knot on there.
No offense.
Don't send this to him.
He'll probably beat me up.
He's way stronger than me.
Oh, dude, that was fucking classic.
Part of my language, but I love it.
No, go for it.
Personally,
I have respect for all great comics
artists and stuff like that.
I love watching that back and forth where
you're like, man,
you got,
you guys got some thin skin sometimes.
It's like, Oh,
he will shut it down to like the
moment he feels like he's being insulted.
He's like, this is over.
We're done.
Yeah.
Which to be fair,
if you've got that much experience and
that much success in the field,
I don't care if your art's not for
me.
Like you've got my respect.
That's, that's huge kind of stuff.
Something worse.
Otherwise he wouldn't have been around as
long as he has.
And there's,
there's a big thing in saying, I mean,
this will relate back to our story here,
but like,
there's a big thing in knowing your
audience.
And that's one thing that I really
appreciated with working with Mike is,
you know, we talked about that throughout,
like who,
who is the real audience on this?
And, and is the question is like,
do you want to get this into as
many hands as possible?
Do you want this to be the mass
marketed toy story version?
Or do you want this to be like
this true narrative?
And it finds an audience because it's
authentic.
And I think we ended up on the
ladder, which feels very noble.
Right.
But like the idea of telling a story
that feels authentic and feels lived in is
so appealing.
And yeah,
know as an indie comics person where
you're like yeah dude would i like it
if more people saw my work sure but
really i want to make stories that i'm
interested in too because the likelihood
of telling an interesting story if i
commit to it is so high and the
likelihood of like telling a big two style
story that gets to you know however many
thousands of people like that's a lot
harder and and you know it requires a
different kind of um approach sometimes
Yeah, and this,
if I can just add on.
Yeah, no, go ahead.
Like, I mean,
this might be an odd thing to say
since we're promoting our Kickstarter,
but I mean, this comic isn't for everyone.
Not everyone who reads it is going to
be like, you know, this is their jam.
but I think that just, you know,
I mean, you know,
and also just to an extent,
like what story, you know,
really is for everyone.
Like, I mean, Wally, maybe,
but other than, you know,
but I'm hoping that like the people this
is for will really love it and it
will be more for it since it is
more for like kind of a specific audience.
Yeah, no.
And I got to fill in like,
Even for me,
I get the opportunity to read so many
different comics and plus my personal
stuff that I collect and read.
And I always appreciate every effort put
into every piece of comic made that I
get to read.
Even though I would never pick up a
slice of life.
I have no real interest in it.
But then you add the horror element into
it.
I'm like, okay.
you got my interest now and let's see
how this plays out and honestly this
wouldn't work for me on so many different
levels but let's build this world real
quick so ashley and jordy look very
different lives depending on who's looking
at them what can you tell us about
these characters well um
Ashley is... I mean, they're partners.
But Ashley is the leader.
I mean, that kind of comes forward.
And also,
she is the point-of-view character
throughout.
But they're also...
two people who rely on each other very
much one thing i told jack towards the
very beginning um of all this um when
he was working on this is throughout the
entire story you know they flirt and they
get into arguments and sometimes they're
not getting along but throughout it all
they're always in love with each other um
and so they do have this sort of
balance of that but also this extreme
darkness that they're also facing um
And also,
they're also kind of used to the darkness
too.
I try to make it like, you know,
this is another,
or at least it starts off as just
being another gig.
Like they're as used to this as I
would be when I'm going to work kind
of thing.
It's just, of course,
at a certain point does go a little
off the rails.
No, that's typical, right?
only horror story out there is the one
that you're currently in right and
marriage can be look like that from the
outside sometimes but twenty years in and
i'm doing good so the peanut gallery
coming from her room but um and you
covered it you believed it we there was
i can tell that there was good banter
and if she can hear me she knows
that i thought whatever she said was funny
And then the doorbell ring, of course,
too.
Dude, she's not watching the stream.
Now there's strife.
She's preparing for her.
She's got summer college courses she's
doing.
She's doing that.
She's getting her money's worth from the
university.
All right.
I don't mind it.
What makes them different from the typical
Monster Hunter readers may be familiar
with, a la, you know,
something that's killing the children or
something like that?
Well,
I love something that's killing the
children, although...
I think that's a great book.
One thing that I do think sets them
apart is that Ashley and Geordi are more
like the kind of people you might run
into at the grocery store.
They are more just sort of like,
you know,
more down to earth kind of folk who
have just one way or another fallen into
this world.
With Ashley,
we see how she fell into this world.
With Geordi,
I kept that a little bit more at
arm's length.
And so there is that side where they
are just kind of I don't want to
say normal But yeah,
typical people who got you run to the
grocery store We all we all know couples
like this people who have been married for
a while.
They still flirt.
They still are really in love with each
other and by the same time they have
this other side to them and
and i think it's that juxtaposition is the
reason why i have stuck with these
characters i love stories with
juxtapositions where you have these two
sides of the characters the story or the
world it shouldn't fit but absolutely do
No, I like it.
And I bring up, you know,
something's killing children because off
the top of my head,
that's the only thing I can really think
of with people hunting demons.
I mean, yeah,
we're not going to run into Erica
Slaughter with her machete or her chainsaw
at the grocery store, I hope.
If we do, then... She has to eat,
right?
I mean... But, like, really, you look at,
like, Van Helsing or whatever,
just there's...
there does feast yeah well that's but
that's the thing like john constantine
people have to eat people have to have
opinions and i know it sounds like i'm
goofing here but like the characters when
you read them there's you know in twenty
four pages how many character interactions
are you really gonna have but like in
those limited interactions you have a
sense of hey what are they doing on
a weekend like you have that sense you
could project that and um i think the
fact that you know people like them
makes it more relatable, right?
You can imagine whether or not that's you.
I personally would never be an IPA
drinker.
I have no respect for those kinds of
people.
I, um,
and if any of your fans out there
are those kinds of people,
I hope that they unfollow me or something
like that.
But these, these,
are you saying you're a champagne and
beers type of guy?
Nah.
Um, I, I'm an NA drinker,
like an NA beer guy.
And the, the pickings are so slim that,
And so, but they've gotten better.
So like an athletic brewing wit beer is
very good.
I will throw that out there.
That's pretty solid.
But anyway,
I digress and trying to rile people up.
These characters are, they're real people.
They have that kind of attitude and that
feel where I think a lot of horror,
the tendency is to lean so hard into
the camp element of it, which is awesome.
And I love that, but.
when you try to do that and hold
in there, that idea of like,
this is real character relationship and
trauma and stress.
Those two things are really hard to hold
at the same time.
And so I think it is, you know,
just as big of a swing as like
a character with a machete and like,
I'm thinking of Bruce Campbell,
like these are characters.
Yeah.
I love them,
but it's also a pretty big swing to
say, you know what?
we're going to make these characters feel
grounded and real and still give them
those kind of horrific.
That's really compelling to me.
Yeah.
No, that again,
that's what stuck for me with this is
they're just a married couple chilling on
the weekends.
The only difference is instead of staying
in and watching a movie,
they're doing what they do.
So it adds up this really cool element
to what could be, you know,
a typical suburban night, you know,
My comps for this,
the comparisons when I've been like
talking about it,
have been that it's something's killing
the children with the relationship drama
of Saga.
Saga is so good.
So that's a great comparison.
And also, Jack, by the way,
I think you and I have very similar
opinions about IPAs.
Yeah, it's tough not to.
We lived in Madison, Wisconsin, which is,
if you've seen that map.
There's IPA heaven right there.
Yeah, it really is.
I mean,
anybody who is in Wisconsin for a long
time,
Carbon Four has this Fantasy Factory beer.
You can look it up, whatever.
It's top tier, like double IPA, strong.
But it's also like exactly what I don't
like in an IPA.
But I recognize, again, not for me,
but it's for somebody.
And the people that like it, oh,
huge fans.
So anyway,
got to give them a shout out every
once in a while.
And great cheese from up there.
Like they make some of the best homemade
cheese I've ever had the pleasure of
eating.
Oh, yeah.
This is a little fun fact here.
So my wife's family is from like she's
from the Green Bay area.
And her grandpa started a very popular
like cheese factory up there.
And so she would tell these stories.
And this is going to sound terrifying.
They don't do this anymore.
It's all quality.
But she tells these stories about how when
she would visit her grandparents,
she would be allowed to go to the
cheese factory, which, again,
cheese factory.
Love it.
And she would be able to dip her
hand into the thing of cheese curds.
This is the part where I'm like,
they don't do this anymore, I am sure.
There's FDA regulations about this now.
Yeah, they probably don't want...
It is her fault,
the reason why there's now FDA
regulations.
Right, she's the one...
You'll lose a child or two.
Yeah,
the USDA is getting in there because they
saw her digging her mitts through there to
get a couple of cheese curds.
But you talk about this,
and you have these cheese curds,
and you're like, oh my God,
if you understand what a squeaky cheese
curd is...
like first of all yes please come on
um but is i mean it's a culture
and and people think it's exaggerating but
no man that's not it's real it's yeah
yeah yeah so good like now i want
cheese curds all of a sudden and i
can't have them
But so I got to ask you though,
she's from the green Bay area.
Are the children,
they're really bored with cheese heads on
their head.
Like already they just pop out.
She said, yeah, no, they aren't.
And this is, I appreciate that.
You've got a bad life choice later.
You're right now.
So I'm from Minnesota originally living
here now too.
And so I'm like a lifelong hockey guy
and I'm also, you know, voluntarily,
I am willing to tell everybody that
Minnesota sports are,
terrible like i love them i will support
the team i am you know happy when
they win and whatnot that's the first step
of the grieving process is yeah i've
accepted it it's fine paul bear is at
your funeral always gonna let you down
it's great don't worry about it right but
like then you meet somebody from green bay
where they're like oh god and she's not
a crazy football fan or whatever but you
know you meet somebody from green bay and
the team can do no wrong and green
bay is basically lambeau stadium and
lambeau field and you're just like
All right, guys, this is phenomenal.
So anyway, these kids are born,
and my in-laws are very excited for them
to have Packers gear on.
And they're here, and they're like,
are you going to have a problem with
them wearing Packers stuff in Minnesota?
I was like, I don't care.
I couldn't care less.
It's so hard to rile me up about
football because I'm like,
I assume that the Vikings will lose even
if they already won.
Like,
there's no chance that it's going to
happen.
Hey,
they had a pretty decent year last year.
At least I thought they were going to.
Yeah, they had –
I will tell you that as a guy
who watches very little football and like
pretty much mostly hockey, you know,
I love nine.
I'm really proud of him.
I'm glad he's getting out there and
getting reps.
But wow,
is that a hard team to watch sometimes?
Dude, I'm a Bears fan.
Trust me.
I get it.
You're a Bears fan, you said?
Yeah, I get it.
Yeah, but.
what worst thing you did in the past
couple of years is Trubisky.
I don't know.
I say all this as if he was
the worst thing we did.
Yeah.
It's done worse.
Football can be really challenging to
watch.
Cause you're like, God,
like the Vikings have some very good
receiver core, crazy good receiver core.
And yet can they do anything in those
games where that's really critical?
Like it's tough to watch.
Yeah, dude, I get it.
And we're way off on this tangent.
No, dude,
this is the type of conversations I
absolutely love here.
But um,
so I know this is this is a
one shot, correct?
Correct?
Yeah.
So when you close out this book,
I mean, I've read it,
but
pretending that I haven't read this yet.
So how much world building is this beyond
the pages of this comic?
Is this going to be like,
did you kind of leave it at a
point where if you want to revisit later,
you can.
I'm sorry,
I broke up there for a second.
You mean like if you were to go
ahead and read it again,
would you pick up on more details?
No, no, no, no, no.
So how much of this world exists beyond
the pages of this comic?
Meaning like if you wanted to come back
and revisit this comic book and do another
chapter of it, you could do that?
Or is it just a one and done,
we're going to file it away and never
bring it back out again?
It's there definitely are things in my
head about this world and the characters
that didn't make it to the page Because
as much as you can tell a pretty
big story in twenty four pages But you
can only tell so much in twenty four
pages So there were a few things that
didn't quite make it And there's just some
stuff that's in my head that never really
was intended just to help flush out the
characters and the world and everything
and
So I could definitely give them another
story.
And I mean, if I were,
I think it would be sort of like
both a prequel and a sequel thing,
like with going back and forth in time,
with maybe how they started it off when
they were in college,
and then also maybe pushing forward into
the future,
because we're all about pushing forward
into what happens next in stories.
I always say if you mess up somewhere
in your story,
you can always fix it with the flashback.
The problem is you don't have any
grayscale that you can use, right?
Like the whole book is in black and
white.
So what am I going to put everything
in color now?
Like it's better call Saul to go back.
Like just.
No, that would be cool though.
Like have a flashback in color.
Then when you come back to reality,
that would be, that'd be kind of trippy.
Yeah.
I mean,
there's elements of that that are there.
in the back of my mind.
Pixels, yeah, we'll go back.
Some gradients.
The gutters.
The gutters in the past are different from
present.
See,
you're being practical and actually
solving this problem.
I'm just goofing here.
No,
I can't change the color of the gutters.
Oh, I mean, what is this?
Pre-Nineteen ninety three before image
came along and said the hell with gutters.
We don't need that kind of shit here.
OK, that's the flashback.
So I'll just as cowboys.
There we go.
That's there.
I like that.
We need more.
we need more comic books about cowboys i'm
just saying yeah and the last time i
said that we got three like almost within
a couple of weeks of each other it
was kind of crazy yeah i feel like
i've been seeing and you're gonna ask me
for examples and i can't think of anything
off my head but i feel like i've
been seeing more indie comics that are
westerns yeah like they might be sci-fi
westerns or horror westerns hey disco
comics released a bug spaghetti western
about bugs
Really great, by the way.
Really great.
So what kind of demons inhabit this world?
And I'll start that with you, Michael,
and then you can kick it down to
Jack to kind of tell us how he
approached those.
I'm picturing this being...
World where there are more the demons more
incorporal They are more like entities
that will possess you and it being less
maybe fewer like horns and Yeah,
and more just like things that will get
into your soul
I mean there are references to like you
know sentient shadows and like cursed
YouTube like you know things like that But
I'm picturing these kind of being things
that might have So be like a little
bit distant from our world as far as
exactly what's happening Like it's not
like there are demon bars or anything like
that and
It would be cool if there was,
I mean, it might be,
then it would be a different issue,
a different book.
Yeah.
Okay.
Maybe in the prequel sequel,
we might deal with that, but that's,
that's sort of kind of like how,
at least I was like,
like these things are still kind of in
the shadow harder to actually see maybe
more of like, I mean,
I don't know if this is the best
comparison,
but maybe more in the direction of a
Lynchian kind of thing.
Okay.
Like a Buffy kind of thing.
Yeah.
Fair enough.
And that's kind of the way I approached
it too.
I mean, my thought is always, you know,
ounce for ounce a person's body is their
body like that's the basic idea like part
of the reason that the fly is such
a good horror film is because you watch
that body horror and you see that like
the body is distending and it's getting
thinner and bones are like you can't
imagine without i think for a lot of
us that was our for a lot of
us it was our very first body horror
was the fly yeah and it and it's
like an example for a reason like it
is so good because it
feels grounded and real to the to the
human body like and and because of that
our brains can lock into it and think
about yeah what does that feel like what
does that do and so um you know
i won't spoil too much on on kind
of the art in there or anything like
that but i i approach it from that
perspective of there can be things that
are sort of horrifying to look at but
in reality you are still comprising the
same atoms as you were before and um
the other thing i think that comes through
in a couple of the different characters
that i'm thinking of is
you know,
horror and demonic possession and that
kind of stuff is just as much about
the vehicle as it is about the driver.
And so when like an evil embodies someone,
it is not just the fact that you
can visually see it,
but it's also the words that you hear.
And I'm thinking specifically towards the
end of the book, there's, you know,
there's a character where you're like,
I don't even know if you're possessed,
but you are,
you're saying some things that are that
kind of malevolent spirit to them.
This is a little,
it's a little evil right now.
And
Um, that idea of, you know,
the line between possessed and evil and,
you know, what we think of as,
you know,
within the realm of human behavior is
pretty blurry at times.
Because of that,
I think you see the same thing in
the way that I draw the horror.
The morals in, I mean,
I don't know about the morals,
but like demons versus humans and all that
stuff,
it's supposed to kind of be morally more
gray.
Like it's not supposed to be just like
this black and white humans are good,
demons are evil kind of thing.
And once again,
don't want to spoil too much,
but it does kind of get into that.
Yeah.
Clearly,
y'all have never vacationed down in the
panhandle of Florida.
You can't tell the difference there.
It's just normal Floridian behavior.
I've been to Tallahassee,
and we vacationed.
That's pretty close.
I've been to different parts.
I've been to Texas on purpose more than
once.
I love Texas.
I'm a huge fan of Texas.
I was in...
I'm going to sound like an idiot.
I was outside of Houston for a while
for a work thing.
And it was super cool,
super fun place to be.
So I shouldn't knock it.
Yeah,
I'm going to start talking about food
right now.
That's going to be a problem.
Yeah, no, let's not do that.
Yeah, it's going to get bad.
Yeah,
so every book that has demons or monsters
or what have you, they have rules.
So were there any rules that you
established early on that became important
to the story in this world?
And Michael, I'll start there with you,
and then we can kick it down to
Jack and just kind of see how he
approached those rules if there were any.
I think the main rule that I gave
to myself, like,
I didn't want to give myself any rules
that prevent the story from progressing
the way it needed to go.
But I think the rule, like,
you see the demon.
Like, you do see stuff, like, you know,
and the battles with that.
But I also wanted to keep it to...
I don't mean they're literally in the
shadows,
but I kind of wanted like what this
thing is and what this thing exactly is
is still kind of a little shadowy.
Like we don't get their full backstory.
And so I did kind of want to
keep fully what is happening a little bit
at arm's length.
So I think that's the closest thing to
a rule I really gave to myself.
Although I really like the way Jack put
it as far as you only have so
many atoms in your body.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I mean,
the piece that comes through and I'm
thinking about this is the fact that words
matter.
And that's not a hard and fast rule.
But that idea of we say certain things
in certain ways and they have certain
effects,
which is as vague as I can possibly
be here.
But like that comes up a couple of
different times.
It's not a hard and fast rule.
And I think anybody who pretends that,
you know, saying specific words, you know,
is always going to produce the same effect
isn't isn't the same thing it's more like
this intention this meaning this desire to
do something is important to producing the
effect that you're going for and so um
you know i i approached you with that
lens that when a character is speaking
certain words or being instructed to speak
certain words that that's significant um
so and you'll see it a couple times
in the book that that that kind of
comes through but
Um,
that's one of those cases where expression
and those more subtle nuanced kind of
approaches to drawing are important.
And, um, because of that,
it can be really challenging and taxing to
be like,
I gotta make sure the expression is right.
I can't overdraw this.
I have to, you know,
let people fill in the gaps of the
details where they do.
And so that's one thing that I try
to really be cautious of is, you know,
over prescribing what people should see on
the page i leave a lot of space
to to fill in the gaps and i
like that um and that's one thing that
that i think blends really nicely with
mike's writing as long as you cite the
incantation correctly yeah the way i hope
both of y'all got that reference
The Necronomicon.
Permia Darkness.
Make sure you say the incantation exactly.
It's been a while since I've seen that
one.
Otherwise,
there's no reason for anybody to ever say
incantation like it says incantation.
I can think of a couple of reasons.
Misspelling of incantation.
Inconsiderate?
Yeah.
But let's talk about creating horror in
comics.
So horror works differently in comics than
it does in the movies.
What makes horror effective in the comic
book medium?
And I'll start that with you, Michael,
and then we can kick it down to
Jack.
I mean, obviously there's the whole, like,
the final panel on the odd pages where
you set it up.
And that doesn't just have to do with
horror.
I mean, you know,
that you could do that with, like, you...
get down to that bottom panel and it's
built up for something and you turn the
page and you don't unless if you flip
through the book of course you don't know
what you're going to see and i've
definitely been in that moment with like a
bunch of books where there is that sort
of pause where instead of the movies like
pushing you forward theoretically you
really have no control uh and i think
that's why a lot of people prefer watching
horror at home as opposed to the theater
because they have more control over
you know positive emotions um but there
you don't want to scream like a girl
in public come on there's that too um
i mean i i like horror movies and
theaters but i've definitely met a lot of
people like oh yeah i do want to
see obsession but when i can see it
at home um but yeah there is that
with comics you're kind of choosing to
turn that page so you're kind of going
at your own pace and you're kind of
choosing to see the next thing that is
going to be in that next panel on
the even page
Jack, I'll kick it down to you.
Yeah.
I mean, I think, you know,
comics is such an interesting medium
because when you're looking at, you know,
a movie or, you know, four by three,
I guess, old school TV shot, you know,
there is a format and a specific way
that you compose a page or you compose
an image or you compose a story and
it all hits those same third lines.
Like I'm speaking very specifically to
that, you know,
that artist's aesthetic of
you know,
things are proportioned in a certain way.
We establish a two shot in this way.
We establish things in a certain way.
But with comics,
you don't have to do that.
And comics,
you're allowed to break those lines and
you're allowed to have something jump out
of the page by literally overlapping that
gutter.
Right.
You're allowed to have that.
And because of that,
it is more graphic and it's more dynamic.
And then there's the other side of it.
That's like movies are twenty four frames
a second or were for a long time.
Right.
And comics are
I don't know,
you spend twenty to thirty minutes reading
twenty four pages and, you know,
generously one hundred panels,
one hundred twenty panels.
So one hundred twenty frames over thirty
minutes of time,
you are really filling in a lot of
those gaps.
And that, again,
appeals to that kind of horror aesthetic
of like, all right,
there is stuff that I need to fill
in.
And so if you can get someone really
engaged with the story that you're telling
and let them live and breathe in the
art and the writing,
and frankly, just for the amount of time,
they're spending a lot of time with that
art.
If you can let them feel like they're
engaged with it and trying to interpret
and trying to feel that atmosphere,
that is really effective.
And then panel to panel,
having them try to interpret what is
happening,
how we're bouncing around the space,
that does a lot of the same things
that good horror does, right?
It doesn't over-prescribe to the audience.
It lets them go in.
It trusts them to read and it trusts
them to understand and interpret nuance.
So, I mean,
that's one thing that always draws me to
it in comics.
I've done...
quite a bit of horror comics.
I was looking back at my, you know,
history.
I'm like,
I'm not a horror guy all the time.
Like a lot of the stuff that I
showed you, it's within arm's reach.
It's very adorable.
It's cute little bears and stuff like
that.
But I'm,
I gravitate towards horror a lot because I
think it has a lot of that serious,
but still explosive kind of energy to it.
No, I,
horror has always pulled me more toward
it.
I don't,
I'm not a gore guy or blood splatter
guy.
I just, it's just such a,
you do so much within the genre.
Yes.
You can play with so much and it
just kind of,
has the ability to pull you in,
even if you say, oh,
I'm not a horror guy,
but you find that right comic book that's
built around horror,
you're going to get them.
You're going to pull them in,
and they're going to be like,
maybe I am a horror guy,
or maybe I'm just a fan of this
specific horror genre.
But I don't know what it is.
Just something about it just speaks to the
soul.
I mean,
horror works so well with other genres.
You can mix and match it, right?
You can see horror, sci-fi horror,
and I love them all.
And it's also of the mainstream genres,
it's the least predictable, I feel like.
I mean, it's also like...
I went to see Obsession a couple weeks
ago,
and I had considerably less of an idea
of exactly where this movie was going to
go than I might if,
as much as I love superhero movies,
than if I went to see a superhero
movie.
Yeah, I mean,
there are twists and turns and stuff like
that.
But a lot of times,
and there is that comfort of, okay,
the hero's most likely going to win.
And at least to a certain extent.
Whereas with horror,
it really is up in the air.
They don't have to go in.
These characters are going to survive.
There are some horrors that have happy
endings.
I feel like most have at least somewhat
complex endings.
I'm a fan of the complex endings or
a fan of when the good guy doesn't
win, the bad guy doesn't win.
The people reading this at the end of
the day is going to be winning.
That's what I'm a fan of.
Let the bad guy win sometimes.
It's okay for that to happen.
the good guy does not always have to
win.
Yeah.
And an interesting story,
like an interesting ending is way more
appealing than the surety of either one.
Frankly,
like the bad guy winning is sometimes like
people talk about that with infinity war
spoilers for what nine-year-old movie,
something like that, eight-year-old movie.
But, you know,
they talk about the bad guy winning as
such this revolutionary idea.
And it's like,
as long as it's earned or as long
as it feels like it,
wasn't wasting your time or teasing you
the whole time like that that's really
appealing to me you know those those kind
of things and you know um this is
not a spoiler at all but i think
there are elements of both sides of that
for for this story that um make it
a pretty satisfying read no i agree and
this is for both of you and i'll
start it with you first jack were there
any scenes that were just particularly
like difficult to create for you
Yeah, that's a good question.
I think there are some kind of like
I think of a story and kind of
there's five beats that I have in my
head.
And there's a couple of them that are
more action or more moving through the
space kind of oriented.
And some of those quieter beats where,
you know, it's a conversation.
It's a transitional moment moving from one
space to the other.
And what they do in that space in
the interim is those can be a little
tricky, right?
Because the idea that you see a lot
on screen is somebody is always holding a
thing.
You know,
there's never two people talking with just
their hands in their pockets.
One of them's got a cup of coffee
or whatever.
And those things can be a little difficult
or feel insincere to fill in.
And so for me,
I have to work with like, all right,
how do I want to show the space
in an interesting way without it feeling
like I'm trying to oversell the fact that
they are walking from one room to another,
right?
How do I make that feel compelling?
I'm not wasting their time reading it or
my time drawing it while still knowing
that what we're doing fundamentally is
showing that transition so that it isn't
so abrupt that they're transported from
one spot to another.
Those are the spots that take a little
time.
The way that as an artist I try
to account for that is to just be
honest with what's happening on the page.
Give you the raw illustration.
This is these two characters moving from
here to there.
Sometimes those are the most simple and
frankly probably the panels I spend the
least time on,
but
That also is just,
it comes from a place of honesty about
like,
what is exciting as an artist to draw?
Not every panel is the most bombastic
thing on earth because, you know,
interesting panels are defined by how they
stand relative to uninteresting panels.
And I think sometimes it's okay to be
like, this one's gonna be a little flat,
right?
It's okay for those people.
you gotta tell a story somehow in the
arts what tells the story with the words
backing it up so yeah people are going
to be walking in a comic book so
yeah yeah you know yeah you can't leap
everywhere yeah it can't all be splashed
pages yeah well well i'm sure there are
any comments image i was trying to think
of the one that is twenty four splash
pages in a row that it exists i
have i actually have that one i think
I mean, it is an image comic.
I just don't remember which image comic.
Yeah,
I'm going to I am going to be
looking this up because it's always just
hilarious to me.
Like as early on in drawing what I
thought were good comics, I was like,
I want to do that.
It looked easy.
I was like, I'm an idiot.
I know myself.
And I'll kick the same question to you,
Michael, from a writer's perspective,
as you're piecing together this story,
like,
was there just that scene where you're
like, whether it was an emotional moment,
a complex moment between the characters or
between the characters and a demon,
just something that was just like, damn,
I don't know.
The ending.
Of course, it's always the ending.
Of course,
I can't get into too much details.
But yeah, I wrote like
eight not eight like five to six different
endings for this thing um because like
literally what we're just talking about
you know i i don't want it to
be a sunshine lollipops puppy dogs kind of
thing um but i also kind of wanted
didn't want it to be like completely grim
and well you know
Like, and it's fine.
And other,
and there are some stories where it's fun
to have like puppy dogs and lollipops into
those endings.
But for this one,
I wanted that complex ending.
And, you know, those are the best.
And I feel like all genres,
but they're also the hardest to write.
And to like,
I had endings that have nothing to do
with,
um what we ended up with um you
know and i i'm not just trying to
like you know whatever but um i definitely
picked the best one because looking back
so they're like no no i'm glad i
mean i feel like sorry um
you have to get the bad ideas out.
It's almost sort of like you, I mean,
I wrote out most of these things before
I scrapped them,
but many times I just make a list
of different things that could happen
next.
And the first three or four are like
the very typical predictable ones.
But then once you start getting those out
of your brain and you start like looking
for other options,
that's when you start to get things that
are a little bit more interesting.
So this is kind of a question for
both of you.
And I don't know if I've ever asked
this question,
but it's always something that's in the
back of my mind is at what point,
cause you know,
comic books have obviously have a
beginning, a middle and an end,
but at what point between the middle and
the end,
do you start laying in that those
breadcrumbs or those little things that
lets you know that, Hey,
we're getting close to the end of the
story?
Um,
I would,
it is definitely around the three-quarter
mark, I would say.
Once again,
trying to avoid getting into too much
details,
but there is definitely that return.
Yeah, that was just in general.
I don't want you to spoil nothing.
It was just like,
because I've seen that so many different
ways.
I've seen where you can predict the end
from the beginning of the book, like how,
like, oh,
that's almost a dead giveaway how this is
going to end, and that is the ending.
But it's just kind of like,
Like, how did you go about that,
you know?
Like,
three quarters of the way in is really
good because it's still enough time to lay
the base and the foundation to build to
the end.
And sometimes...
I wasn't necessarily going for it with
this one.
Sometimes being able to kind of predict or
see a twist coming isn't the worst thing
in the world.
I feel like a twist where you can
kind of see it coming is better than
one that's so far out of left field.
Like, oh, well, there's
Rules don't matter anymore.
You can do whatever.
Why not bring back Elvis?
He's still alive and well.
He's in Puerto Rico, I heard.
um but it's like you know and i'm
not i swear this is not meant to
be a brag but when i saw the
movie us in theaters i did at a
certain point like halfway through predict
the final twist but it was less of
a oh i'm so look at me kind
of thing i i saw then it was
more like a oh my god that would
be too perfect i'm gonna be mad if
they don't
that happen.
And I feel like they're the best,
because they're just the most natural
thing to come about.
Honestly, now that I think about it,
I put breadcrumbs about where the story
was going.
I'm not necessarily saying I was putting
up a neon light,
but I put breadcrumbs in maybe the fourth
or fifth page about the final page.
I like that, because I missed them.
I missed them.
I'm going to have to go back now.
it's,
it'll be tough to reference without
spoiler or anything like that, but yeah,
no, no.
I can go back and look at it
though.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But no, I was going to say,
it's one of those like Bruce Willis,
you know, we, we, we, he's like, Oh,
I asked the kid said, Oh,
I see dead people.
I'm like,
I bet Bruce Willis is dead in this
movie.
Yeah.
I completely called the ending.
It was a miracle of which one miracle.
Okay.
one about the us and then yeah yeah
no yeah no no no i see where
you're going with this you're with me on
this okay cool history that's fine they
they they defeat the russians in the end
at the the nineteen eighty lake placid
olympics it's fine don't worry about it um
fantastic movie though oh really good
movie and people dunk on it it's a
very good movie um very good most people
i know like that movie yeah dunking on
it
nostalgic, people who don't have souls,
people who want to be contrarian,
and I know so many of them.
But yeah, the whole idea of like,
you know, putting in breadcrumbs,
putting in hints,
I think a lot of it is more
so than that kind of mechanical element of
storytelling.
It's also just about how you think about
the role of a writer and a storyteller
and how they relate to the audience.
Like a twist that is expected is
probably a good thing because for some
fraction of the audience, it wasn't.
And for some fraction,
it was something that they could see
coming a mile away because they
intuitively understand the way that you
tell stories.
And that's great.
And I always think that the resolutions
should feel earned,
like what you see on the page should
feel like something that makes sense,
that the inertia of the world
is leading to,
and that's a product of like the
characters development.
And that's, I mean,
that's certainly something we see with
both Ashley and Geordie is those
characters develop over the course of the
story and the way that the story ends.
Um,
I don't know that if I asked anybody
to write down after reading page one,
what is page look like that they would
get it.
Cause that's not the point, right?
The point is if you can imagine how
these characters develop and you watch
that development,
you could reasonably predict how they
would interact with the world as it is
when they find it on page twenty four
you know um so the same thing is
with how i draw it like you see
you know characters bodies stiffen you see
their um like the stoicism or the horror
on their face as they go through the
world and and that is how you show
that people are growing developing
reacting to the world around them yeah i
like it and it's already
Go ahead.
I'm sorry Michael now go ahead what I
was up going like kind of thing about
with like a whole like core is the
most unpredictable of the like,
you know if Somebody were to give me
I don't want to list names because you
know I love a lot of these movies
if somebody give me like a very kind
of typical action movie
You know, I mean,
sometimes just looking at the DVD,
I might be able to give you a
vague outline of what's going to happen.
Very often the trailers are basically the
whole movie condensed into like two and a
half minutes.
Yeah.
But I do feel like comics can very
often be more unpredictable to a certain
extent.
Maybe it's because, like,
they're going for a more targeted
audience, less for everyone.
But I think for truly horror, it's...
Sometimes, yes.
And ironically, like, Scream is, like,
made its whole franchise based off of,
like, certain tropes and, like, you know,
how predictable it can be.
But I feel like there are others that,
you know, really is just, like...
there are moments and it's like where the
hell is this thing going you know and
i love those moments so much now scream
is one of the first movies i can
remember where they tell you they walk you
through the tropes as you get to them
in the movie and i and i enjoyed
the first one it was after like number
three i was just like are we are
we done here can i go home now
I haven't watched them after that.
It's nothing against them.
I don't have free time.
I personally...
With what was going on behind the scenes
of the camera and...
Neve Campbell.
The money should have been paid.
I have issues with the sixth one.
If I just look at the sixth one
in terms of story,
I really love that one personally.
I think that that's a good example of
shaking up a franchise with the new
setting and stuff.
If you haven't seen it,
I would at least give it a shot.
Eventually, I'll get around to them again.
I've heard the latest one is not so
good.
But let's jump in and talk about the
Kickstarter that is launching tomorrow,
I believe.
Spot on.
How has been the pre-launch and getting
ready for this to go live tomorrow?
I know everybody wants to get the
pre-launch and the backers built in
already.
And how has that been going for you
on this project?
It's been going good.
I've been, of course,
letting people know about it on social
media, everything.
I have a fantastic blurb from Scott
Snyder,
which I've put up all over my socials.
And so, yeah,
this is the first Kickstarter I've ever
run.
But as far as I can tell,
it's going very well.
Jack,
are you in on the Kickstarter as well,
or are you letting Michael do all the
work?
Letting Michael do all the work.
I'm kidding.
Like a real artist right there,
let the writer do the work.
Show up, you draw for a long time,
and then you check out when you can.
You've definitely put your share in the
work.
No, I mean, frankly,
that is the toughest thing.
I think about that a lot with writers.
They have to do the difficult part of
like conceiving an idea writing it and
then finding an artist who's going to
follow through with it and then hound them
like not that that's michael but like
that's just that's the experience i think
a lot of the time is art is
slow art is fastidious and picky and like
artists get to say look at how difficult
it is to make my art which it's
it is i mean art is not easy
but the other side of it is like
as a writer and especially someone who's
trying to put together their first and a
kickstarter in general like
The amount of work that goes into
self-marketing, self-promoting,
finding places to talk about your work,
finding people like you to chat about them
with who are gonna be interesting and ask
good questions and all of that stuff is
really challenging.
There's not a lot to go around.
Man, it's seriously tough.
I've been a part of Kickstarters.
I have a book that I've done with
a friend of mine where it's part one
of three and the amount of work that
goes into that Kickstarter as well as this
one, it is substantial.
And so making comics...
as an independent person trying to recruit
from Kickstarter.
Like I said,
this was my last book and it,
you know,
it funded and all that good stuff.
If you don't think that the art or
the story is good enough to fund for
this, I get it.
Like, and that's not a dig.
I think this is a really good book.
I'm really proud of the work that's in
there, but like not for everybody,
there's going to be somebody who's like
only wants sunshine and rainbows stories.
And that's just not what this one is.
Yeah.
But find one that is find a book
that is because whoever that story is
written by,
that person put in a ton of work
and behind the scenes to put together a
Kickstarter,
put together interesting tiers,
talk about their work, you know,
shamelessly self-promote all day,
every day for weeks ahead of time.
And then the month of it feels stressed.
Is that not worth five, ten bucks?
That's spot on.
You do all this work,
you put together the Kickstarter,
and then hopefully you have a good artist
behind you who's also like, hey,
check this out, check this out.
constantly bumping it with a new way of
phrasing the same thing like please take a
look at our kickstarter we try yeah it's
a joint effort right and i know i'm
in on this too like as soon as
it comes across instagram or wherever it
is i'm i'm sharing it i'm adding it
to my story and i'm doing all those
things too like i always tell people like
you it takes a army to raise a
to raise a child or whatever but it's
the same way with the indie comics it
takes a group effort to really
push these out.
You got your friends in on it,
your parents, your moms, your uncles,
your cousins, your artist's family,
the podcaster's family.
We're all like, hey, check this book out.
Support this book.
Buy this book.
It feels so great.
Sorry to cut in,
but it feels so great where it's like
people who I have not expected who've been
so encouraging and excited um like you
know um you know I was like these
people who I'm in touch with but I
you know I've just been surprised about
how encouraging they are uh with like this
uh Kickstarter with the comic with the
feedback you know all that stuff so yeah
you're right it really does take like a
group to really get these things into the
world
And it's daily.
It's not just, oh, I did my part.
It's like, no,
what did you do today though?
Or what did you do this morning at
lunchtime and this afternoon and before
you went to bed?
Did you do your multiple posts?
Yeah.
And did you do it on all the
platforms too because people are
fragmented and in different places?
Yeah.
yeah trust me i got all of them
and it's like i think i got everything
but tick tock and that's possibly on the
list next dude you got you gotta get
on there you're gonna blow up i can
just tell it i just know that when
you get on there i mean what if
that was your audience what what if that's
what if that's the last gateway who knows
like it's just one of those where it's
like
Do I really want to do this?
Cause it would just be for like the
short clips, you know,
just like they go to YouTube,
they go to Instagram.
I might, you know,
I might as well get a tick talk
and just chunk them on there too.
And, and just see, you know,
be nice to make some money off of
this.
Yeah.
I mean,
that's a quote on the tombstone of every
comics artist.
It's just the comic artists.
It's us podcasters who support the comic
artists too.
I think we're all our epitaphs.
I wish I could make some money off
of this.
Tip your servers, tip your podcasters,
tip your writers.
Exactly.
I know there's tiers and stuff.
I don't know if you were going to
ask about this at all.
We've got some cool tiers.
I mean,
if you want to see stuff that I've
personally written and drawn myself,
there's like a package with a couple
different shorts that I've done.
There's like
I think I put twenty pages of one-page
comics that I made, all written by me.
Another story that I worked on with a
friend of mine that is this throwback
pastiche of old X-Men stuff with a
heartwarming... Oh, we lost him.
Through this joke?
Yeah, we lost Jack.
I think this is the point in the
movie where he falls off the door and
he just kind of slowly...
I can definitely speak for them myself.
Yeah, they're lots of fun.
And it's a great tier.
Yeah,
you get a bunch of extra stuff with
that tier.
One that you also get feedback from me.
Obviously, I write comics,
but I also have written a bunch of
short stories.
So you can sign up to get feedback
from me on your own creative writing.
And of course,
the tier that I think is the most
interesting is you give us a topic,
and Jack and I do a custom-made one-page
comic just for you.
That's actually kind of cool.
I've never seen anybody do that one before
either.
It was Jack's idea.
I think it's a fantastic idea.
Now I've seen characters be drawn,
like you'd be drawn into the comic book,
but I've never seen it to where, like,
oh, if you pay us,
we'll do you a quick one-page comic.
But that's kind of cool.
Definitely unique.
Yeah, I think George R. R.
Martin did one, and this was for charity,
where whoever raised the most money
kill them off in the next book or
something.
I do remember when he did that.
You get your own one-page comic based on
the topic of your choosing.
It can be UFOs, it can be weddings,
it can be funerals, cats, if you want.
Why not all of them at once?
All of them.
He managed to swim up from the icy
depths and re-ground before he joined
Rose.
He's good.
Looks like he switched to mobile.
Sure did.
He's back from the icy depths.
Now I'm in portrait mode,
so if anybody wants to see what I'd
look like vertical, this is it.
Did Rose pull you back up out of
the icy waters?
Oh, man.
It's been a while since I heard that
joke.
That's good.
That's a really... She did...
No, I love it.
I'm not even dunking on you for that.
That's a very good joke.
No, something grows with you.
Yeah.
I was saying something hopefully horribly
interesting about having cool comics
available.
Did we say that?
You did say that and then Michael filled
in to where one of the tiers is
y'all will write them a one-page comic
about whatever they want you...
My favorite one?
Yeah.
I did that with a previous book and...
you get, I don't know,
a handful of backers who like your art
or want to hear a story about whatever.
And it's,
It's one of those things where you're
like,
am I going to spend a little bit
of extra money for a one page custom
comic?
Like if you think about,
I'm going to do an art fair in
a couple of weeks here.
Original art itself,
just to be the owner of it or
the commissioner of it is expensive.
And if you think of where we're pricing
this for writing multiple panels and it's
custom to your design to spend what you
would spend,
which I think is like a hundred bucks
on it is really affordable.
So anyway, just something to keep in mind.
His video is froze,
but we can at least hear him.
Oh, there he's back.
He's back.
You're still here.
No,
it's a really cool tier because I've never
seen that done before.
I've seen where you can be drawn into
the comic book or killed in the comic
book.
I've seen that many, many times.
But to be offered up like, hey,
we will do a one-page comic for you,
that's really cool and unique.
Something that, again,
I have not seen in all my Kickstarters
I have discussed here.
And that's a lot.
One of the stretch goals we have,
which I'm really excited about,
is an author-artist commentary,
where you get the script from us,
but we do the commentary on different
decisions we made,
a little bit of backstory behind certain
scenes, that kind of thing.
And maybe I'll include some references to
those six endings that didn't quite make
the final cut.
That could be good or bad.
Or you get the feedback like,
what the hell were you thinking?
How many IPAs did you have this day?
Zero, I can guarantee you.
That was for Jack.
Oh, I appreciated it, yeah.
I can put a little wheat beer tracker
on the bottom of there for the ones
that were consumed along the way as we're
making this book.
But I know a lot of prep goes
in to doing this,
but what would you say has been the
biggest challenge leading up to the launch
day tomorrow morning?
And that's for both of you.
I know it's a lot of hard work
on both of y'all.
I think a lot of it is...
Kickstarter, I mean,
my experience with it is that it's fairly
user-friendly,
but it was also learning a whole new
skill where it's just like, you know,
being a creator,
obviously you need to learn the skill of
creating.
And all that really... I'm being legit.
I'm not being sarcastic.
The fun stuff of creating stories.
But then there is also learning promotion
and that you don't want to be annoying,
but also you want to promote your stuff.
You also got to be annoying to be
able to promote your stuff.
And so it's...
I think for me, it was just like,
okay,
I'm going to have to be like stepping
forward and creating like this Kickstarter
page and like studying other Kickstarter
pages and all that stuff.
Like there's no real one thing in that
that was particularly interesting.
Difficult,
but it was just sort of this
conglomeration.
Oh And it was honestly for over a
month kind of just the first thing I
did in the morning where I just woke
up and went straight at that cuz And
then after a while,
it's just kind of became more natural and
more like hey,
I'm actually having fun I actually did at
the end of the day have fun creating
the Kickstarter page But there's just
seemed like a lot and it was just
one step at a time.
I
Yeah, and I can tell you,
as a supporter of many Kickstarters,
if I land on a Kickstarter page that
caught my attention and then when I get
to the page, I'm like...
what happened here,
I immediately just leave it.
I'm like, okay,
I'm not going to decipher what you're
doing here.
I see you've misspelled like a lot of
stuff.
I see you repeat yourself three,
four or five times over the course of,
you know,
you only get so much space on a,
on a Kickstarter page.
And like,
Take the extra time to build this page
because you can save it and nobody will
ever see it until you're ready for them
to see it.
So just take that time and put it
together properly.
Make it look good.
Have somebody else look at it.
you know like hey honey come here and
look at this and let me know what
you think and then she goes hey by
the way you misspelled that word five
times you know yeah just catch those
things when i see stuff like that it's
um it's less like you know okay you
misspelled that word we all make typos but
yeah no you didn't get anyone else to
read this over kind of thing yeah um
you know and honestly um i think if
i did have to say one thing with
creating this uh the page that was the
hardest for me was the um trailer which
we we got a great trailer um the
guy who i hired to make the tree
he did a fantastic job um by taking
all of this information things that i
would say and condensing it into something
that was very tight
I mean, I've done stuff like that before.
I've written for other stories,
had to sum it up in one or
two sentences, but you know, I mean,
I can't say it never gets a little
easier,
but it's never easy if that makes sense.
Yeah, no, it makes sense to me,
but I also kind of just do that.
I spend a lot of time on Kickstarter
and doing this kind of stuff.
So for me, it's kind of like,
I have immediately started noticing things
as I'm going through it.
I will shoot the creator an email like,
hey, I noticed when your kit started,
there was this, this, and this.
I'm like, what is that?
I consider it a constructive thing.
I'm not doing it out of being a
meanie or anything like that or trying to
be an ass.
It's just like, hey, if
I don't know if you noticed this,
but you might want to check this.
Yeah.
And if you do it early on enough
in the campaign,
you're probably doing them a favor.
If it's something like that.
No,
I always appreciate like when I request
materials and stuff like that, like,
and they say, go,
just go ahead and send it to me.
That way I can like, at least,
you know, hit the notify me on launch.
That way I know when it launches.
they also let me see it beforehand that
way i can go through and just read
what's coming up and read the details the
finer print of things and but yeah but
So we've already talked about the rewards,
the variants, and some of the extras.
Is it just going to be a cover
A, cover B type of deal,
or did you reach out to some other
artists and be like, hey,
can you do a cover for this book?
We've got one cover for it.
Actually, one –
tier that wasn't mentioned is that Jack
made a really fantastic poster.
Oh, cool.
So you can definitely also get that.
But it's a total of nine tiers and
three stretch goals.
And so,
and a lot of the different tiers,
there's like, you know,
obviously digital comic, physical comic,
and then it goes on with like the
more bigger ones where you get some Jack's
comics as well.
I like it.
I really do.
And Jack, what are your thoughts on that?
Yeah, I mean,
you see a lot of that with Kickstarters.
And I think part of it is you
want to give people opportunities
engage with it as much or as little
as they want.
If what you truly want is just to
read that thing on whatever screen you
can, awesome, let's go.
Let's get that comic in your hands.
I think part of this too is with
two comics creators who have either the
experience or the wherewithal to give
advice like Mike has offered with some of
the feedback or share commentary and share
thought on the process for people that
might be newer and learning.
I think part of it is an awareness
of where we're at in our practice,
our craft.
I will not
suggest at all that either of us are
these incredibly well-established comics
creators or anything like that however
i've made like five hundred pages of
comics in my life and a lot of
that gives me some insight that i'm always
happy to share about the work that i'm
doing and share more of what we like
to do with people that are willing to
back at that level and um that's one
thing that you know with all the different
tiers that are available it makes sense i
think some of these newer comics creators
that are out there it totally makes sense
if they're like
I've got two tiers because what I can
do is I can make a physical and
I can make a digital,
and this might be my first comic I've
ever made.
And that comic deserves to get printed.
Like I want to hear those stories.
Those are really cool.
Um, but one thing when you see, yeah,
when you see all those different options,
it's, it's, um, evidence,
not just of our confidence in the work
that we're putting out,
but also like our willingness to engage
and support and,
and be there for people that want to
support us as well.
Like if you want a poster that I
think is pretty cool,
that is a little bit of a different
style, um,
let's go.
Like,
like you can back at that level or
you really like what we're doing.
You're like,
I don't want you to do any more
horror.
I want you to tell me a goofy
one page story about something.
Let's do that too.
Like let's,
let's figure out ways to make that happen.
So I'm all for it.
I love doing those comics where there's
more variety in those tiers as well,
because it shows you what people want to
see.
And there's nothing more fun in comics
than having a conversation with people,
like figuring out what they're interested
in and figuring out what they like about
what you do.
That's absolutely why I love doing this
because I get to talk to different
creators, different perspectives,
different lessons learned in life along
the way.
And I always tell people in the beginning,
I'm like, you're getting your feet wet.
Keep simple.
And then as you get some dirt under
your fingernails,
some calluses on your hands, yeah,
then start offering up those other tiers.
But in the beginning,
just get that first one made and then
you can come back and do more.
And this is just sort of like a,
I've, you know,
and I'm not trying to like bash anyone
else's whatever,
but I've definitely seen some Kickstarter
campaigns where they have so much stuff.
And I'm like, dude,
I just want your comic.
Like, you know,
that they just like kind of added like
so many bells and whistles.
So, you know,
there is something to be said for just
like, you know, straightforward, like,
yeah,
you can get a bunch of extra cool
stuff from us, but it's right there.
All you're looking for is a really fun
comic.
Yeah, no.
And again,
sometimes it's just best to keep it
simple.
So I got asked though,
as a first time Kickstarter, what is like,
what does success look like for you on
this campaign?
I mean, outside of the obvious of, yes,
I want to get the book made,
you know?
So yeah, outside of the obvious, like,
you know, get, you know, we make,
However much money,
we hit all our stretch goals.
I think that success would be that this
goes to a bunch of people who have
never met me and who I don't know,
who just either they...
see it on social media they see the
something that one of my friends or you
know other complete strangers um shared
and they trust in the campaign and what
they see enough to go ahead and buy
a comic and i think to have like
a bunch of people do that that would
really be what feels like success to me
Yeah.
And I've seen people who have,
and they have told me like their first
campaign failed,
but the lessons they got from that
campaign and subsequent campaigns more
than made up that fell in that one
was just the fuel they needed to add
onto the fire to keep pressing forward and
then followed it up and got that same
book that didn't get funded,
funded on the very next go around.
So yeah,
W's and L's here, you know,
but it always feels good to take that
dub on the first one, right?
Yeah, like, you know,
definitely pushing for this thing.
Yeah, no.
I'll still learn some lessons,
even if we're successful.
No, I think, yeah, I mean,
you're going to learn something new,
as I feel like we all should do
every day is learn something new.
But no, a hundred percent.
Yeah.
So let's talk a little bit about the
look ahead.
Just any comments and just looking ahead
on things.
What have you learned?
So this is your very first comic book.
What have you learned from creating this
project that you'll carry over into future
work?
Outside of the obvious of picking and
choosing the proper artist in the
beginning.
Yeah.
You know, the...
i i putting in the contract um no
ai uh as far as illustrator goes that's
the big lesson i learned um because before
jack i did hire a different illustrator
and we were very close to that finish
line and then i found out um that
they were using ai and i had to
disconnect
everything from them.
I had to take all of the promotion
I put with their illustrations off social
media.
That was not a fun couple of hours.
Dude,
and you put them so many different places.
If you're like me, mine go everywhere.
I try to scrub as best as I
can.
Obviously, there's never like a, you know,
but I try to make it as clear
as possible like what happened and why I'm
no longer with that illustration.
So going forward.
Because you're going to have to tarnish
the person.
and you don't want to do that yeah
but and by pulling stuff people kind of
already know yeah um the the individual
pled ignorance as far as you know but
yeah of course um but the yeah so
i then got smart and was like hey
i got a great illustrator on patch's
rebellion um and so i reached out to
jack and i did the smart move and
reached out to jack and um
um he made a fantastic book but yeah
that is one of my big um lessons
is like in every contract um i do
with um illustrators i do like have a
no ai stipulation and they all get it
um i'm working on uh another short with
a uh different illustrator and he said oh
no dude i absolutely appreciate yeah
you're having me sign that um kind of
thing so yeah
We were talking about this before we went
live.
I have now included stipulations in my own
draft emails.
It's just a generic email that goes out
to all creators.
I'm doing my very best to not use
AI in creating thumbnails anymore.
however you know that that's on the person
right if they send me stuff that i
can use to promote and to build stuff
then i don't have to you know resort
to using ai because i don't want to
use that going forward however i am
keeping that option in my back pocket
because it's a thumbnail and i don't
consider a thumbnail a piece of art i'm
just selling this like the episode to
people
And that's the hard part on my end
is I have to market and push this
out to people.
But yeah,
I'm definitely doing my best to not go
that route anymore.
But again, and people are like, oh,
Gen AI.
I've never used Gen AI.
I don't even know what Gen AI is.
I use a different program,
so I don't know what it uses.
It's just an easy program that lets me
do things.
And I mean, with comics,
they are themselves, I mean, works of art.
And art is supposed to be communication
from people.
I mean, obviously,
there's more to it than that.
But it's like,
I don't want something that's
you know, that's in my hand.
I mean, a story that I'm reading,
getting emotionally invested in.
I want that from another person.
A hundred percent.
Yeah.
I mean, honestly,
this is a whole other conversation,
but like, yeah,
like this is sort of like people are
starting to get less interested in not
everyone,
but a lot more people getting less
interested in stories,
whether it be movies or comics or books
in general,
they're clearly made by committee.
They really,
this is this director's vision,
this writer's vision,
this artist's vision, as opposed to like,
things that are clearly like this is made
in a boardroom and they were like, yeah,
we're stocks, what kind of thing?
I mean,
and we've seen that over the last couple
of years, right.
With so many small indie movies having
such huge success.
I mean, we got YouTubers out here making,
you know,
how much that movie made like a few
hundred million dollars on a thirty
thousand dollar budget or something like
Obsession of Back Rooms both the Star Wars
yeah and I've only seen Obsession of those
two movies I've only seen Obsession I'll
check out Mandalorian when it's on Disney
Plus or whatever but you know it's like
yeah but I saw the trailer I love
Star Wars like Star Wars is my jam
however I'm not a people like
public like too many people in a small
crowded space i just ever since covet i
don't gotcha don't like it like i don't
mind being in public i'm going to a
concert in october so i mean i can
tolerate it in small bunches but i don't
know something about the close proximity
of
being in a movie theater on opening night
where it's shoulder to shoulder and people
are nasty to begin with.
They don't cover their mouths.
They don't wash their hands.
You know, it just like,
I don't know if that's that person is
sitting next to me.
So it's kind of hard for me to
want to go to those places.
And I hate that.
I used to be a very sociable person
and love going out, but yeah,
I just can't do it opening night.
I'll do a Saturday morning as soon as
the movie theater opens up and then go
see a movie.
Yeah, I... See,
definitely social anxiety has shot up for
me with COVID.
But honestly, going to the movies, like,
in some ways, like,
That they kind of became more special
experiences to me.
It's a certain extent.
I just remember seeing and then if that's
why I Have such an attachment to screen
sex because that was one of the first
movies Well,
the first movie I saw back in theaters
was no way home and I think I'll
never be able to like Objectively judge
that movie just because yeah in the
theater was like meant so much to me
I just like whatever like
I loved it no matter what kind of
thing, you know?
Yeah.
I think during COVID when movie theaters
started written out,
like where you can rent the entire like
theater,
like entire like room for a party to
watch a particular movie that you wanted
to watch.
And I think,
I took my daughter and a group of
her friends to see one of the Demon
Hunter arcs.
Demon Hunter movie arcs.
That movie just now, I love that movie.
I've never had seen Demon Hunter up until
that point.
Demon Slayer.
My bad.
Demon Slayer.
She heard me.
And now I know what you're talking about.
Okay.
Yeah.
So now I just have this affinity for
that one movie, even though I've, I mean,
I've started watching the anime since.
Yeah.
But I just like that,
that movie and during COVID is kind of
like, kind of like,
made it work for me.
Yeah.
Well, I had a very good friend who,
or I have.
He's one of my best friends.
He's a huge fan of Back to the
Future.
And he was very immunocompromised,
so he's not
going out at all.
He basically did that.
He rented the theater just for himself to
watch Back to the Future.
I remember him talking about it and being
like, should I do it?
I forgot what the amount was.
Dude, just do it.
You can afford that.
The universe owes you at this point.
You have that fantastic experience.
I think that's really cool.
It's also one of those where
especially in that situation if you can
afford to do it and give yourself that
one thing yeah i can do it you
know the only thing stopping you from
doing that is yourself yeah but um it
got to the point where like i probably
would have paid for half of it if
you needed it like you know yeah it's
like i just want you to have this
experience
No, and hey, dude,
that's a great friend right there.
That's those friends you keep around.
So we're sitting here,
we're discussing this,
but if this campaign is a huge success,
and I know you're already working on a
story,
but does everything kind of clicking into
place for you,
does that draw more comment books from you
later down the road?
Um, well, I mean,
I've already written a five issue series,
um,
that now that one's completely unrelated
to, to this one.
This one's a huge success and people are
asking for more.
I will definitely get like,
as much as this is a one shot,
it's beginning, middle and end.
Um,
Will definitely I do have like some ideas
bounce around my head as far as like,
you know What else can I do with
these characters as far as what I have
right now?
I do have that short that's currently
being illustrated and I do have a five
issue scripts and so I am You know
in talks as far as like getting that
created right at this point.
Yeah.
Nice.
Nice.
I
so the kickstarter launches tomorrow this
is your opportunity to speak directly to
potential buyers what would what should
readers support why should readers support
the secret lives of demon hunters
Well, first of all,
I have to give Jack a ton of
credit.
He worked very hard on this,
and it shows.
The illustrations are excellent,
both with the ones that are set in
more normal scenes and also with all the
really cool stuff that happens to the
demons with it.
If I can say this about my own
writing,
this is a story that definitely has horror
in it,
but it's also a story with heart.
I think of myself like,
and that's one thing that does connect a
lot of my writing is that you do
have some grisly dark stuff happening,
but there's also a lot of heart and
humor in it as well.
And I think that that this is a
comic that will appeal for people who are
looking for that kind of thing,
you know who want to see the Heart
and emotion bounce off of the demon action
as well.
Yeah
And you don't get both of those together
often or often enough, I should say.
Yeah.
So it's good when you get to see
them all together,
like kind of come together into one good
story.
And I will say it is a damn
good story.
Thank you.
It's different.
It's unique.
It was very fun to read.
So yeah, anybody out there,
the links to everything are down in the
description, whether it's the websites,
their social medias,
the Kickstarter pre-launch.
Go hit that Kickstarter pre-launch.
Click the button to notify me of launch.
That way you know first thing in the
morning because you're doing an eight AM
launch or a twelve.
It will be more late morning.
It will be...
I'm aiming for eleven thirty.
Okay.
Are you doing a full month or a
two week?
Oh, this is a full month.
Okay.
Yeah.
Going all in.
Full month.
I'm telling you,
the last two weeks are going to be
like gut-wrenching.
looking forward to my birthdays right in
there so yeah you're going to see a
lot of action in the first two weeks
and then you're going to see it do
this and then it's going to like do
that again like i thought every time i
talked to people they're like dude the
last two weeks it was like good richard
yeah so but michael appreciate you coming
through jack as well i know he had
to drop off but thank you both for
joining us tonight on the us actually
before i do that
I want to kick it to you one
more time so you can tell everybody where
they can find you.
Well, first of all,
you can find me on
michaelbarronauthor.com.
And if you enjoyed what I was talking
about and the kind of stuff I'm putting
out, definitely sign up for my newsletter.
If you are an aspiring creator,
it's just a once-a-month newsletter.
I am not going to fill up your
inbox, I promise.
But what I do is I do...
Kind of very I call them dialogue with
my muse where it's like funny little
dialogues between me and The muses like in
my head and I kind of get across
like lessons in how to tell stories like
that It's I find it more fun and
funny and creative than just doing here is
an essay Why you show don't tell kind
of thing?
And so it's like they're kind of fun
little short stories.
I also list a few different literary
agents every month a few literary agent
and Comic publisher that's like open as
well.
So if you're interested in that definitely
sign up.
Yeah,
I'm also on blue sky and I'm Michael
Baron author on Instagram.
I
There you have it.
And all that's down in the description
below this.
So make sure you click those links.
Go check them out.
Make a new friend.
Stop in.
Say hi.
Support the Kickstarter.
And now with that,
I'll roll into my outro.
Michael, Jack,
thank you both for joining us tonight on
the USDN Podcast.
Be sure to check out The Secret Lives
of Demon Hunter's own Kickstarter and
follow both creators online to stay up to
date with the campaign and future
projects.
If you enjoyed tonight's conversation,
make sure to like, follow, and share.
Subscribe and join the Council of Nerds
for more conversations with the writers,
artists, publishers,
and creators shaping the future of
independent comics ladies and gentlemen
the council of nerds is now adjourned this
has been the usdm podcast where indie
comics come to life y'all be safe out
there take care