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From Here Forward shares stories and ideas about amazing things UBC and its alumni are doing around the world. It covers people and places, truths, science, art, and accomplishments with the view that sharing better inspires better. Join hosts Carol Eugene Park and Jeevan Sangha, both UBC grads, in exploring solutions for the negative stuff out there — focussing on the good for a change, from here forward.
[00:00:00] Carol: Hello, friendly alumni. Welcome back to From Here Forward, an award-Winning UBC Podcast Network podcast. I'm Carol.
[00:00:08] Jeevan: And I'm Jeevan. This month we sat down with Kamal Al-Solaylee an award-winning journalist, author, and director of the UBC School of Journalism, Writing and Media. He has a very wide spanning career. From working as a theater critic to editing for the Globe and Mail, and 14 years as a professor at the Toronto Metropolitan University School of Journalism.
[00:00:27] Carol: as a current journalist for Jeevan, we got to ask him some big questions facing the industry today. We covered AI and media, the rise of citizen journalism and diversity in media.
[00:00:38] Jeevan: We also chatted about how the UBC School of Journalism is tackling these conversations with new generations of journalists who are coming into a very intimidating era of the industry.
[00:00:48] Carol: There was no shortage of topics for us to nerd out on. So, let's just dive in.
[00:00:53] Who are you and what brings you here?
[00:00:56] Kamal: My name is Kamal Al-Solaylee. I am a professor and a director of the School of Journalism Writing and Media. I came to UBC after 14 years at Ryerson University, what is now called Toronto Metropolitan University in the school of journalism. And I'm also an author of three books of nonfiction and I'm still a working journalist to some extent. That's who I am.
[00:01:17] Jeevan: Amazing. Thank you so much. And so, we're going to start off with a super light chill question. What role should the media play in a healthy democracy?
[00:01:28] Kamal: I think the thing that I will emphasize here would be rigorously reported and verified information that helps audiences understand their world better.
[00:01:39] Don't use the word readers anymore, because even a print media could have, video and an audio component. I think responsible media should provide context analysis. Also, accountability on both ends. So, it should hold those empower accountable, but it should also be accountable to its audience.
[00:01:59] How did you gather that information? What's your evidence for that information? So, the space between journalists and politicians sometimes can be very narrow.
[00:02:07] there is traditional media emphasizes access, access to power, access to politicians, access to those who are decision makers, and, and that comes potentially with some. Let's just say dicey or gray matters, like what do you have to do in exchange for that access?
[00:02:27] So media should also be accountable to its audience of, of how it gathered this, its information, what made it into reporting, and is there anything that didn't make it into its, reporting or just context or analysis in general.
[00:02:41] Carol: So, on that note, a lot of. The discourse online in recent years has been free press that free press this, and we have a definition of what free press is, but it seems like we've kind of lost the plot of the real definition, especially when people on certain sides of the political spectrum don't like criticisms that reporters are providing. So I guess as a director or as a working journalist, could you just lay out what free press is and how it has perhaps changed in the last few years in terms of definition or, or the public's perception of what it is and what it should be.
[00:03:20] Kamal: Right. Well, I mean, the most classic definition of free press is the one where journalists work freely without undue pressure from within the organization or from outside the organization because self-censorship is a real problem in contemporary journalism. The idea that you are not beholden to anything but. A truth or a version of the truth, verifiable facts. And, and I'm the first one to say these are all. romantic ideas that started in the early 20th century.
[00:03:56] I put objectivity in that ballpark. These are all sort of manmade, and I do mean that manmade concepts that have lingered and they have lingered sometimes for a very good reason because they actually have for the most part, have worked in the interest of both journalists and their audiences,
[00:04:14] But I think free press comes with huge responsibilities and the increasing, I mean, I think it's something that I'm sure we're going to get into later, but the increasing reliance on advertising. It's always been, of course there's always been advertising, but there's always been complimented by, by other sources of income.
[00:04:38] For example, for the classic local newspaper, relied heavily on classified ads. People who are willing to buy and sell things, local trade and subscription was always a driver of revenue. And advertising always has been part of the financial model. But the current model has more or less eliminated the idea of classified ads or sort of local merchants and businesses individuals having a stake in the sort of commercial success of their, of the publication by placing ads or even, you know, personal ads. and over the years subscription, the value proposition of subscription has not survived. and information has become so abundant that the idea of subscribing to one source. of your information, whether that's your local newspaper, sounds so archaic to me even now. But, most tragically, almost damagingly advertising has become a life blood for the industry. and unfortunately, because of that, there is this separation, that used to be a separation between editorial and advertising.
[00:05:52] There was an editor and a publisher, and their job was their liaison between journalists and that side of the business. But now, the fact that money is so scarce sometimes makes news organizations act in a way that, I guess, their own best interest by kind of mixing between advertising and content. I'll give you an example. I, I recently saw, I'm not going to mention the network, like a two-and-a-half-minute segment on YouTube from a Canadian network and it has the, the check mark and everything. And it, and I watched it goes, oh, that's interesting. And after two and a half minutes I realized it's an infomercial. That's what it is. It's not a news item passing off an advertorial as content.
[00:06:40] Jeevan: I'm curious about what happens when a free press is compromised and what are the ramifications on how we, as societies process information and process what's happening around us if we don't have access to a free press?
[00:06:54] Kamal: I mean, I'm going to have to sort of answer this looking at city reporting in particular because Most of us live in, most Canadians live in cities and the, the bigger cities. tend to be the lifeline of the economy,
[00:07:06] something that I've noticed increasingly is that there's a rising class of what we might even call oligarchs. Or people who control the message or have vested interest in controlling the message. And when a press is not free, it's not the stories that get into the press that you should look. But the ones that never make it into our newsrooms, what has been suppressed, what has been kept out of debate.
[00:07:37] And coming originally from Toronto, before I moved to Vancouver, I see how issues around real estate development, are not tackled with the seriousness. Housing issues are not tackled with the seriousness that it deserved. And largely because big real estate developers are big advertisers.
[00:08:00] and I'm not saying that's, that happens consciously, but on a very subconscious level, the editorial policy begins to reflect the interest of the power elite.
[00:08:11] Carol: gosh, this might be where you pull out this, the journalist and director label here.
[00:08:16] Kamal: Well trained Carol, well trained,
[00:08:19] Carol: so, the last five years-ish has been very, you know. There's been a lot of turmoil happening in the world and especially young people who have, are less loyal to traditional mainstream newsrooms are now seeking news in else in different ways.
[00:08:36] And specifically we're seeing people in Gaza, in Ukraine who are using Instagram as a way to report stories. But having been trained in a traditional J school setting conversations of what is a journalist. What's a student journalist? Is citizen journalism real? Is that activism or those media personalities?
[00:08:59] So I guess I'm just curious, like how we label people who are telling the public stories that are being suppressed by traditional newsrooms,
[00:09:11] Kamal: Well, the first thing I'll, still call them journalists. I do believe that what the work that they're doing is, comparable or as important as, as significant as uses the same tools of, reporting verification data.
[00:09:25] Testing of hypothesis and all the things that we do that traditional journalists do. I think traditional media understands that it no longer has the attention of the population that it once had you talk to my generation or even an older generation and the 10 o'clock news was a big thing.
[00:09:47] You know, Peter Mansbridge on CBC news at 10 o'clock, that's a big thing. This is how I got, you know, before I go to bed, I'm going to get my information. and then you get up in the morning, and you read, you know, the Vancouver Sun or the Toronto Star or the Globe and Mail.
[00:10:01] I mean I live in a world where a lot of people still do that, but I obviously don't see any evidence of that among my students. There are two things. There's bypassing. Like totally bypassing traditional news outlets in favor of social media or TikTok
[00:10:18] But to some extent, there may still be some issues around credibility and, for example, when I started, okay, I'm going to say it. I have an interest in fashion journalism. I've always had, and then there was this idea that influencers are going to challenge that model of fashion journalism because they're independent and unlike a lot of the traditional fashion magazines there's no kickback system between the big designers or fashion houses, whatever. But the more I watch influencers, the more I see that you are not that different from the traditional publication. You're still, you know, you call it sponsored content, but you are, you just sold me 15 minutes of a video of YouTube that in which all the items came from one brand. so, all I'm saying is that at the same time that I am totally supportive and putting back my hat as a director, in the school. Recognize that we can't prepare generations for jobs that do not necessarily exist anymore, or ways of gathering news and information that, are to some extent, archaic or going to be dying out in less than a generation.
[00:11:33] Again, the question will always be, what is the financial model for all of this? Can you self sustain? Do you have to hustle endlessly? And if so, what is the difference between that and a stressful newsroom environment? I don't believe that traditional media has a monopoly on news, and sometimes they act as if they do, but the fact that you have your, like other generational but also cultural, it has alienated large groups of people.
[00:12:04] You know, I'm talking people of color, immigrants, newcomers, who are often discussed in those platforms as a problem that needs to be solved. like in my circle of friends who include a number of people of color and immigrants, and They're not interested in a media that sees them constantly as a problem. almost 50 or 51% of the population in Toronto is born elsewhere or identifies as racialized, and you never see that reflected in Toronto media.
[00:12:34] Carol: This is so off tangent, but when you said fashion journalism, I was like, my body was like soft news director of JWAM, like soft news.
[00:12:43] Kamal: I like soft news.
[00:12:44] Carol: I have so much trauma from hard news.
[00:12:46] Why weren't you there?
[00:12:47] Kamal: because I was in, I was in Toronto.
[00:12:49] Carol: Why would you do that to me, all we had was like how to use the phone to do a live Instagram reel. Like why didn't I get that?
[00:12:57] Kamal: I come from Arts and Culture.
[00:12:59] I was a theater critic for most of my career, so I come from soft news to be perfectly honest. Although through my books, became much more interested in politics and race, but that was quite a transition for me.
[00:13:11] Jeevan: I'm a culture journalist, so I'm right there with you.
[00:13:12] Carol: I was in the wrong class.
[00:13:13] Kamal: There you go.
[00:13:14] Jeevan: I'm curious about kind of going back to what you were talking about in terms of trust building with traditional media and kind of that fracture of trust, for a lot of marginalized folks, do you foresee a pathway for traditional media to repair that relationship?
[00:13:29] Kamal: I mean, honestly, don't think that mainstream media is necessarily invested in, in bringing in some of the more marginalized voices. I don't necessarily just mean racialized, but also mean young, working class, disabled people who have been systematically sort of excluded from being considered the mainstream.
[00:13:51] they will say the right thing. They always do. we seek a diverse newsroom, and we are stronger for our diversity. But the thing about a lot of mainstream media is that it's self perpetuating. there is a desire to kind of just keep the system that works so well and that sometimes could be just laziness because like why take chances.
[00:14:13] What I have noticed is that mainstream media has picked up a lot of the, let's just say, working patterns of the freelancers. So, in the past when you used to offer someone a job with, with certain kind of permanence and benefits and salary, a lot of mainstream media now rely on contract work.
[00:14:34] It's not unlike Uber or, other food delivery models are that there are a lot of contractors who are working 12, six months contract, three months contract. And this way it's a cost; it's a cost cutting measure to one thing. 'Cause you don't have to pay them benefits.
[00:14:51] they're cheaper to hire. If there isn't the demand that you thought, you can just get rid of them, easy enough to pay them severance. So, if anything mainstream media is picking up the gig economy models of freelancers and it can be mutually beneficial.
[00:15:08] I know a number of my students who say, you know what, I don't want to work at the CBC full-time, but I'll do a six months gig here, a six months gig there, while I work on my novel, or whatever, and that's a mutually beneficial agreement.
[00:15:21] But at the heart of that agreement, unfortunately, is lack of continuity. there's no institutional memory building up in the newsroom necessarily, or that institutional memory is limited to the old generation that the baby boomers, like myself and Gen Xers, who got in when the government was good and stayed in these jobs.
[00:15:44] Jeevan: you know, Carol and I are both people who resonate a lot with some of the experiences you're referring to as folks who have been both full-time in journalism and freelance in journalism over the course of our careers.
[00:15:56] I, I'm really curious about what those conversations with students look like as you're. Engaging with them about the business, about the kind of tough realities. I remember at my last fellowship that I did, I chatted with journalists who felt very conflicted when giving advice to up and coming journalists who are looking to try and find opportunity and find, frankly, hope, particularly young, racialized journalists or marginalized journalists.
[00:16:25] To see a career that feels long and fulfilling, but also, you know. That feels aligned and has a sense of integrity. So, what, what are, what comes up in those conversations with students and how, I guess, does UBCJ school approach those conversations?
[00:16:41] Kamal: This is definitely a director's hat question.
[00:16:43] Okay. The first thing I want to say is, this is not exclusive to journalism. I wonder what conversations are happening in theater. In film, in graphic design, in fashion,
[00:16:55] so this is not a, exclusively journalism question. I think I would say that the conversation we're having with our students is a very realistic one.
[00:17:06] And we no longer tell them that this program will only qualify you to become a journalist, and we are also witnessing something from our applications that students are coming to us. But they don't necessarily want to work as journalists. They want to explore the world of media at large.
[00:17:21] They may want to be content creators. They may want to be influencers that may want to work in industries that are journalism adjacent, like public relations or communication I think any journalism school that still promises a student like a regular job with nine to five with pension and benefits is misleading.
[00:17:41] Its pool of applicants, to be honest. I mean, they're highly competitive. and they're not necessarily what they want. I have a colleague who always talks about, you know, a lot of newsrooms are known for their toxic work environment. Why would you want to go there?
[00:17:57] Like, why would you subject yourself to that? But also, the language that traditional newsrooms speak. It's alien to your generation and the generations coming behind you, that it's no longer aspirational to be the Parliament Hill reporter. I mean, I've been teaching journalism for almost 20 years now 18 years ago.
[00:18:17] That was the job. Everyone was competing to be the Ottawa Bureau correspondent, or in Ontario, the Queens Park or here in Victoria. but these jobs do not hold the same appeal, and I can only speak for my school for the kind of applications that we get.
[00:18:34] We're also an international school. At the moment, our student population is virtually 50 50 domestic and international. And one thing that I, when people ask me questions about, oh, why are you, like, what are you doing teaching journalism to this generation? I say, context matters because a lot of our students come from context in which journalism still matter.
[00:18:55] And journalism is, could make a difference between life and death, whether it's China or India, Latin America, and were. The public still relies on sometimes print, sometimes radio, like I come from the Middle East originally, and where I come from. Yemen, this country has been, bombed to oblivion by various forces.
[00:19:17] The radio is a lifeline for my family. I mean, WhatsApp messaging is too, but the radio is something, 'cause there's a high level of illiteracy and the local newspapers still like, there's still, newspaper boys selling it in the morning and people buying it on their way to work.
[00:19:35] All these things could make the difference between life and death, and this is why I love journalism. This is why I always believe in journalism and just because we are, we are here in the west, we're going through this moment with lack of trust in media, rising authoritarianism and anti-media in general does not mean that the principles behind well informed public journalism are not valid and will continue to be valid for a very long time.
[00:20:03] Carol: Oh gosh, yeah. It's, it's gr here. I mean, I am just saying that 'cause I've been laid off like a million times from local newsroom, so I'm like over it. I mean something that has always irked me when people are interacting with.
[00:20:16] However they're getting their news sources, especially here in very privileged spaces, is like, this is propaganda. Just because they don't like something, or this is disinformation, it seems like a lot of people don't even know what that means. I mean, this is a course in itself, but how would someone who is interested in being critical of what they see online, you know, understand that what they're looking at or what they're reading is true propaganda or true disinformation, instead of just being like, this is something that I just don't agree with, and therefore it must be incorrect.
[00:20:50] Kamal: Well, I'm going to answer this question by saying that in and of itself propaganda is not the evil that everybody thinks it is. I actually think this information is because this information is a willful, misleading, and misrepresentation of information with the purpose of deceiving or getting people to believe something that, that those who are authoring this information know not to be true.
[00:21:21] Whereas propaganda, and I'm not advocating for propaganda, but you know, a lot of political campaigning is propaganda. Is just seeing a set of beliefs that you have about, your party or your system of belief. If you are communist or pro-communist, that you extol the virtues of communism and equal distribution of, of, you know, resources and, and production tools, whatever that may be a propaganda, but it's not necessarily untrue. And if you are an ambassador of capitalism and you believe that it's the best system for you lifting up people and creating a better future. And you constantly talk about how capitalism, is the best economic system that would be in my mind, propaganda. Now part of propaganda is also excluding other points of view or not making room, like you're taking up so much space that other points of view are definitely marginalized or erased.
[00:22:24] So I am, when people talk propaganda and disinformation and misinformation, just getting the facts wrong or. I would say just kind of analyze what each means and understand the shades of difference and obviously information being,
[00:22:39] What we seek, what do we want? Information, what do we want when we want it, so I'm kind of with propaganda. I understand the negative connotations, but I take and many other, scholars or people who work in media kind of also understand that at times, for example, at times of great stress, like for, I'll give you one example.
[00:23:00] The elbows up metaphor that, or expression that Mark Carney used at, at sort of leading up to his election and trade war with Trump. Could be construed as propaganda. Putting Canada and putting Canada in a kind of fighting mode. it was very effective. as you know, because he was elected.
[00:23:21] It was very effective in galvanizing people's emotion and something, you know, something that propaganda do really well.
[00:23:30] Jeevan: I know this is also another question that could be, an entire course, but. I think amongst the journalism world, there's a lot of us who engage with a lot of different outlets in our day-to-day reading things as critically as we can, finding our own voice and constantly cultivating it again and again.
[00:23:45] And I think it's fair to say that not everyone has an interest in doing that, or not everyone knows where to begin. And so, I'm curious about what your thoughts on, on how. We, and maybe this is a very personalized thing, like how can we encourage greater media literacy as we engage with news in so many different formats in a way that's maybe, you know, for folks who are from a different generation, having had to juggle so many different platforms and ways to receive journalism.
[00:24:13] How do we begin to start those conversations and what are some of the key tools that we should be encouraging?
[00:24:18] Kamal: Wow. You two have such tough questions. Okay. Well, I mean media literacy, you mentioned media literacy and that really should begin in like grade one or two or something.
[00:24:27] I can't emphasize how important media literacy, and it just never, it never stops. You see the lack of media literacy and the lack of sophistication in all the scam stories that you hear. People are being scammed out of life savings because they just don't have the critical ability to say this is too good to be true. This doesn't sound very believable.
[00:24:49] So the stakes are very high right now. this digital universe that has offered through ai, for example, has now unleashed a world of possibilities for you know, for knowledge, but also for scamming, for disinformation. you can create an entirely fake video putting the Prime Minister, that's very convincing saying something. and it just never stops.
[00:25:12] And to me, I'm going to take off my director's hat, strong public broadcasting is an essential to a good functioning democracy. Studies show over and over again that arm's length, that's an important qualifier here, arms length public broadcasting in countries serve as a bulwark against disinformation, against divisive rhetoric. This rhetoric is increasingly violent, leads to not just individual violence, but violence against groups and a public broadcast that does not bow to the whim of advertising and commercial needs, has a mandate to inform the public, particularly for local news. And you've hinted at it in your question is that, you know, community-based information and a sharing of information, and I think universities should do, a better job of, breaking away from the ivory towers and coming down to the community and sharing knowledge, whether it's political science or sociology or the I school here. They need to, we need to invest more in our communities, help our communities decide for itself what is reliable information, what isn't when they're being manipulated.
[00:26:23] I want to go back to the idea of emotional engagement because I feel that it's a train that is left the station a long time ago, and it's just hurtling towards us. But there's a rising phenomenon of authoritarianism. in previously democratic countries, well, just today with, you know, President Trump was talking to the United Nation and telling Europe to close these borders 'cause immigrants are destroying your countries. What a simple message, a very effective message. it gets to that emotional thing. It's a, them and us. There's an enemy that's trying to erase our identity and change our histories and whenever there is an economic crisis or there is a financial strain, I said it before I said it again, scarcity is the enemy of equity. Those things go out the window, and it becomes them and us, and this is why authoritarian regimes have been really effective at controlling the message.
[00:27:22] Carol: Okay. I'm just being mindful of our time, so I'm going to ask you probably the toughest question,
[00:27:27] Kamal: tougher than the ones you asked so far?
[00:27:29] Carol: Yeah, which newspaper do you trust the most?
[00:27:31] Kamal: The Guardian.
[00:27:32] Carol: Oh, he actually answered.
[00:27:34] Kamal: the Guardian.
[00:27:35] Jeevan: Wow. Tell us why.
[00:27:37] Kamal: it's a foundation. It's not based on advertising. It has a social, that is, is values align with mine and, it has all the appearances of a traditional newsroom because it's a podcast video.
[00:27:52] Online and digital. But it's not controlled by either advertising or shareholders. you look at the ownership of a number of North American newspapers, you know, Washington Post is Jeff Bezos, the Wall Street. Journal is, I think it's Robert Murdoch and ownership is vital.
[00:28:12] I do subscribe to the New York Times as well, and I do have a lot of trust and faith in the New York Times, but I also think, It's adherence to both siding sometimes and it's adherence to, what we started talking about, like this sort of manmade goals of objectivity can sometimes be grating.
[00:28:31] Carol: I just didn't think that you would make such a strong statement.
[00:28:34] Kamal: I know the funding model of The Guardian really well, the foundation and I wish that could be replicated. 'Cause that's that really. Frees you up from having to suck up to big money and big tech all the time.
[00:28:47] Carol: Did you have anything you wanted to add that we didn't get to?
[00:28:50] We tend to go off script from what comms and marketing people do.
[00:28:55] Jeevan: We're staying present in the interview.
[00:28:57] Kamal: Both are very excellent journalists, I have to say.
[00:28:59] Jeevan: we're keeping in the part where the director of JWAM said we're excellent journalists, by the way.
[00:29:03] Kamal: please, please. No, it was fun.
[00:29:05] Jeevan: thank you so much for joining us.
[00:29:07]
[00:29:07] Kamal: Thank you so much, Jeevan and Carol. That was brilliant.
[00:29:10] Carol: Despite the scary topic, it was very fun chatting with Kamal.
[00:29:13] Jeevan: There was so much that came outta that conversation. it was fun to nerd out on journalism. I think one of the things I always find interesting is talking about the business model of journalism, because I think there are a lot of people, I mean even within the industry, but outside of the industry who maybe don't know how it works in relation with advertising, with funders and then like just journalistic integrity and free press. I think it's an interesting time to be a journalist and it's an interesting time to like navigate building a career that feels right. So, a lot of that was really interesting to hear.
[00:29:45] Carol: Yeah, I mean the citizen journalism conversation was really interesting. That is something that I feel like many people in J School struggle with. Is this really journalism? Is it social media influencing? How do we define? So, hearing the director talk about it was really great. Other than that, what a lovely human, like he was just so nice and down to earth.
[00:30:07] Jeevan: And also, a fellow soft news enjoyer. As a culture critic, I, I couldn't be happier to be amongst my own,
[00:30:14] Carol: which, for the director to say that I was just like, wow, things have really come full circle. No things have changed in the industry. 'Cause I feel like before it was all like hard news, hard news. I wish you had been there when I was there, so I wasn’t crying all the time.
[00:30:26] Jeevan: On that note….
[00:30:31] Carol: Thanks everyone for listening.
[00:30:32] Make sure you catch our next episode by subscribing or following our show on Spotify, apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you're feeling your feels, please drop us a review. You can find me on Blue Sky at Carol Eugene Park,
[00:30:43] Jeevan: and me on Twitter at Jeevan K. Sangha. From Here Forward is an alumni UBC podcast produced by Podium podcast company.