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What is the best supplement for me? What potency is right? What does the research show? Is it worth the money? These and all of your other supplement questions are answered here. Jared St. Clair brings well researched information so that you can make more informed decisions regarding your health, specifically focused on how to effectively use natural supplements to optimize your health and Vitality. Of course supplement and food choices aren't the only factors in optimal health. Jared also shares a regular series of Emotional Vitality episodes that will help you release the negativity that may be holding you back and embrace your full potential. Vitality Radio is not JUST about health, it is about HEALTH FREEDOM. Jared provides needed insight into the current threats to your health as well as the threats coming from government agencies, pharmaceutical companies and modern medicine as a whole. With over 35 years of experience in the natural products world, and a hearty dose of wit and sarcasm, Vitality Radio isn't just educational but entertaining and enlightening.
Hakala full show transcript
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[00:00:00] Welcome to the Vitality Radio podcast, your source for the truth about health, wellness, and real alternatives to drugs. Surgeries and the status quo of healthcare. Here, you'll find information that empowers you to take control of your health, but it's not just about health and wellness. It's about the politics of healthcare and protecting your health freedom.
Now, here's your host. Jared St. Clair. Hello and welcome to Vitality Radio. I'm your host each and every week. My name is Jared St. Clair, and I've got an interesting conversation for you today. Uh, interesting because the gentleman that I'm about to introduce you to is brand new to me. I just discovered who he was just a couple of months ago.
Uh, due to a [00:01:00] little bit of research, actually a lot of research that, uh, one of my, uh, team members at Vitality had been doing on the topic of boron. Now if you've heard of Boron and that's about as much as you know, then I would say that probably puts you in the same boat as most everybody else listening to this show.
Uh, most people I think probably have at least heard of it. Maybe they've seen it in their multivitamin. Uh, maybe you know that it's a mineral. Maybe you know a little bit more about it than that, but I anticipate that at the end of this conversation you're gonna learn a lot that you never knew before and have a, uh, renewed interest in this really interesting and vital mineral.
So that's what we'll be talking about today, is the mineral boron. We will also discuss. What Boron does in the human body. There are a bunch of different areas of research, but we're gonna touch on a few. In particular, we'll talk about the most well-known benefit of boron, which is bone health and bone density to help with the prevention and reversal of [00:02:00] osteoporosis.
We'll also talk about prostate enlargement and high PSA levels. We'll talk about, um, Mental or, or I should say, uh, brain health cognitive functions specifically and how boron might play a role there, which was very interesting to me cuz up until this interview I did not know that that was part of the boron story and we'll talk about of other, a few other things as well.
So a lot to discuss here. It is all based on a single mineral boron, but my goodness, how powerful this mineral just may be in your life. That's what we'll talk about with. My guest today, but first I have to tell you that there's a little bit of ranting in me today. I feel like I must break out the rant music because this is driving me crazy.
I.[00:03:00]
In a world full of often confusing messages about health, let Jared be your guide through the smoke screens of corporate greed, media bias, government ineptitude, and. Propaganda. When you see what is really happening, you'll be ranting too. It's time to expose the hidden agendas. It's time for the truth.
It's time for the vital rant. All right, so I just got a letter dated June 19th, 2023. So just yesterday. And I'm gonna read it verbatim, uh, at least, uh, the opening of the letter cuz I want you to understand exactly what I'm seeing from my shoes. As a natural supplement retailer, this is from now Foods a, uh, well-known vitamin brand in the industry, and a brand that we carry, uh, some of their products at Vitality Nutrition now.[00:04:00]
Counterfeit Alert, alert, uh, June 19th, 2023. Now was first informed on June 15th, 2023 that another fraudulent seller on Amazon was selling 13 different counterfeit now brand products. A consumer contacted now to report that our vitamin E was not, or was being sold as a white, dry, small capsule. Uh, in reality, it is a large, soft gel liquid capsule.
The counterfeit products were sold on Amazon by Arkansas Trading Emporium. We think that this seller started selling these counterfeit products sometime in June of 2023. They said now immediately notified Amazon's c Amazon's counterfeit crimes department, which guaranteed all inventory from the seller on June 16th.
Quarantined, sorry, not guaranteed. Uh, we expect to again be working with the Department of Homeland Security and Amazon to pursue these criminals. Below is a list of products that are [00:05:00] counterfeit from the seller only. There are 13 products, L Carnitine, five htp, vitamin E, MK seven Super Omega 360 9. Liver Refresh, 8 billion acidophilus, Suzy Ultimate Digest, beta Glucan, quercetin, and Broma Lane Mood support and saw Palmetto 320 milligram.
Now this is a really interesting thing because it was just April of this year that now, uh, had to. Tell Amazon that Amazon was selling or that people on Amazon were selling counterfeit products from their brand. And if you do a simple Google search, counterfeit supplements on Amazon, you'll find there's a little bit of history of this because back in 2019 there was a head headline.
July 19th, 2019 on in Wired Magazine, Amazon warns customers those supplements might be fake. And they were specifically talking about a line of supplements made by a company called Align. [00:06:00] And of course we know now, uh, both in April and Ju and June of this year have had issues with it. On top of that, we have, uh, an article from Whole Foods Magazine.
I. From, let's see, April 26th of this year, which is just a couple weeks after now, experienced this that Fungi Perfecti, otherwise known as Host Defense, had a bunch of counterfeit products being sold. My community Stats, seven Lions, Maine and Turkey Tail capsules. Now, these are just a few, but there are many, and when I say counterfeit products, it's important to understand what's happening is these.
Companies that are selling on Amazon. This is not Amazon themself, but as you know, if you go on Amazon, you can buy from any number of millions of different sellers on Amazon. And this company, um, or these companies that are doing this, they're taking bottles of. [00:07:00] Uh, how do I describe it? They're basically making their own product.
Who knows? In their basement, in the garage, whatever. They're putting somebody else's label on the product. So far, it appears they're using rice flour as the powder that they're putting into the capsules. So they're encapsulating a bunch of, uh, rice flour, putting it in bottles and producing labels on label printers that, uh, look like the real thing.
And then marketing them as if they are the real thing. Taking full advantage of a percentage of the consumer base that doesn't know the difference between a vitamin E capsule and a vitamin C capsule or whatever it might be, which could be just about anybody because I. Lion's, Maine is a perfect example from host defense.
Host Defense is a great brand. They make great products. Um, lions, Maine in a capsule, looks kinda like rice flour in a capsule, does now stam at seven. My community tar Turkey [00:08:00] tail. Those would all have a more brownish color and if you're familiar with that, with the mushrooms, you might not, uh, you might recognize that a white capsule isn't the thing, but some of these manufacturers are doing more than just rice flour.
So, And in some cases we don't know what they're putting in because they haven't been caught yet. This is the point I get asked all the time, is the stuff on Amazon any good? Well, the problem is it depends on which stuff you're referring to because if it's actually a product from Stammits, uh, company, um, host defense, if it's actually a now brand product, um, then yeah, it's the same stuff we might sell at Vitality Nutrition or on vitality nutrition.com.
What appears to be a much, much bigger problem is the fact that it might not even be what you think it is. This is happening more and more, and it's not just happening in the supplement industry, but it's especially concerning to me because, well, a, I'm in the supplement [00:09:00] industry. And B, because these are things that we're not just putting on.
It's not a counterfeit Nike T-shirt. It's a counterfeit supplement that you're actually putting into your body. And if it's rice flour and you don't have a rice allergy, then I guess no harm done. But you're certainly not get getting the benefit that you paid for. And, uh, who knows what else could be in the supplements.
We know in the drug world that, uh, Illicit drugs are being laced with fentanyl and that's killing people. I don't anticipate that there are any players in the Amazon world that are that, um, dirty, that they're trying to kill you. I think these counterfeiters are frankly trying to get you to buy a product, not just once, but multiple times, hoping that you'll believe that what you're getting is what they tell you you're getting and maybe they're just hoping you buy it once and, uh, they scoot along.
We know that in the case [00:10:00] of host defense, it wasn't just one seller. There's actually a list of about 20, uh, in this article that were all caught selling this stuff. Are they all owned by the same people? We don't know. It's kind of tough to track this kind of stuff down. Uh, some of the addresses that now has found are actually completely bogus addresses, like they exist, but they're empty buildings, that sort of thing.
So it's a problem, and I guess just, this is just a warning. Uh, as someone who sells legitimate products in this industry, who wants people to get legitimate results from these products, and who offers a 100% satisfaction guarantee on anything that you buy from me, I don't want you buying fake stuff, uh, and expecting real results.
But I especially don't want you buying fake stuff and potentially harming yourself. [00:11:00] So how do you know? That's the hard part. If you don't recognize the brand, not the brand, but the seller, if it's, you know, puby, L L C Summit, unity, Houston Warehouses, Jiffy Deal Store, lazy Youngs, prestige kitchenware, or any number of oddball brands like that that you can't tie to an actual company, you know, I guess the best thing you can do is don't buy from them.
Do not buy from them. If the price seems uncharacteristically low, then yeah, they might be scamming you because rice flour is pretty cheap to manufacture and put into a capsule. So word to the wise, know who you're buying from. Even if you're not buying from me, know who you are buying from. Make sure that you're getting legitimate product.
And of course, I would love for that to be from me, but if it's not from me, [00:12:00] I believe the best place you can buy is from another local, independent family business. Let's keep those small and reputable businesses alive. Amazon doesn't need your money anyway. And they certainly don't need your money for counterfeit products.
Okay, so that's all I had to say as far as the rant. And now we're gonna jump into this interview. I am so excited to bring you this information on Boron and my interview with Charles h hla. You're gonna love it, uh, if you have questions about anything. That you've heard on, uh, this episode or any previous episode of Vitality Radio, you can call us at (801) 292-6662.
That's 8 0 1 2 9 2 66 62, or you can jump on our website, vitality nutrition.com and ask questions in our chat feature there. All right. Without further ado though, I'm gonna go ahead and jump right into this interview. I've got a gentleman here. His name [00:13:00] is Charles hla. Uh, I hope I'm pronouncing that right, Charles, did I get that right?
Yes. Okay. I should have asked you before Charles hla and, uh, he is the, um, Owner at Hocker Research Laboratory in Glenrock, uh, Wyoming, uh, laboratory Supervisor research and development, uh, nutritional supplement production supervisor. He wears a few hats up there, but started out, uh, at, uh, the University of Wyoming School of Pharmacy in Laramie, uh, back in 1969.
Uh, he was then a pharmacist at. Pay less drug in Klamath Falls, Oregon, uh, pharmaceutical sales representative for Eli Lilian Company, uh, back in, through se from 79 to 83. And then, uh, staff pharmacist in Lakewood, Colorado. And then owner and chief pharmacist of the compounding pharmacy specializing in highly absorbable hormone tablets, nutritional supplement research and development.
Uh, starting, uh, that in 1985. And then, uh, now as, as I [00:14:00] said, Presently, uh, is at Hocker Research Laboratory in Glenrock, Wyoming. So the first question I have for you is a little bit about your journey. Uh, Charles, you've, uh, you started out obviously in pharmacy school. Uh, it looks like you ended up doing, uh, being a pharmacist for a few years, and then took a job as a, a sales rep for Eli Lilly.
Uh, what was that like going from pharmacy to actually, uh, representing a pharmaceutical company? Uh, it was an interesting transition. At that time, Lilly was hiring prominently pharmacists to rep for their company. And I think the most important thing it, it gave me was how to interact with physicians and find out what their needs are.
And so when I left that company and started practicing pharmacy, it seemed natural. To interact with physicians. So that's where I started out when I went to work for Wise Pharmacy and they sold their business to me and I just continued with that. And as it, I [00:15:00] was in with the physicians, I found there were a lot of needs that were not being fulfilled by commercial manufacturers.
There were especially niche items that were simply not available, and I endeavored to provide. You know what was needed in that specific market. I tended to gravitate towards OB, G Y N, endocrinology because a lot of the physicians that I worked with happened to be endocrinologists, so that seemed like a natural fit.
Hmm. Interesting. Okay. And so there's a couple of questions about that. When you, well, first off, you ended up in compounding, uh, becoming a compounding pharmacist. Uh, for people that aren't familiar with that term, what's the difference between someone who is a compounding pharmacist and someone who's, I, I guess a traditional pharmacist?
Uh, traditional pharmacy, you use products that are pre-manufactured. By a company with compounding, you take raw ingredients and put [00:16:00] them together in a form that's usable by the patient. And so you're actually making the product from individual ingredients, making the finished product in the pharmacy?
That's correct. Okay. And you specifically, um, said that you, you, you focused on specializing in highly absorbable hormone tablets and then also mentioned nutritional supplements. I've always found it an interesting thing as a guy who owns a health food store and runs a health food store for a living.
You know, we have pharmacies all around and pharmacies are an interesting sort of, uh, combination of, uh, nowadays, especially as supplements have really caught on more, uh, of sort of a. Partial supplement store and partial drug store. Uh, and then of course with all kinds of other things, um, you were doing hormones, which of course would have to be prescribed.
But then also you said nutritional supplements. Were you compounding nutritional supplements back then as well? Yes. Um, it was an interesting mix because the ob gyn [00:17:00] physicians that I interacted with also had an interest in nutritional supplements. So if a, a formulation was not available. They would ask that I would make it.
For instance, the boron tablets that we make were available, health food store wise, three milligrams. The docs I worked with wanted a higher strength, so we would formulate that. Um, they wanted highly available. Chromium for example. So we would put together a formulation, uh, chelate that was absorbable. So it was there again, fulfilling needs that physicians perceived for their patients.
Well that's really interesting to me cuz we're talking back in, uh, you were doing that, I guess starting in around 85. Is that right? Uh, That's correct. Okay. And that's pretty early. So my, my parents started my health food store, uh, that I own now in 1977. So, you know, sort of in the same, uh, timeframe. And, and I remember, uh, going back to when I was a child, how.
Uh, [00:18:00] limited our shelves were in terms of availability of all kinds of things that we have now that we didn't have then. Mm-hmm. And I remember when Chromium first came out on the market as a supplement, and, uh, we didn't know what it was or what it did. There were a few studies that had come out and, and that was, uh, all of a sudden a, a big, um, A, a, a, a very popular item, uh, amongst people with blood sugar issues and things like that.
And so I've seen a lot of things come and go, but one thing that is sort of fascinating about what you just said is that you had doctors specifically, uh, asking for sub supplements for deficiencies in their patients. And I don't hear a lot of that nowadays. Doctors actually looking at supplement deficiencies other than mostly vitamin D is the one that I.
Typically hear about. Sure. Sometimes magnesium. Uh, were these, uh, regular MDs or were you working with people that were more naturopathic in nature or what was that story? Um, more naturopathic. Okay. Medicine type physicians. And, you know, I found it very [00:19:00] unusual to work with endocrinologists that were also interested in natural medicine.
That's what unfortunately, you know, I found one guy, uh, guy Abraham who ob g y endocrinologist. Formerly with UCLA that formed his own company, highly specialized in nutritional supplements, and that's really where I gained most of my knowledge and hands-on experience. So, With specialty formulations that are requested by doctors.
Okay, interesting. So that you've taken a very interesting path, uh, to where you're at today. So then let's talk about boron. Uh, you know, you jumped into that talking about the three milligram, which is pretty much the standard that's on most, uh, store shelves that you can buy. Uh, why was that perceived to be too low by the people you were working with back then?
Um, primarily Dr. Abraham and Dr. George Fletches were the, the drivers behind my [00:20:00] interest in boron, and they started out with three milligrams, and Dr. Fletches in particular was looking for something to help bone. That would not be commercially available. And, uh, he started out with three milligram, would give three milligram look at bone densities and gradually moved up and he, you know, finally came on to the 30 milligram and found that 30 milligram three times a day, gave great results.
Subsequently, he started giving 75 milligram twice a day for patients that had more. Uh, bone problems. And so at one 50 was his maximum dose that he, he started using. Very interesting. And so what's your, you've clearly been immersed in this for a long time now. What's your impression as to why three milligrams was the starting dose and is essentially, in most cases, stayed the [00:21:00] dose?
Why haven't, uh, uh, brands been making higher potency? Borons? Why? Why has it not been recommended at higher potencies outside of this more niche group of doctors? Right. That's a good question. You know, the, the doctors that I worked with, trial and error, you know, they just found that three milligram was not adequate for what their patients needed and would go to six 12, and then finally settled on the, the 30 milligram as the most used strength.
So it was just trial and error, and you mentioned 30 milligrams three times a day. That was for people with pretty significant bone loss issues, but 30 milligrams once a day is what they were using for most people. Uh, 30 milligram once a day is maintenance therapy. Okay. Uh, it seems to be good, but I, you know, eventually Dr.
Fletcher ended up the 30 milligram three times a day for the first couple of months to get adequate blood levels built up, and then he would back off according to response. Now, is there a recommended [00:22:00] daily allowance for boron right now? Uh, yeah. The, the recommended safe level, if you'll look on the, the.
R d a sites is 20 milligram. They say that's the safe level. Uh, not to go above it, but further, if you look at the safety profile of boron and what is considered toxic and non-toxic by FDA standards, anything that is above is, that has a. Uh, r d a or a safe level above two grams per kilogram is considered safe.
Two 2000 milligrams per kilogram of body weight. Right. Okay. Right. The, the safe level or the LD 50 for boron is 3.4 grams per kilogram of body weight. So, so it is way beyond. Being [00:23:00] considered safe. And that would be considered safe on a daily basis. Yeah. At those higher doses. Yeah. That's, that's kind of crazy.
So for, let's, let's go back a little bit and talk about what boron actually is. Where does it come from? Uh, and, and how does it, why do we need it in our bodies, I guess is probably the best way to ask that. Yeah. Uh, born is a natural occurring element found in the Earth's crust and why we need it. It has a lot to do with bone integrity.
It has been found to support mental clarity. Uh, and I guess the biggest thing that was found in a study about five or six years ago is that there's an actual transport mechanism to transport mech, to transport boron out of the gut into the blood. So if the body has a transport mechanism, it recognizes as a is necessary.
For, uh, good health. Okay. [00:24:00] So if it's found in the Earth's crust, it's a mineral, um, why can't we get enough of it in food? Or why do you think we're not getting enough of it and it might need to be supplemented? Sure. It's similar to other minerals that are starting to get depleted out of the Earth's soil.
Uh, as farming goes on, the mineral level goes down. And so how long do you think this has been a problem, uh, with people? Cuz you're talking about, uh, these doctors that you were working with back in the mid eighties, uh, recommending these, what are considered very high doses of boron. Uh mm-hmm. Is, is that because of nutrient depletion in the soil, in your opinion?
I believe so. Okay. And, and how long it's been going on? I do not know. Probably, you know, it's a, a gradual thing that maybe sneaks up on you over time. Yeah. Interesting. So then with boron, uh, with the LD 50 being as high as you said [00:25:00] it was, I think you said 3.75 grams per kilogram, is that right? 3.4. 3.4 grams.
So, and it's similar to table salt. Okay. So, so you can take a lot of it and, and frankly, you're not gonna take too much. In any reasonable, uh, dosage that you might consider, it sounds like. So how would, it would be very difficult. How would someone know, cuz you've mentioned b you know, bone issues, uh, you know, osteoporosis, osteopenia, that type of thing.
And when I was first, um, introduced to Boron, I think it was. Probably in the eighties, maybe early nineties, but I bet it was the eighties. Going back and sort of thinking through this, when we first started seeing boron show up on, on shelves, uh, in our health food store and, and what we weren't, what we were seeing then, is it as an.
Added element in, uh, bone health products, calcium and magnesium supplements and things like that. And in almost every case it was three milligrams of boron and whatever the dose, the recommended dose was per day. [00:26:00] And at that time anyway, the only in information I had on it, and of course this is even, you know, pre-internet days, uh, was that it was good for the bones.
And three milligrams was the dose. And I guess that's just sort of the dogma that's stuck, uh, to a large degree. And uh, uh, interestingly, as I've been digging around and. I may have to have you back on the show talking about copper down the road. Cause I've, I actually, before looking into boron, I was digging into copper and, and you know, what the safe doses of copper are and how copper interacts with other things.
And as we talked prior to hitting record, the interactions between all of these minerals are pretty complex and, uh, and, and a little tough to wrap your head around in some cases. But as I was listening to a couple of podcasts, specifically on boron, just over the last couple of months, I became, I. I don't know.
I'm almost embarrassed to say it because I should know this by now, but sort of fascinated with all of the different things that it impacts in the body. But as we recognize with [00:27:00] magnesium, which I've talked about ad nauseum on this show, um, it plays a role in hundreds of different. Functions inside the body.
And I shouldn't be surprised that boron would be similar in that way because, uh, most every element that the body requires plays a role in all kinds of different places. So what else do people need to know about boron outside of what it can do for bones? Uh, and and why else would someone potentially consider using it as a supplement?
Um, also for mental function, there's some pretty good data that shows increased brain power with boron. Um, And those studies are three to six milligrams a day. Oh. So those are actually fairly small to do that. Okay. Um, we have some physicians that use boron with prostate enlargement or when PSA levels are rising, borons and anti-inflammatory activity will decrease PSA levels in some instances.
And it's fairly consistent at what [00:28:00] doses are are used in that case. It depends on how fast the PSA is going up. Okay. You know, for instance, if somebody is fairly stable at a level of maybe three or four, and all of a sudden they spike at seven or eight, the docs will use 30 milligrams three times a day for a month and retest.
And then adjust from there. And oftentimes, I guess that higher dose would be short term, and then the maintenance dose would be more of the 30 like you talked about before. That's what it seems like. Yes. Okay. All right. Interesting. And you, you, your company, uh, you're compounding a, a. 30 milligram and a 75 milligram boron.
Um, correct. The 75 of course would be that 75 milligrams twice a day and the 30, you know, up to three times a day it sounds like is what's recommended. Um, are there reasons other than bone loss, uh, that you'd wanna get all the way up to that 150 milligram dose? Uh, Not that I know of. Okay, so that would be the primary thing.
Yeah, that's pretty much specific and it, [00:29:00] we like to encourage people that do the 75 milligram to definitely work with their physician to follow bone density. Just to make sure that it's doing what it's supposed to be on. Okay. And of course, boron doesn't act alone with the bones. Uh, one of the big fallacies I think that we've, uh, been kinda led to believe, uh, in, in media over the years is that calcium is, you know, the.
Element for the bones. And, uh, we recognize now very much that calcium doesn't act alone. That it is a piece of the puzzle, but not the whole puzzle. Uh, in your opinion, in your experience working with these people with bone loss issues, through these doctors that you've worked with, uh, what, what type of, um, recommendations are they making with things other than boron for, for bone density issues?
Uh, magnesium and they're using two to 600 milligrams a day. Okay. And you know, with magnesium, I think you have to be really careful with taking too much. The [00:30:00] body can only absorb so much over a given period of time. Mm-hmm. So the docs we work with tend to give 200 milligrams two or three times a day to reach the 600 milligram level.
Uh, so they don't, uh, expel the excess. Gotcha. Okay. And, uh, what are your feelings on the other things that are, uh, commonly used for, for bone health? Uh, calcium as a supplement, for instance, uh, we'll start there. Generally, calcium, you know, I know the recommendation is one to five grams a day. Um, probably you can get by with what you get in your diet provided you're using magnesium.
I'm not a, a big fan of calcium supplementation. Uh, that, that's interesting. I've, as I stated before we started, I have no idea how you're gonna answer any of these questions. I haven't, uh, I haven't, uh, conversed with you before, and so some of these are, I'm, I'm, uh, very. Curious, you know, well, all of 'em, I'm very curious what your answer's gonna be, but I've [00:31:00] felt like that for years about calcium, that we, in fact, I've read quite a few places that, uh, we may even be in what would be considered kind of a calcium toxic society because it's fortified in so many different places that frankly it's just pretty easy to get with without actually supplementing it.
There seemed to be some issues with supplementing too much of it for sure. Yes, I agree. All right. Okay. So then, and, and what are your thoughts on vitamin D and Vitamin K2 and their role, uh, in association with, uh, the magnesium and the boron for bone health? I think D and K2 would also work well. In that Ormond area.
Yeah, I'm a, a fan of D and K two. Okay. All right. And so let's talk about mental health. That is really intriguing to me. Uh, it's a really common concern, uh, nowadays. Uh, we have, you know, uh, skyrocketing, uh, issues with Alzheimer's and dementia. I just had Dr. Dale Breen, who wrote the book, the End of Alzheimer's, on the podcast, uh, talking about the, what he's doing to help people.
In those, uh, situations [00:32:00] and as a preventative, but interestingly enough, the topic of boron has yet to come up. Uh, so I'm curious, when you said mental health, uh, how does boron work in the brain as far as we know of the research that's been done? Are you talking about things like depression and anxiety?
Are we talking about more preventative, uh, issues with cognitive function in the brain, or some combination of the both of the two, uh, preventative measures of cognitive function? So that's the primary benefit that you're aware of? Yes. Interesting. Okay. And you said at just three to six milligrams, they're seeing some really impressive results?
Yes. Okay. So is there any research at higher doses for cognitive function? Not that I know of. Okay. Most of it has been done, you know, under. Under 12. I know nothing that is over 12 milligrams a day. Okay. Um, if you had to guess, and I'm, uh, clearly asking you to guess here, uh, would you feel like a higher dose would probably show even [00:33:00] enhanced benefits based on what else you've seen with higher doses of boron?
That's a tough one. Hard to say. I do not know. Okay. Yeah. Fair enough. It's hard to say. Fair enough. Just curious. Okay, so we have mental health, uh, and, and well brain health, we'll say cognitive function, uh, prevention of issues that way. Uh, obviously bone health, there's a lot of buzz lately about testosterone and boron and its, uh, impact on testosterone production.
What can you tell us about that? Um, you know, that's always a concern of our patients and the doctors we work with to say, you know, there is things in the literature that show you have to watch your hormone levels. And Dr. Fletcher's followed that for years, and I'm not sure how many hundred of patients that he followed, he found no appreciable changes in hormone levels with boron.
So in, in the research that would indicate that, uh, that, at least my understanding of it, and again, [00:34:00] I'm pretty, uh, new to this territory of boron research, is that it would enhance testosterone production. Is that not the case in your opinion? Not from the research that Dr. Fletchers has done. We just didn't see it.
Interesting. Okay. And, um, possibly with women that there may be a little bit of an effect, but with men it just didn't seem to budge. Testo a bit. Hmm. Okay. And you believe that in terms of, uh, PSA numbers and prostate enlargement, it is the anti-inflammatory benefit of boron that is creating that benefit.
Yes. Uh, so how does it act as an anti-inflammatory and where else might people see benefits, uh, in that department? That's an excellent question. I do not know the answer, but you know, it, it is kind of a, a takeoff of use of boron for osteoporosis and for osteo osteoarthritis. You know, it, it seems to work really, really well for arthritis.[00:35:00]
Hmm, interesting. And what do we, you know, that that's a type of inflammation, right? Uh, prostate inflammation causes the PSA to go up. So it is kind of intuitive to, to try it in that situation. Hmm, interesting. So then, do we have research that would indicate specific doses that people might use for osteoarthritis?
Um, Dr. Fletches usually starts out with 30 milligram twice a day. Okay, so on the higher, higher side then Yeah, on the higher, definitely the higher dose. Um, and tells people not to give up for a month, you know, if it's gonna work, it'll work within a month. And of course, we always have testimonials from people that say, well, I took it for two days and my arthritis went away.
Um, I'm having a hard time believing that anything works in two days, maybe. Maybe a little bit of placebo effect in that case. Yeah. I'm thinking that maybe it might be Okay. Fair [00:36:00] enough. But, but in a month, obviously bone density disease are. It's kind of a different animal cuz it takes some time, uh, to, to see a noticeable difference.
But when we talk about prostate, uh, when we talk about cognitive function, we talk about, um, anti-inflammatory benefits with arthritis. Would you say that 30 days is a reasonable amount of time for people to expect to see benefits, uh, based on what you've seen? Yes. Okay. All right. And so that's the basic recommendation is give it a month.
Yeah. Yeah. Give it a month and see what happens. You know, with osteoporosis, uh, both Dr. Abraham and Dr. Fletches. Dr. Fletches says nine months to a year with, for reasonable trial. Okay. With bone density. Very osteoporitic. Okay. Um, Dr. Abraham seemed to think three months. Was it reasonable time? I'm thinking three months might be a little bit quick.
I'm more along the lines of Dr. Fletcher's, you know, give it nine to nine months to a year. Well, it makes sense [00:37:00] to me anyway that it takes some time to, uh, uh, have a significant impact on, on bone loss, especially in someone who's very osteoporitic. But, uh, people that have been, um, That have maybe a family history of osteoporosis, but have not been diagnosed with osteopenia or osteoporosis.
Uh, just to clarify, even though I think I know the answer to this one, any reason why they shouldn't take it preventatively even if they don't have the condition? Um, no. You know, it's one of the, the elements that it either works or it doesn't, and is, you know, non-toxic for all practical purposes. So you're not gonna hurt anything.
So, you know, possibly, uh, preventative. I hadn't talked to doctors that are using it in that capacity, but it would not be unreasonable. Okay. And, uh, and I guess the same could be said for some of these other things, uh, particularly the, uh, cognitive, uh, function issues. That's really, really interesting. So some [00:38:00] people are aware that there's a relationship between boron and boric acid.
Can you tell us what the difference is between the two things? Uh, boric acid is a boron compound. It's a sodium salt of boron. So essentially when you take, uh, boric acid, it disassociate in the stomach and it's absorbed as the borate item. Okay. So is that an effective way to take it or are there better ways to take it?
I'm sorry. Is that a, an effective way to use boron or is there a better way to, to use it? Uh, other than boric acid, um, we, over the years have used potassium tetra borate. Okay. And that, that is just the preferred salt that Dr. Abraham and Dr. Fletches wanted to use. And so we have stuck with that one. And that is what all his research has done with is, is the potassium salt.
Okay. Are there, uh, [00:39:00] is that essentially a key chelate, then a, a boron attached to potassium salt? Uh, Yes. Okay. All right. And with, uh, with the research that you keep referencing, um, are there some, uh, I should have asked you this before we started the, the program, but are there some papers that I can link to in the show description for people to dig in a little bit deeper after they listen to this discussion for the high dose boron?
Yeah. Um, Dr. Fletchers is currently writing a book on high dose boron. Oh, okay. Which reminds me I need to. Question him to see how he's coming with that. Cause it's been in pro in progress for the last two or three years. All right. But he has not published any of the high dose boron that I know of. Oh, interesting.
But he will be referencing that, I assume in the book when it comes out. Yes. Okay. Fantastic. Well, that's, uh, yeah, that's encouraging. I'm excited to, to read what he, what he, uh, presents there. Uh, what other uses for boron that you have [00:40:00] seen? Uh, whether at low dose or high dose, uh, that people are, are seeing success with when they supplement?
Those are the indications that I'm most familiar with. Okay. There may be other things that people are using it for. I'm just not privy to. Okay. And with people that are using it, uh, for, uh, I, I guess I'm kinda looking at markers that people can pay attention to. Clearly arthritis, um, we, it's, you can feel that, right?
It's getting better or it's not getting better. Uh, bone density, uh, you're asking people to, or, or recommending that people maybe take nine months to a year, get another, uh, scan of some sort and figure out. Where they're at at that point. Um, yes, we can watch psa, uh, with a blood test. Um, do you feel like a few months is sufficient to get another PSA test for people?
Or what do you typically recommend there? Um, a lot of physicians use a 30 day window. Mm, okay. Cause I think that, I think that there again might be [00:41:00] a little bit quick. Okay. You know, I would think two months definitely there'll be a, a result. But there again, you know, the, the doctors we're working with will repeat in a month and they're successful.
Okay. And what about for someone who doesn't have a high PSA reading, but, uh, suspects prostate enlargement due to urinary flow and things like that? Um, that's something that you would anticipate, uh, if, if that's what's going on, boron could help. Within 30 days, it would certainly be worth a try. Yes. Okay.
All right. Excellent. And, um, are there any, um, Uh, any concerns, uh, at all with longer term use? Any differences in what a man might experience versus a woman when it comes to boron? It sounds like hormonally, there's no concern that you have there. Um, any other factors that people need to be aware of? Not that I can think of.
Okay. And are there things that people can use along with boron that would be [00:42:00] co-factors or that would, uh, potentially enhance the benefit? Um, no Boron seems to work independent. Interesting. So with, with your doctors, I'm curious, let's go back to osteoporosis for just a moment. Um, you know, you talked, you said D three and K2 makes sense to you.
Magnesium, uh, clearly makes sense. I, I think if I understand correctly that magnesium and boron have, uh, a pretty strong relationship to one another, uh, when it comes to bones and some of these other things. Um, but. When you're, when these doctors that you're referring to are using this high dose boron for osteopidic people at 90 milligram or the, OR osteoporotic I think is how you say it, 90 milligram or 150 milligram, um, are they also supplementing with these other things at that time to see those results?
Or is boron on its own making that big of an impact? Boron on its own. Wow, that's really, really fascinating. So do, do we know why or how boron is, uh, [00:43:00] doing that in the bone, how it's strengthening the bone, what the actual mechanism is? No, other than it, it is, it penetrates into the bone tissue itself and it properly facilitates magnesium absorption as well.
Oh, so it may actually enhance the absorption of the magnesium. Yeah. Interesting. Okay. Uh, a little bit of word, uh, uh, news out about strontium in the bones as well. Uh, what's your, what are your thoughts on that and maybe how it relates to boron? Um, I know Dr. Fletcher's in some patients that just do not seem to respond to Oron mm-hmm.
He will add strontium. And it seems to help with the bone density. Interesting. So he's had positive results, Withum. Okay. All right. Excellent. Okay, so then let's, uh, we, we can get pretty close here to wrapping up. I think, um, this is really fascinating stuff to, a couple of things that I wanna reiterate, just to make sure everybody's clear here, is, um, when we talk about the [00:44:00] LD 50.
That's the, pretty much the standard for toxicity. Uh, and the LD 50, you know, you said 3.4 grams, that's 3000. 400 milligrams of boron, uh, would be the LD 50, the, the toxic dose potentially. And we're talking about taking a maximum of 150 milligrams, uh, with people that are severely, uh, osteoporotic, uh, with these doctors.
So we're. Magnitudes of difference between a toxic dose and an effective dose. Um, so there really is no concern at all. Uh, and even though people are used to seeing three milligrams on the side of a supplement bottle and maybe have heard, cuz there there is some, there's a little pushback on this, isn't there, Charles?
Uh, in some people saying, Hey, that's not a safe dose. Be careful. That's correct. Um, is that just dogma? I mean, what, what do you, why do you think [00:45:00] there's pushback on those higher doses? What, what's your opinion on that? Uh, two things. I think they look on the health food store shelf mm-hmm. And see a three milligram dose, and then they look at, uh, uh, nutritional guidelines by the, the fda and see the top upper limit is 20 milligrams.
Mm-hmm. And, you know, as a patient I would look at that and be concerned. So if, if someone doesn't want to take my word for it or your word for it, how can they determine, um, how can they find this other evidence that you're pointing to that, that would indicate that the toxic doses infinitely larger than what we're talking about?
They just have to look on the, the FDA website. So, so, and see, look up the LD 50. So we can look up the LD 50 for Boron and it'll show us that higher dose, but we can also look on the FDA website and show that 20 milligrams is the highest recommended dose. So there's a little, so that can be a little confusing for [00:46:00] sure.
It is a little confusing. Yeah. And you know, I guess my only comeback for them is that we've been involved with Boron at High Dose for over 20 years, and as far as I know, Dr. Fletches has never had. A toxic reaction that's really, really interesting. Yeah. The, I guess the, the only concern would be is if you start taking boron and it starts pushing other toxins out of the body, you could get a, a detox reaction.
From that, so, you know, that's possible. Well, there have been some inter, uh, I've, I've read a little bit about people doing boric acid cleanses, uh, where they take a high dose of boric acid for the purpose of detoxifying the body. So I guess there's a little bit of precedent for it being a detoxifier. Yes.
Okay. Interesting. Um, have you found, uh, or, or recommended at all, any, um, type of detoxification with, with [00:47:00] boron or you just recommend using it for the prescribed purposes? And, um, if there's a detox reaction, would you recommend a lower dose initially for a while until, uh, people can sort of build up to the higher dose?
How, how do you typically use, utilize it that way? Right. You know, when people start. Boron initially for osteoarthritis sake, and they get a Herxheimer reaction or a, a detox reaction. It's the people that get the worst detox that do the best on the long term. Oh, that's interesting. So I know Dr. Fletches just has them push forward.
Uh, maybe if they get a reaction at 90 milligrams, go back to 30. For maybe a week. Mm-hmm. And then increase to 60 and then go to 90. But it, it's real curious that the people that really get the worst reaction are the ones in the long run that, that benefit the most. Interesting. And for those that aren't [00:48:00] familiar with the term herxheimer's reaction, can you explain that just briefly for us?
Sure. It's the, the reaction that you get as a detox to a specific medicine. And that might look like headaches or fatigue or, uh, those types of things. Yeah. Fatigue, headache, uh, stomach upset. Okay. Is there anything that would prevent somebody from absorbing and utilizing boron? Well, any concerns that people might have, uh, that, that may make boron less effective because of preexisting issues that they may be dealing with?
Not that I know of. Okay. Interesting. All right, well, we've exhausted my list of questions and a few that I came up with along the way. It's a fascinating topic. Uh, I would love to hear back from you once you've talked to, uh, Dr. Fletcher about his book. Uh, I definitely wanna read that one. Uh, is there any other literature that people could look at, uh, if they wanna dig a little deeper into this topic?
Any other, um, you know, podcast episodes or YouTube videos or anything that you might [00:49:00] recommend? Um, no, not that I can think of any podcasts. This is the first one that I have done that I've seen from a boron perspective. But if they're interested, just go into Google Scholar and pull up boron and put in the indication.
And there is tons of, of, of studies that have been done. Most of those studies have still been done at the lower doses though. Is that accurate? Um, That is correct. Okay. Exactly right. Okay. Well I really, really appreciate your time. I appreciate your expertise on this. We are certainly, um, recommending more boron than we've ever recommended at Vitality Nutrition.
Uh, we do have the 30 and the 75 milligram, uh, doses. And uh, I've very recently, just in the last. I'm trying to think here. I guess I've been using Boron, uh, as an additional supplement for just the last 30 days myself, but, uh, am just barely getting started on the higher dose. I was just using I, well, I was using what I thought was a high [00:50:00] dose.
I was using nine milligrams. Okay. Taking three of the three milligram a day. So we're going to, uh, uh, Jump that up because, uh, frankly, for, and people listening to the show know this, but, but you don't. My, uh, my father had Parkinson's disease, uh, for 10 years and, um, so one of my biggest concerns is, uh, all things neurological and cognitive in nature and, uh, prevention of that.
And so, and, and I did not, Recognize that there was any research on boron for that, I was expecting to talk primarily about the inflammation and the prostate and the bones. So that was, uh, that's, uh, really interesting information to me. I'm definitely intrigued by that. So I'll dig in some more. True. We'll have, uh, some links to a few, uh, things for you in the show description.
Um, and of course, if you have questions on anything that you've heard, On this episode of Vitality Radio, uh, you can give us a call at (801) 292-6662. That's 8 0 1 2 9 2 66 62. You can come visit us in Bountiful at Vitality Nutrition, or you can jump on our website, vitality [00:51:00] nutrition.com. Charles hla uh, I I did say that right, right.
Um, a pharmacist compounding Pharmacist, I. I am really, really grateful that you're willing to take the time. I know you just recently were moving and that's a crazy thing to do. So thanks for taking the time to be with me here on Vitality Radio. Great. Happy to be here.
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