Take the Last Bite

We’re delivering a batch of small bites featuring Doctor Who and extraterrestrial gender education [06:29]; parallels and lessons from a trainwreck in East Palestine, Ohio and Gaza, Palestine [35:54]; and getting things done (like web coding) with empathy [45:27].

Additional Resources and References from this episode: 
  • No Pride in Genocide – a collective of Queer and Trans anti-zionist Palestinians, Arab/SWANA folks, Jews, and allies working for a free Palestine.
  • Article: Norfolk Southern continues to defend CEO Alan Shaw’s leadership 
  • Article: Doctor Who has always been woke, and that’s the way real fans like it
  • Goblin.tools –  a collection of small, simple, single-task tools, mostly designed to help neurodivergent people find overwhelming or difficult
For questions, comments or feedback about this episode: lastbite@sgdinstitute.org

We’re on TikTok! You can also find us on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram or at sgdinstitute.org.

Host: R.B. Brooks, they/them, director of strategy and impact for the Midwest Institute for Sexuality and Gender Diversity

Cover art: Adrienne McCormick


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Creators & Guests

Host
R.B. Brooks
Director of Programs, Midwest Institute for Sexuality and Gender Diversity
Producer
Justin Drwencke
Executive Director, Midwest Institute for Sexuality and Gender Diversity

What is Take the Last Bite?

Take the Last Bite is a direct counter to the Midwest Nice mentality— highlighting advocacy & activism by queer/trans communities in the Midwest region. Each episode unearths the often disregarded and unacknowledged contributions of queer & trans folks to social change through interviews, casual conversations and reflections on Midwest queer time, space, and place.

For questions, comments and feedback: lastbite@sgdinstitute.org

To support this podcast and the Institute, please visit sgdinstitute.org/giving

Host: R.B. Brooks, they/them, director of programs for the Midwest Institute for Sexuality & Gender Diversity

Cover Art: Adrienne McCormick

R.B.:

Hey. Hi. Hello, Midwestie besties, and welcome to the special small bites episode of Take the Last Bite, The show where we take Midwest nice and parade it in front of every girl scout troop's cookie table where it has to debate if it'll crush the dreams of a little kiddo in a green vest or if it buys an infinite number of samoas and tack alongs. Today's episode is a cute little teaser for our upcoming season. Our small bites take a little nibble out of some big lessons our team has pulled from the last year, things we're thinking about as we're digging into this new year, and stuff that we're just really nerdy and hyped to talk about.

R.B.:

So it's a fun and thought provoking mixed bag this year. But before we dip into those lovely morsels, let's check-in real quick about what's carried over from 2023 and what has already flavored the new year 2024. 2023 brought us quite a few mega moments, including Barbenheimer, a manufactured rivalry between the Renaissance and heiress tours. Though, there's a clear victor, if we had to call it. Twitter went through a name change and a mass exit of users.

R.B.:

High in the sky, a balloon caused quite a ruckus as the US argued it was a Chinese spy balloon while China argued it was a weather balloon. And deep below the surface of the Atlantic Ocean, the Titan submarine imploded with a handful of wealthy risk takers on board. Noah Schnapp, most known for his role as Will Byers in Stranger Things, came out as both gay and a Zionist. So that's messy. 2023 also showed us the latest wave of anti trans and anti DEI tactics, particularly in politically red states such as Texas and Florida where they've moved to disband and defund LGBTQ plus diversity, equity, and inclusion, and other identity based centers and resources on college campuses.

R.B.:

Dylan Mulvaney was dogpiled by insecure beer drinkers on the Internet after she posted a video with a customized can from Bud Light, and the company quickly cowered and left her to fend for herself. But that's okay because she's living her best one showing up on magazine covers and doing photoshoots with Lady Gaga. Book nerds and trans bibliophiles united in March of 2023 to host a virtual trans readathon to to raise money for trans justice organizations. And rock star trans influencers, Mercury Stardust, and Jewelry, aka Alluring Skull on TikTok, raised $2,000,000 for point of pride plus some additional funds for their personal trans affirmation surgeries. The first few months of 2024 have been weighed down by an immense amount of grieving.

R.B.:

For more than 150 days, the people of Palestine Gaza have been ravaged by unrelenting genocidal violence doled out by occupying force Israel. Trans communities are in mourning in the aftermath of next Benedict's murder after being jumped in the girls' bathroom at their Oklahoma high school. And as we descend into a US presidential election year, the signs of extreme and exaggerated commentary about oppressed communities as political talking points are already showing. While these realities are important to hold and not look away from, This doesn't have to be how the entire year plays out. We can act and prevent more violence, grief, and disinformation from occurring.

R.B.:

Like pretty much all the years since 2020, the last year went by both quickly and slowly, defying really any concept of linear time, like a fever dream but in slow motion. There's been some hard knocks and some highlights. There's been some incredible triumphs and some utter devastation. But what's clear to me is there's a shared energy of being so incredibly fed up with existing systems that queer and trans folks and other folks impacted by systemic oppression are amped up. We're planning.

R.B.:

We're acting. We're ready to shake some shit up. And as the Midwest shakes off its unseasonably warm winter and tucks into springtime, we can look to nature and history as guides for how we can move forward together. Very little grows in winter in ice and darkness. It's not until spring that little sprouts start to peek out from soil, that the earliest signs of food sources and nourishment start to emerge, and all the animals that seek shelter or head to warmth in winter slowly start to make their way into plain sight.

R.B.:

We can be like that too. We can emerge from our resting, our ruminating, our waiting period, and come out this spring in full bloom with renewed strength and energy. The new year starts now. Today's episode is a variety pack of important and impactful moments discussed by folks from the Midwest Institute For Sexuality and Gender Diversity. You'll hear from us about the reboot of doctor who, the train derailment in East Palestine, Ohio, and developing web apps for the queer masses.

R.B.:

Mark your calendars for April 23rd when season 5 launches. And in the meantime, enjoy this small bite sample of Take the Last Bite.

INTRODUCTION:

Why can't we be in space with 100 of other queer and trans folks and having these necessary conversations?

INTRODUCTION:

When it comes to dynamics around privilege and oppression and around identity, well intentioned isn't actually good enough.

INTRODUCTION:

How far is too far to drive for a drag show? I don't know. We're in Duluth right now. I would straight up go to Nebraska, probably.

INTRODUCTION:

If you are not vibing or something's not right or also, like, there's an irreparable rupture, you have absolutely every right to walk away.

INTRODUCTION:

Definitely gonna talk about Midwest Nice. And if that's if that's, as real as it wants to think it is.

INTRODUCTION:

Midwest Nice is white aggression. That's what it is.

R.B.:

Our first small bite features our executive director and resident logistics puzzle solver, Justin, as we delve into their Doctor Who marathoning.

R.B.:

We get into a bit of the Doctor Who lore, some wish list items for the reboot, and an extraterrestrial gender education. Alright. So let's get into it. We're gonna reflex this muscle. It's been a little bit of time.

R.B.:

We took a nice necessary break after our last season and our big gay conference back in the fall in MBLGTACC. And, we're gonna do a batch of small bites. When we chatted about what we wanted to dig into for small bites, usually we kind of center year end recaps, which would have been, you know, thinking about the culminating experience of 123, thinking about joy and things that, made us happy or made us learn and grow, and also how we wanted to spend our time when we took that necessary break, after we implemented Mumble Tech 2023 in Lexington, Kentucky. And so there was, you know, there was a call out of who wanted to talk about what, and you had you had a big bright idea that you wanted to talk about, something that you know a whole lot about and I know Will it snowed out and we're gonna meet somewhere in the middle and we're gonna have a great time. So what what are we chatting about today, friend?

JUSTIN:

We're gonna talk about doctor who, which, you know, at the time that we started talking about planning out these episodes, the 60th anniversary specials, for the series were, just coming out. Right? We kinda started this conversation, as the 60th anniversary special start airing in November. And now they've aired. We've also had a Christmas special, and we're at a great time to to talk about that.

JUSTIN:

Right? You know, I wanna talk about the joy that I get from kind of paying attention to this series when and then there's a whole bunch of other stuff that we could tuck into.

R.B.:

Of course there is. So the reason I know nothing about it, right, and you know plenty is that I've not seen a sickle episode. Right? Like, not not a one. That's just not a fandom that I have gravitated towards but, clearly you have so like where where was your entry point with doctor who?

R.B.:

That got you, like, hooked got you into when did you start? Where'd this come from? Because

JUSTIN:

because yeah. Yeah. You know, I I I don't remember the exact timing. Right? But once upon a time, they're like Doctor Who was available on Netflix.

JUSTIN:

It's not anymore. It's kinda hard to track down where it is. Every everything changes with streaming. It's on one platform one day and right? But, you know, once upon a time, I was on Netflix, and I was kinda looking around for something to watch.

JUSTIN:

Was like, oh, I feel like I've heard about this. Let's give it a try. Right? And, the opening kind of episode of the revival period. Right?

JUSTIN:

So Doctor Who kind of was revived in 2,005, and so there's, like, a whole, like, new who generation. Right? That, of folks that really started to reengage in, in the series once it kind of rebooted in 2005. So that's that's that was my entry point was kind of coming into with the 9th doctor, and kind of just following that whole the whole series. It was kind of like a a fantasy escape, which was kind of what what got me hooked, right, is is being able to think about all of these things that were different from the the day to day constraints of of of, you know, our daily living, right, is is, you know, what is it like to experience society on different planets and with different species?

JUSTIN:

And then there was the element of, like, cultural discourse happening through kind of some of these explorations.

R.B.:

I'm also tracking that you watch a whole lot of British television and Do you know what to mean? People like just every time you're like, I'm watching this. And I'm like, what is that? And you're like, it's British television. Did this did this spark some of that?

R.B.:

Or did you already have this, like, allure for British TV?

JUSTIN:

I feel like this is one of the earlier ones. Right? And I think it kinda just turned me on to the idea of looking outside of the American media for different types of shows and stuff to watch. You know, a big thing that I was kind of personally drawn to, right, is is just, like, the the cultural differences. Right?

JUSTIN:

But also, like, even the format of the shows, just felt different. The timing and everything felt different. And I I guess a big part of it too was this when I kinda started watching Doctor Who and some of these other British shows, like, it was a time period when they were also all available on Netflix. Right? And, that was kind of like the golden era of Netflix where everything was there, and you didn't have to hunt around for different streaming services to find things.

JUSTIN:

Right? But when I think about kind of big picture differences, right, like, there's only so many medical dramas you can watch on TV. Right? And every every network has their own version of Grey's Anatomy. Right?

R.B.:

That which has also made a comeback, which I didn't know.

JUSTIN:

Oh, yeah. It's still chugging along, I guess. And and so it was just like it was kind of a refreshing break from kind of the format that I'd been used to seeing. Right? And it's, you know, kind of a set aside a little bit of, like, wanderlust almost.

JUSTIN:

Right? Like

R.B.:

Oh, okay.

JUSTIN:

Well, I'm not able like, I'm not necessarily gonna get be able to get on a plane and hop over to London or wherever. Right? But you can satisfy some of that that sense of adventure by being like, oh, look. Like, we're in this scenery, and it's not it's a place that I'm not familiar with. And, you know, it's even just like the geographical backgrounds are Mhmm.

JUSTIN:

Different and interesting. Okay. Yes. Yep.

R.B.:

Because have you ever been to the UK? Not to

JUSTIN:

the UK. No. Just just mainland Europe. Never to the UK, which is on the wish list. It's it let's go.

JUSTIN:

It's high on the wish list.

R.B.:

Let's I wanna go back very badly.

JUSTIN:

What's on the original Nando's?

R.B.:

Please. Please, Mando sponsor us. So that all makes sense. I I I have satisfied my own itch of, like, having been to the UK in the past, with watching British TV, because it is. It's just a different vibe.

R.B.:

I feel like there's also a lot of, like, just, like, TV show regulations that are a lot less strict than what you might get away with putting on American television, if that makes sense. A lot of more, like, sexualized content for a more mainstream, like, prime time audience, certain kind of topic areas. There's just there's just kind of like a crudeness, a careful crudeness that I think that, British TV can sometimes get away with that American TV does not. Yeah.

JUSTIN:

I think that also depends a little bit on, like, which like, who's producing that. Right? Like, you know, the the the big difference too, right, is if you look at shows that are produced by the BBC, right, that you're you've got kind of government esque funding of of some of these shows, where you've got television taxes and licenses kind of coming in to fund these things. Right? And the big difference there too is is the influence of capitalism on those productions.

JUSTIN:

Right? If you're instead of like watching a show on PBS for versus watching a show on ABC. Right? Being able to watch something kind of through without these obnoxious ad breaks that are 3 times the volume in between. Right?

JUSTIN:

But, yeah, I think it is also just like a more it's it's it's a less Puritan mindset. There it is.

R.B.:

That's the word. So let's let's get into this 60th anniversary specials. So that seemed to be a big hype for you. I don't, quite know maybe what the duration was between last sign of Doctor Who content and this special. So let's just let's just talk about what the 16th anniversary special was, what maybe some of the maybe without too many spoilers, right, what are some of the key key things that this maybe is riding off of and then maybe set us up for, on the horizon, and what was going on because we'll we'll get to the discourse, here in a minute.

JUSTIN:

Alright. Well, I'm just gonna throw a disclaimer out there to say, you know, I am I'll be careful to try to avoid any major spoilers. And, also, like, if you haven't watched the 60th anniversary specials yet, do that before you listen here. Right? So a couple key con context points, right, for you who has never seen the show.

JUSTIN:

Okay. You know, this this show, right, we we were celebrating the 60th anniversary. Right? It wasn't like it hasn't been airing every year for the last 60 years. There's there's been breaks and stuff in between.

JUSTIN:

Right? But, 60 years since the creation of of this show. And kind of one of the things that's allowed it to maintain its longevity, right, is that the main character, the doctor, has this ability to regenerate. Right? So, in the show, if the doctor is injured or dies, right, then the doctor can regenerate into a bring in a new person to start playing the character.

JUSTIN:

This is Up until the so these these 60th anniversary specials kind of start, by engaging with a a new regeneration of the doctor. Right? So this is centered on the 14th doctor, who is also played by David Tennant, who was a previous incarnation of the Doctor. Right? So Yes.

JUSTIN:

Really interesting kind of normally when the doctor regenerates, he comes into a brand new face, new personality. Right? And at the close of the series 13, the doctor regenerates into David Tennant and basically is like, why did this face come back? Right? So the 60th anniversary is kind of exploring, like, why am I revisiting this face.

JUSTIN:

Right? Kind of being able to kind of revisit, one of the former companions who is my favorite of of the companions done in Noble. And so these, specials kind of take place. They're 3 hour long ish specials that kind of explore, you know, 3 different discrete adventures, but a a larger theme, of the doctor basically saying, you know, you've been going and going and going from one adventure to the next, and you've never taken the doctor rest. Bam.

JUSTIN:

Right? Heard. And so, you know. Felt. Right.

JUSTIN:

So, you know, big picture theme is like, hey. You need time to, like, rest and process your trauma.

R.B.:

Okay. Subliminal message. Okay.

JUSTIN:

Yeah. Yeah. And it was it's kind of a big deal too because, you know, the the 60th anniversary specials, are coming at a time when Russell Davies is coming in as is coming back as as the showrunner for Doctor Who. So, he was responsible for rebooting the show in 2005. Then it went through a period of a couple other showrunners.

JUSTIN:

Lots of feelings and thoughts among the Doctor Who fandom about other showrunners, which, we won't necessarily get into today, all the way. Right? But, you know, there's kind of a it's an interesting time of, okay, we've got this showrunner from 2,005 of coming back, to to run the helm. Right? And then the other big context that it shapes, the show a little bit too is, so the show is produced by BBC, but starting with the 16th anniversary specials and then moving forward, Disney has now acquired the rights to air the show outside of the US.

JUSTIN:

Right? So now it's available on Disney plus Right? So there's this also big interjection of Disney cash into the production of the episodes. Interesting. Right.

JUSTIN:

So, you know, the the doctor's kind of closing some loops on some some threads of story that were, left a little bit open in in the 13th series, kind of working through, a couple of adventures now, and then, setting the groundwork for the next doctor when the when the next season starts in May, who is to be played by.

R.B.:

Yeah. Which I'm super excited about, because I love sex education, which is a zone, like But that's kind of what I thought about earlier when I was like, British TV gets to Yeah. Yeah. Differently, like Sex Education, Misfits, Skins, the UK version, not the US version because the US version was trash, because it literally just replicated. And it didn't that was a prime example.

R.B.:

That's another conversation for another day. But, like It's all translated. Ghosts. It does anything where

JUSTIN:

BBS picked it up and it just was like, it, it, it just felt sterilized.

R.B.:

We were just talking the other day about it was, we were technically talking about movies, but just like there are no original ideas out there anymore. Even though they they do exist, folks just wanna, like, repeat and replicate instead of.

JUSTIN:

Mhmm.

R.B.:

Good. We'll push it. That's new. So with all the hype for the 60th anniversary special from, you know, the long long form fandom and folks who are, like, you know, already bought into the David Tennant, Doctor Who Mhmm. Iteration.

R.B.:

Right? Like most things, nothing nothing can we this is why we can't have nice things. Along came also a gravy train of Mhmm. Trashy takes, folks wanting to not necessarily boycott, but folks saying, like, I'm never watching this again, because of some of the storyline and plot pieces, of the special. So I I think this is probably proper time to get into a bit of that just because Mhmm.

R.B.:

Just because I know you have some thoughts, and I'm sure I do too because

JUSTIN:

Yeah. Right? So I'm going. I, you know, am super excited about watching these episodes. Watch the episodes.

JUSTIN:

They're great. Right? And then social media does what it's gonna do and just starts all of a sudden populating my sheet with, you know, different articles about the show or different whatever. Right? Like, and then there's just kind of this trend that I started to to notice of doctor who goes woke now.

JUSTIN:

Right? And there's just a bunch of, like, trash comments about, oh my god, the doctor asked an alien what their pronouns are. Like, why? Right? Right?

JUSTIN:

There's there's, like, outrage over, you know, pronoun and the inclusion of of of trans characters, right? There's kind of residual outrage that, a woman had been cast to play the doctor. Right? 13th doctor was played by Jodie Whittaker. Right?

JUSTIN:

There's outrage that, 15th Doctor being played by a queer black man. Right? Mhmm. So there's, like, outrage about the casting, then there's outrage about the story line, and, you know, how dare you have, a character in a wheelchair? How dare you have a a trans character?

JUSTIN:

Right? And basically just saying, like, I I'm never gonna watch this again. Right? Missus Smith ruining the fandom, blah blah blah. Right?

JUSTIN:

And as I kind of see this popping out over and over and over and over again, I I just can't help but think that, like, part of the reason this is maybe so visible to me too is that social media tends to prioritize things that, like, get the biggest comments right or the most interaction. Right? And so we've got you've got all of these kind of clickbait articles being produced and and, you know, hot takes that are lukewarm at best, right, that are really just trying to stoke some tensions. Right? And it's it's a really big problem to when, like, over and over, like, Facebook feed is just still with these, you know, trash articles and all of these comments that it's like, why is this what's being served?

JUSTIN:

Right.

R.B.:

There's a phrase for that, and I wish I could remember what it was. But I remember, I think it was Mercury who Mercury Stardust who'd been talking about how there there's some kind of phrase for kind of putting up and packaging kind of contentious content specifically for the purposes of stoking engagement. There's a phrase here that, you know, I think that that definitely is a deep seated issue with social media in general. And then when it comes to, like, especially pop, popular content, pop culture, media that has a fandom such as, you know, Doctor Who, I also think about, like, the Marvel Universe is a also textbook example of folks being like, why are you creating these characters? Why are you testing these people?

R.B.:

It's like because the storylines already exist, you just didn't actually read the comics, or, you know, conceptualizing something new instead of just replicating the Superman movies 1500 time. You know, I mean, So, like Right. Is it is a chronic thing that we see kind of time and again. And I also, you know, feel like it's it distracts and starts to trivialize the story lines of, you know, nondominant narratives. In this case, there's a trans character.

R.B.:

Right? And so in this instance, it feels like the only purpose, quote, unquote, her storyline is serving in a singular episode, I think, was the the cause of ire, or singular episode of the special was a particular ire, was that it just trivializes her storyline in the special as, like, a contribution to wokeness from the perspective of, like Mhmm. Proposition. Does that make sense? Right?

R.B.:

She doesn't get to be held as a dynamic character. She doesn't get to be held as someone who's, you know, pushing the larger plot or the storyline or the purpose of, you know, the the namesake character Doctor Who. You know, she's just there to serve diversity points with a woke critic. Yeah. I mean to that.

JUSTIN:

Right. And if you only pay attention to that, like, one scene. Right? So, like, there's a bunch of articles about, you know, the about Rose, who's Donna's daughter in the show. Right?

JUSTIN:

So played by a trans actress. Like, there's a bunch of commentary about this this character calling out the doctor to say, oh, you're you're assuming he is a pronoun, right, for an alien. Right? Like, why are we applying human gender expectations onto alien sex? Right.

JUSTIN:

First of all, awesome. But, like, also that ignores all of the other ways that this character has, you know, interacted throughout the episode. Right? So there's all the spicy hot take on, you know, calling doctor for pronouns. Right?

JUSTIN:

But Mhmm. Also, like, this character is a big reason why, like, Donna Noble is able to live at the end of the episode. Right? Like, there there's a lot of story back baked into that. I'm sorry.

JUSTIN:

So so sure. Even even going back to, you know, series 3 or 4, but, right? So, you know, it is there's there's so much more to this character versus just what's being included in the clickbait articles.

R.B.:

Mhmm. Imani Barbarin had a post

JUSTIN:

up the

R.B.:

other day, talking about how oftentimes you'll see in science fiction or fantasy or just kind of fiction in general that's kind of thinking about future, that oftentimes those storylines, those environments, those, you know, newly conceptualized spaces, don't include disabled people was Amani's particular point, in the sense that but the only way that we could have anything close to a utopia or kind of a more liberated future, if you will, is is that folks would envision that that means also all concepts of disability are, quote, unquote, cured or eliminated, and how that actually erases and problematizes the fact that disabled people, in some way, shape, or form, will always inherently exist, and that the the forms of ability that we have now, you know, will shift with those with those liberatory shifts. And I feel like, generally speaking, that could be broadened to queerness and transness, racialized identities, right? That, like, there is a certain certain assumption that a fantasy future or a fantasy land or a utopia of any variety, like does not include these varieties of difference, which is so counter, I think, to what we know as the truth in that it will actually be a queer place, a more racialized place in a sense of not having systemic racism, but just that, like, there will be so much more expansive understandings of who we are as people, and that to eliminate those differences in either, you know, writing, literature, or media, TV, what have you, these stories, right, will have to capture that difference.

R.B.:

And so I think about that in terms of folks kind of getting all up in their feels, about a black doctor, something like a queer doctor who, a woman doctor who, right, a trans character just in the doctor who universe. Right? Like, folks' unwillingness to view that as indicative

JUSTIN:

of what the future will look like. Right. And, also, it's science fiction. Right? Exactly.

JUSTIN:

It's it's fiction. So, like, why can't the doctor be black? Why can't the doctor be a woman? Right? It's not real.

JUSTIN:

And, you know, there's a lot that this show too still has to contend with. Right? There there's a 60 year history of the show, which means that there's a lot of mess in its past. Right?

R.B.:

Mhmm.

JUSTIN:

That also needs to be addressed in that. Right? But, like, finally, in the 16th anniversary special, we see the TARDIS get an upgrade where there's finally wheelchair accessibility to get into Mhmm. The ship.

R.B.:

Mhmm. To go in it?

JUSTIN:

It's been 60 years. It's been 84 years.

R.B.:

But that that's what I mean. Right? Like, even if this is fictional and story like, storybound to a thing that doesn't technically exist. Right? Like, not incorporating.

R.B.:

Like, if you're if you're, you know, ideating on a world in which there's people, human people or, like, different species of people to not have things that are predicated on our current existence. Right? Like, is a dick like, just it has to be there. There. It has to be there.

R.B.:

The Tardis should have already been wheelchair accessible.

JUSTIN:

A 100%. Yeah. And and, you know, then you go even beyond to to to start to explore, you know, all of these other species that exist outside of Earth. Right? And Mhmm.

JUSTIN:

Why do they have to be humanoid? You could make the argument, right, that, like, you shouldn't have a step into the tardis even if it's, like, beyond, you know, disability inclusion. Right? Like, you've got different species that move differently. They don't look humanoid.

JUSTIN:

Right? And and so it really, puts a new meaning to the term universal design.

R.B.:

18. I told you I'm gonna try to find this quote, later, but there's there's a collective of folks, including my beloved Adrienne Maree Brown, Lolita Amisha, some other folks, right, where they they specifically center their playing with science fiction around, this additional subgenre, if you will, of science fiction, of visionary fiction. Right? The emphasis on that being kind of conceptualizing worlds, with liberatory and transformative concepts in mind. Right?

R.B.:

And I think that that's my bridge there. Just, like, even if the Doctor Who verse is not actual and tangible in this moment, right, it still represents possibility. It represents what can be done differently. It represents different ways of being in relationship, especially when you add these nonhuman species Mhmm. You know, beings into the equation.

R.B.:

I think of Octavia Butler in particular too, which I mentioned that there's a lot of storyline where there's this really complex relationships between, you know, human beings from Earth, but these, kind of gender defining, social role defining other beings, that we would technically call alien, but, like, in their own right are just their own types of, arrangements of species and people, technically, people, doing things very differently, right, to kind of hold that possibility in the thinking of too surety, whereas there's this, you know, very dominant mainstay of science fiction that's like, well, everything will be perfect, and everyone will be able-bodied, and everyone will be in heterosexual relationships, and everyone will you know what I mean? Like, just like it's it's not even it's not even acknowledging our existing circumstances and our existing diversity, if you will, to conceptualize futures. It's just kind of primping and polishing in this very sterile and non non, like, unrealistic way. Like, I feel like science fiction that talks about societies and people needs to be realistic about who's currently here before you can kind of step into this play place. I'm conceptualizing what else could be there.

R.B.:

Maybe that's not an absolute, but, like, in in general, right, we can kind of see we all know examples of science fiction that's just, like, everything will be perfect, and everyone will be perfect. And it's like that's that's not how people work.

JUSTIN:

I am going back through right now and watching some of the, like, original, like, classic era episodes.

R.B.:

What I thought. Yeah. From, like, the earliest.

JUSTIN:

Yeah. Yeah. Like, we started with, like, you know, first doctor. Right? We just watched an episode where the doctor traveled to the future, to the year 2018.

JUSTIN:

I was just I heard you. Humans humans were supposed to have hover cars. Right? Like, have personal helicopters and hover cars. And I'm just like, well, where is that?

JUSTIN:

No.

R.B.:

No. We don't have that.

JUSTIN:

It's yeah. It's just it's interesting to me to, like, look at some of these shows that were created in the past looking toward 2018, 2020, 2024, right, as in the future and saying, this is what's going to happen. This is what's going to exist. And we don't have any of it.

R.B.:

Yeah. Well, but you can, buy a really expensive pair of goggles or, a new piece of technology to track your partner's whereabouts at any given point in time. But, the technology that might actually improve people's livelihoods is nowhere to be found.

JUSTIN:

Correct. Uh-huh. Yeah. You know? So I guess just to kinda put a bow on it.

JUSTIN:

Right? Like Yeah. Yeah. There's a 60 year legacy of this show. Right?

JUSTIN:

But if you look at kind of over arching of everything. Right? Like, there's constantly been messaging that's critiqued. There's been critiques of misogyny. There's been critiques of war.

JUSTIN:

There's been critiques of racism. There's been, you know there's kind of always been this level of social commentary within the series. Right? So first of all, the folks that are saying, oh, well, Doctor Who is just getting, you know, too woke now. Right?

JUSTIN:

First of all, they don't they're not paying attention. Or they're parroting the current popular talking points that have taken hold both in the US and the UK. Right? Like, as far as who's in power and who gets to set messaging. And, also, if it's not for you, if you don't wanna see that, then don't watch it.

JUSTIN:

Right? But don't spoil it for the rest of us who wanna sit here and enjoy

R.B.:

it. But that feels like a a final thought technically, but is there any anything else you wanna name? Is there anything you're looking forward to or any big open questions? You're hoping are answered in this next this next run coming up in May with the new upcoming doc?

JUSTIN:

Oh, my god. I mean, there's so many questions. There are so many questions. Right? So, like, none of this is gonna make any sense to you.

JUSTIN:

Right? But whose hand picked up the gold tooth?

R.B.:

That is such a sentence. For it's out. I'm good. I hear this again.

JUSTIN:

Like, who is the one who waits? Right? Who ends Ruby Sunday? All of these like, there's all of these questions that I think are going to be explored in the upcoming series. Right?

JUSTIN:

And I think the series of specials just was such a great way of like setting up some of the storylines that might exist moving forward.

R.B.:

Whose hand picked up the gold tooth? This is gonna sit with me all day.

JUSTIN:

Yeah. I mean, it's way too much context to get in shape

R.B.:

with those. This episode, but Such an arrangement of words. Okay. Okay.

JUSTIN:

Well I'm

INTRODUCTION:

gonna make

JUSTIN:

you watch it now. And just Ugh.

R.B.:

You add it to my list. That's totally fine. I don't even know what it is about it that's just never I think it's probably the access because like you said like it doesn't really live in one place streaming wise perpetually I Think I'm also just one of those people who's like everyone else likes it, so, like, I don't wanna like it right now. You know what I mean? Like, I wanna give it its time and its space, but, like, with Yeah.

R.B.:

Shu Ti coming up the the shoot, if you will. That was dumb. How I can figure out people were inclined, because I love that human. I'm pretty excited about that.

JUSTIN:

Yeah. And in general, it's gonna be so I'm I'm very excited to see. Right? Because the Christmas special was all shooty as the doctor. Right?

JUSTIN:

And so just, like, the first glimpse of this actor, I'm I'm super excited to see where else he takes it. Cool.

R.B.:

Well, to be continued, maybe we'll pick a background and do some do some recapping and some processing on the mic when, that gets going. But, I'm very intrigued now and learned a whole lot about this show, and people's very fragile deals about it. But,

JUSTIN:

my god. Yes. Cool.

R.B.:

Our next small bite is a quick monologue about connections between seemingly disparate places and how the lessons learned about combating injustice in small Midwestern towns reflect the ways we can fight back against genocidal tactics across the globe. I wanna take folks back to the beginning of 2023 3 when on February 3rd, a massive chemical spill took place due to a literal train wreck in East Palestine, Ohio. Breaking news articles reported, quote, the chemicals that spilled and were later burned near East Palestine, Ohio after the February 3rd train derailment have the kinds of names that bring back visions of high school chemistry, vinyl chloride, butyl acrylate, and isobutylene. I I'm almost surely not saying those correctly, but you get the point. The damage and violence and impact of this train wreck could have been avoided.

R.B.:

Then when we look at the end of 2023, the year came to a close in the midst of a weeks long, now months long display of a decades long genocidal occupation against Palestinian people in Gaza. The damage and violence and impact could have been avoided. As a self Emergent Strategy Scholar courtesy of Emergent Strategy by Adrienne Maree Brown, I'm thinking about word association, connections, coincidences. Adrienne Maree Brown talks about one of the principles of emergent strategy being that small is all and that the larger is a representation of the small, which has me thinking about how this seemingly small discrete devastation of the Ohioans displaced by a train wreck is connected to the publicly witnessed displacement and devastation of Gosens. Admittedly, by the end of 2023, I'd almost forgotten about the train wreck.

R.B.:

But when I did finally remember, I recalled how purely by word association that as I learned about the village of East Palestine, Ohio, I thought about Palestine Gaza, the West Bank, and the occupation. I'm sure we were all meant to forget about the train wreck In the same way that the globe is shielded from the daily ick of the open air prison that is Gaza. We have been shielded from what has happened in the aftermath of chemicals burning for days after the train derailment in Ohio. I also remember how Evan Lambert, a DC based journalist who is also gay, was pulled to the ground, handcuffed, and arrested for trespassing during an open press conference where the Ohio governor was giving updates about the train derailment and chemical spill. And from there, my mind jumps to Bassan and many other journalists in Gaza who have ensured the world has not been able to look away from the ways Israel has unabashedly ravaged Gaza for more than 150 days and how without journalists who take risks, the truth would never come out.

R.B.:

Those displaced after the train derailment and who chose to move and leave and not come back were eligible for funding for relocation. 1,000,000 of dollars have been paid out by the railroad company liable for the incident, Norfolk Southern, to residents who've chosen to leave. But what ultimately hasn't been answered and what residents have been incredibly concerned about is the long term health of this chemical spill. One article covering the status of things in East Palestine, Ohio 6 months after the toxic train crash quotes a resident as saying, it feels like an apocalyptic movie. In an article published 2 months after the train derailment, people living in East Palestine said they've been suffering from vision impairment, shortness of breath, sore throats, and other symptoms after testing positive for cancer causing toxins following the train derailment.

R.B.:

Residents say they are concerned about the long term health effects of the derailment. And payments from Norfolk Southern were scheduled to end on February 9, 2024, just a few days after the 1 year anniversary of the derailment. Meanwhile, money is flowing strongly and increasingly into the wallet of Norfolk Southern CEO, Alan Shaw, who became CEO CEO in May 2022. So not a long standing leader at the time of the train wreck. Shaw received a 37% salary increase in the same year as the train derailment, landing him at $13,400,000 in earnings in 2023, and he still holds his CEO position.

R.B.:

If you're wondering how this is going on without pushback, I'm glad to say it's not. Not quite, anyway. A recent article from March of this year paints a really interesting picture of what's been going on between the major stakeholders of Norfolk Southern. And Cora Holdings Group, which holds a $1,000,000,000 stake in the railroad, has been asking lots of questions. They've been nominating candidates for the board that they feel are more capable compared to the existing members and making calls for the replacement of Shaw in large part due to the, quote, industry worst operating results, sustained underperformance, and tone deaf response to the derailment in East Palestine.

R.B.:

So I think the big question is, who pays for this in the long term? And I think the answer in any struggle is that the people pay with their lives, with their health, with their homes, with their assets. They pay with their histories. They pay with their gifts. They pay with their talents.

R.B.:

They pay with the sacrifices that they did not willingly give. The people always pay and the big beacons of power who actually are the ones producing the scenarios in which the people have to pay never actually have to pay for their mayhem. Even when they're paying 1,000,000 of dollars in payouts or covering the cost of new self proclaimed safety measures such as Norfolk Southern's making it right campaign, that is chump change for them, and they'll continue to do the things that are harming people. In recent years, legislators, largely called on by water protectors, indigenous nations, and climate activists, have pushed bills that would increase the dollar amount for fines and penalties related to damage, water contamination, soil disruption, and other infractions at the hands of pipeline companies doing work in Minnesota. While the dream goal is to put an end to pipelining forever, larger fines for violations could start to make these multibillion dollar corporations pay attention to their operations when it impacts their bottom dollar.

R.B.:

Perhaps this is a route to be considered for other industrial corporate projects that impact land, lives, and climate. When I think about the people of East Palestine, Ohio and the people of Gaza, Palestine, I firmly believe these struggles can be in conversation Because the timelines of these violences, even though they're geographically separated, are deeply connected. Displacement of entire communities due to corporate greed and oversight, threats to water, soil, nature, and natural resources, small drops of aid and financial resources that barely scratch the surface while others are being made wealthy through destruction. Disruption, terror, confusion, aftermath, these are characteristics and realities of both situations, and we will benefit greatly from reaching to the root of these interrelated injustices and teasing through how power, wealth, greed, and neoliberalism are the foundations of all injustices. Again, Adrienne Maree Brown invites us to see how the large is a reflection of the small.

R.B.:

And by looking at the 5,000 residents of East Palestine, Ohio, we can adapt lessons from the struggle against Palestinian occupation in Gaza and the West Bank that can inform how a Ohio, Pennsylvania border town can struggle for remediation and eventually win. From the Midwest, Our final small bite is a tour into the mind of our director of technology, Andy, as they brainstorm a short TED Talk style presentation about what they've discovered building and coding our organization's tech systems for the last 8 years. Alright, fam. So we're back. You're offering us a little small bite today, about probably the most nerdiest thing you could possibly nerd out about, which is the thing that you have spent most days, many days, for 8 consecutive years working on, which is our tech slate, our all of our institute Mumble Tech related technology, which you are intimately familiar with because you built the damn thing, and you continue to build the damn thing.

R.B.:

So, what it sounds like inspired us chatting about this in particular today, is that you have an opportunity to submit, a talk of some kind, and you're currently motivated around and in a headspace of working on this proposal, and you wanna talk about some of your lessons learned through building over the course of 8 years, enterprise, which is our big, you know, tech ecosystem that you have crafted. So there's a lot of places I think we could start with exactly that. I am serving as your rubber duck today, to also help you unlock kind of ways that you might wanna talk about this, and also just offer lessons through the podcast, channel, to folks who are interested in web development, tech, who might just be starting. So there there's a couple places to tuck in here. But, I'm gonna I'm gonna be your rubber duck, which

R.B.:

is a

R.B.:

web development exactly. Yes. A web development concept that maybe not everybody knows, but it's perfect for this arrangement.

R.B.:

So, I mean, I googled rubber duck Cause I was like me explaining rubber duck is whatever.

ANDY:

But anyway, basically you talk to a the I talk to the rubber duck that sits on my desk at all times and tell him about the problems that I have and how I think I can solve them or how

R.B.:

Specifically your tech problems.

ANDY:

Yeah. Tech problems.

R.B.:

I mean, other problems, I don't

ANDY:

know. Rubber duck is a good therapist. Sometimes a term of talking to something or somebody talking to your pets, talking to your significant other about something that they probably don't understand, but you just need that body double to get your thoughts and explain it where your mental monologue might not be cutting it anymore.

R.B.:

So you might be hitting a block or you need to tease something out or unlock some additional thoughts or language about it and get unstuck. Take your eyes away from, like, the thing that's causing the hiccup, whether it's the bug in the tech or the life crisis, and you're gonna talk it through with an inanimate object or just kind of a willing proxy, to unlock the thing. So that is why I say I'm serving as the duck today, to help you kind of think through how might you break down into smaller, digestible pieces this large, long longstanding project of building enterprise for the Midwest Institute For Sexuality at General University. That's my my role here today.

ANDY:

And also should probably give context of, like, I would like to submit a talk. And some of my coworkers were like, hey. Haven't you been working on this thing for 8 years? Maybe talk about that would be interesting. And, and of course, all of these little sprouts and nuggets of ideas of, oh, I could talk about this or I could talk about that.

ANDY:

Now I have to sit down and write something. Yeah. That is your

R.B.:

least favorite thing to do is write this,

ANDY:

which is my least favorite thing to do. Especially

R.B.:

write code, but writing a proposal is a little bit of a muscle stretch for you. Yes.

ANDY:

Yes. And especially when the prompt is describe your talk.

R.B.:

There was something you started to say before we hit record that I think is a really cool place to start where, essentially, you were getting at that the story of the tech that has been built and designed by you, right, for our organization and our respective programs does in fact tell the story of our organization and our programs, Right? The things that you have developed out. So can you say a bit more about, like, kind of how the building out of our tech stuff starts to tell the story of the organization and our, programs that we've crafted over the course of 8 years.

ANDY:

So if we go back to the beginning of the institute, that was 2016 ish.

R.B.:

Mhmm. Yes.

ANDY:

But the first mimble tech that we did was 2017 in Chicago. So we needed a way to have people register for the conference. Maybe we did proposals through the app at that point. I can't remember, but like the main impetus was we want to get people's money for tickets. And so we built an app for that, or I built an app for that.

ANDY:

And then it grew to also include workshop proposals and surveys. I mean, I I've rewritten the thing 2 or 3 times over the years and like it has grown with me as a developer. Like Mhmm. If I looked back at the code from those early days, it would, a, be using a technology stack that I don't really use anymore. Styling that doesn't look anywhere near what current design trends are.

ANDY:

You would go back and look at it and you'd be like, this looks like crap, both inside and out. And I think it's interesting to like talk about how nothing, it doesn't have to be perfect. It just has to get the job done. In my work in a digital agency where like I work with clients all of the time, I definitely see client developers because you don't have all the information yet. Just like we didn't have all the information way back in 2017 of like what the conference is gonna look like now.

ANDY:

Our interpretation of what the conference looks like has changed drastically over the last 8 years. So thus the application. That helps run registration surveys, workshops, volunteer signups, etcetera, has, you know, shifted and changed course a few times over the years, as well as my own way of writing code has changed and grown over the years. I just think that story is interesting to see the real world example. That's not blocked by being private because our source code is open sourced and anybody could go look at it right now.

ANDY:

I mean, looking back at 8 years ago, Andy, I would have loved to see an application like this. See how a expert in the field builds a thing, how they solve, oh, there's 500 people to a 1000 people who need name tags. How do you print all of them? And how do you manage that? And how do you send emails to everybody?

ANDY:

How do you structure this thing? How do you enable? It's just cool to look at how other people write things. Looking back at 8 years ago, Andy, I feel like I would have learned a lot from present day Andy. And so I'm like, want to share that with other people.

ANDY:

I just want to hit on like high level things of, you know, it doesn't have to be perfect. It's okay to change your mind and grow. And you're not like pigeonholed into an old way of thinking or old way of doing things. And

R.B.:

What what would you say has made it that you have landed on, especially the takeaway about perfection? Right? Like, what do you think about what is it about having built and worked on enterprise in the time that you have that has brought you to a place of comfortability and realization that things don't have to be perfect? How did you come to that place with this project?

ANDY:

I think deadlines of like, okay, you know, we have mimble tech coming up and this thing needs to be working.

R.B.:

Or

ANDY:

workshop proposals need to go out. So it needs to get to a good enough state. Yeah. People experience bugs, and then I fix them. And I learned from those fixing.

ANDY:

And so if you try to, if you spend all of your time and energy trying to make it perfect, in my experience, that burns me out like none other. And it's just easier to let people play with it and break it. And then I go back and fix it because people do things that I wasn't expecting them to do.

R.B.:

So Yeah. And that that just takes a lot of brain energy and brain juice to try to predict what some of the issues are going to be, especially when we're working what I think, like, with our larger audience of, like, LGBTQ youth and those who support them and with the with the conference being primarily LGBTQ college students and higher education professionals. Right? Like, they will tell not if something is not exactly. Right?

R.B.:

But, like, they are a prime community of people to kind of communicate back to us in a way that is generative and useful of just like, hey. I'm having an issue, you know, using this. Or I think some of the conversations we've been able to have as a team, after our last workshop review process where we got some comments from proposers who were like, hey. My neurodivergence actually makes it a bit difficult for me to feel confident finalizing my submission or, you know, reaching a certain deadline for this. And we were troubleshooting and having conversations about how can the tech shift with communities that are able to name and have the language to communicate this thing so that we're kind of prioritizing the access and the simplicity of using a tool versus the perfection of the tool and making it professional or polished or whatever.

R.B.:

Right? Like, that that will come along with it because you're skilled and talented, but, like, our priorities can shift with what the community necessarily is telling us is is needed in the ability to use a tool.

ANDY:

And I think also my, the code that I'm going to write for this is inherently a little sloppier. I will say than what I would do in my day job. But my day job is putting my code in front of clients and asking them to pay us an expert level rate for my expert level code. And so, yeah, I put a lot more care into what I produce at work than I technically do for the Institute. But I also think expecting excellence all of the time is unreasonable.

ANDY:

And so expecting excellence of yourself all of the time is also unreasonable, says the person who is also a perfectionist.

R.B.:

I'd like I'd like to believe, right, like, if I had to name it, I feel like because your day job is your paid job, you your care for the product is a requirement of your job, whereas in the institute realm, right, our care is for our community and our, like, network. And so we're offering these tools and services and able to play and give ourselves the room and grace and freedom to know that it's not gonna be perfect because perfection drains the energy and time that we're already using to do this volunteer labor to to have the best time using our tools also gives lessons for, like, what other ways can technology expand and be attuned and mindful to neurodivergent folks, queer and trans folks, disabled folks. Right? Like, we're kind of learning a community as you are designing and building. And also just, like, making efficient you know, building systems, which I think is such like a neurodivergent Yeah.

R.B.:

Like, skill set of just, like, RB says a thing they need to have happen. Maybe it exists, maybe it doesn't, and you play. You play and find a way and be like, well, if I can make the tool do this, I can make the tech do this thing, and we'll troubleshoot it to, like, make yes. We can build our own systems, which is such, like, a queer ass thing to be able to do.

ANDY:

I mean, if we wanted to, we could go out and pay for Qualtrics. So that the survey tool that everybody uses where That

R.B.:

is a survey tool.

ANDY:

Super expensive and cost prohibitive for a small nonprofit. So it's like, why would we pay for that when we don't need all of those features? We can build the features we need as we need them. Get it good enough. Good enough is probably better than perfect Mhmm.

ANDY:

In a lot of cases because you have spent time and energy on the product rather than the journal, like the internal stuff that nobody's going to see, nobody cares about. I'm just wanting to get it done. So it's off my plate and I can think about something else.

R.B.:

The next the next set of requests from the team.

ANDY:

Yeah. The next

R.B.:

set of requests. Which Yes.

ANDY:

Which is never ending.

R.B.:

Yes. Well and, like, I I was gonna head us towards too because I know there was a a point you wanted to you've been brainstorming and how you might deliver this talk about, like, the ways in which it's kind of a communal process of determining, like, what new features or what are the things that need to get built out and what are the ways that we wanna do them.

ANDY:

I think the way that we build out features is very different than how I have seen other companies that I've worked with through DayJob of how they structure things. And it's very like, higher, like business goes to product who goes to developers with marching orders and nobody has agency to change anything. And so I like our approach of this, like very collaborative thing of you, a non technical person.

R.B.:

That's me.

ANDY:

Who you're like, I want to be able to do this. And I think it could work like this, or I have no idea how it should work. Do you have ideas of how it should work? And we have this collaborative feedback most of the time. Sometimes I just take an idea and I run with it and I'm like, here you go.

ANDY:

Have fun. Tell me what's broken.

R.B.:

Which I do. Most of

ANDY:

the time I feel like it's a fairly collaborative. Okay. Let's take the workshop proposal process. Okay. Like we built it a certain way.

ANDY:

Last year where there's a rubric and people have reviews and the reviews are summed and totaled in various different ways. And we're like, okay, we like that. And now we want to add on to it, assigning specific people to review specific things. Yeah. Last year I could have added in an assigning feature.

ANDY:

And it was a thing in the back of my head of, oh, this might be useful in the future. But instead of spending the time doing it last year, I waited. And now, we have a much better idea of what we want and how it actually will inform other things. So maybe instead of buying a project management tool, why don't we use this assignment feature that we need for this one specific thing and use it for other things? Mhmm.

ANDY:

So you build the thing once, but we didn't have that context a year ago. So I would have built it wrongly a year ago. Now I have to make this thing that I built for this very specific niche purpose and make it adapt to this larger context. Whereas I don't have to do that now. I could just be like, okay, here's the larger context.

ANDY:

Now let's take what we need and build it accordingly. I guess that one of the big takeaways is like plan what you need to build. Don't overbuild it and reevaluate every so often how the thing you built is working.

R.B.:

I I think the simplicity there is key. If the tool was too complicated, and I think that project management tools are a really great example as someone who hates them is that you jump in there, and it's like, there could could be a tutorial talking me through every step of the way, but it's very cumbersome. There's a lot of buttons. There's a lot

ANDY:

of features. There's a lot

R.B.:

of form yeah. When I think about, like, the process of adding things small bits at a time, like, that's harm reduction. The simplicity of being able to pick back up a workshop proposal process tool and know, here's the difference between sorting and filtering that I learned. Right? Like and I will remember that piece of just, like, I know the tool can do this very simple set of things, and it was designed accordingly.

R.B.:

We're using this for key projects. I mean, some of the stuff is, like, the website is daily, but, like, registration, the workshop proposal process, there's certain, tools within enterprise that just are very specific to times of year. But the simpler Right. The better because different people are gonna touch that at different time.

ANDY:

And I feel like none of that was very technical. So maybe this is just a soft talk, but I don't want to do a soft talk.

R.B.:

I don't know what that means.

ANDY:

Okay. In tech spaces, because there's a, an abundance of males, there has been this trend of men give technical in the weeds talks. And it's also very common for women to give soft talk. As a non male and more so want to give a talk that's, like, firmly in the middle What

R.B.:

I'm what I'm hearing, right, like, if it if it's helpful to, like, capture, like, just, you know, this could be a title. This could be just, you know TLDR. Framework. Yes. Right?

R.B.:

Of just, like, how to craft code and tech tools that are accountable to community. When it come we we know generally that be between the representation of who is in tech jobs and folks who use tech tools. Right? Like, marginalized folks are not prioritized on either end of those, you know, dialectical relationship. But then we also know on the other end of things, like, you started to name with some of the gender dynamics and the historical kind of makeup of who gets lauded as, like, the experts or the, you know, most qualified or most capable tech developers and coders and whatever, you kind of bring this perspective that speaks on what does it look like to actually be in a dialectical relationship with the folks that are using the tool and also doing your own research and homework and being in conversation with the rest of our team who is just perpetually paying attention to what are the greatest issues impacting LGBTQ young people and then making a tool that cares about that on the fly if we have to.

R.B.:

Right? Like, modifying things, running things through accessibility, like, audits to see if the, the contrast is correct on the website to be able to be as legible as possible, having the conversations about how we make a workshop proposal process that is accommodating and affirming as possible for neurodivergent people. We are perpetually, right, reviewing all of our outputs, which very much includes tech and website, and the tools that folks use to participate in our programs. And so that feels very technical with this, like, encapsulation around it of, like, how do you hold the humanity of people in the code?

ANDY:

I mean, we're gonna make mistakes. We're gonna do things wrong. The accessibility on the site is not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but it's something that I don't ignore. And it's like, oh, I know that there is a faction of our user base that uses screen readers, and I need to do my due diligence to ensure that

JUSTIN:

Right.

ANDY:

They can do that. And, like, yeah, you can look at it of like, oh, great. Now there's a whole nother thing that I need to learn. And it's like, well, yeah, you signed up for this. And I think this doesn't just apply to ADA accessibility.

ANDY:

It also applies to white fragility and it applies to so many other things of just like, can you have an ounce of empathy, please? Please.

R.B.:

It's a tall

ANDY:

order, Dan. It's a

R.B.:

tall order. No. Not allowed. Not allowed. Not at these institutions.

R.B.:

I'm thinking about ways to kind of, like, curtail us into a nice little wrap up for this small bite. I wanna go back to something that I know you mentioned as a way to kind of put a put a bow on this. And I'm thinking about you kind of talking about how by digging into features of enterprise, which is this big grandiose tool that you have built for us over the course of 8 years to make make things happen so that we don't have a new registration tool every conference so that the submission process is relatively consistent so that we have archives of information, all the things we didn't have before 2016, which are very, very important for a nonprofit to operate from. I think about you saying that you kind of see these little glimmers of early, you know, 2015 Andy web developer, and that in the same way that the tech tells a story about, our organization and our programs, it in many ways tells a story about Andy as a a web developer and a tech guru. So I want you to think about 2015 Andy.

R.B.:

Right? And it's 2015 Andy sitting in a room with 2024 Andy who's talking about all of their lessons extracted from building and being so deeply intimately involved with this enterprise project. What are, like, 2 or 3 things that you really want up and coming Andy, tech developer, to hear from someone like you if they're sitting in a room in this big giant fancy conference hall full of web developers? Absorb. Absorb.

R.B.:

Absorb

ANDY:

other people's thoughts and philosophies, and web is ever changing. So like you need to do your best to keep on top of it, because if you're not absorbing, you're not learning and you're not growing. And like that's crucial to becoming an expert, which is what I did in 2015 to like get to now. But I, I do think that the reminders that mistakes happen, you can learn from them and move on an app doesn't need to be perfect Just as you, the human are growing and maturing over time, the app can as well. So I guess I want this talk to be like, you have permission to change your mind.

ANDY:

You have permission to learn and grow. And it does not need to be the idealized, perfect way to solve a problem based on some old dead white guys view of programming from years ago. Be inquisitive, grow, etcetera, etcetera. Oh, right. Put a bow on it?

R.B.:

It it puts something. It puts something about it. I'm still I'm I think I'm still at the, you know, rocket science being a a point in which tech can be life or death. Anyway, well, this has been really enlightening for me just like, obviously, we, you know, work together on the tech tool. I think that there's some really awesome golden nuggets here for you to maybe latch on to to think about how to flesh out this proposal, but just like other ways for us to maybe package and continue to encourage and engage folks around, like, what does it mean to build any kinds of systems or processes or tools that are accountable to to community?

R.B.:

That's been a major takeaway for me. So is there any, like, last truly quick quips you wanna say before I close us off with this recording today?

ANDY:

No. I think, I mean, I, I know I talked a lot about tech stuff, but I still think it is applicable for a lot wider of an audience. Absolutely. And just like a general how to get stuff done with empathy. Maybe that's the talk title.

ANDY:

How to get shit done with empathy.

R.B.:

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