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NET Society is unraveling the latest in digital art, crypto, AI, and tech. Join us for fresh insights and bold perspectives as we tap into wild, thought-provoking conversations. By: Derek Edwards (glitch marfa / collab+currency), Chris Furlong (starholder, LAO + Flamingo DAO), and Aaaron Wright & Priyanka Desai (Tribute Labs)
00;00;15;27 - 00;00;17;07
Aaron
Hey.
00;00;17;10 - 00;00;18;18
Aaron
We're talking NFTs.
00;00;18;22 - 00;00;34;27
Pri
Hell, yeah. Let's talk NFT. We have a special guest with us. We have red beer, aka Benny. What do you like to go by, Red beard? I feel like I call you Red beard, but then, like, people call you Benny. And I've also heard Benny red beard.
00;00;35;03 - 00;00;47;06
Redbeard
I feel like Benny. Benny is fine. I think Red beard is my adopted name at this point, but actually the closest people in my life, funny enough to call me Benjamin.
00;00;47;09 - 00;00;51;10
Pri
Well, okay, let's call you Benjamin. Benjamin's on the call today. Yeah.
00;00;51;17 - 00;00;54;11
Chris
Good old Rb.
00;00;54;13 - 00;01;00;14
Redbeard
You know, it's it's my parents and my wife. My good friends. They all call me Benjamin.
00;01;00;16 - 00;01;01;28
Pri
And the pod.
00;01;02;00 - 00;01;05;04
Redbeard
Now, there you go. Now, you're the first to do it in Web3.
00;01;05;06 - 00;01;06;12
Pri
Yeah. Let's go.
00;01;06;14 - 00;01;08;25
Aaron
Well, we got we got Basel coming.
00;01;08;26 - 00;01;20;23
Aaron
We got some new work coming out, which is exciting. I'm looking forward to kind of seeing that all get displayed. I saw some new stuff from from William upon which I'm excited about. But how are we feeling about everything?
00;01;20;25 - 00;01;33;02
Redbeard
Well, first of all, I'm excited to be on the show. I feel like I've made it to the big leagues now, so I have to, like, do I have to watch what I say on this podcast or I'm allowed to, like, just let it loose?
00;01;33;06 - 00;01;34;14
Pri
No, let let it rest.
00;01;34;17 - 00;01;35;06
Aaron
Let it rip.
00;01;35;12 - 00;01;38;12
Pri
You can be as uncensored and unfiltered as you want.
00;01;38;13 - 00;01;40;03
Redbeard
Okay, then this is a safe.
00;01;40;04 - 00;01;52;23
Redbeard
This is a safe space. Okay. Yeah. So I'm going to start off by telling you guys I'm just I'm in the bathtub right now. So I hope you're okay with that, because I don't have a lot of time to take baths. So this was like the hour that I had. So you're going to share that moment with me?
00;01;52;25 - 00;01;54;10
Redbeard
Why we do the podcast.
00;01;54;11 - 00;01;54;24
Aaron
Great.
00;01;54;24 - 00;01;58;06
Aaron
Thanks for the visual. I'm sure our listeners appreciate it.
00;01;58;11 - 00;02;01;29
Pri
This this is an hour podcast, so the water might get kind of cold. Just.
00;02;02;02 - 00;02;04;03
Redbeard
Yeah, I'll probably get out in the middle and.
00;02;04;03 - 00;02;05;02
Redbeard
Then.
00;02;05;05 - 00;02;06;17
Redbeard
Get dressed, but okay.
00;02;06;18 - 00;02;07;14
Pri
Okay, cool.
00;02;07;21 - 00;02;29;05
Redbeard
Yeah. I don't know where you guys want to start. You tell me. Yeah. Basil's coming up. Yeah, I'm very excited for this time around. This is the third one. As you know, I'm more of just somebody who's sort of helping out behind the scenes with Eli and the crew there. Noah. But, you know, each Basil, I think has been very different than the last one for zero ten.
00;02;29;05 - 00;02;51;19
Redbeard
And I think this one is going to be extremely different. Ten the ones that we had in Miami and Hong Kong, I think with Trevor being the guest curator, it's it's it's I wouldn't say I would say it's it's different in a way that it feels a little bit more institutional or a little bit more conversation less, you know, pomp and circumstance sort of thing.
00;02;51;19 - 00;03;18;28
Redbeard
So I think I'm nervous because I think the crowd there is way tougher in the Miami crowd. And the Hong Kong crowd were very excited and showed up and were there. I think people will show up, but I'm also, you know, there's a part of me that like, I don't really care what they have to say, but also I don't want it to be like I don't mind negativity because I think friction is actually what makes our community grow.
00;03;18;28 - 00;03;38;25
Redbeard
So on one hand I'm like, if they hate it, it's fine. I think it's more I just don't want people to ignore it. That that's more my fear. Like, it just people just don't pay attention to it because that that would make me feel like, hey, like there's a lot to see here. So I'm more interested in people taking notice, liking it or not, that that's fine with me.
00;03;38;25 - 00;03;40;19
Redbeard
It's just the presence of it.
00;03;40;19 - 00;03;46;05
Chris
A lot of uncertainty is the specter of continental digital art looms over you in the bathtub, Benny?
00;03;46;06 - 00;03;46;29
Redbeard
Yeah.
00;03;47;01 - 00;04;04;06
Redbeard
No, I think I think I don't. I mean, I think I'm pretty clear, like, I'm. I don't have a certainty about digital art. I wouldn't be very clear. Like, I, I am a believer that this is going to happen. What we believe in, in this North star, in this sort of like version of I believe we're in a movement.
00;04;04;06 - 00;04;24;20
Redbeard
I said this at, at, you know, NSC Lisbon, that John Karp shout out who did an incredible job over there. The movement is happening, but we have to make sure we move in order for the movement to happen. So we can't really stick around to do nothing. So I don't think it's uncertainty, uncertainty of like, what we're doing is right, or the artists are right or we're on the right track.
00;04;24;20 - 00;04;52;00
Redbeard
All of that I believe in. I think it's more I don't want us to create a movement. And then there's like three people, three collectors and three artists. I think we have this unique opportunity where we can have multiple artists and multiple patrons. And that hasn't happened really in most art movements or Renaissance since that they've had it's usually like the top people, and then you never hear from the people that helped build it.
00;04;52;00 - 00;05;20;21
Redbeard
But I think with the technology of provenance and social media, like the proof is here. So it's like kind of like if you think about how many artists and collectors walked in and out of Warhol Studio from the years of 1965 to 1972 and are literally forgot the history versus in our culture. That can't happen because it's all on chain and it's all somewhere in the internet.
00;05;20;23 - 00;05;27;19
Redbeard
So I think that I don't have uncertainty that we're going to make it. We will. I'm just uncertain that we're going to do it the right way.
00;05;27;21 - 00;05;31;00
Aaron
Are you saying, wag me, Benny? I'm always wearing me.
00;05;31;02 - 00;05;31;28
Pri
Yeah, but yeah.
00;05;32;01 - 00;05;35;10
Redbeard
I, I, I don't know if you know this. I invented wag me.
00;05;35;15 - 00;05;37;02
Aaron
Wait, what?
00;05;37;04 - 00;05;37;11
Redbeard
Yeah.
00;05;37;13 - 00;05;37;16
Aaron
I.
00;05;37;16 - 00;05;38;21
Redbeard
Was.
00;05;38;23 - 00;05;39;20
Pri
Actually, I was that.
00;05;39;26 - 00;05;57;05
Redbeard
Yeah. I was in a hot tub with snow, and I was trying to say something else, and he heard wag me. And then it just kind of blew up from there. Squiggles and wag me were were correlated for history. I don't know if you know that, but that's not a true story. But I just made it up. Right now.
00;05;57;06 - 00;06;01;17
Chris
It's about to say, Derek, can we fact check this is this is kind of like I have the I.
00;06;01;20 - 00;06;11;10
Derek
Have not I hadn't heard that one, but I can't believe it. If if I do know there are some legendary hot tub sessions between between those guys. So the.
00;06;11;12 - 00;06;15;04
Aaron
Story there's lots of talks. Yeah, a lot of talks.
00;06;15;06 - 00;06;32;01
Redbeard
Well, I do feel like I don't know if you heard my whole theory on this, so I, I want to be miniaturized to a tiny little thing, and I want to be put back into my wife's womb, well, back, because I was never in my wife's womb. But I want to like I want to live in a womb for like a day.
00;06;32;02 - 00;06;35;09
Redbeard
Because just hear me out for a second. There's it was like.
00;06;35;10 - 00;06;36;25
Aaron
I don't know where we're going here, Benny.
00;06;36;26 - 00;06;57;03
Redbeard
No, no, just hear me out. You're fed all the time. It's this warm place. You just got to sit there. There's no technology. You got to think you're getting these incredible, like, brain cells, like, just pushed into. I just feel like we need to return to the womb in order to figure out how this all works better.
00;06;57;04 - 00;07;02;07
Aaron
It sounds exactly like crypto. Twitter. Isn't that the womb that we all came from? Yeah.
00;07;02;10 - 00;07;04;12
Redbeard
Pretty much. We were birthed from there.
00;07;04;13 - 00;07;09;18
Derek
Sigmund Freud would have a field day with Benny. That's a there's a lot to unpack in that one. Yeah.
00;07;09;19 - 00;07;11;02
Redbeard
We would have got along very well.
00;07;11;02 - 00;07;30;26
Derek
There you go. So. So besides being a seafaring creature and besides the return to the womb. Benny, what are your thoughts on what's working with with crypto art right now? What do you wish would work better? You mentioned you. You'd love to see the right kind of sequencing happen. What is the right sequencing look like to you?
00;07;30;28 - 00;08;06;11
Redbeard
It's a tough question. I mean, look, I'm I don't know, all the cancers. Honestly. I'm trying to do the best I can and make a lot of it up as we go. With that said, I think all of us are because this is so new to everybody. Look, I love the fact that we have incredible artists who are getting a lot of recognition and sales, but we desperately need more buyers, and we desperately need not just buyers, but we desperately need contributors for people who are going to help build this ecosystem.
00;08;06;11 - 00;08;31;15
Redbeard
So a lot of times, I think that our answer is is, okay, just buy an art from a, you know, an emerging artist. I hate that word, but we'll just use it for now. But there's other things to do. There's sponsoring artists and residency programs. There's, you know, sometimes artists can't even afford to pay for like, trips to different locations to be with other artists or do things like the Lumen Prize.
00;08;31;15 - 00;08;53;15
Redbeard
So like this year, like I sponsored like everybody who wanted to pay for the lumen prize, you know, couldn't afford it. Like, I think we forget to see that sometimes $200 is a lot for artists, I think. I just wish we had a better ecosystem, which I think we are getting there. We're all artists, have the support that people has, that Sam has an ex-cop.
00;08;53;15 - 00;09;13;23
Redbeard
He has. And I think that or Kim and others, you know, I don't want this to be like I said before, you know, there's always going to be artists that might be ahead of everybody else. But we do need to, like, foster something because I think that's what makes it so special. So I think we went through this horrible cycle where things just collapsed, right.
00;09;13;24 - 00;09;38;05
Redbeard
We all were through it. We all are down. If you're still here and you're still either even if you're buying art, supporting art, whatever, you're clearly here because you believe in something. So I think is going right, is that if I said to anybody five years ago that we would have zero ten Toledo Lock, MoMA, you know, some traditional art buyers starting to come in heavy that we have articles written about us.
00;09;38;05 - 00;10;01;14
Redbeard
I don't think anybody would have believed or said that that was going to happen, but I would say that I just want to caution that as much as it is exciting, that is, we can't change our stripes of who we are like we have to be. We have to be unapologetic that we are misfits, weirdos, degenerates. That this art is different than our community is different, that we are on chain in a lot of ways.
00;10;01;14 - 00;10;23;13
Redbeard
And that we can't, we can't we can't be sorry for that. And I think if we're going to be barbarians at the gate, then they have we have to work with them, but they have to learn to play with our rules as well, just the same way they're asking us to play with their rules. So what I think is wish could be better is more of the support of, like the sort of emerging artists.
00;10;23;13 - 00;10;46;07
Redbeard
And then I would say what I think is working well is probably this is is really the culture of the fact that we're not dead. I mean, I don't know how else to say that, because truly, if if you look at it like every other sort of I've been through crypto pretty much every cycle, actually, every cycle, the meme coin cycle, the, the, you know, ICOs, whatever, all of those.
00;10;46;13 - 00;10;55;03
Redbeard
I mean, the tech is still there, but like, it's not really the same anymore, but NFT and digital art really haven't gone anywhere.
00;10;55;04 - 00;11;16;00
Aaron
I mean, that's that's what gives me the most confidence just being through a bunch of cycles. It like it still reminds me of very early Bitcoin. It's just like there's a lot of steely eyed people that are just here because they like it. So I'm super excited about that. I think, you know, just to like maybe pull out what what you were saying Derek it's not where do we go from here?
00;11;16;03 - 00;11;35;11
Aaron
And I hear like that we want more more buyers, you know, want to support new creators. I think that's all great. I think the looming question is just like, how do you compete with this? I saw on that's AI, right? Like that, just attracting all the attention. And that is like how the game has kind of changed. Some kind of curious what folks think about that.
00;11;35;11 - 00;12;00;17
Pri
I actually want to write a piece on this and I might do it next week. Actually, I've been thinking about this. I talk to you a little bit about this, Aaron. The AI world has an entirely different art movement happening. I'm not saying that there's not a JSON around, you know, our NFT core entity artists and, you know, a lot of those artists, there's a little bit of overlap.
00;12;00;17 - 00;12;27;00
Pri
However, there are completely different artists. The Nvidia Nvidia has its own artist program. Anthropic is bringing a ton of artists to do residencies there. There's going to be about a $40 billion windfall going into philanthropy, many of which is going some, some, some material amount will go into not for profit and art foundations, even some even smaller things like the AI Psychosis Summit in New York.
00;12;27;00 - 00;13;03;12
Pri
I'm helping quasi potentially curate this, like emerging art artist kind of show with just people using AI tools. He's not even trying to target artists. He just wants people who could be artists that are just using AI tools. And so I think that there's like this parallel universe that's happening in digital art that's like so outside of our eco system, part of it is like, you know, NFT is just sort of like a joke word to a lot of those people, or they just don't know about it, but they are playing with the tools that create and generate digital artwork.
00;13;03;13 - 00;13;28;16
Pri
They just haven't thought about what what container to put it on or sell it in any capacity. And obviously NFTs are the container like us talking about NFTs is like me talking about a painting, but talking about it from the context of a canvas like it doesn't make any sense. And so I, I'm rambling a little bit, but like there I have noticed and like talked to many people in this like other world of digital art.
00;13;28;16 - 00;13;43;11
Pri
And I don't know what the best format is to, like, bring them over. Or maybe we go to them and be like, hey, like, you should put this on here so it lives on chain forever. And like, you don't even need to sell it. But for your own, you know, posterity. It's good to have this thing living on chain.
00;13;43;12 - 00;14;04;07
Pri
I've thought a little bit about that. I think, you know, I've seen a lot of our AI creators from our space move over into that world a little bit. But my feeling is that growth around AI and the AI art world is only going to continue. It just has no relevancy in our world right now. I'll stop there, but I don't know if anyone else has noticed that or had some experience with that community at all.
00;14;04;07 - 00;14;27;10
Derek
I have a lot of thoughts on this and I think they originate from so. So I think crypto are one of it's one of the reasons why I think it was such a special moment in time is because it was really responding to this idea around digital abundance. It's like, okay, we have a technology that now exists that can act as a counterweight to this idea that anything could be readily copied or into infinity.
00;14;27;12 - 00;14;48;26
Derek
It could be right clicked and saved. You have a free or a JPEG that could be reproduced over and over and over again. And we now have this countermeasure, which is like this idea of a blockchain. And it's a 24 over seven database structure. The objects can be inherently tied or tethered to to an object on chain that provides that linkage.
00;14;48;26 - 00;15;10;21
Derek
And then from that, we started seeing people start to explore blockchains broadly as as a separate medium around programmability, around interoperability, around entropy. So like this is one of the reasons why our blocks took off. The idea of like, okay, it's no longer just the blockchain as the medium or as the recording format. It's blockchain is the medium.
00;15;10;21 - 00;15;30;25
Derek
It's like the parent seed relationship between a transaction hash and an on chain algorithm. And I think that's the lens by which I view this stuff. And it's one of the reasons why I've been so intrigued about AI art is because it's native ontology is actually, like totally different than this, like object centered permanence of what crypto art was.
00;15;30;26 - 00;15;58;18
Derek
Right? So the AI art that I've really been following for the last year and a half, two years from folks that are hacking at the edges, it's it's there's something about the process and the inference and the model and the exploration around these models and finding the edges of them. And, and, and it's ephemerality that I think is actually been more interesting for artists to explore, rather than some sort of like, permanent object that exists.
00;15;58;18 - 00;16;14;15
Derek
I think there's something really interesting about that. Like, like it might not collide like these two things might not actually collide in the same way because like the way AI artists want to explore the design space is not necessarily the same way that artists in crypto wanted to explore the design space.
00;16;14;16 - 00;16;49;00
Chris
I feel that take to it's like flows versus objects in a way that, you know, I think one thing crypto art like, sort of structurally puts itself around is like this object mentality because of the 721 as the file format and as an anchor. And then like it's adjacent to the collectible market, you know, even the most quote unquote avant of artists are popping up on my timeline as trading cards today.
00;16;49;00 - 00;17;14;28
Chris
And so, like, there is a gravitational well around crypto art that tends to constrain and package it into this object based format and the sort of mindset of collectability traits, like certain things that are just very bounding, whereas AI just writ large, right, is about opening a whole new surface area. It's about tearing a hole in the sky.
00;17;14;28 - 00;17;23;15
Chris
And it may just be that we're too early to understand how how it eventually gets packaged. Or they may be two completely different things.
00;17;23;16 - 00;17;46;09
Derek
Yeah, I think that's that's I think that's the outstanding question right now. And I could make arguments. I could make an argument like what pre mentioned, which is like somehow these things come together like I think a great example of the exploration of AI and it's whatever. And it's touching. Conceptual nature was the Monet example from where it's like the exercise was produced.
00;17;46;10 - 00;18;24;16
Derek
The interaction points were expressed. You know, the the art was the, the actual exploration of this thing that was happening at the network level. And then there's a way to kind of like funnel that into an object that could be recorded permanently and sold. That's possible. I think we will see examples like that again and again. To please point, I'll also say this idea of many AI artists not wanting to explore some sort of funnel into record keeping would be in line with what I'm seeing around how artists are exploring the design space today, and it might end up enfolding in a completely different direction that looks more like dance, which is ephemeral, or performance
00;18;24;16 - 00;18;35;07
Derek
art, which is ephemeral. And that's okay. It just might not be something that you could package up and sell and that might that might be more inauthenticity with the ontology of the form.
00;18;35;08 - 00;18;44;20
Pri
I guess that's fair. I guess one thing is like, are we limiting our self by the 721 it being an object? Like could an agent or a workflow be an NFT.
00;18;44;21 - 00;18;45;20
Aaron
Or a system.
00;18;45;20 - 00;19;08;01
Pri
Or a system or, you know, I mean, technically a performance art could be, but you know, you don't want to necessarily put a, you know, hole in a square, whatever that saying is. Like. There's no reason to, like, force it. But are we are we also limiting our ability to think about like, what an NFT could be by these object constraints that we're speaking of?
00;19;08;02 - 00;19;33;21
Aaron
I mean, technically, and with the IRC 8004, when you register it, you do get an NFT. So there is pieces of that pre already in the crypto system. Yeah, yeah. I mean we saw that right in like during the last cycle. I mean there was a couple artists I think some that like even glimmer Dao collected that were more like, you know, entire systems or worlds, right, that were getting kind of embodied into an NFT.
00;19;33;22 - 00;19;37;11
Aaron
So I don't know. I mean, it's a good question. I don't have the answer to that one.
00;19;37;12 - 00;19;49;29
Pri
Yeah. I mean, it's one to meson maybe. Yeah. Sorry. I mean, I'm happy to to also talk about that because it's like there's a lot to talk about. Also happy to to go back to like what is our ecosystem. I think maybe obviously these are like related concepts.
00;19;49;29 - 00;20;07;02
Redbeard
But just to go back, I just want to give a shout out to AI psychosis. That was one of the best events I've been to in a very long time. It was like the line was out the door, quasi mott. And that whole group is just, I talk about a group to support and give them money to build things.
00;20;07;03 - 00;20;25;24
Redbeard
I just truly feel like they understand that very well. So I'm just want to say that out loud because I was super, super impressed with what they were building. Like, really, this if that is sort of the direction we're going to go in, I'm, I'm pretty psyched about this movement.
00;20;25;25 - 00;20;33;12
Pri
Yeah, maybe, maybe there is a little overlap. Maybe it just isn't, you know. But they're definitely could be a little bit more there.
00;20;33;13 - 00;20;59;05
Redbeard
Well, every artist, every every artist that was showing there I pretty much own art from. So there's definitely overlap. I think it's just a matter of I think we're we wired our brains to think that everything that has to be digital art has to be an NFT. While I appreciate on chain art a lot specifically like why I love things like squiggles and others, but that doesn't always mean that that's the only way of creating craft for this next art movement.
00;20;59;05 - 00;21;16;11
Redbeard
And I think that once we zoom out and part of the problem is because we keep calling things digital art, and I think it's going to be somebody 50 years from now who's studying what we're all doing here to give this sort of time period a name. But I don't know if it's digital art is the best name to call it.
00;21;16;12 - 00;21;37;20
Redbeard
Like, I know Matt Dry Hirst wants to call protocol Art somebody. So he's talking to you, said post-human. I don't know what it is, but I think it's a little bit more of a mix than we realize. And I think once we do that and we kind of realize that we're all sort of working on the same sort of North Star, then I think we start to realize that this is one larger movement than one singular thing.
00;21;37;21 - 00;22;00;23
Chris
Yeah, that's fair. And I think only time will tell, because whatever ends up being the defining or the thing of importance that future generations look back on, they're going to be the ones to, to give the name. It's going to be indie sleaze type moment just, you know, for an art movement. They'll just invent something out a whole cloth, a word that hasn't even existed yet.
00;22;00;25 - 00;22;20;09
Chris
Whatever comes after the Zoomers and their post literate vocabulary, unfortunately, will be the ones to to name this. Can we switch gears for a second and return to tub based technology? That's sure. Red beard. You're clearly a man about tubs. Yeah, deprivation tanks.
00;22;20;10 - 00;22;41;13
Redbeard
I have, so I love flow tanks. I started doing them about four years ago and I could tell you, like if you do them, if I do them without shrooms, it's not as good. If I do them shrooms, like, I'm. I could sit in it and I stare up and I this the universe opens up like there's this wormhole.
00;22;41;14 - 00;23;06;16
Redbeard
And I could see like the stars I am. I am a firm believer that deprivation tanks. There's a great movie, actually, with William Hurt that came out years ago. I can't remember the name of it, but where the whole idea is that he goes to the deprivation tank and like, he could, like, turn back his, like, you know, his whole body to become like a caveman.
00;23;06;20 - 00;23;14;12
Redbeard
It was really good movie. Trust me on this. But yeah, I love deprivation tanks. I think that was the question, right?
00;23;14;14 - 00;23;14;26
Chris
Yes.
00;23;14;27 - 00;23;16;03
Derek
The answer was the.
00;23;16;04 - 00;23;18;07
Derek
Answer was infinitely better than the question.
00;23;18;08 - 00;23;21;12
Redbeard
Okay.
00;23;21;14 - 00;23;22;02
Redbeard
This is.
00;23;22;04 - 00;23;24;13
Chris
My job as a host to set the guest. I know.
00;23;24;14 - 00;23;26;20
Derek
I know, I know, this is I like.
00;23;26;21 - 00;23;28;09
Derek
I like the answer.
00;23;28;11 - 00;23;46;01
Redbeard
I mean, this is where I do a lot of my thinking. So I contemplate the world in bathtubs and I contemplate the future of art in that tubs. I don't, I don't maybe there's there's a great also another great movie. Sorry. And that'll bring up movies. It was called Big Fish and it was about this guy.
00;23;46;02 - 00;23;47;13
Chris
Big fish is fantastic.
00;23;47;14 - 00;23;49;21
Pri
Love big fish. Big fish fan.
00;23;49;23 - 00;23;59;24
Redbeard
Yeah. So I think that's pretty much my life. That's what my wife and kids think. I showed them the movie and they're like, yeah, that's pretty much you. So I think that's how I'm living. My life is like big fish.
00;24;00;02 - 00;24;06;04
Chris
Do you have any recommendations for oversize deprivation tanks in the NYC area?
00;24;06;05 - 00;24;27;03
Redbeard
Oh my God, Chris, you should. You and Aaron and I should go instead of a met game. There's this place called Aries or ERA or. I don't know what it's called. It's like a air. Yes, but it's spelled. It's not spelled air. It's spelled like air. It's like fancy way of spelling air. But they have a giant float tank.
00;24;27;07 - 00;24;46;01
Redbeard
It's insane. It's like a it's like a pool that's just a float tank. And you just. And the crazy thing is you put your head in and there's like, the noise is like, because it's underwater. Gives you like, the sense of, like calmness. You just close your eyes, like, I, like, fall asleep on it. We should go together.
00;24;46;03 - 00;25;00;26
Redbeard
I mean pre you could come also. It's this is not just a man's thing. I'm very big believer that we should be equal. And the flow tanks are the most equal place that men and women could be in together, in my opinion.
00;25;01;03 - 00;25;02;06
Pri
Let's do it.
00;25;02;08 - 00;25;09;21
Chris
Okay, good. Good. Looking out. I've tried these a couple times and my problem is like I don't fit in them. No. They've destroyed the whole illusion.
00;25;09;22 - 00;25;26;07
Redbeard
Yeah, yeah. This one, you'll fit in. This is. This is like. It's like a pool. It's great. It'll it'll be a good first step. And then you could go downstairs to go to a hot tub. And here's a crazy thing. This place has, like six hot tubs. It's like, do you want a hot tub that's 102 degrees. Do you want a hot tub that's like 105 or 120?
00;25;26;07 - 00;25;32;15
Redbeard
And they have this one that's like 40 degrees. That's like freezing. Place is amazing. I want to live there.
00;25;32;15 - 00;25;38;01
Chris
For the record, I'm one of those guys who gets bored at Spa Castle in an hour.
00;25;38;03 - 00;25;42;06
Redbeard
But you haven't. You haven't. You never came with me, so I could. I could change that.
00;25;42;08 - 00;25;48;07
Derek
Yeah. You need a good conversationalist for for stuff like that. These are exactly group activities. Yeah.
00;25;48;15 - 00;25;51;07
Chris
All right, let's let's return back on top. Like I've.
00;25;51;09 - 00;25;52;05
Redbeard
Sorry.
00;25;52;07 - 00;25;54;29
Chris
No, no, you. Thank you. This is valuable, Alpha.
00;25;55;00 - 00;26;16;01
Pri
All right, back to back to the topic, though, because obviously you're thinking about the future of digital art. There are a lot of flashpoints. I feel like there was, like, a lot with that. I wouldn't call it, like, a debate, but like, conversation between myself, Alejandro, Joanna. A bunch of people kind of jumped. We had like a pod aftermath.
00;26;16;01 - 00;26;22;18
Pri
Unfortunately, Joanna couldn't come. I'm kind of curious, like what your takeaway was from that conversation a few weeks ago.
00;26;22;22 - 00;26;49;28
Redbeard
As everybody knows, I sometimes get a little emotional, so from a good place. But my first reaction, which I'm working on trying, is to not get as crazed. But when I saw all those things, the truth is, the first part of it is that I love the conversation. I think that we do not have enough conversation in this space, and it's nice to see that there's at least some kind of conversation happening.
00;26;49;28 - 00;27;03;04
Redbeard
I also feel that there's not enough we need like a Jerry salt from digital art. I just feel like we're we're too much sometimes ra ra ra and like, oh yeah, I'm your best friend. Like, you can still be best friends and disagree on things. And I think.
00;27;03;04 - 00;27;25;23
Pri
I do feel that just to jump in, I feel like there's very little criticism. Like it kind of drives me nuts because like, and I get it. I have thoughts, I don't share them because I don't want to upset people. So I like just keep them to myself. But like a part of it is like we're so connected through Twitter and we see everyone at these conferences all the time, like it's almost like, and I like everyone personally, but it's like sometimes I don't know, it's like hard to say.
00;27;25;23 - 00;27;41;21
Pri
You don't necessarily like that art isn't your taste or like that. You don't necessarily like like something. It's a it's a really weird thing here where like, no one is actually giving their opinions publicly, and I can't tell if it's because it's like a 24 over seven stream, but maybe all or maybe the art world like that too.
00;27;41;21 - 00;27;42;03
Redbeard
But no.
00;27;42;09 - 00;27;45;08
Pri
It's very little criticism. Sorry. Go ahead.
00;27;45;09 - 00;28;02;18
Redbeard
No, no, I think you're right. I think it's because we're such a small group and it's. You never want to hurt people's feelings, especially when you're such a small group. If we were larger that it would be okay sort of thing. But so I think that that I was very happy that there was discourse, there were certain things I didn't.
00;28;02;21 - 00;28;16;01
Redbeard
I disagreed with that. Inevitably, after having conversations, Derek has a way of, you know, when I disagree with him, making me feel like I was wrong the whole time, which is so annoying, but because all I want to do is fight with him and then he makes it impossible to fight with him.
00;28;16;01 - 00;28;21;21
Derek
But I have no idea what you're talking about, dude. I'm just. I'm just trying to, you know.
00;28;21;21 - 00;28;39;02
Redbeard
Exactly. He's. So he says, this is how it works. See? He just did it right. Now. Do you see that? He's like a master at this. But, But in all seriousness, like, I talked to Derek after Joanna, you and a bunch of other people I was talking to. And in truth, I think everybody had very valid points.
00;28;39;02 - 00;28;57;05
Redbeard
I think my biggest takeaway that I was just frustrated with was two things was like, you know, I actually think what you said was extremely well informed and brilliant. And I thought what Joanna said was great, and I actually thought the pod was a huge success. I really liked it a lot. I sent it to everybody. I was like, they should listen.
00;28;57;05 - 00;29;27;10
Redbeard
And I listened to all your pods. This one particular loved, I think the two things that I was just a little frustrated about, and it was really less to do with the pod in general. And I said this. Everybody said, I understand that there's a feeling of like there's not a lot of innovation going on, but I do think that that's an unfair thing to say when there really is a lot of people who are trying to do things here, and I don't want us to get caught up in some of the things that maybe are true about how we do need to be.
00;29;27;11 - 00;29;41;18
Redbeard
We need to push more, and we need to be like, that's that's not interesting enough. But at the same time, that doesn't mean that really good things aren't happening or we're trying things to happen, you know, like like doesn't mean Basil is always going to be a success, but we're going to try, like at least it's something we're trying.
00;29;41;19 - 00;29;58;10
Redbeard
You know, it doesn't mean, you know, the show in Toledo is a huge success, but they're trying. It doesn't mean that our artists are essentially creating the best things, but at least they're putting their effort into doing that. And I think that there's a part of this community that is still present, really putting that effort in. I think we just have to recognize that.
00;29;58;10 - 00;30;19;29
Redbeard
So I don't want it to be. I guess I was just saying I don't want to be totally doom or gloom, like, hey, we're not moving when we are, and that doesn't mean we can't move more. I totally agree with that. We should push more, but it doesn't mean that we're not innovating and that just because also sometimes people doesn't don't like certain innovations, that type of art doesn't mean that it's not innovating or experiment.
00;30;20;00 - 00;30;45;07
Redbeard
I should really say experimenting like that's a better word. So I do think that people are experimenting in this space, and we need to be a little bit more positive and focus on those things while still being able to push people to do it more. And the second thing that was frustrating to me, and I was very honest with Alejandro, is that, look, I, I am totally for this idea of like, it's really hard for us to move like, I mean, like in all seriousness, there really is no cabal.
00;30;45;08 - 00;31;06;16
Redbeard
And I think I was just a little frustrated because the way Alejandro wrote that was kind of like, well, unless certain people decide to move artists here, then the moves. And honestly, I just think that's a load of shit, if I'm being honest. Sorry, you told me I could rip it here. Like it really just is nonsense. Like, you look at the sales that have happened recently, like you look at Jules.
00;31;06;16 - 00;31;28;24
Redbeard
There's no cabal selling Jules. Jules made 150 phone calls to different collectors to try to explain to him his artwork. It's just not true. And there's a lot of sell outs recently. If you start looking like nuclear samurai, like, he put a whole PHP collection that sold 10,000. So I think that we, we tend to sometimes fall into this trap of making excuses about things.
00;31;28;24 - 00;31;51;01
Redbeard
And, you know, no offense, Alejandro, but like, you know, he does the same exact thing when it comes to, you know, the platform that he works with, who I happen to be very close friends with and love them. But, you know, Alejandro is just institution. And Alejandro pushes artists all the time to sell. So I, I just feel like we're going to eat ourselves alive.
00;31;51;01 - 00;32;13;01
Redbeard
We constantly fall back on this idea that there's like people with holding like, you know, strings and, you know, they're treating everybody like Pinocchio here. Like, I just don't I if they if that's happening. Well, I'm not part of that cabal. And I hope maybe I can be, because then I can move my bags up, which would be nice, but, like, it's just it's just really not the case.
00;32;13;01 - 00;32;28;18
Redbeard
And I know people want to believe it's true, but it's just not true. And I think those are my two frustrations. But my once again, just wanted to say I am so glad the conversation happened. We really, really need to do that more. In my opinion.
00;32;28;19 - 00;32;54;21
Pri
I'm too. Yeah, that is interesting. The point I guess, about just like, like this idea that whatever specific artists get moved, I think one of the things, at least in my piece that maybe would help, you know, maybe contribute to the other side of that conversation is just like the fact that in the state native discourse, part of the reason that some of these artists even became popularized and like big and now we're at zero ten.
00;32;54;21 - 00;33;24;02
Pri
And doing that is because they started just like they were always doing their work. They were like, let's call Tyler Hobbs in an example, low price mints. Yes. That one, I think sold out pretty instantaneously. But like maybe, maybe it's like a maybe this idea of like, oh, it's a cabal is like not the right answer. Maybe it's like a structural issue on how this work is released and networked, and that's actually how you create momentum around a specific artist as opposed to like a few select whatever collectors pumping artists like.
00;33;24;03 - 00;33;33;14
Pri
I actually think it's like a structural thing as opposed to a collector thing. And that's kind of partially what I was trying to say to.
00;33;33;16 - 00;33;54;01
Redbeard
No, no. And I think you're right. Like, I think the answer is like, it's not it's structural in the sense that we don't have enough people who are patrons or buyers in the space. Right. But with that said, you know, if everybody looks at the zero ten roster for the last two times, I mean, there's a lot of artists there that are not even close to those Tyler Hobbs level.
00;33;54;02 - 00;34;13;12
Redbeard
Emily. Emily was there. Nobody said boo, right? She did phenomenally in Hong Kong. Right. But but that doesn't get spoken on timeline. I tried to say these things right, but. So where's the cabal? Has a cabal? No, she fucking works her ass off. Right, Jonas land across from her also did. Well, you asked the average person who's collecting.
00;34;13;12 - 00;34;32;23
Redbeard
They don't know who Jonas Lund is in her space, so I'm just saying, like, they the roster in that sense, if you look at both of those things, this idea that it was like specific best artists that were picked, I think that's overshadowed by, you know, I just don't think it's reality. And and I think it's overshadowed because people did so well the first time.
00;34;32;23 - 00;34;33;22
Redbeard
But, you know.
00;34;33;22 - 00;34;40;03
Aaron
Benny, can I, can I just happen? Why do you think that's the case? And I think that goes to like the structural point.
00;34;40;04 - 00;34;41;14
Redbeard
Yeah. I don't know.
00;34;41;16 - 00;35;10;21
Aaron
Is the is the work not is it priced at a two premium level. Right. So you can't get that organic community like uplift. I mean that would be one I think there's this is like a multi-threaded problem. And I don't think I don't think at least for me, I didn't I see the experimentation. I think it's great. I think the challenge with the experimentation is it's it's competing in like a different ball game now in our attention economy, which is just, you know, it's AI, right?
00;35;10;22 - 00;35;34;26
Aaron
So like it's got to be super engaging and and on top of that, even like in a timeline, right. Like we know that people, influencers etc., they've just like are continuing to perfect their craft. So it's just a much more dense and competitive attention economy. And so the question I have is like, how do you, you know, how do you attract attention?
00;35;34;27 - 00;35;55;28
Aaron
Because I hear the the desire to like have more collectors, which is great, but I don't know how you can do that if you can't get the distribution. And I think, you know, the NFT ecosystem did get that distribution because they were doing something like fun, novel and interesting. And so I wonder if people just need to be a little bit more bold, right?
00;35;55;29 - 00;36;13;15
Aaron
Like, I think that there was like a swagger that was around and, you know, 2020 to, you know, pick pick your endpoint. And it feels like there's a retrenchment at this point. So it's not this has nothing to do with the creators. I think it is a little bit more structural kind of in nature, at least in part.
00;36;13;16 - 00;36;13;22
Redbeard
Yeah.
00;36;13;22 - 00;36;14;05
Aaron
I.
00;36;14;10 - 00;36;35;00
Redbeard
I think there's a lot of answers there. I think, for instance, with AI, because I cut off before, I think Derek hit it really well in the head. I know if I've heard Derek speak about this before, and I think that point is very valid. I think I have no issue with AI. I'm more inclined to be curious about artists that use AI in the process.
00;36;35;02 - 00;36;55;00
Redbeard
They're doing it almost like they're using a paintbrush. And I think that if we're really patient, I think that the type of art after this sort of AI frenzy dies down a little, where people are going to be more interested in not understanding the plumbing as much of AI because they want to see the the results of it and those artists that use it the best.
00;36;55;00 - 00;37;19;02
Redbeard
Because I do believe AI is we're kind of lied to, we're told like, okay, everybody could use AI, and all of a sudden you could see it on our timeline. All those experts are ICO experts. And then they were meme coin experts and NFT experts. Now they're AI experts. Like it's sort of a grift, right? Because in reality, I would bet you like almost nobody's going to make a app with AI and make $1 billion, right?
00;37;19;04 - 00;37;37;20
Redbeard
They're going to use it's not like it's not like we'll send someone who's who, you know, who's like, you know, had this great idea is going to do it. It's the creators and the, the sort of like the people who needed that extra boost because AI is sort of like this. It's almost using one more percent of our brain or giving us more time back to sleep or giving us more creativity.
00;37;37;20 - 00;38;08;05
Redbeard
But the people who are really creative already are going to use those tools for incredible things. I really believe that, and it's almost as if I think the real revolution of it is not actually this ability to create bigger things and make money off of it that way, but it actually is. The revolution of AI is how it partners with each individual and gives them access more to be, you know, have more, have more, you know, success in the sense of their personal success.
00;38;08;05 - 00;38;28;28
Redbeard
So I think AI is really personal things and not really community based things in a lot of ways. Like for instance, in education, I'm convinced in the next ten years every student will have an AI that they go through kindergarten to 12th grade with, and it's going to access everything they're doing so that by the time they get to like college experience, college choices, the AI is going to be there to give them this.
00;38;28;28 - 00;38;48;29
Redbeard
Assessments and assessments is something that we have a major issue with us, not just in education, but in general in the world, because we can never assess the things that we're doing in order to do better. And I think AI fixes that. So I think with artists that use AI now, the fact that they're using as tools, assessment tools, how to create their crafts better, that that's super interesting to me.
00;38;48;29 - 00;39;15;01
Redbeard
And I think over time that type of art will be very exciting to people rather than the slop that we see. I also, you know, Aaron, like I think you're 100% correct. It's like, look, I said this you offline just, you know, I with Basil, for instance, we need to give artists more time. The last three events, including this one, has this one had a little bit more time, but the more time we give artists to create, instead of rushing them to create things, then the better the art will be.
00;39;15;02 - 00;39;34;22
Redbeard
So like one thing I'm working on right now is this idea that we constantly are asking artists to mint because they need to mint, because they need to make money in order to usually make their best project. So what they're doing is they're not giving you their best work usually, because that's like a step in the direction of something they want to make bigger.
00;39;34;22 - 00;39;58;10
Redbeard
So for me, this is going back to what I said before. We need more patronage. And if you look back in late 1800s all the way to like the late 1980s, something happened in the 90s and 2000 where patronage just completely changed. Galleries changed. It used to be that we invest in artists. It wasn't just buying art, and we would invest in artists to create things and give them the opportunity to create the best art they can.
00;39;58;10 - 00;40;18;13
Redbeard
And I think we need to kind of go backwards a little bit to do that. And I think your right, Aaron, that the price points be where the price points are off because artists are struggling to survive and we're not giving them the outputs in order to do better and to survive by and also create their best art.
00;40;18;13 - 00;40;49;09
Redbeard
So I do think that the price points are a little higher. Like I walked around Basel both times and I'm I'll be very honest, there was there was really good art that was priced way cheaper than a lot of art that we had that wasn't as good. And I think we need to reset a little that way. I understand blue chips will always have their thing and certain artists will always be high, but I think we need to reset a little and come back and be like, hey, we need cheaper mints, we need cheaper or more accessible, I should say, for the average collector to get into and all of those things, if we put
00;40;49;09 - 00;41;04;04
Redbeard
it together, I think if we work really hard on those things, that's where we're going to finally start to see success of like how a movement really moves in a way. So I agree with all of that. And I think we do need to be better. You know, I sorry, I just spoke for 20 minutes.
00;41;04;04 - 00;41;07;06
Chris
There are good points. I feel you're out there. Redbeard.
00;41;07;07 - 00;41;12;04
Redbeard
Sorry. I just wanted someone else to speak. I'm like, I can't be the only one talking to you. Sorry.
00;41;12;07 - 00;41;38;00
Chris
No, no. They are a good point. And, like, especially around the AI stuff, right? Like, it ain't cheap to work in that medium and to work at scale. Look, I'm probably have gone as far as, like, a single slash, you know, very small project can go, like, I've got a six figure budget. I've been at it 11 months now.
00;41;38;01 - 00;42;00;07
Chris
Like, this is all I do in my waking hours, right? But I'm in a position where I can do this. It's a very rarefied position. And so, you know, I do think like you're making some really salient points here around, you know, expectations around strictures. And, you know, it's it's got to be hard, right?
00;42;00;10 - 00;42;18;20
Redbeard
Yeah. I think I think the infrastructure built in place is, is not easy for us to build out like these. It's so funny because we're going back to this idea that you need to buy more tokens in order to make. I think that's the most hilarious thing in the world. And that's all we've been doing is buying tokens.
00;42;18;20 - 00;42;39;12
Redbeard
And I think that there's it is very hard. Look, I, I have stressed and I'll say this, he knows. I've said it to him, I said aloud, I've stressed terrific on many occasions. And I think he will that he's building data land. Data land can't just be an institution to show the data that Rafique collects to make art.
00;42;39;13 - 00;42;59;27
Redbeard
I'm totally fine with that. Actually, I went to see it. It was an incredible space. I have a lot of respect for him in in the effort that he's putting into that. And it's it's really amazing. With that said, the access that he has to these incredible systems to not give that access to other artists would be a shame.
00;42;59;28 - 00;43;30;26
Redbeard
Right. And I think that that's sort of that's something we have to band together. Like we can't build legacies without building the movement first and in building the movement legacies then created. And that means that we need to give access and abilities to every artist or most artists that we can in order to build these things out. So like, for instance, like again, going back to Warhol Warhols, never Warhol without all the artists that worked with him in his, in his, in his studio.
00;43;31;00 - 00;43;49;07
Redbeard
Right. Like all those people he hung out with and and learned from and had those conversations. That's what made him Andy Warhol. And that's what made his legacy and how he built a movement. You know, I think AI is super. It is tough. And we have and I think it'll get cheaper over time and, and figure things out.
00;43;49;07 - 00;44;10;02
Redbeard
But I really, truly believe artists are always the first ones to do things first before everybody else. Like everyone's talking about AI, do current 4D. Okay, we all know him. He was doing AI years ago. He came to my bagel store, a local bagel store, I want to say like probably 5 or 6 years ago and one of his earliest collectors.
00;44;10;02 - 00;44;30;26
Redbeard
And he was showing me like, hey, give me a word. I'm like orange. He's like, give me an artist. Like, I mean, he was doing this so long ago, and from that he's built Hermie. He's like, I mean, with a bunch of other people. And it's like, like artists are like, I'm telling you that the first adopters to the change that's coming culturally, I truly believe that.
00;44;30;26 - 00;44;52;06
Redbeard
So I think that giving them more access to create things with AI will actually unlock a lot of things, which then I think will bring us back a lot of ways to this idea of crypto art and generative art and everything like that. Artists are always inspiring to me is as the most, you know, culturally significant people in the history of the world.
00;44;52;07 - 00;45;02;21
Redbeard
I truly believe that, like you look back politically, technology, everything, there's always the first to kind of, you know, make that statement that change has to happen.
00;45;02;22 - 00;45;20;18
Pri
No, I agree. I mean, I think, you know, our artists esthetics are so they're like in tandem with politics, like so much of I mean, there's so many people who've written about that and thought about that. And like part of the reason I even find digital art so interesting is because it's like the medium and art of our time.
00;45;20;20 - 00;45;41;15
Pri
And it's not like I don't like painting or sculpture, but like, these are mediums that have existed for centuries like this. Digital is on unbalanced, like extremely new and recent. So I guess my one thing and this is like maybe a provocative question, but like part of like where you're like, okay, I think there needs to be more patronage, more people supporting emerging artists.
00;45;41;15 - 00;46;05;10
Pri
And like I get that at the same time. Like, I think the art needs to stand on its own. And if it is very good, I think people would collect it. Like, you know, maybe that's more of like, you know, more of a very market dynamic point of view. But I do think even in this market, if there is something new novel interesting, like clever, I still think people would come out of the woodwork and collect like they're not totally tuned out.
00;46;05;10 - 00;46;11;18
Pri
And if someone flags something interesting, I think there is a group that would buy it.
00;46;11;20 - 00;46;29;17
Redbeard
I can't agree more. I can't agree more. I think you're 100% on target with that. I say that all the time. There's a reason why Kim asks is doing well. Kim is a good fucking artist. That's it. It's not. It's not. Again, it's not a cabal of people who decided Kim astronaut is a good artist. He's a good artist.
00;46;29;17 - 00;46;32;05
Redbeard
So, like, I think that that's 100% true.
00;46;32;11 - 00;47;04;18
Aaron
Yeah. Can I just say that he's a good artist? But if you actually look at how he prices things and distributes them, he has different parts of the market that he hits. And that goes to like some of these like structural points, which I keep on moving back to. I mean, even if you go through the, the, you know, 2021 era, right, or 2020 to 2021 era, I mean, a lot of the like a lot of the work was just it was just distributed at much, much lower prices so that community could be built.
00;47;04;18 - 00;47;24;25
Aaron
And we didn't lean as much on like auction or private sale type models to build attention and distribution. And I just think that that piece is lost and it needs to be balanced with what the artists need to support their work and themselves. Right. And so there's just a gap there. I don't know what, what bridges I but there is.
00;47;24;27 - 00;47;43;16
Redbeard
That category more. I mean, look at the best projects we have in the space. Now, I know people say I'm biased because I love Sam, I am biased. I'm biased about all the artists I love. So you could say whatever you want. But he gave out skulls for free. Kim was so good about his pricing. Squiggles were cheap to mint, punks were basically free.
00;47;43;18 - 00;48;04;15
Redbeard
There's a there's a common thread here that people are not paying attention to, to understand the value of growth in the community, of building your own ecosystem through the idea of attention economy. And I think that I can't agree more. And I've said this to artists a million times. It's like sometimes you have to find a way to make things more, like you said before, more accessible.
00;48;04;15 - 00;48;20;17
Redbeard
And I do think that Kim 100% is art is great. But you're right, it's the mechanisms that he did. And same with Sam. It's like, Sam's like, you got a skull free, then you bought this. Then if you want this, you get this and this and this. And by the way, Beatles every days, they were super cheap at the beginning.
00;48;20;25 - 00;48;47;09
Redbeard
People forget this also at the beginning. Right. So I think, you know, I think there's something about that for sure. And, you know, to go back to connect to that pre what you're saying about patronage, like I agree with you that the arts good people collect. What I'm really talking more about is, is, is that we just need to have we need to be a little bit more in tune to know that we can't build a movement without sort of building infrastructure.
00;48;47;09 - 00;49;24;20
Redbeard
And I think that's what I mean by by maybe more about patronage. It's like, you know, we need these artists and residents programs and there's a lot going on, and they're just asking sometimes for like 2500 bucks or $5,000, and sometimes we're spending $50,000 on a piece. It's like, okay, maybe we should do it this way. And, you know, I, I listen, I applaud people like, I, I'm going to say this and maybe it'll be a little controversial, but I don't I think there's a world where our community would, would have died if Mickey and Allan and now Adam Weitzman and others didn't come along.
00;49;24;21 - 00;49;50;08
Redbeard
I think they saved the space in a lot of ways. And they didn't do it just by buying art. They did it by supporting communities. And I think there's something really interesting about noticing that while the best artists in our space, they have their best internal communities, right? Like the punks community is what keeps punks going. And I think we have to, like, reset ourselves a little bit to, to to think about that as well.
00;49;50;12 - 00;50;18;00
Chris
So one thing that's interesting to me as you talk about this is all of these artists that you're mentioning had some form of a successful commercial practice going on, and that's very wide ranging, right? The squiggle guy with the big hair ran a title company. Kim Ascender. If you you've seen the Metallica video, he's worked on people, you know, very prominent graphic artist.
00;50;18;03 - 00;50;38;13
Chris
The crypto punk guys were the freaking biggest app devs in like the T-Mobile sidekick ecosystem, right. And ran a digital consultancy. Like they're able to do this a they're doing it maybe partially out of love, partially like to express a part of them that, you know, they couldn't, but they also like aren't doing it out of necessity. Right.
00;50;38;14 - 00;51;02;17
Chris
Like and so there's a little bit of a dissonance going on here. And obviously you've spoken the entire time on this podcast about the need for more support, the need for more patronage. Right. But I think one thing we are seeing, right, is like there is a dividing line here of like people who can get away with doing this and therefore build these communities and maybe, you know, people who can't.
00;51;02;18 - 00;51;05;10
Redbeard
Well, you're really asking me to say some things that I want to say.
00;51;05;13 - 00;51;09;15
Pri
It's a good point, Chris. Honestly, just kind of it's a great point.
00;51;09;16 - 00;51;24;04
Redbeard
Yeah, it's an excellent point. I mean, I don't want to say this in people thinking I'm a hater when I say this. I think, Chris, your point is, is something that maybe we need to talk about more, which I'm afraid to sometimes, like pretty would say, because I would get yelled at, but.
00;51;24;06 - 00;51;24;12
Chris
Let's.
00;51;24;12 - 00;51;41;14
Redbeard
Do it. Yeah, I think that there's something to say, that there's going to be artists that are going to be very successful in what they do, and I think there's just artists that won't, and I and I, and I want to be able to say everybody's going to make it and everybody can build that way. And when reality, that's just not the case.
00;51;41;14 - 00;52;01;29
Redbeard
Now, with that said, and I totally agree with you. Like, I think it takes some special types of people to build these communities, to build their ecosystems out. Like it's a lot because it's almost a new way of branding for artists. And and some of them could do it and some of them can't. I want to say that that's okay, because at least I do feel very strongly about this.
00;52;01;29 - 00;52;29;07
Redbeard
Because of the new types of technology we have, where people can directly be in touch with people and the provenance we have in blockchain in different ways to share things that sometimes it's okay to say to artists like, you will not be in the MoMA, you won't be in the Whitney, you won't have the most extreme, insane commercial success that you might want, but you could also create art and sell it and still make money on it and be, you know, not a starving artist.
00;52;29;08 - 00;52;48;19
Redbeard
And I think sometimes we're afraid to say those things because sometimes this community was promised something else and, and promised a dream to artists that they need to, that they, you know, it's like sometimes they hate the screen in the MoMA. It's like, I need to be on the screen in the moment. Like why sometimes artists shouldn't be on the screen in the moment.
00;52;48;19 - 00;53;15;21
Redbeard
That's okay. And I think you're right, Chris. Like, I think if I'm being honest and I hope I get killed for this, that. Yeah, there's some artists or creators that are just more in tune to what their skills are to make those things work better. And they're using the tools that we have now have at our hands to increase there, there, there, there, there abilities to reach more collectors and patrons and buyers and believers.
00;53;15;21 - 00;53;34;18
Redbeard
And but it's it's it's it's okay. Like I don't know why people feel and maybe that's the structural thing, you know. And Aaron you were talking about that. That's the problem. It's like then all of a sudden they just hate on those people because they're doing that and therefore they have the chance to do that when, you know, maybe they're just better at doing it.
00;53;34;18 - 00;53;55;03
Redbeard
And I, I don't want people to think I'm hating because I really don't think there's anything wrong sometimes with just being an artist that, you know, sells ten pieces a year to like ten new people, you know, the the most successful artists that I love, my, my wife has this artist who started on Instagram, not a digital artist at all.
00;53;55;06 - 00;54;11;19
Redbeard
And I don't know why I'm skipping her brains. She used to put these boxes for people to find and you have to find it now. She does these, like, flower shop things and you know, she. I don't know why I'm forgetting her name. It'll come to me in a second. But she had, like, nobody that was following her.
00;54;11;19 - 00;54;32;26
Redbeard
And she just kept building. She had building and she got building. And now she has this huge following on Instagram. A lot of people like art. Stupid. Okay. It doesn't matter because people love who she is. And I think that we we need to like, realize that. I think that we have to sometimes, as I think artists sometimes have to me be move their North star a little bit differently.
00;54;32;26 - 00;54;54;06
Redbeard
What I, what I, what I say that is because we built this system and we have on chain art and we have digital art, we have this community and we have Twitter and we have social media, and we have all of this. You finally have as an artist the ability to actually create art when for everybody else to see, when in the past you would make something and nobody would see it.
00;54;54;06 - 00;55;08;05
Redbeard
And I think that is such a special moment. So we need to stop worrying about how other people do that better. But yes, I do agree. I think there's people who just are more in tune to do these things better, and I hope people don't hate me for saying that.
00;55;08;06 - 00;55;28;25
Aaron
You know, for all this stuff. I don't think it's actually unique to the digital art or NFT market. I think it's a similar issue that's happening with just the entire digital asset market. Right. Like a just like this retreat to go to institutions, like, not like pushing enough into kind of the future, building something that's more differentiated than what we have now.
00;55;28;27 - 00;55;53;13
Aaron
You know, if you look in just digital asset land, right. What's the conversation primarily stablecoins and tokenizing securities, real world assets, which is being sold to the existing systems just as a way to be more efficient, which is great. And like I'm not knocking that at all. But my worry right now is that's kind of the current structure of of the NFT markets following that.
00;55;53;13 - 00;56;21;05
Aaron
And I think you're right. Like maybe that's the right move. We've seen this in like every bear market, you know, you see like more conversation around tokenized securities, STOs right after ICOs, etc.. You know, I hope the experimentation continues. I think it's at least noticed by me. I think it's great. I just think it's that it's a moving target now, like we've got to move faster than other parts of the tech ecosystem and think more about distribution, because I think that that is the name of the game.
00;56;21;09 - 00;56;36;27
Aaron
Yeah. And that I don't know if anybody has an answer for yet, but that's what I'm, I'm personally looking for because I think the creators will come. Yeah. Because I don't you know, I think it's almost like backwards, like what's the right thing to focus on. And I think this is where like ex-cop has done this well, who also started with very low price items.
00;56;36;28 - 00;56;55;21
Aaron
We started for nothing. Right on Giphy. Then low price items on on super rare but and then early like kind of teamwork at places I just think it it's you know you got to kind of build your tribe like online. And hopefully artists that do want to create in this space were kind of like tap into the space.
00;56;55;21 - 00;57;09;28
Aaron
They they lean into that a bit more than just trying to get get like a work in the hands of a prize collector. And I understand the reason why you want to do that, but I almost think it's like a, you know, you really have to focus on distribution and the rest like, falls in place.
00;57;10;00 - 00;57;37;29
Redbeard
I mean, it's no secret I literally been traveling all over the world last two years. In the last six weeks I went to, I think, nine countries. And, you know, I'd like to do this, but I'm going because I'm trying to, like, spread the gospel of what we're doing. And, you know, sometimes I get I lately been, you know, kind of looking internally to myself and these trips and take a lot of notes down and like, you know, a share with a bunch of people.
00;57;37;29 - 00;58;01;06
Redbeard
And I was starting to like what, what value. Am I getting out of certain things? And because you could talk this is this is a slow game. Right. And I think that we want this sort of world to turn in five years, but it could take us 15 to 20 years for it to actually manifest. And you know, I, I agree, like, look, I am all for institutions.
00;58;01;06 - 00;58;21;20
Redbeard
I'm a big believer on them. And I've been pushing I mean everybody knows I'm pushing to get more digital, our committees in different institutions, but the ones that kind of are like not interested or like, I don't know, I can't waste my time. Right. The collector who's like, I don't know, like, you know, they just don't even give you an in.
00;58;21;21 - 00;58;48;08
Redbeard
I'm not interested in wasting my time. Like, our time is precious. Exactly like you said, Aaron, because everything is moving so fast. So I think we need to do less time of convincing people who we think we need to convince and more have conversations and drive to people who may be more inclined to are already interested. And even if they're not 100% interested, like even 10%, give me something like a creator or a collector or an institution.
00;58;48;11 - 00;59;01;05
Redbeard
If you just give us a little bit, I'm willing to give you my time. I'm willing to travel for every mile, travel 1000 for that. But if you're not, why are you wasting our time? And we shouldn't. And I think that's something really important our community needs to do better at.
00;59;01;06 - 00;59;20;12
Aaron
Yeah. I mean, just one little push back on that. I don't think it needs to go slow, right? I mean, I think that this is part of the the challenge is, I think the core primitives that are around NFTs, community building, like internet, native distribution, etc., like it can move fast. It just needs to be leaned into a bit more.
00;59;20;14 - 00;59;20;20
Redbeard
To it.
00;59;20;20 - 00;59;39;29
Aaron
Yeah, yeah. Because I mean really like the only thing that the current setup is leaning into is like the 24 over seven global marketplace, which is amazing, but it doesn't need to move fast. And I do think the attention and interest comes from that speed. Right. Like why just pulling it out of like NFTs but like why did Uber grow fast?
00;59;39;29 - 01;00;02;22
Aaron
One people wanted, you know, to have like an on demand taxi. But I also think it gained attention because it was a huge, differentiated threat to the taxi industry, and they knew that they couldn't compete. And that in a weird way, like builds like, you know, builds up whatever project or ecosystems trying to to kind of disrupt it.
01;00;02;22 - 01;00;17;17
Aaron
And I think that the NFT space just needs to be a little bit more disruptive. And I'm not a big fan of using those words, but I think that that's why the art world was initially interested in it. Right? They knew, I agree, they couldn't compete like things were people were playing around with.
01;00;17;19 - 01;00;18;28
Pri
Feel with.
01;00;19;00 - 01;00;44;08
Aaron
Yeah, they were playing around with like animated, you know, gifts. Right. Or or generative art. Right. Things that were very different that they didn't understand. And it was moving very, very fast. And that's the most effective way to attract attention. And then people were geeked on that. I think a lot of people also like that speed and like they want to be part of something that's moving fast, that feels like it's changing things and instead of like retreating.
01;00;44;10 - 01;00;54;23
Aaron
So I think it's all I kind of normal, but I do I do hope that ecosystem moves into like more of a, like a, like an offensive posture because the time defense is kind of over.
01;00;54;24 - 01;00;55;22
Redbeard
Yeah I agree.
01;00;55;23 - 01;01;14;08
Pri
Yeah. I feel like there's this idea that we have to, like, acquiesce to the normal, like traditional art logic, which is like the point I was trying to make, like, and they're like, I think, like if you looked at like, I remember going to like, Marfa Year one is super small, but like, you're two, three, four even like last year when it's like bear market, there are people who come that are from the traditional world.
01;01;14;09 - 01;01;37;12
Pri
They come because they're like, this is new and interesting. And like my, you know, I know like they're just curious people. And I think the way that you like build the curiosity is not by like acquiescing to their structure that they know. It's like actually just being authentic to the structure and the people in this ecosystem. That's why I got initially interested, because it felt like new and different, not because it was like trying to be something that felt familiar.
01;01;37;12 - 01;01;40;15
Pri
And so that's that's like the one thing I would.
01;01;40;18 - 01;02;01;23
Redbeard
And by the way, like I have two things because I have a side note. But before I say that side note, not only do I agree, Preet, the numbers from UBS are clear, right? Contemporary art is literally falling off a cliff. Digital art, even with the default we had, is actually. And again, I'm not a statistic statistics person, but the line is going up slowly.
01;02;01;24 - 01;02;21;11
Redbeard
Right. It's not. It's going in an upwards direction. Clearly art collectors are getting younger as the day goes on, because generational wealth is finally shifting over to that to like our sort of generation, but definitely younger, like their great grandkids. And the other thing that is showing is that there's more women collectors starting to grow than they were before.
01;02;21;13 - 01;02;45;14
Redbeard
And I really, truly believe this, not just because I have two daughters and a wife, but if you look at the greatest patrons in art ever, most of them are women, and I think that they actually understand cultural shifts before men do because they don't usually look at speculation, but they they're a little more inclined to look at, like the human side of culture and things like, I think we just need to start operating knowing that's where the interest is.
01;02;45;15 - 01;03;06;13
Redbeard
Hey! Hence why I love AI Psicosis and start thinking about who we should be spending our time, you know, working with. Side note by the way, I cannot wait to have a robot drive me around. I am so excited for having a robo cab like I will be first online I cannot wait for. I've been in a Waymo, but I want like my own service.
01;03;06;14 - 01;03;25;26
Redbeard
Like like I pay $20,000 a year and it just picks me up and drives me off whenever I want to be. Also, I don't mind having a robot in my house doing all the things I want to. I will give it the utmost respect, and I do think we should give robots rights starting soon, like in the Constitution.
01;03;25;28 - 01;03;28;28
Aaron
We'll get there. That's actually. Well, I got into academia.
01;03;28;29 - 01;03;30;23
Pri
Robots making art soon.
01;03;30;26 - 01;03;57;24
Aaron
Yeah, well, I think that's going to happen. But I do think, you know, all the ecosystem also needs to comment on the changing world. And that's why I think you're seeing a cluster develop like you noted pre like in the AI community. And so it's it's a it's a challenging position for the existing digital art ecosystem or one they need to kind of like embrace that change and comment on it, but also do stuff that's novel and interesting enough such that it can cut through the the noise.
01;03;57;25 - 01;04;02;22
Aaron
Right. And I think that that's, that's kind of where we are right now. But when.
01;04;02;22 - 01;04;08;28
Redbeard
You watch, would you watch a basketball game, Aaron, or a baseball game that was not humans but just all robots?
01;04;08;29 - 01;04;27;18
Aaron
I don't know, I mean, sure, like I'm a pretty curious person. So I do think, you know, just talking about robots, like why did people kind of, like, take over a lot or take over the timeline, take over a lot of attention at or last year? I think that was because he was leaning into something that people know were coming, and he was commenting on it.
01;04;27;18 - 01;04;45;12
Aaron
Right. And if you think about, you know, who he, you know, chose, and I'm sure he spent a lot of time thinking about who to choose from, Elon to like the other characters. Like he kind of added there. It's commentary, right? And there's like layers of depth there. And that's what makes him great. But he's pushing ahead to where we're going instead of looking back to where we were.
01;04;45;12 - 01;05;08;20
Aaron
And I think that the the existing digital art movement needs to take some lessons from there and from some of the other the other artists that have kind of cut through the noise. And it is like building up community, hitting different price points of collectors to to build up that tribe, you know, pushing the envelope and, and doing things that were not feasible before because that's what everybody else is kind of doing now, too, right?
01;05;08;21 - 01;05;24;07
Aaron
If you're like a software developer, like you're doing things you didn't even think you could do, or if you were, you know, a product person, you're doing that. If you're a lawyer, you know, you have new tools at your disposal. So like, we're in a time of change and we kind of have to express and represent that in different ways.
01;05;24;11 - 01;05;24;18
Aaron
Yeah.
01;05;24;19 - 01;05;32;04
Redbeard
I actually agree with that since the last thing I'll say, because I have to get my kids pizza or they'll kill me. But I really think.
01;05;32;07 - 01;05;33;18
Aaron
Chris is not much different.
01;05;33;19 - 01;05;53;00
Redbeard
He's going to go. I think there's something really interesting to say that we actually create. Okay, there used to be this idea of a Renaissance man. So the Renaissance happened and was like, oh my God, I could do all these things. And then we started focusing on these smaller things to do. So the Renaissance man kind of disappeared.
01;05;53;00 - 01;06;15;22
Redbeard
I actually think with AI and robotics and all these incredible things we're doing, we're actually we're now creating, thank God, Renaissance people, not just men. I think that we're actually at a point of a new type of renaissance. I really, truly believe that. I think with the skills that we're we're going to be able to to have at our fingerprints fingertips that we've never had before.
01;06;15;24 - 01;06;34;06
Redbeard
It's it's kind of going to become this golden age of, of society. Now, we may go through this ten year period of shit, but coming out of the other side, it's going to be like Shawshank. It's going to be like, we're going to we're just going to crawl through like a mile of shit, and we're going to come back super clean on the other side, and we're just going to be creating incredible things.
01;06;34;07 - 01;06;52;18
Redbeard
And I'm I'm very excited for that. And the only thing I'll ask is that thank you guys for having me. I do love this podcast. I love everybody on this podcast, even though sometimes I'll yell at all of you. I just want to say, this is please don't stop doing this because it's one of the best, you know, pods that we have in the space.
01;06;52;21 - 01;07;00;17
Pri
Oh, thanks. Yeah. Thanks for coming on, Benny. It's it's a it's always good to have a good conversation. Hopefully people enjoy it too. And like, learn something.
01;07;00;18 - 01;07;01;21
Aaron0
And that's the goal.
01;07;01;24 - 01;07;08;02
Pri
Come away with some some thoughts. Awesome. On that note, should I. Should I do the intro to the pod?
01;07;08;04 - 01;07;09;02
Aaron0
Let's do it.
01;07;09;03 - 01;07;34;10
Pri
Okay, cool. Hey everyone, welcome to Net Society today it's me, Chris, Derek and Aaron with special guests Benjamin or AKA Red beard, aka Benny. Today we're talking all things art, crypto, AI, culture and more. Just as a quick reminder, these thoughts and opinions are own and not of our employer. And none of this is financial advice.
01;07;34;11 - 01;07;37;18
Aaron
And look guys, we didn't talk about the spaceX IPO. Look at us.
01;07;37;23 - 01;07;40;14
Aaron0
My God, it's actually crazy.