Shop Different, Play Different

What does it actually take to write someone else's story in their own voice?

In this episode of The Bag Drop: Untold Stories in Golf, host Matt Considine and co‑host Dr. Kevin Moore (a.k.a. “The Professor”) sit down with New Club Chicago's 2026 captain (and reigning club champ) Zander Nethercutt to trace an unlikely path: a 2017 essay about the Apple Store, a Facebook message six years later, and three years of near-daily phone calls that turned into Shop Different: How Retail Revealed Apple's Genius — the book he ghostwrote with Apple Store founder Ron Johnson. It's a conversation about writing as thinking, the discipline of changing your mind, and why the best clubs (and the best stores) are built around people, not product.

The conversation dives into:

• What a rainy monthly medal at Oak Brook tells you everything about a club: consistency, ritual, and showing up for guys you actually care about
• How Zander beat Ron Johnson in their first round together — and why that round became a book
• The decision to stop writing about Ron and start writing as Ron, and the dinner-party question that flipped the whole project
• Ron's first memory — and the unconditional love that shaped a career
• The green-vs-blue text myth, and why Zander now thinks his viral take got Apple exactly wrong
• Launch, deepen, restore: how the Apple Store was designed from the customer backward, and what golf retail could steal from it

Connect with our guest

Zander Nethercutt
📖 Amazon Book Pre-order: https://bit.ly/4esvV8Q

💼 Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/zander-nethercutt-0583b683/
📝 Substack: https://substack.com/@zander/notes
📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/zandercutt/|

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Additional Links:
✍️ Zander's 2017 Essay "The Luxury Network": https://zandercutt.com/2017/11/15/the-luxury-network/
📖 Preorder "Shop Different: How Retail Revealed Apple's Genius": https://bit.ly/4esvV8Q

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Chapters

00:00 Introduction

03:11 The Role of Competition in Golf

05:50 Understanding the Role of a Club Captain

08:32 Xander's Journey to Becoming a Writer

11:18 The Impact of Writing on Personal Growth

14:05 The Story Behind 'Shop Different' Book

17:08 Lessons Learned from Ron Johnson

19:47 The Personal Journey of Xander Nethercutt

34:45 The Call to Retail: A Personal Journey

38:48 The Shift: From Writer to Ghostwriter

42:55 Revisiting Perspectives: Apple as a Luxury Brand

47:26 The Evolution of Apple: From Humble Beginnings to Iconic Stores

51:09 The Pressure of Leadership: Balancing Speed and Strategy

56:43 The Role of Action: How Doing Shapes Thinking

01:01:27 The Power of Kindness in Leadership

01:04:59 Cutting Stories: The Art of Editing and Its Impact

01:09:37 Lessons from High Performers

01:16:08 Self-Actualization through Golf

01:21:17 Redefining the Golf Experience

01:27:29 Finding Passion in Golf

What is The Bag Drop?

The Bag Drop features weekly stories from the culture, community and characters shaping golf today. Produced by NewClub Golf Society, each episode blends authenticity and expert insights for passionate golfers at all levels. Special guests from clubs, courses and every corner of the changing landscape join us for thoughtful, in‑depth discussions on all things golf.

What is NewClub?

Founded in 2017, NewClub is the premier private golf society in the United States. It blends the community and access of a private club with the variety and affordability of public golf. Members enjoy thousands of reserved tee times, competitions and events at exceptional partner courses across our local chapters, as well as signature trips and exclusive perks. NewClub is revolutionizing golf membership, making the game more meaningful for those who love it.

Creators and Guests

Host

Matt Considine

Founder of NewClub and our resident feel player. Matt’s junior golf career led him to the University of Akron where he met our co-host. During his junior year, Matt Studied abroad in Ireland and discovered golf societies. Subsequent trips to Scotland fed his passion for the history, ideals, and culture of accessible, affordable, and sustainable golf, a concept he would later bring to the U.S. with NewClub. Known for his interviewing style, quick wit, and compelling storytelling, Matt brings thoughtful, reflective conversations to The Bag Drop. His professional journey before NewClub included multiple leadership positions in growth-stage startups, where he managed teams responsible for more than $250 million in revenue. Matt actively gives back to the game as a Board Member of the First Tee of Akron and past chair of the Evans Scholar Foundation. Proudly based in his hometown of Akron, Ohio, Matt finds inspiration in family life with his wife, their three children, and their golf dog, Gypsy.

Host

The Professor

NewClub's Chief Ambassador and every golf sicko's favorite educator. Kevin is a thoughtful and deeply curious host. His studied, constructivist approach adds intellectual enrichment and balance to the show. As a professor of Math Education at the University of Georgia, Kevin's background in applied mathematics and cognitive psychology uniquely informs his insights on golf strategy and performance. Originally from Ohio, Kevin was a Division I collegiate golfer at the University of Akron, where his passion for understanding mathematical thinking began. After earning his doctorate from Arizona State University, he combined his analytical expertise with his love for golf by co-founding Golf Blueprint, an organization aimed at helping golfers optimize their games through data-driven strategies. Kevin enjoys balancing deep philosophical discussions with simple pleasures, such as indulging his sweet tooth, cheering on college football, and spending relaxed evenings with his friends, his wife, and their beloved dog, Nole.

What is The Bag Drop: Untold Stories in Golf?

Weekly stories from the communities and characters shaping the game. The Bag Drop blends thoughtful, honest perspectives of Matt Considine (Founder of NewClub) and Dr. Kevin Moore ("The Professor") with expert insights for passionate golfers at every level. Produced by NewClub and supported by our members, each episode welcomes guests from clubs, courses, and the lesser-known corners of the golf world for thoughtful discussions on all things golf and life.

Founded in 2017, NewClub is the first of its kind golf society in the United States; blending the community and access of a private club with the variety and affordability more typical of public golf. Members enjoy thousands of reserved tee times, competitions, and events at exceptional partner courses across our local chapters, along with signature trips and exclusive perks. NewClub is on a mission to revolutionize golf membership, making the game more meaningful for everyone who loves it.

Listen, rate, review, and subscribe to The Bag Drop:
Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-bag-drop-untold-stories-in-golf/id1430328006
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Website: https://www.newclub.golf

Zander (00:00)
When you're going through life, you know, going back to our conversation about every idea has its time, right? Or doesn't have its time. And you a good idea, if it's not delivered at the right time, there is no there is no idea. It needs to be in the right moment. You know, the most important, I think, skill that people can have in life is being able to feel exactly where they are and feel the context of their moment and exactly what that moment needs. And

I guess I I guess my my

Golf demonstrated to me what it felt like to truly love something. And then I found that with I I was able to to remind myself that I was experiencing that with writing. Where I was like, I should keep doing this because there's just no doubt in my head that this is what I meant to do.

Matt Considine (00:36)
Yes.

Welcome

to the Bag Drop, Untold Stories in Golf. I'm your host, Matt Considine here with our co-host, the Professor Dr. Moore. Top of the morning, sir.

The Professor (01:01)
Good morning to you. How's your how's your morning going? We always start with what it's going on in my life. Let's let's kick it back to you for once.

Matt Considine (01:08)
kids were fantastic. Mom was to work early. Dad had a couple meetings before you and I get to to have this chat with a gentleman that we've been excited to chat with today. And yeah, everything was in order, which is very rare, very unusual to come, you know, rolling to to the desk stress free, but excited nonetheless. How was your morning?

The Professor (01:29)
It's good. We're just we're forty eight hours from getting on a cruise ship right now. So trying to trying to knock out everything, clean up every little small loose end, 'cause when I get on the ship I like to just put the computer in the safe and the phone in the safe and don't touch for several days. So

Matt Considine (01:44)
So here's

the question for the professor this year, more cruises or more golf tournaments? Which which one are you capping out at? Because I know you're okay.

The Professor (01:53)
More golf. More golf. Not not

playing in not back to the tournament mode yet, but definitely more golf this year. This is a this is a say yes to golf year. And we've we've might have already put more rounds in this this summer than all of summer last year, and just this first sort of run.

Matt Considine (02:09)
Yeah, you you've been you've been a busy boy and seeing some cool places, but kind of leisure golf, NewClub golf, like fun, enjoyable golf, not you out there grinding on the competitive Min Am circuit. replacing that with cruises, phenomenal choice. I think good for Claire, good for you. Excited for both you guys.

The Professor (02:15)
That's right.

I love the I love the disconnect that you get on a cruise ship. I didn't think I would ever like them. Claire got me to go on a virgin one and just it's got great food, benefits with no kids, so pretty laid back. I now look forward to it. Never thought I would be that person.

Matt Considine (02:38)
Hey, if I'm going on a cruise, even in my stage of life, it's with no kids. I I want that. Sign me up. we got an awesome guest today, guy that we both know, probably me more than you, but I've always enjoyed being around this guy, talking golf with this gentleman. And it's New Club Chicago's captain for this year, twenty twenty six. He was ratified and put into office for for New Club, and it's Zander Nethercutt

he's a former college golfer himself, played at Kenyon College, and he's a writer. And I think you and I love talking to writers. I think you and I aspire to be some version of of of writing, whether it's your academic papers or me spouting off on our blog. But Zander is has an interesting path to becoming a writer. He he did this essay on Apple the Apple store, and it caught the attention of Ron Johnson, who's

The Professor (03:12)
Yes.

Matt Considine (03:29)
Now his co-author in his first ever book called Shop Different, How Retail Revealed Apple's Genius. And I read the essay this morning. I see why it grabbed Ron's attention. I can't wait to get my hands on the book and dive in because really fascinating, you know, reflection on obviously one of the most powerful, great companies that's ever existed. But but really us as consumers and just society, it it's it's fascinating, fascinating stuff.

The Professor (03:39)
Mm-hmm.

Matt Considine (03:57)
and it's really cool that he's a part of a NewClub, that he's our captain this year. So it just felt felt ideal to get him on the pod to to chat.

The Professor (04:04)
Yeah, I I strongly recommend our listeners go check out his he's got a couple of different blogs. I know one on Medium, but then Xandercut.com is the one I was checking out where a lot of the stuff you can read. And I think it just you bring up writers and what we like, you know, I think why I like to interview writers. I think one of the things about most writers like to write for obviously storytelling, but really to sort out their own thinking. I think you see that in a lot of Zander's work, right? He's playing with ideas.

And it's through the exercise of writing that your thinking becomes clear. You look for coherence and incoherence in your own thinking and you just flesh it out. And I think the best writers have that feature where they see writing as an exercise of thought experiments. and then I think by and large that means they make for they make our job easier because they're great podcast podcast guests.

Matt Considine (04:51)
For sure. and as a golfer, as a member of New Club, he's just one of those people that always remind me, you know, the whole mission and the whole thing behind New Club is, you know, people that actually care. They care about their golf, that they it's not just, you know, I joined this app. It's it's the people that r remind you. New Club is a is a club and a great one at that. And it's people like Zander that makes that real. it's the ones that show up, it's the ones that

play and invite and compete and just just make your golf better, make your round better. And so great parallel there for writing in in the world of of golf at New Club. Any teachings for us, Professor?

The Professor (05:30)
I do, I do. I was back in the podcast game, was listening to a recent podcast on sort of eating and sleep health and how those interplay. And you know, I'm on Instagram too often. don't use it that much, but I'm still on it too often, which is any use of it, I would say. but, you know, you could get the n all the different f s reels that you get and there's so much food and nutrition stuff now.

you know, I it's kind of one of the buzz things going on. What should you eat? What shouldn't you eat? Being clean, do you do seed oils? And you can go down some deep, deep rabbit holes. But there is a pretty important distinction when you're looking at the foods that you're eating. obviously, hopefully you're eating for health benefits. And there's two really stark differences of the health benefits that you'll see foods get tagged with. One is just, and let me make sure I get to get these words right here.

One is just structure-function claims. So this would be like, why do you drink dairy, let's say? Well, you want calcium that helps with bones, right? That helps your bones grow. And that is just a straight structure-function claim. There's a mechanistic understanding understanding of why that happens. and they just those what you're eating just naturally influence the structure function of the human body. So calcium builds strong bones, fiber maintains bowel regularity.

Antioxidants support a healthy immune system, right? There's a strict function to how what they're doing. Now, in that world, there's not actually not a lot of oversight because it's just those are mechanistic claims. We understand the mechanistic aspects behind them. It just, you know, that works and that that's how it helps the body. Now, on the other side, there are functional or health claims. So these would be something like oats reduced cholesterol levels. So this is like

Linking a food or nutrition to something that it actually reduces or improves a condition of. These do get held to rigorous scientific standards. These are demonstrated, have to go through lots of experimental studies before they're actually approved by the FDA. and that. So the distinction there is if it says supports heart heart health, that's a structure structure-function claim, lower bar of proof. If it says reduces the risk of something.

That's a authorized health claim that's based b backed by significant scientific standards. so when you're out there looking at, you know, what does the food do, just think this is just normal function of my body, it's helping out, or is this actually trying to reduce something or reduce some disease and there's different standards there. So a little bit of background on the the food industry and the different standards that are that are that they're held to or not held to.

Matt Considine (07:59)
It's actually really helpful for me right now 'cause I'm you know, talking to AI about my inflammation, trying to take a little less Advil to start my mornings after, you know, a couple rounds of golf and playing with the kids on in the backyard. and so I'm doing a lot of that. I'm gonna keep those classifications in mind. So thank you for that. Always, always bringing something. Ugh,

The Professor (08:05)
Any

Yeah, good luck with good good luck with inflammation. That if you just Google

there just Instagram inflammation, you'll you can go down all the rabbit holes on that.

Matt Considine (08:26)
This is forty.

This is forty. I'm gonna eat fish oils, baby. Omegas.

Before we get on to the show, a thanks and a reminder that this podcast, New Club Golf Society, is in partnership with Titleist. They're all new GTS. Put it simply, Professor, this progression into 2025 in the GT series, and then continuing with lead engineer Stephanie Luttrell and her team into the GTS. It represents probably the most significant technological leap that that Titleist drivers have made in their designs.

As a a fitting first company, our friends there always want us to remind you that if you're dedicated, if you're committed, you gotta get fit. It's it's you know, there's a full range of products. don't just pull it out of a buddy's bag because he's saying, here's the new hot driver. Like go get yourself fit. There's there's all all the range of of club heads, but shaft offerings as well that they're gonna pair you up and get you into. there's the three distinct GTS driver models and and go to a prof a precise

fitting system which is required by by titleist fitters that they get certified and they're all specialists who are going to help you identify, you know, the setup that is best to deliver you the most immediate benefit, but also a consistent benefit for for you and your game. So head on over to their driver selector tool get you started and it'll take you to that fitting specialist near you at titleist.com. All right, professor, let's get on to the show.

The Professor (09:57)
Let's do it.

Matt Considine (10:03)
Zander Nethercutt, Captain Nethercutt, welcome to the backdrop.

Zander (10:09)
Thank you for having me, Matt.

Matt Considine (10:11)
I'm we've been excited to chat with you, man. You're you're a fascinating dude, a passionate golfer. You belong on this podcast for a bunch of different reasons. maybe selfishly I'll start with you're our new captain of New Club in our oldest, most prestigious chapter. no offense to our Atlanta friends, but I I wanted to just start there. You know, it's it's funny because we spend a lot of time explaining what New Club

is not to to a lot of folks, I think. You know, it's it's not the country club, it's not your your men's league, your your travel league, it's it's not a booking service. But but members often they can feel when it's actually becoming that club, that different way to belong. And and since you stepping into that role as captain, I've noticed more people feeling that way just because I some of the

little content pieces we put out with you and and just your conversations and activity. But what are the little signs you think you look at that tell you, okay, you know, there's a good pulse here of of Chicago New Club.

Zander (11:15)
Yeah, I mean it's it's a good question.

You know, I was I was at a monthly medal y on Sunday out at Oak Brook. and I don't know, there were, you know, however many guys there were, a couple dozen guys out there, and we got kind of a it's a cloudy, rainy day at the beginning. but I was playing I wasn't playing particularly well, and yet, you know, as I as I watched the leaderboard kind of coming down the back nine, you know, I don't know, I see all these familiar names, all these guys, some of whom I expect to be there, others of whom

you know, I know have game and maybe hadn't been flashing it as much last couple of years. There was one guy in particular, Andrew Luttrell, who was going, you know, pretty low, playing well. I know this guy has game and I see it, you know, I see it start to play out in the scores. And, you know, after I finished, I knew I wasn't going to win the event. but I just felt compelled, you know, after I I was standing on the parking lot to go back and watch these guys, these other guys that I know just come up eighteen and see how they finished it off. and I think

You know, in golf, I don't know, there's there's this element of when you don't play well, sometimes you just want to get off the course and you know, head home and sit on your couch and sulk about having shot in eighty-two. But you know, I got off the course and I'd shot in eighty-two, and yet there I was, like seeing this leaderboard, knowing that these are all guys that I care about, who I've built relationships with over the last couple years, and I wanna go, you know, see them finish up. And part of this, I will say, part of this was that Mark Colwell was also in contention.

I was like, guys, Mark Colwell absolutely cannot win the monthly medal. Like someone's gotta beat him. and so I go down, you know, I at at the end, I I go watch David White get up and down from 40 yards to, you know, shoot a plus six and beat him. And that just it kind of made my heart sing. You know, it was just one of those moments where it's this guy you know hits a big shot in a big moment in a monthly medal. and you know, he comes off and I dap him up and we talk for a while, and I met a new member right there on eighteen. And it was just kind of this, it wasn't a huge deal.

But it was just one of those moments where you're like, this is a cool thing. You know, it's these are guys that are excited to see each other, that see each other, you know, continually, not just once, but in kind of this ritualistic manner, whether it's at a monthly medal, whether it's at an event like the Stinger. and you know, I think that's a lot of what a club is. It's it's it's consistency. You know, it's not it's not anything flashy, but it's consistency, it's ritual, it's you know, over and over, it's expecting to see the same guys.

And so yeah, I think I think Sunday illustrated for me, you know, the power of of of NewClub. and it just it it kind of reinvigorated me. It just got me excited to to keep this whole thing going ⁓ and to be captain.

Matt Considine (13:42)
Yeah, those

th those those check ins and you know, we I know you were a competitive golfer and in college and i it's it's one of those things where a lot of I I just think it's one of those things that was culturally lost in in the transition from golf from the UK to here is that it is a game and a sport and you're intended to compete. And the cool part about it is that everybody fundamentally stinks at golf. You fail

You know, 99% of the time. But with handicaps, it can be equitable. And but but how how tell tell me how you feel like competition, it's clear that it plays a role, but it's not the front seat. Like what you're saying is you're still able to enjoy it after day. But how how has that evolved for you as you know, a one day competitive golfer to now a competitive golfer, but also with other elements?

Zander (14:34)
Well yeah, I I you know, it's interesting. I I you and I know we both think about like things from kind of almost like an anthropological first principles, like, you know, bottom up lens, like how did things emerge? And I think, you know, fundamentally when you look at competition itself, but just as an idea, competition is not I I don't think it's like inherently in our natures necessarily. I think rather, you know, what's kind of in our natures as humans is to play and to just do things. And then you know, I go back to with you.

You I think were talking about how golf originally it was just people like batting things around on a on a surface and then eventually, you know, maybe a ball rolled into a hole. And it was like, that's you know, we could make a game out of that. You know, we could just let's just try and do that. And then, you know, competition would have naturally been downstream of that. That after you know, after you kind of start playing around and you just do things, then you know, it's like this human thing where it's like you see other people doing it and you're kinda like, maybe I'm better at that than them. You know, it's like it's

It so competition is downstream of just this human impulse to kind of seek meaning and do things and just find a way to play and have fun. And I think part of you know, part of the relationship that I struggled with with golf for a long time was that I I it was it was almost like competition first, right? Where it was like in in in high school and college, you almost forget about the playful aspect of it. Where it's like you're at the tournaments, you it's these big events, stroke play, it's all this stuff, and it's just very serious and it's kind of nerve wracking.

And I don't know if this is answering your question, but I I I think New Club has really brought me back to this idea that, you know, the competitions are fun because you kinda know the guys and you know, it's just guys you enjoy and it's a game you love. And when you're all in that mindset of just like you just love playing for the sake of playing, and you just love being out there, it's kind of a natural thing to be like, Well, who's the best today? you know, and

It's you it's just sort of a question you you end up asking. And it can be, you know, David White some days, it can be Andrew Latrell other days, and Mark Colwell, dare I say it, other days. You know, sometimes it's me. ⁓ it yeah, well it I I I would prefer it not be, but you again, if he's the best some days, then he's the best. and so I think, you know, the best the best competitions tend to be downstream of a group that cares a lot about its members and knows each other really well.

Matt Considine (16:27)
Sounds like it can't sound like it can't Mark Cowell according to our captain. I ⁓

Zander (16:44)
And that's when competition starts to feel really fun. And it it doesn't make you want to win it any less. It actually makes you want to, you know, makes you want to win it more. But if you don't win, or if you do, it it's it's it matters because everyone cares. And I think you see the same thing in you know, in tour events where it was like, you know, today it was his day, and you know, when guys see other guys win, they're genuinely excited. You know, you have Justin Rose and Roy McElroy on the eighteenth green at the Masters, and Justin Rose wants to win that so badly.

But then Rory wins and, you know, hats off. It's, you know, it's it was his day today. and you know, I'm happy for him. So I think I think I don't know, it's that it's that NewClub, it's that blend of it's that beginning with familiarity and the care and the love for the game and then letting, you know, the quality of the competition really emerge from that.

The Professor (17:26)
Mark poor Mark taking shots all all throughout the beginning of this episode. ⁓

Matt Considine (17:31)
Hey, you

gotta have you gotta have, you know, an antagonist in the story.

Zander (17:33)
If anything it's if anything

it's a it's a tet it's a testament to the quality of his game. ⁓ yeah, he's playing well.

The Professor (17:37)
That's right.

Matt Considine (17:37)
He's playing well.

He guy's playing well.

The Professor (17:40)
Zander, you know some of our listeners are obviously NewClub members or familiar with Scottish clubs, but a lot of them aren't. And so they hear the word captain and might not be familiar with what that means. So I'd like from your perspective, one, what was your reaction when you know approached on being the captain of the the Chicago chapter of NewClub? And then what is it that you see as your role within the the n the the golf club as captain?

Zander (18:06)
Yeah, I I think my my first reaction was you know, surprise. and you know, kind of this elation of of feeling like I was recognized not only by Mark, but apparently by, you know, my peers in the club, as Mark described as as someone who really stuck up for, you know, the club's values and and and you know what NewClub is supposed to be about and how golf is supposed to be played. So I felt very honored to be

To have been spoken about like that. I mean, I I've heard it said that your brand is what people say about you when you're not in the room. And, you know, and I think it was nice to know that someone had said something that elicited the reaction from Mark that, you know, I could be captain when I wasn't in the room. So that was that was my first reaction to it. you know, as far as my role, I think to be honest, like I'm I'm still figuring out exactly what it is. and, you know, trying to understand how I can best serve the club.

I think there are you know, there are a couple primary things that I've I've been trying to focus on and you know, the first one is presence and this is this is pretty easy, right? It's it's being at the events, you know, it's it's communicating with members, it's introducing myself and that's it's pretty easy. I mean it's it's it's kind of I think part of why it felt so natural is I already like to do these things. You know, I like to I like to go to the monthly medals, I like to go to the stinger, I like to compete, you know, I like to be out there and

I Thomas Vangle said something to me. He's like, yeah, Zander, you add a lot to every event you're in. And it's because I I get I get excited. You know, I get, you know, I get fired up. If I make a big putt, like I'm gonna celebrate, you're gonna hear about it. And like I, you know, so it's just I I do think there's a bit of that fire that I like to think that I bring to those events. and I think you you need some of that in a captain, you know, just that excitement. so I think there's that. I think the other thing that I've I've been trying to focus on and I I wanna be doing more of is both

engaging existing members and then you know communicating and helping onboard new members. I think you know NewClub as a club, you know, one of the strengths is the pure breadth of access that we have. You know, there's so much great golf in these cities that we're in, in northeast Ohio and Chicago and Atlanta. And you know, being a member at New Club, you really do get access to a lot of it, if not all of it, a lot of it. And

That is a that's a beautiful thing, but there also isn't, you know, a a a physical club right off the bat where you can go and kind of learn through osmosis. And I think as captain, my role is to is to is to bridge a little bit of that gap. You know, when guys join the club to be not necessarily an employee of NewClub, but someone who reaches out, welcomes you to the club, just says, Hey, if you need anything, any questions you have, like I'm here. and then

Obviously the reason we're all a part of this club fundamentally is because we love playing golf. And, you know, just to offer, you know, hey guys, we've got a Friday Skins game going this week. We've got a monthly medal coming up. You know, I'm not sure if you know what a monthly medal is, but it's our monthly stroke play competition where we just see, you know, who's playing the best that month. We've got the stinger coming up. It's our member guests. You know, it's a great event down at Flossmoor. You know, just explaining and, you know, giving meaning to these events. Because think as a member, it is it is easy to forget that when you joined you didn't know any of these things.

and so you know, I I I I do see myself as as that bridge between, you know, really feeling like you're a member and joining and becoming a member. and so I I think it's it's those two things. It's it's you know, it's the presence and then it's engaging with existing members and and and bringing on, you know, new members and really making them feel like they're a part of the club.

Matt Considine (21:32)
You you you do it really well, Zander. So we're we're honored that you're p y our our captain man for for Chicago. I I've always felt a a kinship with you 'cause, you know, you see a guy who's former college golfer, in sales, different tech companies in your career and maybe prone to discussions around anthropology and sociology as I I saw a lot of myself in in you when we first met and and just was like, my gosh, yeah, this is what you know

he'll do well within the NewClub environment from my experience, right? And and then I hear you're you're writing a book. So I figured you said yes to being our captain because you're like, sure, I got nothing else going on. No, he was writing a book when he agreed to do to be our captain. And in your first book. And so honestly I had to say like how did that happen? I I was and and we got to catch up a little bit down at Sweeton's Cove for our spring meeting and and so I went and read your original essay that caught the attention

from Ron Johnson, I think the the luxury network, which we'll include in the show notes just as a precursor to the book, which is Shop Different, How Retail Revealed Apple's Genius. But I I gotta I I'll summarize quickly what what I took from from it, you know, the headline of you know app Apple is this incredible luxury network and the stores are part church, they're part theater, they're they're

Part exclusivity, being a part of this this subset of society in in this, you know, really machine-like way that's gonna make your life better. And and I'm just curious, what what do you think or know caught Ron's attention with that piece? Cause it went viral. And, you know, the guy that was responsible for all those stores, it sounds like, took the most interest. Like what made him wanna know you?

And and or know who wrote it. And and maybe give us a little background on that story.

Zander (23:23)
Yeah, I you know, I I I can't say for sure from Ron's perspective what it would have been. I I I the interesting thing about that that essay, so I I published it in twenty seventeen. a lot of what I wrote in that essay, I actually I don't agree with anymore. It's it's you I I think that's sort of the joy of writing, is that you do grapple with your thinking. But again, the quality of your thinking is

Fundamentally based on the information that you have at any given moment. and as you get more information and you mature and you get older, you know, you look back on your old thinking, you're like, well, based on what I knew at the time, you know, yeah, that was correct. but as you get older and you learn more things, you know, you look back like wow, that was actually really immature. Like I I was kind of taking a very a a narrow look at something that actually there's much more to it. and you know, I was I

Matt Considine (24:07)
By the way, I I

I I feel like there's a hilarious comedic version of of all this where it's like you you you write it, you're you're working in tech sales in Chicago, which is always hilarious, those years I reflect on for me, and and and you write, you publish it, and then the guy behind the Apple store wants to talk. Like that's just that's hilarious to me. I'm sorry. Probably terrifying too, right?

Zander (24:30)
Yeah.

A little bit. A little bit. Yeah. I mean the the story the story itself is interesting. if you want me to kind of go into, you know, how you know what the story is behind the the book. Cause I I you know, I wrote the essay in twenty seventeen. I actually I published it while I was on a trip with my dad to Rwanda of all places. and so I wanna say I was like nine or ten hours ahead of like being in the US and I just remember like

I would wake up at like odd hours in the night and I would check my notifications and there'd just be hundreds, you know, of notifications. There's just people commenting and, you know, blowing it up. And that can be addictive, you know, as someone who spends also, you know, professor a little too maybe a little too much time on Instagram. You know, you you do get addicted to that drip of, you know, those notifications, and there were a lot. There was a lot coming through. And anyway, that was 2017. A lot of people read the essay. and then

Yeah, you know, six years went by after I had published that and I published a few more essays. I actually I stopped writing in twenty twenty, which is weird because you'd think the pandemic like it'd be a pretty good time just to sit in your room and write. But I think as the world ground to a halt, you know, I I things just sort of stopped happening and I stopped being inspired. you know, I just it just kind of stopped. after that I went and worked in a couple other sales jobs for a few more years.

I was, you know, one of the many tech layoffs that happened at the end of 2022. and from the end of 2022 to early 2023, I I kind of languished. I wasn't doing particularly well. and I don't know if you know this story, Matt, but actually, you know, I think in like March, it must have like February or March of 2023, just deciding that I needed to figure out, you know, to to get, I needed some sort of structure to start like

what it would have felt like rebuilding my life and kind of getting my shit together, so to speak. I joined Smart Golf over in it's like I think it's in Bricktown. and I started working with a golf coach. And I had qualified for the Illinois State amateur the year before. And so I kind of had designs on like I want to get back there. I wanna, you know, I I qualified last year, I'd like to contend this year. and it it it added this it it just getting back into like a gym and starting to work towards a goal started

It just got me into a mental space where the world looked brighter. You know, there was suddenly something to work towards, something something that something to start giving my life a little bit of meaning again. and it was around that same time, I think, you know, and it it might have been like May, that I decided, not because it was a a huge problem for me, but it was just kind of something that was lingering that I was gonna get sober. I was gonna stop drinking alcohol. and so I got sober. And

Then a week later, I was out at Flossmoor with a NewClub member at an event and I was on, I don't know, like the seventh or eighth hole, and I got a message of all places on Facebook from someone saying, Hey, I I I read your essay, The Luxury Network. This is the one that was published six years ago, and I actually know the guy who created the Apple store, Ron Johnson, and I'm gonna send it to him.

And you know, see what he thinks. And I, you know, I've gotten a few messages on, you know, different platforms over the years about things I've written. Facebook is kind of a especially weird place to get a message because it's 2023 and I just don't know, you who uses Facebook really. But you know, I got the message. I didn't reply to it. I saw it, you know, I went back to playing around playing my round golf. Then a week later I got another message and it was looping me in with this guy who created the Apple store, Ron Johnson. I remember when I got the original message, it was like, Yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna send it to the guy who created the Apple store, and I was like,

Steve Jobs created the Apple store. Like, what are you talking about? That unless he's, you know, unless what happened in 2011 didn't happen, I'm pretty sure he's not with us anymore. but but anyway, so I got that second message. I also think I ignored that. And then I got a third message like a week after that. And this one I think was from Ron. And he must have been stalking me on Instagram or you know, just he must have seen my Instagram.

Matt Considine (27:54)
Yeah.

Zander (28:18)
Because he hey Zander, you know, I'm I'm I see you're in Chicago and that you're a golfer. You know, would you like to join me for a round of golf? And we could talk about, you know, potentially working together. And again, at this point I'm not employed. I, you know, and I've kind of been trying to like look for a way back into writing. I've just gotten sober. And I just remember like I was standing like in my apartment and I just like looked up at the sky and I like, that this is weird. Like something's going on. It just it it kind of felt like

There was some higher power. Again, I don't know where I stand and all that stuff, but it felt like there was some sort of higher power looking over me, you know, sort of guiding the moment. and again, you know, the coincidences just kept lining up. I mean, the guy lived in Atherton in California. I'm from San Rafael, which is about an hour and fifteen, hour and twenty minutes north. And I was actually gonna be back in California. He was like, Yeah, do you you know, are you ever out in California? I was like, dude, I'm literally gonna be out in California next week for the Fourth of July.

And I was coming so I was coming out and he was like, Why don't you just come down? We'll play around to golf. We'll get to know each other a little bit. And, you know, we'll we'll just chat. And so anyway, so I met him, you know, a week later at his club, Menlo Country Club in you know in Menlo, Menlo Park, I think, California, which is about, you know, fifteen minutes away from where my grandmother lives. I mean, just in an area that I'm just intimately familiar with. and we met in this parking lot and we sh

Matt Considine (29:11)
Amazing.

And and your game's in good

shape at this point 'cause you just, you know, went through your physical training and indoor sessions, right?

Zander (29:37)
Dude,

Smart Golf. Smart Golf deserves so much credit for this. They, yeah, shout out to them. you know, Marissa, they're great. Yeah. Kyle Pekka was helping me out. Marissa Campo was my trainer. You know, she was getting me in shape. I remember doing the like Scotty Scheffler, you know, twists and telling her that it was hurting my back and then she'd find some other way to do, you know, it was it was a lot of creativity. It was good stuff. And yeah, so I so I got there and my game was in good shape, but

Matt Considine (29:43)
Shout out to SmartCov. I I had similar experience with them.

Zander (30:03)
Not I was I was a little nervous. I think I was like five over through the first four holes and then I righted the ship. And I think I ended up shooting 76 and actually beating Ron in that first round, which luckily he didn't hold against me because everyone was like, Are you gonna let him beat you? I was like, No, I'm not gonna let him beat me. Like this guy founded the Apple store. He's a competitor. Like I'm I'm you know, we're gonna go out, we're gonna we're gonna do battle. anyway, and so we we started we just started talking and you know he wasn't really sure he wanted to write a book, it turns out. He, you know, he'd been toying with the idea.

I think for him there was an element of he left Apple in twenty eleven and he said to me, he was like, Yeah, you know, after I left, he was like, I told myself if I did you everyone told me to write a book. And he's like, and I you know, I told myself if I did, I would wait, you know, I would wait probably ten years or so before I actually did it. You know, I'd really want to digest it. He said the same thing, I think, about the Steve Jobs book that came out, Walter Isaacson's book. He's I don't want to read it right when it comes out. He's like, I'm gonna take ten years.

you know, let myself digest the experience and then I'll come back to it. and so I caught him, you know, what, 11, 12 years after he had left Apple. And so it was, it was, it was a little bit faded. Like he had, he had taken the time really to digest the experience. he also had an experience after Apple where he went and he was CEO of JCPenney for a couple of years. And for as well as everything that he had done previously in his career went, he'd been at Target for 10 years before Apple. He was at Apple for obviously 12 years you know, creating and leading the Apple store. JCPenney did not go particularly well.

And there are obviously a lot of reasons for that, you know, a number of reasons. But, you know, as as Ron said to me, he's like, you if we're gonna talk about this in the book, you know, I just wanna own what I, you know, my mistakes, the things that I did, you know, the the the the mistakes that that I made. and you know, it yeah, so it so we just started we started talking and Ron started just reaching out to me every couple days and would just share, you know, some little tidbit and just ask me how things were going and

The Professor (31:25)
Mm-hmm.

Zander (31:52)
I I think what we basically ended up agreeing to through all those conversations was all just, you I'll just, Zander, why don't you write a chapter and then, you know, we can see what that you know, what that looks like. And so I ended up writing a chapter, which he loved. And then we put together kind of a preliminary agreement for how we were gonna write the book. And originally, I'm going on and on. I hope you guys are you know, okay with me just sharing this story.

The Professor (32:12)
I

Matt Considine (32:12)
I'm fascinated by it. I

love it. Yeah.

The Professor (32:13)
love the writing process. Keep keep going.

Zander (32:15)
Yeah,

it's it's it's fascinating. I mean it's it's so originally, you know, he had said, Look, I'm I'm not a hundred percent sure I want to write a me story. You know, I don't know if I want this to be a Ron, you know, Ron Johnson's at the center of the story. I was like, Well, what you know, what do you want to do? He's like, Well, he's like, I don't I I think it'd be some sort of like lessons lessons learned type of book. You know, I I'd I think I'd rather have it be maybe like if it if it was my story, then I'd do a lessons learned book.

You know, if it wasn't my story, then maybe you could write it about me. and I I was I've I've never been the type of guy who likes to be told what to do. And I think when you're never the type of person who likes to be told what to do, the natural like corollary to that is you don't tend to love to tell other people what to do. And a lessons book always felt to me a little bit like we were just telling people what to do and what to think.

And the more I spoke to Ron, it was just clear to me that he just wasn't, he wasn't that guy. You know, he was a I think what what great leaders really do, and Matt, I I see this in you. You know, great leaders, they do do things, but they they also they light fires in other people. You know, they inspire other people to think for themselves. And I think that's what that's what Ron does. And so it was very clear to me from the beginning. It was like, if we're gonna do this, whether I'm the one writing it or whether Ron is the one writing it, we're telling this as a story.

We're gonna share it as your story. You have an incredible personal journey, you know, from growing up in Minnesota, going to Harvard Business School, deciding, you know, you had an offer at Goldman Sachs, but you decided to forego the offer at Goldman and go work in retail of all places. And not just retail, you know, not retail headquarters, but retail in the stock room. You know, in nineteen eighty-four, Ron went and he he went to Mervyn's in California, which I don't know if either of you guys remember Mervyn's, but you know, this little southwest kind of mid-tier department store chain that was

A really hot subsidiary of the Minnesota-based Dayton Hudson Corporation in the 1980s. and so Ron went there and he worked for six months in the stock room and trained and cut his teeth and really got to know every aspect of the retail business. He was ringing on registers, you know, scraping gum off the floors, all this stuff. and then in the late 80s, I think in 89, he went back to Target. And then, you know, he was at Target for 10 years. And then that really gave him the chance to go to Apple, and then Apple

he he created what it what is argu you know it's not it's not really a debate, it's the most successful retail concept in history. And but again, the story is as is as much a business story as it is a personal, you know, story of of, you know, how the how do the creations, how do the things we create also create us? How do the things we shape also shape us? And, you know, what beliefs do they instill in us? And I think there there was an element which we explore in the book a lot of how, you know, Ron's time at Apple really

gave him a level of confidence that I think he would describe as bordering on arrogance. You know, he's not an arrogant guy, but it was sort of the situational arrogance of I can go anywhere and fix anything. And obviously, you know, I think when you get to the top of the game in any you know in any game, whether it's golf or whether it's retail, you know, the only thing that wakes you up in the morning is the next big challenge, you know, something bigger. And I think the you the idea of reinventing the department store

The Professor (35:15)
Yeah.

Zander (35:19)
You know, where this guy grew up two miles from the department store from the very first indoor mall in the world and like the Dayton's department store in Minneapolis. I mean, that was it felt like fate to him, right? It felt like, you know, I was born to do this. I was I I walked through department stores with my brother as a kid. You know, my brother used to sing Christmas carols going up and down the escalators in the Dayton's department store. He's like, I I genuinely feel like I'm being called to do this. And you can see why, and you really you feel that in the story. And so

The Professor (35:26)
Yeah.

Matt Considine (35:29)
Yeah.

Zander (35:45)
You know, to me, I don't know, as I'm describing it, I get excited talking about it. And so the idea of like a lessons book when we have that story to tell is like, no, we're not we're not gonna do a lessons book. We're gonna tell the story, you know, of your personal journey and you know, let people find in that story what they will. and so we so I I pitched him on that narrative. And and originally I I I think I pitched him on, let's open with you, you know, I I think

Matt Considine (35:52)
Yeah.

Zander (36:09)
Christopher Nolan does this a lot. And I've heard it said that great stories often start in the middle or at least kind of towards the end. And they hook you with like a moment and then they drop you back. You know, record scratch, you know, you're back at the beginning. And we do we did end up sort of doing that. But I think the way that I pitched Ron on it originally was like, dude, if we're gonna do JCPenney, you know, let's lean into it. Let's open with it. You know, let's start, let's start with that. You know, that is the moment. and this is another lesson from Ron. I I I think, you know, he said when he talked about the genius bar and support in the Apple store.

He said, you know, when when you're when you're in doubt about something, either leave it out or stick it out. And that was the thought, you know, with the genius I say that with the genius bar, where was like most computer stores when they were developing the genius bar, it was either, let's, let's, you know, not have support at all, which was what most computer stores did. And Ron was like, no, it's like, well, we can either leave it out or we can really make it the primary feature of the store. And that's what they that's what they at Apple did. It's like we're gonna make support and service the primary thing that we focus on in this store.

Matt Considine (36:44)
Mm-hmm.

The Professor (36:45)
Good advice.

Matt Considine (36:48)
Wow.

The Professor (36:54)
Mm-hmm.

Zander (37:05)
You this idea that you can come in and get served. And so that was my thought with JC Penny of like, well, let's either if we're gonna do it, we gotta do it, or we, you know, we don't, you know, we or we we don't have it at all. and my instinct as someone who just loves rise and fall stories and just human stories was like, let's make it a big part of the story. And so I pitched him on that, and he was, you know, to his credit, he was very open. He's such a humble guy, you know, s which can be surprising, I think, for leaders and and you know, CEO types, incredibly humble grounded guy.

The Professor (37:19)
Yeah.

Zander (37:33)
And so I started w we started with that, you know, of me writing the book about him. And I got a few chapters in, you know, we were developing a proposal. I I mean, I was flying by the seat of my pants, calling every friend I knew who was like sort of in the writing industry, trying to figure out like, dude, how the hell do we do this? You I I like do we need an agent? It's like, no, you I mean, get a proposal, then get an agent. You know, it's just a very it was totally, you know, fly by the seat of your pants. And Ron was a great partner, just like, yeah, well, how can I help? You know, all this stuff. and then I think it was in December.

That I got dinner with a couple of family friends. And I had written a few chapters about Ron, you know, trying to tell the story in my voice. And I was explaining to him, you know, the family friends, you know, is at this dinner, and I was explaining to them what I was doing, and I was all excited about it. And I think as I spoke about Ron, and like, you know, he's a big deal. You know, he's a he's founder of the Apple store, worked directly with Steve Jobs.

I think it kind of hit this guy that I was talking to. Who you just kind of had this question. He's like, Zander, he's like, All this is great, dude. He's like, it, you know, it's an amazing story. I mean, I Ron sounds like such an interesting guy. You know, I'm sure this book is gonna be fantastic. He's like, I just, I, I really just have one question for you. I was like, What's the question? He's like, Why the hell are you writing it? And and I kind of sat there and it was one of those questions. It was kind of like one of those questions, it's like, it's like writing, where it's like all of a sudden, you know, writing.

I you know I've heard a great quote about writing, which is writing is it's the act of overhearing yourself say things that you didn't know you knew. And it's such a beautiful way to think about it. I'm gonna say it again because I think it's really, you know, writing is the act of overhearing yourself say things that you didn't know you knew. And when he said that, I mean I wasn't writing, but like it was that you know, writing is a conversation with yourself. And I think in that conversation with him, I heard something that I knew.

The Professor (39:01)
Mm-hmm.

Matt Considine (39:02)
Ooh.

Yes.

The Professor (39:05)
Beautiful.

Yeah.

Zander (39:18)
But I didn't really know to that point that I knew, which is like, I have no business being the one writing this book. I really, I don't. And and and so that and that planted to seed my imagination. It's like, well, you know, what if I went back to Ron and said, hey dude, I I have a proposal for you, which is I, you know, I just think this is your story, and I think you should tell it. You know, I think you should be the one telling it. And

You know, I'd I'd be happy to ghostwrite it for you. You know, I've never done this, but like I'd be I'd be happy to ghostwrite it for you. You know, I'd like to, you know, explore that. And Ron, again, very open guy, was like, Zander, if you think that's the better way to do it, you know, let's do it. and maybe you can write a chapter instead of writing a chapter about me in the stories, like, why don't you write writing a chapter in my voice? And that was liberating. and it was also circumstantially the right

But i it the circumstances lined up because my my intuition was, you know, after hearing about everything Ron did in the Apple store, that so much of his personal story, you know, again, we we are the result of all we have met, right? Of of all the things that have happened to us. And so what I be what I'd really been trying to do for the first couple months that Ron and I had been working together was unpack the early years, you know, unpack his relationship with his mom, with his dad, you know, these unconditionally loving relationships, unpack the relationships he had with his siblings.

you know, understand the not only the place where he grew up, but also the time in which he grew up, you know, what what are what what relationships were like with you know, what adults' relationships were like with politicians, with community, you know, the with these ideas of service, you know, all these things that came out in the Apple store to really tie that together for the readers so they could understand that, you know, as much as retail it Apple retail was a business decision, it was also a very personal journey and a personal expression of who Ron was as a person.

Coming out through a business initiative. and so when I got to, you know, having talked about that with him all through the end of 2023, by the time I got to January, and I said, you know, I was saying, it's, you know, I'm gonna write this in your voice, I really had a good scaffolding for what his childhood was like and what it would be like to write from his perspective. And it wasn't intentional, it was just I we talked about it so much, I just kind of knew.

And so I sat down and I I remember where I was. I I you know I pulled out my laptop, I made my coffee, and I just sat at my kitchen table for you know 30 minutes in the morning and I just wrote out, you know, the first chapter. You know, I think I think we titled it in the beginning. You know, Ron's a he's a a Christian man, a man of faith. And so we it was in the beginning, and that was the first chapter. And it was his childhood, and it was about his parents and it was connecting retailed all that. And you know, obviously the drafts would change, but I I sent that to him, and I think the text I got back was just.

Wow, in you know, in all caps. And it just it just clicked. It was like that's that's this is this is the only way to do it. And Steve Jobs used to say that. He he would say, you know, if you work hard enough at something, you know, you'll you'll you'll reveal the inevitable way that it had to be done, and everyone will agree it couldn't have been done any other way. And you know, it was months of trying to figure out w all the wrong ways to do this, that it just clicked. It was like this is a story.

The Professor (41:56)
Yeah.

Zander (42:21)
It starts at the beginning, you know, with this childhood story and it's it's in Ron's voice. And that was the moment that it flipped from being me, you know, writing Ron's story to me, you know, ghostwriting for Ron and and the book would really be in his voice. and so from there, it it it progressed. And I'm I'm happy to to to keep going, you know, with the story, but ⁓

The Professor (42:39)
Yeah. I yeah, I

I do want to follow up. It's so apparent in there how much your time with Ron has just shaped you and how I can see in your excitement, how much you learn from him. And so I want to go back to something you alluded to. That you know, you wrote this 2017 piece that led to all of this. And you know, Apple being a luxury brand, but you you you snuck in there, you know, your time with Ron sort of

changed your thinking on that or like, you know, you read it now and you're like, I disagree that I wondered if you could talk us through that shift. One, maybe start with like what you meant when you called a luxury brand and what did you learn through that journey with Ron and telling the story that now you look at and you're like, you know what? Maybe I was partially correct, but I think about this differently now.

Zander (43:24)
Yeah, I it's it's fascinating. I I've thought a lot about this, and I've also thought not nearly enough about it. so forgive me if this is a bit rambling. It's it's the the thoughts are are not yet formed, but they're I I have sort of the idea of what I wanna say here. And yeah, I I think

Matt Considine (43:40)
That's like our

podcast entirely, Zander. We we don't have all we have is an idea. Cook, baby, cook.

The Professor (43:44)
You yeah, so you're your

Zander (43:45)
You mean we don't you mean we don't all have it figured out? Yeah. It's

⁓ it

The Professor (43:47)
thinking's always just your present self, right? It's just your present self and you can revise down the road.

Zander (43:50)
Yeah.

That's exactly right. That's exactly right. Yeah. Conversation is my act, you know, speaking is my act of processing what I'm thinking. Don't, you know, don't listen to what I say anyway. Yeah, it's it's so it was a twenty seventeen essay. but again, you I as I s I've I've always kind of said this about writing, that writing was I I was I came to writing in kind of a weird way. I you know, I didn't study I didn't study English in college, which a lot of people expect, because Kenyan is a very

It's, you know, it's it's known for its English program. there are a lot of really fantastic writers that have come out of Kenyan. Everyone who I knew, you know, I knew so many amazing writers at Kenyan and just incredible communicators. I did take a creative writing course at Kenyan and I did a lot of writing in other, you know, in other classes. So I was writing a lot, but I wasn't really learning about the act of writing, which I actually I think was a good thing because I think when you approach something in a more

Playful way, in a way that's just sort of fun. And you're not so bound by like reading all of the best things that have ever been written and like listening to classmates say things that you could never even imagine coming out of your own mouth. You don't get intimidated in the same way, and you don't, you're not afraid of not being enough. and so I I do wonder what would have happened if I had studied English. I mean, maybe I would have done something completely different.

but I think I was very lucky that I didn't actually study it and that I found writing almost as a necessity as opposed to something that I study. I mean, I found writing because it was a way to help me express my own thinking. And I'm I'm getting to where I want to go with the Apple stuff. But writing really became a way, you know, I like to read and I would I I was reading a lot of stuff after school. And I think one of the essays, one of the things I read was a book from Scott Galloway, the NYU Stern professor, who was talking about the Apple stores, and he talked a lot about Apple as a luxury brand.

And it was it was pretty clear, I think, like the twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen era that that's what they were becoming. Cause you look at, you know, you look at what they were doing with the Apple Watch and their partnerships with like Hermes, and their ads, you know, their ads were no longer on billboards, but rather in like magazines and like Vogue, you know, and like these places where it was very clear that they were targeting a higher end market with these products. And Apple has shifted, I think, a little away from that now. But it was very clear that that was that was

at least in the zeitgeist of their thinking was that we're trying to go upscale a little bit. and he said something too about the stores. And and so I I I don't think it honestly I I when I look back on that essay I'm not even sure it was that, you know, original of thinking. It was more just looking at you know what the Apple stores had become and the fact that they were so beautiful and

you know, they they really felt like churches and just the way they were built and, you know, their use of light and and and the you know, the incredible products.

and you know, I wrote about that, but what I

What I realized as I as I worked with Ron, I mean, again, this was 2015, 2016. And what I realized when I was working with Ron is that, you know, he was there from 2000 to 2011, end of 2011. And if you look at, you know, Apple as a brand and how beautiful the stores became and you know, how incredible, you know, these these incredible spaces around the world, you can really see that.

Apple wasn't always that company. You know, Apple wasn't always the one developing these incredible spaces around the world. You know, at first they were actually kind of modest almost. And so you you go back to the beginning, and when when when they first began developing the store, you know, the the question for Steve Jobs was, you know, well, what what's gonna be our differentiator? You know, what's what's gonna be the thing that differentiates us?

From the other resellers in the market. And you know, I'm sorry, Matt, I'm I'm gonna back up here a little bit because I I think the the story, the story is relevant of of really why Apple opened stores, to to get at kind of what I'm trying to say about the the essay itself. ⁓ it it the history on Apple is kind of important to understand. So Steve Jobs founded Apple in 1976. The company went public in 1980. through obviously the next couple years, they developed you know the Macintosh and then they launched that, and the there's the iconic 1984 ad.

Matt Considine (47:39)
Yeah, please.

Zander (47:54)
But at the time, you Steve was a very, he was an immature leader. And a lot of people have said this, and I think he said it about himself. He didn't know, you know, he didn't know what he didn't knew. He was being brash and kind of hard to work with. and in 1985, that led to him effectively being forced out of Apple. So he left Apple in 1985. after he left Apple, he founded two companies. founded might be the wrong word for Pixar, but he founded Next, which did a high-end computer for the education market, and then he founded Pixar.

which obviously we all know. And a lot of people don't know that he found a Pixar, but he did. and then in nineteen ninety-six, Apple was on its third CEO since Steve had left. It was the company was struggling, they weren't doing particularly well. and the then CEO of Apple, Gil Emelio, who was a former board member and had been the CEO of National Semiconductor, purchased Next for I think it was 120 million with the goal of bringing

The people from Next Back where there's some really talented software engineers that that he wanted back at the company. But also they had a software system that promised to help Gilamelio deliver, I think, on a promise that he had made about implementing some new software that would overhaul the internal architecture of the Mac. Or I I don't know the all the details. The the the important thing is Steve was back at Apple as of early 1997 or sometime around then. And then

Maybe it's not surprising that within the next couple months he eventually ascended to CEO. Gillamelio was out. but the interesting thing that a lot of people forget, Steve actually he he didn't take on the full CEO title immediately. He took on the he he called himself the interim CEO. And a lot of people have since theorized that he took on the interim title because he didn't know if Apple could be saved.

And which is, you know, again, it it it's kind of normal. It's like I'm I'm not sure. You know, I already was ousted from this company once. I'm I'm trying to defend myself a little bit from the pain of like if it fails again, I mean that's you know, that'd be hard. It'd be hard for anyone to deal with. and so he's interim CEO of Apple as of nineteen ninety seven. in August nineteen ninety eight, they launched the Bondi Blue iMac, the egg-shaped, you know, really design focused computer. And it sells pretty well.

But mostly to the Apple faithful, mostly to the people who already knew what Apple was, who already loved Apple. And it was at that moment that Steve had that realization. You know, he's like, I I don't think the problem is the product. The product is great. He's like, What I think the problem is, is the way that we're communicating with our customers. And if you look at where Apple was selling, it's not hard to understand this. I mean, they were they were their their go-to-market strategy at the time was largely through retailers, you know, small.

Mom and pop tech shops that were doing their best, but just weren't, you know, equipped to you know, probably articulate the Mac's value proposition and why it was so much more expensive. And then you had Comp USA and they were even selling it in Sears, which is insane to think about. They were selling the Mac in Sears. and so Steve had that realization as of early nineteen ninety nine that if the if Apple was gonna win, they needed to own the way they were going to market. they needed to own their customer experience. And that led him to, well, you know, I need a retail guy.

And so in in early 1999, he began interviewing candidates, and one of the candidates he brought in was Ron, who had spent the last decade at Target, and had just recently launched a line of h designer home goods whose handle, actually, the shape of the handle was inspired by the same figure that inspired the design of the Mac, which was the egg. and it's you know it's the shape that fits everyone's hand. and so there was this there was this interesting synergy between you know the two of them that they both were design focused.

Even though the hilarious thing is when they first met in November of 1999, after discussing all this stuff about the store, you know, Steve asked, Ron, can you just send me an email on on all this stuff? And Ron goes, I've I've never sent an email, dude. Like I, you know, I don't even have a computer. and so he's you he's at the end of that call with you know, at the end of at the end of that interview. And you know, he's he he doesn't even have a computer. And so it really shows how different the two worlds that they were in were. and but anyway, so

Matt Considine (51:28)
why?

I'm so jealous of that life. that th without a email, without a computer. I just want to give that a shot. You know, I've never lived that life.

Zander (51:36)
Long story short.

Can you imagine? I know. I I think I think a lot I

think I think a lot of us do. It's power NewClub, right? You get out there, get off the phone. ⁓

Matt Considine (51:45)
I think that's right.

I think I got a birth certificate and an email address when I was born. I don't I don't know if I've lived without it, but no, that's I I mean, I Zander, there's no no, there's so much to to to that and I can see y you're you're you're getting closer to like what what what changed? Well, a heck of a lot of information and the actual story changed and what this was you know was was really about. I I'm I'm just curious there's

Zander (51:53)
Yeah, it but it's yeah.

Matt Considine (52:13)
You know, the things you're you're tossing around here. We're talking about not not as many might know Ron Johnson, but everybody knows Steve Jobs. Everyone knows Apple. Everyone life has been changed considerably by that. And and r obviously your book is about Ron having a massive, massive impact on that. I'm curious when you're dealing with these, I don't know if we call them like the mythology of it. I mean, I'm a I'm an entrepreneur. I I mythologize Apple and I try to learn from everything they've they've done. And

When when you're doing that or writing on a topic such as this, is is every line like it probably feels a little bit like there's so much gravity to every line that you are you know there's gonna be the the the Apple faithful as as you said are going to be looking at this. And and I guess for the mission of your book, for for telling Ron's story, how did you decide which details?

are actually something that explain what took place and which details are just kind of like the the fun anecdote that aren't at the heart of it. D do you know what I'm saying? Because I I feel like we all have an anecdote about about Apple and you probably have y you yourself now probably have millions. But how do you decide like which ones are relevant to the story and which ones are are just the kind of shiny ones?

Zander (53:15)
Yeah.

Yeah, I mean it it's a great question. and I I the only way I can really describe it, I I think I think Jerry Seinfeld said something about this. I'm not I'm not comparing myself to Seinfeld, but I I do think the writing pr he he speaks well about the writing process, which is when he when he talked about, you know, writing Seinfeld, he said he's like, Look, the reason it was good is because we just locked ourselves in a room and we just worked on it for hours and hours and hours, and it was just all we talked about.

And again, I I hope that people think the book is good. I hope that they enjoy it. I don't know what the reaction is gonna be. I can tell you I've worked really hard on it. and have I I I'm really hopeful that people love it, obviously. but once it's out, it's out and that's that's its own thing. But you know, here it was really useful to have the creative partner I had in Ron because, you know, we would just I would write and then I would share it with him and sometimes he would like rewrite a little bit of a section or something and then he'd send it back to me.

And then we'd be on the phone and you know, basically every single day, often multiple times a day for three years. And I I don't think most people ever have a rel, you know, I I I ever have even a relationship like that. I mean, that's kind of like what a marriage is almost, right? Where it's like you're just talking all the time about this one particular thing. And it gets to the point that you like you know every sentence, you know every word in in the document. And

Ron, I don't think all you know authors like Ron have the time or the willingness to invest the level of time that he did into this project. But the way that we figured out like what sentences needed to be there and what sentences didn't was just A, by me, you know, writing it and just seeing like that doesn't fit. You know, you hear it in your own head and you can just hear that's superfluous, I've said that before. But it was also just talking with Ron all the time. And

You know, and just revealing like, hey, maybe that's maybe that's not relevant. Maybe that is relevant. And I I honestly I'm not gonna sit here and say we got it all right. I think in fact we got a lot of stuff wrong. I mean, I go I go back through the manuscript and there's plenty of times where I'm like, damn, I know we cut something here and I wish we could put it back, but you know, it's too late. And that's kind of the imperfection. The imperfection is the beauty of it, of like there used to be something here that's not, and like I know, the reader doesn't know. but I really think that's the only way to create something great is you just you you do it, you talk about it constantly all the time.

Matt Considine (55:33)
Yeah.

Zander (55:40)
It's you know, it it is your baby, it's your sole focus and it's the only it's the only way to really create great work.

Matt Considine (55:44)
That really answer that

that's that really answers one of my other questions for you, which was, you know, you're you're you're off writing your first book, but Ron's also t telling the story, right? And I was like, how did he that seems like a very ch a huge challenge, like a strange challenge almost in a way for for any writer. I but and I was like, how did how did he grapple with that? It sounds like through daily communication. So it was almost that th that you were were viscerally experiencing.

it through Ron so that it it probably almost felt natural at some

Zander (56:19)
Yeah, I mean it it it felt very natural. and again, he's just a good guy. You know, we're not like most of the time we're not even talking about the book. You know, he's just calling me like, Hey, you he's a golfer, so it's like, hi you I get he's like, I got a master's pool this weekend, who you got? You we're talking about other things. We really developed like a friendship that was kind of adjacent to the book, you know, running parallel alongside it. But it just made it very easy to talk about, yeah, by the way, I had this thought on this sentence. And you know, and then when you talk about like the sentences or like some idea, then that gives way to like

actually that kind of reminds me of like, we could market it this way. You know, actually that person would be a good person to speak to, you know, about like this specific idea. You know, again, I I I've I use, you know, the subtitle is How Retail Revealed Apple's Genius. But what that what that what that title really could be was just like how action revealed thinking. You know, I think that's just the truth, is that, you know, when you take action towards any sort of goal, you really it it forces your brain to think and it creates ideas in your head.

that then lead to like new different things you can do. And so I think, you know, marketing and all these things are really downstream of just like action and, you know, ideas

Matt Considine (57:20)
That re that resonates

so viscerally with with my experiences of you can sit all day long in that room as Seinfeld might say and and work on it. But the the the work is actually the action of putting it out in in the world when it was specifically when it deals with services or or products, like until it's it's that interaction with whether it's a customer or a partner or whatever.

it it the the idea is never going to really catch refine. It's not gonna refine. It needs that pressure. And and so much of human existence is resisting that pressure of like, it's not ready. It's not ready. But yeah, that I could see that that's that's such a great lesson for anybody, I think.

Zander (58:04)
No, you need and you need you need you need the pressure. And I I actually yeah, I I think that as humans, you know, we think we think that we want to escape pressure, but I actually think the opposite is true. I think we want, you know, we want to be under like the right kind of pressure. You know, I I think pressure, when you think about like what pressure actually is, what does a word mean? It's like pressure is synonymous with weight, right? It feels like weight. And I think when we use weight, you know, we we use weight to describe like meaning.

It's like if something's meaningful to us, it carries weight for us. And I think, you know, I I felt that way when I was out, you know, on on the the the last nine holes at at the club championship, you know, last year. It's like pressure is a privilege. It, it, it's a, it's a demonstration that something matters to you, that it means something to you and that it carries weight for you. And so when you're feeling that pressure, don't, you know, I I don't know, I I don't try and escape it. You know, you just have to sit with it.

and enjoy it and try and and try and relish it. and, you know, again, I I I think it it it it ties in well with like the lesson two of, you know, Apple versus JC Penny, because I think one of the interesting things you grapple with as a ghostwriter and as an author too, when you write a book, is that your memory is just not perfect. You know, our memories are weird things. They're very self serving. You know, they they they usually help like

as a golfer, it helps to forget all your bad shots, right? You just you only remember the good ones, you know, and so you don't oftentimes the picture you have of the past is just not reality. And so one of the things that you have to do as a ghostwriter is not only speak to your subject, but also speak to the people who knew him well. and honestly I would have liked to have done even more of that than I did. but you go back and you talk to these people and they you know will help paint a picture. And in in this case it was often a very different picture than the one Won Ron remembered.

You he's Yeah, I think we did that in like 2004, 2005. And they're like, No, that wasn't until 2010. Or like he's Yeah, we were doing that from the beginning. I was like, No, like we weren't. Like it was actually something that happened very late. And I think part of the reason I was so interested by that imperfection of memory is because I do think it had an impact on how Ron looked at JCPenney. And you know, when he got there, it he had this option. It was like, well, we can either wait a year. You know, usually retailers launch big overhauls at the beginning of a year. And he had gotten there in November of 2011.

and they said we can either do it, you know, we we can rush this out in February 2012, or we can wait a year. And you know, the conversation Ron had with the board, everyone was like, Well, what do have to lose? You know, JCPenney's it's not doing very well, like let's just go now. And Ron, you know, first time CEO and probably, you know, pretty humble guy, said like, okay, sure, like let's go now. You know, I I like we'll figure it out. You know, Ron is the type of guy who has always leaned into that immediate pressure, but there is that balance of like you do need the pressure, but you also need

To be able to go slow enough that it doesn't, you know, it doesn't break you right at the beginning. And, you know, I think Ron would say if they if he had taken that extra year to kind of shore up JCPenney's balance sheet, you know, get the relationships with vendors in the right place, you know, do a couple other things. Maybe he tried to eliminate all discounts. If he had gone a little bit slower on that, it it it might have gone better. but I think that's the impossible question for, you know, for the leaders is like,

We know we need the pressure of the market. We know we need to see how people are going to react to this and then iterate on it, but we also need to go, you know, slow enough that that pressure just doesn't break us completely. And that is it, it's it's just not one of those questions that anyone else can answer for you. And I'm sure you deal with this as a CEO. You know, you have to feel that balance. It's your job as a leader to sort of sit there and be like, what's too fast and what's too slow?

And be willing to sit with the fact that like if you go, whatever you do, there's gonna be things that break, there's gonna be things that happen that, you know, just that you are just not prepared for. and it it's part of why, again, it's it's also part of why I resisted writing a lessons book. It's like maybe that's a lesson, but I think, you know, the most important thing you can do to to, you know, most important I think was it Aristotle or Socrates was like, I cannot teach anyone anything, I can only make them think. and I think that's true, you know, and that's that's what

Matt Considine (1:01:53)
Yeah.

Zander (1:01:56)
I hope that's what I hope this story does is it inspires people to recognize like no one can tell you how to do it. You just have to do it and you have to feel it and you have to be in it and you have to be willing to embrace that pressure. and then it really ties in, I think, with this lesson at the end of the book, which Ron was, you know, he's preached to me from the beginning, and not just preached, but not really preached even. It's it's more embodied, you know, this idea of, you know, treating people with kindness.

he's he's a Christian man, you know, a man of faith, and and kindness is a big thing for him. And I think that you know, in a in a culture of kindness, the pressure is not crushing. You know, if if if if you treat people with kindness and respect and you understand that people are trying to to figure things out, i it allows the the truth to breathe, which is that innovation and doing anything hard takes time and a lot of

trial and error and a lot of failure. And, you know, if we if we come at it from the perspective of, you know, everyone's trying their best, you know, let's be supportive and let's be kind. I think not everything works out, but I think, you know, in general things are better. And I I I do like to think that that's maybe part of the reason why I was el elected captain. Because I remember, you with New Club, look, you know, Nuke, there's a lot of great things about New Club. There's also some stuff that's not as great about New Club and things that are, you know, you guys are working to improve every day. And I think I was out at some event,

And in you know, at the green with a couple guys and I I heard someone talking about like, you know, kind of complaining about like this, this and this. And I just sort of said, I was like, dude, well what's the solution? Like let's try and figure it out. You know, like let's let's we know this isn't perfect, you know, but let's let's try and let's talk about it. Let's talk about how it could be better, you know, and I I think that's maybe part of what's missing from a lot of the discourse today is you know, it's very easy to talk about how bad things are. It it takes

kind of a visionary leader to say like here's how it can be better, here's where we're going, you know, here and and really paint a picture of like, you know, where are we headed? and, you know, what what does a better future actually look like? Anyway, I go on and on about that, about like AI and stuff.

Matt Considine (1:03:51)
And something no, and well,

exactly. And something that you mentioned throughout with Ron and Apple is there there is this there there's no shortage of ideas and there will always be critiques and criticisms and even w inside JCPenney with that element of the story. But the great leaders not only I think

embodied that visionary leadership and had that image that people could see, they knew what to take good ideas, but to match them up with timing and phase them into a sequence. Because I think I've I've learned that it's like, man, you can take a really great idea, but put it either three steps too early or four steps too late and it's trash. And it actually, you know, hurts the experience.

And and so that that's really a a synthesizing that's difficult for for the human mind, I I think many times is to understand it in in the context of of time and the situation and regional differences, maybe in the retail world. that's fascinating. Found sounds like you just picked up on a ton of that in in the book. I did want to give you an opportunity back to the book. You you mentioned cutting things and the process of that and how difficult

If there is there a story that you loved, cause obviously we want people to to pick up your book and get your full rundown. And I'm sure there's plenty of great stories in there. But is there a story that you loved that just had to come out of the book and did did cutting cutting it, you know, where where you sit now with the final product on shelves, di do you still feel it made it better? And do you want to share it? That

Zander (1:05:28)
Sure, yeah. I mean there there's there's there's a number I could, you know, probably speak to. I think the one that that re the ones that really strike me, it's just it's it's just it's not it's not really like a story per se. It's just it's just

I don't know. You like you trim a couple of An editor will be Well, you why don't you cut these two? You don't necessarily you've made the point. You don't need to belabor it. And I think one of the big you know, one of the biggest themes of the story is, you know, you you look at a lot of leaders, I think in in the way people talk about a lot of leaders, you know, whether it or athletes or anyone, and there's a there's a lot of like people who are motivated by like,

pain or spite or you know just like I I didn't like my dad very much, you know, and so I went and did this because I I really didn't, you know, I just wanted to spite him. And and there's stories, and I'm sure that's true in a lot of cases. You know, it it's it's a very powerful motivator. I think, you know, spite is. And I I honestly I was searching for that with Ron a little bit early on. I was trying to understand. I was like, where's the, you know, where's the pain, dude? Where did you really feel what was the thing that happened to you in your childhood that was like

I need to go achieve and do something great, thinking that it could really only be something that was like I was slighted or I was, you know, a girl made me feel stupid or something like that. But the reality, you know, the more I spoke to him, you know, his very first memory, and this does make it into the book, his very first memory is you I think he was four years old and he's in Minnesota and he's walking to kind of makes me cry to even talk about it. it's he's walking to Cornelia Elementary with his mom.

down the street from his house, and he's going there to interview to see if he can start school a year early. And he walks into the principal's office with his mom and the principal says, you know, what color was George Washington's white horse? And Ron looks at the principal and he looks at his mom and he looks back at the principal and he goes, Black.

And and it was just one of those moments, you know, I was like, he obviously was the wrong answer. So anyway, we and then you cut, you know, he walks out of the room and he says, you know, my first memory was I walked out of the room with my mom and and she kneeled me down outside and she looked me right in the eyes and she says, Ronnie, you know, no matter what happens, you know, I will always love you. And it was just this incredibly it feels kind of like almost Pollyanna, I don't know, but it it's just it's it's such a beautiful

articulation of like the you know this unconditional love that he always felt. It was just he was loved no matter what he did. And that's one story. And that is in the book. That is, you it's it's part of how we open the book. And then the one that did get trimmed a little bit was, you know, the relationship with his dad, where, you know, this he had this relationship with his dad, where his dad, you know, he his dad loved and cherished him just his entire life. And, you know, never he Ron played soccer and baseball growing up. Ron said in all the years, all of his games

His dad was a VP of General Mills, never missed a single game when, you know, I think maybe he missed one, one baseball game when Ron was a kid and was just always there. And you know, it it might seem weird to say now, but like when Ron Ron went to Stanford, you know, I I think prior to Stanford, I I don't know if Ron ha somehow had a phone. Or no, he at Stanford, Ron's dad sent him a letter every week. You know, every week, Ron's dad wrote him a letter just about what was going on at home.

And then when he graduated afterward, and all throughout his time at Apple, Ron's dad, they spoke every single day. And, you know, his dad always reminded him, you know, you you have like he wrote him a letter in 1999, and part of it does make it into the book that was like, You, you know, you have talent beyond that of anyone I know. And, you know, it's your responsibility to do something with this talent. And it wasn't like, you know, you must, whatever. It's like I, you know, I believe in you, son, and I believe that you're destined for important things.

But then he would always remind him alongside that, you know, but no matter what you do, and no matter what decision you make, mom and I will love you no matter what. And so it was this incredible blend of, you know, what I think every child needs, and everyone really needs. It's it's high standards, something to aspire to, and really incredible support. And Ron had both. He had the high standards, you know, the belief in what he was capable of, what you're, you know, but the the absolute love from both his mom and his dad that you are love no matter what you do. And

You know, I I I just think there's so much beauty in that. because I think if you get if you get that right for kids, that's kind of all you can do, right? And it's it's you you you you know, you set a goal to aspire to and then you really support them and then you have to let them go and just live their own life. and I just I think most of that made it into the book. And my dad read it and he he said that he was like, I

He's like the biggest thing I took away from it was the power of a great childhood and of great parents. And he's like, It made me want to be a better father. You know, it made me want you know, want you to come visit, you know, all these things. And that, you know, that's it's really I think it's important to both of us that that clicks for people.

Matt Considine (1:10:05)
All all that out out of a book about building

Apple retail, right? Like that's the thing about these stories is that that that I I knew you would pick up on the human storyline here, just knowing who you are, knowing how you look at golf. And that that is in anything, all these high performers that, you know, we mythologize or we idolize or we you know, they say don't ever meet your heroes, but

Zander (1:10:09)
Yeah.

Matt Considine (1:10:29)
But when you get down to it, there's always some deep motivation. You've uncovered a number of them in Ron's story, but there's a deep motivation. And then there's those lessons that are actually just applicable to life and not just, you know, retail strategy, and and how you build stores. It it's it's why I love r reading th these types of of stories specifically, is I always leave with some lesson that maybe applies to business, maybe applies to my golf game, or maybe just

applies to me trying to be a dad or me trying to be a son or whatever because most people wouldn't know that Ron Johnson or wouldn't think about Ron Johnson as a son and a father and a dad. And so that's that's awesome through line there on what you've created.

you know, the professor Zander always talks about the consumerism of golf. And I I I'm gonna ask this question on his behalf because you know, y I I I may have taken this from that early essay, because again, it's just top of mind. I read it and I know you've changed your position on it, which I'm which is such a sign, by the way, of intelligence, Zander. We've we've had

Zander (1:11:19)
Yeah.

Matt Considine (1:11:36)
A lot of people on this show over eight years and some really intelligent ones, but Kevin and I talk about what is like one of the things we respect most of those those people that we've enjoyed learning from the most. And it's really that they're they have the courage to change their mind. They have the courage to take more information and and, you know, update.

Zander (1:11:51)
Well Matt, I if if if if it

Yeah, and if if I could speak to that for a second. I mean there I I I I was kinda trying to get I I told a long story, you know, I don't know, thirty or forty five minutes ago that I was trying to get back to, you know, why I changed my mind on that stuff. But I I'll give you one just very granular example 'cause it's in the essay. You know, and one of the one of the one of the points I make in that essay is about, you know, the green versus blue text in iMessage. I don't know if you recall that. But if you ask, you know, yeah, it's

Matt Considine (1:12:18)
yeah, I I for sure. Who

who and and and let's be honest, like who doesn't experience that in their own life and be like, we got a green mark in this text chain, that's the worst.

Zander (1:12:20)
It it

Exactly. But I I think you know the point I made in that is that if you ask most people, you know, whose text is green if you're an iPhone user texting, you know, with an Android user, whose text? Is it yours or is it the Android user? Most of them would say, it's the Android user. Because we refer to them as green text, right? So we think, it's the person with the Android who has the green text, but actually that isn't true. If you look at your iPhone, when you text someone with an Android, it's your text.

as the iPhone user that turns green. And it's your text as the iPhone user when you're texting with an iPhone that is blue. And so the point is, you know, the point that I made in that essay, which was completely unsubstantiated, but was driven by my belief that Apple was a certain type of company, you know, maybe that tries to peer pressure people into using, you know, a certain thing, is that if you want to create peer pressure, the best way to do it

Isn't to exclude a group, isn't to say like we're gonna turn the Android messages user you know green, isn't to say like they're separate. It's actually to make the Android user influence the iPhone user. Where it's like if an Android user's in the chat, then the iPhone user turns green. And so then it's the iPhone user who says, dude, can you just get an iPhone so my chat will turn blue? You know, it's not you don't wanna create separation. You wanna create this peer pressure that's like, I don't want to be this thing, you know, so I'm gonna convince you to

Have an iPhone. And that was my, you know, I actually like that take a lot. When I said it and I wrote about it, I was like, this actually pretty smart. You know, it's one of those things. But I also, after talking to Ron, I just don't think that's true at all. Like I don't know what the actual truth is, but I think the actual truth is that, you know, as of 2007, when Apple released the iPhone or 2009, you know, it it it was was released in 2007, you know, people were still on data plans, right? They were still paying for data, they were still paying for texting.

And so Apple would have said, like, well, what's a way we can improve our user experience? Apple, you know, they always put the user experience first, and especially so then. And so I think what probably happened, again, I don't know, but I think what probably happened is someone just said, like, well, what if we, you know, there's free Wi-Fi kind of emerging everywhere. What if we allowed the iPhone to text over Wi-Fi? What if we created a Wi-Fi enabled system, you know, and how would we indicate to iPhone users that they're connected to Wi-Fi and that they can use it? It's like, well, what if we made their text term work?

You know, and then you'd know that the text you're sending are coming in via or are being sent via Wi-Fi, and that would give birth to iMessage. And then, you know, the green versus blue thing had really nothing to do with Android versus iPhone, but really it just had something to do with showing the user, hey, you're actually connected to Wi-Fi right now, so you can send text for free without racking up you know additional data. It's this thing that started as a pure focus on the user experience, and then five years down the line, everyone's like, Apple's just trying to separate.

you know, Android users and iPhone users, which like is a downstream effect, but I can promise you, with almost ninety nine percent certainty, even though again I've I've been wrong before and I'll be wrong again, that that wasn't what that wasn't the conversation that was happening in the boardroom, even though that's literally what I said in the essay. I think I said like it's hard to escape the conclusion that someone in some boardroom was like, hey, the best way to get someone to switch to an iPhone is to, you know, make their text message a different make the user's text message a different color.

Matt Considine (1:15:42)
Yeah. Yeah. So th the the the the nefarious approach off the bat versus the we're actually just trying to prove the experience and then there's a byproduct that maybe yeah, totally. I well, I I think, you know, you did you wrote somewhere that people don't just buy products, they buy a better version of themselves. And that's where I wanted to take it to golf because golf golf might be the most obvious example of that, right? That there's everything from the equipment we play to the the the shaft we selected, the

Zander (1:15:43)
⁓ so it's just it's just one of those things where it's like

Exactly.

Yeah.

Matt Considine (1:16:09)
membership that we're a part of, the courses that we play and are part of, to the the places we go for travel, all the logo bingo you see walking through the airport. Like, I wanted to to from everything that you've learned through this journey right in the book, like w what what would be the closest to product maybe? I don't know if we want to say company, because Apple might be one of one in terms of that. And there's probably not a lot of great comps in golf. But when let's go with just

The the the the the things that we purchase as consumers and golf that you see a very similar trend of buying a better version of yourself. You know, what what would you say is kind of that that you you observe most in golfers?

Zander (1:16:52)
Yeah, I it's a really it's a really good question. I would say, and this this kind of ties into Apple and why the Apple stores worked, actually. I think one of the things that I always doubted, I'm gonna go back to Ron a little bit and then I'll come back to the question. I I I think one of the things I always doubted when Ron would speak to me, you know, he would say, He's like, Yeah, you know, people came to the Apple store because of the people. And I was like

As the writer and the eternal skeptic, you know, my it's my job to be like, dude, people came to Apple Store because of the products. You had you know, you great products, like you know, you have the iPod, you have the iPhone, but the reality is that's actually not true. Like it it I mean, they did have great products. That that part is true. But every reseller sold Apple's products. At least in like the 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003 era. CompuSA sold them, you know, Best Buy would eventually start selling them. You know, these resellers had the products, but what really

I think what drove a lot people to the Apple store is like they just had great people. They had great people who made you feel good about coming in. You know, you feel kind of cooler being there talking to them, smart, interesting people. They were fun to talk to. They asked good questions. They knew what they were talking about. And I'm gonna tie it back to, you know, with golf, I think we are all kind of like nuts, right? Golfers are all kind of weird. We all have our own like intuitions about how our swings work.

And like, you know, like my dad will say, like, I move forward on that. I'm like, dude, what does that even mean? Like, I I you don't know what that means. I don't know what that means. But there's there are certain people in the golf world who are able to kind of like, and I'm speaking actually about one guy in particular. There's this guy, Nick, who works, he's an older guy, works at golf mart in San Rafael. And every time I go into that golf mart, Nick is like,

Talking to some guy, maybe it's my age, maybe it's my dad's age, maybe it's your age. And they're having the most like animated conversation. And the conversation isn't really it's it's about like the clubs and getting fit, but oftentimes it's more just like Nick being able to recognize, like to validate and just say, like, yeah, you know, that's exactly what's going on. And and sort of put words to like what the person is trying to say about their own swing. And I I I think it's

In a sense it like gets back to this idea that we kind of like self actualize through golf. You know, we we we we kind of I don't know, we find ourselves. and there are just certain people who

You know, they're they're they're they don't it's like they're they're they're just able to like make sense of what we're saying about our own swing to us. And once they do that, then I think sales kind of flow naturally out of that. It's like once someone creates like a true connection with you and like meets you where you are, and it's clear that it's like a relationship where you can come back in and talk to this guy, you know, there's so much magic that can be unlocked there, and it's not selling someone a set of clubs.

It's like, hey, yeah, come back here, we'll talk about your game. You know, hey, how did that tournament go? You know, how did your club you know, really getting invested in like why why are you here? What are you thinking about? What's what's going on in your mind of developing that individual one on one relationship? And so I think it you know, a lot of it's it's kind of why I, you know, I I I wonder about clubs, you know, I I my hope is that most clubs that are or most

golf brands that are doing like fittings are not on commission or, you know, are are are not doing it that way because there really is something to be said for the empower the power of like a long term relationship with someone who's fitting you with your clubs. yeah.

Matt Considine (1:20:18)
e even just simply

reading the description of of your book and I think Ron's philosophy of of serving rather than selling and then thinking about all my trips into the i store into the Apple store where like I I almost would beg somebody to sell me, you know, on something 'cause I i the the difference between going in and if I need service, I get service immediately, which is a different way to start a relationship than someone immediately trying to pitch you something that you might not need.

Zander (1:20:26)
Yeah.

Matt Considine (1:20:46)
Maybe you do, but there's kind of that weird start to a relationship where they're already on edge, you already don't have trust. But but th th the th that that started to resonate with me of like what what is it that made my experiences different? It was always that. service very clearly was built into the DNA of that place and and selling was not, but the products are great and your relationship starts to develop and it's it it's clear that that that's in there. I I

Golf could probably learn a lesson from that. i now that I'm thinking about not just buying clubs, but just like the course operators and you know, memberships. It it does become and maybe that's a part of the lesson too. It's like as as you maybe learn through your research for the book and all these years of writing it, golf has lived off a status for a long time, or so we think. But isn't it the great game at its core that

That is always kinda be the thing that endures. I don't know. I'm trying to draw another parallel from Apple, but it's it's it's likely there.

Zander (1:21:46)
Yeah. Well no, I I yeah, I think

You know, I I I'll be honest, like I, you know, my whole life when I've when I've gone into golf shops, like I really I can't it's kind of sad, like I can't name one where like I went in and like someone knew me by name. Like there's you know, there's there's there's courses there's countless courses where I've played multiple times. There's course I played in high school, there's the course I played, you know, growing up. I grew up on a golf course. And yet there was just even the public golf courses, you know, there was always a little bit of a distance between me and like the guy on the other side of the counter.

Where it's like it's so different when you walk into a place and they're yo, Zander, like what's up, dude? Like, how are you? You know? And I I think, you know, private golf is probably better about that, at really at having guys that, you know, know your name when you show up and are willing to kind of like shoot the shit with you about, you know, what's going on in your world. But I I do think that there's a huge opportunity in that, especially in this whole like AI world where everything's being automated, to bring back and and you know, try and train for

Or at least instill the type of values in people, you know, in their when they're young children that encourage them to understand like we're all at our best when you know, we're made to feel comfortable and like we're seen, you know, that someone really is recognizing us. It makes the round better, it makes our interactions with other people better. and yeah, yeah.

Matt Considine (1:23:04)
I would love and maybe this is

this is bucket list stuff, but I would love to play around in golf with you and Ron and sit there and discuss redefining the retail golf experience of of a pro shop, of a clubhouse, of the golf course itself. Like I have have you guys ever spun off on that in in your shared love of golf? It th th that I bet would be

Zander (1:23:26)
You know, surprising yes

surprisingly we haven't. but I I think, yeah, I mean Ron I think he'd he'd he'd love that. You know, he he loves he loves to talk about, you know, experience and it it's his whole thing is, you know, the power of relationships, the power of kindness, the power of truly seeing people. but again, as I as I've said, you know, I I do think a lot of that it does come back to

you know, the early the early years and the early experiences you have and the the early ways that you're treated. And I think again, you know, I I go back to this idea that as a as a parent, you know, I think it's so hard because parents are so busy. There's so much going on in your life. I mean, I I you know, you're a you're a parent, you know, CEO, you've got so much happening. But you know the power of kindness and unconditional love I think really go a long way. and

Yeah, I but yes, I I I think Ron would love to talk about, you know, how what a what cause he again, you can that that's literally how they designed the Apple store. You it was ground up. You know, it wasn't they didn't say like, let's build a store and like it you know, where are we gonna put the products? It was like, no, what's the customer's experience going to be like? And they mapped it out, you know, from the very beginning. I mean, they knew that they were trying to convert the ninety-five percent of people who didn't have Macs, you know, computer owners who didn't have Macs to

Come over to Apple. And half of them were going to be, you know, half of people in the US at the time didn't have computers. The other half were on PCs. And so they said, it's like, well, where do we need to It's like, well, where do people go? It's like, we're going to be in malls. So they located in malls. And then it said, okay, well, we're in malls, but you know, people are walking along the 50-yard, you know, walking through the mall. How are we going to get them to turn their head towards us? It's like, well, how did how does any store get them, you know, get people to turn their head? It's like by having a great window display. You know, that's what department stores did.

So they imagine that customer's journey walking through the store and imagine having like the best window displays in them all. And you know, throughout the early 2000s, Apple had these incredible window displays. I they brought in this guy, Mike Fisher, who did these amazing window displays. But it wasn't enough, you know, to have so now people are in the store. They've gotten, you know, they've walked in. It's like, well, how do we design the store from here? It's like, well, what are we really doing in here? Like, really what we're doing in here is we're launching people's relationships with Apple and with technology. And so

You know, what are you doing in any relationship? It's like, well, in any good relationship, you should be doing one of three things. You should be launching, you should be deepening, or you should be restoring. Those are the three things. Launch, deepen, restore. And so how do we do that? It's like, well, what if we dedicate the front 50% of the store to launching customers' relationships with Apple? And what if we dedicate the back 50% of the store to deepening and restoring those relationships with Apple? So the front 50% is products, you know, you can kind of learn about the products.

The back 50% is the theater where you can take classes and learn, you know, deepen your relationship with your product. Or if your relationship with your computer or Apple is broken because something on the computer broke, you can go to the genius bar and get it fixed. And so they have this whole flow imagined, just there it seems very obvious, but there's a million other ways they could have done it. But this was the very clear and very simple way. Locate in malls, have a great window display that attracts people, launch deep and restore once they're inside. And of course, this also requires hiring great people.

And giving them a very specific way, you know, a a a kind of a guard a guardrails within which, you know, they can interact with customers and use their creativity and their intuition. You know, but it all started with I think greet customers with a warm welcome and you know, uncover and kind of learn about their needs, present a solution for them to bring home today, and then fond farewell. And it was just this very simple way. And I think, you know, again, I'm I'm I I think Ron i imagining is so much fun.

You know, it'd be it'd be really fun to get him into a room and, you know, we start talking about golf and just imagine, you know, what could what could that look like? You know, if we really reimagined the club from the ground up, you know, what would that be like? You know, with a with an emphasis on serving the golfer, you know, really making it about them. ⁓ I think it'd be f I think a fascinating.

Matt Considine (1:27:07)
And I love the I mean

I mean the the the three pillars there of a relationship, launching, deeping deepening, and restoring, you can point to that plenty in in in the game of golf. And I don't think there's many closes or clubs out there that look at it that way. we certainly do. We definitely in New Club could be there's so many lessons in your story, which I'll be applying to to New Club.

I want to ask you two more questions here because this is I could go with you all day, Zander. and we need to play golf soon to pick it up. And if any members of New Club are listening, you too need to play golf with Zander because he's just, like we've said earlier, a competitor, a gentleman, but just a good time and and makes you adds a lot to your round. but but I'm curious, just in golf, like you've had this awesome golf journey. You're obviously incredibly thoughtful and reflective. Is there something that

golf has given you that you n never really knew it was giving you at the time. Like, is there something that's just not obvious, but it's the thing you look at in hindsight and you're like, Man, thank God I got introduced to golf.

Zander (1:28:15)
Yeah, I think golf, golf helped me recognize what it is to be truly passionate about something. because when I first started playing golf in high school, I remember it was kinda like, you play golf? You know, like that's weird. You know, and I'd always I don't know, I I I'm kind of a sensitive guy and I I always I've always

Matt Considine (1:28:35)
Wha what year did you graduate high school

though? There was a turning point. Okay, so it's still well your kids weren't watching Tiger at that time. They they they were still calling you names.

Zander (1:28:38)
Twenty twenty twenty twelve.

They kinda they kinda were

yeah, I don't know. Maybe I was just kind of I gave off the vibe of someone who like wasn't super confident and it was just easy to pick on. You who knows? I don't I don't you know, I don't know what

Matt Considine (1:28:53)
Golfers were golfers were

easy subjects, but I get it. I get it.

Zander (1:28:57)
Yeah, exactly. Well I don't yeah, I don't know exactly what it was, but I I do kind of remember just being like I think it was mostly like girls, man. I was like, Why are you playing golf? Like that's like weird, you know. You actually a Tiger Woods aside, you know, it's just that was just sort of the reaction to it. And

Matt Considine (1:29:05)
Yeah.

Zander (1:29:14)
I'd always really cared. I like I said, I'm a sensitive guy and I've always really cared what people thought. And I just remember golf was like the first time where people would kind of make fun of it and I just didn't care. I just didn't care. You know, I j I just didn't. I d it was just all I wanted to be doing. I was out on the course every night during the summer. you know, I've I've such great parents like redoing our backyard. I remember in the summer after my freshman year.

Matt Considine (1:29:24)
Mm. Yeah.

Zander (1:29:38)
And so the whole backyard just flowed out and w it was we lived on a golf course, a public golf course, you know, Peacock Gap, golf and country club. God blessed it. And you know, just every day I'd be out there for eight hours a day with my friend Tucker and then I'd walk back and I'd walk over like the mound of dirt to get back into our backyard. And that was just every day. And we'd you know, me and my high school buddies would talk about it all the time. You know, we wanted to we're trying to win the club championship against Marine Acad or win the the the league championship against Marin Academy our senior year and

Our high school was brand new. We were our fifth graduating class. and we did actually end up winning that championship. But yeah, it was it it really it gave me, I don't think I knew it at the time, but it it showed me what it is to truly love something where you just have no doubt. You just, you know, again, love is like pressure. It's it's you can't no one can tell you you're experiencing it, you just know. And there's no doubt in your mind. and that was how I felt about golf for a really long time. And I do think that's important because it allows you to

When you're going through life, you know, going back to our conversation about every idea has its time, right? Or doesn't have its time. And you a good idea, if it's not delivered at the right time, there is no there is no idea. It needs to be in the right moment. You know, the most important, I think, skill that people can have in life is being able to feel exactly where they are and feel the context of their moment and exactly what that moment needs. And

I guess I I guess my my

Golf demonstrated to me what it felt like to truly love something. And then I found that with I I was able to to remind myself that I was experiencing that with writing. Where I was like, I should keep doing this because there's just no doubt in my head that this is what I meant to do. ⁓ and yeah.

Matt Considine (1:31:08)
Yes.

Yes. Yeah.

that's that's yeah, I'll take it to it it's for some people it's not golf, it's something else. But until you realize what it is that lights you up inside that gives you an additional you talked about Ron waking up in the morning for the next challenge so excited. Until you realize what those things are, you don't know how to recognize what the next thing is.

And and so for right if yours was writing and you were able to recognize, wow, I'm having similar feelings to what? yeah, that golf thing that I obsess over. And and I I always call it the you know, there's a lot of people I talk to that are looking to get into the golf industry, that they want to work in golf because they feel similarly. But I always tell them what you need to make sure of is that there is that deeper sometimes I call it obsession, sometimes I call it motivation, passion.

for all of it, for the full spectrum of it. And the reason you need to make sure of that is because anything, whether you love it or not, gets hard. And so if there is that intrinsic peace for you to what you're doing, it actually becomes your ne you unique advantage. It actually becomes the thing that like, no, because I'm I'm I'm looking at, you know

the detail of this thing in a way that many, many, many people have not, it's gonna become your unique advantage in in whether that's as a competitor on the golf course or of someone that works in the golf industry. And it's same, I think, for writing and any pursuit that you take, you gotta have something that's gonna carry you through those those times. So if you don't have that light, if you don't have that spark, it's gonna get

really hard and you're probably gonna quit as as many, many have. which is fine 'cause that's part of the learning process, right? Is is failing and moving on to the next thing.

Zander (1:33:02)
Absolutely.

Yeah, it's it's it's really important to know to to just try things and do stuff. You know, I think again, action is always better than inaction. You know, just trying something and learning like I I you know, I'm paying attention to how I feel about this right now and I just don't I'm not feeling it. and again, there's no no one can tell you when something's right or when it's not. You just have to do it and you just have to you just have to pay attention to how you feel and

I I don't know how to tell someone to do that other than, you know, just to take action within your certain circumstances, within your certain context, you know, and I don't know. I I I I just I kinda think that everyone people people know what they need to do deep down. I think that's part of what writing, you know, that's why and I feel like I know that kind of innately because again I I go back to that quote, you know, good writing is the act of hearing yourself say things you didn't know you knew. and I think that's a lot of what you know, I don't know, we people need more of.

so I'm sorry man, I've gotta if you have time for one more question. I gotta run at ele eleven here, but

Matt Considine (1:33:59)
Yeah. Well I I know, I know. I I

we'll we'll we'll end with this one and it'll be we started with New Club, we'll end with it. I it well, I'll start with an apology. I I had a wonderful introduction for you, obviously, but the thing I left off the list was not only are you sitting captain for New Club Chicago, you're our club champ. and and so that was that was rude. You overcome the the the great Brian McCarty who was unbeatable in

Zander (1:34:04)
Sure.

Yeah.

Matt Considine (1:34:25)
in Chicago land for four years. so there's that. So I just had to add that to the the transcript here. Make sure it was documented that you are also club champ, which harkens back to the old days. Clubs used to do that. It was really just who's our captain? I don't know. Who's the best golfer? Who won the club championship? Okay, that's our captain. that's not how it unplayed. You have the qualities we look for in a captain. But I I just want to ask you, Zander, you've been such a great captain in this first

half the year or whatever it is already for Chicago. We do the two year terms. I know it's a it takes a community, it takes a village. There's so many cool things going on. We have a bunch of momentum. I just wanna I want to hear from you. Like what are what do you hope in this two years time, what will members then feel and say about NewClub that they may not now?

Zander (1:35:14)
Yeah, I mean it's it's a really good question. You know, it's kinda like the old the old interview question of, you know, what do you want? You know, in six months, what will

What could I have done to have made you say, like, you know, I'm the best hire you ever made?

I I Matt, I I don't nothing's really coming to me right now. I maybe it's because it's the end of the interview. I you know, I want

You I want I don't know, I want people to feel like they're a part of it. I you know, I I personally, you know, I've I've spent my a lot of my life kind of feeling like I was a little bit separate from other things. Like I just I didn't you know, I never f really felt like I quite fit in. And you know, I think that's part of why I found golf and part of what I loved about it was that I finally felt like I had a place where I fit in and like I mattered and like I meant something. And I think I I'd I'd want every member, you know, of NewClub to feel like they

you know, like they fit in in some way, like they have some you know, they have some part in the club. You know, whether it's playing at a at a medal or, you know, having having won a match play event or just, you know, having been out and had a meaningful moment on the golf course. You I just I just want people to feel like they're a part of it. And so maybe that's kind of the guiding light for me is just, you know, how do we make every every member feel like they're a part of this club? even as a club that doesn't have a physical space. you know I think I think most members would say that.

But I think there are a fair number of members who'd feel like, you I don't I I'm I'm I'm a member of New Club, but I don't know if really feel like I'm a part of it yet. And I'd want, you know, more if not, obviously all members feeling that way would be the goal. but I'd want many more to feel like they're really a part of this.

Matt Considine (1:36:41)
Literally can't think of a better answer than that. So you you wrapped us up well. Hey Zan thanks, man, for joining us today. Can't wait to pick up your book. It's shop different. We'll add it to the show notes for you guys listening, so you can order right there. And and thanks to everybody for listening. We can't do this show without you guys, both members of New Club and and listeners. If you're not a subscriber, please do. It helps the professor and I.

Zander (1:36:48)
Thank you.

Matt Considine (1:37:07)
Keep having conversations with thoughtful people like Zander. like, rate, review, shoot us an email, tell us what you hate. and and we're we're happy to to talk to anybody that's a part of this community and loves the game of golf. we'll include all those links in our show notes. And thanks, of course, to our friends at Titleist. The Bag Drop and New Club Golf Society are in partnership with Titleist. The all new GTS medals are out now, and you can get

Fit by a certified Titleist Fitter near you at Titleist.com We'll catch you all on the next one.

Zander (1:37:39)
Thanks, Matt.