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Transforming the Game with Kristina Katsanevas is the podcast for game-changers, risk-takers, and industry shakers. Don’t hate the player—hate the game? Not here. These leaders are rewriting the rules. From high-net-worth entrepreneurs, founders of Australia’s most iconic brands, and those disciplined enough to keep stacking those habits to success. We dive into the minds of pioneers innovating in media, business, fashion, sport and transformation.
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Kristina Katsanevas (01:13)
Today we're talking about winning the second half. Now I've had a few mixed emotions about this is it a midlife crisis? Is it that you're just changing up?
who you want to be because you've been living the same repetitive life over and over and it's okay or is it actually just ageism in another way because you've changed directions. So today I have two experts and I am super excited to be speaking with you both Matt Elliott and Susan Pearce welcome to Transforming the Game.
Susan (01:44)
Thanks, Kristina
Matthew Jame Elliott (01:46)
I'm stoked to be here, Kristina looking forward to this chat.
Kristina Katsanevas (01:49)
I can't wait. So Susan, if I start with you, you've been in the leadership strategy field, I see, but you actually seem to really focus on that mindset and conscious leadership. What got you into that field and why are you so driven to help those leaders lead in a different way?
Susan (02:08)
It's a little bit of a long
Kristina Katsanevas (02:10)
Quick favour, over 60 % of you that are regularly watching this podcast and enjoying it haven't yet subscribed. You know how this game works, if you could subscribe, like and follow on whatever your favourite platform is, I'd really appreciate it. thank you so much for supporting and being part of the game.
Susan (02:28)
so get the popcorn out. I think I started in the human resources leadership game, but very quickly I realised that it is impossible to get business change without getting individual change. And so was going in trying to reinvent businesses, but just finding that year after year, you'd be back with the same business doing exactly the same things.
So I cotton on to this fact that individuals need to change and not just at the superficial level, but at the heart and mind level. And I'd like to say, luckily, I was going through, you mentioned midlife crisis or quarter life crisis at the ripe old age of 27. And I found that everything that I believed was to be true about life was kind of crumbling.
down in front of me and I decided to go on my own soul searching mission, which I believed the way to do that would be to go to New York shopping. And so I looked for a conference that I could justify, you know, going there for. And I stumbled upon this conference that I had just every intention of getting the notes, but then hightailing it to New York. It was about an hour away and going shopping, but.
As I was lining up, I kind of realised what the conference was and as luck or synchronicity would have it, it was a dialogue between the Dalai Lama and leading neuroscientists and psychiatrists around the world on the nature of the mind. And I think it was at that time, through this debate that I started to see that all change happens internally and that if we can't...
Kristina Katsanevas (04:01)
Why not?
Susan (04:08)
capture and more specifically train our minds, our mindsets, our hearts, our souls, all of that, you know, internal game, then we're not going
create any change on the outside.
Kristina Katsanevas (04:22)
Yeah, you're speaking to my soul there when it comes to people and their mindset and it's their perspective of how they see things and just understanding. Matt, you would have seen this a lot. 18 years as a head coach, you're in the peak of our A-grade game here, NRL National Rugby League in Australia, Being around the top athletes and athlete yourself, mindset plays a pretty
pivotal role there. Most think it's just pure strength, speed and agility, but what's your perspective and going from being a head coach and athlete in that sporting world to now really driving this wellbeing and mental health space, what got you to transition?
Matthew Jame Elliott (05:06)
Well, there's a couple
of parts of that story, Kristina, and probably a little bit the opposite to Susan is that females tend to have better perception than males. So crisis had to find me, not me go and discover how to transition myself. And it certainly accommodated that. coming from a...
a background of subconscious conditioning where you've to work harder, work longer and that's how you achieve success. And I learned the hard way that over a long period of time that doesn't actually work. There's consequences to that. And I got very lucky. I got very lucky that I met...
Kristina Katsanevas (05:44)
Amen.
Matthew Jame Elliott (05:46)
I met a guy
called Leon Maxson who introduced me to a Deepak Chopper. I'm not going to go through that story. That's a long one. You'll have to read book one on that one. It's a funny one, but a long one. And I guess what I learned from Deepak is not even anything new about mindset, but more about what are you doing with what you already know? And he explains it in a way where you went, oh, okay.
Susan (05:55)
It's a good one.
Kristina Katsanevas (06:10)
What are you doing with what you already know?
Matthew Jame Elliott (06:13)
And yeah, and so I think that was probably the biggest thing for me is this crisis found me and then someone with immense wisdom in a very simple way gave me access to things that I had already access to. These weren't things that weren't there or didn't even know about. I knew they were there. But and once I got access to it of someone who I wasn't dumb.
Kristina Katsanevas (06:31)
Yeah.
Matthew Jame Elliott (06:37)
but no one had ever explained it to me in a way that made me understand what mindset was, what spirit was. And that really inspired me to give other people access to it, in my own way. And I think that's where my journey started in this side of things was redefining what success is and redefining...
Kristina Katsanevas (06:41)
and a training.
Yeah.
Matthew Jame Elliott (07:02)
who you're gonna be.
Kristina Katsanevas (07:04)
I think you hit the nail on the head a bit there where a lot of people get the dopamine hit of going to the conference and reading a book, watching a podcast. the next step, which is really important, is actually implementing that knowledge that you learn and the action to make a change in your life because change is hard.
Where did you two meet? You've written a best-selling book, Winning the Second Half, and it is a great read. As I'm going through it, guys, I feel like I'm sitting in a coffee shop with you both and just eavesdropping in your conversation. And even a part of it sometimes where I'm like, oh my god, yes, yes. So it's a really great, comfortable read, but it's also really relatable to, I feel more so for anyone who's, 37 to 60, you have to pick up this book.
Matthew Jame Elliott (07:38)
Cheers.
Kristina Katsanevas (07:52)
I'm loving the male female perspective here, cause you're going, okay, yeah, guys aren't all idiots and women aren't all crazy.
Susan (07:59)
love that.
Matthew Jame Elliott (07:59)
really what it was, and I mentioned Leon Naxson who owned Hay House Australia and Susan's a Hay House author and through my business The Change Room we were doing podcasts and Leon suggested that we do a podcast with Susan and myself and Anthony Minicello who's an ex high level
NRL player, we did the chat with Susan on our podcast and Susan got offline. I won't use the swear words Mini use, but he looked at me and went, yeah, holy dooly, that's dead set like talking to you, but a female version. So it was really interesting. And then we start to engage Susan through the business and particularly the leadership side of things. yeah, momentum just went from there.
Kristina Katsanevas (08:33)
Yeah.
So two years in the making, how did you guys navigate writing a book together? Like, I feel like it would be a bit more difficult and the way it's written, like I said, I feel like I'm in the coffee shop with you. And so that's actually a thought that went through my mind is how did you guys write it?
Susan (08:58)
I often say that writing a book is like any form of art, even like a painting where there's just layer upon layer upon layer. And I think it was a combination of a lot of conversations and probably most of the conversations were around the format of the book. And we probably had five different versions before we settled on the dialogue. But in the end, the dialogue just made so much sense because
the book got written through so many different discussions and then kind of going, well, Matt, you go away and write that bit and I'll go away and write that bit. And so the dialogue actually came together at the end. But when you look back at it, the process was just exchanging views on things. And I think we really wanted to take that female versus male lens. And I was probably expecting there would be a lot of differences that.
surfaced from that. And there was some, think, you know, just even that first response for how Matt got called to things through a crisis and how I got called to, I suppose, my journey through more of an expansion. And we find that in the book, even when it comes to this midlife reinvention, men are more likely to come to midlife reinvention through
Kristina Katsanevas (09:50)
Bye.
Susan (10:12)
loss of something. you know, loss of health, loss of marriage, loss of relevancy at work. And for a lot of women, it can be that. But we found and we did a large survey that kind of supported this, that women were more called towards an expansion, you know, just a feeling that this can't be all there is, there must be something else and there's something in me that's want to grow, that wants to explore, et cetera. And so
Kristina Katsanevas (10:28)
Good.
the cab y'all.
Susan (10:39)
We found a lot of commonalities between the genders, but then some differences too that I think just like really encourages some great conversations, whether it's with your partner or with the female males that are in the workplace together. yeah, was an enjoyable process.
Kristina Katsanevas (10:56)
So I did notice you did go through in your book, page 24, where you're talking about, priorities, but values for women in the early years and then let's go mid on and then how it differs for the men, which is what you're talking about there, which from the early to the mid could be seen as generalist, but it does relate to most because it is reality most of the time where just to give an example,
For women, they're thinking about their independence in their career or their family and fitting in an attractiveness. But then later it's more about that personal growth or self-esteem happiness. But for men, you're focused on the wealth and the adventure and achievement But then later on, and this surprised me a little bit, it made sense as I was reading it, it's more about
the spirituality about the family and where there was a part in the book where you talk about, men actually like really gravitate to their grandkids because it's almost like they're making up time. That intrigued me there. with this, what are you trying to help people with? Because I haven't really seen much that talks about this sort of transition in life. And is it to bring awareness
Or does there need to be awareness because isn't it just like doing a major change in your 20s, you do a major change in your 40s but you're seen as having a midlife crisis? why is that?
Matthew Jame Elliott (12:14)
I think the thing attached to it is as you get into the book we have tips and strategies that you can bring into your life, things that you can do, tools I like to call them and you know as someone who's actually
Kristina Katsanevas (12:23)
Yeah.
Matthew Jame Elliott (12:26)
Because we're subconsciously conditioned in different ways and white Australian males in particular with my hair colour, we're taught to serve and that's what we are here for. You need to bring wealth and when you get to a stage where you start to question that, why am I doing this?
Yeah, and what's the purpose for it? And it was a really good analogy that you brought up is that's why we do connect. I love my daughters. I got four daughters and I always made time for them, but I must admit I connect more to my grandkids than I did because I consciously am thinking, I don't want to miss this time, because you miss a lot of time. And you get to that point of vulnerability in life where you know things have to change, but to what?
Kristina Katsanevas (12:59)
Yeah.
Matthew Jame Elliott (13:10)
And does that mean that my life is now insignificant? That I'm not generating this income that I used to generate? That I'm not someone who goes to work and is seen as important? And there's a great deal of vulnerability that goes with that.
or what I'm doing is important. doesn't matter what trade you're in. what men need in particular are tools to make the adaptation, just redefine what's going to happen in life
Kristina Katsanevas (13:25)
Enjoy your meal.
Matthew Jame Elliott (13:34)
You just need to become aware of it and start to, what are you going to do with that awareness? because they, know, white Australian males, for example, the stats in mental health and the really bad side of it aren't great. And there's real evidence from the survey that Susan and I did that men are continuing to struggle. And that's why we look for spirituality. Because all of a sudden we go, there must be something more to life.
Kristina Katsanevas (13:58)
yeah, what's next? And I've seen that a lot when it comes to professional athlete where athletes peak at such a young age and you've been in that high performance that when you hit your pinnacle people go their whole career and it's the same.
sports manager on and he's actually creating a program for executives as they're retiring and coming out because they're having the same mental depression of that he's seen in the athletes. They come out, they finish at the Olympics, also professional footballer I've interviewed where once you're done, you're done and they're like, well hang on, now what's next? And they feel like they're hitting the ground again. Same with executives as they're coming to their...
50s and 60s they're having the same mental depression so what are some of the tools that you're encouraging people to even consider that they might already have in their back pocket but let's get started
being aware.
Susan (14:49)
I think the first one is just to even stop and just take stock and realise that the second half is a different phase. I think a lot of people jump.
to that conclusion of it's a midlife crisis. But when you look at the characteristics of what happens in this phase for both men and women, it's reflection. It's looking at the things that have been really great in the second half, but questioning is everything right for me to keep going along this path in the second phase. And when you look at that process, what a great process to be involved in all the time. And what we're really encouraging people through the book
Kristina Katsanevas (15:05)
Bye.
Susan (15:29)
you don't just drift into decline, like the second half doesn't mean you're drifting into decline. You can take a very proactive and a strategic approach to how you want your second life to be. And so there's very practical tools around, know, this might be the types of things you need to look at for your physical health or your mind fitness, et cetera. But one of them is just getting your mindset straight around. It's not a drift into decline. It doesn't also have
Kristina Katsanevas (15:32)
Yeah.
Susan (15:59)
to be you going hard to achieve the peak and leave nothing on the table whatsoever, but it's up to you to define what winning the second half looks like to you. So for some people, it's slowing down, it's enjoying more time in nature, it's maximising space in their lives and that's really great as well. So just that stock take and defining what...
winning the second half would look like to you, I think, is a really great place to start with that self-awareness.
Matthew Jame Elliott (16:29)
I'd add to that, Kristina, what Susan and I have found, we're stuff for some really large government organisations and corporates, and I would love to say I've got this amazing strategy that I developed, leadership pathways, it's so good. But in the last three or four years, I've noticed it's the simple stuff that has the biggest impact. Like, we turned around...
a government survey in one hospital that we worked in by huge amounts. And you know what we did? We told leaders to get out and say hello to their staff for an hour every day. Wow, how amazing is that? Like everyone faints. So when you talk about what are the tools that you can have to redefine and recreate your identity, because that's what we're doing is that for me, my identity was...
Kristina Katsanevas (17:04)
Yeah, right.
Matthew Jame Elliott (17:15)
attached to what I did, right?
Kristina Katsanevas (17:17)
Mm-hmm.
Matthew Jame Elliott (17:17)
And even people still call me coach and I was resistant for that for a while. You know, don't know, I'm going to do that. I'm proud. I can be proud of it, but it's not who I am. It's what I did. And so having tools about this really weird thing where if you shut your eyes and breathe for a while, 80 % of external stimulation to your brain disappears. Now someone made that weird, right?
Kristina Katsanevas (17:18)
Yep.
Yep.
Matthew Jame Elliott (17:40)
If you block your ears, you're in the 90s. So you're just giving that brain a rest. Things like Susan said, walking, talking to other people, having conversations like this, it's healthy. But what we've done in modern life is we've depiratised all that. That's not important.
Kristina Katsanevas (17:40)
you
Yeah.
Matthew Jame Elliott (17:56)
And what we've, I I gave you one example, I can give you 15 of just things that have happened in places we've gone where I've just got away and gone, holy shit, I can't believe that. And that's all we did. All we did, you know, what about my amazing strategy? So all the tools aren't things that are gonna cost you
Kristina Katsanevas (17:56)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Matthew Jame Elliott (18:14)
Yeah, you know there's other things that aren't, but it's easy to share, but you've got to habit stack these things into your life if you actually want to make a
Kristina Katsanevas (18:23)
you guys are really going back to basics. What I liked Susan, where you just said, it's different. It's different for people. for someone who has been elevated in their nervous system. They've been in a high, a highly driven, a high stakes environment for the last 15, 20 years. Their idea of their second half might be going, actually, I want to
relax, I want to close my ears and my eyes and I want to coast in. Others that feel like they've had so much more potential but have been playing it safe
and then they go, I'm all in, that's okay too and I think that's good to bring awareness to people to go. If you see someone who's going full throttle, they're not necessarily having a breakdown or anything, they're just going, I want to make the most of my life but then equally if you see someone slowing down, that doesn't mean they're...
they're getting old and losing their touch it means that they're finding what is actually important to them.
Susan (19:17)
And I think that really hones
in on there that message of the second half should be celebrated as a time that is joy and fulfillment as defined by you, not as defined by all of the obligations you've got, the things that society says we have to do. And I think when you talked about those early life compared to post midlife,
priorities, you'll see the early life ones are the ones about being in that builder phase of, you know, finding the partner, having the family, getting the house, all of those things. And so there's almost like a prescription for what does good look like in And that can get
confusing that life is about the doing and the ticking. And I think the exciting part about the second half is that you've now got permission to design it exactly how you want it to be. And it doesn't have to measure up to anyone's standards. It doesn't have to look like the person next to you. And I think when we reach this age of wisdom, we are more likely to be a little bit bolder and more
doing something that truly is about us and not about what's happening around us.
Kristina Katsanevas (20:28)
if we go to the leadership side of things and the most success you've seen in teams and companies you've been in was going back to basics of getting leaders to actually connect with their teams. What part of AI and where technology is going do you think is going to play here and how can people try and stay ahead?
to embrace it, but also not lose a self of identity worth or just to keep relevant.
Matthew Jame Elliott (20:52)
One of the analogies I use with this Kristina is that when humans first started using fire, we had a really good application for it and a really bad one. And then we worked out how to make steel and there's some really cool stuff that we can do with steel and there's some bad stuff. Well, I think AI is that multiplied by 4,027. And I love it. I got introduced to it really early and...
Kristina Katsanevas (21:19)
Yeah.
Matthew Jame Elliott (21:20)
I've got a really healthy curiosity about it.
there's some incredible applications in AI around health, around connection, around expediting things to give us more time. I can't believe how many people are burnt out and fatigued with this new technology. It just gives us the opportunity to do things at a greater speed, in my opinion.
The sad side of it is like the fire and the steel is the poor application of it and hopefully we get the balance of that right and understand that look that's not something that's helpful for us as a species. It is something that I find as a 60 year old man, find it like so, I love it. I find it so unreal. Things that used to take me two hours to do a report takes me two minutes.
Kristina Katsanevas (22:08)
Yep, the productivity uplift is massive. I did see a funny quote, which says, are smart enough to invent AOI, dumb enough to need it and stupid enough that we don't know if we've done the right thing. And I just giggled because I'm like, that's so true.
Matthew Jame Elliott (22:09)
Why would you resist that?
Yeah.
Susan (22:20)
⁓
I love
it. I think ⁓ it's so much too about that using that word balance.
Matthew Jame Elliott (22:24)
That's a beauty.
Kristina Katsanevas (22:26)
so happy.
Susan (22:31)
I often use AI to go, what are some ideas for doing a workshop?
But I've always done that, but it's usually with friends when we're out walking, go, hey, have you got an idea for an icebreaker with this thing here? And I think as long as we don't lose the physical, the connection part of it, whether it's connecting to our own creativity or it's connecting to other people, then I think it's great to use just getting that balance
Kristina Katsanevas (22:58)
I'm glad you both said it and you're both engaging with it because in the second half and people of all ages, I've come across feeling more relevant or how do I stay relevant in today or in my workplace because these younger ones are coming up producing great, great information, data content.
but it's actually AI driven. I say to anyone who's not embracing it yet to get on board So when you wrote this, and if anyone is having
bit of a, I'm not going to say midlife crisis, I just disagree with that. I think if you want the motorbike, go buy the motorbike because you don't want to do it when you're 70. And I think if you want to travel, go travel because you're not going to take the money to the grave, but be reasonable and responsible when it comes to your assets. So I don't like when people judge people because they're going that next level and actually stepping up in their life. But did you come across that in doing all these surveys that there were people that
maybe intimidated or threatened because people are trying to live their best life and live life is a motto I use all the time and have for years and years and years to those that are very comfortable and go I don't want change, I don't want anything new, I like my house, my nine to five and this is what I do every day.
Susan (24:16)
think probably the most surprising part of the survey was not particularly answering that question, but just that it is very split between the amount of people that are thriving in the second half and the amount that are just in survival and nearly half.
of people and we interviewed 600 people equally of both genders, nearly half are just in survival mode with their life. So still, you know, stuck in that builder phase where find, you know, we found through the survey that a lot of people, you mentioned 70 years old, it's too old to, you know, maybe go out and get your first motorbike, but the survey actually revealed that the happiest group
Kristina Katsanevas (24:44)
That's all.
Susan (25:00)
were actually in their seventies. And you know, for that, that is too long to delay happiness. There's always been this U shape for happiness where, you know, in our thirties, happiness.
starts to dip, but it usually in all of the research shows that it starts to raise itself at about 40 to 50. And now our survey is saying 70. So it really is, yeah, there's a lot of incentive, I think, for people just to be thinking about, do I really want to delay living my best life to that time? And how can you pull that curve forward?
Kristina Katsanevas (25:39)
Yeah.
Matthew Jame Elliott (25:39)
I don't
want to be too cynical, Matt, in this one or conspiracy theorist, but I think there's enough evidence is that our communities understand that we're a fear-based species, right? Because we have to be. So how does the news engage us? It gives us great news, doesn't it? It lets us know that there's so many good It uses How do politicians
They use fear,
you know, and big organisations, So when you get to a certain age, there's an accumulation of that, that you're carrying with you, right? That you've loaded up on, and then all of a sudden the things that you've used to validate your purpose in life, like your income, your role, you can see that it's coming to an end, you get scared.
There's real evidence of this. And is it real fear? It's real fear, yes, but is it based on real threat? No, there's no tigers or lions walking down our streets and we're very lucky that we live in a country that we've got access to so much, but people in my orbit live in fear because...
Kristina Katsanevas (26:27)
Mmm.
Matthew Jame Elliott (26:49)
you know it's exactly what you said about the holidays. can't go on holidays, why not? Well I've only got you know $160,000 in my bank account and I've got to live to you know this But I know it sounds like a joke but it's the truth and
Kristina Katsanevas (27:05)
Yeah.
Matthew Jame Elliott (27:05)
And we've got to break free of this fear-based community that we live And again, it's a hard thing to do because we're conditioned that way. So we've got to consciously make decisions to go, you know If I'm going to watch the news for an hour, I'm going to do something good for an hour. So I'm going to get to 50-50.
Kristina Katsanevas (27:22)
Yeah.
Matthew Jame Elliott (27:22)
I
said this at a talk the other day that paved a fair few people. I said, look, I'm not telling you not to do this stuff, but what if the same energy and resources that got 150,000 people on Sydney Harbour Bridge, we put into homeless people? What if we did
it feels really good In that service, there's a real good feeling to it. I got a bit of resistance to this, I must admit. But I'm just trying to consciously in my life go every time I'm validating my behaviour through perceived threat, I'm going to actually do the opposite for the same amount of
Susan (27:54)
Makes a real difference though, because the other thing we chat about in the book is that just through having a positive mindset and being committed to that positive views about aging even, adds seven and a half years to your life. So that's pretty hard.
Kristina Katsanevas (27:55)
But
Susan (28:11)
facts around that this is not just woo woo, think yourself happy type of stuff. This has real impact in terms of longevity. And we talk about some of the mindsets that are actually really great for aging and they're things like having a sense of adventure. They're things about living a life of gratitude and kindness and curiosity is another huge one
like a really big difference I guess you know everyone can see the people and we can see it in ourselves in survival living a threat-based life but it is a choice to actually go I'm going to adopt some of these mindsets every day and instead of whinging about the government I'm going to look around and be grateful for the sunrise or whatever else is around me all of that can be trained.
Matthew Jame Elliott (29:02)
Can I just challenge you Susan on that one too, the mindset thing and it's obviously where we work. It's not mindset, it's body set. Because if my mindset's thinking in fear, my body's creating the hormones of fear and it's impacting me in that way. So it's gotta make sense to people then.
Kristina Katsanevas (29:03)
Okay.
Susan (29:04)
Yep.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Matthew Jame Elliott (29:20)
that if I'm coming from a place of joy and happiness or whatever you want to call it, woo woo, inspiration, whatever word fires you up, you've got to understand it's a body set that you're doing. It's not just your mindset. It impacts every single cell in your body. So why wouldn't you use that?
Susan (29:20)
Yeah.
Yep.
Kristina Katsanevas (29:33)
Yeah.
And
that's the easy question there is going, wouldn't you just make the choice? They always say, being negative and playing the victim is hard. And then also being this survivor over and looking at the positive is so hard. Both are hard. Just choose your hard. Why not look to the positive? And like you said, Matt, so many people have been habit stacking their whole life.
on and then viewing the negative and watching the news and blaming the government for why their bank account only has $160,000 in it when they thought that they'd be retiring and living off the pension. But it's about making a very conscious choice on how you want to live your life out, what's happiness mean for you and you get to choose that and I think that's on a very hard and important
mission you guys are on to go you actually have the choice but Matt you've lived your life quite influential coaching and you've had to influence a lot of athletes
what is your superpower there that you would consider of how you're helping others and why people driven to you for help.
Matthew Jame Elliott (30:44)
Well, I've done this really well and I've done it really bad. All with the same intent. Not because, I went through a stage where Kristina I thought it was, I'll give you all the information, all the strategy you need. You know, all the techniques, you know, this is what you need to do. This is how you need to spend your time on the field. And there's, like, I can be really enthusiastic about that. I still got to stop myself doing it.
But I love a quote, is people don't remember what you tell them or what you do, they remember how you made them feel. And there's an amazing coach in rugby league, who's I think in the mid 70s now, he makes his players feel good.
Kristina Katsanevas (31:12)
Yeah.
Matthew Jame Elliott (31:21)
I don't know, I can talk about longevity here. I don't know if you've ever been to any of the blue zones, which is the highest concentration of people over 100 in the world. There's five of I've not been to Okinawa in Japan, but I've been to Ikaria in Greece and Sardinia. Have you ever been there? Have you ever been to Greece?
Kristina Katsanevas (31:42)
Well, I've been to Greece a lot and it's just there's something magical. say this, there's magic in the sunshine, there's magic in the water, there's magic in the food.
Matthew Jame Elliott (31:52)
Yeah, well, if you go there at lunchtime, for example, you can't go there and feel bad. There's people everywhere. You don't even have to say a word. I can't even speak Greek, right? But you feel good. So there's evidence around our planet, right, that the accumulation and the combination of this...
Kristina Katsanevas (31:59)
Okay, great.
I'll have to teach you some.
Matthew Jame Elliott (32:13)
body set or mindset as we'll keep calling it can actually create collective momentum. Susan and have got evidence of that in the work that we've done, but it's everywhere. it's a decision that may as well start with you. as well start with you, Kristina Because you go somewhere and you're not happy, I know he said a swear word there, and you're upset,
People catch that off you. And it's far easier to be angry than it is to be happy.
that's what Susan and I are trying to share in the book that is, is that you have access to this stuff. Do it.
Kristina Katsanevas (32:51)
Do it, do it and start, you can start with the book. Like the book's a great read and I think it's great for you and if you've got a partner, get your partner to read it so that you're understanding each other's perspectives
what's your superpower when it comes to influencing people and why are people drawn to you to change their mindset?
Susan (33:10)
I think from back in the day when I had the quarter life crisis, which I'll call a quarter life reinvention now, and you know, just that path that it sent me on was really about training myself to be present. And that's what I've ended up being the core of what I teach leaders, because even from that point of view of, know, we always hear in staff,
surveys that people want their leader walking the floors but they don't want a distracted leader walking the floors that what they're actually calling for
is presence. And so I think what I teach leaders is what I really try to model in myself, which I don't get right all of the time. But I think what helps me influence is just that ability to meet people where they are in the present moment without judgment that they should be somewhere else or shouldn't be experiencing the emotion that they're experiencing. But everything is just, accepted and is perfect for where they are.
right now because it's only from this point that you can actually start moving anywhere.
Kristina Katsanevas (34:15)
That's a good thing for people to think, who get stuck in the past, especially from what you were saying, is men are always maybe glorifying their past. I was doing this, I was this title, I was earning this, and they're stuck in the past. women are stuck, I did this, but I haven't done, and they're projecting the future, so it's good to go, I'm in the present, right now, my next decision, my next decision, and then you can move forward.
On that mindset, Susan, I'll have to bring up, I was reading in the book and you talk about how you met or you watched Louise J. Hay ⁓ on stage. And for me, that book, You Can Heal Your Life actually changed my life. I was given it as a Christmas present at 19. I'd gone through some pretty heavy few years and someone gave me the book.
Susan (34:48)
Mm.
Yes.
Wow.
Kristina Katsanevas (35:05)
and read it cover to cover, I didn't know it, didn't know anything. And it honestly was so pivotal in my life. And I think that changed trajectory from there on in on how I think and the power of the mind. And I'm always been very strong and advocate on the power of the mind.
So when people are playing the victim or not me gonna know you can you can turn it around your minds are powerful things So that's why I think I even resonate with both of you and got such a great energy Matt when I met you because everyone can choose to be Happy You're not sure where to start within yourself I would say pay it forward to someone else if you're looking for something do it for someone else and then
the snowball will happen. But what's next for you, Matt, you've written the book to really open up for people about winning the second half. actually thought initially that the book was more about, succeeding in career and coming from such a high performance coaching, it's about
Susan (35:47)
yeah.
Kristina Katsanevas (36:01)
This is how you get to the peak in the cream. But when you get into it, it's actually about a holistic approach in life. No longer is it about the accolades or standing on the podium at number one. So what's next for you?
Matthew Jame Elliott (36:15)
And that's when Susan and I had a good conversation around the word winning, you know, because obviously, it can mean a lot of things to different people. what we want to do is give people access to how to win their life. And when we talk about being present, it's about who are you being right now? Because who gets to, you don't get always to choose that, right? There's some stuff that can happen around you that, you get into fight or flight, which is not a bad thing.
Kristina Katsanevas (36:28)
Yes.
Matthew Jame Elliott (36:45)
when you need to be in that state. it's like you were saying before, right, is making people understand that remembered threat, that's what we call depression. And imagined threat is what we call anxiety. remembered threat is depression, imagined threat is anxiety. That's medical terms. They're not Matt Elliott's terms. I'd like to credit for it, they have real impacts, don't they?
Kristina Katsanevas (36:57)
that again.
That's good for people. No, it's still good for the listeners.
Yeah.
Matthew Jame Elliott (37:13)
We've got evidence
of that around the world. So it's got to make you think that if if there's remembered joy and imagined happiness and you experience that right now, one that makes you a better person. People want to be around you. And we know the biggest cause of longevity is human connection. Susan and I have also learned the biggest cause of productivity is human connection. AI included, you know, so it's...
Kristina Katsanevas (37:36)
Yeah.
Matthew Jame Elliott (37:38)
It's, I want to actually help people be their best self. Give them access to it because we all do.
even when it's really tough, you've got access to your best self. And all that is, is just giving people simple tools that they can bring into their life. Simple awareness. Like, how do I feel now? Well, I feel nervous. Why? Because, you know, and then once most people have the answers right here, but we externalise everything, we become experts in external things.
Kristina Katsanevas (38:09)
Yeah.
Matthew Jame Elliott (38:09)
you know, and
what we do and the places we go, but we don't have the same level of expertise in it themselves. So what Susan and I like to do with winning the second half and doing keynotes and going into organisations is to give people access to their best self. Because if your best self shows up,
Kristina Katsanevas (38:25)
I like that.
Matthew Jame Elliott (38:28)
well you're probably likely to impact other people more positively. If we get two of you to do it, well that could start to create a little bit of an environment and a culture and an energy that brings productivity and profit. We're not scared of that word either. So that's what we want to do is impact organisations and people in a way that makes them understand that it doesn't matter if you're 45, it doesn't matter if you're 65. You have the capacity to be your best self.
Kristina Katsanevas (38:57)
Yeah, that's right. that's good empowering of going you do have the capacity and it doesn't matter. It's always you've got to start today. Like there's there's you're not going to be any younger anytime soon. So you might as well start today. So is the focus then ongoing with organizations and helping and leadership or is it more individuals or it's a it's a mix of both?
Susan (39:15)
Combination of it all, think. I mean, watching it again, I go back to you mentioning about Louise Hay and that amazing book that's just sold millions and millions of copies and continues to, and just the story of how that book started was just a pure act of.
service. Louise observed some things and started writing down, know, this seems to link with this emotion, etc. Took some photocopies of what she put down, then just started handing it out to people and it kind of, it, her pure heart of service, it resonated and then it kind of took off. And so I hope our book too, because we've definitely written it from a place of wanting to provide some really useful paradigm shift
I would like for the book to show us where we need to go as well. we would love to do everything from just connecting with individuals as well as continuing our work in organisations. Because I think again in organisations at the moment, and Matt and I were talking about this yesterday, this is changing, but at the moment a lot of people who are in leadership positions in organisations sit within that age range of, you know, 40,
and above as we say it's changing and I think we need to rethink the role of wisdom in organisations like we've always valued what we talk about in the book as the fluid intelligence which is the fast recall, the being really sharp on your feet and I think we probably start to see in midlife that we develop less of that intelligence but a more stronger intelligence that's more related to wisdom.
Kristina Katsanevas (40:36)
Yeah.
Susan (40:56)
And you know when you look at the state of both the world but also business these days, what it needs is, what both of those needs is not the fast recall but really integrated wisdom to be able to navigate paths forward in a very complex world. And so just reinventing the way people think about leadership is really important to our mission as well.
Matthew Jame Elliott (41:19)
We should also mention our retreats. So we've got some retreats coming up next year in late April. we'll get some information. ⁓
Susan (41:27)
Yeah.
Kristina Katsanevas (41:28)
for individuals
or for teams.
Matthew Jame Elliott (41:30)
Well, they're
couples, teams, individuals, but really about understanding that. I'm really selfish when we do stuff like Susan explained in retreats is because I get to learn so much. I don't really feel like it's what we go and teach people. It's like what I talked about walking the floor. I didn't realize how powerful that was.
Kristina Katsanevas (41:34)
Excellent.
Mm-hmm.
Matthew Jame Elliott (41:55)
I learnt that not through teaching it but observing it and going, wow, how can that have such a huge impact? that's the other thing that excites me about going into the different environments is that just the learning that's available, particularly from young people, that's where I learn most.
Kristina Katsanevas (41:55)
Yeah.
watching the connection.
Let's stay on that leadership theme. What about when you go into these teams and it's either the leader or let's say maybe an important team member and you know or in your heart of hearts you know some people don't want to change. They don't see themselves as a problem. They're happy in what we would think is their misery but they like living this miserable life. So what's your advice to those who you go or I think you've got a chance to actually be happy but this person
I mean, me personally with God, I don't want to waste my time on you, what's your advice to people who might be in that environment who go, my God, Karen is never going to change and she's just, I don't even want to be around her, but in trying to bring a team together, how do you try and navigate them?
Susan (42:56)
Just to focus on what you want to grow, think too often the squeaky wheel or the person, the toxic person in the workplace or whoever it might be. And most of the time it's just, you know, I have a lot of compassion for those people as well because they're just driven by the fear and trying to protect themselves. But too often we give too much focus of attention to that rather than actually going with. And all you need is a, you know, a small group
Kristina Katsanevas (43:23)
Okay.
Susan (43:26)
to create some really significant change and so I just like to keep encouraging the people who are on the path to keep showing up in the way that they want to be which ends up having a ripple effect on everyone in the organisation and sometimes that's a good ripple effect i.e the person that's resistant to change will start to get influenced in some way or it kind of means that they almost get
Kristina Katsanevas (43:44)
Yeah.
Susan (43:55)
thrown out and end up self-selecting out of the organisation. I've seen that happen so many times too because they look around and just go this organisation's full of positive peets and my negativity can't get the traction anymore but it's definitely to focus on what you want to grow and if you want to grow something in your leadership then you need to be really intentional about that.
Kristina Katsanevas (44:06)
Yeah.
Okay. Matt, what would be your advice? So that's good with teams. Focus on you, don't focus on them because I think it's easy to give these people your energy because you might want to change them. You might think that you're actually enabling their behavior. But Matt, when it comes to individuals and what would be your advice if there is a, as a male, you can see that your partner
male or female, but you can see that they're transitioning, they're wanting to change and they're trying to, they're making some big life decisions. Whereas you are the more comfort person and you're happy just to keep on your little train tracks and you didn't want to ripple anything and you were happy to live the same life every day for the next 40 years and die and you actually would have been happy, but your partner's going, I need to travel, I need to try this, I want to change my career, I want to buy the bike.
Matthew Jame Elliott (45:09)
That's such a good question and it's what we do address in the book and that's one of the things that partners are experiencing when we get to this part of life, right? Because it's inevitable that we're changing. It's like, well, what do you mean what we're changing? Well, I can't play footy anymore. There's a lot of things I can't do anymore, but what can I do?
Susan (45:11)
Yeah.
Kristina Katsanevas (45:25)
Yes.
Matthew Jame Elliott (45:30)
So a lot of people spend a lot of time looking back at, and I've put my hand up here, I've done that. I've wasted years of my life looking back on things that I did and why can't I, why aren't I doing that anymore? Is that this point of transition is about that human connection that we talked about as well. Is understand what is it that you want to do?
and why and being curious, asking questions. So how does that look in our life? Are you expecting me to be involved in that? I'll support you, so one, you can get support by understanding and awareness. So you have that internal awareness first, then you have the external awareness of what does my partner want? And how does that measure up with each other? look, what...
Kristina Katsanevas (46:02)
Yeah.
Matthew Jame Elliott (46:19)
I've encountered most of the time when people have that conversation, they become supportive. When they don't have that conversation, that's where you get breakdown. I don't understand why is she doing that? have no idea. it's, know, we discussed it in the book Susan, like men don't, like you can explain menopause to a man, we're never gonna understand it. Because we're not experiencing it, right?
Kristina Katsanevas (46:25)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Matthew Jame Elliott (46:46)
but it does need to be explained. impacts of it do. And there's one little example of everything. Men should be talking to their wives. Women are so good at connecting with each other and sharing challenge. Men are so shit at it. We are terrible at it. We never do it. And you've got this.
Kristina Katsanevas (46:50)
Okay.
Yeah.
Which goes back to
your original comments that you don't really hit your midlife transition until you hit a crisis because you haven't talked about it, you haven't acknowledged it, you've been ignoring it and then bam, you're in like this crisis and then you transition.
Matthew Jame Elliott (47:22)
Yeah, and we magnify that crisis by not talking to our partners. So what happens is that relationship breaks down. You know, and if we had the vulnerability to go, you know what, can you give me a hand with this? I don't know what's going on with me. And you're not necessarily going to get the answers because I believe most of the answers are in here, are in you, but you'll get someone who's going to talk to you about it and challenge you.
Kristina Katsanevas (47:30)
Mm-hmm.
Matthew Jame Elliott (47:52)
to come up with the answer because they understand that where you are at the moment is not where you want to be because my eyes work and your vibe is not great. So I wish I had that wisdom 30 years ago.
Kristina Katsanevas (48:03)
Yeah. Yeah.
Susan (48:04)
Hmm.
Yeah, it would be great if we could have some of these midlife conversations in the same ways that couples talk about retirement plans. Like I always hear from my friends and they know exactly what holiday they need to miss because they need this much in the bank to be able to retire at this age. So clearly they've done a lot of discussions and Excel spreadsheeting. But where are you discussing?
Kristina Katsanevas (48:09)
Yeah, good.
Susan (48:37)
how you want to be, the emotional shifts that you're going through, what might happen when the female partner goes through menopause. Like that needs to be as much part of the dialogue as the spreadsheeting your finances.
Kristina Katsanevas (48:52)
Yeah, feel it's a very real topic and conversation. Even within my circles, I constantly have people going, so many people are breaking up. It's sort of you go through the whole getting together, the weddings and the breakups, and then it's the funerals and that seems to be the majors of life.
It's good to know and people should get then pick up the book and like you said Matt then just you need to have the conversation if you're noticing changes in your partner or they're being a bit more wild it's not necessarily I guess the important thing to say it's not about you.
Matthew Jame Elliott (49:22)
You look at me when you said wild.
Susan (49:26)
No, I love,
I just love how you've explained that because I think that's probably how people experience it.
Kristina Katsanevas (49:32)
it's not necessarily about you, it's about them. And so you can actually go, okay, are we aligned? Are we not aligned? You're not the same you were in your 20s anymore. We're not the same people. And sometimes that's okay as well. I think that's important for people to know that if you are on this journey, you're not crazy and you're not doing anything wrong as long as you're being kind. But...
It is a part of life and it's normal because people like to, you know, you've got to make them feel comfortable and confident that they can go talk to someone and it is okay to enjoy what life you've got left because we really don't know. You say it's the second half, you really never know.
Matthew Jame Elliott (50:11)
I'd like to think it's the first quarter.
Kristina Katsanevas (50:13)
Yeah, right. With the way technology is going, who knows? I I say that to my children. by the time you're old, there'll be body scans to say you need this much vitamins, this, this, this inject you and you'll be like this human, robotic, perfect anatomy. It'll be crazy.
Susan (50:25)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kristina Katsanevas (50:33)
Well, I'm excited. I'm excited guys. This has been a great conversation. As I said, I've really been enjoying pretending to be at the coffee shop with you both. What is something that I haven't asked that people should know about winning the second half?
Susan (50:48)
think probably the only thing would be like our intention through our dialogue. We don't kind of propose that my views are all female view, every female's view on the planet or Matt's views are every male's on the planet. But if all it did was trigger
conversation and a reflection and a thinking differently that's what we really wanted to achieve and I've had you know people that have said to me I didn't relate with this thing that you were talking about but gee it made me think about X Y and Z and I think yes that thing that we we're not experts on everyone in the gender it's our
conversation but really just designed to make people think differently about themselves and start designing life exactly how they want it.
Kristina Katsanevas (51:39)
Live life.
Matthew Jame Elliott (51:39)
Yeah,
I'll probably back that up a little bit is become an expert in yourself. And if you can be kind to yourself, if you can love yourself, if you can share those great experiences with yourself, it just elevates your capacity to do it with the people that you love and care for and the planet that we love and care for. that's what I like to see is people understand themselves even better.
Kristina Katsanevas (52:01)
Yeah, I love that. Be kind and just learn to love yourself and accept yourself. I talk a lot and have about your rocking chair moment. It's always been a thing for me. So if you're in your rocking chair, if you're really stressed or you're anxious about something, is this something you're really going to be thinking about in your rocking chair? Nine times out of 10, it's always a no. So, you know, it helps to not stress those, sweat the small stuff, I should say. I think another key thing is everyone should go to Greece.
Matthew Jame Elliott (52:29)
Well there's Okanur in Japan, we could go to Loma Linda in Southern California. Yeah. Costa Rica.
Kristina Katsanevas (52:31)
yeah, Japan.
Susan (52:36)
just started thinking, I mean I've
read about and watched the Blue Zones a lot, I think you should do a whole tour. We could do a retreat going around all of the Blue Zones.
Kristina Katsanevas (52:40)
Costa Rica, that's on my bucket list actually. That's where all your retreats have to be.
Matthew Jame Elliott (52:44)
.
Kristina Katsanevas (52:48)
Yeah. Yeah, your retreats have to be in every one of the blue zones.
Matthew Jame Elliott (52:48)
Big, let's do it.
Susan (52:53)
we should do that.
Kristina Katsanevas (52:55)
Well thank you this has been an absolute pleasure. I know that listeners are going to get so much out of it. I recommend for everyone reading Winning the Second Half. If you've got a team that you want some leadership consulting give Matt and Susan a call. If you are going through a transition yourself read the book get on their socials and start following and chat. This has been absolutely magical. It relates to more people than you know and so thank you so
much for being on Transforming the
Matthew Jame Elliott (53:23)
Thank you.
Susan (53:24)
it was great.