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"Here as in Heaven."
For more information visit : garden.church
Welcome to Garden Church podcast. We're in part two of a series on the book of Revelation. We're doing a deep dive into how to read and interpret this amazing amazing book. Enjoy.
Bill Dogterom:Well, good morning. It's good to be with you and to continue this conversation in one of the more challenging books of the Bible, especially if you already think you know what it means. When I teach exegesis I say one of the the most difficult sets of passages to interpret accurately are those that you think you already know what they mean because you don't let it say what it's actually saying. This is one of those because we've had, you know, systems and we're not new to this game. People have been trying to figure out what John's up to for two thousand years at some level and John's tried as hard as he can in the imageries that he has.
Bill Dogterom:How do you describe something that is indescribable? How do you how do you put into word pictures that will sustain itself through generations a vision that you have had that you couldn't believe even when you had it. That's why John's poetry here is just stunning in its power and audacity, I'm trying to trying to gather up and and frame this is why I'm excited about the creatives conference coming up here in a couple of weeks. Made the statement and I I believe it that it's it's the artists, the creatives who are the prophets of our current generation saying to us, seeing things that that that we look over in our highly distracted culture. Artists are those who are willing to press through the the floor of their boredom and see the wonders underneath and and invite us in into that and John does this fantastical images would have made a lot more sense to that first century audience to whom he was writing.
Bill Dogterom:They had a common vocabulary, they knew to whom he was referring, they had points of correspondence to to to their understandings and because we don't, we're we're at a bit of a loss to really get it. I really appreciate Darren's leadership in bringing us into this larger conversation for such a time as this. Because revelation isn't for somebody else, it's for us. Because it's not about the future, it's about who sits on the throne. It's not the revelation of what's going to happen to you, it's the revelation of who he is and so we are invited into that into that kind of wonder that is indescribable and and today we we circle back around, you'll have noticed already that John's style is very elliptical.
Bill Dogterom:It invites us like a like a Russian doll to keep moving into the center to discover what's going on and, we'll circle back around to a story that he's already told from different perspectives today. And the reason this matters for John is because he just knows what the stakes are. He knows that it is really easy to salute the lamb slain and then to buy stock in the Empire. He knows how easy it is to have taken advantage of the sacrifice of the lamb and then think we know a better way to execute the vision of the lamb than our own joining him in sacrifice. Remember Jesus didn't die so we wouldn't have to but so that we would know how to.
Bill Dogterom:Joining him on the cross that we bring daily as the way in which the world is going to be saved. He recognizes how easy it is, especially for the church that leverages wealth to begin to say, you know, I think I know a better way. You wonder how is it possible for the very elect, Jesus is concerned about this, the very elect to be deceived. How is that even possible? And I just want to tell you it's not only possible, it's probable and is occurring.
Bill Dogterom:Occurring. As soon as we crawl into bed with Empire we have already begun to take on the quote unquote marks of the beast. Remember forehead, arms, attitudes, actions, behaviors, echoing in a negative way the deuteronomic marker of the phylacteries that tie this word to your mind and heart. It wasn't intended to be a little box of scripture. It was intended to change how you think, how you process, right, and and how you act, how you behave.
Bill Dogterom:It's not a scroll you tie around your upper arm, it is it is the way you live. In similar ways, we get all fascinated with implants and chips and credit cards and everything else and in so doing we are distracted. I'm not going to take the mark of the beast. I'm thinking you may already have done that by virtue of the ways that we manage our money and time and so and so John is seeing this as a live concern for the church and he presses hard because he knows that the wrath of God is the mirror side of the love of God. Wrath and love are not different things.
Bill Dogterom:They are different orientations to the same thing And so he brings us into this consequential nature of what occurs and lands the plane here in terms of these judgments beginning at verse 15 verse one. I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign. Seven angels with the seven last plagues. Last because with them God's wrath is completed. I saw what looked like a sea of glass glowing with fire.
Bill Dogterom:Standing beside the sea were those who had been victorious over the beast and its image and over the number of its name. They held harps given to them by God. They sang the song of God's servant Moses and of the lamb, great and marvelous are your deeds Lord God almighty. Just and true are your ways, king of the nations. Who will not fear you Lord and bring glory to your name for you alone are holy.
Bill Dogterom:All the nations will come and worship before you for your righteous acts have been revealed. And after this I I looked and I saw in the heavens a temple, that is a tabernacle with the covenant law, and it was opened. And out of the temple came seven angels with the seven plagues. They were dressed in clean shining linen and wore gold sashes around their chests and one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls filled with the wrath of God who lives forever and ever. And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from his power and no one could enter the temple until the seven plagues of the seven angels were completed.
Bill Dogterom:Well then I heard the sound, the voice, a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, go. Pour out the seven bowls of God's wrath on the earth. So the first angel went out and poured his bowl on the land and ugly festering sores broke out on the people who had the mark of the beast and worshipped its image. The second angel poured out his bowl on the sea and it turned into blood like that of a dead person and every living thing in the sea died. The third angel poured out his bowl on the rivers and springs of water and they became blood and I heard the angel in charge of the waters say you are just in these judgments o holy one.
Bill Dogterom:You who are and who were for they have shed the blood of your holy people and your prophets and now you have given them blood to drink as they deserve. When I heard the altar respond, yes, Lord God almighty, true and just are your judgments. Then the fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun and the sun was allowed to scorch people with fire. They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of the Lord of God who had control over these plagues but they refused to repent and to glorify him. Then the fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast and the kingdom was plunged, its kingdom was plunged into darkness.
Bill Dogterom:People nod their tongues in agony and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores and still they refused to repent of what they had done. And then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the river Euphrates. The water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East, and I saw then three impure spirits that looked like frogs. They came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, of the mouth of the false prophet. They are demonic spirits that perform signs.
Bill Dogterom:They go to the kings of the world to gather them for battle on the great day of the God Almighty. And look, I come as a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake, who remains clothed so as not to go naked and shamefully exposed. So they gathered together the kings to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon. The seventh angel then poured out his bowl in the air and out of the temple came the loud voice from the throne saying, it is done.
Bill Dogterom:Then there came flashes of lightning, rumbles, peals of thunder, and a severe earthquake. No earthquake like it has ever occurred since humankind has been on the earth. So tremendous was the quake, the great city split in three parts, the cities of the nations collapsed. You see God remembered Babylon The Great and gave her the cup filled with the wine of the fury of his wrath. Every island fell fled away.
Bill Dogterom:The mountains could not be found. From the sky, huge hailstones, each weighing a hundred pounds, fell on people, and they cursed God on account of the plague of hail because the plague was so terrible. Wow. This is the word of the Lord. This is the word of the Lord and it is it's challenging at at every level.
Bill Dogterom:Right? Because the images are so grotesque and so powerful and so overwhelming and and we're already trying to do, is it CGI? Is there what's what's what's going on here? What is he actually seeing? And John saying, no.
Bill Dogterom:No. No. No. Don't get caught up in the discrete bits and pieces. Don't be trying to analyze the hows and the wheres and the why because you'll miss the whole point.
Bill Dogterom:The whole point is that God has been on the move since creation with love flowing forward and his love has been such that it allows you to not receive it. His love has been such that he will allow you to rebel against the reality shaped by love. But sooner or later, you will box yourself into the box canyon of your own refusal to be loved and he will not love you enough to pretend that that no longer matters. He can't. It's a violation of his nature, a violation of his love.
Bill Dogterom:And so, what we are seeing here, because remember we've talked about this before, that wrath and love are not opposed. They are they are two sides of the same coin. I've used this illustration, so forgive me for boring you with it again, but of this white water rafting where whereas you get your canoe, your kayak into the water and and and if you're heading downstream you receive the flow of that mighty river as as as blessing to you, you receive it as a gift to you. But if you get sideways to the river or if for some reason you decide you want to paddle back upstream the flow of the river will be oppositional to you, it will capsize your kayak. The flow of the river has not changed.
Bill Dogterom:That's the love of God. Orientation to it determines whether you receive it as blessing or as oppositional in curse. That's that's wrath. So again, if you are I'm supposed to say that again. So, if this the flow of that river is the is the love of God.
Bill Dogterom:It is mighty, it is powerful, it is overwhelming and if you get sideways to that, if you if you were in the flow of it, you'll receive it that way. But, if you get sideways to it, if you resist it, if you rebel against it, the same flow of the river will tip over the boat of your life. And, if you're paying attention, you will repent. You will get back in your boat and head downstream but if you're proud, having thought you knew a better way, and received the capsizing as inconvenience, you will get back in the canoe and keep resisting the flow of the river until finally the river wins. Love wins.
Bill Dogterom:Love And that's what we're seeing here. As we get to these in chapter 16, you will see how it works out but it doesn't begin there. It begins with this great marvelous sign, this vision, these last marks of the wrath of God being completed. We start with this glowing sea of all of those who are who are the the nations and standing beside it, those who have are not complicit with the economy, the socioeconomic, political, and especially the religious and spiritual economy of the beast, that that system. We've spent so much time to figure out what's the who is no no no no no no no.
Bill Dogterom:You're you're missing the point. That the very elect can be deceived. So he's saying here, here, here, they are standing. Look at these ones who are standing. They have been victorious over the beast.
Bill Dogterom:They've been victorious over the over the number of name. They have recognized it. They figured out the riddle. Oh, it's the number of a man. Oh, easy peasy.
Bill Dogterom:I don't I don't need to be screwing around with this stuff. I can just let her go. I can let it go. There's no power to this. There's no superstition that I have to pay attention to.
Bill Dogterom:I can't I can't manage the ways of the kingdom other than in the way of the lamb slain. And any pretensions of power, pretensions of strategy other than that will inevitably result in the capsizing of the boat of my life. They are holding harps, these ones who have not sold out, these ones who have not tapped out, and remember, by the way, the pressure to sell out is enormous. You can't buy or sell. You have no place in the economy.
Bill Dogterom:There are records of children being taken from their mothers and fathers who refuse to disown Christ because they have proven thereby to be inadequate parents. Just think about that dad, think about that mom. You have to choose between Jesus and your kids. That's what the beast requires of you. God doesn't require that of you.
Bill Dogterom:That's what the beast requires. And, the heartbreak and I get it Can you feel the tension? You feel the tension is what we see happening. These ones are are are are when, oh lord, when are you when is justice going to occur? When are you gonna right the wrongs?
Bill Dogterom:When are you going to do this final judgment? And they sing this great song, great and marvelous are your deeds Lord God almighty. Trust just and true are your ways. You alone are holy. Who will not fear you and bring glory to your name?
Bill Dogterom:Your righteous acts have been revealed. You need a big God to deal with the big problems that our disobedience has created. And the challenge, always the challenge of worship is that we tame Jesus. I love the songs of intimacy, I love the songs of Jesus is my best friend, I love the songs, I love the songs, Jesus is my homeboy. I'm with Jesus.
Bill Dogterom:For every one of those though, we need a song that says bow on your faces. Chew the dirt. Not in fear but in a deep and profound awareness of his greatness, glory and goodness. I'm still campaigning, I think I'm gonna die with this on my tombstone, that awesome needs, can only be referring to God. Not a hamburger, not your girlfriend, not your truck, God.
Bill Dogterom:Right? Because he is an awe filled God. Any other God is not adequate to the conditions that we have done, to the things that we have done, he's unable. So so this is the image and you'll notice again it's the song of Moses. We're gonna be playing with the plagues if you will and that imagery brings us into this current moment and we see that again in verse verse five, this tabernacle opened and the awareness of this covenant law now is anchoring us back into the 10 words which remember were were given to us so we knew how to play the game.
Bill Dogterom:This is this is what alignment with love is. Don't don't have any other gods before me. He's not saying that out of his insecurity. He's saying that because there's no other gods. When you have another god before him, you're stepping into unreality.
Bill Dogterom:He's just saying, here's a way here's a way something you might wanna think about. Don't worship any other gods. Here here's another one. Write this down. Don't have any graven images.
Bill Dogterom:Why? Because because God doesn't like any portraiture? No. Because you're his image. When you create graven images, it's not God you're dissing, it's you.
Bill Dogterom:You lose your place. You step into unreality. Nothing is capable of imaging God the way you are. And on and on the list goes. How do you love God and how do you love yourself and how do you love your neighbor?
Bill Dogterom:And when we don't do that we aren't punished because we got it wrong. We're not punished for our sin, we're punished by it. The wheels come off. Our life doesn't work. When you step into unreality you can fight against gravity all you want but sooner or later gravity is gonna win.
Bill Dogterom:That's the 10 words. That's the wrath of God. And so here we have these this this kind of connection way back to the beginning, all the way through and into this this this this moment and now we have the wrath of God, this consequential outcome from rejecting love in these seven pictures. And you know, John is coming back at this. These these are not we've looked at seals, we've looked at trumpets, that they are not seven different things, they are all the same thing but from different perspectives.
Bill Dogterom:Alright? This is the perspective from the heavens. This is the in each of the previous iterations we've gotten to seven and it's not finalized. Right? But now this is the last.
Bill Dogterom:This is it. This wraps it up. The three perfect judgments. Right? And we are brought to this this space, these seven bowls.
Bill Dogterom:In the first one, notice how the first four are environmental. The air, the water, the land. Please notice the earth is completely cooperating with the love of God in rebellion against what we have done to it. That's what's going on there. Remember Sodom and Gomorrah?
Bill Dogterom:Remember how God's attention was drawn to what Sodom had had become, this city of inhospitality? And and who who drew that to God's attention? The dirt did. The land upon which Sodom was built said, hey, are you gonna do something about this? This sucks for me.
Bill Dogterom:Bring it. Burn them out. Right? Not not in some kind of but in awareness that this is gonna the contagion is gonna spread. Or or here, Cain and Abel, from chapter four, we should have figured it out.
Bill Dogterom:Who who ratted out Cain? The dirt did. The ground that has absorbed the jealous rage of Cain says, Are you gonna do something about this? We ought not be surprised. Paul tells us in Romans chapter 12, the earth itself right now is in travail.
Bill Dogterom:We got a glimpse of it during pandemic a few years ago. You remember? When the world put us on time out for a little while? We all had sit on our hands for a year or so? Did you notice how the air began to breathe again?
Bill Dogterom:People living within a hundred miles of the Himalayas who had never seen the tallest mountains in the world were finally able to see what was in their backyard. The earth began to breathe again and here we have microplastics in the ocean. Do you really think the ocean is gonna put up with that? That's what we're seeing here. These these are these are not wrath that that comes independent of the entity itself.
Bill Dogterom:Water, the the land, and then the air with this this stunning, depiction of of the wrath of God and notice what it says, notice what it says, the angel in charge of waters verse five, you're just in these judgments o lord. Nobody can say you didn't give them a chance. Nobody can say mercy ran out. Nobody can say that. Nobody can say that.
Bill Dogterom:They've had every every opportunity. Every opportunity. And notice in each of these instances there's still the possibility and the heartbreak, the heartbreak that seals the deal is that even with the awareness of what is going on there is still no repentance. We still think that we can out game the system. We still think we can do an end run around the love of God and still complain and we discover that we're wrong.
Bill Dogterom:We're wrong. That by the way is what how deception works. I figured out a way to game the system. And then the last three plagues shifts gears here a little bit and begins to set us up for the for the final battles and the final wrap up operations where the fifth angel's pours has bled because on each of these, by the way, you've noticed, it's on the people who have signed on with the beast. Those who have become complicit with the socioeconomic, religious, spiritual, political systems that promise but can't deliver except in the short term.
Bill Dogterom:Right? And and you I I get it. I get it. You you you find yourself with with the with this tension and and because I I thought about this, how is it possible for the church, for the people, for us to be deceived and then I realized all that it takes is inattention. That's all it takes.
Bill Dogterom:At least with me. Anybody else? Just inattention. I just if I could take my eye off the ball for a bit it's not I shouldn't be surprised when when the when the when the when the ease of a better especially because my wealth will buffer me from the consequences of my complicity. Poor people can't get away with it.
Bill Dogterom:I'm and I'm not being facetious. That's why why Jesus said, Oh man, it's really hard for rich people to get into the kingdom. They got so many options and Jesus is saying, no. I'm happy for you to have stuff but if that stuff has you it's gonna be really really hard for you to let that go. Right?
Bill Dogterom:And and and and we sit with this with this stunning awareness that that even with that even with that revealed, even with that pulled back there is still, ah, I think I can I think I can I think with enough healthcare I can I can get through these these sores and these pains? And then we get the setup for the sixth angel. Great river Euphrates dying up in this symbolism. Euphrates was a natural barrier preventing in many cases the kings of the East from thundering down on the nations in in and around the Mediterranean. So, that's the image that he's got here.
Bill Dogterom:And, this natural barrier now will become a highway for and there's gonna be a a deceptive spirits that will go out to these kings of the East. Don't bother trying to figure out who they are. That's beside the point. That's not the point. But they will they will buy in.
Bill Dogterom:They will be deceived that finally they can rid themselves of these people of God and be able to function in a universe that's flying upside down. And so so the river being dried up and the demonic spirits, if you will, that draw them to this battleground of what we have called Armageddon in the literally, it's the Mountain Of Megiddo. There is no Mountain Of Megiddo. In in in so clearly that's a symbol that John is drawing here. Megiddo is the place of the last battle between Egypt and Israel that crushed Israel.
Bill Dogterom:So so this image here of this battle of Armageddon that we have have triggered the imagination so deeply is is and by the way, if we follow along, if especially if you're following along at home, you will notice there is no battle of Armageddon. All of these nations are gonna assemble, all of the armies are gonna come, they're all gonna be born and then Jesus is gonna show up, game's over. It's I mean, literally that crisp, clean, and clear. So we get all anxious about this and that. No.
Bill Dogterom:No. No. Stay with Jesus. You'll be just fine. You'll be fine.
Bill Dogterom:Right? And then he invites them into this final statement. Seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air and said a loud voice from the throne, It is done. You hear the echo don't you of the It is finished. That this It is done is the same voice that said it is finished.
Bill Dogterom:It was finished there, it was done there. All of this, John's saying, is gathered up in what occurred on the cross. That's why you want to stay as close to the lamb slain as you possibly can. Do not, do not, for your life's sake, buy in to the deceptive practices of a socioeconomic system that promises life when it can only deliver death. Don't do it.
Bill Dogterom:Don't do it. And it's so easy for us to do it. I always know a better way to manage my money. I always know a better way to handle my sexuality. I always know a better way to handle my relationship.
Bill Dogterom:I always know a better way to handle my anger and rage. I always know a better way. And Jesus says, no you don't. And I say, yes I do. And he says, okay.
Bill Dogterom:If you won't say to him your will be done he will say to you your will be done. Knock yourself out because that's what's going to happen. So how do we How does this deception occur? Because notice what he says here in verse 15. Look, I come as a sea thief.
Bill Dogterom:Pay attention. Blessed is the one who stays awake, who remains clothed. They're they're not gonna be caught off guard. The parables of Jesus, Matthew 25, all of them are about preparation. It's not hard.
Bill Dogterom:Once you've tuned your heart to the way of the lamb, it's not hard to detect the way of empire. It's not hard. It's very easy, but the challenge is is that we have a we have an enemy who's really clever and he will deceive us with just enough spirituality that we we we are we think we're we're caught up in the right thing. I love worship. I love worship.
Bill Dogterom:I love love love love worship but I can I can be deceived by worship especially if I make it about me and my experience of worship? I had a wonderful time in worship today. Such great worship. Really, how would you know? Because you felt better?
Bill Dogterom:You had a good day? Good for you. You do know it's not about you. It's not your song you're singing. It's the song of the lamb.
Bill Dogterom:And he's happy to share his glory but don't you be making book on it. That's not your glory. I I love the language of revival. I love the language of revival. I've I've survived three or four of them in my lifetime and I use that very carefully because sometimes we think the point of revival is revival.
Bill Dogterom:If revival doesn't issue forth in mission, it's not revival. It might be refreshment but it's not revival. If it doesn't turn us to the poor, if it doesn't turn us to the disenfranchised, if it doesn't turn us to the Samaritans, the ones we wouldn't have anything to do with, if it doesn't turn us to them, it's not revival. And notice we can be we can be deceived. I'm blessed, I'm blessed, I'm blessed.
Bill Dogterom:And of course if I have wealth, which I do, which we do, I can be buffered from the reality of my disobedience. That's how it's easy it is for me to be deceived. I don't know about y'all. This this this week, it's just like, dear God, why did you give me this one? Because this has been so heavy for the last two or three weeks it's like, oh man.
Bill Dogterom:It's one day after another of looking in the mirror saying, I'm so sorry, I missed this and I just wanna bring you into my pain. I just want you to join in because the solution is not hard, is it? I surrender all, all to Jesus. I surrender, I surrender all. He's gotta be the Lord, he's gotta be the Lord.
Bill Dogterom:I've gotta stay as close to him not trading spiritualities of experience for the presence of God issuing forth in self sacrificial love. Oh God help us, please help us not to understand but to follow through on what we understand. To own the ways in which we have allowed ourselves and in fact have participated in our own deception in which we have taken legitimate blessings that you have given to us and have used them to hide from you. I pray, oh lord, that you would turn our hearts. We know that when we repent, when we turn, we will not find you shaking your fist at us in anger.
Bill Dogterom:We will find you tears streaming down your cheeks, arms open wide to receive us and so I pray that we would courageously receive the forgiveness that is ours, receive the forgiveness that is available and walk in it. Give us courage, oh Lord, I pray. In Jesus name.
Intro/Outro:Thank you so much for listening. For more information, please visit us at garden.church.