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James Church, best selling author of Investable Entrepreneur joins me to talk about how to successfully fundraise for your startup.
Welcome to Startups with Niall Maher.
This show is to going give you tips, strategies and advice to grow your business and hopefully entertain you along the way.
Niall will introduce experts and resources that he is always learning from.
It’s all about sharing that experience with YOU.
Niall has worked in nearly every corner of technology businesses; Lead Developer, Software Architect, Product Manager, CTO and now happily a Founder.
You’ll also get to hear live calls with special guests (such as founders, authors and experts).
Thanks for listening and let’s grow together.
Niall Maher: Are you curious about
getting investors for your business?
I know I am.
I just started talking to investors
in the last week about Myqu.
And, fundraising is supposed to be hard
and if it was easier to market would
be even riskier than it already is.
But with the right playbook,
there is a recipe for success.
If you are curious or just looking
for some tips on that journey.
Today's goal is to help you avoid some
common pitfalls when you are fundraising.
One of the best ways to learn
is from the mistakes of others.
Another option.
And even luckier for me is to chat
with James Church who works with
founders on all of their assets.
And I am quoting James here that makes it
40 times more likely to get an investment.
James is an absolute fountain
of knowledge in this episode.
So buckle up and listen to his
journey with his own business and
the advice to anyone fundraising.
James, thanks for joining us.
Could you introduce yourself?
James Church: Yeah, absolutely.
Thanks for having me.
I'm thrilled, thrilled to be here.
So yeah.
I'm James Church, I'm the author of the
bestselling book, investible entrepreneur.
And I'm also the co-founder
and the COO at robot mascot.
Now robot mascot, we're, we're essentially
an agency that create investment
materials that convince investors.
Uh, and when we do that, our clients
are 40 times more likely to raise
the investment that they need.
And as a result of that, we've been
recognized as the UK leading pitch agency,
we're trusted by the likes of Crowdcube,
seeders dent global accelerator.
Seed Legals and a number of other capital
raising partners won a few awards along
the way as well, which is really cool.
And, um, yeah, essentially at the heart
of, of what we want to see at robot
mascot is we want to see great ideas
and innovations flourish, and we just
get so frustrated at seeing those great
ideas fail because of poor communication.
So that's really what we stand for.
That's what we want to change
with the world and we want
to see these great ideas.
Just absolutely raise the investment
they need go on to bigger and better
things because they can communicate
their idea in the right ways.
Niall Maher: Is there a
specific type of profile?
You find people going towards you
is there is a builders like me or
nerds like myself, who struggled with
communication that go towards you.
Are you finding all parts of
business are finding it useful to
jump over and work with yourselves.
James Church: Because we work in
creating business plans and financial
strategy, as well as pitch and
can kind of communication assets.
There's two types of founders
that, that we, we see.
Day-to-day typically, and it's the,
there's the techies, the builders,
the scientists, the engineers,
who, who kind of would much
rather talk technical information.
And they need that help turning
into something everyone can, can
understand and everyone can can grasp.
And then you have the kind of
more marketing led founders.
The ones that are great at the sales great
at getting people to buy into a vision and
they've got no trouble telling the story.
But they don't necessarily have
all the detailed information that
an investor would be looking for.
And we find that the essentially there's
three things that investors looking for.
And that is, you know, a founder that
can get people to buy into a vision is
highly resourceful, can bring people
on board to their vision, great talent
great advisors, game-changing commercial
partnerships and of course, capital.
But then they're also looking
for someone who has got a real
understanding of commercial success
and how to create commercial success
and implementation strategies around
business and financial risks and
rewards and how the numbers play out.
So you've got to have that balance
between the two and it's pretty
common for one, a founder to be
good at one thing and not the other.
It's very rare to find a founder who's
genuinely really good at the detail and
the numbers and the strategy, and also
at telling great stories and get people,
getting people to buy into a vision.
So, yeah, it's a real,
it's a, it's a real mix.
And depending on who you are as a founder,
you probably resonate with one of those.
More than that,
Niall Maher: It's amazing because you
literally are filling in the gaps because
I obviously came from with the angle.
I build stuff.
So you'll help me do the business
stuff, but I forget that there is the
opposite side and they there's a whole
lot of blank tasks to be filled in
for whoever it is that comes to you.
And I think the reason I have
you more than anything here today
is your passionate about helping
people get funding, but helping
people and helping startups.
And I was very interested to hear how
you started this journey, because I
know, I don't know if it was the same
name when it started, but you started
robot mascot off as a branding agency.
So I believe, and when
did that change into this?
Or could you tell us the
story of how that all.
James Church: cool.
Yeah.
So, so robot mascot was originally
founded by my business partner.
Nicholas Rustin.
He's a creative director has worked in
top 10 advertising agencies in the UK
working on incredible brand campaigns
for the likes of Jaguar for the likes
of Barclays he launched, I want one of
those.com back in the day, he did their
launch marketing, their launch campaign.
Re really experienced creative director.
And I joined him about, I think
it was 12, 18 months into the
journey as his co-founder and
more on the operational side.
And I came more from a marketing
and communication background and
he came from sort of an advertising
communication background and
we built this branding agency.
That's what we wanted.
That's what we wanted to do.
So we, we built this agency and.
We were working, we always had
the same vision, great ideas
and innovations to flourish.
We wanted to be on the cusp of the
new we were always really intrigued by
startups and creating startup brands
that were exciting and innovative.
And there was this sort of
future thinkers, these exciting
young dynamic founders.
So naturally we started being asked
by these startups that were, that
we were building their brand for
to start creating their pitch deck.
We need our, you know, we've got our deck,
we needed to, we needed it to look in
line with our brand and we want it to look
really slick when it goes to an investor.
And so we started doing some of that work
and, um, we had some advisors who were
also angel investors and they saw some of
that work and they said, you know what?
You've got something really.
Special here.
There's not anyone who does that.
And not in one who does it to the standard
that you've done it for these clients.
You should look into this being a service
because there's a massive problem here.
So that, that got us looking into that.
My, my co-founder Nick went in and
watch some pitch events in, in sort of
various tech hubs in around the country,
mainly in London and witnessed that
firsthand came back reported to me.
And then I spent the next sort of 12
to 18 months researching with founders
and investors and realized that there
was a real issue to solve there.
And so we started from the basis of
we're going to help you with your pitch,
with the communication, the language
and the, and the design of that pitch.
We naively thought that a founder
would as part of the brief, they would
give us their business plan and their
financial projections, and we'd have
everything we need to go and create a nice
articulate 20 page, 20 slide pitch deck.
Make it look pretty, make it sound great.
We were so wrong.
So many founders, you know, 80, 90%
of the founders who we're working
with kind of didn't have those assets
or we could see that they weren't
there to a good enough standard.
And, and what really happened was that
we were seeing loads of founders that
were working with getting great response
from their pitch, getting investor
meetings as a result of this great
pitch, but none of them were closing.
None of them were actually getting
the investment or some of them
were, but not all of them not
enough of them for my liking.
So we looked into what that
reason was and it was because
they didn't have that picture.
Wasn't built upon those fundamental
assets of a business plan and a financial
projections that were solid enough to tick
investors boxes in those second and third
meetings in that due diligence phase.
So that's what kind of led to
us or becoming a very specialist
communications agency focusing
only on investor communications
and approaching the creation of a
business plan, financial plan, and
a financial forecast and a pitch.
Through the lens of them being marketing
materials to close, an investment
deal there, they're essentially
marketing materials to sell shares
in your business as opposed to
marketing materials to sell a product.
And because we view it through
that lens, we've been able to have
great success by creating all of
those assets in one place and have
everything for that whole journey.
So, Yeah, it's been
quite a transformation.
But it was just seeing a real need
that we knew we could solve and just
nailing it and focusing in on it.
Niall Maher: That's amazing because
most good product companies will go
through the same where they originally
set out to solve one problem.
And then all of a sudden, you listen to
what your customers are asking for and you
realize that they're using it in a way you
didn't expect, and you can either ignore
it and die, or you listen and adapt.
And I think that's the, one of
the best examples of adapting.
I've heard.
James Church: Yeah.
I mean, it was, uh, it really did turn out
to be the sort of classic kind of example
of a pivot, you know, where it wasn't a
complete, overnight change of direction.
W we kind of, you know,
you think about the.
If you physically pivot one foot stand
still, and then the other foot moves you
and businesses when they pivot, they think
it's just an instant change of direction,
like switching tracks, but actually a
pivot has one, one point that stays still
and then another point moves around it.
And that's kind of what we did.
We still ran that branding agency as
a branding agency for, for a number of
years, while we were embedding ourselves
into startup culture, while we were
doing the research for the new product.
And we, we actually launched a, uh,
an MVP site for these pitch services
that we called robot mascot.tech.
And we had our.tech kind of brand
that had a different look and feel.
Um, while we tested, you know, was
there was, you know, would, would
people pay us to solve this problem?
And once we realized they, they would
in that, that, that was the, the
opportunity for us to scale, we then
rebranded the agency and relaunched
as this as this pitch agency.
So yeah, w.
Looking back.
It was, it was pretty textbook.
It didn't feel like that at
the time, but I'm looking back
at it, um, with, with success.
It's quite easy to turn around
and say, that was, that was
a pretty good textbook move.
So yeah, pretty pleased
with how it turned out.
Niall Maher: I would be too.
It's it's brilliant.
I see you.
You've catalyzed and money ways as well.
You have the best-selling book now,
investible entrepreneur which I'm
going through in the audio form.
Lucky enough, the content is
very interesting and relevant
because it's a very soothing voice
James Church: oh no.
I don't want people falling asleep
Niall Maher: No, it's definitely
not because the content
is so good and detailed.
There's no waste.
It's valuable content.
There's a lot of nonfiction you pickup,
and you can read the first chapter on
the last chapter and you get it there.
There's not really like a step-by-step
process that you should follow.
There's not a journey to follow.
It's like, Hey, we believe this.
Now here's 40 examples
of why this is true.
They're in your, your book.
It brings you on a journey.
James Church: yeah, yeah.
I, I guess, you know, that's
what I intended to do.
And obviously I come from
a communication background.
So, This was an extended
different way of writing for me.
Never written something
as meaty as a book before.
But for me, it's the same as writing
any piece of communication, whether
it's a pitch or a brochure or a,
or some kind of campaign it's about
telling that story and take Pete taking
people on a journey of discovery.
That's kind of what I
wanted from that book.
So it's good that that comes through.
Niall Maher: I just read another
book recently called write
useful books and it just, it, it
felt textbook of a useful book.
There's no fluff, the
content is all super useful.
I've seen you giving away the book
for free it's a cheap price and
Amazon this content is everywhere
for anyone that needs it.
So if anyone is looking for tips
under the decks and everything
else and their journey for
investment, I really recommend it.
But has that impacted your
business negatively or positively?
Because I think a lot of people get
worried that if I give away the secret
sauce my business will crumble beneath
me because they'll no longer need me.
James Church: yeah, yeah.
That is always a worrier.
And I was equally.
Nervous at the idea that the good thing
for me is that, that we have an advisor
and business partner who's built three
or four multimillion dollar businesses
all off of the back of launching a book.
We had that, we had the
reassurance that it does work
from someone we really trusted.
There's a power in doing it though,
because it's, it allows you to one help.
So many people, um, you know, I wanna,
I want to help, you know, the, the, the,
the goal and the purpose of writing the
book was to, was a personal one to, to
support, you know, hundreds of thousands
of, of founders raise investment.
And I couldn't possibly do
that through a consultancy.
I couldn't help every single founder.
I wanted to help through
running a consultancy.
Um, so I needed another way
to achieve that ambition.
And that was through writing a book
that gave across that information,
producing loads of content online and,
and videos and, and social content
that supports it allows me to achieve
that ambition, that personal ambition,
um, but the writing of the book
allowed me to get really clear on.
Our methods and our approaches.
So it allowed me to actually
sell the business better as well,
because I suddenly had a much more
structured and a better story and
a better way of describing the
value that we add in the business.
So, so yeah, it's had
a knock on effect of.
Of improving the business.
We saw a 300% growth in revenue
that the 12 months after I launched
the book, which is just insane.
So it really was the catalyst for,
for growth and scale, because that
people will of course read the
book and go, thank you very much.
And I've had loads of messages on
LinkedIn from people saying, I've
read your book and I've it was so
influential and we've just closed
a 500 K funding round or whatever.
And, part of you is like, ah, damn,
they could have been a client.
But the other part is like really,
you know, really proud that you've
been able to support them in that way.
And the truth of the matter is if they
were able to implement what was in the
book and raise the funds, then they
probably didn't need to pay for my house.
Through our consultancy anyway,
and it would have been, it probably
wouldn't have been the right fit.
And we probably would have had a
discussion and said, you know what?
You actually don't need our help.
You just need to do this and this, and
then you're, and then you're good to go.
So, so what actually happens is you
end up helping and supporting a load
of people that would have probably
have never worked with you anyway.
And then what you end up doing is working
with the people who really see the
value and really, really want to bring
you on board because they just couldn't
or don't want to do it themselves.
And they, they want to bring
someone else in to do it.
And that's just the way that they operate.
So it's allowed us to filter out the types
of clients we work with and only speak to
the people who really see how we can add
value and want to pay for our support.
So, yeah, it's been a
win-win all around really
Niall Maher: it's just a positive thing
because you hear so many companies that
are so hell bent on selling that they
forget who they're trying to help or how
to help people or who the right person is.
So it's kind of refreshing to hear
somebody that cares saying, well,
we want the relationship to be
better rather than just makes buck.
it's really nice to hear.
James Church: And when we're building the
robot mascot brand and we were looking at
kind of what, what we stand for and what
we really care about myself and Nick.
We really saw ourselves as the guide in
this scenario, not the hero of the story.
It's not about us.
It's about our clients.
And we're the guide that guides the client
through our, our ethos is robot mascot is
to be the friends and allies of founders.
And that's really sets up when,
when your ethos is to be the
friend and allies of founders.
You kind of can't charge
for anything really.
The fact that we make a living is probably
anti that ethos, but that's why we give
away so much, so much free content.
The F give away the book for free,
more than happy to do so you don't even
have to pay for postage and packaging.
You know, it's like, we'll cover that.
Don't worry about it.
Give away the blog content, the video
content, but all of that stuff out there,
and that time and effort into it because
our genuine kind of personal ethos between
me and my co-founder is to be the friend
and ally of founders and to support as
many people as possible on this journey.
And not all of them are people
who want to pay for consultancy.
Um, and so why not help them
in other forms in other ways?
Niall Maher: Even doing this and taking
some time out of your busy day to come
over and just talk and help people
on my podcasts been amazing as well.
It just proves that the,
that is how you do things.
You just want to help
as many people as you.
James Church: Yeah
Niall Maher: I really appreciate it
because I said you before the call that
I've been stealing from you for about
a year now, because I sat in on one of
your sessions and I really liked how you
spoke and how you talked about things.
Then I just started looking for all the
content looking through your book and
it's been very useful for me anyway, as I
start my fundraising journey, especially
it, to know what I need, what I should
be thinking about, especially as a
builder who just would rather not worry
about the paper things on the assets.
So having those things in place is very
important and having that nice checklist.
So I appreciate it.
I hope you keep it up for
people like me, who will
James Church: I'll absolutely.
I
Niall Maher: So, but I also hope there's
plenty of people who are listening
to this that think, do you know what?
I would rather get some help.
I'm going to push and get an
expert in this to help me.
So then I'll feel less guilty about
stealing from you all the time.
James Church: Yeah no, everyone is in it.
Isn't stealing.
If I'm putting out there for free
already, is it it's uh, it's, it's
certainly not, certainly not stealing
it's it's using, using what we, we want.
Exactly.
What we want to happen is, is for
you to look through that stuff,
be inspired and, use it to help
yourself get where you want to be.
That's that's what it's there for.
Niall Maher: I'm keeping one foot
on the ground because I'm really
thinking about your pivot statement.
That's a really nice analogy for this.
So pivoting to helping the
selfish jumping into this, because
I've just started fundraising.
I wanted to ask you a few questions
about the fundraising journey, and I
think it'll be useful for other people
who are in similar position as myself.
I am, pre-product, I'm
building the product.
I'm hoping to have something to sell
in the next couple of months, but I'm
also out seeking investment so that
we can accelerate through that launch.
Is there a stage you find too early
for looking for investment or have
you found some businesses are just
premature or what are the natural stages?
People usually look for investment
James Church: no, no time is too early.
Depending on how much
you're asking to raise.
And I think that's the big
mistake that founders make is
raising too much, too soon.
So.
Rather than taking baby steps, you know,
maybe raising 50 grand from a friends
and family or, or an angel, you know,
an individual angel that you might know
in your local business community, for
example, to go and build the MVP and,
and get your first few users or, or
not even an MVP, maybe just a proof of
concept and get your first few users or
start to, to do some product market fit
testing before you then go and raise, you
know, 150 200 K SCIS kind of round to.
Build that full MVP and get your
first few users and then 500 K
to get to a market ready position
and, and so on and so forth.
So I think there's a tendency for founders
to kind of go straight for the 200 K
or straight for the, to the 500, 750 K
in some cases, the million, 2 million,
because they think it's a great idea.
No, one's going to invest in
an idea ideas at, uh, 10, a
penny, we can all have ideas.
What an investor is really looking for
is, is the founder who can execute it.
The founder who can make it happen
and you need to have shown evidence
that you're, you're making progress
in turning this idea into reality
and, and impress them with how much
you've been able to achieve with so
little capital invested so far, because
then I know if I give you my capital,
you're going to make it go really far.
You're going to, you're going to
have a I have great success with the
way that you spend that investment.
So it's less about if it's too early
and it's about having the right amount
of asking for the right amount of money
for the right stage of your development.
So something I call the fundraising
journey and I talk about it in my book
and there's this sort of fundraising
journey and, and is sort of navigating
that from kind of bootstrapping to
pre-seed seed series a and so on.
And as long as you get that,
right, you, you should be fine.
Niall Maher: One of my notes in front of
me because it's something that stood out
for me when I was reading, is that the
four stages of the fundraising journey,
bootstrapping, startup scale-up and exit.
It's a, it's an interesting process to me.
You also mentioned in the book,
that there is some people that
quickly accelerate through it.
And do you find it's those people who
take those baby steps or those people
that throw the big swings that are
usually going through these spaces and
this might be counter to your last point?
It might not.
I'm just
James Church: no,
Niall Maher: curious.
James Church: no baby steps tends to
work out quicker and also tends to
mean that as a founder, you retain more
of your equity because you can raise
a small amount on a small valuation
revalue, raise more revalue, raise more.
And, and whereas if you're, if you go
straight for the juggler and you try
and raise one, 2 million straight away,
eh can you justify, you know, at, at
best, you'd have to justify like a 4
million valuation for this idea to, to
part with 50% equity of the business.
Whereas that's probably not very
realistic and most investors probably
aren't going to go for that deal.
And you're going to quickly,
be in a position where you've
not got enough equity for you
to feel like it's worthwhile.
So it's better for you.
It's better for the investors.
It's better for your journey because
if you're trying to raise large sums
of money with little evidence and
little kind of progress to date,
then you're going to spend six, 12
months trying to close your round.
Whereas you could go and raise 50 K
for three months in that very early
stage, early stage, just to get your
idea off the ground and make that,
make that impact straight away.
And then go and raise another
150 K to last you six months.
You know, prove what you can do with that.
And then go and raise another five.
And those rounds could, would
take less time to close because
they're more realistic deals that
there's something in investor.
This is a no brainer because it's,
you, you've proven so much with
the money you've spent so far.
And I can see the traction.
I can see the evidence.
I can see the proof that this is,
this is something the market wants
and needs you know, it's much
easier for me to make the decision on
saying, yes, I'm gonna go to invest.
So yeah, small little and often
scent tends to be as a general
rule of thumb, the best approach
for so many different reasons.
Niall Maher: Beautiful.
Creating that confidence
as you move through the.
James Church: Investors are looking
for proof, not possibilities.
And as founders, we love to
talk about the possibilities.
We love to talk about all
the future applications, all
the things that could be.
Cause we're dreamers, we're
visionaries, we're we're trying
to create the next big thing.
Investors tend to come from a
financial background and they're.
They're looking to invest, they're
either spending their money or someone
else's money, and they're looking for
as much certainty as you can get in
the startup world, which is not much
certainty at all, but they're trying to
get as much certainty as they possibly
can on their investment decision.
So the more proof, the more
evidence you have the more
likely you are to close the deal.
So if you can do that with a small amount
of initial kind of bootstrapped cash
and then a small friends and family,
and then a slightly larger pre-seed
and so on and take those steps you're
gonna, you're gonna be able to have
much more meaningful conversations
with investors in the, in the long run.
Niall Maher: Love it.
I have a couple of titles I've stolen
shamelessly from your book as well,
because I talked to her great talking
topics as well, the mind of an investor.
And what do investors want to see?
So I'd love your thoughts
on what makes a pitch great.
James Church: Yeah.
Okay.
So essentially there's yeah, there's
a few, a few different things that
investors are looking to see namely
risk assets, proof and implementation.
They're the main things that investors
tend to tend to want to understand.
On the other hand founders prefer to
talk about, opportunities, possibilities
revenue ideas, that they're the sorts of
things that founders like to talk about.
So that's the challenge.
That's the thing the book looks to solve.
The thing that we look to solve at
robot mascot is how you translate your
natural way of talking as a founder
about possibilities, opportunities,
ideas into these four categories of
risk assets, proof, and implementation.
So we already kind of covered proof.
We were talked about
that just just recently.
But then you've got, you've got
risk, so they want to understand the
financial risks and rewards in the
business and also the operational
risks in the business and how you're
going to be able to mitigate those.
Now they don't necessarily come in
the pitch, but they certainly come
into the conversations you have after.
After the pitch and the second and
third meetings in the due diligence
and, certainly your financials
should demonstrate that you're
considering the financial risk.
So a simple example of that would
be looking at your cash buffer.
You know, you're raising, let's say
million pounds for a 12 month runway.
Well, and then you're raising another 5
million pounds for the next 12 months.
Let's say for argument's sake.
What happens if that second round is
delayed by three months, do you run out of
cash and start having to lay off team and
stop marketing just as you're about to go
and raise a second round of investment,
you have to stop your marketing and your
growth is starting to slow or go downwards
instead of upwards, or are you a sensible
founder that's built in a three month cash
buffer into the amount you're raising.
So things can be delayed.
Things are delayed.
You don't have to lay off that team.
You've just spent 12 months building.
You can continue your marketing
efforts for three months before you
really have to start winding things
down and start getting desperate.
So that would be a way of using your
funding assets to demonstrate to an
investor that you also understand risk.
And then you might have risk analysis
in your business plan that talks
through operational risks, as well as
financial risks and such like, so that.
A founder that understands that
and has thought in part, how are
they going to mitigate those sort
of main risks in the business?
Then we'll see assets not just revenue,
founders, love to talk about revenue, but
they really want to understand the kind
of underlying assets in the business.
Things like, you know, valuable
things like IP and how are
you going to protect that?
So you might, he might talk about
that in your pitch, your core IP,
how you've protected it, the unfair
advantage you might have your marketing.
Strategy or your marketing system that you
might have built for turning lead to sale.
That could be a unique kind of
processing unique flow that you've
created the unique sequence of events
that delivers results every time.
That's a really strong asset that
performs part of the value of the company.
So really they're looking at all those
underlying assets in the business that
become part of the valuation there's
soft assets like IP and systems and
processes and your brand, things
that don't appear on our balance
sheet and the kind of soft assets.
And there's something that quantified
when you come to sell the company and
then you've got your physical assets, that
might be something like physical equipment
or machinery or something like that, which
very few tech companies actually have.
It's all soft assets.
So they want to understand that you
understand yourself as a founder that
you're not just trying to build revenue.
You're trying to build these assets.
You know, customer numbers
or a great, a great asset.
The customers you have are an
incredible asset and, you know, WhatsApp
famously exited their, their business.
Having made no revenue, sold for a
billion dollars to Facebook, having
made no revenue, Microsoft and Facebook
in a bidding war against each other,
just because they had millions and
millions of users made no money as a
business, it was completely loss-making,
but they had millions of users all
over the world and they were worth
a billion dollars because of it.
They had a really valuable asset
and that was users customers.
So investors want you to understand
that and that comes through your
pitch and these other assets as well.
Proof, like I said, we talked about, and
then implementation, like I said, everyone
can have an idea, ideas aren't valuable.
If you look at the top founders in the
world, the ones that are creating the
billion dollar unicorn businesses, what
they're all great at is implementation.
I could have a new idea tomorrow.
Let's say I'm walking home from work.
I get off the bus or off the train.
And there's this derelict building that
I walk past and every day for about
12 months, I walk past that building.
I think someone should really turn
that into a block of luxury apartments.
It's right near the station within
commuting distance of London.
If someone made this set of luxury
apartments that were, they would
make an absolute killing here.
I can't be angry if I then walk past
12 months later and someone's breaking
ground on on this site and they're turning
it into a luxury block of apartments.
I can't be angry or you stole my idea.
How dare you.
I didn't implement it.
I could have gone and raised the finance.
I could have taken the risk.
I could have gone and created
the strategy and worked with the
architect and drawn up the plans.
I could've done all that
stuff, but I didn't.
I had the idea, am I the person who
should get the rewards for that?
No, of course not.
You wouldn't argue that it's
the person who's worked with.
The architect drawn up the plans,
raised the finance, gone out and found
the buyers for these luxury apartments
to sell them to that deserves all the
plaudits and deserves all the results.
So the same is true.
When you're talking to investors
you can't rely on the fact.
You've got a great idea.
You need to be able to deliver them
a solid implementation strategy
that gets you from breaking.
Through to having a luxury set of
apartments that you can sell, which in
your case, in a software business is I
ha what's my re RO roadmap for building
a business, gaining customers, building
a product that's in its infancy now to
something of value in five years time.
So that's the way the mind of the
investor works versus the typical founder.
That's like, my idea is great.
Give me loads of money cause
it's cracking, cracking idea.
Niall Maher: I love the thought
about ideas being cheap, because
we all have a friend at one point.
So I said they stole my idea and it's, you
know, if you're in the pub with somebody
you'll always have one, they're like,
James Church: Yeah,
Niall Maher: Jaffa cake
and they stole it from me.
James Church: yeah,
Niall Maher: just so funny when
you hear stories like that.
Even in the business context,
but I guess execution is king
when it comes to anything.
James Church: Yeah, absolutely.
And on a, on a slightly more serious,
serious note, and this isn't legal advice,
but that this is why I get so frustrated.
And I kind of roll my eyes every time
someone says, oh, will you sign an NDA
before I will talk with you about my idea?
And I kind of think, well, first and
foremost, if I was in the business of
stealing ideas and then doing them myself,
I wouldn't have much of a consultancy
left giving what, given what I do.
But secondly, if you are not, if
you're putting blockers up with every
single conversation, your investors
aren't going to bother signing it.
You're never going to have
the discussion with them.
People who potentially could introduce
you to a great referral partner and
never going to introduce you to that
big game-changing commercial partner,
because you never had the conversation.
Cause you put up that roadblock because
you weren't willing to share your
idea for fear of it being stolen.
And if you were to share the idea, you
should be at least 12 months ahead.
You, you've got years of experience
and insights that probably led to
you having that idea in the first
place, you should feel like you're
the best person to make this happen.
So even if someone did have, you
know, look at your idea, that's great.
I want to do it myself.
You should be 12 months ahead of them.
You should be the person to make
this happen because you can.
You're the only person who could
actually implement this with any success.
So you shouldn't have a fear of your
idea being stolen as a founder of you
genuinely think you're the person to
make this happen and can access the
capital to make it happen quickly.
There, there's no reason to
fear your idea being stolen.
And, and the more you share your
idea, actually the quicker things
move, the more introductions you
get, the more people help you.
The more you'll get
advisors supporting you.
Yeah, it's a weird thing that
founders do, trying to protect
their idea and not tell anyone about
it for fear of it being stolen.
I do find that hard.
Niall Maher: I love that because I
mentor some local businesses through a
government problem called new frontiers.
And it's, it's bizarre when, like
that's probably the most common thing
when people are reaching out for help
and they always ask, do I need to get
NDAs drawn up to make sure that my idea
is protected before somebody steals?
Uh, and like, that's my answer.
You're working on this.
You should already be there.
Somebody starts this and
can get ahead of you.
You're in a, you don't have a great
product if it's that shaky that by just
sharing the details that it's gone.
James Church: Yeah.
It gets less, less, you know, anything
that you could share in a one-hour
meeting with someone is, is about the
level of detail you would put in a
sales brochure or on a website to, to
sell the product in the first place,
if your whole idea and your whole
ecosystem and your whole product can
be replicated off the back of a sales
brochure, then you probably haven't
got much of value in the first place.
Not to mention the fact that how many
founders do, you know, have the, the
capital behind them to enforce an NDA
in the courts with a expensive lawyers.
If you could afford to do that, you don't
need to raise capital in the first place.
So it's a complete, it's
a complete nonsense.
Niall Maher: I love it.
I love it because it's a gripe of mine
and that's so I'm so glad we could,
I'm going to change topic in a second
because I absolutely think I could
give out about this all day because
it's just such a, it just annoys me.
It frustrates me because I used to
do product development for people.
I used to build their products.
So that was always thing is,
oh, you need an NDA because you
can obviously build this idea.
So you're going to steal it.
I was like, oh, I make
money by building stuff.
I need, please just come
and let me do my business.
I'm trying to give you money in the end.
James Church: yeah.
It's yeah.
It's, it's a nonsense and yeah.
Frustration of mine, but
you're probably right.
We should probably draw a line in
that before we get ourselves into.
Niall Maher: Yeah, for sure.
Uh, well, uh, I'm used to it.
So I'll keep you out of trouble.
I'll I'll stick my foot in that
anyway, moving, moving clear way off
and do to types of investors matter,
or is this something that comes in
with the staging, like you mentioned
earlier, is there a certain time
you should be looking for strategic
investors or is any money good money?
Do you find when people are raising.
James Church: Yeah, it
depends on the founder.
You're talking to, I think some
just want any capital at any cost.
I think most will want a
strategic fit with an investor.
In the early years, I think smart
money is it's become known as bringing
on board sort of an angel investor.
And advisor is always quite, in
my opinion, quite a good strategy.
In the early years have quite an
active investor that comes with,
a little black book of people.
They can introduce you to, and years
of experience building businesses
who have some playbooks that they
could share with you that will
get you off the ground quicker.
I think that's invaluable.
And that itself is worth, you have
to consider when doing the deal that.
The cash alone.
Isn't just the value that
they bring to the table.
And that is reflected in the equity
deal that you propose to them.
So I think, for, in my personal
opinion, I think the right investors
at an early stage are those types
of consultant advisor investors
that and I think that really helps
when it comes to the later stages.
When you're raising maybe your seed
and series a and you're approaching
some funds or angel groups.
And you've got a team of great
advisors who are also invested in
this business, not just through
their time, but through capital.
It can tells a much, much more solid
story because if you, pitch and say,
I've got these great advisors on board
and then the fund turn around and
say, so are they your angel investor?
And they go, oh no, they
haven't put any cash in.
It's well, if they think this is
such a great idea, why haven't they?
So having that kind of advisor investor
to begin with, I think avoiding funds in
the early stages is probably a wise move.
In most parts even the so-called SEIS
funds, they tend to, you're probably
wasting your time because they're
so oversubscribed with applications
that the reality is that even though
SIS, as a scheme, is there to, to
support founders, raising, to build
their product and to in the very
earliest stages of their development.
The reality is that there's enough
businesses out there that are quite
established looking to raise 150 K.
Fund and the way a fund operates just
can't help itself going with the better
strategic bet, even though technically
they don't really need SEIS money and
they're slightly ahead of the curve versus
the majority of pre-seed businesses.
So funds are normally quite difficult
to get cash out of until you're quite
well-established with revenues, again,
pitching to VCs, you're going to really
struggle, pitching to VCs until you've got
yourself to the point of having 80, you
know, the typical, typical VC of having
sort of 80 K monthly recurring revenue,
you're you're on course to having a
million ARR, then VCs kind of open their
doors and they're really interested.
Prior to that, it's a real slog and
you're probably better off talking
to angel investors and angel groups.
So yeah, it's about targeting
the right, the right investors.
And it also changes your pitch.
If you're pitching to VCs, you should
already have about a million in
revenue and you should be focusing
on your whole strategy is how quickly
can we get to a hundred million in
revenue that, that should really
be the conversation you're having.
Whereas with angels, it's
very different conversation.
It's, we're, we're, pre-revenue,
we're, pre-product in some cases and,
and the plan is over the next three
to five years to get to five, 10, 50
million in revenue, not so, so it's a
completely different kind of structure
of your implementation strategy for the
different investors you're talking to.
So yeah, really important to pick and
have conversations with the right ones
and create an investor target list of
who's most likely to invest versus who's
least likely to invest and have the right
conversations with the right investors.
Niall Maher: I love that advice because
it's all applicable to me right now.
I ask that is the one question I have
since I started last week of going
out and starting to fundraise myself,
is, am I talking to the right people?
So that is absolutely golden
in the sense of it makes sense.
Once it's set out loud, it's just the
case of when you're in, when you're
too close to the details you missed the
details or D the big picture, I guess.
So it's phenomenal.
James Church: Best thing to do
is to do your research and, you
know, you can get a pro account for
Crunchbase for about $20 a month.
And you can look at similar round
sizes that have closed recently, and
you can look at the companies and
you can look at who the investors are
that were registered in that round.
And then, search them on LinkedIn and
start to make connections with them and
say, I realize that you just invested
in the pre round of this company.
We're in a similar niche doing
something very different.
I think you'll love what we're doing.
Should we chat?
You know that they invest in your
type of business at your stage of the
journey, because you've researched it.
You've found the details on
Crunchbase or you've you scoured
LinkedIn for investors within your
locality and or within your niche.
And you've looked at who they have
listed on their LinkedIn profile is
as people that have actively invested
in your life, they're perfect for me.
And it's, it is it's boring work.
It's not the most exciting thing to
do as a founder slogging through the
internet, researching a list of targets.
But it's going to, it's going to
mean you don't waste any time just
doing a sort of a spray and pray
approach rather than a targeted
laser-focused kind of outreach campaign.
It's more of a direct outreach
campaign fundraising than it
is a mass advertising campaign.
So yeah, the more you can spend doing
that, the better your results will be.
Niall Maher: I love that this feels
like a personal mentoring session to me.
So I really appreciate it.
before I throw you off the call, then one
thing I wanted to ask was in the book,
you write a book there's only so much you
can put in it, it's printed, it's done.
Is there anything or any piece of advice
that you wish you could have put into
the book that didn't make it, or is
there any mistakes you're noticing since
or anything you'd like to change or
like I'm basically looking for a
nugget of gold that isn't in the book.
James Church: uh, I mean there's loads.
So there's loads of stuff that I think
there could be a book before and there
could be a book after the book that I've
written that that could, I could go into a
lot more detail around product market fit.
That's a part of a chapter and
I think that's super important.
And so.
The whole evidence piece, the proof
piece that investors are looking for
could almost be a book in itself.
And even the conversation around, do you
even need to raise equity investment in
the first place, or is there a better
route for you that there's all of that
kind of information that, that I didn't
have enough space to cover, and it would
have changed the focus of the book.
And I think that's best left as like
a prequel if you like, that's the
really early stage get it off the
ground book and get it to a point where
you're raising, you're in a place
to raise a pre-seed or a seed round.
And then there's the,
then there's the sequel.
And that's probably my next goal and
it's kind of, I haven't committed myself
to it and I haven't committed time
to it because I'm kind of enjoying.
Where my life is at right now
without slogging away another book.
But there's certainly something in the
future that I think is expanding upon
the, the final part of the book, where
I start, for a chapter or two start
alluding to campaign strategy and kind
of what to do with these assets once
you've got your pitch, once you have
your projections, once you've got your
business plan, how do you actually
meet, seek and convert investors?
How do you find them?
How do you reach out to them?
How do you have conversations with
them and how do you close the deal?
And I think there's a whole book
around campaign strategy that
I'd like to write in the future.
That, the focus is on that.
So yeah they're the kinds of things
that, that couldn't fit into this
book and are probably going to
be books for the future for me.
Niall Maher: I think closing is
definitely a golden thing, because
I think a lot of people in sales can
warm up people and then just not close.
So even just that last piece could
be a book I'm sure, in itself.
James Church: the say, I, I
mentioned it briefly in the book,
the expression of interest form
is the absolute killer there.
You know, there's simple piece
of paper or an online form,
like a Google form or whatever.
But just asks an investor to
say who they are, what's their
intended investment range.
Are they passive or active investor?
Are they looking for SEIS S IS shares,
you might even ask them, what else could
they bring to the table more than money?
Just some simple questions where
you're qualifying the investors.
You're almost interviewing them as
to their suitability for your round.
And it completely changes the dynamic.
A lot investors are essentially
relationship builders and they know that
most founders struggle to close around
and they might really like what you're
doing, but there's no real emergency.
They, you might have it might
take you six months to close.
They might not have the
cash to invest right now.
And they just want to see how you go and
maybe they'll invest in you in the future.
And you get a lot of verbal commitments
that never turn into anything.
And with an expression of
interest for them, you can.
Weed out the tire kickers.
So cause you can say thanks
for the verbal commitment.
Would you mind just filling in this
form just to express your interest?
It's not legally binding,
it's not the heads of terms.
It's just so I can
better manage the round.
Suddenly they're putting
something in writing.
It makes them feel uncomfortable
and they say, oh, I'd rather not.
And you know that they're
not interested at that point.
If they do put that information
down, you've got a red hot lead
to, to follow up with and start
going through those second or third
meetings that you diligence process.
And it also allows you to create FOMO,
fear of missing out in your round,
because hopefully let's say you're
raising a million pounds, let's get
to a point and don't start closing
around till you've at least got
1.5 million in expressed interest.
From investors at 1.5 million in
these expressions of interest,
you're 150% oversubscribed.
You can then ring back these investors
you've been having conversations
with in an order of preference.
And you can ring up the first one saying,
look, we're ready to close around.
We're oversubscribed.
I've got 1.5 million committed.
I only need a million.
So I'm, I'm not looking
to overskirt subscribes.
So we're only going to close at a million.
Are you in we're looking to we're
looking to get investors who, you
know, who are committed to, to get
their final commitment by the end of
the week, because we want to instruct
the lawyers to sends out, send out
heads of terms by the end of the month.
You're one of my top pick investors.
I loved the dynamic between us.
I thought you'd be a really
strong fit for the team.
Are you on board?
And it does two things.
One, it creates FOMO because.
There's other investors who are interested
if I don't say yes now then I'm going
to miss out on this opportunity.
But it also gives them reassurance
because they're often isolated,
especially angel investors, isolated,
making a decision with their capital.
And if they know loads of
other investors have seen the
potential in your concept as well.
And you're oversubscribed suddenly,
there's this excitement, this
momentum, this reassurance that
they're making the right decision.
So it makes it much easier for them to say
yes and commit to those heads of terms.
So it completely changes the dynamic.
And I've seen founders use this
approach and close around in a week.
They've basically lined up a week's
worth of meetings all in one, go
with investors back to back some
group sessions where they pitch in a
group to a number of angel investors.
They all ask their questions, expression
of interest form on every seat.
CLA gather up these expressions of
interest by the end of the week.
They're in a position where
they're oversubscribed and
they're ringing everyone back.
You're my top pick investor.
Are you on board?
They're telling everyone you are
their top pick investor, getting
everyone on board and closing their
round by the end of that week.
So it can be a complete game changer once
you know how to close with a simple, a
full form, you can completely transform
your campaign is quite incredible.
Niall Maher: I cannot wait to
share this with my team as well.
If that advice and everything
else, it's just, it's sound.
And that's the best
advice is always obvious.
Once you hear it.
That's the nice part about this.
There's, there's a recipe here.
You can follow.
It's not like an art in a sense of,
there is a recipe, which I always love
because a lot of business advice is
fluffy if which is not very helpful.
So i, I absolutely love that.
I'm really excited to
share this with people.
James Church: It's not rocket science.
It's just knowing the playbook.
It's knowing the playbook.
And once you have the playbook, you can
just do it again and again and again,
and you can raise as much funding
as you want for whatever venture
you want once you've figured it out.
You can just do it again
and again and again.
Niall Maher: I love it.
Absolutely loved all
the advice on this call.
It was amazing.
I have a couple more small questions,
not about pitching anymore.
What is your favorite book?
James Church: I, to there's
two, two favorite books,
they're both by the same author.
And that's Daniel Priestley.
He's one of my, one of my
advisors and mentors and.
The book key, key person of influence
and the book oversubscribed, and both are
massive influences on me in the way that
I've scaled and grown a robot mascot.
There's a, it aligns nicely with what we
talked about in terms of the expression of
interest form and oversubscribed thinking
about how to get oversubscribed and have
people queuing up to do business with you.
And you can apply those same
strategies that he talks about
from a sales and marketing
perspective directly to investment.
And key person of influence is what kind
of inspired me to write a book and do all
this social content and have this and,
and create the brand that we've created
and the personal brand I've created.
Yeah, they were the two biggest books that
had the most influence on me, I think.
Niall Maher: Key person of influence
is what made me start creating
content as well, believe it or not.
So
James Church: Ah, cool.
Niall Maher: it gave me the kick
over the edge because I was toying
with it for ages and at the start of
COVID I had a meetup, so I used to do
teach software workshops in person.
And then I read that book COVID
hit and I no longercould make
that network the way I was.
So I just, after that,
I just I can't stop.
I have to double down.
So how do I double down?
And in fairness, it's got me nearly 10,000
subscribers on YouTube by just making some
of that content online, which is really
nice because it was no extra effort.
It was just doing it in a new format.
James Church: yeah.
Yeah.
Well, you know, bringing, bringing
Dan on as an advisor and going
through his program was, was the
game changer for our business.
Completely, completely transferred.
Almost overnight is well worth a
read and it's well worth looking at
the work Dent do, Dan's business.
Cause yeah, it's completely
transformed me and my business.
Niall Maher: Beautiful.
I'll have to probably annoy him soon
and see if I can annoy him for half
an hour to get him some information,
because you've just reminded me.
I completely forgot.
Why this crazy journey started
until you mentioned that book.
I was like, that's the one.
Cause
it just, I was trying to figure out
like, why did I start this stuff?
James Church: Yeah.
It's it's an incredible
book.
Really, Really, good.
Yep.
Niall Maher: love it.
Then the last question I have is there
a piece of software or tool that you use
in your business that is a lifesaver that
you could just couldn't survive without.
James Church: Yeah.
I mean this, maybe this is a
fairly obvious one, cause I'm
not overly into, you know, the.
The product side, but yeah, for,
for us or for me, it just Zapier
has been like our business would
fall apart if Zapier disappeared.
Everything's so integrated.
Our whole businesses been,
we've been able to scale.
We've been able to grow at the pace
that we have and with with the team
that we have the size of the team that
we have because we've automated and
systemized so much, and much of that
is, is hooking stuff up different tools
and platforms through zaps in, in APS.
I think that's, that's the thing that,
that pretty much hooks everything together
in our business and allows us to operate.
So I'd probably have to say that.
Niall Maher: Beautiful.
I love Zapier.
I'm only starting to use it recently
for syncing my emails because I have
like six of them and things like that.
So it's, it's amazing.
Where can people find you?
Where on the web do you live?
And where's the best place
to, if people want to engage
and use robot mascot as well.
James Church: Yeah.
So I share most content on LinkedIn.
So you'd so feel free to
follow me on LinkedIn.
Just such James Church.
You should see me.
On most other social channels as well.
I post every day, there's a post
go that every day on Twitter and
Instagram and and Facebook as well.
So we're, we're on there.
We've got a, I've got a Facebook group.
If you're a Facebook user, could
investible entrepreneur where I share
loads of content in there to YouTube
videos go out every week on YouTube.
So that's where you
can find me and engage.
In terms of once you can say more
about the way we support founders
is it goes to the robot mascot
website, robot mascot.co.uk.
That's where you'll find the link
to order a free copy of the book.
If you want to order a
free copy of the book.
And then the final thing I'd say is
if you are seeking investment, yes.
Or thinking about seeking investment
and you want to kind of benchmark
yourself and figure out kind of how ready
you are to start raising investment.
Do you have everything you need in
place to kind of have the meaningful
conversations with investors than,
than go to pitch ready.co.uk.
And there's a piece of technology
we created called that's a scorecard
and it asks you some simple, yes, no
questions and produces a 12 page, a
12 page report, completely tailored
to you as to how ready you are and
benchmarks your ability to currently raise
investments that's pitch ready.co.uk for
that kind of bespoke tailored report.
So yeah they're the best places to
go to get more support, I think.
Niall Maher: Brilliant.
That's again, just more,
really useful practical things.
James Church: Yeah.
Niall Maher: You've been a
fountain of knowledge, James.
Yeah.
I really appreciate you taking the
James Church: No you're
you're very welcome.
I've really enjoyed it.
It's been great.
Niall Maher: Brilliant.
Well then hopefully we'll
talk again soon, anyway.
James Church: Yes, absolutely.
All the best.
Niall Maher: I really love that.
I always get so energized by people that
are just passionate about their craft.
It doesn't really matter about field.
I know I said it on the call, but
it did really feel like it was some
personal mentorship, especially
with the stage of journey I'm on.
My three biggest takeaways from the show
are taking baby steps towards your goals.
Researching your target
investors using Crunchbase.
And then being ready to close with
an expression of interest form.
I've added all the books, links and
everything else to James and his
recommendations in the show notes.
And if you're looking for even
more content, you can sign up
to my free newsletter on Niall
dot AF forward slash newsletter.
That's N I A L L dot A F.
Niall: If you enjoyed this episode,
I have a little favorite ask.
If you could leave the podcast a kind
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and helps me reach new people.
So I really appreciate it.
And until next time, my beautiful friends.
Keep learning and keep growing.