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The team from Force Technologies will be discussing all things obsolescence amongst themselves and with a mix of special guests from the industry.
00:00:17:08 - 00:00:43:11
Charlotte
Hi and welcome to another episode of Force Tech Talks. We're very excited today. I'm here with Ben, who is our applications manager and has to suffer with me daily talking about some of the topics we're going to discuss. We thought today we would talk about long term storage. So a lot of conversation is going on in the industry at the moment or our last time buys last.
00:00:43:13 - 00:01:07:02
Charlotte
You know, kind of last options to secure products. So we're getting a lot of questions about long term storage. What is it? And lots of kind of FAQs around it. Can my product be stored, things like that. So. So that's what we're going to talk about today. So I wrote down a couple of FAQs that I've kind of been hearing the most when talking to to customers and prospects.
00:01:07:03 - 00:01:14:12
Charlotte
So the first one would be, why would an organization choose long term storage for electronic components?
00:01:14:14 - 00:01:41:10
Ben
Yeah, I think the first point about that is that, you know, it's the most guaranteed way of ensuring, you know, continuity of supply. If you can store the original component that you were using using on your, PCB, then you can continue using that, that component. Obviously you can store, you know, Dai or package form and various complexities with both, but, yeah, it's the number one way of resolving obsolescence.
00:01:41:12 - 00:01:54:01
Ben
But it does take that for, for to and, and expense, you know, you got to go out there and buy the components and put them in stock and know they're going end of life in the first place, of course. But, yeah, is the most optimal way to project.
00:01:54:04 - 00:02:12:16
Charlotte
Yeah. Yeah, it does require quite a, a level of proactive kind of thinking and resilience and or even being aware that there is an obsolescence issue that's coming up or kind of hits you overnight. So what would make long term storage different from, say, just a standard warehouse that someone would use?
00:02:12:19 - 00:02:43:11
Ben
So that's the the concern with semiconductor components is, you know, especially in plastic form, and in and in wafer form as well. Is the they degrade over time if not stored in the correct condition. So, you know, your standard warehouse conditions, if a part's not in a moisture barrier bag, you know, it's going to be suffering the room humidity, that it's currently in an all plastic parts is a lot of people now have a moisture sensitivity level.
00:02:43:13 - 00:03:09:10
Ben
And that's really because moisture ingresses into the, into the, and permeates through the plastic, and can cause, damage internally within the component as well as causing other issues when you sort of heat the chip off and put it for a reflow, you can get an effect as well documented, called the popcorn effect, which sort of as the pop out gases, the, the sort of moisture that's internally within the component, it can sort of shatter the plastic.
00:03:09:12 - 00:03:25:08
Ben
But but really it's the, it's if you're keeping in a standard warehouse condition, it's going to, deteriorate. It's a very difficult thing. You know, it's semiconductors have only been sort of around and lost 50 or 60 years. So there's still a lot of jury's out on.
00:03:25:10 - 00:03:25:18
Charlotte
On.
00:03:25:18 - 00:04:03:03
Ben
Yeah. And it's very difficult to do, you know, long term studies, you know, over 20 or 30 years, to sort of see how chips degrade over that period in various conditions. And obviously the industry has been doing the best they can to to sort of resolve that one later. But, yeah, in terms of sort of how have the differences in warehouse conditions and, and sort of long term storage conditions, the long term storage conditions are in, cabinets that have a stable humidity, stable temperature, and can be flosser of nitrogen or not.
00:04:03:04 - 00:04:15:06
Ben
And obviously nitrogen being in and up, gas prevents oxidization and other sort of forms of degradation that can be caused by yeah, sort of into metallic roofs and things like that. Yeah.
00:04:15:06 - 00:04:40:05
Charlotte
A whole world of issues when they're exposed to the elements on a shelf effectively. And I guess that that's okay for certain kind of shorter term projects or parts that are being turned around quickly. But for the long term and the longevity of deposits, yeah, definitely makes a difference. Another question I hear quite a lot is I've got this chip, this part number, this semiconductor, is it appropriate for storage.
00:04:40:07 - 00:04:46:13
Charlotte
So I guess what kind of what kind of components can we actually store in long term storage?
00:04:46:18 - 00:05:12:18
Ben
Yeah, it is quite a wide ranging question. I mean, certainly plastic components of the, the, the first ones to sort of, point the finger out as being the most sort of delicate over a long term storage. And that's because they're not inherently somatic. So they, you know, they have they have ingress of moisture and they're not fully sealed, to the outside atmosphere, or the certainly the internal chip cavity is not, not, sealed to the outside, atmosphere.
00:05:12:18 - 00:05:46:03
Ben
So, all semiconductor devices can sort of subject to long term storage. Yeah. Plastic might be the most, sort of, sensitive in that regard. And then obviously, well, wafers as well, which is the internal silicon within, within a component. So yeah, plastic devices, wafers or dye. Ceramic components, mostly all if they automatically sell to metal standards, you don't have that risk of, of, moisture getting into the device cavity or any kind of atmospheric concerns.
00:05:46:05 - 00:06:04:14
Ben
And to, you know, to, to a less, to sort of lesser extent, any kind of sort of inter metallic issues because, you know, they're in a they've been sealed. Yeah. They've been nitrogen flushed prior to seal. So, you shouldn't have any kind of concerns there. But you still, you know, you still run into, you know, can the leads degrade in any, in any way?
00:06:04:14 - 00:06:30:08
Ben
A lot of ceramic components, have gold, coatings to, to metal standards. So again, that's, that's the sort of thing prior to them being tin. But that covers there. You know, it's just golden and up being a and metal store sort of stops oxidization and things like that. So really the answer to that is everything in ideal in ideal situations is, is suitable for long term storage.
00:06:30:10 - 00:06:52:04
Ben
You do want to control your temperature, humidity, and, and, you know, you know, not have them exposed to oxygen, or any other sort of, atmospheric conditions that could cause a concern. And then you've got materials on top of that, you know, use overall package materials. Yeah. Things like LEDs and that kind of thing.
00:06:52:05 - 00:07:10:04
Ben
They're on relatively short lead time, and they're just sort of a simple enough component that you can just sort of order them readily when you, when you need to do builds. But anything that doesn't have an inherent expiry date. Yeah. You know, certain things like epoxies and dye attaches and things like that, that they're readily available.
00:07:10:06 - 00:07:15:21
Ben
And, you know, one won't go obsolete in that regard. So, yeah. Okay.
00:07:15:21 - 00:07:22:06
Charlotte
Well, essentially anything isn't there that could affect pretty much, how the plays of later down the line.
00:07:22:08 - 00:07:28:12
Ben
Have an inherent expiry that, you know. Yeah. The, the you have to be aware of some of the might degrade the material.
00:07:28:17 - 00:07:53:23
Charlotte
Yeah. The another question that I hear a lot and is again, is a tricky one to answer for a few different reasons. Semiconductors haven't been around for that long. There's kind of not a lot of longitudinal data on how they perform and how they degrade over a long period of time, but how would someone ensure that whatever you're storing is fit for use when it comes out of the storage and it's being required?
00:07:54:00 - 00:07:55:04
Charlotte
Yeah, I mean, down the line.
00:07:55:07 - 00:08:20:22
Ben
The best way to do that is data. And data can be collected in the form of, you know, you if you've if you've built a batch or if you're buying a batch from, from an OEM, you know, you're going to have a set of characteristic data from that. And if you've done a good sort of parametric, capture of that, you're going to have a good set of results that, you know, as your starting point, can test again.
00:08:20:22 - 00:08:40:07
Ben
And then, you know, once you look at your, your, your sort of your, the duration of the storage you're going to need, you know, is a 10 or 20 years storage or less. Then you can build a plan that makes good sense, you know, sort of maybe every, 2 or 3 years, take some devices out, put them for an electrical test.
00:08:40:07 - 00:08:41:11
Charlotte
See how they put.
00:08:41:12 - 00:09:02:00
Ben
Yeah, and see how they perform. You could go right to the extreme in a very, very critical environment, you know, say a fly application. You could look at taking a small subset of devices out of storage and destroying them for a, a live test so you can put them for 1000 hour or 2000 hour life test to make sure you know that, that that's the real sort of actually on the extreme end.
00:09:02:00 - 00:09:22:02
Ben
But, you know, you can really scale up and down. And, when we store components of, for customers, we look at building a plan that makes sense. There's no point spending hundreds of thousands of, dollars or pounds, you know, testing these devices if you're storing them for a two, three, four, five life cycle.
00:09:22:02 - 00:09:38:03
Ben
But, you know, once you go into your ten and you 20, then you really want to put in some really solid break points that. Yeah, to really know exactly, that the parts are degrading, that, you know, they're going to be sold or when you, when you put, when you boards, and you're just going to have no issues.
00:09:38:03 - 00:09:42:01
Ben
Yeah. You take them out of storage and call them off and put them into permanent production.
00:09:42:05 - 00:10:01:08
Charlotte
Yeah. I think another conversation that we're often having with people who are sick, they come to us and say what we've been issued with the last time, but we have to make a decision. You know, they're thinking about the quantities. We would always say, don't just look at your what you need for production, a kind of build or buy extra because you never know.
00:10:01:09 - 00:10:15:01
Charlotte
You know how your quantity and how your demand is going to change over the life cycle. But also think about having extra so you can do some regular kind of milestone testing and it doesn't degrade from your production quantity. Yes. To that.
00:10:15:03 - 00:10:15:16
Ben
Point. Yeah.
00:10:15:19 - 00:10:27:21
Charlotte
Yeah. Bit of a good advice that we, we like sharing. So in terms of industry standards or best practices, can you talk a bit more about the industry standards.
00:10:28:01 - 00:10:48:01
Ben
Yeah. So there's there's there's two main ones I would say or two main organizations at the moment publishing guidelines for long term storage. That's the, the genetic specification, namely the JP 160 and the IEC specification, which I can never remember the reference for, but it's the it's predominantly aimed, long term wafer storage. Yeah.
00:10:48:03 - 00:11:15:23
Ben
Which is a somewhat different ballgame from storing components. The sort of JP 160 mainly talks to it does mention wafers, but it is mainly aimed to sort of, you know, plastic storage conditions. And then, what kind of, moisture sensitivity level they are, you know, and then ensuring that they're stored in for so for example, a plastic device, are you really going to be wanting to keep it under 5% RH.
00:11:16:01 - 00:11:34:19
Ben
Because that gives it an indefinite shelf life. All of these standards talk about, storing product in moisture barrier bags. So it's kind of a belt and braces operation. So you seal the parts of the moisture barrier bag, purged with nitrogen. Yeah. And then put it into a cabinet and, and then store and then periodically monitor it.
00:11:34:21 - 00:12:01:16
Ben
Yeah. But yes, it's again, it's something that again, semiconductors have only been around for 50 or 60 years. It's something that it's an ongoing process. You know, there's, there's very limited amount of white papers on semiconductor long term storage. But there have been, you know, enough there's been enough data collected. Now that we know that, you know, you can put semiconductors in storage now for 20 or 30 years.
00:12:01:21 - 00:12:06:13
Ben
Yeah. And I know at the end of that, they're going to be still serviceable.
00:12:06:14 - 00:12:30:10
Charlotte
Yeah. Yeah. For these. Yeah. How would we maintain traceability and documentation over time. Because obviously, you know, paper and electronic versions of documentation. And, you know, if you are looking in like 10 to 20 years, it's very easy to kind of things get lost or things don't get scanned or. So how would we tackle that side of it.
00:12:30:12 - 00:12:55:09
Ben
Yeah, I think I mean, we've got a, a very solid stocking, system. It's important that when documentation comes in that you do the correct level of checks to make sure that you've got the, the correct level of documentation coming in at that point, because it's, it, you know, we see customers all the time that they bring us away for and they don't they, they've, they've you know, some someone's thrown a bit of paperwork away that, you know, might have been the original CFC or packing originally.
00:12:55:11 - 00:13:17:23
Ben
And they've lost the traceability. Right from the start. So, you know, again, draw a line in the sand in the same way you do your logical data capture. Make sure you've got a good all the relevant documentation. That documentation goes right alongside the components in SD bags, and stays with the components in their location.
00:13:18:01 - 00:13:39:08
Ben
And you know, if the components come out of that, that location, the paperwork comes with it. It's logged out in the same way that the, the parts are logged out and then returned having suitable scans of everything as well, having electronic copies of everything because you know, paperwork itself. You know, it's just it's, it's, it's human error.
00:13:39:08 - 00:14:02:14
Ben
It's easy for a bit of paperwork sometimes to get to get lost. So having additional backups of everything kind of good. Yeah. Multiple backups of things is very important. But but, yeah, it's it's is just a consistent case, and it's, you know, if you're storing something with a company and that company goes out of, business making sure they've got a, a suitable, you know.
00:14:02:16 - 00:14:03:17
Charlotte
Data retention.
00:14:03:17 - 00:14:21:18
Ben
Yeah. A data retention plan. So we've got an indefinite, data retention plan. So, and, you know, that's that's important. We've been around for nearly 40 years now, but, yeah, making sure that you've got that full, full trace and full traceability right the way back to. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Day one.
00:14:21:20 - 00:14:39:11
Charlotte
The worst thing, I guess, is, you know, you do store something for 10 or 20 years and it is fit for use as we would expect it to be. But, you know, a page is missing of a document traceability document and then that renders that potentially unusable. And we do see that it has happened to customers just.
00:14:39:11 - 00:14:47:02
Ben
In our space environments, a single a single bit of paperwork lost could, you know, especially with like critical applications means you can't use that product anymore. Yeah.
00:14:47:04 - 00:15:06:02
Charlotte
Yeah. So you don't you want to make sure. Yes. You're doing a good job actually storing the pods. They're in all the right conditions. But you take them out and you look at the documentation, think, this is going to be an issue. Yeah. Another question is can customers access or record stock quickly if required? That might be one for me, but essentially, yes.
00:15:06:03 - 00:15:26:22
Charlotte
You know, it's your your stock, it's your your product. You can access it and record it as and when you want. Something I heard the other day was the customer said, oh, you know, how many months do we have to give you notice? We have to give you to recall our products. And I said, not that long and said, you know, depending on how much you're recalling, you can give as little notice as you want it.
00:15:26:22 - 00:15:28:09
Charlotte
Sure. As your product to recall.
00:15:28:14 - 00:15:50:05
Ben
Yeah. I mean, it's important in that regard. The only other sort of factor in that is if customers are, it's how the parts are packed. You know, if you've got tubes of components or trays of components, especially, parts that have extremely delicate legs, you need to make sure you go to zero packaging materials for that, something that you think about, you know, when you're building your plants prior, prior to it's like, how many are they going to be cooling off?
00:15:50:05 - 00:16:06:09
Ben
And and yeah, and it's good for customers to think about, well, if I'm, you know, I need 20 but you know they're in trays of 50, for example. You know what we're going to do with the additional additional unit. So they're going to yeah, they're going to sit on a shelf somewhere is not going to degrade them in any way.
00:16:06:11 - 00:16:15:01
Ben
And there are standards certainly on the genetic side of things that the cover that so it's just to make sure customers are mindful of that and building the correct plans at the start. Yeah.
00:16:15:01 - 00:16:33:11
Charlotte
Yeah, yeah. Planning it from the beginning. And a question we always ask is what is your call of schedule? And, you know, you can build the best call schedule in the world. But if 510 years down the line, quantities are changing, demand is changing. And you need less or more, then yeah, try and make sure that everyone's thought of that at the beginning of the year.
00:16:33:11 - 00:16:39:17
Charlotte
If things do change as they do in the semiconductor and aerospace world all the time. Yeah. Just building that in from the start.
00:16:39:22 - 00:16:48:04
Ben
Yeah. But I mean, at the same time just being flexible, you know, I mean, we are flexible if some if customer changes their requirements and we understand it and we'll.
00:16:48:06 - 00:16:49:03
Charlotte
Just.
00:16:49:05 - 00:16:50:04
Ben
Be malleable to that.
00:16:50:04 - 00:17:12:19
Charlotte
So yeah. Yeah. A final thought before I really span from all these questions. Can you store customer owned inventory or only parts you supply? Both. Yeah, we can do both. A lot of the time is customers are being forced to do certain last time buyers or certain purchases that therefore it is their own stock, their own material.
00:17:12:21 - 00:17:31:06
Charlotte
But it can also be stuff that we, we aid in the supply of. And we kind of, you know, suggests and route. So both and that comes back to the flexibility aspect of it. It's not for us to say and make the final decision of what a customer should and shouldn't store. We can only kind of guide of of what we think would be appropriate.
00:17:31:06 - 00:17:36:11
Charlotte
And what we've seen are the best practices from other customers, kind of best industry practices.
00:17:36:11 - 00:18:09:00
Ben
So yeah. So anything I think is important, especially if you're, if we're storing stuff that we've assembled ourselves and we know we've got the correct documentation and traceability, chains, but and the electrical testing, sort of data capture. But if you're storing sort of a customer's material, then we need to, you know, if they don't have any kind of trace or electrical documentation or test documentation, then we can put plans in place to sort of test that product and give them that line in the sand.
00:18:09:00 - 00:18:23:03
Ben
Start off with. And of course, if customers waive that, then, you know, you're sort of guaranteeing your storage conditions for read and record and and then yeah, doing sort of, you know, periodic testing on it. Yeah. But it's yeah.
00:18:23:05 - 00:18:39:16
Charlotte
Just tailor it to the customer and the project needs what the part is, is there's so many kind of factors that go into it that is kind of the fun of planning. A lot of storage projects sometimes is, you know, what are all these considerations? Let's discuss them. Let's get them sorted right at the beginning so you don't get any surprises down.
00:18:39:17 - 00:18:44:23
Ben
Yeah, it's definitely not just buying it in the cabinet and see if, if it works at the end. There's a there's a lot to it.
00:18:45:00 - 00:18:54:12
Charlotte
There's a lot to there is. All right. Well that will conclude today's episode of Force Tech Talk. And we look forward to seeing you on the next one.
00:18:54:14 - 00:18:55:12
Ben
Thanks. Thank you.