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Hosts Spencer Horn and Christian Napier discuss a better way to build and strengthen teams in any organization.
Christian Napier
00:13 - 00:28
Hello everyone and welcome to a very special holiday week, Christmas week edition of Teamwork at the Better Way. I'm Christian Napier and I am joined by my man in baby blue, that's what it looks like on my camera anyway, Spencer Horne. Spencer, how you doing?
Spencer Horn
00:29 - 00:37
I am wonderful, good to be with you Christian. Happy holidays, Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah.
Christian Napier
00:38 - 00:45
Happy holidays to you as well, Spencer. Are you staying in town or are you going to go travel for the... No, no.
Spencer Horn
00:45 - 01:00
Yeah, we're here. We had a beautiful weekend of family activities and went to the Luminaria. And the first time in I don't know how many years we weren't freezing our took us is off. I mean, it was, it's so warm right now.
Spencer Horn
01:00 - 01:17
I mean, it's, it's like seven degrees or forties and fifties if you're, you know, Fahrenheit, uh, world, but you know, seven to 10 degrees right now. And for those international listeners, it's just weird. The ski resorts have no snow. I'm, I'm flummoxed.
Christian Napier
01:18 - 01:32
It is super weird. My wife and I had to run a few last-minute Christmas shopping errands this morning. Got in the car. It was 60 degrees Fahrenheit outside, which is about 16 degrees Celsius.
Christian Napier
01:32 - 01:47
That's incredibly warm for the morning. Our heat never, I don't know, last two, three days, our heat hasn't even kicked on. Like it's just stayed warm in our house. It's the most unusual December that I can remember, but it's also great.
Christian Napier
01:48 - 02:00
We're staying around. Our daughter and her husband just got back from New Zealand on Friday night. They're staying with us for the holidays. And so, yeah, we're just having family time here.
Spencer Horn
02:01 - 02:02
Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful.
Christian Napier
02:02 - 02:14
Okay. Well, without further ado, Spencer, uh, let's introduce our guests because this is a fantastic time of the year and we have a fantastic guest to spend it with. So Spencer do the honors.
Spencer Horn
02:15 - 02:54
So excited to introduce to you all Graham Skidmore, who is a former rocket mortgage executive, and he's turned into a visionary entrepreneur who builds systems that honor the soul and foster sovereignty and integrate ethical AI to create space. for the new to emerge, whether it's his own or assisting others. And that's something that is so important in today's discussions. And I know Christian, this is a topic that's near and dear to your heart as someone who's an AI practitioner, is how do you keep the heart and soul and honor that with using these technology tools that can help cause us to lose our soul if we're not
Spencer Horn
02:54 - 03:29
careful. But after two decades of helping design and scale one of corporate America's most influential operational engines, Graham stepped away from that conventional success and what initially appeared to be burnout evolved into a spiritual initiation that redirected his life towards restoring power to the people and reclaiming personal sovereignty through tools, resources, and knowledge transfers for personal empowerment. I mean, I cannot, I could go on literally for days with his bio.
Spencer Horn
03:29 - 03:44
There's so much that he's working on. And we have the opportunity to really dig into this. But I do want to kind of wrap up here. You know, he says he has lived, his lived experience has taught him about Earth's intelligent design.
Spencer Horn
03:44 - 04:00
I want to learn about that. That insight is starting to point his work. And for the guidance, he offers the truth that people are more important than a body, than, oh my gosh, I'm having a hard time reading. I don't know what my problem is today.
Spencer Horn
04:01 - 04:25
People are more important than a body that consciousness incarnates here with purpose. This is so exciting that he's talking about. But today our episode is, How do we get beyond burnout? How do we build team performance by investing in, in humans rather than just technology, which seems to be all the rage today.
Spencer Horn
04:25 - 04:31
So welcome Graham. Let me get you on this, on the stage here with us. We're so glad to have you welcome.
Graham Skidmore
04:31 - 04:39
Thank you for your patience and thank you for that very kind intro. And based on this being a holiday week and the way everything was talked up, I guess I better bring my A-game here.
Spencer Horn
04:40 - 05:01
I'm looking forward to your conversation. Even technology can sometimes rip our soul out a little bit, can it, when we have to deal with challenges? But you're, you, you know, the game we're going to be fine. Just talk about what inspired you to, to really focus on this purpose and outcome approach that you talk about purpose and outcome.
Spencer Horn
05:02 - 05:03
And how did you first see it come to life?
Graham Skidmore
05:05 - 05:22
Yeah, it's a great question. So back in the, back in my, you know, the corporate days here before I kind of went on my little walkabout. I would struggle. I would spend a week a month in an office in LA and then three weeks in Michigan.
Graham Skidmore
05:23 - 05:41
Whenever I would be gone, I would come back and whatever plans we had, whatever things would be totally changed, which that makes it very challenging to gain traction, get things done. I said, all right, this is crazy. I ended up realizing I had a handful of problems I needed to solve for. One of them was the trust and delegation.
Graham Skidmore
05:41 - 06:03
How can I delegate to people and have confidence that they know what's going on? Two, then there was also the retention of quality people because, at that time, overseeing marketing was my focus. I couldn't keep good people if they were just a cog in the wheel and being treated like a retention center. Let's face it.
Graham Skidmore
06:03 - 06:27
I had plenty of experts that knew how to do their jobs way better than I did. However, I needed to be able to come up with a system that allowed them to flourish and to be able to bring their expertise to the game as opposed to getting sidetracked by the next thing, which you saw before, is a shiny object syndrome. that happens when somebody with a title comes into a meeting and wants to work on the latest and greatest thing, and then things get derailed. So I said, all right, this is nuts.
Graham Skidmore
06:27 - 06:52
I've got to find a way to align the people within marketing with the people that are working with marketing, but not make it so rigid that that is inflexible, right? So I said, all right, how do we create a common language with everybody and get everybody rolling in the same direction? Because we should all be aligned. I'm here to do one thing, which is generate leads, generate revenue for the company, and profitably grow market share.
Graham Skidmore
06:52 - 07:12
So we shouldn't be getting each other sidetracked every time we talk. All of our stuff should be rolling in the same direction. So that's how the purpose and outcome document was born. And it first started with, changing the lens that I saw the world with and that I wanted the rest of the world to see.
Graham Skidmore
07:14 - 07:30
And so that was starting with looking at everything as an investment as opposed to an expense. Essentially, my take was there really should not be any expenses. Everything should be an investment. And if everything's an investment, then you're investing because you have a purpose that you're investing in something you want to achieve.
Graham Skidmore
07:30 - 07:47
And then you have an outcome that demonstrates that your purpose was accomplished. So how do we create a framework that you know, a thinking framework that aligns everybody on, hey, this is why we're doing what we're doing. And this is how we're going to know that if what we're supposed to be doing is actually happening. And that was where the purpose and outcome kind of framework started.
Spencer Horn
07:47 - 07:52
So let me pause there since I... No, when you introduced that, what was the response?
Graham Skidmore
07:55 - 08:15
Well, it was in marketing, which was typically a subjective area. And, you know, people's income was basically salary and a yearly bonus. And the people in marketing were like, Hey, we're doing all this work, we're generating all this revenue, we're doing these great things, but we're not necessarily being compensated accordingly. So I don't disagree with you.
Graham Skidmore
08:15 - 08:37
However, what we then what we need to do is find a way to add some objectivity tie you into some revenue. And, you know, and put you into more of a, you know, sales type compensation plan. Now, based on the, you know, the way that Rocky mortgage, quick loans worked at the time, anytime you went into a variable compensation plan, there was also a bit of scratch in the game. So that also meant that, you know, your income could go down, which for those in marketing, there's a certain stability.
Graham Skidmore
08:38 - 08:58
Initially, it was like, yeah, we want more income. Whoa, wait a second here. What do you mean things could go a little sideways here if I don't hit my numbers? We definitely had a bit of a learning curve to get everybody comfortable and confident that we could increase objectivity.
Graham Skidmore
08:58 - 09:30
And increasing that objectivity would allow them to then, you know, make the type of income that they deserve to be making or were worthy of making based on the contributions they were making. But, you know, I had to work within the kind of the confines of the compensation structures that the organization was comfortable with. And so, yeah, so, you know, it was interesting how watching a group of people that, you know, wanted to demonstrate their value that they were bringing to the table, all of a sudden become a little bit more gun shy once it came to being measured, but we worked our way.
Graham Skidmore
09:30 - 09:34
I mean, that was a challenge, right?
Spencer Horn
09:34 - 09:38
Because accountability is always something that people might push back on, right?
Graham Skidmore
09:38 - 09:39
Yes, yes.
Spencer Horn
09:41 - 09:59
But even the senior executives, that's what I was more concerned about because they come in and say, hey, we want to go in this direction. You're like, wait a minute. How do we get, how do we get aligned with you towards what we talked about last week or whatever? Anyway, Christian, I don't know if that's where your thought was going.
Spencer Horn
09:59 - 10:00
Go ahead.
Christian Napier
10:00 - 10:26
Well, my actually where my thought was going is. Graham, you were doing what lots and lots of other people were doing, which is trying to figure out how to make things work in this large corporate structure. And millions and millions of people are in that position, right? They're trying to do good things.
Christian Napier
10:26 - 10:43
They're trying to be productive. They're trying to generate value. They're trying to be good, dependable, hardworking, smart employees. And yet you decided at some point in time, I'm going to walk away from that.
Christian Napier
10:44 - 11:02
And as you said, you went on a bit of a walkabout. So I'm wondering if you can kind of talk to us about that, like how you What prompted you to to make a change like this you know sometimes people say okay? I'm burned out. I'm tired.
Christian Napier
11:02 - 11:15
I'm gonna go just try to find another job Maybe the grass is greener over there But you went on a very different journey, and so I'm wondering if you can just kind of walk us through what that journey was
Graham Skidmore
11:15 - 11:37
Yeah, and Spencer, to answer your question real quick, the senior executives were actually very happy. Anything that was tied, anything that was variable and compensation-wise that went up and down with revenue was always embraced with open arms. To answer your question, Christian, it wasn't hard. I mean, it was hard in the sense that I never thought that I would leave.
Graham Skidmore
11:38 - 11:59
People there never thought I would leave, but It got to the spot where, and by the way, what I stand for today is obviously very different than what it stood for back then. Back then, people would say things to me like, yeah, Graham will get the job done, but he's going to leave a bunch of dead bodies. You get a risk of leaving a bunch of dead bodies in the wake. A taskmaster was definitely a sign to me.
Graham Skidmore
12:00 - 12:14
Empathy and sympathy were not necessarily. People knew I had a good heart, so they gave me the benefit of the doubt. But I definitely didn't demonstrate the empathy and sympathy that I always needed to. And that wasn't necessarily who I was, though.
Graham Skidmore
12:14 - 12:31
So I remember seeing a J, who was the CEO at the time, who I reported to. I said, sometimes I don't even know who I am anymore. I feel like I'm just a mixture of learned behaviors and habits to figure out how to get along. Because things didn't necessarily make sense to me.
Graham Skidmore
12:31 - 12:58
Things were not intuitive to me. And the constant misunderstanding between myself and others created a lot of pain for me and a lot of heartache. And so we got to a point where what I needed to do to make it work was no longer working. And so we decided to part ways.
Graham Skidmore
12:58 - 13:15
And then after parting ways in June 2018, I said, all right, this is crazy. this can't be right because I've checked all the boxes that life tells me I'm supposed to check and I've never felt worse. And so this game of life can't be, there's gotta be something I'm missing. What is it?
Graham Skidmore
13:15 - 13:33
And so I said, look, before I can go into corporate America again, or before I can do anything professionally, I gotta figure out what's going on with me. I gotta figure out how to be my best self. I gotta figure out how to be happy and comfortable in my own skin. I gotta figure out who I am before I can do anything else and make any other contributions.
Graham Skidmore
13:33 - 13:41
And so it was kind of like, you know, I got sick and tired of feeling sick and tired. And so the decision to focus on myself was very obvious.
Spencer Horn
13:54 - 14:27
You know, Graham, that's so important that we sometimes neglect ourselves. We neglect our feelings for just the, in a way, it's a self-sacrifice that we make in service of what seems to be the good of the company, when in fact, that creates, it's counterintuitive. We actually create less productivity and less success when we neglect ourselves, and it seems counterintuitive. I'm not sure what that background feed is, do you guys?
Spencer Horn
14:29 - 14:43
No, I have my mic muted. We haven't had that before, so I apologize. But, but, but we, you know, it's, it's like parents, right? If you neglect your relationship with your, with your partner, you can't, you can't be the parent you need to be.
Spencer Horn
14:43 - 14:47
If you neglect yourself, you can't be the team leader that your team needs you to be.
Graham Skidmore
14:47 - 15:05
Yeah. And, and, and there's only just so much that everybody around you can do, right? Like I didn't lack. people being willing to reach out or to help me, but the challenge was they were reaching out and helping me based on what they needed from me, based on the box they believed that I should fit in, based on, right?
Graham Skidmore
15:05 - 15:24
It wasn't about helping me to understand, it was just helping me to be a better parent, right? Which when things weren't already intuitive or making sense to me, I needed to be able to get my feet underneath me before I could, you know, take in all of these other things that people were trying to gravitate me towards, right? So yeah, so there was one of those things where I didn't, there was no other way I could have done it. Right.
Graham Skidmore
15:24 - 15:26
I couldn't fix the plane while I was flying it.
Spencer Horn
15:26 - 15:47
I had to land the plane. Well, you mentioned a while ago, this idea of, instead of looking at, you know, the expense on the team to, to shift it to investment, you believe that performance starts with investing in people. Right. And, and, and, and so what do you mean and how, how do you do that?
Spencer Horn
15:47 - 15:50
And why is that so often overlooked in organizations?
Graham Skidmore
15:53 - 16:24
You know, it's a great question. One of the things that I do is a belief I always had was that you can't hold somebody accountable until they've demonstrated to you that they know how to do the job. So my role as a leader was to work with this person to make sure that they had the knowledge, the competency, the tools, We were aligned on the measurements of success. Only then, after that competency was demonstrated, could I legitimately hold this person accountable to actually doing the job.
Graham Skidmore
16:24 - 16:55
What I found out many times, whenever there would be disconnects, disagreements, et cetera, was that it usually occurred as a lack of alignment and communication, whether it would be people operating from a different set of facts or a different set of measurements of success. The key to problem solving, bringing people together, building the bridges, was getting people aligned on, hey, these are the facts of the situation. These are the measurements of success. Now, based on this, what are our options and our paths of actually getting there?
Graham Skidmore
16:56 - 17:30
And then once we were aligned on the measurements of success and the facts, it usually became much easier to bring everybody together on the actual strategies and tactics. And so, look, I think that one of the challenges that, at least from my experiences, was that it takes time, right? We're all busy and everyone's kind of got their full-time job. And so, being able to take the time, step back, sit down with your team, make sure that people understand, communicate, follow up, be involved, all of that takes a lot of time and it takes a lot of brain power.
Graham Skidmore
17:30 - 17:53
And I think, in many times, we throw either some KPIs out there and just assume that the KPIs are then people will understand how to self-govern with that. And many times, that's not the case. Especially if there's shiny object syndrome where KPIs are what's valued as a moving target, now you've put people in a very reactionary position where they're just waiting to be told what to do. Then the leader is like, well, why aren't you taking initiative?
Graham Skidmore
17:53 - 18:13
Well, the team member is like, well, it's because you're changing what matters in the KPIs every other month. When I take initiative, then you tell me I'm doing what you don't want me to do, so now We've created this self-fulfilling prophecy of me not taking initiative because I'm having to be reactive for you to tell me what you want to do because you're stuck with shiny object syndrome. I was like, all right, this is a crazy hamster we've got to get off of.
Graham Skidmore
18:13 - 18:35
Anyway, that's my story on why I feel like some of these challenges of just misalignment occur. Then if you have misalignment in your verbal conversations and what the roles and expectations are, then it's darn near impossible to be able to create technology and workflows to support things when there's a lack of an underlying logic that's pinning everything together.
Christian Napier
18:35 - 19:16
That makes so much sense. So Graham, following on that, how do we change the mindset of companies? Deloitte just released recently a study showing that looking at the spend, companies are investing, I'm putting that in air quotes here, investing in AI transformations, 93% of that investment is spent on the technology and 7% is spent on the people. So, putting your marketing hat back on, how do you reverse that trend?
Christian Napier
19:17 - 19:28
How do you get companies, the organizations to say, hey, it's more than just investing in this new AI technology, we have to invest in the people.
Graham Skidmore
19:30 - 19:59
Yeah, you know, I think that one of the, this kind of goes into the intelligent design, but I won't go down that rabbit hole. I think there's, touching on my comment about the underlying logic, if there's not an underlying logic that ties everything together, now what you're left with is navigating chaos, right? And now navigating chaos comes down to predictability, typically, right? And a computer is better at figuring out predictability, generally speaking, than humans.
Graham Skidmore
20:00 - 20:31
And so when you think, and again, based on my experiences, the disconnect comes between, this could upset some people, but sometimes the truth hurts, is that the managers or the leaders, there can be a tendency to underappreciate or undervalue the work that's required by your team. And so what'll happen is, let's say a problem arises and then the manager says, I don't understand why you couldn't solve it. Look, I got involved and I solved it in two seconds. What's the big deal, right?
Graham Skidmore
20:31 - 20:45
And so, from the manager's perspective, whenever they get involved in the teams, it's always a fraction of what's required to be done. And so, they say, well, how do I get my team to think more like me? Well, let me grab some technology. Let me figure out where I see my team not acting the way that I want them to.
Graham Skidmore
20:45 - 21:07
Now, let me try to put some guardrails, some framework, a workflow, boundaries in place that kind of force them, kind of like bumper bowling, right, into play. And then you've got the team members who are like, hey, that's cool, this stuff is great and all. However, it doesn't actually take into consideration all of my work. You've touched on about 20% of what I actually do.
Graham Skidmore
21:08 - 21:40
And so in some cases, you've actually created more work for me because you didn't take the time to sit and walk in my shoes to understand what I actually have to do to really recognize the barriers preventing me from doing this. And so the first step that needs to occur is alignment about what matters, who each person should, who should be doing what. Again, it goes back to creating some objectivity, whether it be the measurements of success or what it looks like when it is operating properly. to empower the experts to do their job.
Graham Skidmore
21:40 - 22:03
And so I think that way too many times things are built from the top down that the leader is saying, this is what we want versus the team members going, that's cool, but this is what we need. If you want me to be able to, you know, you want me to be able to run the four minute mile, then you're going to have to get me a nutritionist. You're going to have to get me a physical coach, you know, a breathing coach, all these other types of things. And instead, sometimes the leader just goes, ah, if we just run behind you with a cattle pride, you'll get there.
Spencer Horn
22:04 - 22:34
You know what, I'm dealing with this with a major client. I don't want to give any away, but it's really interesting. There is a department within this large organization that feels pressure from above and from below what they're required to do. And there's a disconnect between what they're required to do and the authority and the power that they actually have to effectuate what leadership wants them to do.
Spencer Horn
22:34 - 23:35
different dynamics like sometimes there are cultural issues depending on where people are from if they make a mistake the perception is I'm gonna be out right because I'm not you know, I'm not part of the native population I mean, so there's some real fears that go on in major organizations that not only do you have structural pressures, but then you have cultural and and all kinds of things so I I mean I I see what you're saying and I would love for you if you if you could for our listeners Graham and I don't know I'm trying to text you or something but if you could maybe mute your microphone while while you're not talking perfect So anyway, is there a way that you could give a specific example of where this has worked for you? You don't have to name the company unless you want to, but I'd love to just make it tangible for our listeners of how you did this and an outcome that it produced.
Spencer Horn
23:35 - 23:37
I would so be excited to hear that.
Graham Skidmore
23:41 - 24:20
Yeah, I mean, I'll stick to the the Quicken Loans and even just the mortgage industry was very obviously the industry that I came from. And it was the initial measurement of success was the ability to, I would count this, I can increase your ROI and your lead generation by 20 to 30% simply by getting the experts focused in the areas that matter and allowing the experts to bring their expertise. One of them was Google. a large advertiser with Google, and I was with the paid search guy, and it was like, yeah, we really don't have much else we can do.
Graham Skidmore
24:21 - 25:04
There isn't much else that we can do in terms of selling inventory, which was kind of a surprise and also a challenge, because we had some big growth goals. And so we had to restructure how we define success, and I had to You know, and I had to, and I had to trust, right, which is, and I had to trust the, you know, Eric, who was the SEO guy and paid search on the, what the right way was and what was possible to measure things, right? Because a lot of that was, I came at it with the traditional KPIs, the traditional measurements of success with ROI, and then tried to fit solutions into the, into that box.
Graham Skidmore
25:04 - 25:12
And that no longer was fitting it. So I had to work with Eric to recreate that box with different, with different measurements. I'm trying to think of at this moment in time.
Spencer Horn
25:14 - 25:16
This is what happens when they put you on the spot like this.
Graham Skidmore
25:17 - 25:35
No, that's all right. But what I can tell you is that, but what I can say is that in doing so by allowing the experts, every single time I allow the experts to get involved. with saying, hey, Graham, this is actually what's available by measuring it this way, we increase things. So we went from Google saying, hey, you got nothing, there's no more inventory for you, to being able to increase our spend by 20%.
Graham Skidmore
25:35 - 25:48
And when you're spending $100 million, 20%, finding $20 million extra to spend is very meaningful. And so that same thing occurred in both paid search and in direct mail where we were supposedly tapped out.
Christian Napier
25:49 - 26:21
OK. I'm interested in all this, but I'll just be quiet up front. I am even more interested in the nonprofit engine, what you're doing there, this nexus of spirituality, technology, and the intellectual side of things. I'm curious about how that came about.
Christian Napier
26:21 - 26:33
You said, OK, I quit this corporate life. I went and did my walkabout. And that's taking you in a very interesting direction. And I would like to learn more about that.
Christian Napier
26:33 - 26:39
So maybe you can just give us a little bit more context about that journey and how you've arrived at where you're at now.
Graham Skidmore
26:42 - 26:53
All right. OK. So we're going to go here. So one of the things is that after leaving you know, the corporate world and saying, Hey, I gotta get to understand myself.
Graham Skidmore
26:53 - 27:02
You know, I went, I started going to the traditional doctors, right? And then I get put down. And so I started to understand myself through a neurodivergent lives. Right?
Graham Skidmore
27:02 - 27:09
And so, you know, I mean, like, I'm sure there's probably people relate. So I was like, Okay, well, what are you so what's going on? Why? Why doesn't the world make sense to me?
Graham Skidmore
27:09 - 27:24
So I took some tasks and okay, well, you are dyslexic, dyscalculia, which is math dyslexia. Alexithymia, autistic, ADHD, Irlen syndrome, which is why I got these shades. And there's like something else. I was like, all right, cool.
Graham Skidmore
27:24 - 27:27
That's enough for me. I got enough to work with it. Right. And so on.
Graham Skidmore
27:27 - 27:30
So it started out as okay, that's diagnosing me.
Spencer Horn
27:30 - 27:32
I got enough to deal with right now.
Graham Skidmore
27:32 - 27:51
That's right. I was like, okay, that's cool. And so, so it served a good purpose initially, because it gave me some, you know, traits, characteristics to be able to, um, put words to that I couldn't and to feelings and experiences that I couldn't before. But then, you know, like with any labels, and then it also came into a box and limiting and I'm like, this is crazy, right?
Graham Skidmore
27:52 - 28:31
I'm not the I don't care for the negative connotations, and the unproductive stereotypes associated with associated with a lot of these labels. And so then I started to understand myself through spiritual minds and understanding myself as a being of consciousness versus a conscious being, which just means that, you know, this is, I just refer to myself as, hey, I've got my consciousness as my identity. I'm just happening to be rocking this human suit, having a physical experience here. And so between all of these various experiences through Western, Eastern, indigenous, spiritual, and getting to know myself and getting comfortable in my own skin, you know, one of the things that I recognized was, and the people aren't broken, it's the systems that are broken.
Graham Skidmore
28:31 - 28:40
The systems that believe we're one size fits all, We're all meant to learn the same way. We're all meant to think the same way. We're all meant to be the same way. It's crazy.
Graham Skidmore
28:40 - 28:54
Number one, if we're all the same thing, a society doesn't function and doesn't grow. It creates its own box, right? If it creates its own box, now you've actually created a self-fulfilling prophecy where AI becomes better than humans because it's not growing. It's just about an optimization game.
Graham Skidmore
28:54 - 29:28
NGen was born because, look, the world is full of people that, quote, unquote, feel don't fit into the status quo, or don't fit into this box that we're told that we're supposed to. Me talking to people and saying, the systems are broken, that's nothing new. All kinds of people have been talking about broken systems forever. If I really want to create change, what I need to do is to demonstrate that there's another way to play this game of life, demonstrate that there's another approach to business, demonstrate that there's another approach to health and wellness.
Graham Skidmore
29:28 - 29:55
It's focused on the individual, not the individual to better fit inside the box, right? Like I talked about having a challenge with people wanting to help me as an individual, but it was still an individual to conform, right? I'm talking about Graham as a person with his own set of goals, his own set of inherent design that I needed to understand so that I could have my feet underneath me and feel comfortable and confident in my own skin. Then I could go out and confidently navigate the world.
Graham Skidmore
29:56 - 30:31
Then I could feel confident in my gifts. When I felt confident that I was picking up on the world properly versus constantly being corrected, then I could bring my gifts, abilities, and wisdom to my work. Enjin was born to create a place and a safe space for people to learn how to be themselves so that they can then go out and operate at their maximum potential. And so that was where NGIN was born, was to create a proof of concept to demonstrate that the systems are broken, not the people.
Christian Napier
30:35 - 31:03
All right. I think this is totally fascinating. One of the challenges that you might hear from skeptics is, and I don't include myself in there, but I'm just going to play devil's advocate here. Oh, well, if we just let everybody be themselves and it's not about conforming to any particular thing, then we just have chaos and anarchy.
Christian Napier
31:04 - 31:36
So the purveyors of the system, whatever that system might be, Say well, we have these boxes to prevent anarchy and chaos. So so how can we? Enable individuals to realize their maximum potential while at the same time Preventing everything from just falling into anarchy and chaos or ultimately entropy and the system just dies, you know How do you kind of overcome this perceived? dilemma
Graham Skidmore
31:38 - 31:58
Yeah, no, and it's a very valid point. My comment back to that is twofold. One is, I'm not anti-box and I'm not saying that there aren't supposed to be boundaries or rules of the road that we're all supposed to operate into. That kind of gets back into the purpose and outcome.
Graham Skidmore
31:59 - 32:32
But the challenge becomes that Your why behind why you might do what you do is different than my why. And so if you're trying to help me understand why what I'm doing isn't fitting inside of this box or the set of expectations that I need to do, well, then you need to address my why properly. So the individualization really ties into a lot more of the diagnostic and then the support system. It's not so much about changing the endgame that we're all operating, especially inside of an organization or society.
Graham Skidmore
32:32 - 33:04
Whenever you enter into an organization or society, we all are agreeing to operate within some sort of moral code or obligations, expectations that we need to perform to. Everything is still geared towards that aligned outcome. This goes back to the purpose and outcome and why that's so important. the more aligned, the more that I understand what you expect of me and that what it looks like when I'm providing that versus what it looks like when I'm not providing that, then the better that I can self-govern.
Graham Skidmore
33:05 - 33:32
So it still goes back into investing in the conversation as an individual with me, investing in the fact that my why might be different than your why. My reason for getting frustrated might not be the reason that you're getting frustrated. So if you try to provide me the coaching, that works for you, it might not work for me. And so then you get frustrated with me because you think I'm either disregarding you or blowing you off or not listening to you.
Graham Skidmore
33:33 - 33:46
But no, the reality is it's just not resonating with me. It's just not making sense to me. And so I need you to be patient and talk it through with me. Then once I can get on the same page with you, now we can work on holding me accountable.
Graham Skidmore
33:46 - 34:17
But until you have helped me to get on the same page with you, holding me accountable isn't going to achieve desired result that either one of us are looking for. I think that the other big part of this is starting with the belief system that we all come to work because we want to make a positive impact. We want to do a good job. None of us are coming to work going, I want to come in, and I want to do a horrible job, and I want to get yelled at.
Graham Skidmore
34:18 - 34:33
Giving people the benefit of the doubt, and when things aren't working, recognizing that it's not the person. We just need to individualize our approach. Does that answer the question? I went a long way around the mountain on that.
Spencer Horn
34:34 - 34:56
I'm a little slower than you, Christian, but I think I understand it. So to me, it's really not about the means and methods of achieving the purpose and the outcome. It's about being aligned about what that purpose and outcome is, and then holding you accountable to what you've agreed that is. And I may achieve that differently than you do, Graham, or Christian.
Spencer Horn
34:57 - 35:07
I mean, I had an experience in 2008. I started working for a leadership training development company. who did business a very specific way. That's the box that you're talking about, right?
Spencer Horn
35:07 - 35:40
The salespeople would only follow a script and they all had a book of business, right? And the only way that you could really get your next customer is when somebody went through the training, the training would crack them wide open and they would be under the ether, if you will, and you would have a script to get them to refer other people. Well, I came into that organization, they originally hired me to do organizational development training. Then the 2008 recession hit, just crushed the company, sales cut in half overnight.
Spencer Horn
35:40 - 35:58
So they said, you need to sell. And then they taught me their system. The problem is that system didn't work for me because I had no book of business. And so I had to say, OK, how can I create the outcome of increasing sales but not follow this system because that system doesn't work for me?
Spencer Horn
35:59 - 36:15
That's how I am interpreting what you're talking about. You may be an individual, whether you're neurodivergent or you have different perspectives or you see things differently, you're like, hey, I'm going to get to that purpose and outcome, but I'm going to do it counter to what you're telling me. Am I off base here?
Graham Skidmore
36:17 - 36:43
Yeah, I think that's right. That's exactly right. That's where innovation and invention comes from is doing things differently, right? By allowing people to bring their creative problem-solving to the table by focusing on the end game versus how we get there, in my experience, that's when organizations really thrive and are innovative, is when they allow their
Spencer Horn
36:51 - 36:56
Sorry about that, Graham. That was a great point. You're so right. That's when they get excited.
Spencer Horn
36:56 - 37:08
And for me, that's what got me into the speaking business. Because I'm like, OK, how can I generate leads and pull traffic instead of doing it the normal way? And I started public speaking. And it worked.
Spencer Horn
37:09 - 37:29
And it works great. But that's exactly what you're talking about. That's what creates innovation. And what I'm hearing you say is if we can actually create that methodology, then it's not necessarily for people that don't fit into that normal box.
Spencer Horn
37:29 - 37:33
Everybody can use this methodology to innovate, is what I'm hearing you say.
Graham Skidmore
37:35 - 38:00
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, whether somebody identifies as any labels are neurodivergent or neurotypical, I think that Everybody wants to do well, and everybody wants to be heard, and everybody feels good when they are able to come up with a solution to a problem and receive acknowledgement. The organization benefits when things can be done better, faster, cheaper, more effectively. Yes, it's win-win solutions.
Christian Napier
38:02 - 38:26
All right, I want to talk about that better, faster, cheaper, more efficiently thing and tie it back to the comment you made about AI. So I work in AI for a living, right? What you posited there, which I think is correct, is most organizations are looking at AI from an optimization perspective, right? How can I run a leaner operation?
Christian Napier
38:26 - 39:07
How can I get things done more efficiently? I'm really curious to get your take on AI because it really is a fascinating technology that has all kinds of potential benefits and drawbacks. And bringing AI into the equation here is going to be very disruptive, I think, for a lot of organizations. And so I'm curious to kind of get your overall take on what you're seeing over what's been transpiring over the last couple of years with companies starting to introduce this really game-changing technology.
Graham Skidmore
39:11 - 39:27
Yeah. I think there's been way… Again, I'm making broad strokes here. Most measurements of success are tied into ROI for a lot of reasons. Whenever you're going to invest in something, you want to know that you're getting your money's worth.
Graham Skidmore
39:28 - 40:05
Dropping extra money to the bottom line and becoming more profitable is an easy way to say, hey, something's working. I think anybody who's ever focused on optimization, yeah, any time you start in a new area, you There are gains to be had, but then they get to a spot where you can only squeeze just so much water from a stone. The current focus with AI being on efficiency versus effectiveness is where I draw the line. Efficiency, to me, is how can I do the same things?
Graham Skidmore
40:06 - 40:40
cheaply as possible where effectiveness is, okay, now that I've figured out a better way to do it, how can I do more of it? The only way to do more of it is through innovation, innovative thinking, creativity, and that's where the humans come into play. I think focusing and helping humans to understand the right questions to ask so that AI access information much more quickly, let AI pick up on Patterns. Let AI put together summaries.
Graham Skidmore
40:40 - 41:20
Let AI do a lot of the heavy lifting and the manpower that it used to take so that humans can spend their time focusing on the actual solutions, so that experts can focus their time on problem-solving and creative solutions as opposed to putting together information. I feel like that's really where a lot of the big win can come in. Again, if there's a lack of direction on, this is why your division in this company exists, then it's really hard for AI to maximize its potential. This goes back to alignment on measurements of success.
Graham Skidmore
41:20 - 41:37
The more defined and objective that we can make our measurements of success, then the better humans can use their experience and creativity to work with. a tool like AI that can do a lot of the heavy lifting to come up with better solutions faster to keep moving things forward.
Spencer Horn
41:53 - 41:56
I'm yielding my time to you, Christian, because I know you got more.
Christian Napier
41:56 - 42:22
Oh, yeah, we could go on for days. I think that you're spot on here, Graham. You know, when we look at technology, which I've spent over 30 years in the tech industry or in working in technology, If you boil it down, there are really four fundamental ways that technology can assist your operation. One is to drive efficiency, as you just mentioned.
Christian Napier
42:23 - 42:40
Two is to improve the quality of your operation. And three is to ensure that you are compliant with all of the rules and policies and so on and so forth. And the fourth one is to enhance your decision making. You get presented with more information.
Christian Napier
42:40 - 43:04
It can use models to validate or challenge your assumptions. Not all of those, in my view, are weighted equally by organizations. And sometimes there are conflicts. It's like, oh, we can drive further against an efficiency, but that could adversely impact our quality.
Christian Napier
43:04 - 43:34
Or to have more information so that we can make better decisions, we have to put in a less efficient process. And so there's a tension behind these potential ways that technology can help. leaders have to make decisions like, okay, which way are we going to go? Are we going to lean hard on efficiency?
Christian Napier
43:35 - 44:08
Or are we going to focus on quality? Are we going to focus on decision making at the expense of the others? And so one of the questions that I have for you is, it seems to me like being left out of all this equation sometimes are the people, right? And so how do you get leaders you use the term shiny new object, right?
Christian Napier
44:08 - 44:34
So AI is the shiniest new toy that we've seen in 30 years, since the advent of the internet and everybody's just so captivated by it. So how do you get leaders to take their gaze off of this shiny new object and focus back on the people? Because I think a lot of executives are really distracted by what they're seeing.
Graham Skidmore
44:36 - 45:00
I couldn't agree more. And so I focus on your last bullet point, which is the decision making. So when I refer to using AI to augment intelligence, when I build tools and everything, it is about helping people to make those decisions. And so I think that where leaders would really see a great ROI on their investment of time, is helping their people to think and align in their thinking.
Graham Skidmore
45:03 - 45:25
Pre-AI, your team would put together all of the research, the problem statement, their solutions, their measurements of success, their strategy, their tactics, and then they would make this presentation to their leader. Then their leader would either give them a yes, no, change this, change that. Now, that didn't occur randomly. As the leader heard information, they were asking themselves a bunch of questions.
Graham Skidmore
45:25 - 45:53
They were going through their own kind of decision and waterfall in their head. Well, AI presents the opportunity to take what's in people's heads and to operationalize it and automate these decision waterfalls. Now, you have that same process. We've got the team put stuff together, but before they get to their leader, they can now say, okay, well, we can use AI to kind of run through the decision waterfall of our leader.
Graham Skidmore
45:53 - 46:15
These are the four or five questions that we know that they're always going to ask. And so here it goes through and making sure that they're answered. And so now when they meet with the leader, instead of it being the 1.0 meeting, it can be the 2.0 or the 3.0 meeting. But this is where I think that the investment in, hey, here's how I think, here's why I value this over this.
Graham Skidmore
46:15 - 46:26
Here's why I value in this situation, service over money. And here's why in this situation, or revenue. And then over in this situation, this is why I value revenue over service. And providing that why.
Graham Skidmore
46:26 - 46:43
Because at the end of the day, if we don't have, because frankly, if we can't come up with a logic that's programmable, well, then that's our first problem, right? And so that's also a check and balance system on the leaders is that if you can't come up with, if your logic isn't consistent enough to program, well, then how the heck can you ever expect your team to follow along as well?
Spencer Horn
46:45 - 47:14
So I want to refocus us back to the main premise of our, of our podcast today, and that is beyond burnout and how, you know, how can leaders really get the best from their team performance by implementing the purpose and outcome approach today. This is what we're talking about. It's burnout throughout the entire organization. As you mentioned in your opening story that you were losing people.
Spencer Horn
47:14 - 47:36
Not only were you losing people, you were losing yourself. We want to keep the best people. One of the things that you shared with me is this purpose and outcome form, and it seems like it's an example of what you've been talking about. Do you have some tools that leaders can use to start implementing this system?
Spencer Horn
47:37 - 47:47
Is this something that we want to share with the audience? Can you describe what it is? And it incorporates what's called the SAF, um, leading score or model.
Graham Skidmore
47:50 - 48:05
Yeah, this was, yeah. I mean, the example I gave you was specific to the mortgage industry. And so, yes, in the, in the mortgage industry there, you know, I, I have it written out the same, like you you've talked about the same nuts and bolts applied everywhere though. So.
Graham Skidmore
48:07 - 48:31
I think the place that I would say for people to start, I don't necessarily have a workbook that somebody could do, but I think it starts with even, if you were to sit down with your team and ask them, what is the measurement of success? What does it look like? And let's talk and focus on the areas where there's the disconnects that are occurring, right? Focusing on the areas where we wanna see improvement.
Spencer Horn
48:31 - 48:44
So, so hold on, let me interrupt you. This is so important, but you've got to make it possible to discuss the disconnects because those can be uncomfortable, right? And so you've got to be ready as a leader to say, I welcome the disconnects.
Graham Skidmore
48:44 - 49:12
That's really important. Look, I mean, all of the growth is going to come from the, and this is, I mean, this is one of the challenges I think holds a lot of teams back, is the inability of the uncomfortable or the uncomfortableness of having the conversations that matter, right? Is talking about what isn't working and why isn't it working and being able to, and not making it personal, right? I think that's really where the leaders are separated from the bosses.
Graham Skidmore
49:13 - 49:33
The boss will come at it without the empathy and just trying to get the job done, where the leader is going to give the benefit of the doubt to the team member. Look, I know you want to do well, so obviously, there is something that's holding us back. Let's talk about that and creating that safe space to speak. Any of your top performers, they're not going to want to be parrots in a place.
Graham Skidmore
49:33 - 49:57
They're going to want to be able to Use your brain. I think that it doesn't take long when you provide an open environment for people to problem solve, for you as a leader to start to see immediate solutions. With the purpose and outcome, by having It defined, this is what it looks like today when it's not working. This is what it looks like when it is working.
Graham Skidmore
49:57 - 50:13
Well, now there's also nowhere to hide for anybody. We've laid out what it needs to look like. And now you as a team member are either able to make it look this way or you're not. And if you're not able to make it look this way, is it because you lack the competency?
Graham Skidmore
50:13 - 50:37
Is it because you lack the knowledge, the access to the information, the support staff, or the tools? It's going to be one of those things. And going through that waterfall each and every time will always allow a quick dissection to diagnose where the deficiency is so that we can plug the hole. And then again, when we plug the hole, that allows us to separate, okay, was it the team member that was really holding us back?
Graham Skidmore
50:37 - 50:50
Or was it that the team member wasn't properly equipped to be able to do the job? But again, but now we can get to the, by following that kind of structured decision in Waterfall, we can get to those answers much more quickly.
Christian Napier
51:03 - 51:18
Spencer, I don't know we've got a comment from a live viewer, which I thought was quite interesting You can let me put it. Let me put it up Yeah, so he said this is from Vinci Lukanov in Bulgaria.
Spencer Horn
51:18 - 51:22
How you doing Vinci? All the way from Bulgaria.
Christian Napier
51:22 - 51:32
Gentlemen, this has been an amazing discussion. I'm reading it for the people who are joining us on audio. This has been an amazing discussion with countless insights. I heard an expression for the first time, and I love it.
Christian Napier
51:33 - 51:47
You can only squeeze this much water from a stone. Makes me think deeper about efforts, expectations, and efficiency. Wow. Many thanks to you, Graham, for bringing it here in this episode.
Christian Napier
51:48 - 51:53
We just have a few minutes left. And so Spencer, should we go ahead and transition into the lightning round?
Spencer Horn
51:54 - 52:08
I'm going to defer to you, Christian, just because I know how important this topic is to you. And I am totally willing to bypass the lightning round for the sake of you. If not, I'll go into the lightning round.
Christian Napier
52:09 - 52:24
Let's do the lightning round, and then maybe we can wrap up and have Graham, if you wouldn't mind just sharing a little bit more information about NGen and SAF solutions, and we'll wrap up that way. So go ahead, Spencer. Over to you.
Spencer Horn
52:24 - 52:35
Here you go, Graham. Purpose or outcome, which is harder to define? Purpose. One word that describes a high-performing team.
Spencer Horn
52:38 - 52:42
Amazing. What's the most overused buzzword in leadership today?
Graham Skidmore
52:42 - 52:55
I'm going to go with delegate.
Spencer Horn
52:55 - 53:05
Favorite leadership book besides your own book, your own work?
Graham Skidmore
53:06 - 53:06
The outliers.
Spencer Horn
53:07 - 53:11
Okay. Yeah. Makes sense. What we've been talking about.
Spencer Horn
53:11 - 53:21
Better tool, whiteboard or spreadsheet? Oh, whiteboard. Your leadership style in one word? Fluid.
Spencer Horn
53:23 - 53:25
A mistake you see leaders make again and again?
Graham Skidmore
53:25 - 53:31
Their own biases and jumping to conclusions.
Spencer Horn
53:32 - 53:34
Favorite quote about teamwork or leadership?
Graham Skidmore
53:40 - 53:44
Um, it's cheesy, but you know, teamwork does make the dream work.
Spencer Horn
53:44 - 53:54
You know, I think yes. And I think one of the things that you said is sometimes we're so busy being focused on efficiency. We're not being effective. Yeah.
Spencer Horn
53:54 - 53:57
Uh, work life balance myth or, or must.
Graham Skidmore
53:59 - 54:03
I think it's a myth. It's just because life is life. They both have to compliment each other.
Spencer Horn
54:03 - 54:08
Yeah. In one sentence, what does teamwork mean to you?
Graham Skidmore
54:11 - 54:25
To me, teamwork means that we're all aligned on why we're here together, and we're going to work and support each other in whatever is needed to accomplish this end game.
Christian Napier
54:25 - 54:33
Yeah. Christian, back to you. Well, it's been a fascinating hour here, Graham. I really appreciate you taking the time.
Christian Napier
54:34 - 54:52
Why don't you take a moment, if you don't mind, to talk a little bit about NGen, SAS solutions, and let viewers and listeners know if they have some interest in learning more about the work that you're doing there and how you could potentially help them, how best to reach out to you.
Graham Skidmore
54:54 - 55:03
Yeah, so since you mentioned Engen a few more times, I'll start there. So Engen Solutions is E-N-G-E-N solutions.com. Feel free to check us out. It's a nonprofit arm.
Graham Skidmore
55:04 - 55:48
And then we are starting in health and wellness there. And it is helping our initial audience, is the underserved audience of those that would identify as neurodivergent, HSPs or highly sensitive people, or spiritually gifted people, people who feel, hey, my wiring is not normal and benefits from a new set of systems that are geared towards their physiology and way of thinking and being. And so, if that is of interest to you, you know, in helping to prove out that the world will benefit from another set of systems, hey, whether that be being a part of it, being a provider, being a donor, hey, it's going to take a village.
Graham Skidmore
55:48 - 56:11
So, love to have anybody involved. And that leads into SaaS technology, which is kind of like the holding company for all of my technologies and processes and things. I have a technology called Janus, which is focusing on augmenting intelligence, and we're starting in health and wellness. And so, it's really focused on helping people to understand themselves as individuals.
Graham Skidmore
56:12 - 56:43
And again, it's focused on providing these decision waterfalls and helping people to ask the right questions. So, instead of telling people what to do, our focus is helping people to figure it out for themselves and fostering personal empowerment through instilling that confidence within people. and then also providing a support network of various physicians through traditional, non-traditional healing modalities and help people. And the reason why I'm focusing on health and wellness is, well, A, if hurt people, hurt people, then heal people, heal people.
Graham Skidmore
56:43 - 57:11
And if we want to demonstrate that and gain support, well, then helping to bring happier and healthier people into the world is a great demonstration. And so that's, and so that's, and so anyway, so that's, that's my initial focus and why I started with the technology that I, that I did with, with SAF and then SAF leases that to the nonprofit with NGEN or licenses it to NGEN, which then helps to create the proof of concepts.
Christian Napier
57:14 - 57:47
All right. This is fantastic. You know, working in technology, there's a higher than average percentage of technology workers who are neurodivergent, and I think this is really important work. Personally, we've been doing some things with my current employer to try to bring more neurodivergent people into our workforce through some safe channels, and it's really, really exciting.
Christian Napier
57:47 - 58:16
So I really appreciate all the work that you're doing there, Graham, and Viewers and listeners, please check out the work that you're doing. And Graham, please send us any links that you would like us to include in the show notes so that people can reach out to you. And Spencer, you've been helping organizations for decades build better, high-performing teams and leaders. If people are intrigued by what you're doing and want to learn more, how can they connect with you?
Spencer Horn
58:16 - 58:32
I love if you just reached out on LinkedIn. It's the easiest way to connect and communicate with you every day. And, Vinci, thanks for joining us on the show. And I'm so glad that maybe you got to meet Christian.
Spencer Horn
58:33 - 58:41
And maybe you can have him come to Bulgaria and talk to your project managers. Because the world needs to have more Christian Napier out there. How can people find you?
Christian Napier
58:42 - 58:48
Well, thank you for the kind words, Spencer. LinkedIn, it's easy. Just look up Christian Apio. You'll find me there.
Christian Napier
58:48 - 59:00
Happy to connect with folks there. And listeners and viewers, we're so grateful to you. Thank you for spending time on this Monday with us. Please like and subscribe to our podcast, and we'll catch you again soon.