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Join me, Jess VanderWier, a registered psychotherapist, mom of three, and founder of Nurtured First, along with my husband Scott, as we dive deep into the stories of our friends, favourite celebrities, and influential figures.
In each episode, we skip the small talk and dive into vulnerable and honest conversations about topics like cycle breaking, trauma, race, mental health, parenting, sex, religion, postpartum, healing, and loss.
We are glad you are here.
PS: The name Robot Unicorn comes from our daughter. When we asked her what we should name the podcast, she confidently came up with this name because she loves robots, and she loves unicorns, so why not? There was something about the playfulness of the name, the confidence in her voice, and the fact that it represents that you can love two things at once that just felt right.
Please start us off today, Jessica.
Good morning.
Welcome.
That's how you're gonna start this.
You know what songs in my head?
People want something interesting.
Like some interesting anecdote or a joke from you, you know?
A joke
You know what's actually a bit in my head, which I'll say and see if people remember this?
The lemonade.
Crunchy ice.
Sip it once.
That one has been in my head.
And I was that something you did as a kid or is it?
No, but I think a lot of people did do it as a kid.
Oh, okay.
Because I actually saw a a reel the other day about lemonade
Crunchy yes.
Sip it once.
Sip it twice.
I saw a real someone doing that and like there was like thousands of comments of that was my childhood song.
But our girls have been singing it and now it's just constantly in my head.
Thanks for that.
Now I'm gonna have that earworm in my head too.
Yeah, that's
That's just I feel like it's one of those things that will live in your head forever and ever.
Everyone who's listening is gonna be so annoyed.
I'm sorry.
Very upset for doing that.
Not the best opener, maybe on a Monday morning, but
Yes, you're right.
Welcome to Robot Unicorn, hosted by my parents.
Jess and Scott.
I hope you enjoyed the episode.
Let's talk about playfulness and or seriousness and how it affects
a child's listening skills.
Because over the summer we went on vacation, we were at the park, whatever.
We saw parents
doing things differently.
You know, every parent does things a little bit differently.
And we saw some parents are a little more serious and aren't that playful.
Maybe don't joke around with their kids as much.
And we saw the opposite of that.
I mean I feel like
I'm very much one that jokes with our kids and tries to be playful for the most part.
I think maybe what was eye-opening for us is we use a lot of playfulness in our home and a lot of humor.
And I actually think it's kind of like surprising whenever people spend a lot of time with us.
They're like, wow, you guys joke around a lot with your kids.
And good or bad, like sometimes the kids get annoyed with our playfulness or joking
But we're always kind of playing with our kids, kind of have a little jokey tone.
And sometimes in those really tough moments when they're whining, when they're crying, it's hard to remember to do that.
But if we do
I don't always, especially lately I feel like I've been a little on edge just because we've been transitioning back to school and we've all been tired from the summer, whatever, all the normal things.
But I think when we can remember to be playful, they work with us a lot better.
And a lot of our f like one of our friends said after spending some time with us, like
Oh Jess, like I'm inspired by being with you because I just sometimes forget to be playful with my kids.
Like that's just not something I really think about.
And I think sometimes I take our kids just too serious and everything's always serious, and then we get stuck
And I've heard that before and a lot of people have also said to me, Well, just I'm not a child therapist.
It's not easy for me to access play.
And so I just get serious with my kids.
And then we thought this would make a good topic, a good episode.
What's
Really nice for you and the kids is that I am so humorous almost all the time.
It's really a blessing for you.
So something.
No, it is honestly.
Scott is very playful with the girls.
And you actually I feel like are better than me and sometimes in those tough moments, like when they're not gonna brush their teeth or they don't want to put their shoes on
Where you'll just bring in an element of silliness or fun when sometimes my brain gets stuck on like just put on your shoes or just brush your teeth.
It's not that hard.
Just do it.
But I feel like sometimes you come in and you're just like, oh ha ha ha
Uh the shoes gonna go on my head?
Oh, I'm gonna wear the shoes.
And all of a sudden the girls are laughing and they want to work with you.
So I feel like even parenting together with you
helps to inspire me in those moments when I feel stuck and I forget about the power of playfulness.
Yeah, 'cause I would say I'm more goofy with them than maybe playful too.
But I feel like let's say me sitting down to like play make believe with them is not something I necessarily do that often.
Yeah.
I have a harder time doing that, but being goofy and making up a character or using the bluey character U-U and stealing one of the kids and putting them to bed as U-U, that's their favorite thing.
And I get asked to do it a lot, but I use intermittent reinforcement there, I think, where I don't do it all the time, but just enough that they love having u-oo.
Yeah, I mean maybe we need to start by clarifying the difference between being playful and being
Silly or goofy?
Like we're not talking about sitting down and playing for hours with your kids, right?
Like I think a lot of times there's importance in that too
Yeah, that's important too.
But I think when we're talking about not taking kids so serious all the time, we're talking about can we bring in an element of just like playfulness or lightheartedness or silliness or goofiness
And that's not necessarily the same, though it is important to actually play with your kids.
That's not necessarily the same thing, right?
It's kind of the posture that you're taking towards them of like
I'm not gonna take every single thing you say like so serious.
I'm gonna bring in maybe some playfulness.
Kids will say things that, especially when they're mad, that might not be the nicest.
And I mean our our middle daughter when she was was it a year or two ago, she at one point was really mad at I think you and called you the stinker buddhist.
And that was like a really mean thing for her to say
In her mind it was like something that was the meanest thing she could think of.
Yeah.
I mean now it's a term that we all use for each other 'cause we all love it.
Yeah.
We all just call each other the stinker buddest in our family because it was such a funny thing.
I forget.
Why she was so mad, but she was like looking at me with her little
arms like up and she's just on her hips on her arms on her hips like angry face mom you're the stinker buttest mom in the world yeah
And like it those are the moments we're talking about where your kid screams, I hate you, mama, or whatever it is, right?
And you have a choice, like I either take this so serious and oh
You can't call mommy stinker buddist or whatever, right?
I mean, I think a kid saying I hate you is probably more hurtful than stinker buddhist, because that's just a cute thing for them.
She also used to call me you're the bad you're the baddest mom.
That was her other thing.
Like if she was ever mad at me, you're the baddest mommy in the world.
And sometimes responding by lightheartedness and not taking it fully serious.
helps just move past it and also not reinforce them continuing to say it over and over and over.
Although we've definitely reinforced the stinkerbuttist term.
Well yeah now it's just a j it's like a family inside joke that we kind of call each other that just
jokingly.
Yeah.
Um playfully.
Playfully, yeah.
Uh okay, let's actually get back to the proper line of questioning that I had actually prepared for this.
And you talked about the example of getting your child to put on their shoes
Well, that was actually my first question, so nice work.
Cute.
So I wanna paint a picture you've asked your child to put on their shoes for the sixth time.
Let's say your voice is starting to get louder, and you're about to launch into a lecture on the importance of listening.
Why is it our default reaction, often to be more serious and stern, and get them to do what you want
And what does research tell us about how a child's brain actually receives that seriousness?
I feel like you're calling me out because I think I literally did this this morning.
I was like, get your shoes on.
Did you?
No response.
With the older two?
No, the youngest.
Oh, well I wasn't there for that, so.
Get your shoes on.
No response.
Get your shoes on.
No response.
Are you listening to me?
Get your shoes on.
No response.
Right.
And you just feel the anger rising up in you.
But sometimes then you have to question yourself, okay, the way I'm asking is clearly not working.
They're not listening.
And there's a reason.
Their brain is stuck on something else.
Right.
In this case, my daughter was I think she was nervous to go to preschool for the first day and she was being incredibly silly and her brain was just in a different mode.
And so I think we
we start to see this as a sign of disrespect, as a sign of they don't know how to listen, they're not compliant.
But we need to step back and
Ask ourselves, what is our child's brain doing when they're not listening to us?
And their brain is either stuck on something else, they are
not engaged in the conversation that we're having with them, right?
So we're kind of just talking at them.
Yeah.
But we don't have their ear.
They're not actually listening to us because we don't have them.
We don't have them like in our orbit, in our conversation
So what playfulness does is playfulness is a way to get your child to get into your your orbit or get into conversation with you.
and to grab hold of their attention because playfulness is the best way for them to learn.
It's the best way to communicate with them.
It's their language play.
Right?
Yep.
So if we break what we're saying, like put on your shoes, put on your shoes, put on your shoes, like clearly it's not working.
And all of a sudden we just do one big playful silly thing, like, ooh, is this a rocket ship?
And like pick up their shoe and woo and like you know
put their shoe through the air, does the rocket ship land here?
Like on your shoulder?
And then all of a sudden you have them.
You have their attention.
And once you truly have their attention, then you can work with them.
Yeah
And I think that's what we often miss in terms of when we get so stuck and just keep saying our boundary over and over.
Right
Yeah.
I think the thing that I do, let's say in this specific situation, is I literally pretend to put their shoes on.
Yeah.
Even if I'm even I'm already wearing my own shoes, I will
just put them on like the front of the shoe or I'll put it on my big toe or something like that.
I saw you doing this the other day and like I was even annoyed with you because I was like, okay
I just want to get out the door.
It always has to be such a show.
But it was like almost as soon as you started doing that.
It works.
Yeah, it was almost as soon as you started being silly with them, putting your shoe on their shoe on top of your shoe
They're like, no, daddy.
And then they just put their shoes on their feet.
I was like, what the heck?
That worked in like two seconds.
Meanwhile, I've been trying to get their shoes on for five minutes.
But I just haven't had their ear.
One thing I found doesn't work is trying to put my shoes on them because they will literally want to go outside with the show.
Yeah, no, it won't work because they're gonna want to wear they're gonna wanna wear your shoes.
Uh little tidbit of information for those listening
That did not work for me.
It might work for your kids, but they usually don't want to take off my shoes, so I stopped doing that.
Okay, the idea of being playful when you're frustrated can
feel completely counterintuitive.
How does shifting into a playful mode instead of a controlling one actually lower a child's resistance and make them more likely to cooperate?
Well, I feel like that's exactly what I was just saying, right?
Like play is their language, so then all of a sudden you're speaking their language to them if you're playing, if you're being silly, if you're being goofy.
And they're gonna wanna work with you if they see that you can speak their same language, right?
And they can truly hear what you're saying.
I think so much of the, let's say, not listening challenges that parents have is
They don't have their child, like they haven't connected with them, their child's not actually listening to them, and then they're just barking demands at their child and then being like, Why won't you listen?
Well, your child's just they're not engaged in the discussion that you're having, right?
So
It's not like you can't give them your requests, but you've you have to collect them first.
You have to get them into conversation with you.
To be honest, that's part of the reason why.
I was saying this morning that I think you have to wake up a little earlier before school because I think it's much less possible with a short time period for getting the kids ready and teeth brushed and
breakfast, whatever, everything.
For you to actually be able to connect and do these things so that they listen to you and actually end up out the door on time.
Right.
Like it's not even just the t amount of time.
It's the I feel like
It takes time for them to adjust to waking up and doing all those things to getting out the door.
Yeah, exactly.
Anyways, that was a little debate that Jess and I had earlier this morning.
Not really a debate, yeah.
Not really.
I just didn't set an alarm this morning, but I totally agree with you
Yeah.
Okay, a big fear for parents and probably a lot of the trolls on YouTube is that playful parenting is just another term for being permissive or permissive parenting.
They worry it means no rules or judge that it means no rules and no boundaries.
So how does the research and your clinical experience dispel that myth?
What is the crucial difference between being a playful parent and being a permissive one?
I can already hear it.
But they sometimes just need to listen.
We can't always be playful.
Yeah.
Right and of course, two things are true, right?
Like you have to be realistic with your expectation for your child.
So if you think
that your child's gonna listen when they're over there playing Lego and you want them to get their shoes on, but you haven't got them, like I said, connected with you first.
They're not gonna listen to you because their brain is stuck.
So we have to think about who we're working with here.
They're not many adults, right?
And even for adults, you're gonna come up to an adult first and be like, hey
Can I ask you a question or hey, we've got to head over to your mom's house because it's time to go, right?
You're gonna come over and engage first and then let them know what you're doing next.
Typically.
I mean, that's the healthy way to do it.
That'd be the healthy way.
Is that how all adults interact with each other?
I don't know.
Okay, well I guess that would be the respectful way to do it, right?
And probably what
If you want to raise a respectful child, then probably what you want to model to them is the respectful way of communicating, right?
So it's just different for children because the way to capture their attention, if they are
stuck.
So whether they're dysregulated, they're playing with something else, they're eating breakfast, their brain is busy thinking of other things, the way to get them into conversation with you is through playful.
That's their language.
That's how their brain learns to switch to something new, right?
So I don't see that as permissive or as something that you're gonna have to do forever and ever.
It's something that you're doing as your child's brain is developing and as they're little to help get them into conversation with you so that they're willing to work with you to go to the next task.
Now, where I could see this being permissive is
If you use this kind of as an excuse to never hold a boundary, to let your child keep playing forever, right?
So I think a great example is how you navigate bedtime.
Some nights our kids are like fine.
They go to bed, no problem.
I'd say most nights.
They know our boundaries around bedtime are pretty strict.
Like when we say it's time for bed at seven, like we stick to that.
We always have it's time to go up for bed.
So there's not usually too much protest.
Now on some nights there are protests because either they're tired, they had a long day, they're busy playing with something else, they don't really feel like going to bed because they're having too much fun.
Yes.
We're outside.
We're outside.
They're on their scooters or their bikes and
They don't want to go in, which is fair.
I wouldn't either.
Yeah, exactly.
And transitions are really tough for kids and for everyone.
But specifically for kids, we know that if you're trying to transition them from a fun activity to going to sleep, that's going to be tough
So when you add in playfulness and you pretend to be ooh-ooh the monkey, you're not being permissive and saying, you don't have to go to bed, we're just gonna play.
You're saying, I'm gonna help you get to bed.
I'm gonna continue to keep my boundary that it's bedtime, but I'm gonna engage you in a way that helps you get moving and kind of gets the good going so that our bedtime routine goes well
Right.
So you start off silly, you kinda join their silly energy, right?
Like, ooh, ooh, it's gonna put you to bed tonight and you kinda throw them over your shoulder and you take them upstairs and you get all silly with them.
Or sometimes I pretend they're a sack of potatoes and I throw it over my shoulders.
That's the other one you like to do.
Sack of potatoes and you throw them over your shoulder, carry them up the stairs, they're laughing, giggling.
Now all of a sudden they're willing to transition, right?
Because it's not
doing this super fun thing and now you have to do this super boring thing and go to bed.
Right?
You're helping get the good going for bedtime and and to move them along.
And then what I noticed you do is you kinda slowly
slow down your energy and move them into a more sleepy state as you kind of calm yourself down.
Yeah, for U-U I actually have my hand, if I wave it in front of my face, all of a sudden I
I can transition between the two.
Yeah.
And so usually it's a slow transition and they're all yelling, no, ooh, stay, stay.
Yeah.
But usually they understand that once he's transitioned back to me.
Then he's not coming back.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And what that does is you're still holding your boundary, they're still going to bed at the same time, but you're helping them move along instead of just
saying go to bed, go to bed, go to bed, go to bed and just leading to more dysregulation.
So I'd say that's the difference.
But if you were just gonna do ooh ooh for two hours instead of sending them to bed, then yeah, that would be permissive
Yeah, we're still holding our boundaries and values and everything and power of morals and trying to instill that in them.
So we're not straying away from the important thing
We're using bedtime a lot.
I think it's a good example.
But I think the other thing you're doing is you're making sure that they don't form this really negative relationship with the bedtime routine, right?
And I think sometimes parents, we're so firm on holding our boundaries
that we forget that now you're making bedtime not fun for your kid and they know now every single night, well they're gonna hold their boundaries, but every night's gonna suck and I don't want to do bedtime and now I start getting anxious about it
You know, so you're keeping bedtime like you're pairing it with something that's fun.
Mm-hmm.
Like they look forward to ooh-ooh, whatever you do it at bedtime.
Yeah, and it's not even every day.
It's not even every day.
But it keeps bedtime positive and I think sometimes parents are so stuck on like I have to hold boundaries, which is important.
But then kids start to associate it with something negative and that's why it's so tough
The research talks about some fascinating brain science, or what I found fascinating.
When a parent and child play together, their brains both release a cocktail of brain chemistry, is what I was reading, including oxytocin and dopamine.
Which I think one of the names for it was like the cuddle hormones.
It's like where you want to cuddle with each other because you're happy and you're loving each other.
So it's like the love
Cuddle hormones.
Can you break down for us in simple non-neuroscientist terms what is happening in our kids' brains and bodies during play that makes them more receptive and connected to us?
Well, I think it's exactly what you said
A, from what we've already been talking about, when you're speaking their language, you're joining their world, they're gonna feel more connected to you, right?
And in turn, like without bringing in the brain science, you feel more connected with your child
If you think about the difference at bedtime of a dad being like, okay, it's time for bed, it's time for bed, and the kid's crying, right?
And you're just repeating your boundary.
No, you have to go to sleep, you have to go to sleep, and you're not adding in any playfulness, you notice that anger starting to rise in yourself
Even if you know, okay, they're a toddler, it's normal that they're pushing boundaries, like you know all these things, but you still are gonna get triggered and frustrated because
it's a kid who's screaming at you and doesn't want to go to bed.
And if that's every night, you're gonna start to dread it too.
But if you can find it in yourself and
figure out what kind of play or goofiness works for you, even if it feels really weird at first.
What you'll notice is that you start to feel more connected to your kids.
two, you start enjoying bedtime more because you're being silly and maybe activating a part of yourself that you haven't activated since you were a child yourself
And all of a sudden you're looking forward to it a little bit more as well.
And your child feels that.
And then they look forward to spending time with you.
And it's more connected.
And it just goes better in general
And then on the brain science part, you were just discussing that as well.
Like it releases those happy hormones from both of you, right?
So it's this cocktail of these happy
hormones like from you as the parent, from the child, and your energy is feeding off of each other.
And you got bedtime again, it's gonna make your child
able to go to sleep better because they're feeling in better relationship with you.
They've had a release of their these happy hormones in their body.
But even during the day, if you think about the shoe example
if you're starting off the school day with yelling at your child about not getting their shoes on, it doesn't start the day on a very good note, right?
Now your cortisol levels, which is your stress,
are higher and it's just makes it harder to regulate yourself all day.
So there's just so many other benefits as well of playing with your children just an
terms of like the tone that you want to set in your home.
Yeah, and one thing I was reading is that it it allows a child to use their
still developing prefrontal cortex or the upstairs brain, the part of the brain that allows them to think more clearly versus if
you're upset with them.
They're very quickly because the that part of their brain has not developed yet or not developed fully yet.
It's far more likely that they will end up using their downstairs brain or the limbic system.
Which then puts them in the fight, flight, or freeze mode.
Mm-hmm.
Which is just I found interesting.
So because of that, these hormones
And like being playful with them, it allows them to think more clearly and therefore have less tantrums and listen to you better
Yeah, which is pretty crazy if you think about it.
Yeah.
I mean, I know we've touched on some of these things before, but it's always interesting to understand it in terms of something different, like
A child listening to you.
And even for adults too.
Like this still happens in adults.
It's just we're able to control it a little bit better.
Some more so than others.
Yes.
And I think if you think about it that way, like, oh, my child's actually able to listen to me better when I first engage them with play.
It's gonna make you feel more likely to be interested in playing with them too
Right.
The research also mentioned the concept of serve and return interactions as the engine for building a secure attachment.
So can you explain what
that looks like in practice and why these thousands of tiny playful moments are more powerful for building cooperation than any single disciplinary tactic.
Beautiful.
It always comes down to the relationship now, doesn't it?
Attachment theory is interesting.
It is.
So the serve and return is essentially the relationship of the the back and forth that you have with your child, right?
So Gottmans call this like
Bids for connection.
So a lot of times your child is seeking connection with you and they'll do so in all sorts of ways, right?
It might be like
Hey mom, you want to play?
Down to like clinging, whining, crying, hitting, whatever it is.
These are signs that your child wants to connect with you.
It's a bid for connection.
And same for us with our child, right?
Like we can also do the same thing to our child.
Now the question is, how often are these returned?
with us seeing them.
It doesn't mean we have to play with them in that exact moment or we have to like do the thing that they're telling us, but do we return it?
And I was actually thinking about this this morning because our daughter, we were trying to have a conversation about something and she was just like
I want lipstick.
Like I don't know why she had she's three.
She had lipstick, lipstick, lipstick.
Like she and she starts getting silly and talking over and over.
Where it's like, be quiet, be quiet, be quiet.
And later I was like, oh, those are all ways of her trying to get our connection, right?
And I wonder if the way she got so dysregulated would have been different if we had just kind of got on her level and been like, look, we're not doing makeup right now.
It's not time for that.
We're getting ready for school.
I see you.
Dad and I are talking.
I need you to just wait.
Right.
But we didn't do that.
We didn't return her bid.
And so she just got amped up, amped up.
Amped up until the point where she was having a meltdown.
Yeah.
And it's okay if that happens once in a while, right?
Like we've talked about that so many times.
No one's perfect.
No one returns a child's bid for connection every time.
No one always has that perfect serve in return.
But
But we do want to be mindful of that because that is how a solid relationship is built.
Yeah.
Well, and from what I understand, it starts when a baby is born.
Exactly.
Right?
They
cry as a baby and you respond or return with changing their diaper or feeding them or whatever and as they get older they start
smiling at you and you smile back and say a bunch of nice things to them and they can feel that warmth and so it starts f from when they're a baby and it continues.
kind of forever, but it's important for building attachment right from the very beginning.
Yeah, and that is exactly how attachment is built.
When a child learns to trust that when they have that bid for connection or they have that serve, that
for the most part, there will be a return and they don't have to fight to get that.
And I love that work.
Maybe a positive return too, rather than
Yeah.
Gordon Newfeld always says this, but like a child should rest for our love, not have to work for it.
And I feel like that is exactly what you're talking about there, right?
Where if a child puts that serve out, they expect that you'll return it most of the time.
Yeah, and that's more powerful for building that cooperation because they learn to trust you and know that it's maybe easier for them to understand that you have their best interest at heart.
I mean it's not gonna especially when they're little
I mean even as they get older, their brain changes or they have their own ideas and you have to learn how to work with their age in order to cooperate, but it makes them on the whole more likely to cooperate more than they would have otherwise.
Exactly.
And when you do that through play, even better, right?
Because now you're also speaking their language and they're gonna feel even more connected with you because they feel even more seen and heard by you
Not to say you have to be playful all the time, but just know that you're really going to work with those attachment instincts if you're having moments where you're playful, goofy, and silly with your kids.
Yeah.
Hey friends, so at pickup last week, our daughter asked Scott a truly kind of tricky question in front of her younger siblings.
Scott was telling me that when he heard a question like this, he used to panic, but this time he had a plan and he said
To our daughter, thank you for asking.
Let's talk tonight when we've got privacy.
And that's a line that he learned straight from our new body safety and consent course at Nurtry First.
So this new body safety and consent course is taught by me.
So
Jess, if you listen to this podcast, you know me.
I'm a child therapist and a mom of three, and I have taught body safety and consent education for years
This course takes all my years of experience teaching this education and gives you calm, age-appropriate language for body parts, consent, and boundaries.
You'll learn how to teach your kids that no means no, you'll learn how to teach them to read facial cues, you'll talk about safe and unsafe.
safe touch and you'll even teach them about their uh oh feeling.
There's guidance inside this course for the real life stuff like tickling that goes too far and even the difference between a secret and a surprise.
We made this course at Nurture First because research shows that body safety education helps kids speak
up sooner and we want that for our family, for Scott and I, but also for you.
So check the course out at nurturefirst.
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And just full disclosure here, we are the creators of this course and we're so proud of it.
Okay, let's move to something a little bit more practical.
Uh parent is in that moment, which we've had a bunch of times this summer.
Their child is refusing to leave the park, and a tantrum is brewing.
Lecturing is our instinct.
Can you walk us through the steps of how a parent can pivot from that lecture to a moment of play?
What does that actually sound and look like?
So first I just want to give I've had this a bajillion times, so I totally get it.
One thing I used to do, this is like outside of play with the park scenario or like going to a friend's house, is like I'd always wait to like the last minute to be like, okay, let's go
And by the time cause we've been having so much fun, I'm like, oh what's another ten minutes?
Like, oh yeah, go ahead, play for ten more minutes.
Like I want to be a chill parent.
But then it's always that extra ten minutes than when you say you want to go
they're already melting down and having a hard time.
So a rule I've set for myself that I don't always follow, but I try is like try to leave when everyone's still happy.
Like don't try and wait
till the last second because usually if you leave when everyone's still happy it goes better.
The other thing I would do is let my child know in advance, like hey, we've got five more minutes and then we're leaving and kind of give them that timer warning so that they can start
in their head to know that they're gonna be leaving soon.
Now how I bring play into this, so what I used to do, especially with our oldest, I would take her to the park all the time.
She'd never want to leave.
I'd be like, let's go, let's go, come on.
She's still kind of like that.
She's still she's probably still our trickiest in terms of transitions.
The other girls, I feel like, can be like, okay, we'll go.
You think
Uh I don't know.
She's getting a lot better, but I feel like she was the one who was like, I'm not yeah, even we had that when we were camping, she had her arms crossed, I'm not leaving.
Like that, right?
She still can be like that.
It's kind of cute.
Anyway, let her know that we're gonna go.
And then when it's time to go, I would try and engage her with play.
So I would say something like, hey, the stroller is gonna turn into a magical
Choo-choo train hop in the choo-choo train.
Let's go home.
Choo-choo-choo.
Like with the stroller.
Like I'd try and do something silly to kind of get her going.
For her oldest?
Yeah, when she was younger.
Oh, when she was younger.
Yeah, not now.
She's eight.
I was gonna say, is that gonna work for her now?
I feel like she would just roll her eyes at me.
She would just roll my eyes her eyes at me now.
But when she was three, I would do this all the time.
And I'd be like
Let's hop on the magical choo-choo train.
Okay, choo-choo-chooo, and then we go.
Or when it was time to go, instead of waiting for her to come to me
at the playground, like instead of yelling like, hey, come on down, let's go, I'd like go up to wherever she was on the playground, like let's do one last super fast slide together.
And like
We'd go down the slide, you know, at the same time, or I'd go down first and then she'd go down.
Then as soon as she was down, I'd pick her up and be like, Woo-hoo, airplane, woo, and like get her into the stroller.
Like sometimes I think the delay in terms of expecting that they're gonna come to you, get in the stroller all by themselves, like like Yeah
We're expecting way too much for them and then they start melting down.
I mean, even doing what you're saying you do, I mean they still have meltdowns sometimes because of it.
Right.
So it's not like it stops kids from having meltdowns, because that's not possible.
But the frequency and duration of it may, I think, decrease significantly.
Yeah.
Like I clearly remember when I started using play for the park and it helped so much.
We still had meltdowns, but it helped a lot.
Cause I remember I had a little baby at the time and I just didn't know how it was gonna get our older kid off the park.
And being playful helped a lot.
Yep.
We know
Obviously, because I just made a comment about it.
That being a playful parent does look different.
With a three-year-old versus let's say a thirteen year old.
Yes
Yeah.
Especially potentially one that's going through puberty.
They're a bit more hormonal.
They're more emotion-based at that age.
Well, actually they're probably
Both emotion based in the way they make decisions.
Yeah, actually I think sometimes kids going through puberty have similar meltdowns to like a three year old
But how can a parent adapt these principles for older kids and teens who
will definitely roll their eyes at a silly voice or a game of like freeze clean or something like that where you play music and freeze the music and everyone has to stop cleaning and then you keep doing it while they're cleaning.
Turn it back on while they're cleaning
So even our eight-year-old is getting to the point where I could foresee her.
I actually feel like she'd love the freeze clean game.
Yeah, she would she would love that.
And silly voices still kinda work for her, but I just noticed her preferences and the way she reacts to the things we do.
She's becoming an older kid.
But getting a lot more eye rumbles, a lot more.
Yeah, which is hilarious.
The one thing about humans is we all I think
have an ability to be playful and into enjoy silliness.
And so it's really about finding where that is for your child.
Like what do they find silly?
What is funny to them?
Sometimes as they get older, just the humor that you use with them is just a little bit different, but you can still use humor with them, right?
Like I feel like with my own parents, like my family, we joke around a lot, right?
And so we still use humor with each other.
And sometimes it's to diffuse the situation.
Sometimes it's a coping tool, right?
Sometimes it's
There's some self-deprecating humor and it's just all ways that we can kind of cope with life, right?
And so I think even finding ways for your older kids, like what do they find funny?
How do they play
Right.
And even if it is immature, like for example, you're talking in a funny voice with them or you're pretending to be ooh-ooh with them.
But if you almost do it like ironically, I know that you're too old for this, but I'm still gonna try and do this
Like I think that there's still a way you can work with playfulness with them as long as like they know that you're not trying to treat them as a child.
Like you're almost doing this like ironically because you used to do it with them when you were younger
That's what I do with our oldest, especially.
I sometimes pretend they're a b our baby still.
Yeah.
And try and carry she's way too big to be carried like a baby now, but
I do that with her too.
I'll be like, Oh, you're still my baby and I'll pick her up and I'll like carry her like this and she's heavy.
I'll like try bouncing her or whatever.
It's like mommy.
Is she heavy or are you maybe a little bit weak?
Well that's possible.
Yeah.
Very possible that I'm just not that strong.
But and I'm also used to carrying her three year old, right?
But I still like will pick her up and try and carry her like a baby.
Like, oh, I remember when you needed to be burped and like try and burp her.
She's like, Mom, but you know she's
She does kinda love it.
Right?
And so I think it's just about knowing your child.
It's sometimes just it's that like little tease or the like
And never cruel.
Like you're never being mean about it, right?
Even if they're rolling their eyes, but it's still a form of connecting with them.
And you just have to kind of figure out what works with them.
But I know even when I was thirteen, like my parents would still be playful, right?
My dad would be like, Oh, you want me to read you a bedtime story?
And I probably would still like that.
So maybe not
At thirteen, but maybe now you would.
Oh now, yeah.
My dad.
Dad, if you're listening, you can read me uh the dingingest dog next time I'm down there.
That's the book that they always read.
Old school
I think yeah, it's it's about finding ways, but I would not stop.
We were just talking about this last night, that kids reach that puberty age and then all of a sudden parents like
feel awkward, like, oh I'm not gonna be playful with you anymore.
I feel weird about hugging you or you know, whatever.
Like they still need those things.
It's just finding how it works for them now.
Yeah.
Okay, let's talk about something a little bit different.
Oh.
Still playful, but rough and tumble play, like wrestling and play fighting.
So when I was looking into this, it seems like
It is slightly not debated, but some people have strong opinions that you shouldn't do rough and tumble play for some reason.
Mostly because I th I think some parents think that it will
make their child more aggressive by doing that.
But I found a whole bunch of studies that actually suggested that when guided by a parent, it actually is a powerful tool for teaching self-regulation, which I have never thought of it
Through that lens.
Like I've always just enjoyed rough and tumble play with the girls and they'll jump attack me from a corner or something like that.
Or I'll do the same to them and chase them around the house.
People say girls don't like rough and tumble play.
I've heard that.
Like oh your kids probably don't do that like oh.
They do rough and so on will play.
Just not with you.
You don't love it.
No, I don't like it.
So what is your take on this and how can parents engage in this kind of play in a way that builds skills rather than encourages actual fighting?
Sometimes what I find parents will do is they'll be like, oh, it's rough and tumble play, but it's like, let's say two brothers fighting each other.
And it doesn't turn out well because
If you go back to our impulse control episode, it might start out fun, rough and tumble, or just kind of like roughing around.
And then one brother all of a sudden gets the impulse or daughter, doesn't matter, our kids do have done this too
Punch and then someone gets truly hurt, right?
Oh, and then the other one, now I have an impulse, punch back, and now all of a sudden we're brawling.
So I do think it's important to have the adult leading it, like you said
Right?
It shouldn't just be your kids rough and tumbling with each other because that's pretty much a recipe for someone to lose impulse control and for them to start fighting.
But if a parent takes the lead, like you do, you're very good at this
and allows the children to get energy out and also regulate, like you said, there I think there is a self-regulation aspect to it.
And there's also a really great aspect to it of practicing impulse control.
A rule that I think can be helpful for rough and tumble play is as soon as anyone says stop, like you have to have a safe word, right?
all hands should go up.
Like I think if that's a rule, that helps so that you have some constraints, like some boundaries around how your rough ensemble play goes.
Cause what I've mostly seen is that it starts good, there's no boundaries, and then all of a sudden it ends bad
And that's why people are like, My kids can't do it.
They could, but you you have to have a parental involvement and some badness around it.
It should usually involve a parent, not two siblings.
Because it is more it's too challenging for them to
The inhibitory control, the ability to like stop an impulse from happening happening is too challenging for them.
But what I read, actually, and there's can't remember if it was one or multiple studies that I saw, but
I saw at least one study that was done on fathers and sons doing rough and tumble play and how if the father kind of was the leader of the wrestling.
And made sure that no one was uncomfortable with with what was going on and they were actually playing, not trying to physically hurt each other.
Mm-hmm.
It actually reduced aggressive behavior in the sons that were doing this, but then the opposite happened.
As soon as the parent was not in control, there seemed to be an increase in aggressive
behaviors from that child, like even outside of just the interaction with their parent.
So I found that quite interesting.
So it it can help, you just have to make sure that
you are maintaining kind of control of what's going on and not letting it get out of hand and making sure no one's uncomfortable with with what's going on.
People are using
Soft hands, all that.
Yeah, I actually rough and tumble play is sometimes a suggestion I give in therapy for kids who have these hitting kind of behaviors.
It's just a different way of getting the energy out.
That's
constrained and safe.
Well and honestly this is one of the main reasons why I love taking our daughters to karate because again it's they will get into the ring and actually fight other kids.
But they do it in a way that they're not allowed to, especially at this age at least, they're not allowed to actually hit each other yet.
So they have to maintain control and be able to hold back just enough that they're fast and they're trying to attack
But they're not actually hitting the other kid.
And for that same reason, it kind of helps them with impulse control and just I mean it helps with a lot of things, but that's one of the things that I find so powerful about it is it teaches them how to fight, but not
necessarily just any time and any place that they want.
It's more to make sure that they're protecting themselves and others.
So the next question.
The research brings up
the idea of parent interpretation bias, that a parent's own stress and preconceived notions can make them see something like
Defiance where there's actually just distress in the child.
So how can a parent learn to differentiate between a child's genuine limit testing versus what the research calls a stress behavior or an SOS signal?
And I mean I think this can be applied in more than just defiance.
Like it can also be parents think their child is super anxious about something.
Meanwhile, I think it's the
parents who feels anxious about it and they're interpreting their child's actions as though they are also anxious, meanwhile.
And there's a bunch of research on this too that was included.
Oh, another great episode.
Yeah, like it's so fascinating because truly the way that we view something is so based on our own feelings and thoughts in that situation.
Like I think back to years
probably prior to this year, like the first couple of years of you coming on to working at Nurtry First with me and having our third baby and all that.
Like we were so stressed.
Right.
And so when you're that stressed and now your kid is having a a normal meltdown, right?
Yep.
You
are at your limit.
And so I feel like it is much more likely that you're gonna view however they're behaving as defiant or bad or like, oh my word, like they just what kind of kid is like this, you know
When in reality they're just doing what they're supposed to do as a toddler, you're just like completely at your max.
Yeah.
And I actually think so many parents are operating at this all the time.
And a lot of the parents that I see in my counseling office
That is so much of what's going on for them.
Like they are just struggling so much that they're viewing everything that their child does as bad or defiant or like, what other kid acts this way?
But honestly, most kids act that way, but the parent is struggling.
So a lot of the work we're doing is supporting the parent and helping the parent see their child through a new lens and get the support
the parent really needs.
And I see that making a difference?
It makes a big difference.
It makes a huge difference.
Like sometimes in therapy it's just about educating on actually like it's really normal for your elder to have four tantrums a day
Right.
But the parents viewing it as like, does my toddler have an issue?
Like what's going on with them?
Why are they having four tantrums a day?
It might be something like it's really normal for a toddler to have four tantrums a day.
Like at two years old, that's their job
Like they're gonna have big meltdowns around things.
Only four?
Yeah, exactly.
But like, no, this is a real situation I've had recently.
It's like four tantrums a day.
I'm like, oh.
That's actually really normal.
Like I'm not worried about four tantrums a day at all.
Let's talk about your capacity to handle those tantrums.
Yeah.
And then the parents' capacity is very low.
Okay, let's talk about how you can get some support and how we can help support you so that you feel you have the capacity to handle four tantrums.
Because it's not realistic for me to tell you that your child's gonna have any less than four tantrums a day
My theory is that especially with older kids, parents put them in way too many extracurricular activities.
So not only are they busy with work
But then they're busy with all of the other things after work is done and making sure their child gets everything that they ever wanted as a child and all that stuff and so
Oh my gosh, I'm not sure.
Well, we did that for a month this summer.
They had two nights of karate and then they had swimming lessons two nights.
And I was
Toast like I was like, how do people do this all the time?
I'm so tired.
It was just probably six weeks of like four nights a week.
We had something after work, an extracurricular for them
Kids were exhausted, we were exhausted, everyone was like grumpier, melting down more.
Well, and they were going to bed later too, because I mean it was the summer, but also the
Swimming lessons were a little bit later than their typical bedtime.
So And I was annoyed with myself.
I'm like, this is directly out of line with my values.
Like how are we doing this?
But sometimes that's just what happens.
There's busier seasons, right?
But I totally agree with you.
I think sometimes we are burning ourselves out at all ends.
And a lot of the times when I'm working with parents and they say they can't be playful, they say their kids are having meltdowns, galore.
It's like, what can we take off your plate?
Maybe they don't need to be in gymnastics and dance and
Piano and you're on this and this committee, right?
Like it's too much.
It makes sense that it's hard.
And you can't be playful.
You're burnt out
Yep.
Sometimes parents need rest too, and that definitely makes it easier to be playful too.
If you don't have decision fatigue where you're making decisions constantly, you're not going from this place to that place as well.
That's why at the end of the summer I tried to create a bit of a structure to like our meals and even the lunches for school.
And my plan is to do the same thing for after school lunches.
That way we just we know what the grocery list is already
And for like after school snacks and lunches, it can be the same thing every week, one different thing every day.
But it just makes it so that we don't have to think so hard about that and then reduces our like a little system so that
Things are easier.
Yeah, I think that's so much.
And the other thing I will say about playfulness too is like I often don't feel like being playful.
Like I don't have an urge of like, ooh, I want to be so playful.
I have to force myself into it.
And then once I start being playful and that
the playfulness kind of starts coming out of me, it gets easier to do it.
And I find sometimes then I'm like, wait, I'm actually having fun with this.
But I often have to force myself to get started
And so I think don't wait for the feeling of like, ooh, I want to be playful.
You kind of have to just make a decision that you're gonna try and be goofy right now.
And then it might help with those chemicals or the hormones that are released too, right?
Yeah.
Okay.
For the parent.
listening, which I'm sure is quite a few, who thinks this is all great, but I'm just not a playful person.
It feels awkward and unnatural to me.
What's your advice?
You kind of said
You have to try and do it and then it will become easier over time.
But what's one small manageable first step they can take today even to start flexing that playfulness muscle?
I wonder instead of giving like one small first step, because I think this the first step would be just making a decision that the next time you're feeling stuck.
with your child and you feel like you're just gonna bark another command at them or whatever, you try and switch that and try and say something playful instead.
But I think the issue that parents often have
is they don't even know where to begin.
They can't think of a playful idea.
So I wonder if we could just like do like a couple of- Well we gave a few, right?
Like let's say getting the shoes on in the morning.
Yeah.
Pretend to put their shoes on your big toes or something like that if they're small or Yeah
on your hands.
Well, maybe not on your hands if you are grossed out by that.
But I think let's just give people like a few things that we do on like a daily basis that are playful for the kids, just so that they
Can have some things to try.
Well, I mean, like I said, I do a lot of rough and tumble play.
I'll chase the girls through the house or outside.
And I have to take really deep
Yeah, Jess has to take a lot of deep breaths while we're doing it.
Oh man, it's hard for me.
But I know
It works and it's so important for them.
So I will like excuse myself often while that happens or be like, hey guys, go do that outside so that I don't lose my mind.
Because I've I
get very overwhelmed by that.
But I know it's important.
Continue.
I pretend to be U-U, the baboon, and I brush the kids' teeth.
as U, but sometimes I sniff it like a monkey would and pretend to use the toothbrush to clean my ear or something like that first and the girls are all are all yelling at me to stop do or ooh oooh to stop doing that.
Whatever.
I do a bunch of different things with U.
S.
U's very silly
Yeah, very silly.
We talked about the sack of potatoes.
Usually if a one of the kids doesn't want to go somewhere, I yell at them or point at them, sack of potatoes, and I pick them up and
throw them over my shoulder and I kind of like hop around a little bit so they bounce while I'm doing that.
That usually works.
I'm sure I do lots of different things.
Our oldest child I'll joke with her a little bit more
Sometimes I feel like he'll be like, oh, do you need a hug?
And he'll just like pick them up and like pretend that they're a baby and like pat their back.
Oh, does you need to have a burp?
Yeah.
Like if they're just like you're whining or whatever.
And it's important to say we have a whole episode on this weekend link, but it's never teasing them, it's never being mean, it's never like derogatory, right?
Like Is it not teasing?
Might be playful teasing, but it's never hurtful.
Yeah, yeah.
Right.
It's never hurtful
It's very important.
Okay, let me tell you some of the things I do because Scott and I have very different ways of being playful.
He's a lot more physical and like loud and chaotic and then I need to excuse myself.
I usually oh yeah, I what do we do while we're camping
The kids after dinner were uh being loud in the cottage with their friends.
So then I yelled at all of them that I was, I can't remember, some monster.
I can't remember what type of monster I was.
And then I yelled at them that I was gonna catch one of them and put them on the barbecue and eat them or something like that.
My thing with the kids if we're inside and they're getting like really rowdy and they're annoying each other is I get them outside as quick as I can.
And usually I'm chasing them out the door.
So it happens pretty quick.
Yeah, yeah.
I think that's something we miss too.
We like spend so much time like in the moment disciplining them.
It's like let's get outside.
Okay, quickly with some things that I do.
If they're saying no a million times, I'll be like, let's shake out our nose.
So I'm like, whoa, you got a lot of no's in you.
Okay, let's say no.
No, no, no, no, no, no.
Like just say no as many times as you can.
Shake them all out of your body.
And sometimes that like shaking will be a reset.
I do a lot of dance parties.
So like if we're putting away dishes or cleaning something up, we'll just like put on some music we all enjoy and dance.
I do a lot of Pam Puppets.
With the kids, that's like a classic.
If I ever feel super grumpy, then I like to release it through Grumpy Sean, which is my hand puppet.
And then Grumpy Sean will be like, Why is everyone so loud right now?
You're driving me nuts
Grumpy Sean just says what I'm thinking, but it's hilarious when it comes from a hand.
So then the girls will start hysterically laughing.
Even I have
Hysterically laughed at some of the things that your hand puppets do.
Creepy Mummy is not a hand puppet, she's just me.
It's kind of like how Scott has ooh-ooh.
I have the same thing with creepy mummy.
So if ever I'm also really annoyed with them, I'll just be like, uh-oh guys.
Creepy mommy's gonna come out and then I'll be like, creepy mommy.
Yeah.
She has the creepy mommy has the worst accent.
Yeah, I won't I will spare
You yeah, I know you probably want to hear it, but I'll spare it.
I'll spare you.
And then there's like a our youngest loves kitties, so then I have meow meow and my hand will turn into a kitty cat.
I have Greenshawn, he lives with the trees, and if you want to get a hold of Greenshawn is kind of a peacemaker, so if the kids are fighting, sometimes we'll need
Greenshawn to come and he can kinda referee the fight and and figure out what's going on for everybody.
So I have a variety of hand puppets that serve
various reasons and if ever something really chaotic is happening, they're not listening to me.
They will often listen to the hand puppet.
So that's a way that I find playfulness is really helpful.
With the toothbrush, I'll turn it into like a magic fairy wand and I'll be like, ooh, if you brush your teeth fast, the magic fairy wand will turn you into a big thing.
So don't pretend to use it to clean out your ear
No.
You do grosser things.
My things usually aren't gross.
They're just I'm pretending to be a real baboon.
No, it's hilarious.
I love I love U-U.
Anyway, so these are just some ideas.
You gotta figure out what's gonna work for you and what your playful personality is.
Like Scott's is like I said a lot more physical.
Mine is a lot more hand puppets or dance parties or giving them a big hug or carrying them around like a baby, but
Figure out what works for you and see how it actually does work to connect with your kids.
Like I feel like it is our most powerful tool that we have as parents that's
so underused makes a big difference.
Yeah.
And if you like I wish sometimes that we had like a little reality show in our house just for like a week.
Oh absolutely not.
It would be so embarrassing it would be for both of us.
Beyond embarrassing.
But I mean, we'll see what our friends say.
But we've gone on vacation now with multiple friends of ours and every time they're like
You guys are constantly joking with your kids and playing with them or like and being playful with them.
You guys are little nuts.
Maybe it's too much.
It might be too much.
I don't know.
It's a scene.
I would agree with them that you are too much, for sure.
I'm definitely too much.
I had all the kids sitting down like our three kids are friends' kids and I was doing a hand puppet show and all of them were like
Wow.
And then Creepy Mommy came out and started chasing them all.
And Creepy Mommy like melts if you say I love you.
She'll like melt.
So it's the only way to stop her from chasing them.
Also she's like a witch or something like that.
She's like a witch, yeah.
She is a witch
Oh really?
I didn't know that part of her.
I haven't read that part in her bio yet.
Yeah, I know.
Yeah, you should uh you should uh start writing about bios so that when we inevitably create our puppet show.
Yeah
Our YouTube puppet show for kids, then uh that's one of my my goals.
Our goals is to create a YouTube puppet show for kids.
Is that actually a goal?
I was just kinda I actually have it written on my goal.
Oh.
Yeah.
So it's fun.
Okay.
I think it'd be cute.
But anyway.
Alright, this was great.
This was fun for you.
You mean playful?
Yeah.
Oh, one thing I forgot to ask though, Jessica.
Oh boy, here we go.
Do you think the same rules apply for the rough and tumble that we do?
Like you and I?
Or Okay, stop.
What?
What?
Okay.
Who's in charge of those and how do you make sure that we don't hurt each other?
Where is this going?
You've heard me.
Is that not what you would call it?
Rough and tumble play?
Well folks, this is uh I apologize.
You better not cut that part out.
I can already see as were you planning this the whole time
You know what when I was doing the research on this and Paige has to edit this, my mom listens to the show.
My immediate thoughts when I saw Rough and Tumble play, for some reason, was
making some sort of joke about the the rough and tumble play that the two of us partake in, you know?
Do you know what I'm talking about?
I just I can't even think of anything witty to say.
I don't know.
I got I have nothing here
But nailed it.
Speechless.
Sorry, Mom.
And uh Kay.
Thanks for listening.
Thanks for listening
Hey friends, thank you so much for listening to today's episode.
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