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Orthodox Christian Parenting, hosted by Faithtree Resources Executive Director (and mom of four!) Michelle Moujaes, is a weekly podcast for parents and grandparents navigating the holy struggle of raising kids in the Orthodox Faith. Each episode offers honesty, encouragement, and practical wisdom from the Church—creating space to exhale, freedom from the pressure to be perfect, and openness to grow as you raise children who are deepening their knowledge and love of Christ.
Welcome to Orthodox Christian Parenting, where we bring the church's timeless wisdom into the everyday chaos of raising kids. I'm Michelle Moujaes, and I'm thrilled that you're here. Today, we're digging into one of my favorite teachings from the saints and the fathers and mothers of the church. It's called the middle way. While the modern world often pulls parents towards extremes, the church offers us something far steadier, a faithful path of discernment, of balance, and trust.
Michelle Moujaes:This is the path that shapes us into Christ likeness. It's how we as parents stay rooted in faith. Now as always, don't forget to download your free digital discussion guide so that you can go deeper into the conversation with your spouse, your friends, or your community at church. I'm really looking forward to this conversation. So let's go.
Michelle Moujaes:So today we're talking about the middle way, the Orthodox path of discernment that helps us avoid extremes and stay rooted in love. I'm so glad to welcome back two of my favorite people, Paul and Cindy Karos from Minneapolis, Minnesota. Paul and Cindy are parents of three adult children. They are active leaders in Orthodox ministry and especially Orthodox family ministry, and they've spent much of the last two decades living and teaching this steady and faith filled way of parenting. Paul and Cindy, welcome back, my friends.
Paul Karos:Oh, it's great to be here, Michelle. Good to see you again.
Michelle Moujaes:We're talking about the middle way today, and I will you take just a minute to describe to our listeners what does that actually mean? What is the middle way that we hear about so often in the church?
Cindy Karos:Absolutely. The middle way is such a great parenting tool. It's exciting to talk about. And I think probably the best way to understand it is to remember what our goal is parents and actually a goal of ourselves as people, and that is to become Christlike, to have union with God, to have salvation. So if we understand with that that that is our goal as parents, it helps us understand the middle way a little bit better.
Cindy Karos:It is a tool that so many of our church fathers teach about. People like Saint Gregory, Polymus, Saint Peter of Damascus, both of them have beautiful writings as well as so many others. But what the middle way is, it's a tool. It's a tool to help us understand virtue and actually stay on the path, of being Christlike. And maybe the best way to understand it is to actually look at an example of a virtue.
Cindy Karos:So if you were to select the virtue of maybe, humility. Right?
Michelle Moujaes:Right.
Paul Karos:The chief of the chief of virtue.
Cindy Karos:Yeah. The one that I probably struggle with the most.
Michelle Moujaes:The one that
Cindy Karos:I have
Michelle Moujaes:none of? Okay.
Cindy Karos:Okay. Yeah. Alright. So if the virtue is humility, then there obviously if that's the middle, there's obviously two extremes. One extreme would be pride, and the other extreme would be dejection or despair.
Cindy Karos:So let's go back to the middle way. So if the virtue of humility means, Lord, I can't do anything without you. You are where I get my strength. If I'm a humble person, I should be able to see the virtues in other people and be happy for them rather than being jealous. I don't always have to be the best.
Cindy Karos:Alright? So that would be an example of humility. So if we were to look at pride, pride is I can do everything by myself. I don't need anyone. I don't need God.
Cindy Karos:I'm in control. In fact, I have to control everything.
Paul Karos:Yeah. I have to be in control because I know best.
Cindy Karos:I know best. I'm the best. Alright? And then if you swing to the other side, dejection or despair. Like, I have no hope.
Cindy Karos:I am so worthless. I'm worthless to the core. I don't even see kind of the beauty of God in me anymore.
Paul Karos:And that and that, you know, that can be a real trap for humility. That is a distorted view of humility. That is not humility. Right? So that's the other extreme, is that we we're so dejected that we we don't we can't even get back up to go to the path.
Michelle Moujaes:So we're saying the middle way is a tool. It's a way of kind of, pursuing balance in our quest to be Christ like. And so are you now saying that we apply virtues to the middle way? That's what we look at. It's a way of integrating the virtues, or could the middle way be about anything, like staying in the middle of the path with sports or with how much alcohol we drink or whatever it is?
Michelle Moujaes:Like Beautiful. What what is what is the tool applied to? Is there?
Cindy Karos:It definitely can be applied to those things. Unfortunately, Saint Peter of Damascus wasn't talking about extracurricular activities. So Yeah. We don't have any of his writings on that. But the fathers actually start with virtues.
Cindy Karos:Alright? So Okay. I think the virtue and if we're trying to be Christlike, then we're trying to obtain his virtues. Got it. You know, being patient, being kind.
Cindy Karos:So using this as a tool for virtues, it can also be used for everyday things as well.
Paul Karos:Yeah. We we and, you know, that analogy, just that question you just asked, Michelle, is is right on because, you know, family life is the arena to work out our salvation. It's where, you know, we we struggle for those virtues our whole life of humility, for example, or of patience, like Cindy said, or joy or peace, courage, these things. And it happens in everyday life within the arena of family or the pursuits like extracurricular activities that you're pointing to. Absolutely.
Paul Karos:We can say, well, what is the middle way on some of these elements of our family life? We that definitely could be done, and we could get into that if you'd like to do that.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. So I'm gonna just say back one more time. I always tell you I'm not the sharpest tack in the box, but basically, we have we have the goal as parents is to lead our kids to the kingdom, to help them become like Christ. Theosis. That's our goal.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay? Mhmm. So we've already established with you in in past episodes. And if you haven't watched them, I suggest you look in the show notes and go back and watch those episodes we did with Paul and Cindy on the summit and the path. But we know that journeying to become like Christ is a a path.
Michelle Moujaes:And so the middle way is keeping us in the path and using the virtues of Christ. Those things that we are pursuing in our Christ likeness, walking to become like him, but not going to such extremes that
Paul Karos:Yeah.
Michelle Moujaes:We on one side become, like, overzealous, or on the other side become totally apathetic, right, or dejected, as he said. Exactly.
Paul Karos:Excellent.
Michelle Moujaes:We, as parents, tend to live in the extremes, at least in this day and age. We have a lot of overzealousness or just total apathy that affects us in almost every decision. So help us understand how we could actually walk the middle way. Like, what does that look like? Where do we start?
Paul Karos:Yeah. Well, a few things. You know? For one thing, the middle way is not compromising on the teachings of Christ and the church. That's not the middle way.
Paul Karos:The middle way is the teachings of Christ and the church. Okay?
Michelle Moujaes:I love that.
Paul Karos:Yes, right? Because we can think, well, middle way, we've got to give in to the teachings. We can't always follow the teachings of the church because in our culture, that's maybe not viewed as the middle way. So we're not talking about that. We're not compromising the teachings of Christ and the Church.
Paul Karos:But let's just pick one that you mentioned like sports, or we could throw in all extracurricular activities because it could be dance, it could be music, it could be a lot of different things. And it is true that we will go to an extreme if we just follow the world. And so we do have to say, well, what is good, beautiful, and lovely about extracurricular activities?
Cindy Karos:Right? And, you know, as Orthodox, that is what we do. We look for what is beautiful, what is good, what is lovely. So if you look at extracurricular activities, there are so many good things about them. You know?
Cindy Karos:Teamwork, being able to learn how to obey a coach, striving for excellence, being the best you can be, you know, having relationships with other children and and, you know, trying to be patient and kind and and those types of things. So there's a lot
Paul Karos:And, by the way, learning how to compete. Oh, yeah. You know, competing is a good thing in the Orthodox spiritual life. Right? We compete against sin and evil.
Paul Karos:We compete to say no. That's that's winning. Right? So competition, even learning how to compete, is actually a very good spiritual thing. Okay?
Paul Karos:Being able to lose and win. Okay? Saint Paul loves these athletic things. Right? Work out for salvation.
Paul Karos:I finished the race. I fought the good fight, some of these types of things. See? So there's good beauty in these extracurricular activities, but there's also things that aren't.
Cindy Karos:Yeah. For sure. Because, as many of us do, we sometimes make success in an extracurricular the summit. Right? So we cannot we cannot lose.
Cindy Karos:Our child needs to be on the a team. If he's not on the a team, oh my gosh. Or I have to invest, invest, invest on every possible coach to make sure my child is the best. You know? My child has to be the best.
Cindy Karos:He's gotta be better than everyone else.
Paul Karos:And and what's the summit of that? The false summit is, you know, if we do these things and our kid's successful there, well, then they're gonna have they're gonna be confident kids. They're gonna be successful in the world. They're gonna be have the best popular friendship group. They're gonna be reputable.
Paul Karos:And, of course, this is this is a false summit. Instead, we say, hey. It is important our kids are in these activities to learn virtue, to learn how to treat others, to learn how to work hard, to learn, like Cindy said, teamwork. These are the beautiful, lovely things that they do learn in things like music or dance or or soccer or basketball or baseball or whatever it might be. So I think that's that's a very important point that we're looking for the good in all these activities of family life.
Cindy Karos:Well and I think the real true test, Michelle, is whatever it is that you're doing, have you ignored the life of the church? Because either one of the extremes on extracurricular activities is it's more important to my child to have this, goal of winning than actually developing the virtues of the of the faith, of of of understanding prayer, of going to liturgical surge services, to meeting friends at church. I mean, if you're doing one thing so much and you're ignoring all of that, then you aren't on the middle way because the middle way is living the life of the church.
Michelle Moujaes:I find this little thing happening inside me. So
Paul Karos:Mhmm.
Michelle Moujaes:At the time of this recording, I have a 21 year old, a 20 year old, a 16 year old, and a 13 year old. And I feel like the need to support them or have, you know, the activities feels like a responsibility as a parent. Mhmm. Their resume, helping them get the right college, helping them do all those things. And so part of me, there's a little rub, guys, I'm gonna be honest, where I wanna say, okay.
Michelle Moujaes:That sounds so great. And we're certainly gonna engage in the life of the church. But if we don't do these other things, are they gonna be okay? Does that make sense?
Cindy Karos:Yes. I think I think what's important about that is the church isn't saying you can't support your child, that you shouldn't invest in a coach or a flute teacher or whatever those things might be. The point is if you're doing it to such an extreme where the life of the church is being ignored, that's when you're not on the path. Helping your child be the best they can be is a parent it's a goal of a parent.
Paul Karos:Like the virtue of excellence. So, you know, I think that point is is a really good one that you raise. It's it's having the time as a couple to sit down and say, okay. You know, we are is our goal to help our child with their inner life to grow and choose the path of holiness. They leave our home, love the Lord, and they they have experienced forgiveness.
Paul Karos:They've experienced what it's like to forgive a friend. They've forgiven they they've seen what confession feels like. They've prepared for communion. Because here's the deal. You know, I was president of a very large company, and I will tell you our best teammates were those people that had great character.
Paul Karos:And so if you're if if as parents, we're focused on developing our kids' godly character, they're gonna be just fine because they're gonna know what it's like to work hard. They're gonna know what it's like to obey their boss. They're they're gonna know what it's like to be a good team player to do their job with excellence. This is what's gonna happen if we're focused on those things. But the world will tell us that these false summits, you you will be more confident or happy or content or you'll have made it if you make the a team or if you become in the top choir.
Paul Karos:Well, you know what? That may happen. You know what? If you're doing good virtue, that absolutely could happen, but it's not the goal.
Michelle Moujaes:That's right. And, like, if you make a ton of money or you become an Olympian, great. Use those things for the glory of God, but they're not the endgame. I love it.
Paul Karos:Yeah.
Michelle Moujaes:I love it. Okay. So then let me ask you. Let's get a little practical on how this actually helps us shape our children or discipline them or lead them. Like, what does that look like?
Michelle Moujaes:Tell me what I'm gonna get up and say to my kid tomorrow.
Paul Karos:Cindy, do wanna try that? Go for it. Okay. I'll go. You know what?
Paul Karos:Really? So that's that's a great on the practical side. There's a number of ways to look at that. But the first thing is is that we become aware that aware that there is a middle way on all of these activities of life, whether it's extracurriculars or school education, there is a middle way. Or on the use of technology or how to develop friendships.
Paul Karos:Lord, what is the middle way in this area of life? We can't just look to the world. Sometimes the world will agree with us, but many times what the world will say is the better summit or the better path on some of these areas of family life really are not the middle way. And they're gonna they're gonna get us to be so busy or so anxious about these other summits that we really are not gonna be pursuing the middle way. And we will not prioritize church.
Paul Karos:And we will not prioritize making friendships with our kids at church or having some prayer or scripture reading or lives of the saints in our home. Okay? So when we just buy into these other ways. So first thing would be whatever activities we have going in our life is just to sit down and talk about what is the middle way of school or of developing friendships. Some of these things, really powerful.
Paul Karos:And then we're gonna find we're off because we all get off the path. All of us do.
Cindy Karos:Hundreds of times a day sometimes. That's me. It's a slow it's just like how you're raising your children. It takes time. So does, you know, developing some of these these gifts.
Cindy Karos:It just takes time.
Michelle Moujaes:Well and it also occurs to me that you've gotta be pretty intentional about really wanting to pursue the path in the middle way. It's not something that will happen by chance because I know like, if I just look in our household, Walid and I are often a little surprised that something crept in. Now we're like, how did that end up here? Why are we using you know, why are we watching this show now? Like, this is not the kind of show we want our kids to watch, or why do we and it seems like without keeping top of mind, the understanding that you really do want to stay in the middle way, Things that just naturally occur in the world just kinda naturally occur into your household or into your parenting style.
Michelle Moujaes:And so how how do you how do you
Paul Karos:Well, you you just said one there. You just said one there. I was that that so what's the middle way on entertainment? Okay. One extreme will be we will not do any entertainment in this home.
Paul Karos:That's one extreme. Okay? Yep. There'll be none. Zero.
Cindy Karos:Other extreme And entertainment is evil Yeah. By that way.
Paul Karos:Yeah. Okay. Okay. Entertainment's evil. The other extreme is doesn't really matter what our kids watch.
Paul Karos:Okay? Well, that's that's not the middle way either because they're gonna get they're gonna get harmed. We're gonna get harmed if we just watch everything. Right? So this idea of stepping back and saying, is the good, noble, and lovely in this part of family life?
Paul Karos:And that's how we look at at the world as Orthodox. Christ came to sanctify the whole world so we can look for the good in our entertainment or in our friendships or in our extracurricular activities. And beginning that that that movement and by the way, when we realize we're off the path, like you said, something just creeped in. Sometimes we're just so overbusy because we've overcommitted as a family. Well, it may take a year to get back to the middle way because we're committed to some things that we don't just back out of, but that's okay.
Paul Karos:We now realize we're overbooked. Okay? We've taken on too many activities, and it's impeding our life of the church. So let's come back to the middle way, and we'll do it, you know, as quickly as we can. We're not gonna panic because this is you know, we all make we all get off the path.
Paul Karos:I mean, this is a normal thing.
Michelle Moujaes:One of the things that you caused me to think about is kind of the role discernment plays in that process. So I like the fact that there's a slow kind of recalibration. If we're way off the path, we may not be able to get on the path by tomorrow, but we finish out this soccer season and then maybe we take a pause before we add another thing to our plate. So I love that. But the question that arises is, how do we be discerning, especially when a lot of decisions seem to be in the moment?
Michelle Moujaes:So I'll give you an example. Sports are good. You know? Let's just say watching the Super Bowl. That's a really good thing.
Michelle Moujaes:How do you know when all of a sudden you're watching half clad women on the halftime show that that's probably not on the path? Like, does that mean we can never watch the Super Bowl? Do we have to ask permission from our priest? Do we have to have a meeting about it? Like, how do you move in real time to live in those kind of feisty, not so clear
Cindy Karos:The messiness stuff.
Paul Karos:Yeah. That's the
Michelle Moujaes:messiness of messy. That's a good word, Paul.
Paul Karos:Mhmm. Messy being in the world, but not of the world.
Cindy Karos:If you looked at our lives, you would tell we would say that, you know, you once you have a baby, you don't have perfect discernment. In fact Oh. Perfect discernment probably comes from all the mistakes you've made. That's probably true. All the things you wished you hadn't done.
Paul Karos:Yeah.
Cindy Karos:That's right. Discernment is one of those things that you grow as a virtue as a parent, I think. So first of all, we shouldn't beat ourselves up. If by accident, our kids watched the Super Bowl halftime show and we saw things we didn't want them to see, we just have to talk to them about it. And then we need to be a little bit more careful the next time perhaps.
Paul Karos:Yeah. And say, you know, ask them, what, you know, what do you do you think that was on the middle way? Do think that was on the path?
Cindy Karos:So How that happen? Christ like? Yeah.
Paul Karos:So, you know, we we we will we'll panic, and we just say, hey, jeez. I didn't realize this was gonna be so seductive. What did you guys think of that? And then, you know, maybe next time we just don't watch the halftime show or just do when it gets like that, we just turn it off. Because we we wanna teach closing gates of our senses to our children for sure, but they're gonna be exposed sometimes, and we don't have to panic.
Paul Karos:But helping them process it I love that. Good.
Michelle Moujaes:I love the word don't panic. I think a lot of times we as I mean, this is one thing that you both have said to me a million times. You're probably doing better than you think. And it's language that we actually really like here at Faith Tree, which is hang in there. Don't panic.
Michelle Moujaes:Take a deep breath. Like, perfection's not the goal. Christ likeness is the goal. And so I I love that. Don't panic.
Cindy Karos:You know, it's amazing how wise you become by the time your children are out of the house. Then you wanna do it over. That's why god gives us grandkids.
Paul Karos:Right? That's right. Yeah. That's right. Yeah.
Paul Karos:I was just gonna say, think this idea of using that middle way of looking for the good, noble, and lovely, the beautiful, in all these different family activities, when we start to do that, we start to let go of the extreme pursuits that you know, you'll know. You'll have symptoms. If we're off the path, we're either ignoring the church or we're gaining a lot of anger or a lot of anxiety about our kids making certain things or winning or, you know, not losing, making you know, all these anxieties that come up, they're not natural. And and and when we pursue the middle way, there becomes a little bit of peace because we're actually doing it the way God hopes us to do it, and that's where the peace starts to come. And and then we lose the peace.
Cindy Karos:And then we get it back.
Paul Karos:Then we lose it.
Cindy Karos:Yeah. It's
Michelle Moujaes:I actually really love that there are identifiers. Mhmm. Maybe the passions, anger, price symptoms that can tell us, oh, God did not intend us to live in that zone. That is not getting us closer to Christ likeness. So let's take a pause.
Michelle Moujaes:And, again, I think you'd have to be pretty intentional to consistently check-in and be aware of where are we on the path? Where are we off the path? I'm noticing this in us. Right?
Paul Karos:Yeah. And we don't have to be to have the regular check ins as a couple, as a or if you're single with somebody that you trust or and with other parents. By the way, some of those symptoms that you know, we're just talking not real recently that some of those symptoms like us being short, us being aggressive, us being reactive, that may be our own life that our that it's not even about our parenting. It may be in our own lives, our pursuits are so intense right now that we that in our own as parents, what are we doing? Because, you know, we have a lot of demands too.
Paul Karos:We have our work. We have our other commitments that we commit to that may be outside of our work. And so that can be a symptom for us too to take a look at our own pursuits in life. Are they on the path or not?
Michelle Moujaes:And our pursuits for our children. I mean, I think of how many times I have to, like, check-in with myself and say, does my kid want this, or do I want this? What is that?
Cindy Karos:So much of the disappointment is our disappointment. The child is over it long before. I mean, it's a good one. Percent. Amazing.
Cindy Karos:But,
Paul Karos:you know, we have to say, like, you know, we have one kid made a few c teams, and that that kid was a c a c player in a variety in in one sport and was disappointed. But he's an adult now, and he's very competitive in the in the workplace. He's a hardworking kid. So this this lie that America this has become part of our culture because of how big sports has become in in money and NIL and all these things. You know, if my kid doesn't make an a team, he won't know how to compete or win or or, you know, work hard.
Paul Karos:No. That's not true. You can still teach the same virtues of work ethic, of practice, of training, of obeying your boss, of being a good teammate, being happy for your teammates. Whether you're an a b c team, doesn't matter.
Cindy Karos:Yeah. You know, when you think about too, it's the parents' disappointments. You know, we put so much into wanting to help our kids succeed. If you look at the big picture, after after they have been in a sport for one or two years or they are playing a musical instrument or, you know, maybe it's drama or whatever it is they're involved in, many times, they're done with the the activity Mhmm. Within a year or two, and it's not a lifelong thing even.
Cindy Karos:So think about putting so much energy into it that you, you think it's gonna be something they do for their whole life. The important part is putting the energy into the life of the church because that is what they're gonna do for the rest of their life. That's what we want them to do. Wow.
Paul Karos:That's
Cindy Karos:awesome. We want them to be prayerful, and we want them to have virtues. That's this whole idea of the middle way. And I think a great, you know, really great test to know, are we there or are we not? Ask yourself, are you living the life of the church?
Cindy Karos:I
Paul Karos:I
Cindy Karos:think it's a really great kind of get back to the middle way.
Paul Karos:Because that that's really our ultimate goal is to have our kids choose that out of their free will as they leave our home to pursue the middle way for their own lives and their future families. And and that's gonna all that I mean, I really come back to that. The world temptation is that if you accomplish these worldly things, you will be, quote, more confident. You know, you will have made it you'll you'll have a future success. As Orthodox Christians, we say, if we develop godly character and pursue Christ, all these things will be added unto you.
Paul Karos:All these things will be added unto you. You don't have to worry about those things. They'll they'll they'll be what they're gonna be, and they'll be more than enough. Yeah.
Michelle Moujaes:I think it also allows us to live our lives. Right? Maybe I wasn't called to be this major powerful CEO of a thing, but I'm on a track in the American way for all of us to be pursuing, like, business greatness. But maybe that's not what God actually called me to. Right.
Michelle Moujaes:So I feel like taking a pause to really seek ye first the kingdom of God allows whatever's supposed to be added to be added.
Paul Karos:I like that. That's good.
Michelle Moujaes:Good. Okay. Next question. How can parents recognize when they've drifted towards an extreme? Is that only those symptoms, or are there ways where we can kind of feel that kind of gut check?
Michelle Moujaes:Like, oh, should we really sign up for that travel team? Like, is there a set of metrics?
Paul Karos:So family life is lots of moving parts, and that's totally normal. And there's a lot of fun, and there's a lot of ups and downs. So just being mindful and saying, you know what? We don't just have to live our life blindly and just do. We can actually, as a couple or with friends, say, what is the middle way on these various parts of life?
Paul Karos:And the symptoms are the best way. And Cindy mentioned the one that's probably the best, and that's that idea that if you find yourself not living much of the life of the church, you're not going to church on a regular basis, You're not doing any kind of in home ascetical life like prayer or fasting or scripture reading, these types of things. You're not developing friendships at church. These are warning signs that some other pursuit is taking the priority. And then we would add these other symptoms of a lot of anxiety about whether our kid's gonna be a certain, you know, at a certain team or a certain this or that or a lot of short anger or coming down hard on our children or ourselves, a lot of impatience.
Paul Karos:These things are the symptoms that probably something in our pursuits have gotten to one of the extremes. And we don't have to panic. Okay. We have gotten here. Let's take a breather and figure out where is what are the tweaks we need to make to come back to the middle way?
Michelle Moujaes:So good. I love it. I love it. I love it. I think sometimes as a parent, I I question, are we just being lukewarm on this because we don't wanna make a decision because it's kinda hard, or is it that we don't know what to do?
Michelle Moujaes:I think that that that the pursuit of kind of the middle way allows that freedom that you said, take it back. Try again. Like, okay. You're not necessarily being lukewarm, or maybe you were being lukewarm. And now what?
Michelle Moujaes:Let's go back at it and say these are decisions that are in front of us now.
Paul Karos:Yeah. By the way, that's a great example of the two extremes, you you and Walid. One wants PhDs for everything and one, it's college. You know? So what's the middle way?
Paul Karos:And you're finding the middle way.
Cindy Karos:That's good.
Paul Karos:Experimentation. And and sometimes we have to talk to friends, the priest, if we don't know what a good middle way is. And, did you have something you wanna say, Cindy?
Cindy Karos:I think other Orthodox parents who have gone ahead of us, have raised their children already, can be such great help.
Michelle Moujaes:So good.
Cindy Karos:You know, because, you know, we don't we're doing this for the first time sometimes and our poor firstborns because we're we're practicing. We're learning. The reality is that's the way we become better. And we just have to accept the fact that we're gonna make a 100,000 mistakes by the time our child is out of the house. And hopefully, we've, you know, provided some of the good things that they need as well.
Cindy Karos:Yeah.
Michelle Moujaes:I love it. And I think you actually call to our attention a really important point, which is this. Having a community life in the church and being in relationship with people in the parish who are pursuing the same summit that we are Right. Who are going after Christ likeness, not just things that are happening in the world. It is a critical part of our faith journey and of being the body of Christ.
Michelle Moujaes:Because then, you know, I know how much Walid and I learned from you guys or from our parents and couples that have gone before us to have mentorship from people who want what you want is critical. Because if you're getting mentorship from people on sports or college, that's really useful, but it doesn't necessarily give you the whole picture of what our summit is. So I just wanted to call that out. I think it's really important that we're in those relationships.
Paul Karos:I we would agree completely. And, you know, it's really that community that helps us kinda come back to what are we really doing here. We're on the path toward Christ. And these these activities of family life, we'll just call those those those trails on the path toward Christ. They're not separate paths.
Paul Karos:If we make them a separate path, then we're going after a different summit. Okay? That says So we really, we're talking about the path of Christ, the path of of growing in virtue, the path of the life of the church, and we can pursue extracurricular activities, education, good friendships, how we handle our money. All these things can be done on the path toward Christ beautifully for what's good, noble, and beautiful. And all these other elements that the world says, hey, if you don't do this, you're gonna fail, or you're gonna be worthless, or your life is doomed because you're you'll never be, quote, successful from a worldly perspective.
Paul Karos:Just not true. So keep our eyes on cry yeah. Keep our eyes on Christ.
Michelle Moujaes:I love that. Yeah. So Okay. Let me ask you this one. I'm gonna go back to something you said a bit ago, Cindy.
Michelle Moujaes:You were talking about helping in the aesthetical life in the home and teaching our kids about fasting and about prayer and about, you know, being in community at church. How can we apply the middle way in these kind of disciplines without allowing the activities of the church per se to become kind of a checklist? Because I know one of the most important things is really having an integrated life where you are pursuing excellence and all those other things. But, again, those are trails on the path. They're not a path in and of themselves.
Michelle Moujaes:So how would you how would you suggest for parents that we keep those things integrated instead of just like, oh, this is my church to do list, or I went to church. Check. Now I'm gonna go to sports.
Cindy Karos:You know what? It is such a great question. But I think the real answer there is what does it mean to you? Are you do you have a checklist, or are you excited about what those things are in the church? There's a big difference.
Cindy Karos:If you're like, oh, guys, we gotta say a prayer. Well, where do they what are the kids gonna learn? Like, oh, you all, it's this is a perfect opportunity for us to talk to God about what that might be. And if you have some excitement about it, then they're gonna have excitement. If you have excitement about going to church, to going to youth group or to the liturgy, if you have that joy in you, your children will have that joy, it won't be a checklist.
Cindy Karos:I think the the real key is making sure that you're not looking at it as checklist. And maybe the best way to do that would be to learn a little bit more if you need to. Why do we fast? Why is it important that we have a relationship with God in prayer? I mean, I'm a perfect example.
Cindy Karos:I am constantly struggling with the best prayer life. I don't have the best prayer life. But if I didn't struggle on it, I might just decide it's not important at all. It's always gonna be a struggle, all of those things.
Paul Karos:You know, that point Cindy made, like, I'm just remembering. She was so good at, for example, fasting. And we kind of slowly built into fasting, but Cindy made it a fun thing. It wasn't like, okay, we have to fast and this kind of negative thing. It was why we fast.
Paul Karos:That's for self control, and self control is one of the virtues of Christ. And then let's make it fun. What who's in? Who wants to do this this year? So we had some flexibility as our kids grew older to help them buy into it and choose it.
Paul Karos:And, Cindy, you did that in a way that it wasn't kind of a a hammer. It was an invitation and an exciting invitation, and it's gonna be hard. We know it's not gonna be easy, but what do you wanna go for this year? And over the years, they slowly became better and better fasteners. And by the time they left the house, they were pursuing a a pretty darn solid fasting life because it was inspiring, not a hammer or a checklist like you're saying.
Paul Karos:So I
Michelle Moujaes:think that's I love it.
Cindy Karos:If we are if we're actually, you know, I'm a competitive person. So, I mean, even the things that we look at competitively, in the secular world, why not apply them to even fasting? Like, it's a goal to make it and make it through to a certain period, doing the the life of the church, the fast of the church. And, you know, we we sometimes we fall off. Sometimes we don't.
Cindy Karos:But if the kids are excited about trying to meet that goal and they're even participating, What are your favorite Lenten foods? Or let's look up some new ones. Or maybe even having the kids take as they get older, each of them take a night, and they find a fasting food in some vegan cookbook or, you know, online and try one. I'll get all the stuff you need. You know?
Cindy Karos:Make it fun.
Michelle Moujaes:It presupposes that you're putting some energy behind the ascetical life of the church, or you're putting some energy around, like, through reading scripture. I mean, I remember I used to kinda opt out where I wanted, like, a different version of the Bible just because it was easier and I could understand it. I'm confessing. Yeah.
Cindy Karos:That's right.
Michelle Moujaes:I think I've actually had a friend to me. I had a a friend say this to me. She said, you know, it's not just that reading comes easy to me, but I have to take the time and struggle through a little slower than I might like just a regular novel that I bought on Amazon, but it's worth that. And so I I like hearing that.
Paul Karos:Yeah. And, you know, it's it's really like Saint Porphyrias. He is so big on, hey. You're doing your love of God, the joy of our faith. And so we're not gonna be perfect.
Paul Karos:We may not be fasting at all in our home right now. Okay. Then just get started. Don't beat ourselves up. This is not a 100%.
Paul Karos:Like bishop Anthony says, you know, the Lord says, be perfect as your heavenly father is perfect. Yes. And yet we don't reach perfection in this life. And so so but we do we do struggle with joy, and that's I think the real key is is that as we do spiritual struggle, it's hard. But if we do it with the love of Christ and the love of the Lord, then it really does it it changes the tone in the home, and it takes it away from rigid perfectionism to difficult, joyful struggle.
Michelle Moujaes:I love that. Paul, get practical for me for just a second because you talked about, no, if you're not there yet, that's okay. And perfection, again, is not the goal. Christ likeness is. So what if we haven't been in pursuit of the middle way?
Michelle Moujaes:Or what if for years we've been extreme? I mean, I'm a really extreme girl in a lot of ways. And if I'm trying to get back to kind of some balance in that, like, where do you even start? Is it just one decision at a time? Is it one day at a time?
Michelle Moujaes:What does it look like? Like, give me some practical granular things.
Paul Karos:So I think the first thing would be that that husband and wife or if you're a single parent with somebody you trust, that you're just gonna sit down and and be open about, you know, where are your stress points in your life. And most of the time, if you've been an extreme girl, as you say Mhmm. And we we we got that we get that way too still now in our lives. But if you were an extreme girl, most likely, there will have been some stress around that extreme nature because it's not on the middleweights. It's a different path.
Paul Karos:It's a different summit. And so when we're when we are being extreme, there'll usually be some interaction with our kids that doesn't feel right. You know, we're coming down too hard and they're resisting constantly, or there's misbehavior constantly going on and we're not trying to really figure out what's happening. And so the first step is just to realize we probably are off the path somewhere. We have to be.
Cindy Karos:All, you
Paul Karos:know, struggling. So and then just take one step, don't panic. Don't don't still beat yourself up that you're not gonna be able to walk back and turn around to the middle way. We just wanna get back to the middle way, and that's what repentance is. It's just a turning around.
Paul Karos:It's coming back to the middle way because we're off in some other path, and now the middle way, we wanna come back to the middle way. And and sometimes it takes a while because we're committed to things or we're we've been doing things a certain way, and we wanna gently come back. Okay? So it's not so abrupt in our family. And so the key is just that we are constantly on the watchfulness, the neepsis, watching for when we're off the path.
Paul Karos:Neepsis?
Michelle Moujaes:Is that a Greek word?
Paul Karos:Neepsis. Yes. A Greek word. Neepsis. Sorry.
Paul Karos:And it means watchfulness, that we're being watchful for when we're on some other path. And, oh, lord, I'm on some other path now. Forgive me, lord. Let's come back. And and we really help each other.
Paul Karos:I I would say you helped me see when I was off the path, like, would have been way overbearing on a discipline issue. And later, Cindy would come to me and say, Paul, just, you know, that was that seemed really too far intense. That was that that was not the middle way. Okay? Or she wouldn't do a consequence.
Paul Karos:And, you know, and Havoc would be running around. And later, I'd say, no, Cindy. We gotta have some limits in the house. We gotta have some limits. You know?
Michelle Moujaes:I love that. I love that so much. Yes. I love it so much. Okay.
Michelle Moujaes:Because I think all of us have been there in one way or another. Now I'm gonna get, I'm gonna push back on you a little because it's the extremeness in me coming out. Are there things that are just completely I mean, I know there have to be things that are completely off the bat. For example, porn or you can't hit your mother or things like that. Where do those fall into this scenario of the middle way?
Paul Karos:Those are things what we said earlier on that the middle way does not mean that we are gonna veer from the teachings of Christ, the scriptures, the fathers, and the church. Not veering away from those. Okay? And that's really important. We're looking for the good, noble, and lovely or the development of virtue and understanding what that virtue or that middle way path is in these activities.
Cindy Karos:So we don't have to have a middle way of porn.
Paul Karos:Yeah.
Cindy Karos:Porn is just off the path. So, you know, that'd be a great example.
Michelle Moujaes:I love that. So not everything needs to be invited into Right? Especially in a world that's changing so quickly, and there's so much stuff happening that are just we don't want a part of any of it. But we also don't have to stick our head in the sand and kind of, like, remove ourselves from living in the world. So but some things just we don't even like that's just stealing is never gonna be anything that we try and find a balance on.
Paul Karos:That is a really a really important point, Michelle. That is a critical point that
Cindy Karos:Good.
Paul Karos:What's on the path and off the path doesn't change. These are the commandments of Christ. Right. Right? So
Cindy Karos:So is porn Christ like? Nope. Is stealing Christ like? Nope. I mean, so
Paul Karos:Premarital sex, is that is that now okay? Because we're gonna find the middle way of premarital sex. No. That's not. That's hurting the human person.
Paul Karos:That's not the middle way. The middle way is how do we date in a in a healthy way? How do we actually understand what how dating can actually inform us on who we're gonna marry? There's beautiful ways we can look at dating for marriage in the middle way. But having premarital sex would not be the middle way.
Paul Karos:That's that's an extreme position of the world that you're gonna be happier. You're gonna know if you're compatible. These these are false summits, and that those would be those would be off the middle way, off the path toward Christ. That that's not good, noble, and lovely.
Cindy Karos:As somebody falls off the path, they can get back on. I mean, that's
Michelle Moujaes:Okay.
Cindy Karos:That's the thing about the path is if you do make any of those mistakes, you've watched porn, you've you've you know, whatever those things might be, that doesn't necessarily mean you can never get back on the path.
Paul Karos:Yeah. Just turn around. Turn around. That's what around.
Cindy Karos:Confession is all about in the Orthodox church. Yeah.
Michelle Moujaes:I love it. Okay. So now I'm gonna get granular again. What about when it's less obvious? Like, as a parent, pretty sure porn is not good for my kid.
Michelle Moujaes:As a parent, I know that we would not be called to have intimate sexual relations with people outside the bonds of marriage. I'm clear on that. But what about things like YouTube videos? Or how do we make those decisions with, like, things like video games or things like, I don't know, going to parties at school. Like, do we have to sit and go, will there be drinking?
Michelle Moujaes:Will there be like, how do you equip a kid to be in the world and live a life, but at the same time, there's so many of those kind of wishy washy scenarios?
Paul Karos:Yeah. So there's probably some age appropriate things there. I mean, when they're very young, we are in charge of the gates to their senses. That the we gotta make sure those gates are closed so that harmful things are not attacking the souls of our children. I I think you're yeah.
Paul Karos:Okay.
Michelle Moujaes:Say that Say it again. I love it. Yeah.
Paul Karos:So when our children are young, you are in charge of their gaits. You have to be in charge. We have to make sure that the gaits to their senses, what they're seeing, what they're smelling, what they're touching, what they're hearing, those gates are closed to the harmful things. And then open them to the beautiful things. Okay.
Paul Karos:And that's really your job as parents when the kids are younger. Now, as they grow older, especially as they get into late middle school, high school, now we're teaching them how to be in charge of their own gaits. Okay? What is good for their soul? What's harmful to their soul?
Paul Karos:How to say no and churning something off? How to recognize what's good, noble, and lovely, and what's really harmful? Okay? And so by the time they leave your home, they've experimented. They know how to close the gates and walk away from something or shut something off.
Paul Karos:And so this is a battle. And I think your technology tsunami that you wrote at Faith Tree is spectacular. It gives greatness. That is
Cindy Karos:so helpful. So helpful. Such a great guide for parents.
Michelle Moujaes:Thank you. Well, we we learned, with technology the hard way because we were a no cell phone family. My kids finished high school with no cell phones. And then when they went to college, they had to have phones to find roommates. And so we did, like, a hustle to really make sure that we practiced those things together in the home before they actually launched off to college, and they do make mistakes.
Michelle Moujaes:Again, it's they're in the world. Yeah. They're in the world. They're not gonna be able to avoid any technology and live in America in, you know, the February or else
Paul Karos:Yeah.
Michelle Moujaes:It's almost it's virtually impossible to deny all the things of the world. So I think
Paul Karos:Yeah. You know, like, the AI thing right now? That's, you know, that's a new one that you
Michelle Moujaes:know, we
Paul Karos:don't know the we don't know the middle way yet. We're we're we're thinking about it, but, you know, of course, there's gonna be good noble usage for AI for sure.
Michelle Moujaes:For AI?
Paul Karos:For me as a blind person, the AI related things has really helped with voice technology to be able to read theological books. Some of this type of thing has actually been really, really a beautiful thing. So there is good noble and lovely things, and then there will be things that will be definitely extreme. And and so we don't know that yet. But we're all, as as Orthodox Christians, gonna have to, you know, really struggle with what is the middle way on, for example, artificial intelligence.
Michelle Moujaes:That takes so much fear out of that scenario, by the way. I love that. Like, AI, for so many of us or at least for me, has been like, oh, scary. What's happening? They're coming.
Michelle Moujaes:The robots. It's happening. But when you talk about it like that, it does make, a bit of exhale, which is, okay. Well, let's see what is redeeming. You know?
Michelle Moujaes:And then let's see what we really don't want any part of. I like that. It's good. Beautiful. So tell us a little bit about how we can pursue the middle way in our parenting styles.
Michelle Moujaes:Right? So we have gentle parenting on one hand. We have really extreme control on the other. How might we find the middle way as parents?
Paul Karos:You know, like when our kids are emotionally going high or are, you know, misbehaving or, you know, kind of there's a lot of intensity in the interaction with our kids, misbehaviors, whatever. You know, the the the world is is having a lot of things to say on parenting styles. Mhmm. And, you know, we wanna take the middle way on those styles. Do wanna talk about that at all, Cindy?
Cindy Karos:I think it's really about being able to connect with your child. If you if you, sometimes the extreme, like a really heavy hand and, you know, you're gonna you're gonna control and watch everything that your child does. You know, it's interesting. We've worked with a lot of adults, and you can see how that kind of a parenting style can absolutely turn your child into having no ability to make decisions on their own. Or they're they're they have low self esteem, which is really an interesting byproduct of that heavy hand.
Cindy Karos:On the other hand, the the idea of just being completely permissive and allowing your child to make their own choices, and that's not a good thing either.
Paul Karos:And no there's no no. There's no consequences, no limits. That's not healthy either.
Cindy Karos:That is gonna make them really hard to be a team player ever. I I'd hate to be have one of my children married to that child who thinks they're gonna get everything they ever want. And Right. There is never a no or there's never whatever. So there are kind of downsides.
Cindy Karos:So we wanna be in the middle of that. I mean, clearly, we have to be protective of our children. And, clearly, we wanna teach them to have make their own decisions, but we need to do it in such a way that we're we're connecting with them, understanding them, treating them like human beings and individuals, and, just kind of watching what we're doing.
Paul Karos:And so maybe, you know yeah. So maybe we can say another add on to what Cindy just said would be, so what's the middle way on these parenting styles? Well, it would be that we're connected with our children, that we look at them as made in the image of god with dignity as a human being, for sure, and that we gotta have some discipline, rules, disappointments are okay. Say no is healthy. Okay?
Paul Karos:Limits are important because both are important. So if the middle way is that we we are gonna we're gonna have yes and yes instead of leaning one way or the other that we're so authoritarian, so helicopter, so rigid that our kids are walking on eggshells. That's gonna have consequences to their development. Okay? Or we're laissez faire, permissive.
Paul Karos:There is no no's. There is no disappointments. We just want them to be, quote, happy, and that's gonna hurt them too. Mhmm. Okay?
Paul Karos:So we want the middle way. Yeah. The middle way.
Michelle Moujaes:So a question from our audience. Jennifer in Los Angeles is the mother of two college age students, and she asks, I hear a lot about avoiding extremes. But in real life, it often feels like I'm choosing between being too strict or too lenient. How do I recognize the middle way when I'm actually in the moment?
Paul Karos:Wow. Well, you know, this is college students. So, of course, there's sort of age appropriateness things. So it's it's very different when your child is eight or 10, this this question, than now. Right?
Paul Karos:Because then we we we really when they're young, we're talking about that balance between being connected and yet having limits, consequences, and discipline. Here, you know, once they're in college, they are individuals. They're living on their own, and our relationship begins to shift. And there is there is complications because many times the parents are paying for their college, so there's a little financial thing going on there. But but we are shifting to coming alongside them, respecting their independence.
Paul Karos:By this point, hopefully, know that there's a path toward Christ. So it's not as much strict versus, you know, not strict. It's really how do we give them honest feedback, guidance, direction while preserving their human person as they're now because now they are living on their own independently.
Michelle Moujaes:I love it.
Paul Karos:So there yeah. There is a balancing act there. Don't
Cindy Karos:know if they do come home. And when they are home, there are rules in the house. And that's always a tricky thing when when children come home from college because they feel like they know everything, and we still have some rules of the home. So it's important to have those rules too.
Paul Karos:And then make sure we've communicated them. You know?
Michelle Moujaes:Yes. I think that's what I was gonna say too, Paul.
Paul Karos:How have you handled yeah. How have you handled how have you handled that? Well because you have
Michelle Moujaes:For those people who have college aged kids in our audience, I think it's a really first of all, it's a work in progress. Progress. Mhmm. Second of all, I think being really high on communication is key. I had a cousin who told me once her son came home and gave her a little wake up moment because he came home from college and he said, mom, I just did a whole year abroad.
Michelle Moujaes:I studied. I lived on my own. I had a job and an internship. I don't need you to tell me when I can take Tylenol. And she was like, oh, okay.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay. Yeah. Good. So it was it was a constant recalibrating to know what parts to hand off. And I think parents should be forgiven be forgiving of themselves because it's not gonna go flawlessly.
Michelle Moujaes:Sometimes conversations as you're making that shift into handing them the reins of their life are a little bumpy and a little bit, messy.
Paul Karos:You know? Beautiful.
Cindy Karos:Well and we shouldn't ignore the fact that some of our adult children move home, and there may be a period in their life where they are living here to save some money or for whatever reasons, which is always a great thing. But it's that's the time where we have a different kind of conversation. We share our expectations. We ask them what their expectations are so we're real clear. You know?
Cindy Karos:Hey. I have no worries, but I would like to make sure that area around where your bedroom is stays picked up because we have friends that come over. That's right. You know? Those types of things.
Cindy Karos:You know? So having Yeah. Some
Paul Karos:I remember when our kids came home because I do a lot of coaching down in our basement. And, you know, the kids would, like, leave stuff off. So we finally say, no, kids. You know? Dad brings people down to coach.
Paul Karos:This this area has gotta be picked up.
Cindy Karos:Yeah. That's all we care.
Paul Karos:That's all we care room. You can leave it on there. That's right.
Michelle Moujaes:I love that. I love that. And and I think negotiating those details and specifics with your children is a really beautiful way to grow into the next phase. Right? Yeah.
Michelle Moujaes:I love it. Okay. That's good. This question comes from Sam in Arkansas. Oh.
Michelle Moujaes:And it says the middle way sounds peaceful, but parenting feels urgent, especially when I'm afraid I'm getting it wrong. How can my wife and I practice discernment without becoming passive or indecisive?
Paul Karos:Coming back to what Saint Porphyrias talks about the joy of Christ. You know, make sure we've got joy in the home. And when we find ourselves being too intense or too crazy, chances are we may have gotten overcommitted. That's the first place to start. Have we gotten overcommitted?
Paul Karos:Is there are we still prioritizing the life in the church? Start there because many times, that can just cause us to be tweaked right there.
Michelle Moujaes:Love it.
Paul Karos:Okay. And did you you're about to say something?
Cindy Karos:Just some personal prayer. You know? That's an example of that. But but I think sometimes, you know, we get so caught up in the outside activities that we are working on that we're not really connecting with our kids in a way that we'd be you know, we'd wish we would. Maybe we look back later and say, gal, you know, I was so focused on what I was doing.
Cindy Karos:I wasn't having that connection with my kids.
Paul Karos:So And it won't be perfect. There are times you're crazy. There are times you're urgent. This is all normal, the arena of family life. That's part of the arena.
Paul Karos:Mhmm. But over time, if you find yourself being short and and you're you're constantly reacting with anger and patience, then it is time just to take a big deep breath, have a glass of wine as a couple, and say, okay. What what what do you are you feeling stressed? Yeah. I'm feeling stressed.
Paul Karos:What what do you think it is? And but between the two of you or a loved one, if you're if you're single parent, you'll figure it out.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. I love that. I also shameless plug, Sam. Check out the encounter, which is an app that Faith Tree has. It's free.
Michelle Moujaes:It's on Android, and it's on Apple. And there's a whole prayer library with lots of specific prayers that parents can pray for their children. So take advantage of that resource because sometimes when we're not sure if we're being indecisive or for being super controlling, we just need the words to lay it before God. And on the encounter, they're all there for you. So there's beautiful akathis and lots of different ways for us to, go before God on behalf of our children.
Paul Karos:Excellent. But we would agree.
Cindy Karos:Even the daily prayers on that app, if if you just focused on those daily prayers, I mean, it is it is a treasure. Yeah.
Michelle Moujaes:Good. Good. Okay. This one's from Hiba in Pennsylvania. I love this question, Hiba.
Michelle Moujaes:It says, my husband and I don't always agree on what balance looks like. One of us leans stricter and the other more relaxed. How do we find the middle way together without constantly undermining each other? Great question, Hiba. How do we do that?
Paul Karos:Well, I tell you, you two have a great opportunity because you are on opposite extremes. And if you humble yourself, you can learn from each other because both of you are needed.
Cindy Karos:Yeah. You you can almost say that's a gift that you're on screens. I'm sure they don't see it as a gift all the time. Yeah. Yeah.
Cindy Karos:Having both sides, if you can actually look at what is good and noble and true about each side, your chances are you're gonna get into the middle.
Paul Karos:So the one needs to become a little more gentle and patient and a little bit more connected in their connection with their children. The other needs to have the courage to know that their kids need limits and they they need some disappointments. It's fine. It's it's good. Disappointments don't crush our kids as if Mhmm.
Paul Karos:If we don't help them see that disappointments can lead to growth and strength. Right? Endurance leads to character. Character leads to hope, Saint Paul says. So so learn from each other.
Paul Karos:Humble yourselves to each other. And then in doing that, you'll find the middle way with each other.
Cindy Karos:Well, and it's also important to note that you wanna be on the same page as much as you can. But let's be real. That doesn't happen all the time.
Michelle Moujaes:That's
Cindy Karos:Oftentimes, one will say, well, this is what we're doing, and you're thinking to yourself, seriously? And then you go back afterwards. Rather than dispute it in front of the kids, Take a minute afterwards and say, is that really what we wanna do?
Paul Karos:Cindy was very good at that. I felt if I'd you know, I was the guy there, like, same thing. I was a little overbearing sometimes. I'd get, you know, intense, impatient. Okay?
Paul Karos:And then later, after calm down, she pulled me aside. You know, she she wouldn't, like, try to change it or correct it in the moment because, you know, parenting's thousands of interactions. Yeah. That's right. No no one parent interaction is gonna make or break our parenting.
Paul Karos:So later that night, have a talk with each other.
Cindy Karos:And then you might even go back to your kids and say, you know what? We were thinking about it, and we'd like to propose something different.
Michelle Moujaes:Now
Cindy Karos:dad was really out of line last night, and so I've corrected him. You know? I mean, you do wanna provide a common front sometimes in the past you can.
Michelle Moujaes:I actually would offer this as well to you, Hibbeh, because, I mean, we've been there. My husband and I have very different backgrounds. He grew up in The Middle East. He was from a small village. I grew up here in Los Angeles.
Michelle Moujaes:And so we don't always, agree on some of the things. And, you know, we we always use this example of, like, who they marry. Like, he wants them to marry someone who's from his village in this small town in Lebanon. And I'm like, you know, he wants all the things. I could care less so long as they love Jesus and their mother-in-law.
Michelle Moujaes:So the way that we kind of reconcile, let's be honest, but the way that we kind of reconcile that is as often as possible, we start with those things that we do agree on, and we kind of get some reps in in areas. And if there's not a few areas, there's always safety. You can always start by thinking it through the lens of we want them to be safe. We want them to be close to the church. So I would say start small and build those muscles together over time.
Cindy Karos:Yes. Okay.
Michelle Moujaes:Oh, this was from an anonymous listener, but I think it's a really good one. I grew up in a very rigid religious environment, and now I'm afraid of being too harsh with my kids. How do I avoid swinging to the opposite extreme?
Paul Karos:Wow. That's a
Cindy Karos:great question.
Michelle Moujaes:That's a good question.
Cindy Karos:Maybe start with listing some of those harsh things that you really didn't like that you would hope to do differently, and then go to the other side and list some things that you're afraid of, you know, being too easy on. And then find that middle way. Identify what are those things that would be on the middle way and keep true to it. You know, life in the church is the middle way. Being virtuous like Christ is the middle way.
Cindy Karos:Being patient, being kind. You know, if you're fasting, if if you are worried that your fasting was so, intense or mean or, you know, imposing, then then scale back in. But maybe just doing that exercise. We would suggest doing that exercise as a couple on any of those topics. And even with a group of friends at church, even to say, let's take a look at a topic and figure out what is overzealous and what is apathetic and what is the middle way.
Paul Karos:You know, I I did too I did too for that for that person is to look back and, you know, first, thank the Lord for it sounds like the parents really did try to teach the faith. So it was overbearing. It was over harsh. That wasn't good. But okay, thank you, mom and dad, for the reason I'm still in the church is probably because mom and dad did teach me the church.
Paul Karos:But what this person can now do is have the inspiration and the beauty of the Lord, the beauty of forgiveness, the beauty of forgiving somebody else, the beauty, the the the the the goodness of preparing for communion. And so they'll wanna make sure that they are experiencing the love of God and that that spiritual life is slow and steady, and we have good days and bad days, and let their kids experience that in them. And that can then help yeah. So that's another thing we we could add
Michelle Moujaes:to And I would add to that as well. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Because a lot of times, we wanna reject things that were too extreme from our childhood. And I would say that's where I would really encourage you to lean into community life because if you feel vulnerable about things like, don't want my kid to experience what that was, then you may choose to opt out or let your kid have some control over those decisions that I don't wanna go. But it makes it all the more hard if you don't create those relationships which keep the church and involvement in the church as a place of joy and love and relationship.
Michelle Moujaes:So I would just really encourage you, to be mindful that in rejecting what was, you're not forgetting what is or could be.
Cindy Karos:I loved what Paul said. You know, the parents, maybe they didn't know any better. Rather than being having an anger toward your parents, really be grateful and just decide how you might do it slightly differently.
Michelle Moujaes:Love it. I love it. Alright, you guys. I have overstayed my welcome. Is there anything else you wanna add before we bless and release you?
Paul Karos:No. We're just really glad you're doing this podcast. It's wonderful, Michelle. Hope it helps lots of parents.
Michelle Moujaes:God willing. And for those of you watching, I'm gonna give you a preview. I think I've done it before, but Paul and Cindy actually have written a course and a book. So keep your eye out on it on exactly these topics to help those of us who are in the midst of it, really, like, drill down and learn these lessons deeply. But we'll give you more information about that, in not too long.
Michelle Moujaes:You guys, we love you. You know you're my favorites. I'm sure you have much to do, so we will bless and release you and say thank you for your time as always.
Paul Karos:Thank you, Michelle.
Cindy Karos:Thank you so much.
Michelle Moujaes:And thanks to you for watching. Remember, the middle way is the path of discernment. It helps us avoid fear driven extremes, and instead it allows us to trust in God's long, work in our families and allows us to slow down, stay present and become more like him. One prayerful decision at a time. Don't forget to download your free digital discussion guide and God willing, I will see you next time.