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A weekly podcast about the forces shaping politics, power and technology, and how they affect you.
Matt Kendall (00:00)
I think if you hit a billion dollars, that's the limit. Everything goes back into public services. You get your name on the hall of fame and you won at capitalism.
Hello and welcome to Worth Knowing, a weekly podcast about the forces affecting politics, power, and technology and how they affect you. I'm Matt Kendall.
Elliot Costello (00:22)
And I'm Elliot Costello.
Matt Kendall (00:24)
So Elliot, episode eleven. for this one we're tackling the big kahuna, the I word, inequality. yeah, for a podcast that's about the forces affecting politics, power and technology. It's almost the the ring that rules them all, that sits above them all. It's it's it's rampant at the moment, wealth inequality. And I think particularly
In America with the the tech oligarchs and the billionaires and the the obscene wealth that's accumulating in a handful of men, and they are men. and they're they're essentially got the the wealth and power of nation states. and it's a l a little bit like some of the other big issues we've been tackling, AI and climate change. It is one of those issues where, yes, we need to address them at a local and national level.
But we need to there needs to be a global effort, otherwise nothing's going to be effective in in terms of tackling it. So this is this is a big one. a lot of our previous episodes have touched on what we'll be discussing here and you know, we will be mentioning some some themes that we've touched on in previous episodes as well. So this is a big one, so we we best get into it.
Elliot Costello (01:47)
Yeah, it is a big one. It's going to be hard to contain to 30 minutes, I think, certainly for two people like you and I that are really passionate about wealth and equality, the way that society is trending and the sort of path that we're on. We'll have to break this apart. It was my idea midweek to unpack this episode. And I guess from a personal perspective,
I don't sit easily with this issue. It's probably part of the reason I get up in the morning. I grew up much like you, Matt, in a middle income family in the suburb of Melbourne called St Kilda, public primary education, being exposed to lot of migrants, working class people close to the Port Melbourne, South Melbourne, where the sort of docs are.
And very rich childhood. The other side, if you turn left for security, you go into the more affluent suburbs of Hampton Brighton, Sandringham and had exposure through sport and schooling with different walks of life. when more, you know, certainly, I guess upper-class societies, but it never felt like there was a big gap between rich and poor. It felt like there was a common middle, certainly growing up.
And over the last sort of 30 or 40 years, I have watched the obscene wealth concentrate in that sort of top echelon of that one to 5%. And there's structural systems and economic system in play through capitalism that does reward winners and freezes and penalizes the worker. So big one to one pack. don't know about you, but I just feel Australia has lost that.
power of the middle, that middle economy we once were now is an advanced economy that is certainly driven by the rewards of our mineral economy for all the damage it's done to the environment, how it's enabled Australia to become a very wealthy country has also meant that we've lost part of that sort of middle income family. We've moved into two tiers and it's of concern to me.
Matt Kendall (04:10)
I've got a few years on you.
Elliot Costello (04:12)
you
Matt Kendall (04:13)
literally I'm if anyone's watched Stranger Things, I was, you know, in nineteen eighty four I was like nine years old and I was riding around on BMXs with walkie talkies. and it just felt like everybody was middle class. I grew up in the western suburbs of Sydney.
And you know, even, you know, the the working the the working class had a had a house, had a nice life, everyone sort of would go away on holidays once a year. and it you know, it was it just felt very different to to what we've got now. And I feel like, yeah, something something has been lost on that. And I I don't know if it's because where I've moved up to now, it feels you know, I feel like in in the cities there's a stratification when you live in a suburb.
e you know, might it might have gentrified and you're surrounded by a lot of the the same class. I feel like it's it's different up here. There's you know in the northern rivers is in the Byronshire of New South Wales. And there's there's extreme wealth right next to a lot of what some people call the precariat where they're you know one bill away from a disaster. you know you've got twenty five million dollar houses by the water.
And then you've got single mums living out the back of a car because they haven't been able to find rent because rents have gone so crazy here. and so there's and it's it's funny because I mentioned that. You mentioned it, you you think about this a lot and talk about a lot, so do I. And some of my friends who live in Sydney are kind of like, well, what are you what are you talking about? And they're living, they're middle class, they've stayed middle class, they're either in the North Shore or they're they're in the inner west. And you know, the inner west used to be working class, but now
a small workers cottage in the inner west of Sydney, it can now be, you know,
Elliot Costello (05:54)
Hmm.
Matt Kendall (05:55)
upwards of one point eight, one point nine million dollars. And you're surrounded by the people that can afford that kind of thing. So it's not as in your face, perhaps, as it might be up here. So you you have to wonder how how did how did we get here?
Elliot Costello (06:10)
Yeah,
look, we both mentioned the word feelings a number of times. So that's a sentiment. It's an observation we have for the past four to five decades between us watched it evolve and grow. But there are hard facts and it's worth sort of going through, I think the hard facts of where we are today and then maybe looking back to history and placing.
sort of this position and moment in time to history. in terms of, I'll start with the US because it's the most obscene and gross illustration of wealth inequality. And this is a stat according to the US Federal Reserve that the richest 1 % of American citizens own $50 trillion of wealth. And compared to the 99%, that's half. So the 99 % below own a hundred trillion.
dollars of wealth and the 1 % own 50. So for 99 people, every $2 they earn, that one person owns 50 cents. And it's just a wild extrapolation of wealth and concentration and getting worse. Well in Australia, not as illustrative, but certainly still as problematic. The 1 % in Australia own a quarter of wealth.
And in hard numbers, that's 20 people in the same amount of wealth as the 3 million other Australians combined. So those top 20 have more or equal wealth as 3 million other Australians. So that disparity is quite significant. It's certainly the most unequal time in human history. People point back to the Gilded Ages of the late 19th century. So the 1850s, 1860s through to the 1900s.
as the most extreme form of inequality. Today's worse than the Gilded Ages. More staggering is the levels of inequality today are even more extreme than the British aristocracy at the height of the British Empire. And you don't have to be a historian to know the levels of inequality that existed during the British Empire and the few merchants that owned so much.
and families and royals and everything else, but that is less extreme to the levels of inequality in Western society today.
Matt Kendall (08:42)
Yeah, I there was an incredible stat I saw on that from Daron Asamoglu, And he was saying that the the British Empire at its peak, at a an inflation adjusted basis, only had half the wealth of one of the top any of the top seven tech companies. So that just puts things into perspective.
and then, you know, you go back to the the the barons of the Gilded Age and it was it was agreed across the board that they had way too much power and they implemented policies. They implemented the antitrust laws that are still around today to you know avoid that control because they had so much control over public infrastructure. Organized labor addressed it. and that sort of carried on through to the post war era.
Where I think CEOs in 1965 of American companies earned only 21 times the the the the average wage of their workers. And then now recently in 2024, that has just blown right out to 281 times. And then obviously, when you get to the the the point one percent of those CEOs, it it it obviously goes stratospheric. and I think
One of the the the turning points on that was Reagan. So I I was in what that childhood I was telling you about was where things started to turn. You know, Reagan, Thatcher in the UK, you know, even even to some extent here in in Australia, some of those you know, basically unions started to lose their power, progressive taxes were pulled down. so I think during Reagan, I think it was 78%.
of the the top was the top tax ban and that's now been brought right down I you know down into into the the the 30s and and the twenties in many countries and there's been some studies to show that wherever there has been a tax cut on the rich, it has actually revert the the wealth has flown has reversed and flowed back to the top. So this this whole furfee, this lie that I remember everybody, it was like this mantra trickle down economics.
You know, you you allow the top to make more money and it will trickle down to everyone else. And it's clear from the stats that we've just shared here now, it was trickle up economics all along.
Elliot Costello (11:12)
Yeah, I mean, that's evident and been proven, but we're still living in a system that rewards the rich and penalizes anyone that attempts to increase taxes. We're seeing a few green shoots and how that might change globally. Certainly not here in Australia, but we've unpacked that in other episodes. Just to avoid a podcast on taxation.
Neither you or I are qualified to do that, even though taxation runs in the family blood. I'm not going to try and tempt to introduce or unpack what a good progressive tax system or code would look like. We are trying to focus on individual wealth and certainly certain individuals within the technology industry.
that's just where the extrapolation of wealth is today. And you mentioned the seven major companies. So obviously that's the meta alphabet, which is Google, Amazon, Nvidia, et cetera, how much they own in comparison to the heart of the British empire. It's capitalism. And I think we have to acknowledge that
There's been a lot of good that's come from capitalism. know, our lifestyles today have benefited from capitalism in many respects. And I think this isn't a broad brush on the full economic system, but it's a complete stroke and strike on the extremes of a system and an unchecked system and a vested interest system that makes things worse and worse. And I just want to quickly talk about the three ways that I capitalism has failed.
in recent history and first and foremost is ensuring that the bottom half of the economy has not shared in the complete benefits of the capitalism. So if you're looking at data specifically from the 1980s onwards, that sort of bottom 50 % has had income freeze or decline relative to inflation from the 1980s onwards.
So in an economy in the last 45 years that has continued to grow year on year, and yes, there's been moments and a bit of stagflation and the COVID sort of periods, but periodically growing at anywhere between three to 8%, depending on what market you're looking at, that bottom 50 % has effectively frozen its level of income. So that's the first major failing. The second is the inequality at the top.
So what we want, what we're trying to unpack here is the extrapolation of wealth. You mentioned the 21 times CEO package to the 280. That's, that is just a bonkers stat, like bonkers stat when you break that down 21 X to 280 X like trying to do it. That's 14, that's 14 times over growth. So that level of disparity and a term that we never heard until recently was a trillionaire.
Now we have trillionaires in our global economy, and more and more people on the path to become trillionaires. So that's the second thing, the level of inequality at top. And the third is the power that concentrates in corporations when there is that much wealth. And that's the problem in the political structures today.
that individuals and their companies have such obscene levels of wealth, which means they have such obscene levels of power. And we've unpacked it before and it's not to rehash it, but you can walk into a embassy or state government's office or federal government's office and say, this is what we want and this is what you get. Or we move our employee base or we move our taxes elsewhere. And the...
revolving door has led to a very unhealthy structure. So capitalism has failed, it's worked in many respects and I won't go into the history of, you know, the benefits of how it's lifted millions of people out of poverty, but it certainly failed for the bottom 50 % in giving them adjusted incomes that is fair and representative. It's failed to curb the growth of trillionaires and billionaires turning into trillionaires. And it's failed to really put a
place and a ring around the powerful major corporations.
Matt Kendall (15:52)
I I'm not such a fan of of capitalism. I think yet there was a period there where it was of of some benefit. I do see it as being ultimately extractive and there's an argument to say that we don't even really have capitalism now, that we've got different ki it's kind of crony capitalism, there's there's all sorts of kleptocracy going on over in over in the States.
But even if you look in Australia, you know, we we it's not it's not a free market. You know, it w what has happened is everything's kind of getting concentrated. Even in Australia, we've got two supermarkets to choose from. We've got four big banks. Like there are smaller players, but most of the tr it we it kind of traps us into almost like a a a centralized market. So the promise of capitalism is not delivering anymore. And we you and I we both work in business.
When a strategy isn't working, when something isn't delivered in isn't delivering, you need to pivot away from it. I think that's where we're at now. We're in this late stage capitalism. Its ability to adjust and deliver for people is not working anymore. And just to a a further illustration of of just the immense wealth that's going on is, you know, I've been watching a lot of Gary's economics videos and he's been a a great champion in really bringing awareness around this inequality and what needs to be
done about it. I think he's a little bit kind of singular focus. I think it's a system thing that needs to be that the it needs to be approached in a a systems thinking way. But he he knows more about this stuff. He's forgotten more about this stuff than I know about it. But w once interesting stat he said he went back to his first episode and at that stage he was talking about how the English government had made a $300 billion stimulus. And he mentioned that the
wealthiest man in the world had a wealth of a hundred billion dollars at that point. That was pre-COVID. It's not that long now since COVID, and we now have a trillionaire. So that is how much wealth has grown. Now, our economies haven't been growing. Our economies have not been growing at what at a a hundred percent, 40% or anything like that. They've been growing really slowly, you know, some sometimes at two and four percent. So what this means when you've got
People or individual with these extreme amounts of wealth, and their wealth is growing at that amount, it's exponential. And it's sucking it all up. It's sucking it out of our economies, out of Australia, out of our wallets, and it's going up into their businesses. And because of the way they structure them, they're not paying taxes or they they are paying taxes, but they're not paying the pat the taxes that that we pay in terms of, you know, we buy we pay, you know, 30 per 30 odd percent of our wages. That
Elliot Costello (18:36)
Hmm.
Matt Kendall (18:36)
is not happening.
in any meaningful way. So what that means is that governments are getting poorer. And, you know, a lot of the arguments right now against the cost of living crisis, the against the government, the Labour government, and saying the government is spending too much. I saw Burris on his poke p podcast was complaining that the government is spending too much. We are bang in the middle of the OECD. What the problem is is that we actually don't have
yeah, the the corporates are doing fine right now. Then the many are making record profits. What we're the issue we've got with this rampant inequality is that we're getting poorer and poorer. We're still paying our fair share of taxes. Meanwhile, this top one percent, top point one percent are not paying their fair share, and their wealth is increasing at an exponential level and at a level that if we do not globally
as an alliance address this, then there we're going to be there's going to be a loss of sovereignty at at at a considerable level.
Elliot Costello (19:45)
Well, I think they've already used the loss of sovereignty. You know, I think that's certainly clear.
Matt Kendall (19:54)
Well yeah. I mean you see how we're going cap in hand
to the AI companies around data centers at the moment. It's that's kinda w that's what we're doing.
Elliot Costello (19:58)
Well, that's one.
Yeah, that's a clear loss of sovereignty militarily. That's a loss of sovereignty. We're handing over all defense packs to the US and putting ourselves in an alliance and a dependency on unfriendly partner. We unpacked that last week. I think you end up the title America, the friend you can't trust. So you did well with that title. So systems.
failing us collectively. And I don't think there's too many that disagree with that. The project of liberal democracy is starting to become weak and failing. There's a risk, and we've talked about this, and I think you and I disagree a little bit on this, around pulling the system down and what it means, rebuilding something new versus
of mending the system that exists and trying to rescue some form of neoliberal democracy, not neoliberal capitalism. I think we can find a bit of common ground there, but what you're talking about is how we're witnessing this downfall in hierarchy. So whether you're left or right,
We are all experiencing a breakdown in institutions and we're seeing it in real time. And it's not allowing us to put the safeguards and regulations and rules in place to protect us as citizens, climate change, AI, wealth inequality, it's all there. There's not consensus to do so because of the structural inequality of how power sits. So if power rests in the hands of the few, the elite, the 1%,
There is no incentive to rebuild a system that's fair and equitable for all. That's the baseline, as simple as that. So whilst there is a movement and pushback from, you know, DSA in America, Democratic Socialist America, through to One Nation in Australia, they are pushers in very different angles, far left, far right, that are pushing at a system and saying, we call bluff, this is bullshit, let's...
change the system, we're not buying into this two-part centrist approach anymore. The result, certainly from an American perspective, has been a rise of fascism. in short, fascism is sort of best described as an attempt to preserve the existing class hierarchy. So it's an incentive structure to keep the system in place for the system that it works for, which is, of course, the elites.
Capitalism is a form of hierarchy. as, you know, racism is a form of hierarchy, sexism is a form of hierarchy. So there's multiple structures of hierarchy. Capitalism is a form of hierarchy. And the very basic form of hierarchy is rich over poor, owner over worker. Okay. So that's the system in place that's beginning to fail. I won't jump too far.
Matt Kendall (23:16)
this is well
within that system the owners are going this is and it's this is gonna get worse. The owners are doing exceptionally well. But if you're an earner, then you go over the next while there's you're you're you're going to start to s unless there is significant change, you are going to start to see your wealth and the wealth of your children if not collapse, at least start to d diminish for quite rapidly.
Elliot Costello (23:40)
Well, that started Matt, like we're living with inflationary pressures, the over government spending over COVID, the levels of inflation cannot be contained, certainly in Australia, but that's a global wide problem. Interest rates went up again last week, four times this year. Prices are, things are more expensive, whether that's the price of bread or the price of a car, like things
are...
Matt Kendall (24:02)
But then why?
Why is that? It's because of these wars. So you've got you've basically got this these systems, the the people who are doing so well out of this, starting these wars. It's feeding the the whole, you know, military industrial complex.
Elliot Costello (24:14)
Military complex. Yeah
Matt Kendall (24:16)
And I'll tell you what, I'll tell you who's who else is doing really well out of this war? The the the the fossil fuel companies, you know. Woodside is killing it at the moment. So and meanwhile, our our energy prices are going through the roof.
So this is this it's it's part of a very sick and twisted system that if we don't start to rise up against it and and actually start to insist on change and fight this one percentism that is and I tell you what, this is what if you think one nation is going to help this in any way, you've got Gina Reinhardt, she she's she's not giving
Elliot Costello (24:59)
So.
Matt Kendall (25:00)
she's not giving one nation
planes and then just recently this week, a whole office building, eight million dollars. She's not giving that to one nation out of the goodness of the heart because she likes what Pauline. She's doing that because she knows Pauline is going to protect keeping that 1% and knows that Pauline is going to ensure that the, you know, your Indian friend down the road and the African Uber driver is going to get blamed.
for this diminishing wealth that Australians are experiencing.
Elliot Costello (25:30)
I just, don't disagree, but I think you've got to distinguish between one nation's funders. So the Reinharts and others that are enabling the rise of the populist right and one nation supporters, because what that elite we're talking about a, the structural inequality of those that own all the means of wealth and what they want is that division. So they want that division to exist from left to right. That keeps the power in place. They want the frustration.
to be blamed on Elbow and they're left to be pointing back to One Nation and saying, guys have no idea how to govern, you your headless chooks, et cetera.
Matt Kendall (26:09)
Actually if if
we go deep in that in episode five. So if you are interested in that, we talk about why the left has been failing and the right's been resurgent. We go quite deeply into that, about how the grievance and the pain is right, but it's being directed in complete if it's punching down instead of punching up to the the we've just given you the statistics. That's the cause of
Elliot Costello (26:31)
But that's
the alignment too, Matt, and where there is hope is this unveiling or reckoning that the 99 % realize that the system in place benefits the few and that is the 1%. And it's not that saying all wealthy people are evil. That's a really poor mischaracterization. There's some good people that want structural change and wealthy people that have...
use their intelligence to build wealth, but are calling for a more fairer progressive tax system that leads to better social services. But for those, in coming back to the oligarchs, we're talking about the tech fascism that we're seeing, the alignment between state and the sort of capital in the US and the powers here in Australia being GINA. We
need to unite with one aggrieved one nation voters who are frustrated by a system that they're not that is not working for them. And anyone on the left that's sitting there saying that, you know, we're not getting action on climate change, social services, education, etc. So that alignment together to call out the inequality to call out the structure is where the movement begins. If it is a battle between, you know, DSA and, you know, MAGA or
you know, the Greens and One Nation Australia. That's the absolute formula that's going to allow this system to stay in place.
Matt Kendall (27:59)
Yeah, I think and I suppose just looking at time, we do need to start to to wrap it up. But I think there are there are once again, there are solutions out there. It's like climate. less so with AI, where the I I I feel like that's a a a bit more out of control. But look it Yeah,
Elliot Costello (28:19)
Well, good regulations will make it in control.
Matt Kendall (28:22)
exactly.
But I think look, if if you were to ask me, and this isn't realistic at all, I'm not even suggesting this, but I I if it was to me, there would be a one billion dollar limit to wealth and you would get it there'd be the billionaire hall of fame, just like you get the hall of fame of rock and roll, you know, you get the street and you get your plaque. If you're an actor, you get your star. I think if you hit a billion dollars, that's the limit. Everything goes back into public services. You get your name on the hall of fame and you won at capitalism.
But that that's not realistic. But there is a whole lot of things we can start to do. you know, and there it's there's a whole raft, you know, Gabriel Zuckman and and and talking about a wealth tax. We need to d have a death tax, but you know, a lot of in particular in America, they've got a thing which is called buy, borrow, die, where you know, you you buy these assets.
you borrow against them as their wealth increases and as the stock increases. and the one crazy anecdote is that I think there was one year where Jeff Bezos could have could have qualified for family support with his kids because his income was so low. and that was because you know there is no income. He's not cashing in any of his stock.
To have a taxable event on the capital gains. He's taking out a loan against the collateral. And then basically those loans are paid off because his wealth is constantly increasing. And this is one of the arguments against a wealth tax. They say it's paper wealth. It's not real. It might go up. It might go down. And I call bullshit on that. it's very simple. well, not simple, it but they make it easy when they're able to
value their wealth when they're using that as collateral. Elon Musk used his Tesla stock in order to buy Twitter. It seems very easy to work it out then. So I call bullshit on that. There are ways we can do it. You can put, I don't know, those stocks into escrow as for a sovereign fund. So whether they go up or down, it you know, it's once again, it's that shared wealth. We need to s you as you said, we're not gonna go into the detail of the tax code here. But
Elliot Costello (30:37)
You're doing a good job, Matt. I
think you have.
Matt Kendall (30:39)
But but we need
to we do really need to start having these conversations with really smart people instead of saying, it's all too hard. They said income tax was too hard calculating it. We've worked that out. And I think there are ways to make sure there's a no exit strategy wealth tax for this obscene amount of wealth. You know, people say they're gonna take billionaires or take their wealth out of the country, they'll leave. You know,
a lot of them that left weren't paying tax anyway. So good riddance. But you know, you can also do an exit tax with that. The
Elliot Costello (31:10)
But Mandami's
proven too in New York that the threats of wealthy New Yorkers to leave New York if he was elected didn't come true. So they have stayed in New Yorkshire. Some might have changed their primary residence, but they haven't left New York per se. I love your big ideas, your big thinking, your extreme thoughts.
maybe the billion dollar cap will be something that a future progressive party puts forward. Probably a simpler point for me is just continuing to work at the sort of protection of liberal democracy. You know, I still do believe democracy is the best system for us. I think we need to change the economic structures and incentives behind the system.
But these levels of inequality can and should be resolved through democracy. And whilst it's failing and weak and it's being challenged, we need to form a broader coalition to fight for a system that does work for that 50 % at the bottom and caps and controls the unsustained growth at the top. So that's my parting hope that the political class will either wake up or step back and allow a generation of new
Big thinking, big ideas, willing to take risks, willing to have the courage to surface some ideas and be criticized for it and that being okay and not being caught by a system that perpetuates a problem that doesn't seem to have an end, doesn't seem to have an ending in sight.
Matt Kendall (32:51)
Yeah, mate, I c I couldn't agree more. I I think there's there's a there's there is an inherent conservatism within Australian politics and even media. I've noticed just recently David Shoebridge is under attack for owning his w his wife, who's a very successful lawyer, herself being attacked for having a nice house. Steph Hodgins May being attacked for having a part ownership and a farm, as if that's disqualifying for having
ideas that can help make our system better. And I think I I'm really disappointed in our mainstream media. And I'm glad there's a real s resurgence in independent media. There's some been some great episodes on this recently in lame stream media and at media. And I think we really do need to start making space for some of these ideas. We mentioned in our previous episode about the middle powers.
We know there a lot needs to be done in Australia. That's where our sovereignty around this is. And I think we do need to have some kind of taxation at point of purchase with a lot of these tech giants, especially moving into the AI age. But I think we are going to have to form a global alliance. Maybe it's something we can do with the Middle Powers Alliance. We've been discussing in that previous episode with the likes of you know, Carney in in Canada and and Burnham in the UK.
But I think also a lot of developing nations as well, they're going to have to have a stake in in this moving forward as well.
Elliot Costello (34:16)
And if you took nothing else from this episode, you've heard it first that Matt has officially put the UK in a middle power segment. That's a big scoop. I'm not sure the Brits would agree. It's certainly a declining power, but I don't know if they've slipped into a middle power. They're still part
of the G7.
Matt Kendall (34:36)
I don't know then. That would you say that would you s I don't no,
but there's certainly not. There's certainly not China. The it it there were in we there was a unipolar world. We're now in a multipolar world with with China and and obviously the US. some might say Russia, but that's definitely declining. No, I I stand by that. I I think they're look they're in they're in all sorts of trouble, mate. Burnham's Burnham's acknowledged it in his speech, so yeah.
Elliot Costello (35:02)
I'll tell my middle partner, British fiance tonight. So
Matt Kendall (35:06)
Yeah.
Elliot Costello (35:08)
lots, lots in that, Matt. We're going to come back to this time and time again. And I think
Matt Kendall (35:13)
Absolutely.
Elliot Costello (35:14)
it's our challenge and responsibility to start looking at the individuals, not just the sweeping generalisation on the companies and you know, the way they're operating. I think it's the individuals that are driving this narrative, driving this inequality. But hopefully that's enough.
to whet the appetite for a topic that's worth knowing around the structural wealth inequality that exists around the world.
Matt Kendall (35:39)
Yeah. I think that wraps us up for another week. and we'll look forward to seeing you next week for another topic worth knowing. See you soon.