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No state has fallen further than Kansas in America’s Health Rankings. We used to be 8th in 1991.
Why did we slip so far down in the rankings? The answer might surprise you; it’s based on a leadership challenge.
At the Kansas Health Foundation, our bold vision is to make Kansas the healthiest state in the nation and to do so, this movement must be powered by Kansans in positions of authority and influence to shift Health outcomes.
Starting with the launch of the 2025 publication, Leading Health, written by President and CEO of the Kansas Health Foundation, Ed O’Malley, this podcast aims to break down key concepts of this leadership challenge and actionable ways that we can work together to make a real impact on Health in Kansas.
In each episode, Ed O’Malley, and Senior Advisor at Kansas Health Foundation, Susan Kang, will highlight a chapter in the book and discuss with Kansans who are actively engaged in expanding our definition of Health.
Leading Health is an invitation to move the needle on Health in Kansas, and we invite you to join us in leading the way.
Ep15
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Collaboration Chapter Intro
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[00:00:00]
Ed O'Malley: Welcome back to another episode of the Leading Health podcast, where we dive into this book, Leading Health: How You and 30,000 Kansans Help Communities Thrive. Susan, today [00:01:00] we're gonna dive into the chapter about collaboration, chapter 15. It's good to be with you again.
Susan Kang: Uh, it's so great to be with you.
I'm really excited about this chapter.
Ed O'Malley: Yeah, it's, um, we're in the part of the book, we're in part three. So part one of the book was describing the slide of health in Kansas- Mm-hmm ... going from one of the healthiest states in the nation down to the low point of number 31 in America's health rankings, and why that's a problem. You know, part two of the book was the, the surprising part of the book, right? Where we said, "Hey, and surprise, it's not a health challenge, it's a leadership challenge." Right. And in particular, it's a leadership challenge where the 30,000, those Kansans in key roles of authority, have a unique responsibility. In part three, we're trying to unpack what that responsibility is. Mm-hmm. In essence, we're trying to unpack what does it look like for those 30,000 to use their authority to exercise [00:02:00] leadership to help create a healthier Kansas?
Why Collaboration Matters
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Ed O'Malley: And, and we're well into part three, and this chapter is chapter 15, called Create Collaboration.
Susan Kang: Yeah. You know, and just that title alone, it feels like, ah, create collaboration, that's easy to do, right? I mean, I think most people think that they're all about collaboration, that they th- they think they're d- they're really good at it, and they value it. I think most people would say that. But really, to do it well, um, after reading this chapter, I mean, it's much harder than we think, uh, it will be
. so today I'd love to spend some time, , around some of these approaches to collaboration.
Anchor a Clear Goal
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Susan Kang: One of the ones I wanna talk about first is anchoring. Anchoring around a bold and specific objective. Yeah. Talk about that.
Ed O'Malley: Yeah, you know, we we talk about that in the, in the chapter because, everybody, like, raise your hand if you're opposed to collaboration.
Very few people will raise their hand. Everybody knows it's something they should value. Mm-hmm. Everybody knows [00:03:00] it's a good thing. Right. Now, some people will say, "Yeah, it can get messy," or some people who have gotten in the middle of big collaborative efforts that didn't work might be a little gun-shy about it.
But for the most part, people know that they should do it. But one of the things we're trying to do is with these, in the chapter, wh- when we talk about these different approaches, we're trying to, in essence, give advice based on our experience, the experience of our partners, of what are some things that will make it more likely, and this idea of anchoring the collaboration in something specific. So what we're getting at here is those in authority, right, the 30,000, they have the ability to use their authority to say, "Hey, this topic right here, this specific thing inside our organization, or this specific thing in our community- Mm-hmm or this specific thing in our state, this is what we need to collaborate on," and creating that kind of expectation [00:04:00] that we're collaborating about this specific, , issue, this specific opportunity, how to make our organization more innovative, you know, how to make our community, , grow its tax base.
But, like, anchoring it in a specific thing is a powerful way for those with authority to use their authority, 'cause a people in authority can focus attention on, in ways that those without authority just can't. So that's what we mean by anchoring the collaboration. Use your authority to anchor it in something specific, and you'll help go from valuing collaboration in general to actually helping shape it.
Susan Kang: So if there is some kind of scope creep- Mm ... around the objective, is this some, is there some kind of a role for the, , member of the 30,000 , to play to, you know, redirect or focus to the specific objective?
Ed O'Malley: Yeah, I think it, yeah, it helps to have something specific that we know we're collaborating on. You know, if one of the roles of somebody kind of [00:05:00] in a senior authority role is to help people stay focused. Yeah. Yeah. That- that- that's something that their position allows them to do, and making it clear what we're trying to collaborate about, you know, what, what issue related to health can't be solved but for collaboration, and then naming it, and holding people accountable to that, and expecting it is a key, key piece.
I
Susan Kang: love that. Okay. Thank, thank you for that. I love that. ,
Require Not Encourage
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Susan Kang: The other concept, um, or another approach is this notion of requiring collaboration versus encouraging it.
Ed O'Malley: Yeah. Okay, so this, I, I'm excited, , for talk about this, and it's specifically because of our guest today. So Kenny Wilk is gonna join us here in just a little while.
And, you know, I, I learned this from Kenny. When I was in the legislature- No way ... yeah, when I was in the legislature, I would see Kenny use his role as chair of a committee-
Susan Kang: Mm-hmm ...
Ed O'Malley: to require people to collaborate together.
Susan Kang: Mm.
Ed O'Malley: So [00:06:00] he would often, on a contentious issue, ~um,~ tell the proponents and the opponents that, "I want you all to go spend the next couple days, get together, work this out, and come back with a, with a solution- Mm
that - works for both of you." So he, he was in essence saying that, "If you all don't collaborate, we're not gonna take this up again as a committee." Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. So he was using his power, his authority, his position, his role to require it. You know, he wasn't just saying, "You know, it sure would be nice if you proponents and you opponents got together and kinda found some common ground."
Yeah. He would say, like, "Get together, find common ground, and when you do, then we'll talk again." Mm-hmm. So it's an example of there are times you have to require it, and only those in authority are gonna have the ability to actually do something like Kenny just, just, uh- Right, right ... what, what Kenny did often
Susan Kang: what I love about this is that it seems a little sort of counterintuitive to this notion of collaboration, right? To, require or [00:07:00] to mandate something. Right. So that is what I found interesting about it.
Ed O'Malley: Oh, that's really good, Susan, 'cause yeah, collaboration can sometimes feel a little touchy, a little feely.
Yeah,
Susan Kang: yeah.
Ed O'Malley: A little, um, you know, a little, little let's just all get together and everything's gonna be fine. And that's not what we're talking about. I mean, what we're talking about is nobody has the whole answer.
Susan Kang: Mm-hmm.
Ed O'Malley: Like, nobody on these- Mm-hmm ... deep, daunting challenges- Right these, these health challenges that are vexing our organizations and our communities and our state, nobody literally has the answer.
Now, there are plenty of people who think they have the answer. Right. You know, if we would just do my preferred strategy, my pr- preferred whatever, a lot of people think to themselves health would be fine. We would solve things. We would make progress. But when you actually study the stuff, and you, and you get involved, and you watch what's happening, you realize nobody actually has the right answer.
And so the point [00:08:00] of collaboration, and we maybe should've started with this, of like, why? Why do we have this chapter in here?
Susan Kang: Mm-hmm.
Ed O'Malley: The point is on these deep, daunting, vexing challenges- If you don't bring people together who each have a piece of the picture- Mm-hmm ... a piece of the puzzle, you can never complete the puzzle. And often people have to be told they have to work together on the puzzle. Often they have to be in situations where they are literally required to do so, like we're talking about right now, but you don't get to the solutions without those perspectives kind of clashing up together, which is why people in the 30,000 have to use their authority to help make it happen.
Susan Kang: That's, that's awesome. ,
Next Level Lived Experience
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Susan Kang: The third, sort of way to collaborate, I wanna just, um, have you talk a little bit about is sharing power with those with lived experiences, and you talk about this as next level [00:09:00] collaboration. So talk a little bit about that concept.
Ed O'Malley: Yeah, I, I think something's happened the last couple decades which is really, really good, and, and that is that more and more people understand that on these deep, daunting challenges, like improving health- Mm-hmm that the people closest to the challenge, so the, the people, for example, living wi- with the greatest health disparities, the people who are having the biggest challenge of having a healthy life for them and their family, that they often know best- Right what they need. Right. Like, like, you know, like, that, that's been a movement the last 20, 30 years.
Mm-hmm. And, and I, I, I know there are examples of that well be- before then, but I've noticed that in my career that more and more people understand the value of, , listening to those with lived experience. What we're getting at here is a little different. So i- in this part of the chapter, [00:10:00] what we're in essence saying is that listening to those with lived experience is really important. But when you involve those with lived experience into a collaboration, and you do so in a way that truly empowers them, that's different. That's what we mean by next level. And there are too many examples of kind of the token representation of somebody with lived experience-
Susan Kang: Yeah,
Ed O'Malley: yeah ... you know, in a conversation.
Mm-hmm,
Susan Kang: mm-hmm.
Ed O'Malley: That's not what we're talking about here. What we're talking about here is how do you create the opportunity, how do you use your authority, again, if you're in the 30,000, , to not just listen to those with lived experience, not just center those with lived experience, but literally empower them to be at the table and to be influencing what happens at the table.
Right. That is rare, and [00:11:00] when it happens, though, you end up getting better results. Yeah. You get results that get more progress. But s- too many people in, I think in, in the 30,000, too many people who are in these roles of, you know, authority, a lot of people would call them roles of leadership. You know I don't like to call them that.
Yep, yep. I think that roles of authority, whether they exercise leadership or not is a different question. But I think there are too many people in those roles who feel like, "Well, I, I'm in this role. I'm supposed to solve it," or, "I, I'm supposed to..." or, or, "I, because I'm in this role, I have some kind of wisdom that nobody else has that enables me to solve something." And this is usually happening subconscious in their head. And what we're in essence saying in, in throughout this book, but especially in this chapter is, ~uh,~ no, be- because of your role, you have some wisdom, not all the wisdom you need, and you have an opportunity to bring people who actually have the rest of the wisdom that's needed into this conversation.
Yeah.
Susan Kang: [00:12:00] So I already love this discussion.
Kenny Joins the Show
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Susan Kang: I have more questions for you to ask you to land for us, but I think it's time to bring our guest Kenny Wilk on- Yeah, let's do it ... um, before we go on any further. So come on down, Kenny Hi, Kenny. It's so great to see you again.
Kenny Wilk: Good to be back, Susan.
Susan Kang: Yeah. So last time we had you, was, uh, chapter 10 around, you know, uh, leadership being risky, and now today we're gonna be talking about collaboration. Are you excited?
Kenny Wilk: I am excited. Let's- And I did my homework.
Susan Kang: Okay. Well, good. I wouldn't expect anything else. Okay. So because you did your homework, , I'm just curious to know before we get started, like, you know, give us some thoughts about collaboration.
Kenny Wilk: Well, you know, part of what I really enjoy about coming down and being on the show, other than just spending time with all the quality folks here, is it, it does make me and gives me a reason to go back and visit the book and crack it open a- and take a deeper dive into it.
Yeah. And I have to say, every time I do, I learn something new, I pick up a new idea.
Susan Kang: Right.
Kenny Wilk: Yeah. So [00:13:00] that, that's one of the things I wanna really encourage people. I, I really consider the book Leading Health, it's more than a book. It's more like a textbook. It's a tool. It's a template, and it's something you can go back and keep visiting and keep getting ideas from.
So I want our listeners to know - use it like that, and if you happen to wear it out and the pages get worn, I, I bet you KHF would send you another copy.
Ed O'Malley: We would definitely send another copy. But I do wanna talk about copies of books real quick. Kenny, you have an extra special edition.
Kenny Wilk: I do.
Ed O'Malley: And I think some people will watch this, so I need you to just hold that up. , So there's a special cover-
Kenny Wilk: There
Ed O'Malley: you go ... for the book that Kenny has. And, uh- Have my name on
Kenny Wilk: it
Ed O'Malley: right there ... with his name on it and everything. And that, uh, when we released the book, we did so at our event called HealthRise, and you were there. So everybody there got a special edition, and, , I love, I love seeing that special cover.
But yeah, we will definitely give people more copies if they wear them out. And you know, Kenny, I appreciate what you're saying because the book is by design simple. Uh, [00:14:00] we wrote it to be a simple, highly accessible book, but that doesn't mean the ideas all are intuitive, and even if they are intuitive, it doesn't mean the ideas are always practiced.
So revisiting these simple, maybe even intuitive ideas do- does matter.
Kenny Wilk: It, it absolutely matters.
Defining Collaboration Better
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Kenny Wilk: So Susan, I, you know, I always kinda like to start out with the very basics. So we're talking about collaboration.
Ed O'Malley: Mm-hmm.
Kenny Wilk: So how do we define collaboration? I always... You know, everybody can have a little different perspective, a little different view, but I'm hoping maybe for our conversation here, I, I took a stab at something that's really, collaboration, working together with one or more to achieve a shared goal.
Susan Kang: Mm-hmm
Kenny Wilk: Working with, t-together with one or more to achieve a shared goal. So it, , it's so important. I know we're gonna get in, to a lot more of the details, but, uh, o- one of the things I really take from [00:15:00] this chapter is the whole challenge about we ... You know, Ed, I heard you earlier talk about it. You walk into any room, any format, and ask people, "Are you for collaboration?"
"Absolutely." So I, I think we all encourage it, we all talk about it, but I love this concept about creating collaboration versus encouraging. A- and you know, then I went, I, I wanted to look up create. Yeah. So that, that, that's another. You know, to make something new or bring something into existence.
And I, I wanna suggest for our conversation here, most people actually do wanna collaborate, they just don't know how. Yeah. So I don't know that we're creating something new. I think we're bringing to life something that already exists in a room, and that's part of what a, a, an effective facilitator, leader, whatever we might wanna, a person of authority needs to do.
Ed O'Malley: Yeah. I, I wanna play with your definition of collaboration real quick, Kenny. And, and Susan, I know you've got questions and, and we'll get to them. But I [00:16:00] love your definition, but I'd like to offer a friendly amendment to it. All right. So I wrote down collaboration is working together with one or more to achieve a shared goal.
And my friendly amendment would be to add a, a a clause at the end. So working together with one or more to achieve a shared goal that no one party could achieve on their own.
Kenny Wilk: I like that. , That really, that's more complete.
Ed O'Malley: Well, and it, it gets to the point, the mistake people make in the 30,000 or, and beyond the 30,000 too, is that they don't need the collaboration of other people to achieve their goal. ~And,~ And, and that's a mistake. On these deep, daunting challenges related to health, you can't, you know, you ... It doesn't work to just like have a, 50% plus one majority and ram through what you want done in your, in your organization, in your company, in your community, in your [00:17:00] state. That doesn't hold long enough in order for- Mm-hmm
a collaboration or for health to really change. And even if you do get something through without collaborating, you're gonna be missing parts of the solution you needed. So it, it's, yeah, that part, like- I like that ... we need people to understand col- it's not, we're not being nice suggesting or requiring collaboration.
We're saying you won't achieve your goal without it.
Kenny Wilk: Couldn't agree more
Progress Formula Explained
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Susan Kang: So you have this formula in this book, right?
Kenny Wilk: Yes, we
Susan Kang: do. Yeah. So, so the formula is people plus good information plus healthy process equals progress. So Kenny, I'm gonna ask you some questions around this, but Ed, would you just take a couple of minutes to, uh, land this concept for us?
Ed O'Malley: Yeah, you know, and this, I learned this from one of my mentors, David Crislip, who is a, phenomenal friend, and, over the years I've, I've learned this from him so many different times. But it's pretty simple. [00:18:00] It's, it's really just an equation for progress in any situation, in a family, in an organization, in a company, in a community, in a state, beyond. When you bring the right people together, which aren't always your usual people, you know, they're, they're not your preferred people necessarily, but like when, when you bring the right people together And you then also give them access to high-quality information, which might not be the information you prefer to look at, but you, you get good high-quality information, and you also create a healthy process for their engagement.
Mm-hmm. You get those three things, the right people, good information, a healthy process, you will make progress every single time. Now, if one of those things is off, you don't make progress. You know, if you don't have the right people together, or you have the right people, and you have really good information, but you [00:19:00] have a crummy process, y- you're not gonna make progress.
Mm-hmm. So, you need those three things, and somebody, like, in the 30,000, like, it's a role of authority to think about are we tending to those three things? And when we do, my experience is you end up making progress, and when you don't, you fail to.
Susan Kang: So with that as a backdrop, Kenny, curious to learn a little bit about sort of your experiences and, you know, sort of what did creating the conditions for collaboration sort of look like for you?
Kenny Wilk: , there are literally hundreds of ideas, in the book Leading Health.
Susan Kang: Yeah.
Kenny Wilk: But I would put this formula, right people, good information, and healthy process a- a- at least in the top five, maybe the top three. There, there, there's lots of great ideas, but this is such a powerful idea.
Mm-hmm. Um, a- And , don't think because it's simple to read, a- and look at, or write down that it's simple, 'cause it's not. Mm-hmm. And, and, and that, that's what I've found out, and, and for our [00:20:00] listeners, the, the first thing I'd say is r- really dig into this. Give it some thought. Become aware. Just become aware of it, and don't necessarily think that you're gonna get it right, right out of the chute. The first time you convene, , you may have the right people, but you may not. That's okay, 'cause now you're getting started. The information part, same thing. Focusing on the process, that, that is critical, and there can certainly be some friction there. ,
Friction Means Progress
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Kenny Wilk: But getting all three of those in place, getting the folks that you have brought together to kind of understand that and accept that and know that this is the formula we're gonna use, is really kind of the major step to moving forw- Doesn't, doesn't mean it's easy.
I don't want any, I don't want any of our listeners to think it's easy. Right. It's not easy. No, it's not. Yeah. And it, and it... Actually, Ed, I would suggest wh- when you get this right, there is quite a bit of friction in the room. Yeah, yeah. There, there, [00:21:00] there's resistance. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And there can be some hard feelings, but that means you're making progress.
Ed O'Malley: Well, and, and Kenny, it's, y- yeah, when you get this right, there is friction in the room, and that's the point. It's in the room rather than being out there. So when it's in the room, when the friction is in the room, that means you, you have brought people together who think differently. That means they're looking at information that might challenge them, right?
That might challenge their preconceived notions of what do we need to do , to get more people insured, or what do we need to do to lower rates of this kind of, uh, illness, or, or whatever the health issue is, or whatever the other issue is. But when, when there's, when the friction is created, that's actually a good sign. That tell, that, that means you're doing something. Yeah, that's some data. That's some data. That feels, yeah, that's some data- Right ... that tells
Susan Kang: you you're making progress.
Friction Reveals Blind Spots
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Ed O'Malley: and if you can work that friction and kind of, like, understand it and acknowledge it and figure out how to work through it among the right people, those people are gonna do a pretty darn good [00:22:00] job of helping their people outside the room get on board. But if we create rooms of people that don't create any friction, so we create rooms of people who already think like us, who already have our same perspective, we're gonna be obliv- oblivious to the friction that exists. Mm-hmm. And how many times have we seen that, right, where so- some member of the 30,000, a well-intended mayor, you , a new member, uh, of the legislature or a new member of legislative leadership, you know, , they usher forth an idea that they think is gonna be great, and they are shocked, just shocked when other kind of groups or people oppose it, maybe even vehemently. And, like, you've done something wrong if you don't understand the opposition until that moment.
Acceptance Before Agreement
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Kenny Wilk: Yeah, and, you know, so Susan, you kinda asked , how can you best get started, you know, with collaboration, and it, it's interesting. I was hoping I might have an opportunity to share this. Yeah. So I like to, um, you know, every day I have, uh, some reflections that I read, and I have [00:23:00] different things, but yesterday was just so interesting.
I, I had a, a short reflection here that I wanna share that I think is so appropriate to what we're talking about. It's answers to arguments.
Susan Kang: Hmm.
Kenny Wilk: Okay. The answers to arguments, Goes like this: Unity doesn't begin in examining others, but in examining self. Unity begins not in demanding that others change, but in admitting that we aren't so perfect ourselves. The answers to arguments, acceptance. The first step to unity, acceptance. Not agreement, acceptance. Not unanimity, acceptance. Not negotiation, arbitration, or elaboration. Those might come later, but only after the first step, acceptance. So Susan, I r- I really can't think of a better place for all of us to remind ourselves when we come together, and, and I f- I found myself, if, if we can [00:24:00] accept, we don't have to agree. Doesn't mean you agree. We can still disagree, but I can accept your argument. I can accept your thoughts. I can accept your ideas and move forward. If I'm gonna sit there and I wanna debate and argue and try to change your mind, that can be so distracting, and it makes it really difficult to move forward.
Ed O'Malley: The idea that, you know, we're trying to get, like, acceptance. Okay, so, like, what do we need people to accept? We need people to accept that, you know, I don't know it all.
Kenny Wilk: Absolutely.
Ed O'Malley: We need people to accept, like, we, meaning, like, our team, our, group, my people, the people who think like me, like, we don't know it all.
Like, accept that. We need people to accept if we wanna make progress, we're gonna have to come together with people who think about this issue differently than us. \ if we- If people don't accept those concepts that I just rattled off based on, on what [00:25:00] you just read, this chapter will not land with them. I mean, it won't make sense about, like, why. They'll think what we're doing is kind of just promoting collaboration because it's all, it's good to, you know, hold hands and, and work together and... That's not what we're talking about. We're, we're talking about solving problems, but if you don't accept some of those first things, you're, you're not gonna land this idea.
Kenny Wilk: You know, and what I have found, Ed, is, is that oftentimes when you're in a setting like that, , you know, you can feel the temperature rising and you're, you can feel, boy, you wanna argue. But if you can hit that point where I just accept-
Ed O'Malley: Yeah ...
Kenny Wilk: where, it, it's almost a, it's a form of a peace that comes over you.
And, and- Yeah ... now you're ready to move on.
Ed O'Malley: Yeah.
Kenny Wilk: You know? Yeah, yeah. You know?
It,
Compromise Versus Collaboration
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Susan Kang: So, hey, I'm, this is making me think about this notion this book, you know, members of the 30,000 have to give up some control, and for me, part of what arises in my head is the word compromise. So I'm curious to know the relationship of that concept with accepting the conditions that you have to work under [00:26:00] and, that and the formula and, um, how all of those things, work together. It's a little bit of a bigger question than I intended to ask, but okay. What's the difference between compromise- Great, great. It's a great question ... yeah, yeah.
Kenny Wilk: Let's talk about in those situations w- where there's not necessarily agreement- Mm-hmm ... where, where there can be conflict. To get to acceptance, I, you know, I know we're always hesitant to use the word compromise. I'm not. I actually think compromise is a good word, and I, I believe you do have to compromise with yourself to reach some level- Yeah
of acceptance. Yeah. Yeah. , And that's okay. A- and it doesn't necessarily mean that you've changed your mind. It just means that you've accepted some things- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm ... which allows you to move on. But I, Susan, I think that's a, that's a, that's a great question.
Ed O'Malley: what I'm playing with, with your question, Susan, is I, I think compromise is often a part of collaboration, [00:27:00] but it's, not the final part.
It's not the end of the game. And I think there are sometimes compromises that really don't involve collaboration. You know, they, they... Like, I, I want X, you want Y. I end... And we have to agree on something. I end up agreeing to X minus part of X, and you end up agreeing to Y minus part of Y.
Mm-hmm. And we both get some of what we wanted, but not all of what we wanted. Mm-hmm. I think that's compromise. I think with collaboration, what happens is you end up creating a whole that is greater than the sum of the parts. You end up creating something of value to you-
Susan Kang: Mm-hmm
Ed O'Malley: that it's like I wanted X, and now I'm... I, realize, because of the collaboration, that X and Y together, even if the X isn't the same X I came in with in this conversation, creates something better than the original thing I thought I wanted. More [00:28:00] lasting, more energizing. And- Okay ... you know, so like I end up actually not just with compromise, I agreed to have a little less of what I thought I wanted. I end up feeling like we're in a totally better place than we would've been if w- I just got X. Does that make sense?
Susan Kang: Oh, that's in part 'cause I think what, to Kenny's point, it's because you're able to compromise with yourself. Yeah. And you, you agree, you accept that what has come out in the final analysis is better than what you thought you wanted going into this collaborative process.
Yeah, you
Ed O'Malley: know, this episode, we are getting pretty deep on this- ... idea of- Just taking a dive. We're taking a dive, but I, I think what we're getting at, and this applies, I think, throughout the section of the book, this part of the book, but there's something about, like, releasing expectation. There's something about, , accepting that, you know, , , our own ego might sometimes drive us- Right
in ways that isn't useful. I mean, we're, we're touching on some deep aspects of, philosophy and [00:29:00] spirituality this episode, but, it feels right, but I, I just wanna acknowledge that.
Rowboat And Sail Metaphor
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Kenny Wilk: You know, so I like to, try to think of pictures or, or, or an image or- Yeah ... something to bring something to life, and, and sometimes I can, sometimes I can't.
I don't think this is a necessarily great analogy, but it may- maybe might help some of our listeners a little bit. , Imagine a rowboat, and Ed goes down, and Ed's gonna row, and we pick a destination that's a long way off. But I get nine other people And I, I get 10 people in the boat, if we collaborate, the 10 of us, and we all know where we're gonna go, and we all work, we can call it teamwork- Mm-hmm
we can call it collab- teamwork and collaboration really , are interchangeable. But imagine the one person trying to keep up with the 10. And even if the 10 aren't perfectly synced, if they have the shared objective and they're at least rowing in the same direction, they might not [00:30:00] end up in the exact spot they wanna go, but they're sure gonna get there before the individual does. So I, I think that's... Now, did it take more time to get the 10 people in the boat, get them lined up, get them organized? G- who's... Absolutely. Yeah. But, you know, at the end of the trip, the 10 are probably gonna be ahead of the one.
Ed O'Malley: So let's just keep playing with this. This is a great picture. , So yeah, so i- imagine there is somebody who's the captain of that boat, right? And that captain realizes, "You know what? , Rather than just one rower, we need 10. So I'm gonna use my authority. I'm gonna incentivize nine more people to start rowing, and I'm gonna tell them what direction to row."
That's great, right? I agree with you. That, they're gonna get there faster Now, to keep this going though, imagine if that, that captain, that, that person in authority on that boat said, "You know, I know we'll get there faster with us all rowing, but I just, I'm just curious if there are any knowledge or expertise among these 10 [00:31:00] that might help us get there even faster." And imagine if one of those 10, , was a seam- seamstress in a former life and knew a lot about fabric, right? And maybe another one was a meteorologist and knew a lot about wind patterns. And imagine if they just took a little time before they jumped to solving the problem, and that person in authority got people talking about, "Look, we know one way we can get across this lake, sea, is to all row.
What else comes to mind that could help us go even faster?" And imagine if they invented the idea of a sail, and they not only get across faster, but they use a lot less energy that they can then expend on something else. Like, that's collaboration. That's
collaboration.
Susan Kang: I, I, I- That's awesome ... I love the image.
I, I think, wow, that visual, thank you to both of you, the visual, I think, that will stick in people's minds, and I think that's... I mean, that's really awesome. Okay.
Practical Steps To Spark Collaboration
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Susan Kang: Now I'm gonna bring it down to the practical level here. Mm. Okay? 'Cause I think it's time for us to- Yeah, susan always does that.
Ed O'Malley: Yeah.
Susan Kang: Okay, I'm just saying, look, I- Susan,
Ed O'Malley: we kind of like living in the clouds
Susan Kang: over here a bit, you know? Yeah, well, we're gonna, we're [00:32:00] gonna do, we're gonna- Okay ... so this is what we're gonna do. Kenny, what's one practical step that members of the 30,000, right, can do to really actually, instead of just encouraging collaboration, to really create the conditions to make it happen?
Kenny Wilk: You know, I, , I'm gonna take the question and, and the challenge a little bit different. Uh- Okay. If you don't have a copy of the book- I want you to encourage to get the book, and to read the book, and to use the book. And frankly, I, I wanna make sure the readers understand, I, I go back to the book, often. And, I, I've made more trips around the sun, than many of our listeners.
I've got 40-plus years of experience, and, ha- had a lot of wonderful things, a lot of challenges, and I just find it interesting. I still learn, Susan. I still pick up new ideas every time I open the book and read it. One of the best things the listeners can do, if you've not read the book, [00:33:00] get the book, look for the ideas. Now, it's applied to health, but for all the listeners, don't think it's just about health. It really is about leadership.
Ed O'Malley: Yeah, it's really, I was outside of the state recently speaking, and the audience was familiar with some of the other books that I've, I've helped write, and they were asking about this book in relationship to the others. And I talked about the other ones, you know, Your Leadership Edge, which really breaks down what does the exercise of leadership look like, like move by move. Uh, When Everyone Leads, which is really making the case that leadership and authority are two totally different things. And with this book, I said, "This book is really saying, yeah, leadership and authority are two different things. And for those who have authority, like, this is what we need from them." Like, these nine mindsets, especially in part three of this book, that's what you need from people in, in authority. Um.
Kenny Wilk: Yeah. Now, I'm, I'm gonna do one other thing, and, uh, Ed doesn't know this 'cause I didn't get a chance to tell him. But, but I did check with your staff, and they s- [00:34:00] said it would be okay. So for those of us that have read the book, for those of us that have read the book, I, , I know KHF will send the book to people that we recommend. , And I've decided I'm, I'm gonna t- I'm gonna start with 10 people that I know have not read the book.
Susan Kang: Mm-hmm.
Kenny Wilk: I'm gonna identify those 10 people. I'm gonna write a personal note to include with the book- Ooh ... so that when they get the book, they know that I have read the book- That's great ... and I strongly recommend that they read the book. So I wanna encourage our listeners, you don't have to do 10, but could you do five? Could you do a couple? Yeah. But it, once you read the book, find some other folks in your life, in, whether it be your personal life or your professional life, and pass it along
Susan Kang: Well, Kenny, I didn't think it was gonna be such an endorsement of the book, but thank you.
I mean, 'cause I know this comes from a, a place in your heart. It does, yes. You know, I know, and I know how much you love it, and I love that you wanna share your love for this book and its value with so many people. So I, th- [00:35:00] not expecting this, but this is awesome. Thank you so much for that en- endorsement, but what's one practical... I wanna circle back to that question that I asked. You know, what's the, what is the one practical step that you would recommend?
Kenny Wilk: Well, I, I, I'll, I'll, I'll just return to, to the book.
Susan Kang: Mm-hmm.
Kenny Wilk: And I'd, I'd go right to the chapter on collaboration.
Susan Kang: Okay.
Kenny Wilk: Just, just,
Susan Kang: just do that. So share the book.
Kenny Wilk: Share the book.
Susan Kang: Okay. Awesome.
Ed O'Malley: \
Ask The Right Questions
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Ed O'Malley: I wanna add something on this, on, on the practical side. So I've seen this work so many times. If you're somebody in authority, and you're in a situation, and you're talking about a tough problem, if you just get people talking about that formula, the right people- Mm-hmm
the right information, and a healthy process. If you just ask questions like, "Well, who, who are all the right people we need in this conversation? Do we have all the right people we need?" And by the way, a great question is, if the people we have involved all agree- Do we have enough of the right people to make sure we can then [00:36:00] go do?
Susan Kang: Mm-hmm.
Ed O'Malley: And if the answer is no, then you don't have all the right people, right? So just asking questions. What, what kind of information do we need before we get these people working this problem? What kind of information do we need to make sure they have access to? Just asking questions. What should our process be, right?
So many, especially the more people rise up in organizations, oftentimes the less they feel like they need to pay attention to process. You know, what kind of process should we use- Yeah ... to, to work this issue, to solve this problem?
Susan Kang: And that's gonna be our next episode, around process- Oh, that's right ... and structure.
I'm really excited about that one. That's right.
Ed O'Malley: That's, yeah, Kenny will join us for that one too.
Susan Kang: Yeah, yeah.
Ed O'Malley: All right. What a great conversation we've had. Looking
Kenny Wilk: forward to that discussion.
Susan Kang: Awesome.
Takeaways And Next Chapter
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Susan Kang: So I think it's, you know, so I think this, we come to the part where, you know, everyone talks about their takeaways a little bit, right?
So I'm gonna ask our listeners to think of one practical step that you can take this week to simply move, e- to, to move from encouraging collaboration to actually creating it. What's [00:37:00] one step? You know, think about the formula that Ed just talked about. So that is what I encourage our listeners to do.
A-
Kenny Wilk: and Susan, I wanna encourage all of our folks, uh, to, to think about creating and encouraging collaboration. I don't, I don't think it's an o- Mm, I love it ... either/or. Okay. I think it's both. But, but I, I really like the concept of focusing on creating and encouraging collaboration.
Susan Kang: Love it.
Ed O'Malley: Yeah. I, I think for me, I mean, this episode has done some powerful things for me in terms of, like, philosophically my brain is going down different kinda trails I wasn't expecting.
I mean, the great conversation we had about acceptance and how this is really, to really understand this chapter, it, we're in essence saying we have to accept we're not enough. We have to accept we don't know the way forward. And so I think what my takeaway is for listeners is to understand the difference [00:38:00] between challenges that r- really you do have enough information, you don't need to collaborate on, you just need to go solve, and the types of challenges that need collaboration.
, And, you know, in another, episode we talked about technical versus adaptive challenges. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. That's a clue, if it's technical versus it's adaptive. When it's adaptive, you need this, and you're gonna need to set your ego aside, and you're gonna have to accept what you need to accept in order to get to unity.
That's what's the biggest thing on my
Susan Kang: mind. Wow. Thank you so much, Kenny- You bet ... for spending time with us today. You bet. So excited to have you. And then, uh, you know, and then we get to see you again for the next episode. I
Kenny Wilk: can't wait.
Susan Kang: Yay.
Ed O'Malley: Thanks everybody for joining us for this episode. Next time we'll be talking about chapter number 16. Kenny will be with us again. We'll be talking about valuing process and structure. It's one of the wonkiest chapters in the book. It actually was my favorite one to write, and I can't wait to dig into it with everybody. Till next time, [00:39:00] everybody. Thanks so much.