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How many times have you tried to understand ADHD...and were left feeling more misunderstood? We get it and we're here to help you build a shiny new relationship with ADHD. We are two therapists (David Kessler & Isabelle Richards) who not only work with people with ADHD, but we also have ADHD ourselves and have been where you are. Every other week on Something Shiny, you'll hear (real) vulnerable conversations, truth bombs from the world of psychology, and have WHOA moments that leave you feeling seen, understood, and...dare we say...knowing you are something shiny, just as you are.
Something Shiny: ADHD!
What Your ADHD Brain Needs When Loss Finally Catches Up
Drop Date: Wednesday, June 17, 2026
*this episode transcription was auto-generated and might contain errors
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ISABELLE RICHARDS: [00:00:00] Hello, I'm Isabelle, she, her, hers.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: And I'm David, he, him, his.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: And we're two therapists with ADHD who sit down to have some chats about ADHD. We can't promise we'll stay on topic- Or be professional Or even remotely mature. But we can promise that you'll end up looking at you or your loved one's beautiful neurodivergent brain in a shiny new way.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: This is not a therapy session. This is Something Shiny.
DAVID KESSLER: I love it. Can this just be the intro of you saying that and me freaking out about how amazing it is?
ISABELLE RICHARDS: So without further ado, welcome to Something Shiny.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: All right. Today, we're picking back up from our last conversation about ADHD and grief. Uh, we were talking a lot about the shame that I know I carry and a lot of us carry when it comes to feeling like we're not grieving the way we're supposed to. [00:01:00] And David, you said something I haven't been able to stop thinking about since we recorded it.
DAVID KESSLER: Yeah. I think what I was really getting into is that grief is something that's most often felt in the future. Like, we, we think that we should feel grief immediately. We think that there are certain feelings that should happen, you know, when, when life tells us to, like at the funeral or wherever. But I think, you know, grief is most often felt in those future moments you can't share.
DAVID KESSLER: You know, the graduation when you look across and you don't see the person there. Mm. Or major life achievement number three, right, and they're not cheering you on, or they never knew about the podcast you started or the book you wrote. Those moments you can't share, that's when I think you feel, you, you really feel grief.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Oh, just to pause on that, David. Yes. And I think there's, um, this conversation you're about to hear continues to talk about how grief arrives when it does for ADHD brains, and also how you express it has nothing to do with how deeply you [00:02:00] feel it.
DAVID KESSLER: Yeah, I mean, it's, it's really not about fighting it. Uh, it...
DAVID KESSLER: You're, you're not gonna win that battle. I think that this is really about giving grief a time and a place, and allowing yourself to feel the things you need to feel. Make room in those future moments to have those feelings in those moments. I think that's how we keep people with you and honor the holes that have been created.
DAVID KESSLER: Now, let's get into this.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: I know I have gotten a lot of feedback about not expressing the emotion that people would expect of me. Like, I know that I've been taught to say I'm nervous about things. I mean this. Like, I will say to someone, "I'm nervous," even if I'm not, because I'm like, "I'm supposed to be nervous at this point." Even if some things I'm like, "Oh yeah, that's n- actually weirdly not nerve-wracking to me at all."
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Like, um, but the same with sadness. And it's interesting when you say, like, your tears are not ... You're, how you're expressing your sadness is in no way actually connected [00:03:00] to the depths or the breadth or the, like, width of the feelings you have, right? Because yeah, like for example, I also for a really long time, any time I was even approaching conflict, I would burst into tears.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: And I still do, like, for the most part. I'm learning it's a bit of, like, a sensory overload thing, too. Yeah. Where it's like I have too many messages hitting my brain, and I'm so scared, and I just start crying, and then that helps me feel better. So I think I've like, you know, like, in a weird way, the crying helps me feel better but, like, it doesn't help the situation.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Although, I guess it doesn't hurt it, but you know, it is what it is. So, like, I can't tell you how many times my tears have been mistaken for sadness, when actually what's happening is I'm very confused, and I'm very scared that I won't be able to be understood, let's say. And yeah, it is the future shared moment.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: It hits you like a wave- So hard ... when you don't expect it, and then ... I mean, truthfully, a lot of times I think I just kinda sit quietly with it. You know? Like, I don't know that I'm, like, emoting, but that doesn't mean I'm not [00:04:00] feeling it.
DAVID KESSLER: Yeah. But yes, like, what you're saying makes a lot of sense. I mean-
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Mm-hmm
DAVID KESSLER: my brother and I are incredibly close. Uh, were incredibly close. He's passed. And we would talk all the time, and he specializes in, like, all these really complex things. And so it was really strange that, like, the world catches on fire, there's a, there's, like, conflict in other countries, there's war breaking out all over the world, and like, everyone's really sad.
DAVID KESSLER: I went, "Oh, I really miss my brother." Right? Because it's a future moment where I would've proce- I would've called him and like, "What do you think's going on with this person? And why do you think that's happening?" And he would be like, he would have all these opinions because it's actually what he studied.
DAVID KESSLER: Oh. But I couldn't have felt that loss in that moment. You know? Or I, or I switch back to, like, when I was very young or, you know, teenager, my best friend who I grew up with since, like, second grade, his mother died. And we were at his funeral, or his mother's funeral, and I could not stop crying. I mean, like, I sat down and, like, hiccup cried for I don't even
DAVID KESSLER: I don't know how long the ceremony was. [00:05:00] So, like, whoever has the right memory, I agree with you. If it was five minutes, it was five minutes. If it was 45 minutes, it was 45 minutes. But I cried the entire time. Mm-hmm. My friend didn't. And it wasn't like he didn't cry the whole time. He cried, he had, like, I would say normal human emotional responses in that moment, right?
DAVID KESSLER: Mm-hmm. I didn't stop hiccup crying for 45 minutes If someone were to walk up to me afterwards and say, "You obviously cared more about that person's mother than that person did," I would've disagreed with them and fought them to the grave. Oh, yeah. And so I know empirically the amount that you cry or don't cry is not connected to your feelings.
DAVID KESSLER: It could be.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Yeah.
DAVID KESSLER: But I will never, like, I won't... I can't tell you how many people go like, "I feel like I should've cried in that moment." You know, when they're, they're talking about, like, the birth or the death of, you know, whatever.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Yeah.
DAVID KESSLER: And I just think, like, you didn't, because it didn't, it, you didn't, you don't have to.
DAVID KESSLER: So no one out there feel like you have to cry, and if you want to, go ahead.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Oh, David, that is, I mean, [00:06:00] what... Yes, thank you. On behalf of myself at least, and I'm sure every other human listening nodding vehemently right now, like, yes, thank you. Like, I actually wanna cry now because I feel so seen. Or I feel so, like, given permission to just not fake it or something, or, like, acknowledge it and, and not feel judged by it, myself included.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Wow, okay. 'Cause we don't talk about this. I mean, and side note, do, do you think, and this is, like, a weird tangent my brain just burped out it feels like, but, like, do you think it has to do with, like, our present moment time agnosia stuff? Like, put it this way, like, I, I'm so, I feel like I'm so in the moment.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: You're right, like, that in the moment of, like, a service or a funeral or even the moment I'm getting distressing news, I also will nervously laugh a lot. Like, I laugh a lot when I'm being told something awful. Like, I'll just start laughing hysterically sometimes, and I'm like, "I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry," and that makes it worse, you know?
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Like, so to the point I go, "I'm so sorry." I, [00:07:00] I can, like, have a really weird reaction. I think it's just nervousness. I don't know what else to do with it. But the experience of knowing that there is a Like yeah, like it will hit me in a present moment, so grief is not... Like grief is that moment, in that moment is the grief, not the moment that I think I'm supposed to have the grief.
DAVID KESSLER: I think grief and mourning are things that slowly slam into you like waves over time. They're not programmed with the service.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Yeah. I like, I kinda wonder, like, okay, I've heard this, this term, and I don't know if this makes sense 'cause, like, the thing, going back to the thing you said about, like, the objects, right?
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Or, like, why we don't finish a project, why it brings up grief. I also think about, like, you know, sometimes therapeutically. You know, like as therapists we have to say goodbye a lot, in a good way. Like, we say goodbye when someone, client is, feels really good about the work you did and it's time to move on, you know?
ISABELLE RICHARDS: They're, like, kinda, like, topped up. Sometimes it's sudden and you never hear from a person, and but, you know, [00:08:00] like... And so it's like, like put this way, I think we get really used to, or at least I've gotten really used to feeling, like, kinda like I'm the one being left behind, you know? And someone else is, like, walking on, you know?
ISABELLE RICHARDS: And I think it's beautiful. I always picture everyone on a carousel for some reason or, like, on a amusement park. I don't know, I just picture, like, being able to see them in an amusement park having the best day with everyone they love, and then I always go, like, "Yeah, they're g- they're okay." That's, like, always where I go.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: I don't know why. Maybe I want everyone-
DAVID KESSLER: Oh, my God. No, wait. They all ride off in the sunset on a horse up a hill and, like, at the very top of the hill they all wave at me and their horse, like, goes on their back legs and then it, like, gallops away. That's how I see everyone when they graduate or leave.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Really?
DAVID KESSLER: 100%, yes.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Oh, my gosh. Okay, mine has horses too 'cause the carousel is a, like, old school horse one. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
DAVID KESSLER: They're, they're, they're, they're like ba-ba-ba.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Okay, now I'm gonna cry 'cause I was just thinking about it. That is so beautiful. And it's kinda, like, such a private thing, right? 'Cause it's, like, not about us at all in the moment, but it is, but it isn't.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: [00:09:00] And I don't know, like that idea that, like, you don't know until later. Asynchronous processing is another idea that comes into my brain with
DAVID KESSLER: all this. W- when you say, "I don't know," and you're grabbing your forehead, what are you, what are you actually saying when you say, "I do- I don't know"?
ISABELLE RICHARDS: I guess, like, I don't know.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Like, it's, it's like, okay, this is, like, where maybe I'm getting very meta. But, like, it, 'cause it's, like, kinda possible... I don't, this is where my head's going. You know, like, when you're, like, in a crowded room but you can feel completely alone 'cause, like, you're just not connected to anybody? And then conversely you can be completely a stranger to everyone.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Like, you can be traveling or you could be somewhere and you can have this feeling of, like, I'm connected to everything. And I don't mean even on, like, a spiritual level, I just mean, like, it feels very, like, oh, I feel a part of humanity or something. I don't know. It's like a collective mm. It's like that is not dependent on the physical presence- Of a object or person.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: I guess like, in my [00:10:00] head I'm like, is it re- like the same way you're like, okay, the meaning making is in you, the grief process is all you with you kind of. I don't know where I just went. I'm gonna stop myself.
DAVID KESSLER: I feel like, I feel like what's really hard, and I don't know if I have this right. There's so many people that know way more about grief than I do, so I'll- we're just, we're middling, we're muddling through it and we're just- Oh,
ISABELLE RICHARDS: yeah, 100%.
DAVID KESSLER: But I feel like there's, there's like, when we think about relations with other people, we're ta- like, I think about this a little bit like planets. You know? Like, I'm a planet and you're a planet and like we're all in this solar system, we're all kinda like, like, like boopin' around each other and, and because of massive amounts of gravity and like stuff, like we don't, we don't really slam into each other, right?
DAVID KESSLER: Like, we just kinda like, we boop around. And I think grief is what happens when one of the planets disappears or slams into you and you merge with it. Mm. And so the constellations around you are always gonna be different. They're never the same. You know, I'm trying to think about like [00:11:00] self-psychology.
DAVID KESSLER: It's like we can be absorbed by our grief. Mm. We can neglect our grief. We can try to fight our grief. There's a selfish and inherent nature to grief that is important and shouldn't be shamed. It's a very complicated thing, and I think we can feel grief Around things that aren't really important people dying.
DAVID KESSLER: And that's the important thing that I wanna make... 'Cause I don't, I think most people when they hear me say grief, they go like, "Oh, I'm thinking about dogs, cats, birds, turtles, people." Like, you know, like they're thinking about living things. And I wanna be clear, like there's a significant aspect of grief attached to graduating from high school, graduating from college, leaving a job.
DAVID KESSLER: Moving. Moving. And it's like, it, it's, it's a great thing that we moved and this is super awesome, but like your kitchen isn't the same and that's kinda sad, right? Yeah. There's, there, there are ways to sit with it. And I, I, I don't know. I j- I think that grief in and of itself, like it's a process that you, you have to engage in if you want to be connected to people.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Yeah. It's like the... [00:12:00] I don't know if this is like, again, going too deep, but two things that come into my mind. One is like, okay, I don't even, I think it was a philosophy course in college, right? Like it was moral reasoning. Um, it was a requirement to graduate. You have to take one of these classes. And w- I think it was my TA or somebody.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: We w- w- again, we were talking philosophy. It was so interesting. But I don't even remember who said this or how, so I'll look it up later maybe. But it said something like, "A friend is someone you agree to mourn if they die before you." Like, it's like the idea that a friendship, like choosing to be in relationship with someone is saying, "I will miss you when you're gone."
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Like, it's built into the wiring of what it means to connect to a person is to like ag- like, uh, again, maybe it's the stoics or something, I don't know. But it's like you're already acknowledging existentially that like if you survive me, you will, you will miss me, and if I survive you, I will miss you.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: It's like almost like that's the [00:13:00] hidden bond or something. And someone said that and it always stayed with me. Beautiful. And then the other thing that always stays with me is the idea that there's like a village somewhere where... And it's, I wanna say it's like maybe in Canada or something. I don't know.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: But there's a village somewhere that's small enough, it's a small enough village, and they practice this ritual that whenever a member of any of the villager's families dies Every single person changes something in their yard. So the idea is like, or in their external, their, their house. So like for, like, like they break something, they take something off, they put a new thing in, and the idea is that they're trying to reflect back, like the thing you said about the constellations, that grief is like when, it's like there's a black hole where there used to be a planet, you know?
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Or like a, a sun. They're acknowledging that like your life is forever changed at all, like instantly, but we wanna mirror [00:14:00] back to you that we, we are trying to like mirror that back, that we wanna acknowledge.
DAVID KESSLER: That is a weird thing. I- if anyone's like, uh, it's because like I, you know, going through loss and grief, it's like going through myself, I remember like after my father died, I remember walking outside and like a pizza delivery car drove by, and I'm like, "I can't believe they're working today."
DAVID KESSLER: Right? Like how does this world keep going? And it does.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Yeah.
DAVID KESSLER: And, and I think it's, that's a cool thing about that community where it's like they're showing that they're all changed They're showing that they're not the same as they were before. That's interesting.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Yeah, yeah.
DAVID KESSLER: N- now the thing that I, I wanna think about or maybe just speak out loud is, like, being neurodivergent, you know, ADHD in the context of grief and loss, there's lots of different roles that people can jump into, um, right?
DAVID KESSLER: Like, if you've seen one person with ADHD, you've seen one person with ADHD, but we have very similar brains, so that's what I sit with and the com- ... and the complexity of it, right? Like-
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Yeah ...
DAVID KESSLER: I often, around traumatic loss, I often, like, focus on other people and what I can do to take care of them. Mm-hmm. [00:15:00] And so I'm often like, "Do you need something else to drink?"
DAVID KESSLER: Or, "Let me go get that for you," or, "Don't stand up," or, "Let, let me ask you some questions. You're looking alone." Or my, my constellation, it's like, it's, it's kinda great. Like, I start attending to everyone else. Mm-hmm. And what I notice about that, and I think, you know, other, other neurodiverse ADHDers out there are probably nodding, but, like, all of a sudden when all the people are gone, that's when you have to sit with it for the first time.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Oh, heck yeah. Oh, that... I felt that in my bones.
DAVID KESSLER: Yeah.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Yeah, you're not wrong. Yeah, like, it sneaks up in the quiet, silent, 2:00 AM wake-up time.
DAVID KESSLER: Yes.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Yeah. 'Cause yeah, you're so right. I've, I've heard the term, and I don't wanna co-opt it, but, like, the idea of a practical griever or someone who's like... I, yeah, like, I similarly, when someone's going through it, I get extremely practical and I'm like, "Okay, what are the 10 things you need to do?
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Okay, yes, I'll bring you food." Yeah, exactly what you're saying. I do the same thing, and I'm like, "Okay, check, check, check, check, check. I'm gonna go clean your house. Do you need that? Okay, great." I- it's like as long as I feel like I can stay moving, you know, like, I can, [00:16:00] like, almost, like, make sure everything around me is okay.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Yeah, it is very external, other person focused. And then, yeah, it's like it'll hit me when I'm on a walk by myself and I'd like... I- to be fair, okay, I... My, my old therapist said this, and I really, really appreciated it 'cause we were clocking that I was doing that a lot, uh, around some, I'll say, ambiguous losses.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: 'Cause side note, that's another thing too is, like, the thing you were saying where grief is not just big people in your life or, you know, pets in your life, like, members of your family. Like, it's also, like, yeah, like, for me, there's so mu- there's still so much grief around mo- moving away from Chicago, like, where, you know, I spent so many of the lovely years, and the change and the loss.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: It's like any change begets grief, right? And we were noticing, or I was noticing, she was very kindly pointing out, that I was doing a great job of, like, all that practical stuff, and I was finding it really hard to allow for myself to [00:17:00] just be quiet, right? So she's like, "What if you make a date with your grief?"
ISABELLE RICHARDS: So once a week, I would have to make a date with my grief, again, 'cause I'm a rule follower, and I was like, "Absolutely, I have to do this now. This is now, you know, the, the thing I have to follow." So I got in the habit of, like, going on a walk in nature because I felt it was private enough. You know, like, not...
ISABELLE RICHARDS: You say hi to people on the, the walk, but it wasn't a very crowded area. And, and then weirdly, because I did that enough, I feel like that now kicks in when I'm in nature. Like, I'll always have this like very like bittersweet kind of, "Ah, yeah." But it's like it got easier once I practiced it, maybe 'cause I was still physically moving, too.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: And then that helped me with my 2:00 AM wake-ups 'cause I knew that I wasn't just shoving it down. And sometimes with the 2:00 AM I'd go, "Okay, hey, 2:00 AM wake up. I, I made space for you already." Like, I'd literally talk to it, like almost like, "Hey," in my head. Like, "Okay, I'll talk to you later. I made a date with you, but I do need my [00:18:00] sleep tonight.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: So like, let's help with that."
DAVID KESSLER: I love it.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: I don't know if that makes sense
DAVID KESSLER: or not. Well, listen, you can negotiate when you can.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: That's true.
DAVID KESSLER: Yeah.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: That's true. But yeah, what do you do with that, then, like when it hits?
DAVID KESSLER: Grief?
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Yeah, or grief or just like when it's almost like things catch up to you when you're quiet, but then because of that it's hard for you to be quiet.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: I love this question. You have such an amazing, like, smile right now. Everyone listening, David's like, "Oh." Like, it felt like-
DAVID KESSLER: It's so real. I think that it's very hard to transition to nothingness. We have loud voices, and I think often we're going from a cacophony to noth- nothingness, and like that's gonna take our nervous system some work.
DAVID KESSLER: Like, that is going to be activating. Like, we will probably have some things going in our mind. So I think minding transitions is really important. However, we're sophisticated beings, and we can't really, like, pull one over on ourselves. And so I think it has to do with the amount that you're dancing with Nora and the [00:19:00] ability that you have to contextualize the grief process and normalize it.
DAVID KESSLER: So what I mean by that is it's like have you done the things you've needed to do to take care of yourself today? That's important. That's Nora. 'Cause Nora's like, "You, you know, your, your house is clean. You're doing great." Like, whatever it is, like if you're doing that kind of stuff. And I think the other piece is we tend to wrestle these, like, grief feelings or these, like, sad feelings when they come in.
DAVID KESSLER: We're not, like, letting them just come in and r- like, we're, we're not letting 'em move like bison, right? We're trying to wrestle them like a bear. I don't know why I would ever even wrestle a bear. But like, it's, it's not gonna go well. They're gonna bite. Like, I'm gonna lose, right?
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Mm-hmm.
DAVID KESSLER: It's like, "I don't wanna feel this.
DAVID KESSLER: I shouldn't feel this. This is not what I want. I don't have time for this, not right now." Like, all of those thoughts are us wrestling with the bear. And I think the way I sit with grief is like, "Oh, really? I guess, yeah, that makes sense. I miss this person for this reason, and this is a moment when I would've been with them, and this is a place where I would've done...
DAVID KESSLER: It would've felt this way, and that makes sense why I'm feeling [00:20:00] so low. How long do I wanna feel like this? I'm gonna sit here for like 15 minutes. Then what am I gonna do? All right, in 15 minutes I'm gonna get up, I'm gonna turn on Dungeon Crawler Carl, I'm gonna start listening to an audiobook, and I'm gonna go for a walk.
DAVID KESSLER: I don't think I want to, but I'm gonna make myself. Okay." And then I set a timer.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Oh. Okay. I really, really like this. First off, I love... Okay, like this has happened to me in therapy. I imagine this happens. I- this happens to me with podcasts. Like, when I hear someone, like you just said that, I will probably keep your voice in my head saying that now.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Like, I ha- I have this grip now. Like, yes, what I can say to myself. I love how you were, like, very warm and also kinda neutral, like it is what it is. We're not pretending it isn't, and we're actually giving ourselves credit for, like, making sense to ourselves. Yeah. And that's different than having to explain yourself to someone else, right?
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Like, oh, this is a very personal moment. This is a very personal understanding. [00:21:00] I can make sense to myself And I'm gonna give myself space, but I'm also going to almost like plan for the next transition.
DAVID KESSLER: Yes.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Which creates a duration measure, which maybe makes it more tolerable.
DAVID KESSLER: Well, it gives you a boundary.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Yeah.
DAVID KESSLER: I've done this. I didn't just run from it. I sat in it. I think w- when- for me, I feel better when things have a time and a place, 'cause it can start creeping in, like Tuesday night at 10:00 it's like, "Did you pack the backpack that you were..." And I'll stop it. "No, I'm doing that on Friday. I don't wanna think about it until Friday."
DAVID KESSLER: "But the-" "Not till Friday." "But the-" "Not till Friday." And the fact that I have that date and time on Friday lets me fight that weird little voice that keeps popping up, whereas if I didn't have that, I wouldn't. I'd be like, "Well, w- not right now, I'm too comfortable." Like, "You're always comfortable." Like, the voice is insidiously evil.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: That's the voice, side note, I think that's the voice I was talking to when I'm like, "I made time for you, like, later this week." Ah. I mean, wow, I don't, I don't know where I thought this was gonna go, but I was not expecting us to [00:22:00] be talking about this in this way, and I'm really, like... It feels like I opened, like a side door in my brain is open.
DAVID KESSLER: Like, like we're all like, let's talk about some b- like, this is not where I thought we would be either, and this is kind of amazing. Yeah. Also, can I like, can I like sidebar and go to a total different direction and just like humble, humble brag about us for a second?
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Yeah, yeah.
DAVID KESSLER: I'm sure people will know or do know or have known or what...
DAVID KESSLER: We have new mics. Yeah. We have worked on our studio. Mm-hmm. We have reduced echo. Your... Y- you look amazing. You got all these, like, cool sound acoustic things all over you. We upgraded our mics, and so yes, this has been an audio glow-up, and I'm very excited about it.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: I know. I hope you guys can hear it. Um, our production value is, is, uh, courtesy of none other than the Bobby Richa.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Thank you so much, good sir. Thank you, buddy. And of course you, David, and my con- collective effort. But yeah, I'm, I'm excited 'cause it's... Well, one, I gotta admit it is lovely to hear, like [00:23:00] the, the timber, the timbre, the, your... Like, I love hearing your voice through the, the headphones now. I'm like, "Oh, this is nice.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: I feel like you're in the room. This is so cool." And also... Okay, and this is like not nothing, I think, 'cause it does connect to a bit of what we were just talking about, where like there's a part of me that is, like, I feel like I'm trying to step into like what this podcast has meant for me more and also what I think it has meant for, I mean, my gratitude.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: I cannot stop being like so grateful and also realizing like, I feel... Like, that, the thing you said earlier about like we don't want opportunities or responsibilities to turn into obligations. For me to ask for help 'cause for a really long time it was, it was kind of me just being like, and, and I say in the best way, I volunteered.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: It was a very consensual, willing arrangement, but I was like, "I'll figure it out. I got this. I got this." And it's been several [00:24:00] years in now and I'm like, "You know, if I would've loved doing that part of this work," right, like for the, the technical stuff, I think I would've picked up on it by now. Mm-hmm. So it's actually kind of a really cool exercise in going like, "You know what?
ISABELLE RICHARDS: I actually don't... This is not my jam, and it's okay that someone else knows way more and can help and make it even better."
DAVID KESSLER: Oh, let me, let me, let me break it on down.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Yeah.
DAVID KESSLER: You, Isabelle, have been learning how to do all of this stuff on the fly while we've been doing this in terms of editing audio stuff, like show notes, all of that.
DAVID KESSLER: And, and we had a meeting- Oh, yeah ... where we, we brought on board someone to do- Mm-hmm ... uh, like, all of our production and managerial stuff, and we're incredibly grateful to have Bobby Richards here. Mm-hmm. Um, and yeah, one thing you learned, Isabelle, is you don't like doing a lot of this stuff.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: No. I adore talking to you.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: I adore- That's what I like ... thinking about these things. I love writing about it. I love thinking about it. That's the part I like. Um- Me three ... the clicking on the buttons and then [00:25:00] having to click on a lot of buttons in rapid succession and then doing that for hours at a time, not my jam.
DAVID KESSLER: Well, you know whose jam it is?
ISABELLE RICHARDS: It's Bobby's jam.
DAVID KESSLER: It's Bobby's jam. It's so- So, like, we just gave Bobby a case of jam.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Yeah, total. Total. I mean, and, and it is like, it is... It does also make me go, like, okay, and this is a weird way to segue, but it is also, like, another way grief can show up sometimes, if that makes any sense, is it's like... And I think about, like, that idea that nostalgia, right, is like, it's, what is it, the definition or something, it's like it's not the past as it was, it's the past as we wished it was.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: But there can also be that, like, romanticizing of, "Oh, remember those scrappy days you and I sit..." I mean, I do actually have some grief over those really early days. The podcast was not being released yet. It was legit, I was just sitting at the... I still have the table. You know, I can, like, picture it today, and we're staying up late, my baby's barely asleep, and it was just like we're having snacks off [00:26:00] mic, you know?
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Like-
DAVID KESSLER: We're, we're unplugging the fridge because sometimes it rattles and there's a snorting dog moving around.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Oh, gosh, rest in peace, Beza, yeah. Mm-hmm. There's also, like, I think sometimes, again, maybe this is very autistic of me, it's so... I s- I feel such, like such a paradox. Like, I simultaneously adore novelty and newness and fun and trying e- everything out all the time, but I really sometimes can be so rigid about holding on to something that it feels that precious.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: So I won't, I won't lie, like, and that's something I know Bobby, and you, and I have also talked about, but, like, I also have, like, I, I, I definitely had that feeling of like, "This is a change, though. I don't like the change," even if the change is for the good.
DAVID KESSLER: There's no way to experience change without some form of loss.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: But why, David? '
DAVID KESSLER: Cause, like, things aren't the same, and so, like, s- we lose something. And even if it's upgrading, like there's a, there's a part that's no longer there.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Oh, David, [00:27:00] okay. Can I give... Okay, this is, like, my brief turn to maybe do a truth bomb for you, okay? Let's
DAVID KESSLER: do it.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Okay, this is why I say, okay, so I just, I just went back, 'cause I s- I signed up for all these trainings on all this stuff, and of course it takes me years to do.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: But point is, is I just went to the, or just went to the like I virt- listened to a virtual training specifically on autism, right? So there was a lot of intersections with ADHD, but okay, the cerebellum, which is connected to, like, your autonomic nervous system, but also does a lot with- for your sense of balance, your sense of your proprioceptive sense, like where your body is in space.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: It's doing a lot of that work, and it's, like, interconnected with the cerebrum, which is doing other stuff. Picture that. Part of what the cerebellum is doing, and a lot of us, listeners included, have something called dyspraxia, which is, like, a motor movement, like, difference essentially that often shows up when you're a kid.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Like, sometimes this is a way someone even learns that they have ADHD or autism actually, is they're, like, in OT, and then they're like, "Oh, [00:28:00] oh, okay." But what dyspraxia, I'm learning, connects to is your brain's prediction machine for what's supposed to happen next is, like, just, just functioning differently.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Like, your processing speed, the way it's taking it in, it's all different. Like, you reach for a cup And your hand just doesn't move right to the cup, for example. Like, you know, it's almost like people would say like, "Oh, you're uncoordinated," let's say, or something is, you're missing a step, right? Or you trip a lot.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: But also what it is is like your brain is moving sometimes so fast that your body's like 10 steps behind your brain. Like in your mind you're already across the room and now your legs are trying to get you there, you know? And it's like, it's like a, a sync up. But get this, okay, one thing they found with autism in particular is something about the density of fibers in the cerebrum versus the cerebellum, essentially there's like essen- like less connection.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: So for autistic folk, we are continually [00:29:00] surprised. Our brains don't make the same shortcut assumptions in our predictive software. Oh. And that could help explain why change is so goddamn dysregulating. Because we have not, or I would argue it's new every, it's like parts of this are new every time. Like I have to relearn and, and that is part of the feature of it is actually that, and that connects to like foundational context first learning, like the way a lot of autistic folks, like we sponge stuff up through all the details around it before we like get it.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: But that made me think of what you're saying 'cause this person doing the training was saying like, "If you think about it, just think about it as a difference in your predictive software." And I was like, "This helps me understand why change feels extra weird on the inside with an external change." And why watching
DAVID KESSLER: a show that you've seen before would be extra soothing [00:30:00] because it, it's not gonna change.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Or having a f- quote, unquote one of the differences at times between ADHD, although we know this is also, AuDHD-ness is real, like there's so much more nuance in all this, right? But like with ADHD you have special interests, right? And one thing sometimes people look for is like a bunch of different rotating special interests.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: With autism they say, oh, fixed special interest. I call bupkis on both honestly, 'cause like what's the definition of a fixed ... Right? But, but one feature is, you're right, it's like going back to the same show, the same stimuli, re-listening to the same song on repeat, on repeat, on repeat. 'Cause the ability for your brain to rest when it doesn't have to do so much work to predict something-
DAVID KESSLER: I have
DAVID KESSLER: Oh my God, no, I just have ... This has helped me understand. Like I have people that I know that like will literally go to the same pla- or like order the same thing in every restaurant, and that would be like p- maybe the second level of hell for me.[00:31:00]
DAVID KESSLER: You know? And, and I just want to make sure, like, for me, I will, I will often be like, "What's ... I need something different. At least it was different. Let's do something new. What happens if we turn it off here? What happens if I..." And I think what you're saying is like that's so dysregulating when your pacing for the world is less predictable.
DAVID KESSLER: Like, things shift faster if you're not, if your perception's different, and more jarring.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Yes, it is more ... Yes. Well, it's like ... Okay. I, the way I think about it, and I read this in another, again, oh, Go- try to remember what book I read this in. But it was likening, like some- this was an autistic writer who was describing their experience, and I th- believe they have ADHD, actually.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: And they was describing, like, one way to think about why I don't like walking into a room full of people I don't know is I haven't, like, as much as I wanna talk to everyone, I need to kinda know, like, what the lay of the land is first, right? And they [00:32:00] had this realization at some point that like, "Oh, actually, I'm doing that in every room.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: So what makes certain rooms more comfortable to me? Oh, it's literally the frequency with which I go to them." Why repetition and consistency are such huge, huge words around creating
DAVID KESSLER: a sense of- What about the room increased the frequency or repetition?
ISABELLE RICHARDS: That as well. That's a very good point. I don't know.
DAVID KESSLER: Wait, wait. But that's, that's the part where I would wanna noodle.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Yeah.
DAVID KESSLER: Because those are the environmental variables. It's like, I've found stuff, like sometimes it's around, like, not having windows or having windows or soft floor or smells, like, and-
ISABELLE RICHARDS: A sensory thing.
DAVID KESSLER: Yeah.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Absolutely. Like knowing
DAVID KESSLER: that-
ISABELLE RICHARDS: No overhead lights.
DAVID KESSLER: Uh-huh. Like, knowing that thing is helpful for like, I think, so much for me.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Thank you so much for listening. If
DAVID KESSLER: you ever
ISABELLE RICHARDS: have
DAVID KESSLER: that thought
ISABELLE RICHARDS: where
DAVID KESSLER: you think, "Hey, I'm nothing," stop. Remember, you're something. Something shiny.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: That's right, just as you are. If you like what you heard and you [00:33:00] want to hear more free episodes of this podcast, please subscribe, rate, and review anywhere you listen to podcasts.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: We're on Instagram as somethingshinypodcast. And if you're looking for more information, useful links, definitions, visuals, everything we can think of and more is on our website at somethingshinypodcast.com, and it's all free. Thank you so much for listening, and we'll see you in two weeks.