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Interesting people, insightful points of view and incredible stories on what’s popping and not popping in marketing, tech, and culture you can use to win immediately. Brands, Beats and Bytes boldly stands at the intersection of brand, tech and culture. DC and Larry are fascinated with stories and people behind some of the best marketing in the business. No matter how dope your product, if your marketing sucks your company may suck too. #dontsuck
DC: Brand Nerds. Brand Nerds. Brand Nerds. You already know what it is. Brands Beats and Bytes right at your dome piece.
We are back at you with the co podcast and we taking it international today, lt, we we're going global. Global.
LT: Yes.
DC: Brand Nerds. You all know my connection and love with the Sprite brand. What you may not know is that love was not just about how Sprite was positioned in the United States of America and North America.
It wasn't just about the ethos of Sprite, which were trust your instincts. We were telling young people to trust their instincts and then it was manifested through agency, low lintas and partners says, obey your thirst. Uh, that wasn't just something that we thought was at the very root of hip hop. We thought these two were the same.
The notion of young people trusting their instincts and obeying their thirst and the actual expression of one, obeying their thirst and trusting their instincts through the, uh, through hip hop culture and largely entertainment that included the NBA in basketball. I say all that to say that I became aware of the power of this positioning and of hip hop culture when I was asked by a gentleman who used to run the US division of Coca-Cola.
It's a gentleman named Charlie Fett. He was running the Africa, um, division of the Coca-Cola company and asked me to come over to South Africa to help, uh, the Sprite brand team and the marketing team in South Africa launch the repositioning of Sprite. I met a brother who has really become my brother in South Africa.
This was in Joburg. Named, uh, Sabu Manuele. He, this is, this is a brilliant man, brand nerds, a brilliant man. He introduced me to several young men and women in South Africa, and also introduced me to, at that time their form of hip hop, which was called Cueto Cueto, and, uh, in music. And I fell in love. I fell in love.
We have listeners in more than a hundred countries, and today, LT have a true artist from the land of South Africa, from the motherland, from the continent. I know I'm going long on this introduction, but I just wanna say one thing about this brother in particular. Some of us may think we're artists. You are not an artist until someone else calls you an artist.
You don't get to call yourself an artist. Someone else has, has to call you an artist. Larry. We've worked with this brother. We know he's an artist and it reminds me of a story of Picasso. Way back in the day. He was commissioned by a wealthy couple to do a piece of art. He does the art in 10 minutes. The wealthy couple's like, why are we giving you this enormous sum of money when it took you 10 minutes to do this piece of art?
His answer, you know where I'm going, LT. His answer to this wealthy couple, Picasso, his this wealthy couple, was, you're not paying me for the 10 minutes that it took me to do this art. You are paying me for the experience that I have decades of experience that prepared me to do this masterpiece in 10 minutes.
We have an artist like that in the building. LT, please break it down for the peoples and let 'em know who we have.
LT: Oh yeah. D, what a great setup. Uh, DC We have Tebogo Kakurupa in the house today. Welcome Tebogo.
Teboho Kakurupa: Yo. Yo. Yo. Geez. Man. You guys, you guys are going hard in this, eh? Jeez.
LT: We're not even close to done
Teboho Kakurupa: So you're going hard in this, eh?
LT: We we're not even close to done, which
DC: we just eqd it. LT, got the real stuff.
LT: Yeah, we're not even close to done. This is ju that's just the preface. Now we gotta tell, take the Brand Nerds, our Brand Nerds through your great experience. So, okay. Brand nerds. We have been working, as DC alluded to with the, Tebogo and a great team of people.
That includes folks from South Africa and from the US on a project called, called Moya and Peppo Incense. This is a great new brand and we will be talking about it a lot more going forward. We have thoroughly enjoyed working with Tebogo and one day DC said to Tebogo, Hey, you know what? We should really have you on our podcast.
That's the backdrop. And now Brand Nerds. Let's introduce you Tebogo's. Great background. So Tebogo earns his undergrad Bachelor of Arts degree in Brand Communications Management from the Vega school in South Africa. He also attends Massachusetts Institute of Technology, better known as MIT, in their management executive education program for digital business strategy.
So he's got a great foundation of education. Tebogo starts his career at Johannesburg ad Agency, old Shanghai Firecracker Company as a copywriter. His first ever campaign is for South Africa Budget Airline, Mango Air, and they win the best advertising campaign at the Budgie Aviation Awards in the uk. He also works on campaigns for brands in the in the fast moving consumer goods category, hotel and automotive categories too.
He then moves over to SABC, who owns and runs four TV stations and 18 radio stations as their brand manager for ASBC News and Current Affairs Tebogo's next move is Marketing Manager for Universal Pictures under the New Metro license, New Metro is one of South Africa's leading cinema chains, and among many projects he gets to work on Despicable Me Fast and The Furious and Barbie franchises.
As we have mentioned many times with wonderful guests like the Boho. Here's the pivot for him, where he decides to go the entrepreneurial route. As founder and group managing director of Rofika Group, focusing on culture consultancy, content creation, and marketing and advertising projects. He also soon joins David in Africa as their Chief Growth Growth Officer, where he is working parallel to Rofika. David in Africa is an African independent marketing consultant built for business transformation and growth through strategic and impactful collaborations. Today, Tebogo has expanded his influence beyond traditional marketing. As a podcaster and content creator, he shares valuable insights and perspectives that spark meaningful dialogue within the creative and marketing communities. Tebogo is passionately committed to inspiring the next generation by celebrating the greatness of those paving the way his podcast, and you can find it on YouTube Brand Nerds, is Culture Code, and you can search Culture X Code where they tell stories on how influential culture is in business.
You'll hear from some of the African culture creatives. Who, who are also known as creatives and marketers, and how culture can be used to drive good results through marketing and advertising campaigns. The Culture Code was created specifically to showcase the best creative work with cultural relevance and the sweet spot of the conversation can be found in different episodes, highlighting insights and learnings from the most innovative and successful business leaders.
To empower its mixed targeted audience, ranging from the consumer, the creative agency, right up to the brand clients boardroom. At his core Tebogo is a collaborative builder who thrives on bringing visions to life. His work is a testament to his belief in a world where creativity, strategy, and innovation converge to create lasting impact.
We're really excited for this one. Welcome to Brands, Beats and Bytes Tebogo Kakurupa.
Teboho Kakurupa: Thank you. Thank you, man. Just. What a long is not. It's not me though. I'm kidding. I'm, man. Thank you. Thank you, thank you. Thank you, LT. Thank you. DC. Geez, man. Oh, geez. Thank you also for having me on the platform. I really appreciate it. Eh.
LT: You did it all Tebogo.
Teboho Kakurupa: I did it all. I mean, you know what? It's, it's, it's actually, it's actually so surreal, you know? I mean, when, when somebody's actually now reading out what you've done in the industry, you know, like, like, wow, is that me? You know? 'cause we never, we never, we never really look at ourselves and say, Hey, this is what I've done.
Like, you just kind of like take a lot of the things for granted and say, yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm trying, I'm doing this. And I think it's platform like these that kind of like give you that your flowers to say, Hey man, a tap on the shoulder. Like, yo dude, this is what you've done. You know what I mean? So thank you guys. Eh,
DC: This is, uh, exactly why we do it, uh, to Bojo. You are exactly right. Uh, Larry and I, and Jade, and Hailey and Jeff, our team, we often say. Usually this kind of thing happens during our obituaries. We're gone and someone's talking about us. It doesn't typically happen where someone's saying these things in front of us and we are sitting there listening to it.
And it is exactly what you said Tebogo. It's you getting your flowers. And Larry does a fabulous job of recounting some of the wonderful things that our guests have done. So all you brother, I'm going to transition now into the get comfy, uh, section. And I actually have two things for you Tebogo. Normally it's just one, but this time I've got two.
Teboho Kakurupa: Okay.
DC: You have been on the client side and brand management. You've done tech, you've done media, and you've done brand broadly. You've been on the agency side, so both sides, both client side and agency side. And now you've also been an entrepreneur. So you have, you have quite a, a, a breadth of experience and depth of experience in marketing and business.
I mentioned that our podcast, fortunately, is, uh, consumed and listened to in, in more than 100 countries. South Africa, fortunately, is one of those countries Tebogo in the US and sometimes in Europe. We can think that the way we do marketing here will simply work everywhere. This is what we used to think years ago.
Now we know that's not true. You can't just do the same thing everywhere. To behold, to the brand nerds out there who are not familiar with what it takes to build a powerful brand that impacts not just commerce, but culture in South Africa. What do they need to know?
Teboho Kakurupa: Look, I think, I think the, the most important thing you really have to understand your, your market.
I mean, in, and, and, and I think also it helps a little bit also if, if, if you've kind of like studied, uh, marketing. And I think, I think for me, it, it, it, it, it made it very, I mean, easy for me because I mean, I studied first of all, and I, and I didn't just study one side of it. I mean, I studied, I mean, I'm, I'm a, I'm a copywriter as Larry just said.
I mean, I'm a copywriter by profession. I studied that. And I also now studied also the, the, the brand strategic management as well. So, which also kind of like gives me like the bit of both worlds, you know? Mm-hmm. Um, and, and, and for me, and, and luckily enough for me, I, I, I love culture. I mean, I love, I love, I love the, I love people.
I love how things are done in the, like, on the ground level in terms of like, how do you. How do you, how do you, how do you market to the people that, and 'cause I mean, it's not just about market to people, it's also you need to understand the people that you're marketing to. And I think that's where, that's where culture that, that, that's where we now talking culture, right?
So, so, so, and I think to your question, what, what, what, sorry, I, I lost the question now. So, but
DC: no, no. So you, you are already answering the question is that, is what do people need to know about building brands in South Africa that positively impact both commerce and culture? So you're answering the question.
You've already, you've already provided an answer. You can keep going though.
Teboho Kakurupa: Yeah. So, so, so, so, you know, you know, and I think, here's another thing. So in South Africa we have like a lot of, um, I think about about. 11, well talk about 12 official languages here, right? So what then happens is that, and all of these guys, they speak, they have like, there's different dialects.
These guys speak different languages. These guys have different cultures within, in any case. But I think one thing that you need to understand, I I think just like any, anywhere in the world, there is one thing that is like, we have an American culture, we have a Euro like Chinese, we have like, we have South African culture.
So, so, so what makes it easy is for you to understand that South African culture as a whole, because I mean all of these guys, all of these people who have like 12 official, well we have 12 official languages. All of these people have speak different languages. But there's one thing that connects us all, which is a South African, South Africanism in all of us, right?
Mm-hmm. And funny enough, today, today we actually are celebrating, uh, it's the 24th of, uh, September. We are celebrating Heritage Day. Which also is like we celebrating our diversity, our, our being, what we are all about, who we are and all of that, right? And I think as much as people are getting, diving into celebrating their individuality, there's also one thing that we need to celebrate, which is our, our sort of Africanism, right?
So, so one thing about marketing, uh, uh, uh, to South African, you need to understand, I think the basic, the basic, basic thing. You need to understand who South Africa, south Africans are and what do they relate to, you know? And I think that's, that's, that's, that's one thing that I've kind of like, um, I've done, I I've done very well in that, in that, in, in that spectrum.
And I think I've, I've kind of like, um, um, enjoyed doing that 'cause our African can market
DC: Excellent. Tebogo. I've got a follow up comment, and then I'm gonna ask the second question. But before I do that, Larry, any response to what To, Tebogo said?
LT: Oh, making sense to me.
DC: So the 12 languages is, uh, very interesting.
LT: It is
DC: Factoid brand, Brand Nerds. The fastest growing middle class. The continent with the fastest growing middle class in the world is Africa. Mm-hmm. So the continent of Africa has the fastest growing middle class in the world by far. And South Africa is a substantial part, uh, of that. So growth Tebogo has been, uh, you know, a, a growth officer.
Growth is happening in Africa broadly as a continent and also in South Africa. Here is my next question Tebogo, Tebogo, and it relates to the fact that you've done brand management and brand strategy and you've also done copywriting. This is a rare combination. Normally folks Tebogo, they pick the, I'm a copywriter, I'm a director, that's it.
Or I'm a strategist, or I'm a brand manager, or that's it. They don't do both. They, most people don't do, uh, do both to bojo. So this, this goes to your copyright, copywriting, creative side and also your brand management and, uh, strategy development side. When you are stuck in a project, you don't know the next idea or the next thing to write, or the next part of the strategy to develop.
You started it, but you just got stuck. How do you work yourself through that to move to the next stage?
Teboho Kakurupa: You know what I mean? All of us get stuck. Right. Right. I mean, you know, I mean, I I, I get stuck a lot and I think also sometimes too much information is a, is, is, is actually like problematic. You know, when you have, when you have a lot of information and you can imagine as a, as as someone who's a copywriter and you move over and now you become a brand manager, you become marketing manager, you doubling research and all of that.
That, that's, that's already, that's that, that, that's problematic. Right. Um, but I think, I think, I think because, because for me, being culture led is, is one of the easiest for me. It was one of the easiest thing that I've ever done for myself. Mm-hmm. So I think just, you know, hitting the local sport, you know, hitting the local sport, hitting the local, grab a bear or go, go to the local concert, go, I think it, it, it kind of like, it, it helped me unlock that, you know, that, that, that, that, those, um, ideas and all of that.
For me, it's just hitting the local, interact with people. Go have a beer, um, go speak to the vendor on the side of the street. You know, like go, go talk to people. I think for me, that's what I have done when I get stuck. That's good.
LT: You have a follow up to this, so please. You mentioned culture led Tebogo, which I think is, is, is awesome.
Can you expound upon that what you mean by that?
Teboho Kakurupa: So, so culture led, it, it's, it's, so how do you approach marketing? I mean, how do I approach marketing and I, I, I think when I say culture led, I'm talking about how, so you are lead, you are, you are, you are leading your whatever. When you answer your brief, then you say, culturally, how would this thing translate to my consumer?
How would my target, my, how, how would my target audience understand this and who is my target audience? And well, for me, most of the time it's like my target audience is like, okay, South African, uh, uh, market, South Africa, we have like white people, we have black people, and, but at the of the day we are.
South African and in South African context, this is how we do things, right? Mm-hmm. And then, and culturally, that is, this is how we do things culturally. Um, mm-hmm. On, on, on Heritage Day, the 24th of September, we bri meat, you know, we, we, we celebrate our diversity and all of that. We are. So it's the more culture led understanding the, the, the, the diversity of, of, of our people, understanding the Africa South Africanism, if, if, if, if I'm, if, if the brand isnt a South African brand, so sometimes it's a, I'm dealing with a, an African brand.
It's like this, this brand is like, uh, on a continent, on the, on the, on, on the whole continent. And when it's on the whole continent. Now what is that common thread that connects all of us as Africans? So that's, that's, that's, that's how I, I I, I attack, you know, the, the cultural, how when I, when I mean cultural led.
DC: That's good. That's good. Larry, anything else on that? I got one more. We're gonna go to the next section. Topo. Did I understand you to say that Heritage Day is September 24th?
Teboho Kakurupa: Hmm.
DC: That would be today?
LT: Yep.
DC: That's today. Why, why are you on this podcast with us? You need to be out celebrating, brother.
Teboho Kakurupa: No, I just, but like, I just, I just, I, I was outside the whole day.
I just came, I just came in. I mean, it's, it's, it's, what time is it now? It's, it's like, it's, it's after eight, you know? Yeah. So from there, the festivities happen from nine o'clock in the morning until six o'clock. Eight o' you know, eight o'clock. So, so, yeah. I mean, I'm mean, I've done with my, with my celebration, I'm good.
I mean, and also couldn't miss this opportunity, guys sitting with you here and chatting to you guys. I mean, I'm like, yo guys, it's, it's, it's, it's been real. I gotta, I gotta be home. I gotta, I'm talking to DC and lt, you know, it's going down.
LT: Thank you, brother. Appreciate you doing this on, uh, even if it's towards the end of your holiday, we appreciate that.
Teboho Kakurupa: Yeah, yeah.
DC: All right. Tebogo, the next section is called Five Questions. Larry and I go back and forth with questions until we arrive at five. I get to kick things off, go back in time Tebogo. Think about a, your first brand experience that captured your heart, touched your soul. Yeah. Your first brand experience that just made you fall in love with whatever this brand or experience was, a bit like a first love.
What was this for you Tebogo?
Teboho Kakurupa: So, um, we have a brand in South Africa called, uh, Sasol. So Sasol is a petroleum, uh, uh, uh, uh, company. Okay.
LT: Can you spell that Tebogo?
Teboho Kakurupa: Sorry.
LT: Can you spell what's the spelling of that?
Teboho Kakurupa: So, Sasol is SA. And then SOL.
LT: Gotcha.
Teboho Kakurupa: Sasol petroleum. So it's a, it's a, um, well, they're also doubling in, in, in chemicals.
Um, but yeah, it's a South African brand, actually. Sasol, uh, uh, petroleum company. They, we, we, you do have it in America. Um, it just doesn't really, uh, I don't know if it's, it trades as Sasol but I know that, um, um, there's a friend of mine who actually works for Sasol Uh, he's an expert that side in, uh, okay.
Um, the, that the headquarters is in, uh, is in Texas, Houston. Okay. Um, yeah. So what happened? What happened was, I mean, I think a long time ago, I, I'm as, as a young boy. Um, so they had a, they had, they have a TV ad, they, 32nd sport. Um, so this young boy, um, I think me a 6-year-old playing with a, with a, with a car toy, right?
Mm-hmm. And then he has like a little pump. So, and then he's putting like a, he is like, you know, like when you have a little, little small car and you have like a toy pump as well, and then the toy pump, I know this toy pump, whether, so let's just say this toy pump is like a, it's, it's like a Sasol toy pump, right?
And then it's pouring into the, into his, uh, uh, small car, right? Mm-hmm. And then all of a sudden, this, this, this toy car, and then he reverses the car. And then this. Now all of a sudden after he's pouring into this toy car, now this toy car now is like, all of a sudden it's, it's, it's like start revving, start revving, like going like the, like the car start reving, and then the car just fade off and hit the door, literally hit the door.
And goes outside, okay. And the dog, the dogs are barking and all of that. So literally broke the door, broke the door, sped outside, the dog is barking in the house. It's just like all, like, the parents are running. What's what just happened? So for me, and I'm like, wow, man, this is crazy. And the little boy in that, in that, in that, in, in, in that sport, he's also now like, wow.
He's also like now surprised. He's like, what just happened?
LT: Right?
Teboho Kakurupa: But for me, I'm like, wow. And I say, and I say to my, to my grandmother at the time, I'm like, grandma, you know what just happened here? I wanna do this. And I, I used to call those, I used to call ads, little movies. I was like, yeah, I wanna make little movies, man.
I wanna make movie.
LT: That's where they're, yeah.
Teboho Kakurupa: Little movies.
LT: You took us right back there, man. Tebogo. That's a great story. And you know, when great work happens. You don't know who it touches and when it's gonna touch them, you know? And here you're a little kid and you can still recount that whole ad, you know, almost verbatim from the time that you saw it.
And, uh, the inspiration comes from very interesting places.
Teboho Kakurupa: Yeah. So, yeah. So that little movies, I think for me, and then I, and then I said to myself, you know what? I wanna make little movies for me. I, I wanna do, I don't want, I don't want to do long, uh, uh, like two hour movie and whatnot. Yeah. I wanna make little movies.
I wanna make short movies. And then fast forward, I met, I met a guy, um, like, like in my, I think my neighbor, uh, not far from my grandmother's house. And he was like, no man, that's not little movies. You call them little movies. That's, that's, that's advertising, that's ads. You know? And I'm like, oh, wow.
Advertising. I wanna go into advertising. And that was it. That was for me, that was it. And, and then fast forward, I was in, I was, I was at Vega. I was studying, you know, I was studying advertising. I'm, I kind a little, I went a little bit like, you know, long rooted because, I mean, because also I didn't also understand what this advertising is.
Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I was confusing. I was confusing. Is it with, uh, because I mean, previously I had studied, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a media journalism dropout as well. So I went into media. 'cause I mean, I thought when you go into media, you are gonna circle back. You're gonna find yourself in advertising.
Someone said, no, well, you can, but you're not gonna specialize.
LT: Right, right.
Teboho Kakurupa: Yeah. And then I, and then I had to drop, and then I had to drop out out of a, a media and journalism, uh, uh, whatever, diploma. And then I went, now, that's when I now went to Vegas. Then now, now it was now clear as to now. What advertising is because now I was now doing journalism, so I was like, yeah, but journalism is kind of, it's kind of boring.
So I'm reporting on the things that have just already happened. I'm not, I'm not seeing me writing little movies here. I'm just seeing me reporting on sad, depressive stories. I don't wanna, I don't wanna write depressive.
LT: It's true.
Teboho Kakurupa: I wanna, I don't wanna write in s through
LT: And fast forward you made little movies.
That's really,
Teboho Kakurupa: and fast forward I made little movies. That's that. That's really cool.
DC: That is good Tebogo. I got, uh, one quick comment. Larry, anything from you?
LT: No.
DC: I'll make a comment and then I'll, I'll uh, uh, go give it up to you, Larry, to ask the next question. So the first thing Tebogo was how old were you when you saw that first little movie?
Teboho Kakurupa: I must have been. Sure. I think I was, I was, I was, I was in school. I mean, now I think I must have, I must, must have been 12 or 12. Okay. Got it. Okay. That's how, that's how long I know that I think between, yeah, between, between, between 14 and 16. I think I must, yeah. Around there a little over 16. Okay. 14 and 16.
DC: Okay. The other thing is that you're exactly right Tebogo. We never know what little movies, uh, how they impact others. Uh, two things happened with me when I was on the Sprite brand. We did a piece of, uh, of advertising, uh, through the mind of Reginald Jolly that featured up and coming MCs. They were quite credible.
But they weren't known broadly. Uh, one, one gentleman's name was Grand Puba. He was with a group called The Brand Nubians, and the other one was called, uh, he was a, he was a producer and a rapper. His name was, is called, he was called Large Professor, and he used to be with a group called The Main Source.
They were together doing a freestyle from that ad Tebogo. When I would go out and someone would say, yeah, this, this is the Sprite guy that did that, they would rhyme bar for bar every line in that commercial to, to say to me, I know that now, a decade later, I then go to Boost Mobile and we do a marketing campaign.
And one of our ads featured, uh, Ludicrous, uh, The Game who had just, he hadn't even dropped anything yet. And a young guy who had just dropped an album, a little known rapper named Kanye West. Oh, and so they, they did a, a, an ad for us, a little movie, and Kanye did a whole song. My daughter heads marketing for our podcast.
She has a boyfriend and his, his name is Christian. They call him Coog, COOG. He has a platform where he does covers hip hop culture called The Daily Note. Super dope, you brand Nerves, you all should go check it out. The Daily Note, TDN. And he unbeknownst to me when Hailey told him who I was, he rhymed the Kanye West Ludicrous Game ad bar for Bar and his friends do the same thing.
So we don't know what impact these little movies have. I just wanted to get that out. All right, Larry, second question.
LT: Yeah. So Tebogo, who is haters having the most influence on your career?
Teboho Kakurupa: So, so when I, when I got to Vega, right? I was a student now at Vega. I had, I had a lady, well, my lecture, Claire Harrison, um, and may her soul rest in peace.
Um, so like, you know, like I'm, I'm just this passionate young guy, um, and she's my a copywriting lecture. Um, and then I, yeah, just in class and then I'm just, I'm just this passionate guy and whatnot. And fast forward to, um, my last year. And then she said, wow, you know, I've been, I've been seeing you. Like I've been, 'cause I mean, I, I was very inquisitive 'cause I'm remember I came in there with the whole, I wanna make little movies.
So now I wanted to know everything that has to know about making little movies. Mm-hmm. I wanted to even be on set when they're shooting these little movies. I wanted to be there. Mm-hmm. Um, and I think Claire, she, she couldn't, she couldn't, um. She couldn't miss that. Yo, this, this young man here is really crazy about the industry and fast forward.
So Claire, she was, I mean, you're like, in South Africa, you can, you, I I, I suppose in the US is the same, it's the same setup. So you, you are able to, you can be a lecturer and then still be working in an agency. So she was working in, yeah, she was working in, at, at Shanghai, which was, she was a, she was a creative director at Shanghai at the time.
That's how it, okay. And yeah. And then she says to me, look, man, uh, t uh, just come in and, and, and, and do the internship, your internship with us. And I'm like, yeah, sure, why not? Um, 'cause I mean, I have also done other internships with other agencies throughout the year. 'cause I mean, throughout the year, your last year you had to do like internships with other agencies, right.
Maybe a week here, a week there and whatnot. But I think I spent most of my time at, at Shanghai through Claire. Claire like recruited me and then she said to me, look, I'm gonna advocate for you to stay. And then literally. Now I stayed at Shang at Shanghai with Claire. And I think my, my passion for, for, for, for, for culture.
I think that's where it started as well, because Claire, what hap what had happened there was that Claire also kind of like, gave, gave me the biggest break ever. So I got in there as a junior, but I got to work on a real brief on, on real briefs as an, as an intern, because I mean, that, that was in, that, that was for that, that was, that was her now saying, look, I'm gonna advocate for you.
I know you are capable, but I'm gonna give you the biggest, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, platform. I'm, I'm gonna, I'm gonna place you in the biggest platforms, um, unlike other kids who are, who are just intend intending Here, I'm gonna give you like real briefs. You don't wanna be doing scams, you're not gonna be doing, uh, uh, uh, cutting paper and all of that.
I'm gonna give you real brief. I was working on real brief. I think. So for me, Claire, kind of like she, she's the biggest influence in, in, in, in, in, in my career. Um, I think ever from, from the jump.
LT: Thanks for sharing that. Rest in peace. Claire. It sounds like you know, rest in peace, Claire. Yeah. So what do you think it was about that she didn't have you make copies and cut paper and do like, that she gave you something real, um, to, there must have been a trust that you had already imbued in her.
What, what do you think it was?
Teboho Kakurupa: I think, I think for her it was very easy also 'cause she knew it from class, right? Um, right. So I, I was that enthusiastic kid in class who wanted to, who was, I mean, I was, I was, I was. I, I, I must have pushed her hard enough. You know, I must have pushed her hard enough to say, look man, I wanna be in this industry and I'm gonna do, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do my best.
You know? So I think I gave her a little bit of comfort to say, I know he's ready. I know he's capable. You know, so she knew you worked from class. And also, and also I was acing my, my, my, my, my papers as well, you know? There you go. That's what it was.
LT: Yeah. Do you see anything to add before you, uh, hit the next question?
Well just rest in power. Yeah. Rest in power.
Teboho Kakurupa: Claire, rest in power. Clear man. She changed my life.
LT: Clearly. Yeah. We all have people like that. D, floor's, yours.
DC: Thank you. When you listened to Larry at the beginning Tebogo go through your experience in watching your face, I could see both. A bit of joy and also a bit of it's, did I do all of that?
Some of that was on your face. This is a lot of successes that you've had. This third question has nothing to do with any of your successes. This question has to do with your biggest F up, your biggest mistake. The one that happened because of something you thought or didn't think because of something you did or didn't do.
It was on you Tebogo this mistake. And importantly, what did you learn from said mistake.
Teboho Kakurupa: Yeah, so my biggest F up, you know, as much as I think, as much as I. I, I, I've done well, and you are right. You are, you are, you are spot on. Thec, I think, you know, when Larry was saying all of these things, I'm like, wow, is that me?
Like, really? Did I, you know, because I never, like, I never look back into myself and say, yo, mm-hmm. What, what have I, what have I really accomplished, achieved, and all of that. I mean, there's a, there's, there's a lot of, um, inpost syndrome that's, you know, hit all of us most of the time, especially as creative people.
We all have. You're right. We all have it. Hey, especially as creative people be like, yeah, I'm not good enough, or I'm getting irrelevant, or blah, blah. You know? Um, and whereas other people look at you and say, good, you, you've, you've, you, you, you, you've been killing it. Um, so my biggest up is that, so I go to, uh, Shanghai, um, I, I, I think I, I I, I stayed with, with, with Shanghai for, I think for.
Three, I think three years. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I, I, I spent a three years, wow.
DC: Three years. Okay. Yeah.
Teboho Kakurupa: Just under three years with ch with, with, with, with Shanghai. And at the time, I was also, I was also studying, you know, um, my grandmother said, said, yo, I mean, I have a bit of money if you wanna, if you wanna continue studying, go for it.
And I, and, and I, I, um, I was now studying part-time now. 'cause now I'm in class with, uh, with, I'm sorry, I'm in, I'm in, uh, I'm at Shanghai full-time. So now I continue studying part-time with, with, with Vega. And I'm doing brand strategic management, um, immediately after I graduated. And then I, I, I, and then I'm, and now all these corporations, now I'm getting like, invitations to come, do, like to have interviews with them and all of that.
Mm-hmm. Um, one big mistake that I did, I submitted my CV to one recruiter and that now that recruiter know what the hell she did. Obviously she must have passed my CV around. And like this guy is a, is a creative, but he is just graduated as a, as a, he potentially can be a brand manager, can be a researcher, whatever.
Um, and now, so now the pay, the paycheck is different when you go to client side from a creative side to client side paycheck, uh, uh, uh, the bracket is completely different. And I'm like, yeah, man, I need, I need, I need more money. You know? And I, um, I, and I had jumped, jumped ship. And I think for me, I think I should have stayed a little bit more on the creative side because generally, look, I mean, I love business, right?
I mean, I love building brands. I love business. I, I I, I, I I working with budgets and all that, it is good, right? But I think before all of that, I'm, I'm, I'm more of a creative person that I am. The business person, you know, like, or maybe, I don't know. I'm a mixture of a suit and a, and a and a creative person, but I think I should have stayed a little bit more on the creative side, I think just to kind of like craft my skill and build and solidify the whole thing.
Um, but I mean, I moved for money. I mean, and, and you know, I think that's the, that's the big f up in my, like, in my, in my career. Um, well, they, they always say you shouldn't live with regrets. Right. But I think, I mean, well, I do, I have regret not, so, not, not, not, not entirely. I don't have a regret, but I think I should have like, kind of like stayed, maybe I should have moved after five years, after six years, you know, after like, kind of like, you know, solidifying the, the, the, the, the, the.
My, uh, my, my copywriting, my creativity back then, because client side, you know, you, you are not given, uh, a, a creative license. It's all about the p and l. It's all about, it's all about all this serious stuff, man. It's all about the budget. It's all about all of these things. So, you know, so I think, I think I should have, I should have stayed in a, in, in, in, in advertising.
Um, I should have, uh, I shouldn't have moved that quick. That was my big F up. And I think what I've learned is that you should never, never, never move forward. Like, look, it's, it's not about money as much as we think it's about money, right? Mm-hmm. Sometimes it's, it's money. Money will always, money will always come.
But we tend to, especially as young as, as young people, as young creatives, we always think money, money, you're chasing money. So I think one thing that I've learned now is that I never, I, I, I don't, I don't chase money. I, I don't make things about money. Now. I, I think, I think now I just follow what I, what I, what I love.
Do what you love, you know, and then money will follow you.
LT: So Tebogo, you know what's really interesting? Yeah. We just had a guest a couple weeks ago, Scott Robinson, who, uh, uh, same story, different details. Um, oh. And, and we, we, our brand arts can't hear this enough. We're really glad you shared that, um, because uh, it is so, uh, as a young person it is, it is, it is that you feel like there's that rainbow there that you have to get now.
Um, and it's so enticing. That's the word I was looking for, to, to make the move for money early when you're much better off taking the course of the slow and steady. Right. Um, and not go the rabbit. And, and so, you know, your story is a great one and we can't hear it enough, quite frankly.
Teboho Kakurupa: Yeah. Yeah, you must never, never, never, never, never do it for, for for money.
I think. Look, money will find you, man. You know, do what you love, man.
DC: Yep. Tebogo. I wish that I knew that at a very young age.
LT: Me too.
DC: I was fairly young when two of my most important mentors, ostensibly said the same thing to me. One was Don Cornelius, who was the founder of Soul Train West, rest in power, and a media mogul.
And the other one was Clarence Avon, who is the, we called him the black godfather. He was the real godfather. No one in entertainment or business that was black in this country and some places around the world made any significant move without some consultation with Clarence Avon. And both of them said to me when I was thinking about.
Uh, taking a different job. They said, don't make your move too soon. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Don't make your move too soon. Yep.
LT: And by the way, I just wanna say Don Cornelius and CL and Clarence Avon are two of the most important figures in business overall. Yeah, yeah. But certainly in helping realize how much diversity would help on, uh, it, it would, would help businesses that they touched and so That's right.
Rest in power to both of them. Um,
DC: rest in power to both of them. And there, there would be knowledge. Knowledge to both of them. Yeah. There would be no Sprite in the way Sprite is known. There would not be, uh, ads, little movies, the world over that leverage hip hop culture without those two gentlemen teaching me.
Would not, would not, would not have happened. Larry. Next question, brother.
LT: Yes, next question. Just one last comment. I shared this on that Scott Robinson podcast about, I was led by monies Tebogo, same thing, and just can't say it enough, how we have to be led by passion and the money will follow. Um, so the next question Tebogo is the bite side of the, of the equation here.
So, um, when you're, when you're thinking about tech and marketing, um, the confluence of that Tebogo, can you talk to us about where you think marketers should lean in or best leverage tech? Or you can take us to areas that you think they should be leery or simply avoid?
Teboho Kakurupa: Yeah, I think, I think, let me, lemme start with the letter.
You know what, uh, I think a lot of, a lot of, a lot of creatives or marketers now, they want tech who to do the job for them. And I think that's very dangerous. Mm. You know, like, I mean, I've seen a lot of people now. Um, you know, they, they, I mean, even, even, even, even, even even, um, uh, mark Zuckerberg now just spoke about how, uh, advertising industry, uh, is gonna die.
Um, um, clients don't even need to go to, uh, uh, agencies. Uh, I mean, they can, they can, they, they have tools, AI tools that can do everything for them. Look, uh, and I, and I often say this, AI has never been in a room where a baby was being delivered. Um, AI has never fallen in love. Tech has never fallen in love.
Uh, tech has never, has never been has, you know, has never, has never, has never had. It's heartbroken. So it doesn't have feelings, you know? Yeah. Well, especially, at least for now, I don't know, maybe in the future, maybe tech, maybe we'll have AI to have it's heartbroken or something like that, but hey, we don't know.
But I think, I think, I think for me. We, we need to look, we, we, we need tech. I think for now, uh, uh, to, to measure, um, to do that heavy lifting for us. You know, the heavy lifting tech definitely comes in. Uh, definitely comes in handy. You know, it, it, it definitely comes in handy. Do the heavy lifting for, I, I mean it, so research back in the days, research will take you days and days. That's particularly desktop research, right? Right. So you can do this thing in a minute and then you will have all your research and all that, which kind of like guides your creative process or it kind of guides your, your, your, your, how you're gonna move going forward, either as a, as a marketer, as a creative.
So, so definitely I think marketers, creatives, they need to lean in tech in terms of like, for that heavy lifting. It makes things very easy for us in this day and age. But I think the most dangerous thing is for us when we expect now tech to do like the creative part for us, that's very dangerous. 'cause it's not gonna, it's, it's, it's not able to give us that now for, at least for now when there's a lot of debates around like what, what it can and can't do.
But I think when it comes to creativity, not yet.
LT: I'm so glad you brought this up. DC and I have gone on the record for now years. Lean in all the way to ai, lean in, know it, and, and, and everything. And I'm so glad you have the perspective that you have because we, I'm not, I don't wanna speak for DC but I pretty sure I know what his answer's gonna be.
But I agree with you entirely. We, we have embraced ai, it's helped us immensely. All of, like you said, research and again, taking you much further faster in whatever work that or project that you're working. But ultimately, you, you, you have to be the purveyor of getting it past the finish line, to your point, and being the impetus for the creativity, asking, asking it the right questions by the way, but then also being the one who's going to, to really take it to the, to the last point, those last yards.
And so, um, what you're really saying Tebogo is. I think you're saying embrace it, but it's not the be all, end all that you ultimately have to be the, the leader of the tech, not the follower.
Teboho Kakurupa: A hundred percent. A hundred percent. Nailed it.
DC: Yeah. I'll add to this, Tebogo these three questions, or not questions, but thoughts you have about what AI has not experienced.
AI has never been in a room where baby's been born. AI has never fallen in love, and AI has never had its heart broken, not so coincidentally Tebogo. There was a gentleman here who talked about the danger of AI to humanity, and they said the way to ensure that AI does not in some way eradicate human beings, it must be programmed with the feelings of a mother of a mother and he, his, his hypothesis Tebogo and Larry is that if somehow AI has the care of a mother as one of its core source codes, it will not destroy humanity because it will care for humanity. I believe that. I don't know how that's done
LT: right.
DC: I do believe that needs to be done for the reasons that you've said.
At the moment, AI does not have feelings and when an individual doesn't have feelings or empathy, they can wreak havoc on humanity. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. They can. Hundred, a hundred percent.
LT: Yes. Alright, D, you wanna hit the next question? I do,
DC: My brother Tebogo. Sir, what are you most proud of?
Teboho Kakurupa: Um, I'm proud of, you know, how I've moved, um, how I've moved, uh, throughout my career. I, I think, I think I, I think that self-belief, you know, I think self-belief is very, very important. I mean, I earlier spoke about, uh, um, imposter syndrome, um, which kind of like hit you later in your, in your, in your career.
Like, especially when you grow older, you'd be like, oh, Shaqs, am I still relevant? Oh, am I, can I do this? You know, but I think. Uh, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm very much proud of how I've moved. I think that, that, that self belief that I can do this, you know, and I think at the launch of my podcast also, I'm, I'm very proud of that.
I mean, 'cause when I, I, I, I took a, a while, you know, contemplating on studying a podcast. Um, but I think eventually I did it. So I, I'm proud of, I'm proud of that. I, I think self-belief is, it's, it's, it's key particularly for, for creative people. I think for, for Marketa, for, for, for, for creative. Um, it's, it's key.
So I'm, I'm proud of how I've, I've moved, uh, throughout my career in really my, even with my, my f-ups, you know?
LT: Good. That's awesome. Tebogo and, and DC and I have talked about this actually d in the last year or so. We've had a couple of really, uh, deeper conversations about this. And, and you alluded to this, that when you're younger, and I'm gonna say.
For myself, I don't want to accuse anybody else of this young and dumb. Um, and what I mean by the dumb part is that, you know, you're just living your life and living and, and having that self-belief of, you know, being able to do something and hammering it through. And, and the dumb part is that you don't realize maybe how difficult it is, the thing that you're embarking upon and also all the context and challenges around you.
You're, you're not reading it all right. And at least I wasn't. And so that enabled me to really bowl through some things that my older self would've realized. Whoa, whoa, do you realize this one's gonna be shooting for you? And, and, and over there, the, the consumer's not maybe vibing. And, and, and I just didn't account for all those things.
And actually it helped me because the self-belief that you alluded to won the self-belief was the fuel to get to that, uh, you know, ultimate end zone. And, um, and so brand nerds, the self-belief is just so paramount. Um, and, and it, you might think it's imposter, but if you don't believe it, no one else will.
Teboho Kakurupa: Yeah. So, so, you know, you know, the thing is like delusional, you know, like a little bit Yeah, yeah. I've, I've, I've, I've stayed delusional, you know, that that delusion. Yeah. It, it, it, it, it goes, it, it goes a long way. Being delusional. You, you, you gotta be delusional, you know? I think, uh, um, and, and, and, and I've been, that drove me to be like, yeah, I can do this.
I can do this. You know, so. Yep. So, so, so, so, so that, that carried me. And, and for me that, that's very, very important. I think brand nets, that's, that's, that's, that's key.
DC: That's good. That's good. Uh, the, uh, this reminds me, the disbelief that you have Tebogo reminds me of something that was used to describe Steve Jobs at Apple. And they described what he would create around him and they said he called it, or they called it a reality distortion field.
LT: That's right.
DC: This was in, uh, I think Walter Isaacson great author in his book about Steve Jobs.
And he, he was explaining Tebogo exactly what you're saying in Steve Jobs's mind. What he had as a vision of what Apple could be was not. In reality, like there was no way that it could do those things yet. Yeah. Because of his self-belief and the belief in his team, they did it. They did it. And I believe that like you, in order to achieve great things in life, and what I mean by great things is things that will be remembered and recounted decades, if not centuries later.
You gotta have some of that.
Teboho Kakurupa: Yep. Yeah.
DC: Because it's not, it's, it's, you gotta have, it's not reality, it's just not No. Excellent brother. Excellent. Yeah.
Teboho Kakurupa: At least, at least in the moment, it's, it's not, it's not real. It's like, you know, it's not real in the moment, you know? No, and, and it always seems, um, so unreal until it's done, right?
DC: Yes. Yeah. Correct.
LT: All right. De this is great. Uh, yes. Ready to go to the next segment. Let's do it. All right. What's popping? What's popping? D? What's popping? What's popping? So,
Teboho Kakurupa: what's popping?
LT: Love this. This is our chance to shout out, shout down, or simply have something happening in around marketing today that we think is good fodder for discussion at Tebogo.
Or, I know you had something and we like, please don't share it yet. Now's your chance to share it.
Teboho Kakurupa: Yeah. Um, so in, in, in, in, in, in my country, in South Africa right now, so we've seen a lot of, um, um, and, and what, for you guys, the us the market, I mean, you, you guys lead a lot of things. I mean, right now there's a, there's a influencer, content creator mm-hmm.
Economy, right? Mm-hmm. Uh, which is, it's, it's huge. I think, I know in the US it's huge. I mean, it's, it's a lot of these kids, a lot of these guys are making serious money. With just being content creators, you know, they with just their phones and ring lights and, and, and just, and just either dancing or whatever.
And, and they've built like huge, enormous communities around themselves. Right, right. Um, but now, um, um, um, in South Africa, because the, the industry South Africa, we, we are a small country. We're not as big. We're a small country, uh, population. We are just over 65 million. So we, we are not that big. Right. Um, so what is happen, so obviously the, the, the, the industry, uh, marketing and advertising industry, it's, it's, it's quite small.
So now there's been a lot of, uh, uh, uh, uncertainty around, uh, in influencer content creator economy, particularly from a, from an agency point of view. Um, uh, agency owners are now, they found shaking in their boots, man. Like, say, what the hell? Um, what are these kids doing? Are they trying, are they trying to take a business or what?
You know? Mm-hmm. Because some clients actually have been going directly with, uh, with content creators, um, sure. To briefing them. 'cause especially, especially with a lot of, um, uh, uh, marketing companies, having. In-house, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, marketing, uh, like in-house marketing, what do I say in in-house marketing agencies or whatever.
Yeah. They have their own in-house, uh, marketing, right? Yeah. Marketing agencies or whatever. I don't know how to put it, but
DC: Creative studios.
LT: Yeah, yeah.
Teboho Kakurupa: Studios and all those kind of things. Now, production studios,
LT: we've seen our clients over here do that too, by the way. So you keep going.
Teboho Kakurupa: Yeah. You know what I mean?
So, so now, because the, the, the indu particularly advertising, it's, it's a small, it's a small market. It's a small, it's a small industry. So now, now obviously the pie is smaller and now the pie is shrinking because now marketing, marketing departments are now going directly to these guys, to, to, to, to, to, um, to, to content create, to the content, to the creator economy.
Um, now what's popping is that a lot of these executives, uh, advertising executive, they have been rallying behind the fact that. They should now bring in content creators within agency mm-hmm. Landscape. Mm-hmm. They need to hire these guys. And my thing, and I'm like, guys, that's a dumb thing. That's a dumb, like, I don't know who came up with this idea, but I don't think this thing works at all.
Because first of all, I don't think agency, I mean, well call it network agency or even independent agencies. How the hell are you gonna afford these guys? Because I mean, if you have, 'cause we have nano, we have Micro, we have macro, a lot of these guys are now saying. They need to have these guys in-house.
Um, and I'm like, but guys, how? Because if you do a campaign, so you are working on a, on a, on a Heineken brand campaign or whatever, um, you, you, you, you're gonna be hiring say nano. Nano. Yeah. Nano. Maybe they're cheap. Maybe they, they're affordable, you can afford them, you can give them whatever, a package and whatnot.
But now how are you? And, and and also the thing also that a lot of these guys, particularly the micro, the macro guys, you are not gonna be able to hire these guys within agency. You, first of all, you won't be able to afford them. Second of all, you are also going to kill how they work because now you have to, now there's gonna be, have to be a bureaucracy, how agency move and all of that.
You are gonna have to now give them set rules. 'cause these guys remember these guys when, on a Tuesday night, they're out there partying and, and, and doing their stuff. Tomorrow morning they're report to, to an office. No. That's right. They wake up 12 o'clock or 11:11 AM they, they, they got their hangover, you know, they, they, they don't, they, they're not about reporting to an agency nine o'clock in the morning or eight o'clock in the morning.
So I, I feel like this does not work at all, um, yet. And I, and I've been very unpopular when I say like, guys, this is crazy. This idea that you're gonna be hiring content creators within agency landscape. It's, it's, it's madness. I think let's just stop all of this thing. I know that, uh, uh, there's a lot of, uh, uh, uh, uncertainty.
There's a lot of, like, maybe these guys are also eating into the pie, but, hey man, I think let's be, because the reality is that these guys, they don't also understand how, uh, uh, they, they don't understand certain things about, about building a brand, right? They just have one thing. They just, they just have, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, following.
They have like the following. Yeah. Right. And that their lawyer for following, but they still don't know how to craft. They don't know, they don't know strategy. They, they don't know a lot of things. They can't, they can't build a brand end to end, you know what I mean? So, so, so we shouldn't, we shouldn't, we shouldn't be worried about these guys, you know?
Um, I mean, maybe taking over the industry because some guys are saying, yeah, these guys are gonna take over. No, they're not gonna take over. Let's just let these guys be independent in their own, right. Mm-hmm. And let's do what we gotta do as an industry, you know? And then, and I think also, uh, let's, let's, let's amplify, you know, let's, let's, let's deliver on the, on the, on, on the results.
Let's, let's, let's, let's do all of that. You know what I mean?
LT: You're making a lot of se uh, everything you said makes sense, uh, Tebogo. And as you're telling the background to it, you know what was in my mind, and we've seen it here too, that if you're, uh. Again, we'll use the old school term ad agency, but if you're a marketing agency, whatever that agency is, you now more than ever, you always had to, but now more than ever, you better have.
Value that you have built in, that the client immediately sees and understands and then values back. And so if, if you don't have the wherewithal to communicate that value, you're in trouble. And so t the the panic response to your point is to hire these people, but that's not really what it's about. They need to be the, they need to be the, um, I'm talking the agencies here, the place where they're the experts in who, like you said, the, the confluence of what the brand and, and the strategy is, and then what's the manifestation of the creative.
And they're gonna pull in different strings and they need to understand both and have their feet fully planted in both areas so they have the value back to the client. What's happening is many clients. Both, maybe some who are sophisticated and some are not, aren't seeing the value that the agencies should have, and that's why they're saying, well, do I need them?
Let's skip over them. That's my view of what's, what's sort of happening. Um, we'd love to hear yours and DC's perspective on that.
DC: Yeah. I I Now go, go ahead. Go, go ahead. Go ahead. Tebogo, uh, Larry threw it to you. Yeah, sorry.
Teboho Kakurupa: So, so, so what ha what's happened is that I think, I think agencies have been com com very complacent for a long time, I think.
LT: Right?
Teboho Kakurupa: And, and, and, and, and, and, and things like the influence, I mean the, the creator economy, ai, it is kind of like, kind of like now making it clear that I think agency. Has has become very co it, it, it, it, it has been very complacent for a long time. And I think the cracks are starting now to show that actually guys, you haven't been doing what you're supposed to be doing.
You just, you've just been doing bare minimum. And that's why now a lot of these guys are gonna found, shaking their boots because they haven't, you know, pulled their, you know, and, and, and, and it's, it, it's a sad, sad, sad reality. And some of these, these guys are wanna be on like, yeah, no, we know what you're doing, blah, blah, these guys, no, come on now.
Be punch way above, you know, like, do do what you gotta do and, and, and, and you cannot be doing things the same way. How you've been doing them, uh, uh, um, 10 years ago and we've seen now, uh, WPP, the model, the, the business model, which is like the traditional advertising agency, traditional, it, it, that, it doesn't work anymore. Agreed. WP is 70, is 71% down in profits, particularly because of how we are, I mean, how, how the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the business is set up, uh, in the sense that we not embracing the nuance.
Um, and, and, and, and, and well, correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like the model. The, the, the old model does not work. The, we need to embrace ai. We need to embrace the greater economy. We need to embrace all the other things. And I'm, and I'm just mentioning these two, but there's many other things, right? Um, the time sheets, the time sheets, uh, uh, uh, uh, strategy or the time sheet ideation or whatever.
It's gone guys, it's over. We need to, we need to say less. And, and, and also a big, big agency model. It does not work. I think being a leaner agency, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, shrinking. 'cause some of these big agency model, it, it, there's no, some of these guys are not agile. This big, big, big whatever, crack. It takes long to turn around things and oh yeah, it does not work.
LT: Yeah. I'd love to hear DC's point of view on this.
DC: Great point. Going back to your core question. Thank you, Larry. What are our thoughts regarding agencies wanting to bring on content creators to be a part of the agency structure? That is one of the dumbest ideas I have heard in a very long time, and I'm going to tell you why.
Uh, Tebogo, Larry and Brand Nerds, why I think it is idiotic. The first content creators and influencers are experts at building their brand, not your brand. Yep. A hundred percent full stop. To to attempt to, uh, have a content creator and influencer become an expert at building your brand as, as you would want to do it, I think is full heart.
LT: Yep.
DC: It's transactional. I pay you as a client and then you talk about my brand more. It used to be that you talked about my brand organically and I did not pay you, but now, oh, I've done social listening Tebogo and Larry, and through my social listening I have picked up that you are talking about my brand and you have you 3 million followers.
So now I'm gonna do a deal with you and pay you to talk more about my brand. Yeah. So that's number one. Uh, content creators are are expert at experts at creating their own brand, not your brand. The second reason is that you talked about agile.
Teboho Kakurupa: Yeah.
DC: The content creator today on September 24th, 2025, who might have 10 million followers.
Is not the same content creator on September 24th, 2026, who will have 10 million followers, right? They're gonna be different. This thing switches and turns over so quickly. So even if the agencies onboarded 100 of the top influencers in the auto automotive industry, I'm making it up, 90 of them are going to be different a year from now.
So now you have a structure that has onboarded folks and you gotta kick 'em out when they start losing their, um, uh, their, their view, their followers and views, et cetera. So it's dumb. It it, it's dumb for those reasons. I will say this. I look at nature, I look at things that the most high is created as a way to better help me understand business.
You talked about AI has not been in a room where a baby is born. It takes nine months on average for a child to be born. Now, they could be a little bit before that, a little bit after that, but typically nine month window, you can go a bit above or before, but the steps are the same. What's happening now is the clients are skipping steps and so is the agency.
And one of the critical steps is what's the fucking brief?
LT: Yep,
DC: yep. What is the brief and how does that map back to what you said, strategy. So I believe that what's happening with the agencies and the clients is they've all, they both become lazy and in their intellectual laziness, they're looking at content creators and influencers to help them save their businesses and brands.
That's what I think.
LT: Here, here. Totally agree. I I think we, I think we realized that the model. Ain't working either. And so the, the, the content creators to DC's point, they're very fickle. They're not gonna be all of a sudden be, be, uh, brand strategists. And so this thing has to be figured out. Ultimately, it goes back well, DC and I always say this ultimately goes back to the client, to having the, the savviness to understand who their brand is, what their brand positioning is, and then writing that brief and figuring out then who's gonna be the best partners for them.
Great point. Larry. It all, it all goes back to that.
DC: Brand positioning foundation.
LT: Bingo.
DC: Glad you said that, Larry.
LT: Alright, this is amazing guys. What, what a to, Tebogo. That was a great topic. Thanks for bringing that up. That was truly a great topic. We're gonna segue into the learnings portion here and, uh, man Tebogo, you've been just awesome.
This is a great conversation. I have a number of learnings, um, and I'm gonna run through them. Um, I have five. Okay, so number one, be culture led. And there's two steps to being culture led brand nerds. The first step of that is to understand the foundation of the culture for the target market. And then number two is then figure out how this translates into the target markets culture.
How does it imbue itself in it? You've gotta get those two things for any brand. That's, that's really important. So that's the first learning. Second one is that too much information can be your faux, not your friend. That's number two. Number three, do not be led by the dollars. Do not get sucked in by the dollars.
Follow your passions and the money will follow. Number four, I, um, this is a quote to Bogo said, he said something larger, but I love the, the, uh, um. The, just the pithy part of this tech has never fallen in love and had its heart broken. That's just awesome. And then the last one, and brand nerds. This is so important in anything you do.
Self-belief is the core of everything you do. Those are mine. Great stuff Tebogo.
DC: Outstanding, Larry. Outstanding. Okay, thank you. T Tebogo, my brother. I love this part of the program. For me, this is about truly understanding what's behind the eyes, what's in the soul of the guest. I take a attempt at articulating what I believe the wonderful human being before me offers to the world that none of the other 8 billion people can offer to the world in the way the guest can offer to the world.
And I'm attempt to do that with you today. In the get comfy section. Uh, I'm, I'm overlapping by the way, with Larry. In the get comfy section, you talked about an answer to the question of, I asked you a question. How do you get unstuck when you're writing something, creating something, a strategy? You said you, you, you are culture led and you go to the local culture things, concerts, uh, uh, a store talking to someone who was a proprietor.
You get into the local of it all to understand the culture. Culture led. When we got to the five questions we ask you, what's your first branding experience where you fell in love and you talked about, uh, and this petroleum ad that was done where this 6-year-old boy was putting petrol in their little car in the house, and then.
That thing revs up and hits the door, knocks the door handles off, and the mom's wondering what, what's going on the kid's like, wow. And then here you are going, ah, you tell your grandmother, I want to make little movies. What's your grandmother's name, by the way? Uh, CEDIA. Cedia. Is she still with
Teboho Kakurupa: us? Yeah.
DC: No, she's, she's long gone. I think she, uh, it's been over 10 years now. Been over 10 years. Okay. Rest in power. Cedia.
Teboho Kakurupa: Yeah.
DC: The next, you talked about an answer to the question of who's had the most influence in your career. You talked about Claire.
LT: Yeah.
DC: And, uh, the teacher in Shanghai and how you were there for three years and how she advocated for you.
You could have come home, but she, no, Claire said, you, you, you, you must stay and you said you get to work on real briefs. Yeah. That, that's why you stayed. You got to work on real briefs. Yeah. And then finally, uh, uh, you talked about this AI thing again, Larry Overlap. AI has never been in a room where a baby is born, never fallen in love, never had heartbroken.
And as I thought about those three things, some of the best movies that have ever been created have been created based on those three things.
LT: Yes.
DC: Having your heart broken, falling in love, having a baby, the the annals are full of these kinds of cinematic things. And I thought that example on AI li linked right back to you wanting to make, and you have been doing this.
Making little movies, which then led me to this In the continent of Africa, perhaps the most notable cinema person maker of movies in the history of the continent is Usman Simbe. Have you ever heard of him? Usman Simbe? Yeah, sure. Okay. No, I don't. No, that's okay. Look him up. He's, uh, he's Senegalese.
Senegalese. He is known Tebogo as the father of African cinema. Mm-hmm. He's known as the Father of Africa. Sentiment. Mm-hmm. I'm going to read to you a quote. Yeah. That he has. Uh, and it is this, there is not one culture for Senegal, one for Molly. One for the Ivory Coast, there are only the different facets to a mosaic of richness.
That's his quote. This is the same thing you were saying about 12 languages in South Africa. Many there are Chinese, South Africa, there are white South Africans. They're black South Africans. Yet there is a South Africanness in all of you. This is your culture led approach to business and marketing and advertising.
Therefore, I believe that you Tebogo are the Usman Sim of little movies. That's what I believe you are.
Teboho Kakurupa: Thank you. That's awesome. Thank you DC Thank you. That's awesome actually. Hey. Hey man. That's awesome. And I think I wanted to say, I wanted to say, um, get this, so I think, you know, sorry. I mean, if you still have time, so when, so, so, so when I got to clear my first ever campaign, and, and, and, and Larry, you were talking about it earlier when you were doing my intro, that, that very first campaign, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, that won the, the, the JI Award in the uk Yeah.
In, in the uk. Mm-hmm. The main aware was the very first, the, the, the best advertising campaign that I've ever laid. The, my very first that went on to win an award, that was my first advertising campaign, by the way. Wow. So, so that's incredible.
LT: So, yeah. So Tebogo, before we sign off, anything that you wanna impart that you've learned from the conversation we've had with you today?
Teboho Kakurupa: Um, sure. I quite a lot. I mean, hey, I mean, I, I, I didn't know about the, the Osman, uh, Osman, who you see sim ban Ban. Yeah. I, I, yeah. Well, I didn't know about, uh, that he's actually, uh, uhm,
DC: I'm gonna put it in the chat. Go ahead, brother.
Teboho Kakurupa: Yeah. One of the greatest guy in the, in the, um, in, in, like, in the cinema, um, in the movie world.
I, I don't know. Didn't know. Um, and what did I learn? I mean, sure. I, I, I think I learned about myself that I've done so much, so, so many things. I, I, I, I, I never really look into myself like that, you know? I just, I just, yeah. Um, but I think, I think I, I think also what I've also realized here that we, we kind of like, I think, you know, I thought, I, I thought my thoughts were just my thoughts alone.
Um, and I think what you've, what what, what you've echoed here today, it just kind of say, oh, okay. I'm, I'm actually not going crazy. Um, I think DC what you just spoke about now with the, with the, with the, with the, with the, with the content creators. Mm-hmm. Uh, and you, Larry, what you just kind of like extrapolated on that.
I think it's like, okay, wow, this so, so, I I'm not losing my mind. No, no. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm right on the money, you know? Um, um, so that's, that's, that's kind of like opened my, my, my, my mind after to say, oh, okay, I, I'm onto something and I'm glad that you guys are, are seeing it in that light as well. You know what I mean?
Mm-hmm.
LT: So, so yeah, this, this has been awesome. Uh, it's goes far too fast Tebogo when we have great conversations like this. We're gonna go to the close here, Jade. So, Hey.
DC: Hey Larry. Can I just say this one thing before we go to the close?
LT: Sure, sure.
DC: Uh, brand nerds, uh, Tebogo. If you can find your first campaign that won that award, we will include a link to that Yes, in when we drop this podcast so that they can see it.
LT: That's a great call. D, that's a great call. Thank you to
DC: Bojo. Alright, Larry, sorry about the interruption.
LT: That's all good. So brand nerd. Thanks for listening to Brands, beats and Bites, the executive producers of Jeff Shirley, Darryl "DC" Cobbin, Larry Taman, Hailey Cobbin, Jade Tate and Tom Dioro.
DC: The pod.
LT: And if you do like this podcast, please subscribe and share. And for those on Apple podcast if you are so inclined. We love those excellent reviews. We hope you enjoyed this podcast and we look forward to next time where we will have more insightful and enlightening talk about marketing.