The Chris Grace Show

Matt Donnelly is a magician who is both amazing and amazingly funny, but he was a comedian first. A few years ago he took the plunge to become a professional magician, and since then he's performed on Penn & Teller Fool Us and is touring with The Foolers. He also hosts the Ice Cream Social and Abracababble podcasts, both of which are huge hits and highly entertaining. He's one of the most thoughtful performers I know and he's got insight to offer about changing careers, making people laugh, and how to handle it when you meet your fans!

You can email the show at podcast@chrisgrace.com and join the community at https://club.chrisgrace.com

I thought this quote was relevant: "Success hinges less on getting everything right than on how you handle getting things wrong." - Michelle Russel

Have a great day.

What is The Chris Grace Show?

Comedian, actor, musician, and software engineer Chris Grace interviews the most interesting people that he can find. In a world of narrowcasting, granular demographic analysis, and algorithmic content pre-determinism, why not treat yourself to a good old-fashioned conversation?

[00:00:00]

Chris: Matt Donnelly. Welcome to the Chris Grace Show.

Matt: Oh, thanks so much for having me. I'm thrilled to be here.

Chris: Uh, so we're, it seems like we're both waking up

Matt: Sure. Yes. See, you saw me finish my breakfast and I

Chris: Yeah, that's.

Matt: here.

Chris: That's right. You are currently in Salt Lake City. Oh, no, west Jordan

Matt: I'm in West Jordan, Utah. Yeah. Which, uh, which means I'm an hour later, which means I'm, I'm an hour lazier than

you are if we're both waking up.

Chris: Wow. You're cracking that noon, you're really like, uh, no. No kids around. I'm sleeping in until

Matt: +that's+

+a hundred percent it. I was like, uh, and I did three shows last night, so I was like, I was authentically tired as an, as an aging

male.

Chris: You .So you're performing at Mystique in West Jordan.

Matt: yes.

Chris: Uh, what does three shows that, what, what does that mean? Uh, when you say you did three shows,

Matt: So it's different than say, the magic Castle. Like the Magic Castle. I'll do three shows a night. Uh, but they're 20 minute sets out here. You do 45 minute sets. Uh, so I'll do, they have a parlor [00:01:00] room that's kinda like a high end. They each, everyone's had like this high end five course meal. And then I come out at the end, like, uh, a play thing for the rich, and I do, uh, a little 45 minute set there.

But then they also have this thing called the Prestige Theater, which is a little more low key on the dining end, but it's a, it's a stage, it's like a proper stage. So it feels more like doing a standup set environment than a fancy parlor. And so I got to do different things, uh, that I wouldn't do in a parlor.

Like the very first time I played a mystique location. Uh, the big trick I used to always close my sets with in standup clubs when I was opening for piff was this thing where I would have weight prediction and duct tape on my chest and stomach with different predictions, and I would rip off the duct tape and chuck it on somebody who would get grossed out in the front row, which I haven't done since Covid.

Um,

Chris: uh, yeah. Cuz that caused Covid, right?

Matt: I think so I, I, I, I, I bought my duct tape from Wuhan, and so that's why I think they trace it back to there, um, . But, uh, [00:02:00] uh, and, and I was playing Folsom and it's that that parlor is even more intimate than the Utah location. And so I was like, these people just paid a lot of money for this like, high-end meal and I'm ripping duct tape off my chest and belly.

I literally went back, uh, to the booker after the first show. She's like, how'd it go? I was like, good. I think I'm gonna cut the weight prediction bit. I think it's weird to do that at close range

Chris: And then they were like, no, that's why we booked you, we booked you for that one trick

Matt: we are,

we're here to clone you.

Chris: so Matt and I have known each other for a long time, um, and we both go way back to, uh, improv in the New York City scene. I was thinking about when I was prepping for this interview, and that's, that's, uh, that word is doing a lot of heavy lifting.

When I say prep

Matt: When you're washing your hands and you're like, I'm gonna

Chris: Yeah. Yeah. When I wa um, no, but I was thinking. A couple things. One is, um, [00:03:00] do you like, I feel like, like I feel like there was a tra so, so anyway, you used to be a long form improviser. Uh, I mean, you still are, but that was your main thing, and then you shifted.

Matt: I was a zealot is what I would say. I was a

long form zealot. Yeah.

Chris: Uh, and now you've shifted to your primary career is as a magician.

And I think there was a transitional period where it was like, you know, Matt Donnelly, um, he's like a magician who was a comedian who, you know, comes from comedy, but he's a comedian and it's like, uh, you know, he's, uh, there, there are a lot of like, um, almost like training wheels built, built into like the framing around you, you know?

And now I feel like it's just, do you feel like you are now? It is just Matt Donnelly magician.

Matt: Um,

I think I'm getting there. I think it's close. You know, um, I think like, it's funny, like I got to, like, I'm very spoiled, first of all, so, so, you know, you know me from comedy, which means, you know, how much we, you know, I struggled to gain [00:04:00] footing in things that paid well, uh, in comedy. Uh, and so, uh, that's why I got to like, turn to magic was cause I was, I never quite

Chris: Yeah.

Matt: like some of our fr you know, like you and some of our friends have done.

Uh, and you know, uh, so I do think it, it helps, you know, tremendously, but, but I think like, it's weird because I got to open for Piff for 60 shows on the road and that was incredible. But like, no one gave me credit for that, but that was the hardest and coolest and most

legit thing. Like, I was going out in front of crowd after crowd that was not expecting an opener and I was. Really trying to figure out how to like, get people in a comedy club to like magic tricks, you

Chris: Mm-hmm.

Matt: And like, so that gave me an unbelievable confidence with it. Uh, but honestly it wasn't until I played the Magic Castle, um, that everyone was like, oh, he is doing

this.[00:05:00]

Chris: Uhhuh, .Wait, wasn't that, was that at, was that the time I saw you after the lockdown?

Matt: I yeah. 2021

Chris: Oh, okay.

Matt: That one. Yeah. Yeah.

Chris: So this feels re recent. This, this feel of like,

Matt: Yes.

Chris: I, you know, you know, there's this, there's an idea of like magicians guilt, um, of, of like where magicians feel somewhat exposed at a part of their performance that's vulnerable to like an audience figuring out what's going on, but, do you, have you shed this, uh, comedian to magicians, guilt or something like of owning it, I guess is what I'm asking?

Matt: Yes, I think I have. Um, you know what, I'd honestly say that it was, um, it was coming outta the pandemic. I. Was working with, uh, Penn and Teller, right? They were about to relaunch their show after the lockdown and they [00:06:00] waited, they closed down right away and they waited a very long time to come back. Um, and then I went to be like, oh, like, they basically were like, Hey man, if you wanna hang out for rehearsals and stuff, we'd love to have you around, kind of thing.

And when I show up the first rehearsal, it was me, uh, Matt King and Jeff McBride, uh, are invited to hang as Penn and Teller reconstruct their show, right? And then the next day I show up and there's no Matt King, there's no Jeff McBride, and I'm just watching. And then at the end of that rehearsal teller was like, Matt, do you have notes?

And I was like, yeah, I took some notes. He goes, okay. And Teller gathers, everyone gathers the crew, uh, the lighting, the, the whatever, and everybody and I sit in front of the entire pen teller crew and I start going over all their stuff and it's. Valid, surprisingly valid. Like people are like, oh, okay. And like, and suddenly like the whole machine is moving around, things I'm bringing up, you know?

Chris: Yeah.

Matt: the next day I come in and I [00:07:00] start saying stuff and it's the same thing. And suddenly I am really helping facilitate Penn and Teller's comeback from the pandemic. And it's very bizarre. It is not something I thought I was gonna do. And then by the end teller was like, we've never really had a director like you, and it's really great.

And I was like, director

Chris: Ghost. Yeah.

Matt: you know, and, and I think then, and then kind of like realizing that like, One, as I, I share an unbelievable amount of sensibilities of pen and teller who have had an outsized influence on, on everything getting into magic. Uh, but, uh, feeling like I got to return the favor a little bit. Uh, and then that's where I really started to kind of feel like at least I, I got a, a more anchored sense of the lane I'm in.

And so then I started to be more confident as a comedy magician.

Chris: I relate so much to the feeling you have of you were working in comedy, you know, I mean, in the long form world. Like you have [00:08:00] this feeling like, I know I'm good. Like I know what, I know what I'm talking about. And, um, the, the feeling of like not getting traction in the way that you.

is so frustrating. Um, and then, but then what happens is it seems like you have sort of like stealth come into magic with this like decades long experience of watching performances and giving people useful feedback on them. And so you're almost like a ringer coming into this situation of like, can you watch a performance and take notes?

Yeah. You've been paid, you know,

Matt: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

Chris: $40 an hour by eight Indie improv

Matt: yeah. Like I know how to write,

Chris: thousand times

Matt: I know how to write bigger, all caps, print in the dark when I can't look down, cuz the lights, it's like, I know, I know. Little, little dumb things that you think don't, don't, won't hold up from taking notes, watching

improv shows that

Chris: yeah. But also what I find poignant about that is [00:09:00] like, um, uh, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong about this, but like from a, from a outside point of view, in a way, it wasn't like you had like. . Um, earned, not earned is too loaded. I, I don't, I I

Matt: That's fine. No, no, but I, I, I, I, I, I, I,

sense this, so yeah,

Chris: it, it wasn't like you had earned the spot to be like, Hey, I'm a director.

I'm a great director. I'm gonna director show. Um, uh, you, you hadn't like, uh, demonstrated that like, Hey, I'm the dude that comes in and like, show doctors up your performance, whatever. Right. Part of what, what I find poignant is there's a moment where Penn and Teller who are these like, like two of the greatest magicians of all time, um, sort of endow you with the respect to say like, Hey, you're just another person.

You're by default, we think your input is valuable. And then you rose to that occasion. So like, you certainly earned it in that moment. But what I find [00:10:00] poignant is lately I've been thinking about how many sort of sliding doors, moments in our lives

Matt: Oh yeah.

Chris: depend on these. A person just. There wasn't a way for you to like, um, steam your steamroll your way to that opportunity.

They had to sort of like gently like embrace you in it, you know what I mean?

Matt: Oh yeah, for sure. I mean, first off, I've been around them for, and I was for about 13 years, you know, and I started as an intern for them on their discovery channel. You know, and even that, like, I wasn't even the original, the first co-host of Penn's podcast, I was the second host that kind of came in to fill in, but then they liked me, so they kept me around.

Like everything's been incredibly slow and earned over the years that I just, and even with, even, even with their live show, like their Live Vegas show was the post pandemic. I was un fools as a writer every season. And I had things to say to them here or there when [00:11:00] they were doing their tricks for Fool, um, if I noticed something, you know, watching on the truck or whatever. But like even that, they still worked with me Un Fools, but not on their stage show. There was still like a distinct barrier between those things. And then now I work on their state show after, you know, it was like after, after seven seasons of Fool Us, you know? So like, it's, it's been like this kind of slow deal.

And part of it is that they've, they had an

embarrassment of riches always around

Chris: Well that, yeah, I'm sure

Matt: Uh, there's no, you know, but it was, it is in, you know, and darkly, if it's true, is that Johnny Thompson, their director, passed away, you know, and so they've been, they kept rotating different people, and I just happened to, one of this is they, I was in that groove, so I just happened to be like the 11th or 12th person they reached out to, to just hang her in their orbit, uh, all trying to fill that vacuum left by

Johnny.

Chris: Uh, well first of all, I think, uh, you actually kind of disprove the premise of my question, which is you actually, you did [00:12:00] earn it, like in a, in a, I mean, if it takes 13 years, then you did earn

Matt: Oh, that's true. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I never assured myself, I never said like, Hey, you know, who'd be good for this me? Or, Hey, it looks like you guys are looking for whatever. I just kept, yeah. Yeah. I never, because they are legends, I never assumed that I

could do it.

Chris: but also credit to people who, there's a lot of situations where if you were the intern on a TV show, it's people have trouble sometimes seeing people transition from one role to another, you

Matt: Yes. Uh, that's where Penn and Teller are amazing. I mean, I think even their manager, I think started off as someone who just worked for them, who's now been their manager for years. They let people kind of, uh, rise up or whatever. Um, it is, they, they are great examples of people to be around as entertainers and show

business for sure.

For that, you know?

Chris: Was your move to magic driven by like the need to, to bring in money.

Matt: Yes. yes. Uh, I, and, and it sounds so [00:13:00] cold, but it really was like so un fools, right? I, I, I have to, or before the pandemic, you know, when we had live audiences, whatever, I chatted with every magician. uh, before they chatted with the host. So the first season with Jonathan Ross, and then every other season's been Alison Hannigan.

And it was the sense of like, oh my God, I'm just talking to professional person after a professional person and they all just make a living and they don't need a, a whole bunch of fame. And I, and comedy is so hard and cruel. So was, it was me mouthing off the pen that started it, it was me going like, all these, uh, this is your, this is your podcast.

So I'm gonna tell the story. The, the, the, the way I never tell it.

Chris: Okay.

Matt: I'll say, I said, all these motherfuckers get to make a living doing magic. And like, I can like barely get by in comedy. Like it's very, it's very annoying to be around, you know, whatever.

Chris: Hmm.

Matt: And Penn was kind of [00:14:00] like, uh, well, Basically like magic's harder than you think.

So he basically was like, why don't you try learning one goddamn trick first ? And I was like, fair

enough. And then

Chris: Was that conversation, was that

conversation in person or was that on the pod? On his podcast.

Matt: person, it was in his dressing room. Uh, cuz it basically was like, you know, like I would like run to Penn's dressing room after any taping because I would get to watch all these performers come through, but I couldn't talk to him about any of the performers ahead of time. So I would like, can't wait to like run scurry to Penn's dressing room to finally like, unload all the things I observed with him, uh, going all with all the performers, going through the process of fool us, you know?

Chris: Uhhuh

Matt: Um, and so it was, uh, it was, it was, it was really just out of that. And then, um, Uh, I legit was working on 50 Shades, the parody, uh, the show that you started off Broadway. Um, I was, uh, stage managing that show and understudying, cuz that's the kind [00:15:00] of outfit we ran. Um, and, uh, and it was closing and then the show called Opium was opening up at the Cosmopolitan and I was gonna be brought in as a comedy consultant for that show.

And there was about a five month gap there. And, uh, uh, I didn't, I, I know to get, I had to get some kind of job, but I didn't want to get a job that I definitely was gonna quit in five months cause I definitely was gonna do the Opium show. Um, and so, uh, at the time I took pens there and I was working with Johnny Thompson on Magic here and there.

Like, once in a while we get together and just work on magic tricks and working on fools. I developed a, a a a, a huge curiosity of magic that I didn't have before. Fools. you know, like I, I understood, I loved Penn and Teller. I also loved not knowing how their tricks worked. In fact, when I wrote with them on other projects, it was me not knowing anything about magic.

That gave me an edge in the writer's room, you know? So I'd be like, look, I don't know how to like float a chicken, but if we had like a floating chicken here, that'd be great. You know? [00:16:00] Uh, and I just write stuff and be like, you, you magic guys. Figure it out.

You know? Um,

Chris: like, oh, well we gotta use an a keto chicken.

Matt: yes, exactly. . Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris: Of course, of course we gotta,

Matt: do we have an ASRA for a chicken? Do we have a Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, uh, I, I was really kind of like, um, uh, desperate and I was like, I bet I could. I bet, I bet if Johnny's teaching me tricks and I tell Penn and Teller, Johnny's been working with me on magic, I bet I can get them teaching me one trick each.

And if they, if they both teach me one trick each, then everyone's gonna teach me one trick each. Cuz if I say, Johnny Thompson, Penn and Teller are all teaching me magic, everyone else, and I'm gonna do a show, everyone else is gonna say yes, . And that's what happened. That's what happened. So I did a crowdfunded show with seven magicians, taught me seven magistrates, and I performed a

show.

Chris: Right. I mean, it's an insane story.

Matt: it's insane cuz it's a, it's a, it's, it's, it's [00:17:00] born outta desperateness. And I've been desperate many times. And it's one of the things where I took a leap and it worked, and everyone else reads those stories and like, you know what I, that's great. And what they don't know is that, like, I've taken that leap probably six other times and fell flat on my face, , you know, like you don't start magic at 39 because everything else worked. Do you know, like

Chris: Oh my God.

Matt: you know, I threw all of my.

Chris: want to, I almost don't want to think about the implications of that statement.

Matt: I, you know, like I threw all my money, uh, college money into, uh, uh, a TV pilot, an improv TV pilot that failed. You know, I, I saved up a bunch of money and we, and, and we went to Edinboro with Neutrino, and I lost five grand, you know? Uh, and then we met with everyone. We met with everyone. We met with the bbc, we met with nbc, we met with, I mean, so many cable networks, and it came out [00:18:00] with nothing, you know, and there's so many times where I thought I was gonna take some kind of leap or make some kind of move and, uh, you know, getting cast in shows or whatever, or pilots, and it just never happened.

And so this was, but, but, but we, we speak this language, right? We only know how to take big swings. That's why you're in the show business. And so this big swing was, was ridiculously successful. Pi, the Magic Dragon taught me a trick. And then Pi, the Magic Dragon, saw my show and was like, you should come out with me on the road.

And then, That made me more legit. You talk about like moving how people see you, so there's no way I would've gotten un fool as like, Hey, I've been doing magic on my own. But when I was touring with Piff, that made the producers go like, you've been touring with Piff. And I'd be like, yeah, it's great. And I have this one trick that would be great on the show, you know?

And they, they took it, you know, but it, it took that change of, of perception to get that going. But touring with Piff, getting on fullest did

everything for me.[00:19:00]

Chris: Yeah, I mean I see that Piff tour as like your Beatles, Germany

Matt: Yes. Yeah, Yeah, yeah,

Chris: did, got reps in like a pretty high pressure situation.

Matt: Very high pressure. I, there's nothing like it still now. Standup clubs are the hardest

places to perform, and that's why like

Chris: wait. That's what I'm

doing.

Matt: I know, I know what is, and it's why, like, so if I say I'm in comedy or com, standup comedians hate when I say I'm in comedy. Right. Or like, like they're kinda like, you don't do standup.

Shut up.

I hate your guts. Right? Like, and, and, and they're

Chris: hate when other

standups say they're

in comedy.

Matt: because it's brutal, you know? And the, the environment of performing standup is brutal. And then the world behind standup is brutal. And those are, it's two different brutalities, but the onstage brutality is, is crazy.

Like if you, if you waste, if you waste five seconds of a standup audience's time, they turn on you, they start to hate your

guts.

Chris: yeah, I I [00:20:00] waste a lot of people's time on stage. I , i, I, I waste, uh, in improv shows, I waste a lot of other improviser's time as well. Um, something struck me about what you said when you, when you said that out loud to Penn. Penn, which is like, all these guys make this money. Like, I could just do this as well.

And he's like, it's harder than you think. It actually kind of strikes me that you both were right. Um,

Matt: Right? That's

true. Yeah.

Chris: like if you, uh, so for, so you're on the masterclass that Penn and Teller

Matt: Yes.

Chris: and

Matt: see how bad I

am

Chris: you can see that magic is harder than you think it is, um, because.

this is what I mean, I think is so fascinating to me about your entire journey is because when I saw you at the Parlor, the last time I saw you, you were at the same level of performance that I used to see you in like neutrino, or when we did, uh, [00:21:00] you know, faculty shows together

Matt: yes. Yeah, yeah,

Chris: and then, but there was a dip in the middle where in that masterclass, it's not like it's Matt at his top performance level and he is making a couple mistakes or whatever and they're correcting him like that.

It's like, you seem really nervous in that masterclass video.

Matt: I am. , you know, uh uh, no, that's the thing that's like, I, I is when, when that I had, I had such a mix of emotions when I came through that masterclass. We were touring with Piff and they called, they're like, we wanna put you guys both on the masterclass. Um, and, and you, excuse me, you Penn and teller Johnny Thompson, and we're gonna do it.

And I was like, oh, okay, great. You know? And I was like, just going back and forth with different church I was working on and Johnny Thompson taught me chop cup right away in my first show. And I cut it cuz it was too hard for me to do magic technique-wise. Um, which is any magician listening will laugh cuz it's not considered hard to many people.

Um, but it was hard [00:22:00] for me. And, and so I was working on it like crazy. And then in the, when I, uh, when when the producers wanted see it, I showed it to 'em in the hallway and I nailed it.

And I literally go like, oh

Chris: oh no.

Matt: I just nailed the hallway performance for the producers. There's no way. And then I get out there and I'm like, you know, I've been going out with Piff, I've been doing all this other stuff, but I hadn't tried to do magic in front of Penn and Teller since the first show I did.

And that first show was a disaster. And like a lot of my tricks went wrong. And I was like, and it was my first magic show ever. Do not do your first magic show in front of Penn and Teller. And then, uh, uh, I did that and then, uh, uh, and then I'm back and I'm like, oh God, they're gonna watch me do magic again.

And it's a show that, it's a trick that Johnny taught me and I'm trying. And then there, it was my first time I was trying to move from the character I was playing to being me, but I hadn't done any shows. Enough shows is me to know what I was really doing. So it was me [00:23:00] experimenting with just being me for the first time.

And then you're on that stage and Masterclass is a big outfit. I mean, I'm surrounded by just very expensive equipment, a lot of staff, and it just goes quiet. You know, when you go on an audition, you're like, I wanna nail this audition. And suddenly the air just goes thin in the room and you're like, oh no.

Like before you start, you're like, I'm gonna be terrible right now and there's nothing I can do. Like, like I just went there and they're like, and they started to sit up and started to get really quiet. And I'm surrounded by all of these cameras, all this equipment, Penn Teller and Johnny Thompson sitting in their chairs looking at me.

And I go like, oh no, this is about to go ho. . And, uh, and it does, I honestly, and this is the truth, and this is the, I honestly almost passed out while we were shooting

that.

uh, when Penn says, here, Penn Penn's like, here wear my jacket. And he gets his jacket off and he, and he takes it off. My drama brain was like, oh my gosh, object exchange.

This is a significant moment. Um, [00:24:00] I was like, and I was like, oh God. And I put the thing and I literally felt the, the, the blood leaving my head and I don't ever get like that. So I was like, this isn't like, it can't be like, just like the other time I almost passed out. There was no other time I've almost passed out from sheer, just standing there and uh, and I struggled through it.

And when it was over the masterclass people were so happy

and I was.

Chris: Of course they were. They got such good footage.

Matt: And I literally was like, oh God, that means that I really was as bad as I thought because they were like, pen and tell were just all over it. And Johnny, there was, everybody was taking turns just getting so much and they was so lit up and they were really just trying to get some good performance out of me.

And they were really invested. And it made Masterclass people go like, yes, yes, . And so I was like, oh God. You know? And it's one of those things where I was like, this could be a big break for me. And no it's [00:25:00] not. It's just good for masterclass and it's good for everyone else, but it's not

good for me.

Chris: Well also, I mean potentially not good for you in the sense of people have these at, at that stage in your career, people have these doubts about like, who is this dude like from comedy? Alright, let me take a look at him in this masterclass. And then like for, I wonder if some magicians, that's like the first time they saw you.

Matt: Yes. Well, and that's magicians bring it up. You know, they're like, are you're in the masterclass, right? I'm always like, oh God, yes. Yeah. So that's when I, that's when I realized that I have come far. Cause and I'm like, all right, come see my show. You know? Like you can come see my show and you tell me

how I am from that masterclass.

Chris: Well, that's why I, so to me it's, uh, and this, I don't want to ruin people's corporate improv gigs, but, um, to me there's a, there's a lie that gets sold with corporate improv gigs, which is like, if you, uh, learn how to do long formm improv, and yes, and this is a skill that can [00:26:00] apply to any other field. And because you have undeniable chops in improv, but you had to develop a separate set of chops for magic that like, it wasn't like your long form improv chops at that masterclass taping we're like, you know what?

I'm fucking up, but I got this. Like, it's like the way you would if a long form show was fucking up.

Matt: Oh, totally. No, no, no. I was, yeah, no, no. I mean, magic you have to rehearse, which is anti longform. Uh, uh, you have to prep, you have to think about things ahead of time, , you know, you have to make sure things are in the things and blocking matters tremendously, uh, and all this stuff. And, and there's a lot of it that doesn't help.

The only thing that does help is like if I mess up a trick on stage, it is not the end of the world to me. Uh, and I can make fun of myself and make the audience laugh with me. In fact, I messed up a trick last night bad. And,

uh, just let, and just let.

Chris: actually, uh, stabbed yourself through the hand,

Matt: That's what I did my first show. That's it. My [00:27:00] first show teller taught me ropes.

I used a knife, I cut my finger open and had to use duct tape, uh, to close

Chris: right.

Matt: I just bled all over the stage and actually got blood on someone else and it

was really gross. And then piffs like tore with me. Well, that's it. Apparently like Piff and Pen just went up to each other after my first show and said, magic is hard.

Huh? They're like, it sure

is.

Chris: Um, has this, uh, has this process, like, does, has it informed your comedy performances or your comedy writing?

Matt: Yeah. Yeah, a little bit. Um, you know, in that like, Everything is a magic trick. You know, like everything is like make believe and, and you're, and you're trying to pull it off or whatever. But it has a lot. I mean, I always understood that magic's, relat, I mean, um, comedy's relationship to tension in the room, but magic, you really have to balance tension, um, because you need tension for the payoff.

And laughter releases tension. So you wanna be funny, [00:28:00] but you also want your tricks to pay off big. So there's, um, so they don't, they don't, they don't fight each other early in a magic trick, but they do fight each other late in a magic trick. And so that's changed, uh, that's changed a lot of how I approach different stuff or whatever.

So I have a different, I have a tremendous sense of tension over imagination now when I improvise versus when I was just an

improvise.

Chris: Right. But for some reason, all of the scene you initiate, like this is a great magic store

Matt: Exactly. Yeah. A lot of it's there. A lot of it. Like, Hey, hey, hey Bunny, you and I are in this hat. We do. I do a lot of those scenes

Chris: I'm just so interested in the way that you've not a common career change.

Matt: No, no, no, no, no. Uh, yeah. And it's funny because like I look at some people like you or whatever. So like any, any of my friends who are in comedy but still seem like they want a little something more, I do kind of go like, Hey, you should [00:29:00] look into magic. You

know? Um,

Chris: Well, uh, I mean, so that, that feeling that you had on Masterclass I had in my two failed Magic Castle auditions because, um, and that's where I viscerally experienced the, oh, I'm nervous at a completely different level than I've ever been, or, or that I have been in like 10 years,

Matt: Now looking back, like you, you've, you told me this story and, and we've had a little bit of change about it, but I've never actually talked to you about it.

Chris: Oh, sure. Ask me. Yeah,

Matt: No. Cause I'm surpri I'm surprised cuz you are always such a laid back and confident performer. And I've seen you wade in the regular improv failures that we've all weighed in, uh, with, with almost like a guilty pleasured confidence.

Like this is

going bad

Chris: yeah,

Matt: I'm gonna keep going.

Chris: yeah, actually I do. I like, I think it's funny when, like, improv shows go really bad, even if, even if I'm in the middle of it.

Matt: That's what I mean. That's what I always loved when any, anytime I was forming the faculty went up the rails. I always knew you were coming like right out. Like I always

knew like you're [00:30:00] initiating the next scene

Chris: And also a lot of times, like in an

improv show, I don't want to like fix the problem a lot of times. A lot of times I'm like, let's fi let's make this worse.

Matt: Exactly like you, you and our friend Tommy Slum. Like if, if it was like a show's going off the rails, I and both of you were in the show. I was like, the show is not going back on the rails. That's not an option.

Chris: Yeah, yeah. I agreed. But yeah, so I think that, um, I mean, I think some of it was just like, I do think that I, I do think that chops have to be, um, developed separately for each field. It's like, why? Like, um, you know, athletes that switch sports, they can't just like go to a different sport and they, you know, they, they an athlete who, um, is, let's say D one going into the pros, they've put in what, like 15 years of whatever into their sport.

So they have a lot of like institutional knowledge about the sport. They have a lot of like technical knowledge about the sport, [00:31:00] but they have this like iceberg under the water of skills and experiences that have built up their relationship to this sport that are, can't really be articulated. And that is the part that I don't think is transferable from one thing to another.

Matt: Yes.

That I

think that's very

true,

Chris: so when I auditioned for the

Castle, like both time, uh, so one time a trick just didn't go right and, and I went into this, the, my first audition thinking, you know, it's cool, is like, I basically like created a trick. Like I, I, there was another trick that had read like in an old book that was kind of an interesting idea.

Um, a and it basically was just like two people, um, giving you numbers. Like, uh, give me number from one to 10, I'll deal this many cards off. And then they're, they're match, their cards are matching. . So it's to show like they're compatible. It's, you

Matt: Yeah, Yeah, yeah, Sympathetic cards or whatever. yeah.

Chris: Yeah. So, uh, [00:32:00]

Matt: But hold on. So, so what, like what did you think the expectation was for the audition? Was it, was it to make up your own trick

Chris: well, it's not clear, but that is definitely not the expectation. I mean, so I don't know if it's changed. Uh, but like at the time that I first auditioned, I probably could have taken four tricks off the shelf and just executed them properly and passed that, that that's probably what

Matt: you're knowing that in hindsight, or you

just didn't wanna do that in the first place?

Chris: I knew that in hindsight, I didn't, I mean, at the time there wasn't not a, there wasn't a lot of like, uh, articulation about like what you're supposed to do, uh, and sometimes conflicting information from people that had done it and also. change the, uh, there were, I actually did audition at a time later. I was told that my auditions took place at a time when they were trying to make it stricter to get in. Um, [00:33:00]

Matt: Right.

Chris: I'm not sure why, but like, uh,

Matt: I think they just go through, I think like anything, it just goes through

phases, right.

Chris: Yeah, and it goes through phases of politics of the board and that kind of

Matt: all that stuff. But I mean, yeah. I mean, knowing you and knowing like I, and knowing other people, I'm positive it's a mistake that you,

you're not in

Chris: Well, so that, that trick, um, I updated it with like a spec specific kind of deck, and, uh, that deck just failed. And in the moment of the audition, I was just like, . I, I don't know how, like, it's maybe the third time I've ever done magic for people. And so like, I don't know how to recover from it.

Matt: Yes. Yes. And also magicians love outs and improvisers don't,

Chris: yes.

Matt: uh,

Chris: I love, for me, for me, an improv, the out is we're doing improv. None of this matters,

Matt: Yeah. Yeah, exactly right. And that's where I go. They all can't work. Uh, and [00:34:00] I go, and like last night I was like, I know you guys are like the tension in the room is that like, I might have messed up, but I'm seeing you're gonna have the thing on the other end. I'm telling you right now, I've just messed up the trick and we just need to find this woman's ring.

And I'm just like fishing through all the

stuff.

Chris: Right. And probably like still, like a, still a third of people are like, yeah, but this is still gonna turn out

Matt: exactly. Yeah. They just keep that . And the magicians like a lot of times pride themselves on having outs. If this doesn't work, you do this or this is, and then when I do this, they do this. And what's funny is that even when I was doing the pen and teller launch and Penn Teller would do a trick, Jeff McBride was like, what's your out if this doesn't happen?

And they both Penn and Teller looked at Jeff and were like, we don't know. And I was like, they don't have outs. I was like, no wonder why I never think about outs. I was like, my greatest influences, don't think about outs.

Um, but that's probably the biggest snobby thing that. Whoever was ju adjudicating you was probably like, you don't have an out for that.

You know? It's probably one of their

s nobbies things.

Chris: That first audition. They were, there was a, there was a snobby remark on my evaluation that was, I had, I had [00:35:00] told them that I was a comedian and that, um, I've actually, which is true, I've like directed some magicians shows and I think it helped them a lot. It helped write their scripts and stuff like that.

So I, cuz they were asking like, why do you wanna be at the castle? And partly it was like, I, I have no aspirations to be a professional magician, but I would love to like work with magicians and write jokes and construct. Right. Which I think that both you and I could like help a lot. I mean, you and I have seen a lot of bad comedy in the magic world.

Matt: Well, cause a lot of, a lot of magicians think comedies is lines of dialogue

Chris: Yes,

Matt: and you're, and like the biggest thing is like if you think there's a combination of words that are holding you back from crushing it, comedically, that's the worst way to look at it, you know?

Chris: Um, ,uh, I mean, a lot of magicians don't have a relationship to a director at all. Um,

Matt: but I, but I'll say that like anyone who's kicked ass on fool, when you, when I, when I go into their background, they all have [00:36:00] either a director or a cabal of friends where they really make each other sharper. And so I think there's still a lot of magicians out there who wanna do it solo. And I think it's a mistake.

I, I do just think any, any outside voice, uh, getting in on your process, it's proven to help

numerous magicians.

Chris: Well, because I don't think it's, it's, it doesn't seem reasonable to try to progress by taking audience response as a proxy for a director.

Matt: I was just talking about this, uh, the other day. I think one of the things that magic suffers from, that no other art forms suffers from is the low level of possib. Like if you're mediocre at improv, you know it and the audience knows

it. You know what I mean? And if you're mediocre at standup, boy, the audience is not having you.

You know, if you're mediocre at magic, but your tricks work, people go like, look at that

good job.

Chris: Yeah.

Matt: So like [00:37:00] you can operate on such a low level of possibility and earn on a low level of possibility that it's hard to know how to raise the bar.

Chris: Because they will take the moment at the end where it worked and forgive you the

like bad jokes that led up to that,

Matt: Yes. Or if you're using the same linking rings pattern as somebody did 50 years ago,

Chris: you know what

Matt: link

at the end.

Chris: they will even, yeah. This is, yeah, this is, uh, I haven't thought about it in quite that way before, but that is definitely true because. , I'm trying to think of like, what are the things that you can be mediocre at , which is like, not just the things you say, but even the way that you, because even if you do it in a way where it works and half the audience is like, oh cool.

And the other half is like, yeah, but I saw him put that thing in. Even that people sometimes will be like, yeah, yeah, I figured it out. Like it still leaves them [00:38:00] with a good

feeling.

Matt: yo. Yeah, totally. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

Chris: Um,

Matt: yeah. So then this, why don't you go back a second time. It was just because your deck didn't work. Were you like, I

have to go back and give it an honest effort?

Chris: uh, well, uh, so to be honest, I wanted to be a member of the castle and I probably still do because I just want to be able to go hang out and also I wanna be able to use their library .

Matt: Yes,

Chris: They have an insane library.

Matt: do. library with a

librarian who knows what's in it.

Chris: But I'd also like to love to just hang out there and not have to buy dinner and that kind of stuff. Right. Which, um, I mean, I could, if I was calling in favors from my magician friends and stuff. Right. But I mean, also there was a little bit of like, uh, you know, you know, you said no, so let me try, try again.

Second time around I did more. I didn't do it. Oh, actually, first time around I did two tricks. I invented .

Matt: Right.

Chris: The other one

was, uh, you pick a card, we're gonna lose it in this wash shuffle. And now I have this, uh, [00:39:00] elastic headband that will magically find the card in the, in the wash shuffle. Uh, that actually did work.

Matt: do you flick it at it? How does the band find the

Chris: uh, it's like basically the, oh, I've had the, the elastic band's attached to like a, a hunter card or a finder card or whatever.

Matt: Oh, got

Chris: It's, a blank card

that I stick into the deck and then like, it actually like, Sticks to the, the card that was chosen, but in the wash shuffle, it's stuck to the card, but you're moving it around and then I like pull my head up and like the card flies out and it's hanging off my head.

Right. That actually, that actually worked.

Um, now, so because at the, I was just valuing a thing, which is like, I think it's fun for me to like, make up tricks, ,

Matt: Definitely.

Chris: and, uh, that, but that wasn't necessarily a value that they were auditioning for .

Matt: Yeah.

Chris: back a second time with the, and I didn't, I don't think I created anything in the second one.

Second one I was like, uh, and second time I just like, I flashed on [00:40:00] a, uh, flashing for those. It means like I showed, uh, a part of the trick that sort of gives away what was going on, um, at a bad angle where somebody could see that I had like added some cards to my hand or whatever. That was actually like the main thing and it was enough.

Oh, sorry. The snarky thing that was said the first time around was I said I was a comedian and all that stuff. And then in the evaluation it said, um, To the point of like not having an out, like for situations, the unexpected situ situations, maybe you should use some of your alleged comedy to, uh, improve your performance.

Matt: fuck off. Burn, burn

you to the ground.

Chris: Yeah. And that guy does not, uh, administer auditions there anymore. So,

Matt: Good. I, I don't, yeah, that's a little too, you know, it's so hard. I mean, it's so, I mean, so hard for magicians to like other magicians. Um, so I, I, that process sounds so

uncomfortable to me.

Chris: Yeah. So when you were talking about the, uh, [00:41:00] your, the discussions you're having around magic, I, I just had a flash in my mind, which is there has to be a book coming at some point.

Matt: You are the second person to bring it. I'm so new to it that I'm, like, the idea that I would write a

book, I think is so,

Chris: but I mean, but this is a book that's like a high, because let's the, uh, You are in the long form improv world. You are a person that likes to, uh, fashion paradigms

Matt: yes. yes, yes.

Chris: So,

Matt: a, I've had, I've had that improv book written in my head for

20 years. Yeah,

Chris: right. So I feel like that the combination of like a comedy magic with some scaffolding of like a theoretical approach to it, I think your brain like naturally moves there. So like, this is where I think the book should live.

Matt: That's interesting. This is the best pitch of me doing a book that I've heard someone else give to me, so that's good. I

like that element of it.

Chris: Well, I mean, don't like, cuz you have, like, I feel like you've taught the, [00:42:00] uh, uh, structure called like the bull matador in the improv world. But I feel like that's not the, like I feel like you've often had a like, sort of a philosophical look at the art form as. And so if your brain works that way in relationship to long form, I feel like it must also be doing that towards magic as well.

Matt: Yeah, I mean, it does, like I laugh all the time, like, uh, yes, bull Matador, history, philosophy, metaphor. I've a lot of like, things that have been good enough that they've been stolen from me and taught by other people, which I think is, uh, the highest compliment. Um, but, uh, uh, but yeah, like I make a joke about the three rules of escapes.

Uh, if you're gonna perform an, if you're gonna perform an escape, you have to either say that Houdini did it, so you gotta do it again, or it already has to have started, it's already in motion by the time I'm talking to you. The, the, the, the fuses lit, the timer is gone, the dominoes are falling and this is what's gonna happen.

Or three, you have to be kind of enough of an [00:43:00] asshole. That part of me, just the smallest percentage of

me

Chris: wants you to fail

Matt: wants you to die. Like has, has no problem with this going wrong and me

watching and being a witness to it.

Chris: right, right. The, the fourth rule is you have to be, uh, Asian and dressed in an old Chinese, uh,

Matt: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Yeah,

Exactly.

Chris: Or actually, you know what, you don't have to be Asian, you just have to be in a Chinese robe.

Matt: I say or just say Asian things or whatever you have to say, Houdini and, or some ancient, uh, thing created that. Oh my gosh. What, how do, do you ling Sue, how much

do you know about him? And, and

Chris: I have, uh, so Chung Ling Sue was a, chk is the white guy. Right?

Matt: Yes.

Chris: Okay. So Chung Ling Sue was a white magician back in the day that basically stole the entire act from a Chinese magician named Shingling Fu. And, uh, there's a book by Jim Steinmeyer that I have, that I have not read yet. Uh, so I haven't delved super deep into this except that, um, this is a white guy who did [00:44:00] like yellow face and made a lot of money doing it, and is still like on the wall at the Magic Castle

Matt: I know like this guy was so mad that an Asian magician was out drawing him, that he stole his act and life, like, traveled with a translator and said he didn't speak English, and literally they committed to a life of it, uh, before he ultimately killed himself

trying to perform magic. Uh,

Chris: a lot in magic. There was a lot of, uh, unexamined and I don't know if we'll ever examine it, but there's a lot of, um, unexamined Asian, uh, like sort of appropriating asianness for the mysticism of it

Matt: the strict with a strictly that, right? Like Asian equals mystic gold stuff that you, that's beyond your, your, your

typical white guy reach,

Chris: Yes. Uh, I was on, I was on your

podcast recently, AKA Bavel, which is a great podcast. Um, uh, go support their Patreon, get some episodes, and I mentioned that there was a, [00:45:00] uh, uh, magic trick that was marketed and sold called three, uh, is it Two fry? Three Fry?

Matt: Three, three fly,

Chris: So it's three. Which is three coins going from one hand to another.

But there was a version of it marketed as three fry. And Fry is a jargon in the magic world for like, when you really like fool another magician, you fried them. Right. But, uh, and I mentioned this on that podcast and it was, uh, that at the end of the promotional video, the person did a Chinese accent and was like, oh, it's called Three Fry.

Right? And I remember on your podcast, I was like, I can't remember who it was. Was it Chris Kenner? And I was like, ah, I don't think it was Chris Kenner who's like a, a famous consultant for like David

Matt: Copperfield, And before that famous comedy

Chris: after we recorded the podcast, I went and watched every day and it was Chris Kenner, and this is my podcast, so I'm happy to say that it was Chris Kenner doing a racist Chinese accent to promote.

And like that video is still on like magic websites where you can buy that [00:46:00] video. And I mean, and I don't really, whatever, like it's just like, It is just, there's so much, you encounter it so often in magic of like, oh, this is, you know, this is like, these are these Chinese coins I'm using, and like they just have gibberish written on them.

Matt: Totally. Yeah. Like, I mean, the, the, you know, I mean, anybody not magic, well the, like, obviously the phrase like ancient Chinese secret right? Is something that like, we would know. And so in magic, which is all about secrets, like it is, it's this is, this is just this whole era of if you wanna make it cooler and more mysterious, make it Asian.

And that was decades of magic. And so it's also then decades of magic books and then decades of, you know, so, so it's like it's, it's it's outsized, um, racial thing that's not in other art forms. You know, there's no, like, there was no phase where we had to pretend like to be samurai to do standup, you know,

Chris: Yes. It's [00:47:00] because I think woven into the idea, there's always been this idea of Asian stereotypes as being like, they're, they're, um, uh, oh. What is the word for like, I can't figure you out. . My, my high school drama teacher. Oh, inscrutable. Which is a, which is connected to the, the inscrutable. And my high school drama teacher told me I was inscrutable at one point, which is very racist in, in

Matt: that's weird.

Chris: Yeah. Um, but like, so because of that, there's this element of like, they are so, they are so sly and such a mystery that, that, that is a, that is an energy I want to have in my magic act as well. Uh, and so that, um, amorphous feeling about Asians being sort of, uh, difficult to understand, doesn't really help you in other art forms,

So, you know, so I think that's why it hasn't been appropriate. There's like no need in like, pop music to be like, , you're not gonna understand this song

Matt: Yeah, yeah, [00:48:00] yeah, exactly. Right, right, right.

Chris: Um,

Matt: but I mean, it does, uh, but there's, um, there's a, there's still a modern day forgiveness of it because it's part of magic history that, and that's where tricks come from. That has to

bother you. Yeah.

Chris: Yeah. Well, I mean, also there's, there, as in everything in society, there's a big spectrum of like, yes, there, there's one. Like in LA let's say, uh, there is like a bunch of, you know, uh, self-aware magicians who wouldn't do that kind of stuff, but maybe they still, uh, Still like doing akio box or something, which is whatever AKI box is just a coin thing.

It just happens to have a Japanese sounding name that like, means nothing .

Matt: yeah, yeah. Like, it's often called Chinese, Chinese linking rings.

Chris: yes. Um, there's one where you like move objects around on a, on a table and it's called chink, chink,

Matt: Oh boy. [00:49:00]

Chris: Um, but like in la, you know, I wouldn't necessarily see performers like appropriate that stuff directly. They might not be as, um, aware of the history of the stuff as they want. Right. So there's a spectrum that's the LA spectrum, right. But also you could go to a magic show in a different city where they might just straight up do like they're not past it , they

Matt: No. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris: you know, um, actually like

Matt: They might do the Secrets of the Orient routine and bring out the box with

the symbol on it and

Chris: Like, I mean, not just with the Asian stuff, but in general, are you like, Ha, have you seen, uh, stuff where you're cringing?

Matt: Yeah. Uh, mostly it's the, um, anything flirty.

Chris: Oh,

Matt: sexual tension stuff is the stuff that, that, that bothers me tremendously. And even when I first started, it's, it's so easy to do. And so I had [00:50:00] stuff in my act about it. Um, and we take it out and I'd say like, I even suffer from it because when I was doing the Duct Tape Trick in comedy clubs, I was always trying to pick a big guy to do it.

Chris: Mm

Matt: then when I did it on Fool Us, I was like, oh, it's gonna be me, Penn, and Teller. It's gonna be a bunch of guys. We should get a woman volunteer. And it, and, and, and uh, something that I thought was not sexual at all, something that had no sexual innuendo. Some people on the internet do think it does, and then I get painted as like a, a monster.

Tough, um, uh, to read, uh, especially cuz you're like, I don't ever do it that way. Uh, I don't even do the trick anymore, you know? Uh, but you know, it is what it is. And so it's, it's, it's just naturally in it. I think. So much so. And so I think like, it's, it's hard because, you know, I've talked about this on Abraca apple with RJ all the time cuz he, he was doing a lot of comedy magic back in the day.

And like, it's, it's, it's so when a line works and [00:51:00] works and works for decades at a time and it doesn't go outta style, then suddenly boom, it's completely outta style. It's jarring to people, you know? But it also, it's also the truth. Like it just is, you know, and so I think it's hard when you see people who are more accomplished and great still doing lines that you're like, gosh, I just don't think that's the way to do that anymore.

You know?

Chris: um, without like a, well, I, when you were presented with something, Let me phrase it this way. Sometimes in magic bubbles of friends, there'll be a thing, or even comedy bubbles, like say, there'll be a thing of like, Hey, uh, that line, maybe you shouldn't say for example, uh, at the Parlor recently, I saw a magician do a thing or like, Hey, I'm bringing up a volunteer.

Um, I'm gonna take, uh, your, uh, you're, you're giving me a dollar. I'm gonna hide it somewhere, buddy. Like, now don't go looking for it on me. And it's a lady [00:52:00] that he's brought up, you know,

Matt: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Chris: sort of

awkward interactions, right? So, and then you might go to this person and say like, Hey, I think, uh, maybe like in 2023, maybe you shouldn't phrase it that way, or whatever.

There's a, there's a thing that I see sometimes in those bubbles where there's a tension between, Hey, that is true. Uh, maybe I should modify what I'm doing, and your peers being like, fuck a man. Like, you know what they, you know, How do you navigate that moment?

Matt: I, I say it, I, I say it out loud with sympathy.

Chris: Uhhuh.

Matt: I, I literally go like, gosh, you know, like when you were young and there were older guys who were like, Hey, I get comedy too, fella. You wanna chat comedy? Didn't you hate that old person? Right? And, and you're like, yeah. And then you're like, and then you would say, that's outta style, or you can't do it anymore.

And they'd go, come on. It's funny. Oh, come on. It's just jokes. And I said, didn't you hate that person? And I was like, and it's hard cuz I wanna [00:53:00] sometimes yell, oh, come on. You know, my heart, come on. You know, whatever. But then I know I'm sounding like that guy who doesn't wanna evolve. And the thing is like, when, when do you tell yourself you're done evolving,

Chris: Mm-hmm.

Matt: you know that you've evolved enough.

I think that by the way, that I believe what I just said is the tension of our entire. Uh, uh, and like why we have all the, like, haven't I evolved enough? Is I think a lot of the sources of the political, uh, uh, dry, you know, strife, um, only amplified and, and nudged and poured, poured

gasoline on by cable news.

Chris: Yeah, I mean the, the, there's a lot of tension from like, can I draw an underlying over where we're at right now, and I don't want to go any further and I don't want to hear about anyone else's, uh, things from now on.

Matt: Right, exactly. Um, but yeah, and so I, I say, I say it like, as like, Hey, hey, I share the struggle, but, but if anyone's thinking that, isn't it better just to get rid of it? And then you, you follow it up with like, have you been [00:54:00] writing new stuff all your life? Are you done writing new things?

Chris: Mm-hmm.

Matt: You know, because when we get down to like, oh, but it gets a laugh.

Oh, but the most time it gets a laugh or whatever. Like, why are we being so precious with one line of dialogue?

Chris: Mm-hmm.

Matt: it out, put something new in

there, figure it out,

Chris: And then the, there's a parallel tension for me sometimes where it's like, oh, I, I guess, you know, there are situations where somebody might, like, if I, if I like. Post something on the internet and somebody might say like, that's not funny because of this. Right? Um,

Matt: yeah,

Chris: then there's the, there are situations where you almost need to hear the argument.

Be like, okay, that's not a, that what you said isn't funny because of this. And then for you to just be like, yeah, I hear you. Uh, I understand your argument. Uh, I still stand by what I said cuz I, you, you know, like, I,

Matt: yeah. Like,

Chris: it, it,

it's hard to navigate that like sometimes you're right.

Matt: yeah, [00:55:00] or it's just not important. Like, like, yes, you can fight that battle here, but on this meme, I don't know if it's worth fighting the battle. You know, like, I don't know if this is the place to, to line up and point our guns at each other. Uh, Now, like, alright, I laughed at this. I posted it. You made your point.

You're probably right. I, but it doesn't remove the giggle I had in the moment, and sure, you've proven that. Maybe the laugh is below me, but that's it. You know, that's, that's, that's all we're getting to

at this place.

Chris: Yeah, like, um, I just had a video come out from the Laugh After Dark Festival in Vegas. Uh, cuz I did their comedy festival in the fall and they released my full set from the, the festival. And at the beginning of the set I said a joke that was like, I'm Chinese and I'm gay. So when people ask me what I am, I tell 'em I'm a Caucasian.

And the, which I've been saying since, like, been saying that joke since

Matt: it's a good joke.

Chris: or whatever. [00:56:00] Um, and then there were two comments on the Instagram that said, uh, boy, he's just stealing meme jokes from the internet. Right? And I did spend a little time, uh, commenting, by the way, two comments from standups, like people who, um, their Instagram's linked to them doing standup,

Matt: Yeah, yeah, yeah,

Chris: which seems

very, uh, like Ill advised, just even if you think someone's standup is not good.

E even if I think someone's joke is not gonna, I'm not gonna go onto their page and like post that. I think

Matt: like I say is like I

Chris: form.

Matt: like, I literally like, it's social media. It's like I stood on a soapbox and yelled It is how I picture everything. Like why I understand thinking it, I understand telling your friends. I don't understand putting the box down and screaming it out

to strangers,

Chris: So I, I did, I did uh, have to stop myself from, uh, writing comments in response. One was I had gone to look at their jokes, , and I was gonna give them review the,

Matt: oh man.

Chris: [00:57:00] But did I screenshot these guys profiles for future reference? Yes, I did.

Matt: because you'll debate more than I will. I've seen you, you'll debate more on the internet than I do,

Chris: Oh Yeah.

Matt: uh, so I could understand.

Chris: I debate a lot and I, um, uh, it. . You know, honestly, sometimes I debate, like I'll get into like long protracted face, uh, Facebook fights, right? I do think sometimes I will do that just to like sort of like work out my own arguments.

Matt: that's good.

Chris: it, improves my arguments a little bit.

Matt: Well, most of the time I see someone get into Facebook phone, I'm like, oh boy. But I actually do learn from yours, so I do. I don't mind when you get into it, , you have, you have made me a better person. You have made me evolve by reading

your stuff on, on the internet.

Chris: Well, I'll, the, the things I'll do in a Facebook fight are I will, I will, if someone drops a source, I will fully go read the source that they provide. Especially because 75% of the time their source disproves their point and they just didn't read it [00:58:00] fully. Uh, I love that when they re they, they'll drop like a study or they'll drop a, an article that links to a study and the article will support their point and the study won't.

And I'll be like, if you actually read the study they're talking about. It's actually diametrically the opposite of what you claim .

Matt: Oh man.

Chris: Um, and then the second, like I, I, I like doing it for that and all, and my other rule is I only go as low conversationally as the other person does. So if, if

Matt: You won't curse if

they don't curse

Chris: no, but if they drop like a personal insult, like then it's like, alright, let's go

Matt: And that is the standup in you. You're like, oh, if we get to, oh, if we get to rip. If we get to rip people, great. I'm mean, I'm all for it.

Chris: Yeah. Um, so like you said, like, I mean, you're obviously, you know, you are somewhat, well, you're like, I don't wanna phrase this, like, such an insulting way. So now you are a [00:59:00] successful magician. I'm curious what it's like now for you to have fame, uh, esp, esp and also through your podcast as well.

And not just Aber ab, but also um,

Matt: Uh, ice, cream, social.

Chris: cream, social. And also because you were on, um, pens as well, there's like a fair number of people like follow you. You have festivals and stuff. Like, what is that like now?

Matt: Oh, I, I, I, well, it doesn't feel like fame. Uh, and I, and I say this because like, like, uh, no one ever interrupts me at dinner with my family. That's what fame is. Number one. Sign of fame is that your kids get annoyed with you. Um, is from what I notice being around other famous people. Um, I think what I've done is with the podcasting, I think I found a way to scratch the itch that improv theaters gave me without starting an improv theater.

Chris: Mm-hmm.

Matt: always thought that was something I was destined to do. And every time I felt like I could do it, I was like, gosh, I really don't wanna, um, [01:00:00] but, uh, so I really. Basically found all the things I loved about improv theater and put it into my podcast community. And so I feel like I am a figure of a podcast community, but when they see them, they just talk to me.

No one asks to take a selfie with me. No

one, you know, whatever. They might be a

Chris: No, no one's ever asked for

a selfie with you. I find

Matt: A few people have asked. All

right. A few people, A few,

Chris: as Matt do. Matt Donnelley, one of my early long form improv crushes from way back in the day. I bet. You know what? I bet a significant portion of your podcast following are guys that I would've a crush on

Matt: Oh, that part's true. That part's true.

Chris: Um,

Matt: true.

Chris: do you feel a responsibility to that community

Matt: Yes.

Chris: and how does that, like,

and how does that inform like your decisions?

Matt: Well, you know, like, uh, podcasting is a really good way to self-check yourself because sometimes you hurt people without realizing it. [01:01:00] And again, like the jokes aren't worth it. You wanna be like, oh, I was just joking around. You know? I mean, I'd say the biggest thing that I've, like, you can just listen to my evolution is understanding trans and trans issues and things like that.

I really just didn't get it, you know, I really was, uh, I said on air like, I'm really my grandfather about this right now and I don't know how to be and literal just people wrote in and we just kept reading letters on air until I started to kind of really understand, uh, people's trans stories. And how difficult life can be with it and where it comes from and all the other stuff.

And it was really eye-opening. Another thing I realized is that like I used to take pride in the nineties, in early two thousands as being like an advocate, right? And so I thought if I'm running my mouth off about this, good for me, I'm taking the sides of gay people or, or women or whatever. And now social media and podcasts and everything have made it where're like, actually chill [01:02:00] out, white guy.

We can talk for ourselves, . Uh, and so it's really been about like learning to just lay out, uh, and advocate what I'm supposed to, or let someone tell me when to lead the charge on it. Uh, because, uh, you can misspeak for people and that drives people.

Chris: mm-hmm.

Matt: and so I've learned to be a lot more just humble and chill about talking about anything, uh, from, from doing, from doing podcasting and stuff like that.

Um, and, and you know, like, uh, I think the world can be so unsocial now. And so I, we do the festivals and we really take pride in our interactions on social media and how, and saying how to interact with each other and being our own community standard bearers, because I think it's really important that people can feel heard and recognized and get their voices out there.

And so I, I, that's what I think. So I don't, it doesn't, when I say it doesn't feel like fame, that's what I'm talking about. It's like I, I feel like, I definitely feel, I take [01:03:00] pride and then I've created some niche place for people to feel comfortable, uh, and be themselves. And that part's probably the coolest thing I've accomplished.

And that's a much bigger accomplishment than fame.

Chris: It strikes me that podcasting, which is this form that I love, is so not like a lot of social media because the relationship that I have to the podcast that I listen to are not, uh, fraught with drama. They're, I like, podcasts are like a comfort to me, and I feel like, like I never listen to a podcast and I'm like, ah, I can't, but why did I listen to that?

I'm so angry now. Like,

Matt: no, exactly, and I, and I was a big podcast listener before I started podcasting, so I knew. . And because you are right that I'm so analytical about these things, so I understood the relationship a podcaster has to its listener, you know? And so when anyone else is gonna start one, I'm always like, remember, you're with them while they do the dishes.

You're with them while they walk their dog. You're with them at the gym and you're [01:04:00] with them in the car. Like, that's a very intimate space to be with somebody. Uh, and so that's, and so when they see you, if there's any awkwardness, it's not because they're fame struck. They literally just are overwhelmed with this guilt of knowing me.

And now all of a sudden, combined with this smacking of reality of they've never been in front of my face before. And so most of the time I try to unload, unload their burden. I go like, no, you do know me. Like I, I, I talked into a microphone and you listened. That was the whole idea. So don't feel, don't feel bad for doing your part of the equation.

You listened and you know who I am. You know, when I've struggled, you know my kids' names, you know, you know how long I've been married. You know all of it, you know.

Chris: then you follow up by bit saying like, but I don't owe you and I don't want to. And then you walk away.

Matt: Yeah, very

Chris: that, that's

Matt: peace and love. Peace

and love.

Chris: um, actually, I think that that's my theory about why fame makes people insane, uh, like at much higher levels than, than we have, [01:05:00] which is that I, I think the human condition is like not, uh, well suited to an asymmetrical, like, you know, 10,000 people know who I am and I know 10 of them.

Um,

Matt: it is weird. And also it's weird because there's a guilt cuz you got what you wanted. But like, there's a study about like, basically like, uh, if you ask the youth what they want, whatever, like, so you ask kids now, they'll say, I wanna be a TikTok star. You know, whatever. If you ask me, I wanted to be on a sitcom, you know, people before that, whatever that, whatever that most spectacular fame.

Thing is, is what people wanted in any decade. But the reason why they want it is not because young people are idiots and selfish, is that the, the, the real world is so intimidating to them and they don't know much about it. So they know if I am famous, then at least I should have access to money, access to friends, access to people who will [01:06:00] take care of me wherever I go.

And it's just, it is just really an expression of being overwhelmed by the real world and that like this will solve that. And when you look at it that way, as you get older and you start to figure out the world, the more fame doesn't help any of that. And so it really is just this odd burden. But you feel guilty cuz you desired

it.

Right.

Chris: Yeah. I mean, I don't agree with you. I'm still

gonna pursue more fame as a solution to my problems. Uh, so Matt, you, I mean, I'm just starting this podcast. It's just we're in the first couple months. Uh, what, what's, what's some advice you have for fledgling podcasts as they launch?

Matt: Uh, find a way for your listeners to feel heard or recognized.

Chris: Okay. Definitely not doing that. Um, next

Matt: uh, commit. Commit to it or be honest with your listeners about how often you're gonna put out episodes and for how long?

Chris: Makes sense.

Matt: Um, and, uh, [01:07:00] yeah. I don't know. I don't know cuz I'm, because my podcasts are all old dinosaurs now, I feel like there's a lot more hipper things to know.

Chris: are there people in your communities that have started successful podcasts on their own?

Matt: Yes. Yeah,

Chris: I mean, that's kind of cool, like

Matt: I think so. Yeah, I think so too. I think it's neat.

Chris: Um, all right. I,

Matt: And even like I even, mine is a spinoff podcast of Penn Sunday School and Penn. The first time we did Scoop Fest, Penn was like, this is crazy. I cannot believe you did

this

Chris: Uh, okay, Matt, we need the book soon. Start working on that.

Matt: Okay. I'll work on the book.

Chris: I will write the

forward for the

book if you need it. Although you should just have piff. Right. I would make way more sense. , I'll write the, uh,

Matt: I'll do multiple forwards, like the, like the, uh, like the really, you know, make it as pretentious as

possible. Have multiple

Chris: Actually, the more forwards you ask for, the less of the book you have to write. So

Matt: it's like this went through six intros and now it's just an index. I don't, I, did I [01:08:00] miss the book

Chris: I mean, so please go check out Matt's work because I, there there aren't that many examples of people in the arts that have sort of lived their, uh, journey from one career in the arts to another so publicly. , um, and like you've been podcasting the whole time. So like people can go into your archives and like, see, like you can go into, uh, ice cream, social or abraca babbel and hear episodes that are like, Hey, I just went to this road gig and here's the way it's screwed up

Like,

Matt: Yes. I try to, yeah, I try to make a Babel Awards an all uh, document of my career

as well as interviewing other people. Yeah,

Chris: I mean, I think not just from magicians, but anybody that's interested in that, um, feeling of like an artist who's just like, been like, I'm just taking off the, the lid of like the, this process of going from one thing to another [01:09:00] and it's most decidedly not a snap your fingers and like suddenly you have a new career kind of thing.

Matt: yeah. No,

Chris: that's what I think is so great about the stuff you're putting

out.

Matt: Oh, thanks man. I appreciate it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm, I'm all for letting people know it's a lot about failure,

Chris: Uh, so Matt, what's the best way for people to keep up with you and follow the stuff you're doing?

Matt: Uh, yeah, if you're in, in the, the, my little magic journey, uh, go to abraca babel.com and, uh, it's, it's, it'll cost you $2, which I get. It's tough, but that's really just to keep, um, petty magicians from yelling, exposure. You're exposing

magic. Uh,

Chris: because as soon as you give $2,

they're like, that's, fine.

Matt: that's exa that really is true. I laugh cuz cuz I have other friends who get flack for just talking about, honestly about magic tricks and go like, you're exposing the secret.

And I was like, you know what solves this? $2, $2, those people go away. Uh, so yeah, I'm over there and then I just do, yeah, ice cream, social. I talk about [01:10:00] everything with my comedy partner Paul. It's a shoot the shit. Comedy podcast with trivia at the end, uh, uh, is a lot of inside Vegas stuff. It's pretty inside vegasy stuff.

But, uh, yeah, I, I, you know, I, because of, I, I get credit for being a mental health advocate on that show, ,

Chris: Wow.

Matt: cuz I just talk openly about going to therapy or what I'm working on and that kind of stuff and, and so, and being a dad and all the other stuff. And so, um, yeah, uh, it's a, it's a, it's, it's a surprisingly vulnerable,

uh, comedy podcast, I'd

Chris: And, uh, where do we find like, tour dates and stuff for your magic shit.

Matt: my noodler.com And, uh, as a matter of fact, I'm about to just start, uh, the Fuller's live tour. We're Penn Teller producing a tour and I'm one of four magicians on it. Uh, and in it they're giving us some of their tricks. So I'm gonna be performing pen and teller

tricks on that tour, which is pretty

Chris: Whoa, that's amazing. So you're doing silverfish and you're doing, uh, the, the ball that floats

Matt: Red ball. Yeah. A lot of red

ball.

Chris: The two easiest tricks to [01:11:00] just pick up, I'm sure

Matt: Just hold the hoop.

Wait, wait for the ball.

Chris: Yeah. Uh, so my guest, today's been Matt Donnelly. Uh, I'm so glad that you guys got to hear, uh, please go check out his stuff. He, he's amazing, uh, the podcast and of course, his magic work. And, uh, of whe when we get the book, we're all gonna pre-order the book on Amazon.

Matt: yeah. And you gotta come back online. Everyone loved when you were on my podcast. I got a lot of great feedback for you coming on

AKA Babel.

Chris: thank you very much, Matt. Thank you so much for being

on the show.

Matt: thanks, man.