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The Relaxed Running podcast is a behind the scenes conversation with the best athletes, coaches and professionals in the world of distance running. From training, hydration and nutrition to racing and recovering, we learn from the best in the world.
Relaxed conversations which are packed with actionable takeaways to help you take your running performance up a notch. Save yourself years of guess work and learn from the people who are doing it at the highest level.
tyson (00:00.615)
Yeah man, how have you been?
Matt Fitzgerald (00:03.914)
Health-wise, not great. I have long COVID going on three years of, you know, one of these folks who, you know, got COVID and never got better. But aside from that, everything is great. I am loving life here in Flagstaff, Arizona, launched a new business. I picked, you know, why not do the
hardest thing you've ever done in your entire life when you're at your absolute weakest. So yeah, Dream Run Camp is the reason I moved from California to Arizona. Launched at the beginning of May. We're speaking at the very end of June and so far so good.
tyson (00:48.142)
Last time we spoke was November and I don't know if you'd made the move yet or where you were But I remember talking to you briefly about this project and I was on your website the other day having a look at the video That you launched and reading through your camp options and man that it looks Unbelievable, so it's funny that you say that it's been one of the most challenging things because I watch it and it's so smooth It looks as though there's been no chinks in the armor
Matt Fitzgerald (01:11.734)
Thank you.
tyson (01:13.642)
And I always know that's not the story when something comes out looking that smooth. So it hasn't been as smooth sailing by the sounds of it, but it's come up beautifully.
Matt Fitzgerald (01:23.126)
Yeah, I mean, you know, I, you know, I like doing hard things. And, you know, a distinction can be drawn between the hard you choose and the hard you don't. Um, but, um, you know, the hard I didn't choose was my health going sideways, you know, at age 49. And so, oh, well, you know, what are you going to do? Uh, that's, that's life. But, you know, I'm still the same person. And, and so for me, I love, um,
I love challenging myself. I love trying to, you know, bring new things into existence. And that's part of the reason that writing is, you know, a passion of mine. It's like, it's not there. And then because of you, it is there. And Dream Run Camp is a little bit of a pivot for me. You know, I'm 52 years old. I'm well along in my career. I've done, you know, I want to go new places in my life and in my career, both literally and figuratively.
And Dream Run Camp really spoke to me as like, you know, I wanted it to be hard. Um, you know, you know, there is such a thing as too hard. Um, but you know, for me to really stretch myself and test myself is just sort of me, you know, flipping a double middle finger at sickness and disease and age and saying, you know what?
Like I still, I'm still the same guy and I want to make an impact on this world in my passions.
tyson (02:52.198)
Like a true distance runners attitude not letting you Not letting a little obstacle get in the way of the things you're trying to achieve It was interesting you mentioned as I said last november about this run camp, but one thing I didn't remember Um, I don't remember you saying was that it was launched from an experience that you had back in 2017 where you threw yourself into a I think you said 13 week training camp where you had the opportunity Just to train like an absolute elite athlete and then come out and run a marathon pb
Matt Fitzgerald (02:54.626)
Right. Yeah.
Pretty much.
tyson (03:20.726)
So I thought as a foundation and motivation to put together a camp, that was a pretty honest motivation because who wouldn't run a P, who wouldn't want a PB or a PR? It's, I guess it's what keeps us coming back for more. So, man, there's so many things that we could unpack and pick through, but I'd love to hear a little more about the origins of the story. And maybe you could just, you know, give us a bit more of a broad brushstroke as to, you know, what led you to get this camp up and running.
Matt Fitzgerald (03:49.198)
Yeah, you know, for me, you know, I started running when I was 11 years old in 1983. And, you know, it's just a huge part of my identity, you know, it's my passion. It's a, you know, it counts for most of my career. And,
You know, like for me, like running is a sport, but it's also more than a sport. It's like this, it's like, you know, like a personal journey that you're on. And, you know, chasing things like PBs and Boston qualification or whatever else, you know, whatever your goals are, those are mostly just excuses for, like a transformational personal journey that you get to experience if you,
if you just set your heart on these arbitrary qualification standards or numbers. For me, forever it was a sub 240 marathon. I just decided like getting under 240 in the marathon just was my Olympics. And it didn't work out. I ran my first marathon when I was 28. I ran, I've run more than 50 marathons. And so you know.
partly it was just bad luck. I was injury prone and the passion was there, the hunger was there, the dedication to the sport was there. Even the knowledge, I wasn't an idiot. I coach, I write books on running, but it was like this, it turned into like a bit of like, Ahab and the white whale, like a Moby Dick reference. It was like the sub 240 marathon was this white whale that I just...
couldn't catch. And before I knew it, I was 46 years old. And I just got this notion to try an experiment, which was to reach out to the coach of a professional running team here in the US, Ben Rosario, the then coach of the Northern Arizona elite team, and said, hey, would you let me hang out with you for a summer and just see?
what happens when a middle-aged, above average, amateur runner just goes all in for the pro lifestyle. And circling back to this idea that running for me, and I think for a lot of runners, is a sport, but also something that goes a lot deeper than just sport. Those 13 weeks were the, hands down, the best 13 weeks of my life. I did transform as a runner.
You know, one thing I was looking to prove there is, you know, because my shtick as a coach and an author is that, you know, elite runners are human beings. They're not as different from us as we like to think. And the methods that work well for them, they're not idiots. They know what they're doing. And we also being human, we can achieve our best, even if we were less favored by the genetic lottery.
by emulating their methods. So I wanted to prove that and I did, you know, by, I mean, I said that PB, my PB was nine years old, you know, I had said it when I was 37, broke it at 46, when I thought there was no chance that was possible. So it was great just on a sport level, but also just on a personal level, just like, it was almost like a monkish type of existence to be able to go all in for a passion like that. And I knew it was temporary.
And I wouldn't have wanted it to last forever, but it was a magical experience. And, you know, I wrote a book about it, uh, called running the dream, but I also, I wanted, I really wanted to share it. Like I didn't want to hog that experience all to myself yet. Like, yes, I did it for myself, but I wanted it to be bigger than that. And so, you know, six years later, dream run camp was born and it really is my way of kind of like paying that experience forward and trying to make a facsimile of it available to any runner who wants it.
tyson (08:01.17)
Yeah, yeah. One thing you said there, I'm a Tony Robbins fan, or I was especially when I was younger, and I always remember a quote that he said was that success leaves clues. And it's so true in every area of life. And you just touched on it there that the elite athletes don't necessarily have this incredible secret. Sure, they might have the genetics to allow them to go a little bit further, but they're also doing things that when you expose yourself to them can be of great benefit as you experienced. And
as of experienced. I never got to a level where I was competing at high enough a level to make money, to train like a professional athlete. But the glimpses of that, that I had along the way where it might've been a week or two here, here and there, was always really beneficial. So I can appreciate that. I had Sarah Gearhart on the podcast. I'm not sure if you're familiar with her. She just, yeah, launched her book, We Shared the Sun. And it was really interesting just picking her brain about some of the experiences she had.
Matt Fitzgerald (08:50.955)
Yes, I am.
tyson (08:58.738)
in Kenya training alongside some of the elite athletes. And she touched on a few of those. And I mean, you've been in the sport now for however many years that is, I think you said you were 15, 51, what's that, 36 years. So you've been at it for a while. So I imagine that there's not only a whole heap of things that you've learned that work for you and work for the elite athletes, but that you're implementing into your camps. And I mean, I've had the luxury of having some time to go through.
a lot of the website and see what it is you're offering. But for those who, this is the first time they've heard about it, what are some of those things that the elite athletes are doing that you've benefited from that you're implementing into your own camps?
Matt Fitzgerald (09:37.526)
Yeah, it really is modeled after, I think, I don't know how it is where you are, but here in the States, you know, there are a lot of adult running camps. I mean, there's just a plethora to choose from all over the map. And there, I mean, I've been to a bunch of them and they're all great. You know, no one ever regrets going to a running camp. But they are fairly similar. They tend to be short.
you know, three to four days, like a week at the absolute maximum. And everyone arrives at the same time, stays for a specified amount of time, and then leaves at the same time. The, my model is different where it is, I call it a rolling attendance where, um, it operates out of my own personal house. Um, it's a very nice, uh, five bedroom brand new house here in Flagstaff, which is a wonderful place to run.
with trail access right out the door. The whole place has been sort of like, you know, outfitted to, you know, like as soon as you walk, you actually before you walk in the door, when you see the welcome mat, which has the Dream Run Camp logo on it, like, you know, before you even walk in, that this is a place for runners. As soon as you walk in the door, there's shoe cubbies just to your left where you can take off your dirty running shoes and not track your mud in all throughout the house. There's a full gym.
There's what I call a mind body recovery lounge. There's a spa pool with underwater treadmill, sauna, massage table, two kitchens, and even the artwork is all running theme. So it's just like, it's a place where you feel like as a runner, like this is a place where I can just indulge this, my runner identity and just go for it.
And so the minimum stay is one week, the maximum is 12 weeks. And we can accommodate a small number of runners at a time. It's not like some of the camps where there's like two, three dozen. But that's the idea. You want that intimacy because we're partnered with NAZ Elite, the pro team that I was embedded with in 2017. So when you come here, you actually get to meet and hang out with and run with, or at least start a run with.
you know, these Olympic hopeful, very talented young athletes, you also get to work with their support staff, their nutritionists, their, you know, injury experts, their strength and conditioning specialists. So it's, you know, and that's all that's everything I got to experience when I was with the team in 2017. So the idea is that, you know, and honestly, a lot of it is just, you know, part of the secret to, you know,
you know, the success that elite runners have and the secret to being the best runner you can be, it's just having a lot of downtime. So the people, you know, we just opened our doors in May, so it's only been a few weeks, but the runners who have come through here, that's one of their biggest takeaways. When I asked them like, you know, you know, did you benefit from this experience? And if so, how they talk about just how much they were able like their blood pressure just came down, you know, because like
They were training, they were learning, and other than that, they were mostly relaxing, resting, recovering, and just enjoying themselves.
tyson (13:06.486)
Just the exposure and we haven't even mentioned altitude there like the altitude factor of flag stuff. What is the altitude there? I'm not sure if you know it off the top of your head
Matt Fitzgerald (13:10.024)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, it's 7,000 feet. So that's like 25, 2,600 meters, I believe. Yeah.
tyson (13:22.006)
That's incredible. See here in Victoria, which is my state, the highest place, ironically, I'm actually running a run camp at the end of this year as well. And the equivalent to what we have at Flagstaff is probably a place in Victoria called Fool's Creek. But Fool's Creek is, I think, one of the highest places in Australia at 1,600 metres. Which is, I mean, we have quite a big number of our top athletes who are still in the country who go there at that time and experience the trails and things like that, but you can't really compare.
Matt Fitzgerald (13:42.263)
Yep.
tyson (13:52.162)
you know, a place like that in terms of altitude to what you're getting out of a place like Flagstaff. And especially, I love the idea of this extended stay because to steal your word, this idea of just that blood pressure coming down, it takes a little while for that to happen. Like a week is a great taste test, maybe get an idea of, you know, what you're capable of doing or how to train if you're trying to up your game a little bit. But for me, when I go on a holiday, the first week barely counts because I'll get to the end of that.
Matt Fitzgerald (13:55.372)
Yep.
Mm-hmm
Matt Fitzgerald (14:19.352)
Right, yep.
tyson (14:20.978)
And I'll go, okay, now I'm ready to go. So how do you structure the days? Is there some kind of routine that you're taking the athletes through in terms of gym and runs and downtime?
Matt Fitzgerald (14:30.818)
Yep. Yeah. Again, that's, you know, for those, anyone who's familiar with, you know, the traditional adult running camp where, you know, it's three, three to four days. And because, you know, it's, it's such a short span of time, everything is, is highly structured. You know, again, I've been to a bunch of these and, you know, you want a certain amount of downtime or free time, but, you know, if you're only there for a short while, you want to pack a lot in.
for here, I want athletes to feel more like they are living here because that's what I did in 2017. So that's why, you know, I have that minimum stay. You know, the longest booking I've had up to this point is four weeks. And but again, 12 weeks is the maximum when I'm really looking forward to someone who takes full advantage, you know, not everyone can, but you're going to get more out of 12 weeks than you can out of eight or six or four or two. And
And so the idea is, you know, cause like, you know, these athletes are in my home. And so they're, they're sort of insinuating themselves into my ongoing, like I never leave, right? And so, you know, I can't be following them around all the time. And the idea is like, they shouldn't want me to. So I try to, I try to strike a balance where there's just like enough of a structure where athletes feel taken care of, but they also feel like they're living here and that, you know, they're
sort of in charge of making the best possible use of their time here. So there are, in a typical day, there are three main touch points. One is a morning group run. So we all go somewhere and there's just like an embarrassment of riches in terms of like beautiful places to run and Flagstaff. So I haven't had a single person come here yet and run in the same place twice. So we go somewhere different.
you know, every day for a morning run. Then we come back to the house and usually it's sort of recovery time. People head to the recovery lounge. There's a hyperbaric chamber, something called a vibroacoustic therapy bed. Um, you know, you can, there's foam rollers, there's, uh, you know, compression boots and all that stuff. And then in the afternoon, we reconvene for what I call coaches office hours slash tee time, and that's where we just talk shop. It's an opportunity to.
for me to present on a specific topic that maybe came up at some point in interacting with the runners who are here or to focus on an individual runner and maybe some obstacle that they're trying to overcome to get to the next level as a runner. And then we usually all have dinner together. It's sort of like, you know, we're partnered with a local fresh meal delivery service that's actually run by a sports dietician.
So I try to make it really easy to just keep yourself fed according to your athlete standards without Spending a lot and also without having to cook if you if you don't want to so there's usually some kind of evening hangout And then they're over the course of the week. They're sprinkled like different sort of one-off opportunities like You know, there are like a couple different two to three times a week when we have a group of runners here We meet up with NAZ elite, but not every day. They don't want us with them every day
And yeah, and then just like special opportunities, like there's a local band that has, the bass player is a local runner. And so when they're playing, we go see them perform. So part of it is just like, you know, fun and taking advantage of what a cool community with Flagstaff is as well.
tyson (18:11.182)
Man, it sounds unbelievable. It's obviously incredibly well thought out. But one of the beauties, and I mean, this is probably part of the planning as well with NAZ, I love the fact that you've got the exposure to the elite athletes because it's interesting, especially here in Australia at the moment, we've got a group of young kids coming through. I say kids, we've got a particular guy. I don't know if you know Cameron Myers. He recently broke
or 1500 meter world age record for 16 year olds. He's just run 336. There's a 17 year old New Zealander running around the same time. And it's interesting that when one or two of these kinds of athletes start to poke their heads up, coincidentally or so it seems, there's a whole range of other athletes around the same bracket who go, oh, well, if they're running that, like, why can't I? And it's interesting, I finished competitive running on the track in 2014.
Matt Fitzgerald (18:55.578)
Mm-hmm
Yep.
tyson (19:05.006)
And there weren't many people in Australia at that time running 336. Now there's about 10 guys all around the age of 20 and below. So I say that to say that just the exposure to that elite quality of athlete, it does something to your mind as well to sort of expand your horizons. And I mean, you could probably speak to this better than anyone based on the fact you live and breathe there and have the opportunity to run with these guys. That's the first part of the question. The other thing I wanted to ask you about was from your perspective,
Matt Fitzgerald (19:10.908)
Mm-hmm.
tyson (19:35.534)
And I guess from mine, whenever I went to a couple of weeks training like a professional athlete, one of the benefits was I could forget about work. Like usually I'd organise annual leave. I had the opportunity just to let that go. And all of a sudden that whole stress after a couple of days started to dissipate. I didn't have to think about it. That was a really noticeable advantage to training like an elite athlete. But from the people that you've had there so far, apart from what you've already mentioned, is there anything else that stands out to them about the way that professional
professionals are training or is there anything that you can speak to on that a lot of people who haven't had the opportunity to train that way haven't been exposed to?
Matt Fitzgerald (20:14.338)
Yeah, so yeah, addressing the first part. You know, running is not a fan sport in the way that, you know, football is and basketball and a lot of other sports where most people who, you know, watch the sport on television or go to arenas or stadiums to watch the sport, they don't also participate in it. But running obviously is very different where it's more participatory, which is great.
But not everyone who participates pays much attention to the elites. And for me, I always felt like I had one foot in each realm. Whereas as a student of the sport, I was really paying, and a fan of the sport, I was paying a lot of attention to the elites. But I was always an amateur myself. And I thought, for whatever reason, I gave myself permission.
as an amateur athlete to do things like the pros. I felt like I don't have to be as gifted as they are to just emulate them. And I felt that really just was a really enriching perspective to have as a runner. And that's a big part of what I wanna pass on. And that's why it's very important for me. Even for those, some runners come here and they're geeks. They do...
They know the runners on NAZ Elite. They're excited to meet them and be around them. Others have no clue, but they get just as much benefit from the exposure because they really are, there's just something about putting these slower, often older, often less experienced runners into contact. Sometimes I've had them doing basically the same workout in the same place at the same time.
as these really, really fast, remarkable athletes. And they come away just lit up. They are inspired. Like, they might have initially had trepidation. Oh, they're just going to show me up and remind me of how bad I am at running. But that is not the experience they have at all, where they just soak it up. And there's like,
Yeah, there's an inspirational sort of emotional aspect to it, but there's also like a practical aspect where they really see how professional these athletes are. They're having fun, but they're also meticulous. They're also methodical. They're approaching it very seriously, and that rubs off as well. So that gets to the second part of your question, which is like what I've seen so far is
Aside from people really appreciating the value of not doing a lot between workouts, you know, and just really relaxing and letting that blood pressure come down. The other thing is like the attention to the small stuff, you know, so like, you know, the runners to come here, whether they like it or not, they're going to do pro style warmups, which have a lot more parts and take and take a lot longer than the warmups they rush through at home.
They might even know basically how the pros do it, but they just, you know, when no one's looking, you know, they cut corners, but here, like we, we do all that stuff and, you know, I've had, again, it's a small sample size because we've only been open a few weeks, but the runners who come through here, you know, I've heard it a few times already. It's like, wow, I can't believe how good I feel. I can't believe how well my body is absorbing the work I'm doing. And I'm like, yeah, you know, that's because you're doing.
you're doing the little things like the pros do.
tyson (24:02.474)
Yeah, yeah. And what are some of those little things that you're implementing? I mean, this is probably a broader subject even to take in your long COVID at the moment. I'm sure there's plenty of things that you're having to do on the recovery side, which is trying to restore your health back to where it was pre-COVID. Are there some things that you've found really beneficial on a personal level, either for your running or just where you're at now? For me, I can't overemphasize how good I feel when I have just that downtime. My wife and I, back in 2017,
We walked the Camino de Santiago and it was a three week journey. We covered, I think it was about 300 kilometers of hiking. And as I said before, after about a week, we started just to really get into a rhythm. We'd forgotten about work. We'd started to meet some locals. And I just remember being on a walk one day, just going, I feel absolutely incredible. Like I felt like something deep within me was being recharged. What sort of makes you feel as though the tank's being filled up or what has worked for you?
Matt Fitzgerald (24:43.866)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
tyson (24:58.386)
other from a running level or a recovery level.
Matt Fitzgerald (25:02.122)
Yeah, I mean, that's a great point because, you know, I'm a relatively scientifically-minded person, so I look to science and, you know, experimental empirical evidence that something we think might work actually does, or that something we hope might work doesn't. But, you know,
There are some things that science really kind of it lays up to now struggles to quantify that any athlete who's experienced it will say, well, I don't need a study to tell me that like being in an environment where, that I feel is conducive to being a runner helps. And that is both the natural environment and the social environment.
And for me, that was huge. I remember talking to Tommy Rivers Tusi about this when I was here in 2017, where I remember, I was like, I was only a few weeks into those 13 weeks when we ran together one day and he asked, Matt, how are things going? I'm like, unbelievably well. I feel like I'm aging in reverse. And he told me a story about a stint of training he did in Costa Rica.
where it was like he was breaking all the rules about how you're supposed to periodize your training. He was like, but he, he ended up just like leveling up as an athlete and it was, and he, his takeaway was like, it was just because I was just so happy to be there. Like, you know, there was just like, like all oars were pulling in the right direction in the same direction for him in terms of, of being someone who'd love running and aspire to be as good as he could be. And
And that's what, that's a big part of, of what people get out of coming to dream run camp is that is it, it's the environment. So, you know, it's almost like the opposite of the little things actually. Um, where it's like, you know, like, but it's like that they're connected. You know what I mean? Cause like, like here, I make a point of going to bed at eight o'clock at night. You know, it's like when the host leaves the party at 8 PM that sends a message.
You know, and so everyone's getting a lot of sleep here. And, you know, like, you know, I'm always there to just like, not in a fussy sort of like, you know, school marmish type of way, just being like, okay, we're gonna go out to a run, make sure you have your recovery drink, you know, packed and ready to go with you so that you can get on that. And these little habits that people start to like, so you're sort of like connecting the
the conducive environment, you know, natural and social environment with the little details that actually sort of reinforce the idea that, oh yeah, I am truly all in. And the little things are the big things. It's like they sort of, it comes together from both sides and connects and creates a kind of magic that is hard to quantify.
tyson (28:12.894)
It's such a good point. I love that point. Like the opposite of taking care of the little things. Cause that is something that we hear a lot in the world of distance running and it's important. Obviously we need to take care of the little things, but yeah, I love the idea that you also have to take care of the massive overarching things that are so blatantly in your face that sometimes the quality on the little or the focus on the quality of the little things are ignored. I, um, I'm not sure if you've seen the, uh, the tour unchanged the Netflix eight part series, which has come out, I think fairly recently.
Matt Fitzgerald (28:27.811)
Really? Yeah
tyson (28:42.998)
But I turned it on just under the recommendation of a mate recently. And since Lance Armstrong, I'd been defending him as a 15 year old kid. And I had this weird bitterness because I didn't consider every other writer was doping back in the day. But I didn't watch the tour for about 15 years. And then a mate sent this documentary through to me the other day and I started watching it. And one thing that stood out, which I mean, you've got to have just incredible respect for is not only the distances that these guys are covering on a daily basis.
but the element of recovery and hydration and sleep. And I mean, I don't think there's a professional athlete that you can look to. I mean, I'm sure there's an exception if you look hard enough, but on the whole, you would imagine that the small things and the big things are taken care of in a big way. Sleep, something that you mentioned just before, I read recently that in 1940s in America, the average American was getting about eight hours worth of sleep. And fast forward to today, the average American's getting about 6.6 hours
Matt Fitzgerald (29:16.038)
Mm-hmm.
tyson (29:41.81)
on average, and this has gone back a few years, and obviously there's a lot of factors that come into that, but one of them is just that constant exposure to new and exciting things, whether it is the Netflix or the phone or whatever else. So I like the idea of you having a really big impact on that element of sleep. Is that something you can speak to at all? Is that a big focus of your own recovery, both now and when you're trying to run marathon PBs?
Matt Fitzgerald (29:52.736)
Yup.
Yeah, it is like, you know, if you look at the East African runners who obviously, you know, the Ethiopians and the Kenyans, they dominate. I know there have been some doping scandals, but like, you know, for the most part, it's things other than EPO that are enabling those athletes to perform at a very, and there's just the depth is incredible and undeniable.
tyson (30:29.539)
Hehehe
Matt Fitzgerald (30:36.57)
And, you know, I've been to Kenya and the lifestyle there is very much more like the lifestyle at Dream Run Camp than it is like the lifestyle of people, Americans, when they're at home, when they're not here. And that is very much by design, you know. In one of my books, I shared the daily routine of
Matt Fitzgerald (31:06.574)
an elite Kenyan runner, just like what he did in a day. And like, when you look at like, you know, it's like, you know, 5 a.m. wake up, 6 a.m. run, like almost all of it is various forms of not doing anything. It's like, that's the backdrop is just like, you know, just, you know, just sort of like a relaxed kind of placid overall, not frenetic type of lifestyle.
Um, which is, it's really hard to achieve, uh, in a lot of societies, um, today. And you know, like, I'm not the guy to fix that, but, uh, like I do want dream run camp to be kind of an Oasis where people can unplug for, from that. For long enough to see what a difference it makes, you know, when you're just able to kind of decompress and yeah, you know, absolutely do really hard and challenging things, but like not.
12 different hard and challenging things, but just one. And the rest of it is sort of supportive and complimentary to the hard thing you're trying to do. And for me, I've just been always my entire life jealously protective of my sleep. One of the many symptoms of long COVID is insomnia. So I actually have to take medication in order to be able to sleep.
tyson (32:07.182)
Hehehe
Matt Fitzgerald (32:31.758)
But even on top of that, okay, there's a time and a place to rely on pharmaceuticals to, you know, for your health. But even apart from that, it's still more of a habit. It's still more of like the same old me saying, no, like sleep comes before everything. And I mean everything. And people get that message when they come here. I've had some night owls come here and it's like, you got to go along to get along at Dream Run Camp. It's like we are big on.
tyson (32:47.585)
Yes.
Matt Fitzgerald (33:01.014)
sleep, rest, relaxation, and recovery. So that you can work really, really hard when it's time to.
tyson (33:08.402)
Yeah, that makes so much sense. I think it's gonna be a few years until I can bring me and my kids to dream run camp because I'm like you, I've been really defensive about sleep for a long time, but the last three years, I tell you, if there's one thing that's stuffed it up, it's having two kids under three. Some mornings at 2 a.m., I go, I know this is not the best for my recovery and I know I'm gonna pay for this, but my wife gets angry if I make her go up and get him again. I promised to carry some of the weight, so I gotta come through on that, but.
Matt Fitzgerald (33:24.432)
Yeah.
Yeah.
tyson (33:36.49)
It is so true. I can speak to that. Like the last three nights, I was saying to my wife this morning, I've had the most incredible sleeps that I've got two boys and both of them have slept through really well. And as a result, my wife, Jesse and I have slept through really well. And we wake up in the morning and we're like, well, not only does the world feel like a better place, like I think I love you more than I did yesterday. It's amazing how just a couple of good nights sleep. And I mean, I don't know where I heard this the other day, but I was, I was listening to,
Matt Fitzgerald (33:56.435)
Hahaha! Yeah!
tyson (34:05.774)
to somebody speak about a number of the characteristics that come with developing dementia. And one of the standout factors was over the course of decades or over the course of many, many years, just a lack of focus on sleep and not just a lack of focus on sleep, but the lack of ability to be able to actually hit some really good night's sleep. And I thought, man, like speak of the big things with long-term impact. If it's doing that to your mind, I can't even imagine what it is doing to the rest of your body. And
One thing that Sarah Gearhart said when she was focused, and to go back to your point of just doing various things, which are essentially nothing, Patrick Sang sounds like that kind of guy. So for everyone listening, Sarah Gearhart wrote, we share the sun with Patrick Sang is the head coach of particular group of Kenyan athletes. And the standout feature to her was everything just felt so relaxed. Like from his approach to coaching the greatest runners, his approach to recovery.
It just seemed like such a sense of simplicity was the word she kept using. And I thought it's interesting that this idea of simplicity is a standout factor with the best runners in the world. Cause especially here in the West, we can get so caught up on the trinkets and the garments and everything else, which do play a monstrous role, obviously. But sometimes at the expense of just being able to go with the flow a little more.
Matt Fitzgerald (35:27.926)
Yeah, I mean, for sure. I mean, and you even see that even in Western societies or whatever. So every Thursday, we have one, like a local professional runner, usually a member of NAZ Elite or a coach or other local running celebrity come to Dream Run Camp for something we call live from Dream Run Camp. So we just do like a Q&A.
And it's for anyone who's like here in person, but we also stream it live on YouTube. And our most recent guest was Jenna Reed, who's one of the coaches for NAZ Elite. And I asked her, like, you know, in your experience, like what makes the elites, you know, she's, you know, she was an amateur runner herself, ran in college at a fairly high level, and then coached in college. And now she, you know, she is with...
world-class athletes. I just her entire focus. So she has a basis for comparison. I said, you know, what makes those athletes at the very pinnacle different, you know, above the neck. And, and she said, you know, she would no hesitation at all. She said like, they are level headed, like they just, they don't get too high. They don't get too low. They're like very even keeled. They just roll, roll through stuff.
You know, like, like running is a challenging and often cruel sport. You know, it will mess with your emotions. And for sure, you have to be physically gifted in order to become an elite athlete. But that alone doesn't suffice. And I've said that's that resonates with my experience as well. Like, you know, these folks are as special psychologically as they are physiologically. And and you know what? What Jenna said is like, you know, what in her experience, what makes them special is.
You know, that they're just, you know, the same thing as what Patrick sang is saying when like, you know, he's like, we try to be relaxed. Yes.
tyson (37:28.894)
Yeah. There was a, I used to work at a church here in Australia as a youth pastor. And when I was working there, there was a guy called Dan Leanne, who now actually, he helps run a church in the States, Northern Carolina. But one thing that he used to say to the up and coming preachers, which was like a big passion of mine at the time, was, was don't let your highs get too high and don't get your lows get too low. Cause obviously you get a lot of praise when you're up in front of a room full of people, if they like what you had to say.
but you also get a lot of criticism because obviously the Bible is a fairly controversial book at the best of times. And even when you get a room full of people who apparently agree on it, there's little intricacies that are disagreed upon in a pretty big way. So, I mean, there was plenty of stages where you'd get off and you go, oh man, I nailed that. And someone would come up and go, you completely got this wrong. And I mean, it applies, it always stuck with me because I was competing as an athlete at that time. And I had a reputation. So if I ran a PB,
Matt Fitzgerald (38:07.791)
Hahaha
Hahahaha
tyson (38:27.222)
I'd be up and about for a week and if I was in bad form, I would be down in the dumps. And I thought, well, and I think the Buddhists call it like the middle way or the middle path, just this idea of just not being blown around too much by the highs and lows that every element of life, you know, offers you. And it is interesting how well that just correlates to every single element that we put our feet in. I mean, it's a daily focus of mine still, because I think like every human, I have the capacity to just get overexcited and then.
Matt Fitzgerald (38:35.2)
Mm-hmm, yep.
tyson (38:55.482)
you know, too depressed about silly things. So it's definitely, I mean, it's an awesome philosophy and you know it's true, but I guess like fitness, it has to constantly be worked upon.
Matt Fitzgerald (39:05.026)
Yeah, I do think, I mean, you have to be realistic. I mean, we live in the world we live in now and there are, you sort of have to swim against the stream in order to serve your best interests as an athlete and really as a human. I remember when I was, I spent two weeks in Kenya in 2015.
And, you know, it made such a powerful impression on me. You know, this is like, this is why we travel, right? It's like, wow, it is so different. And it was different in a way that was almost shaming to me. It was like, wow. I mean, obviously they have a lot of, plenty of problems there, but like, I was really focused on the stuff that I thought was different and better. And I remember coming home and thinking, I need to bottle this. Like, I need to like, I need to like bottle.
Like I need to have my, I need to come home with my inner Kenyan and be able to like, you know, you know, just channel my inner Kenyan, um, you know, for, for my own sake and, you know, it sounds kind of silly, but I think it, I think it actually worked, you know, because like, I couldn't unremember that experience and like, yeah, I got caught back up in, in my, my life and in America.
But I did, that experience did change me. You know, I did take away, because I was intentional about it. I'm like, well, this matters. I want to hold onto this. And that is something I'm trying to offer here at Dream Run Camp. Again, being realistic, people are only here for a few weeks. But I, and I talk about this with the individual runners who come here. It's like, you know, how's this working out for you? How do you feel about it? And, you know, it's...
almost all positive. It's like, wouldn't you like to bottle this and take it home with you? Okay, well, let's talk about what it would take. You know, and it's early again, it's early days. And so I'm trying to see, I try to keep in touch with everyone who goes home from here. But I would like to think that that's possible that you can have what, you know, the humanistic psychologists call like, you know, a peak experience here, where it's like, it's not just two weeks, and then back to reality, but it's two weeks or however long.
and then you return back to your normal everyday life changed, you know, in a way that you're able to carry forward.
tyson (41:29.35)
Yeah, yeah, no, that's really good, man. I'm really excited. So for anyone who's interested in this, obviously, I've linked descriptions and things in the show notes below. Before I let you go, I've got to ask how, how is your recovery actually going? I know you said it's been a long process, three years, you said, are you seeing signs of improvement? Are you getting closer to what you were pre COVID or and what are sort of the symptoms that you're experiencing?
Matt Fitzgerald (41:51.51)
Yeah, I wish I could say I was on a track of overall improvement. I have fewer, I mean, I've had more than 30 different symptoms at one time or another, and some of the ones that were really, really troubling for me early on, you know, some of the like brain fog, you know, there were times where I couldn't even write, you know, because like my brain just wasn't working. So, so my, my worst symptoms are
are probably still as bad as they ever were. Things like fatigue, exercise intolerance, shortness of breath, just general malaise. They're ever present. As I speak to you now, I feel kinda crappy, to be honest. And so, overall, it's with me every day, but there has been sort of a consolidation of symptoms and I've been able to
There's no cure at this point, but there is symptom management. So I mentioned earlier, I take something so I can sleep better. I take something that helps with neuroinflammation, which is responsible for a lot of the cognitive issues and mood issues that are associated with long COVID. And so mostly it's just like my focus has been, and I know other people with long COVID who are just frantic, trying to like...
get healed and spending a lot of money and not necessarily, you know, being any better off than I am. So my approach has been, I just want to live my best life. I don't want to miss out on therapeutics that come along that could make a difference. I tend to err on the side of grin and bear it. And I try to be aware of that and like keep one eye on things that can help me feel and function better, but also one eye steadfastly on just
making the best of where I am today. So on it goes. Yep.
tyson (43:53.33)
Yeah. Well, good luck, man. For what it's worth, you've come across crystal clear. You could have fooled me. You don't seem tired. You don't seem fatigued. You seem as clear as ever. So, man, it's always a great opportunity or a great honor to have you on the show to speak about this. I'm really excited about the Dream Run Camp. Yeah, for anyone interested, check out the show notes. I'll make sure I'll link your website and everything related to you as well. So.
Matt Fitzgerald (44:02.112)
Yeah.
tyson (44:17.694)
Hey, thank you so much again for making the time. Really appreciate it, man. And yeah, next time you've got anything to share, you know who to reach out to, because you're always welcome.
Matt Fitzgerald (44:25.41)
Right on. Yeah, always love talking to you, Tyson.
tyson (44:27.874)
Alright man, we'll leave it there. See you later everybody.