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Join Derek Hudson as he explores Essential Dynamics, a framework for approaching the challenges facing people and organizations. Consider your Quest!
Welcome to Essential Dynamics. I'm Derek Hudson, the developer of Essential Dynamics Framework and host of the Essential Dynamics podcast. Very excited today to have Allie Jones with me. Allie, welcome to Essential Dynamics.
Allie:Thanks, Derek. I'm so happy to be here.
Derek:So Allie, this is a momentous occasion for us because I don't keep records that well, but this is the one hundred and twenty first episode of Essential Dynamics. And I think it might be the first one where the guest found me and said, hey, what you're doing is cool. Can I get involved? So before you answer my question about that, just tell us a little bit about yourself and then tell us what interested you about Essential Dynamics.
Allie:Okay, cool. Yeah. That's that's awesome. I am a marketing consultant as well as a business and leadership coach. But before I did that, I had I was a third grade teacher for for several years.
Allie:Loved it. Third graders are so cool. They think deeply, and they ask the best questions, and are so excited. And sadly, I am one of many people who got really burnt out as a teacher. And so being burnt out at 28 is is what I lovingly call a quarter life crisis.
Allie:And in my in that burnout, I tried to rebuild a work life and a career that was gonna be more sustainable and more aligned with who I am and what I thought work could be. Because I I just don't believe in the story that work needs to be a grind. And so I love thinking through how work can be set up in a way where people can really thrive, and that's really where my consulting is rooted in and how to help people thrive at work and life. I love what you're doing with essential dynamics and just having deep conversations about how work can be better. And those threads that you have around path, purpose, and people, those things really do become these cornerstones for your own kind of a ripple effect and starting through who am I, and how do I show up, and what am I here to do, and what's my purpose?
Allie:Aligning that within a team dynamic and someone and and within a leadership context where we're all rowing in the same direction and getting to accomplish something and bringing my own strengths to the table as I was burnt out and trying to figure out what to do. You know, I started out as a solo freelance writer traveling around traveling around. I I did the the thing that a lot of millennials do, and I packed up my car and traveled around the West Coast, ended up in Canada for a little bit through house sitting and started freelance writing. But then I slowly did start building back this team approach. And as freelance writing turned into marketing, got enough work that I started hiring people, and then being a really a thought leader in strategic planning with the clients that I was a part of, I started rebuilding this team approach.
Allie:And so now I'm really passionate about helping people find their place and their purpose and their path. And I love that that alliteration. The third grade teacher in me loves that. But I also love having deep conversations with people about stuff that matters. And so that really checked a lot of boxes for me and thought, man, I'd I'd love to have a conversation with this guy.
Allie:This sounds fun.
Derek:Well, I'm thrilled that you found me and that we put that together. Not easily determined from looking at my stuff online. I am surrounded by teachers and I have have always been. My my father was an elementary school principal. And back in the days when there, you know, there weren't that many well, I don't even think it's there now.
Derek:There there aren't that many men in elementary schools.
Allie:No. That's right.
Derek:And and he just he just was great. He was great with kids. He was a great dad and elementary school teacher. And as a result, my my wife, my sisters, their husbands, one of my daughters are all teachers who are involved in education system. And I have a daughter who's an occupational therapist who works in the public school system to help teachers with the kids on the perimeter of their classrooms and helping them be successful.
Derek:And so I really respect the profession. But I think what's great about teaching at the early ages is that it's not about content. Like the teacher knows the stuff. It's, you know, it's basic math, it's reading, it's what's going on in the world. So it's all about how you help the young minds grab onto it.
Derek:And that's one of the, as I think about it now, that's one of the reasons that I've been putting this Essential Dynamics framework together and why I've been careful about it, is as a consultant, one of the things that I learned and actually as a business executive as well is, the limiting factor to how much material is adopted is in the student or the client. It's always the instructor or the consultant or the boss can always give you more than you can take in. And so the question is, how do we have kind of an equal relationship and put in front of people stuff that they need, that they want and that they're willing to grab onto? That's kind of an underlying mindset when I put the Essential Dynamics framework together. So I think one of the things that should really talk about then is that inaction between the individual and trying to get a work experience for them that's sustainable and not susceptible to burnout in your twenties, which sounds horrible.
Derek:And then what happens when we put all those people in a room and we try to get something done at work?
Allie:That's right.
Derek:And so what have you learned about that? Because you did start with your own kind of, let's say quest, because we're at Essential Dynamics.
Allie:Yes.
Derek:Your own quest to find your path. And now you've managed to stitch that into something where a lot of other people are involved. And then you work with a client, obviously, that would have a number of people involved in anything you're trying to do in their organization.
Allie:So Yeah. So it's interesting in I think a lot of us want to find purpose and fulfillment in work. And the way we come about that or our strategies and approaches probably relate a lot to how you were alluding to how we were raised, what we saw in our parents. And so I think there, I would say, for me, the cornerstone always comes back to self awareness. And really, that word gets thrown out a lot.
Allie:So what I really mean is curiosity and the metacognition of what's going on here? Why do I feel drained by this? Wow. That activity or that workplace, work didn't feel like work. I just felt like I was in flow.
Allie:The hours flew by. Why is that? Or that that boss really rubs me the wrong way. Why just getting curious. I think curiosity towards self, and then not even necessarily navel gazing or getting super introspective, but being able to have people in your life and processes in place to be able to reflect and grow and learn from that curiosity early on in the school setting, in your first job, helps set you on a trajectory to be able to figure out who am I, how am I wired, what am I here to do in the world, and and what's the next step, what's the arrow in the direction I can move, And not having to get it all figured out right out of the gate as a senior in high school or even in your first job.
Allie:You know? Many people don't end up in careers that align with what their degree says they're qualified to do, But I think it's that individual job satisfaction, that's the tension, you know, and the juxtaposition is then, like, the team dynamic and the culture and the and the group of people moving in the right direction. But where it starts for me is self awareness rooted in curiosity.
Derek:So you said two words in there that I want to pick up on just because I'm always looking to build the connections with essential dynamics. One of them was metacognition, which I don't think I've heard that word, you know, in a long... Thrown around in a podcast?
Derek:No, not. No, but let me see if I can understand that. So metacognition is thinking about your thinking, is that right?
Allie:Yes.
Derek:Okay. So what I talk about in Essential Dynamics is there's a system in an organization, whether you think of it as a system or not, there's a way that an organization creates value, The way it does its work. And you can think about there's raw materials and then they get processed and then something goes out the loading dock onto a truck and that's the value creation system of a business. And I like to think about the fact that there's also a level above that which I call the meta system, which is the system for working on the system. And so it's like organizational self awareness.
Derek:And I also think that when you're in the system, you can't see the system. And so you said you have people and you have processes to pull you out so you can get from outside your head and into the metacognition level, which is now I'm thinking about what I'm doing. Is that, is that what you're talking about?
Allie:Totally. Yeah. I think we all probably think we're more self aware than we actually are. We can't see our blind spots, but we need people, we need coaches, we need processes, whether that's regular journaling practice or time away from being in the business to think and work on the business, you know. And so, yeah, it's it's those those systems allow for greater insights with, yeah, the people and the processes to to be able to think bigger on that meta level for sure.
Derek:Well, the last two podcast episodes were about writing as a form of thinking and a form of getting outside and seeing the system for what it is. So that was one word that I really jumped on. And then the other one was flow and you just kind of threw it out there. But you're talking about a person's work experience when they experienced flow. Tell me more about how you have come to think about that as part of what you were
Allie:Yeah.
Derek:What you're after.
Allie:So flow is is another kind of buzzword within the working world, the productivity world, but that that feeling of being locked in to the work and just feeling immersed in it, whether that's writing and losing track of time and just pen to paper is the the thoughts are flowing or, you know, for a coach, being able to have that one on one connection and a conversation where there's just one and one one plus one equals three. There's something bigger going on. And I so I think this is where, you know, that self awareness and and learning comes into place. For me, each realizing each of us have different things that bring us to that state of flow. So different parts of a work process.
Allie:For some of us, it's give me a whiteboard and a marker and help me. I just wanna brainstorm. And for others, it's like, give me a spreadsheet and a to do list, and I just wanna tap check off those tasks, get things dialed in, make sure every I is dotted and t is crossed. And so so for example, I have two members of my team, my marketing agency, and they have different gifts, different strengths, and I'm kinda alluding to the topic we'll get into of geniuses. So Megan, my graphic designer, her geniuses are in wonder and invention, and I'll get into that more.
Allie:But what that means is Megan loves diving into creating a new brand and coming up with a concept and thinking about the bigger picture of I know the the scope of work is this, but what if we approached it this other way? And she just is in her element in those spaces and that creativity, she'll get lost for hours in color schemes and designs and all of that. Melissa is my project manager and content creator, and she has a geniuses of enablement. Enablement. She comes alongside, and how can I help?
Allie:And let's move things forward. And also, tenacity is her other genius. And so she wants to get things done. She keeps me on track, and she'll send me, hey. I'm just giving you a gentle reminder that we need to get those edits in for this client by this time.
Allie:And she is she it fills her cup to be helping come alongside and support getting stuff done. She's got her planner in front of her with her tasks for the day, and she's just crafting stuff off. They're in flow. But if we asked them to switch roles for a day, neither of them would be in flow. They would feel stressed, drained, frustrated.
Allie:They would quit on me if I was asking them to do work in their other areas of the other person's area of genius.
Derek:Okay. So we got to get to the working genius right away. I just wanna grab on to Flo for a couple couple more things.
Allie:Mhmm.
Derek:I just wanna say the guy's name, so I gotta take a run at it. But it's Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi who wrote the book Flow. That's what you're talking about, right?
Derek:Yep. We've referred to his work on a number of times on the podcast. And what I'm trying to do and maybe this is for our next conversation is think about flow in an organization as an analog to that flow that we experience personally. And then just to highlight one aspect of flow that which you said, which is that that fills her cup. And so if we talk about flow, I talked about, you know, an organization creating value as a flow. The thing about flow is it has to recirculate. We need to be able to produce something in exchange for something else that we can feed back in and do it again.
Allie:Yes.
Derek:And so what you're telling me is for personal flow, one of the reasons that we don't feel the passage of time or you're not aware of anything else is you have everything that you need in the moment for what you're doing. And it's not that you're not working hard. Mhmm. Oh, yeah. It's that there's a demand placed on you but the work creates the capacity as well to some degree.
Allie:Yeah. There's output and it might even be a challenge but there's also input in I don't know what would you call that? I guess intrinsic motivation or the sense of purpose alignment is bringing something to the table.
Derek:Yeah. And the way that I talk about it is, you know, there was value flow. Organizations also have cash flow and information flow. But the one that I've came to last, which I think is critical, is energy flow.
Allie:Yes.
Derek:And so energy, we invest energy and then we get a return or recovery of energy. And so if you're in that flow state as a person, it does create its energy. It's not just a drain. Right. And so maybe you could tell me about working geniuses and how that affects people's energy flow.
Allie:Yeah. So working genius is a framework that was developed by Patrick Lencioni. He is an author that wrote a more well known book of his would be, the five dysfunctions of a team. Yep. He's in this thought leader space of group workplace culture, I would say.
Allie:And so this this latest book of his and and framework is based on this premise that we're talking about of energy and what that there are different stages of work that end up bringing certain people joy or energy naturally were were more fulfilled by certain parts of work than others. There are six different geniuses, and people have two areas of genius in that they are naturally fulfilled and find joy out of those parts of work. And then two areas of work that are more frustrations, which doesn't necessarily mean that you're bad at it, more that you would find it frustrating. You would have a tendency to wanna skip or shortcut or fast forward through those stages. And then those middle two would be areas of competency.
Allie:You're probably really good. The skill set's there. You don't mind doing it, but if that was your whole job, it would over time become soul sucking and kind of draining because it's not that area of joy. You're not finding that sense of flow. And I'll I'll give a rundown of those six geniuses in just a second, but overall, they they do follow a natural flow of how any type of work happens, whether you're planning a dinner party or creating a strategic plan or building a website.
Allie:It doesn't matter. You do end up going through these six stages kind of in in the lineup. So before I kinda go into the six, any thoughts or questions of that sort of broader description?
Derek:No. I I wanna hear about the six and I'm gonna really try hard not not to, like, get myself into that and analyze myself. Let's
Allie:Okay. Well, maybe we'll have to do a part a follow-up after you've taken the test and we can delve into what your areas are.
Derek:Sure. Now you have to appreciate that my training originally was accounting and accountants are always wary of taking personality tests because they don't want to be like flatline and find out they don't have one.
Allie:Oh, no.
Derek:Anyway, take take us through the six.
Allie:Alright. So let's go through the six. Alright. So the first the first two are really around the ideation stage of work. And so it starts with the genius of wonder.
Allie:And people with that genius love to ask the big questions and consider, could there be a better way to approach this? Speculating, they don't mind ambiguity. Their heads may be kinda in the cloud, and they're thinking of that bigger picture wondering how things could be better or different ways to approach the problems that we come across in our own personal work or life in general. Then comes the genius of invention. These are our classic brainstorming, coming up with ideas.
Allie:What we classically think of as genius is the genius of invention, of coming up with taking challenges and coming up with creative solutions. And they have all they may walk around within a a their little moleskin journal and writing down ideas all the time. Then we get into the genius of discernment. And and these people take those ideas and have just a natural good gut sense or intuition about what's the best way forward. People with this genius are really good at connecting the dots and seeing the connections, and I'm kind of smiling here because I'm thinking about your wiki and all of the connections and the dots and seeing the bigger picture, and then trying to determine, okay.
Allie:So how do we move forward? Going from idea to activation. And then our galvanizers, people with the genius of galvanizing, they really love to get things moving. They're more there it's a people oriented genius in assembling the team or the group of people and getting them on board to be able to implement and carry out that plan. They're rallying.
Allie:They're cheerleaders, but they're also, hey, let's get going. Let's get moving. We need you. There are projects managers. There are getting get everyone butts in the seat and moving in the right direction.
Allie:So then so we kind of have moved from ideation to activation, and then the last two geniuses are around implementation. So we've got the genius of enablement, and the people with that genius love to help get things done. Emphasis on the word help. They're great at coming alongside and trying to figure out what's the best way to help and how to help in a way that would support the work. They tend to be a little less about my way or the highway, and how can I come alongside and do it in a way that supports your agenda, your initiative?
Allie:So they're we need our enablement geniuses in our workplaces to help, you know, all hands on deck kind of attitude. And so that they're very supportive, very solutions focused in helping get things accomplished. And then the final genius is the genius of tenacity. And so there really are the tenaciousness is we gotta move this over the finish line. We actually have to do what we said we would do, and they're really good at helping us not just get it done, but get it done with excellence.
Allie:So they tend to be very detail oriented, focusing on the tasks. They're not necessarily, like, motivated by the touchy feely stuff, but more how what does action look like? How do we get this done? And so they are the ones that help land the plane, so to speak. So it kinda goes from that head in the clouds ideas, then we're at, like, the activation or sort of mid level, and then the enablement and tenacity is really, you know, boots on the ground getting the work accomplished.
Allie:We all need all geniuses. Every job requires us to do all six of those stages. But there's again, as you as I was saying that, you might be hearing like, oh, yep. That's the part I love. Or I know a person on my team who hates this part.
Allie:So we can start to see where that element of genius, frustration and competency starts to come into play.
Derek:Well, is fascinating. So this may not be a fair question because we just met, but if you go back to your burnout experience teaching third graders, What what which which of the elements were at play for that?
Allie:Yep. Okay. So I yeah. I don't mind sharing. My geniuses are in discernment and enablement.
Allie:I loved curriculum building, strategic thinking about the school wide initiatives, and even trying to figure out how am I gonna teach this kid about this concept. And I also loved the I love being coming along with students and helping them to that light bulb moment. But galvanizing is one of my frustrations, and so trying to get the people moving in the right direction or feeling like I yeah. Galvanizing can show up in different ways of, like, why it feels frustrating, but trying to get other teachers or other team members on board to help and having to try to convince them, that drains me. And then the tenacity is my other frustration.
Allie:So and this isn't what led me to burnout. Being a teacher in in these days and ages, there's just so much to do and and feeling like I want to come to my job of excellence. But the hard thing about a teacher is you show up and you are on all day, and you're in the moment. But then in all of the cracks and crevices and in the fifteen minutes between eating my lunch and scarfing it down and having to make copies for everything, I also need to reply to all these emails and get these things graded. And all the minutiae and the tasks that I didn't have the bandwidth to get done, wore me out.
Allie:Because the first few years, I show I was, you know, there till seven at night and there every weekend and getting it all done. And by year five, I just didn't have it left in me to keep that level up. And some people can, and I applaud them, hats off to them, but those were some of the reasons in the lens of the geniuses where that burnout started to show up.
Derek:That's very interesting. So it's only fair then to ask you in your current responsibilities, which you've crafted yourself. How does the genius play into the energy that you get into what you do now?
Allie:I started out freelance writing and writing blog posts and quickly found myself easily getting jobs because that enablement piece of coming alongside and supporting. What I loved about what I love about marketing is it's really listening well to that business owner, to that client of what's important to you. What are you really about? Who are you trying to connect with? And then crafting the words around how to help them connect.
Allie:And so that enablement is the role of the consultant. Right? As as a consultant, I'm coming alongside. I'm empowering you. I'm seeing that bigger picture, that meta, and able to reflect it back to you.
Allie:And then the discernment is I just naturally gravitated from writing blog posts to creating strategy. And a lot of times when people are trying to write their website, they're actually figuring out their business, And I loved those conversations. I loved helping them figure out, okay. So wait. Now let's think through.
Allie:If this is your audience, how are we gonna reach them, and what are you doing, and what's the what's the end goal here? And so I naturally really just led to those intuition judging, connecting the dots. It's who I am. It's how I'm wired, and I just found myself doing that. And so that's where Ali Jones Consulting is that kinda rising alongside illuminated marketing because that's really where my joy and fulfillment comes from.
Allie:And and now I've grown a team to be able to handle the tenacity of the blog posts and the social media and and and the the other pieces and kinda helping come alongside them and helping them discern. So I've ended up just through an iterative process, finding those roles where it's so life giving and I love getting to show up for the work I do.
Derek:So if we wanna pull this to a close, which we should do for time, the opportunity for an individual then is to understand their geniuses and in particular where they get energy and then get that in their life somehow. Is that what you're saying?
Allie:Yeah. Yeah. The work the working genius is a test you can take. It takes ten to fifteen minutes and you get this report that shows you where your areas are and it just probably has some immediate light bulb moments for you of, like, yes. This is this is so true for me.
Allie:Or to do it within a team context is also what I love getting to facilitate. But, yeah, I I'd say do it, take it, see where that that leads you in far as your own insights of where work could feel more more fulfilling and more joy joy filled.
Derek:Well, you look happy. I'm feeling the energy. I know when I'm doing things that give me energy, work isn't work. It's part of who I am. I can do it forever.
Derek:And I think it would be great if many more people had the opportunity to experience that. So, Ali, how can people find you online?
Allie:Yeah. So you can find me at alijonesconsulting.com. And I've I've got content on there about working genius and some of my other work that I do, leading teams or individuals through the working genius process to help them find more flow in work, find more joy and fulfillment.
Derek:Well, thank you very much. Let's pick this conversation up in a bit and we'll talk a little bit more about how this fits with bigger organizations. I'm Derek Hudson, a host of Essential Dynamics. You can find me at getunconstrained.com and I'd like to thank Bryn Griffiths for pushing all the buttons in the background and making us sound better than we look. And until next time, consider your quest.