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Upright Citizens is the podcast where two professional bassists - Bob DeBoo and Reuben Rogers - talk music from the bottom up. Every episode breaks down a real technique, a real recording, or a real story from a career on the road and in the studio, so you walk away with something you can actually put into your hands that day.
Expect deep dives on walking bass lines, swing, groove, and tone, interviews with legendary artists, road stories that are actually funny, and straight talk on practicing and listening better. Whether you play upright, electric, or just love the low end, this is where two bass nerds figure it out.
New episodes monthly, in audio and video.
UPRIGHT CITIZENS — EPISODE 1
"Why Your Bass Lines Don't Swing (The Ron Carter Secret)"
Intro
BOB: You're playing all the right notes. You know the changes, your time is good — everything. So why doesn't your bass line sound like it's dancing? Well, the real answer is hiding in the recordings, in what the masters are actually doing. And today, we're going to show you the one thing that changes everything.
BOB: Welcome to Upright Citizens, where two bass nerds share how they think about music —
REUBEN: From the bottom up.
---
WELCOME TO UPRIGHT CITIZENS
BOB: What's up, Reuben?
REUBEN: What's up, Bob? How are you?
BOB: I'm doing good. Look at the bright lights — look at these beautiful bright lights. It's good to be under them with you, sir.
REUBEN: Yes, sir. We're evolving. We're on screen now.
BOB: Just a tiny, tiny, tiny bit.
REUBEN: Beautiful.
BOB: Yeah.
REUBEN: Beautiful. What are we jumping into today?
BOB: Well, I always love our conversations here at Upright Citizens, and we've got some fun topics in mind for today. But before we do anything else — let's listen to this.
REUBEN: Okay.
[CLIP: Ron Carter & Yotam Silberstein]
---
LISTEN TO THIS: RON CARTER DUO
REUBEN: Mm. Mm. With that pa, boom, boom.
BOB: What do you feel? How does that make you feel, Reuben?
REUBEN: Hmm. Warm. Inviting. Cozy —
BOB: Cozy?
REUBEN: A little bit. Yeah, a little bit. Like we're part of the party.
BOB: Yeah, those broad notes.
REUBEN: Now we're talking. I mean, yeah, that's what it is. They're inviting. They're warm. They engulf the music — at least, definitely the little duo thing that we heard.
BOB: But what was that, actually?
REUBEN: So that was the maestro Ron Carter —
BOB: Oh, of course. I knew that, but still.
REUBEN: — with Yotam Silberstein on guitar. It's an unreleased track — a new single that just came out, I think, earlier this week, but we're filming this a little earlier.
BOB: Uh-huh.
REUBEN: And so what we're hearing there — it's so swinging, what Ron is playing on the bass.
BOB: No doubt.
REUBEN: Of course. But it's not just the notes he's playing, not just the pitches — which are excellent, beautiful intonation, his attack is amazing. As a matter of fact, I really like the quality of the bass, the way it's recorded. I feel like I haven't heard Ron sound that clear in quite a while. Maybe it's also because there's no drums covering up his sound, but you can actually hear the pitch, the articulation of the notes, better than you usually can, I feel.
BOB: Absolutely. It's a very transparent sound.
REUBEN: Yeah. No doubt.
---
A WORD FROM OPEN STUDIO
BOB: Beautiful, beautiful. Hey, real quick — if you love bass and getting deep into more musical concepts that we talk about here on Upright Citizens, then you should know there's a whole other world of this at Open Studio. That's our home base. We have courses for all experience levels, a global online community of musicians just like yourself, master classes, and more. So if you're serious about music, then openstudiojazz.com is the place for you. That's openstudiojazz.com. Now, back to the show.
REUBEN: Yep.
---
DIGGING IN: THREE WAYS TO WALK A BASS LINE
BOB: That's really the crux of what we're getting into today —
REUBEN: No doubt.
BOB: — is why it sounds like that, and how we can get our bass lines swinging like Ron Carter's.
REUBEN: Okay. Come on, teach me. Come on. Jump into it. Let me know.
BOB: So let's dig in. Let's talk about what we can do to get a little closer to that sound the maestro was doing. Now, there's a few different ways we can think about walking bass lines. We heard Ron Carter there playing in two, and towards the end, we heard him walking — we heard these long, broad notes. And that's usually where we can hear a defining characteristic between somebody who's not been playing that long, or maybe is newer to the style. I always bring it back to the idea of it being like a ride cymbal — you hear the clear attack when a drummer hits the cymbal, and you hear that decay until they hit it again. What are your thoughts on that? You agree?
REUBEN: Definitely.
BOB: Now let's break it down even more. Are you saying the quarter note, the half note, the whole note — what exactly are you talking about?
REUBEN: I think both.
BOB: Okay.
REUBEN: I think both.
BOB: All right. Now, it can be really hip, of course, to close the note and make it a little shorter, intentionally. But what I hear is a lot of bass players — again, maybe who haven't been doing this very long — do it unintentionally.
REUBEN: Can you show us?
BOB: So, like you mentioned, it's kind of like this — if I'm playing a two feel, maybe on... I'll play the changes we just heard. [demonstrates on bass] Not so swinging, right? Because it's cut off. Now, we can do that, and stylistically that might be what's happening. But — [demonstrates again] — now I'm trying to connect these notes and make it bounce a little bit more. You know what I mean?
REUBEN: Right.
BOB: But what I think is really hip, too, is to mix those.
REUBEN: Right, mm-hmm.
BOB: Mix that up — which I hear you doing amazing, and I want to hear you play it.
REUBEN: [demonstrates on bass] Well, the whole thing is that the whole notes — or the broad notes, I don't know, that's the main thing. I always say "broad" because, I don't know, it's a hipper way to say long, I guess.
BOB: Because you mean long, right?
REUBEN: Yeah. The broad notes mean something — actually, the shorter notes mean something, because you come from the basis of the broader note. If that's the foundation, those shorter notes kind of go, "Oh, well, wait, what's that?" They define themselves.
BOB: Yeah, absolutely. You know what I'm saying?
REUBEN: I hear you. Yeah — because the broader notes feel good, it's the foundation, and it always feels better to me.
BOB: I have preached that on Upright Citizens plenty of times.
REUBEN: Oh, yeah — if you go back and listen to the hundred-something episodes we've done —
BOB: Self plug.
REUBEN: But the shorter notes are also where the personality comes out, most of the time.
BOB: Absolutely. You know what I mean?
REUBEN: Yeah, definitely.
---
THE CAMARA KAMBON STUDIO STORY
REUBEN: I don't know, maybe I should break into this story that I have. Let me pull out this pork chop right here for a minute — because this applies to any bass, not just upright. I started to think about broader notes really from doing these sessions with this great filmmaker and composer, Camara Kambon. He's a great friend of mine — well, he was a great friend. Camara, if you're out there, I haven't seen you in a long time — hope we're still friends.
But I used to go to LA, early on in my career, when I was a youngster, coming to town to play gigs with whoever. And I would call Camara — I'd be like, "Hey, Camara, I'm in town." He'd be like, "Great, man, I want you to come in and do some tracks on these recordings." It could be whatever. He was one of the — I don't know if he still is — but he was a filmmaker, and he also was a writer for Dr. Dre at that time. So he'd do all these kind of tracks, ghostwriting.
BOB: Oh, yeah.
REUBEN: So I would just come in and do random things, right? Anyway, I remember this one session — I came in, and he had me playing, I think it was on electric, as far as I remember. And he'd be in the booth, and he's like, "All right, just play to this track." I had to learn it, and it might be some random chords, could be a whole band, whatever it was at the time. I remember, maybe — I can't recall exactly what it was, but something similar to this.
BOB: You were composing a bass line on the spot —
REUBEN: I was — yes.
BOB: — or he had something in mind for you?
REUBEN: No, I was composing a bass line, or playing off of something that was already there.
BOB: Sure.
REUBEN: So it was something like maybe [demonstrates on bass]. And I was playing it like that — relatively long notes, it sounded to me.
BOB: Right? Yeah.
REUBEN: Relatively long. And maybe it was even slower, and he got on the intercom, and he says, "Reuben, can you please hold those notes over to the next beat?" That's the way he put it. He was like, "Each note I need you to play, make sure it rings out till the next beat — all the way." And I was like, "Huh?" And he made me play more like [demonstrates]. "If I'm going to do any inflections, make sure the next note is long." Got it? So you're going one, two, three, four. [demonstrates]
I remember, actually — that's why it's coming back to me, that was the rhythm. But I guess his whole thing was: whether it's a half note, quarter note, whatever, make sure it has as much length as possible.
BOB: Right, you know what I mean?
REUBEN: Yeah, so it keeps the foundation. And when he said that, the main thing I took from it is that trying to get to the very end of the note is what really makes it feel different. It feels better, really, to me.
BOB: Interesting.
REUBEN: [demonstrates] I'm being very deliberate right now, but —
BOB: A question — do you recall, was that bass line, when you're doing the attacks, connected with the bass drum and the beat you were hearing?
REUBEN: Probably. Do you recall?
BOB: Probably — because it's a different thing if we're thinking in a jazz sense, if we're thinking about the two-feel I was doing earlier, and maybe doing something in four, walking — well, that's more of a connection with the ride cymbal, like the analogy I was talking about earlier.
REUBEN: Well, I think it — [demonstrates] — I'm being very intentional here, too.
BOB: Yeah.
REUBEN: [demonstrates] Instead of — I don't even know how to play it —
BOB: With a little space. It's hard to do, isn't it?
REUBEN: I don't even know how to do it shorter anymore. It's really the truth — you have to be really intentional. It doesn't feel —
BOB: Right.
REUBEN: It feels almost comical.
BOB: Right.
REUBEN: But if you're thinking more like this — [demonstrates] — it's maybe more connected to how you'd hear that spang-a-lang on the cymbal.
BOB: But also — dang, dang, dang — I think it's also the way you're intentional about the inflections, too, because when you do the inflections — how long can you make those, too?
REUBEN: Right?
BOB: Yeah, we're getting into the —
REUBEN: But that's where it's at.
BOB: It's true.
---
RIGHT HAND VS. LEFT HAND MECHANICS
REUBEN: How do you actually do this on the bass, though — without showing? There's a right hand, and then there's the left hand.
BOB: Right — so there's two different ways we really think about that. One tip I have for any bass player, whether upright or electric: if you're plucking the string, pluck through it, and when you go to pluck again, don't stop it before you play. That's something I see a lot in people who haven't been doing it as much, or maybe just aren't aware of it yet. So you can hear me stopping the note versus playing through the string.
REUBEN: Right. And that's coming from — when you're playing through the string, thinking about the ride cymbal — you're leaving your finger on the string below, usually?
BOB: I usually do, yes.
REUBEN: Exactly. Yeah, exactly.
BOB: But I'm trying to make sure I'm not stopping the note before I go to play it again. Another thing is the left hand — if we're lifting our fingers as we move from one note to the next, that's going to stop the note from ringing, obviously.
REUBEN: Right.
BOB: But the more we think about that — and you can practice this with scales, with anything you're doing — [demonstrates] versus something like that. The only difference is I'm lifting my fingers in the left hand. That's the only difference. So that's a good way to work on connecting your notes for walking. I forget my little saying — what was it? About the left hand and right hand, do you remember?
REUBEN: Hmm. No.
BOB: The left hand is intentional —
REUBEN: — and the right hand is instructional?
BOB: Actually —
REUBEN: Was that it?
BOB: — reactionary, or something like that. Basically, I think the length of the note has to do with what you do here mainly, and your right hand is reacting to that.
REUBEN: Ah, okay, I got you.
BOB: You know — for the most part, it's obviously a combination of both. But, to get real nerdy — and this is a show featuring two bass nerds — the attack is coming from your right hand, wherever you're plucking from.
REUBEN: Right.
BOB: Unless you're doing something like hammer-ons, but we're not talking about that. So the attack, the beginning of the note, is definitely coming from your right hand when you're plucking, and that has a lot to do with how you're starting the note and reattacking for the next one. But yeah — for the left hand, it really makes a difference.
---
LISTEN TO THIS: STEVE SWALLOW'S LEGATO
BOB: I wanted to play a little clip, too, since we're talking electric bass here. Let's listen to a great electric bass player connecting his notes in a jazz sense.
REUBEN: Yeah, okay.
BOB: Steve —
REUBEN: Who that be?
BOB: This is Steve Swallow, with John Scofield and Bill Stewart — I think we've actually heard this album before on a previous episode. But I wanted to highlight how Steve Swallow, who's incredible — I've got a great quote I'd love to read by him, too, if we have time — connects his notes on electric bass.
REUBEN: Come on.
BOB: He's playing real legato here, and this is at the height — more the climax — of Scofield's solo.
[CLIP: Steve Swallow, John Scofield, Bill Stewart]
REUBEN: Hmm. Dope.
BOB: Even in the upper register like that, fully legato.
REUBEN: It's almost got this connected organ vibe, you know what I mean? And he plays with a pick, too.
BOB: He plays with a pick, yeah.
REUBEN: Right.
BOB: All right, so I wanted to get some of that in our ears — but check out this quote from Steve Swallow, because he started off on upright bass.
REUBEN: Mm-hmm. There's some great recordings of him on upright — a bunch of them.
BOB: "I didn't want to leave everything behind when I switched from acoustic bass to electric bass, and my heroes were Percy Heath and Wilbur Ware. I wanted that kind of envelope to my sound, and I wanted it whether I was playing electric bass or acoustic bass. And I should add, though, that I love the legato possibilities in the electric bass. To be able to sustain a high note in the high register so easily is a gift from heaven." So there's Steve Swallow talking about legato playing on electric bass, and how that connects to the tradition of the music.
REUBEN: Wow. He has such a vision.
BOB: Right? Absolutely.
REUBEN: He was so intentional —
BOB: Of course.
REUBEN: — about his sound, and about making sure he kept the upright sensibilities he'd had for so long.
BOB: We did a great episode, another shameless plug, on Steve Swallow and his evolution from upright to electric — definitely go back and check that out.
REUBEN: Yeah, definitely. But thank you for that trio, by the way — John Scofield, Bill Stewart. It's so good.
BOB: Oh my gosh, it's so good.
REUBEN: Wow.
---
THE TAKEAWAY: 3 KEYS TO SWING
BOB: All right, so let's break it down. What's the takeaway? What are three things we can take away from this conversation about making your notes really swing when you're playing bass?
REUBEN: Be intentional — I'm going to say that.
BOB: Number one.
REUBEN: Be intentional about legato notes. Start from there.
BOB: That is your base. Hello.
REUBEN: Nice pun.
BOB: What?
REUBEN: We should have more bass puns on the Upright series.
BOB: Why not? Let that be your go-to — play legato.
REUBEN: Right, number one, I love it. Number two, perhaps: if you're playing with a drummer, connect with the attack and decay of the ride cymbal, especially when you're swinging. Even if there's no drummer present, if you imagine that intentionality and stay aware of that vibe, it's going to help you swing — even without a drummer.
BOB: Help you to swing. Okay. All right — anything else?
REUBEN: Number three: this changes your sound. If you're playing short, that's one type of vibe, and it can be a nice thing to do — but it does change your sound, so just be aware of that.
---
CLOSE
BOB: So, in close — why don't your bass lines swing? Well, now you know: it's not just the notes, not just the changes, it's the length of every single note and your intentionality — how it connects to the ride cymbal. So go put on a Ron Carter record tonight and just listen to it. There's nothing wrong with that. You'll hear it immediately, and then you'll never unhear it. All right, we're Upright Citizens.
REUBEN: Peace.
BOB: And we out.