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Work Less, Earn More is the podcast that explores how to get the most out of every hour you work. Gillian Perkins brings more than a decade of experience as an entrepreneur and educator to help you design a business that's not only flexible and fulfilling, but highly profitable. She shares strategies that are working in her own business to save time and maximize profits. She also features interviews with successful business owners on how they’re achieving big things in their businesses with crazy-little time investment. Share Work Less, Earn More with an overworked entrepreneur you know who could use a change of pace!
Gillian:
[0:00] Hey friends, welcome back to Work Less, Earn More. It is so good to have you back for another episode. Today I am joined by Rebecca Tracy of The Uncaged Life. More on her in a few minutes, but what we're gonna talk about today is all about how some courses that we've bought in the past did not give us the results that we were looking for. In fact, some of them straight up, at least at the time, felt like a waste of money. If you've ever bought a course that felt like a waste of money, then I want you to know that you're not alone and help kind of diagnose why that may have happened and how you can avoid that in the future. And if you're considering buying a course right now, then I think you'll find this conversation especially helpful for navigating that decision and figuring out if that course is actually going to help you. So let's get on into it.
Gillian:
[0:48] [intro bumper]
We became entrepreneurs because more than anything, we want freedom. We want to be in control of our own schedule, income, and life. But unfortunately, that isn't always the reality of being a business owner. I'm Gillian Perkins, and I'm on a mission to take back entrepreneurship for what it's supposed to be.
In every episode, I'll share with you how to get the most out of every hour you work so that you can work less and earn more. Let's get to it.
[/intro bumper]
Gillian:
[1:23] Hey, friends. Welcome back. So today I'm talking to Rebecca Tracy, the founder of The Uncaged Life. Rebecca and I have known each other for quite a few years, and Rebecca has been in this online business game for quite some time. She'll tell you more about that in just a little bit here. But first, let me just tell you a big picture of what she does. She works with coaches and online business owners to clarify their brand message, create packages that sell, and consistently get clients. She has built an incredibly engaged community of over 20,000 entrepreneurs, and she is very well known for her practical, no-fluck approach to building a business that actually supports the life you want. And that is a big thing that Becca and I both have in common. We are both very practical and no-nonsense. We like to cut to the chase and focus on very practical, actionable strategies. So I always love talking to Becca. Welcome to Work Less, Earn More, Becca. It's so good to have you here today.
Rebecca:
[2:19] Yeah, thank you. We're both also focused on building a business so you can have a life, which I love.
Gillian:
[2:24] Yes, right? We're not about like that hustle where it's just like building a business to build the biggest business possible. Like it's a business with a different goal in mind.
Rebecca:
[2:32] Yes, yeah, thanks for having me back.
Gillian:
[2:34] Yeah, for sure. So before we get into the topic of today, could you just tell the listeners like a little bit more about your business yourself and also what you're up to right now?
Rebecca:
[2:42] Yeah, so yeah, my business is The Uncaged Life. I started it in 2011. I started it when I was on a road trip in a camper van, which is ironic because I'm currently on a road trip in a camper van. I'm in Mexico right now. I drove down here with my family and I started this in 2011, much like probably many people listening to this started their businesses, just kind of throwing spaghetti at the wall and trying to figure out how to make it all work. And I work with a lot of service businesses. I was all service businesses, but a lot of coaches. So like life coaches, health coaches, career coaches, anything with a coach attached to it or any business that has sort of a coaching type of element to it. Mostly because those folks want to be able to offer their services online. And often they're really bad at talking about what they do and selling themselves. So that's kind of where me and my team swoop in is we help people really set strong foundations in their business. So that means like really strong, profitable niche, really clear, compelling messaging, doing market research to make sure that you're actually selling something that people want to buy, which most coaches don't do that.
Rebecca:
[3:39] They just kind of jump into creating a whole business around an idea that they had. So we kind of like take people a few steps back and make sure that we go through things really methodically at the beginning to make sure that you're setting up a foundation that's actually going to work for you in the future when you go on to start doing all your marketing.
Gillian:
[3:53] Awesome. Well, thank you for breaking that down. I didn't realize you'd started back in 2011. You've been in this for so long, Megan.
Rebecca:
[4:01] I know. And I remember starting and thinking, how the hell is this ever going to be like a business? Like, you know, it was like one client at a time and thinking like calling my coach friends being like, is this working? How is this working for you? Like, how does this ever become a full time thing? And so I know what it's like to be in that place. I've been in that place, obviously, many years ago. But that's why I love working with the clients that I work with who are so new and like trying to figure out like how do I get let alone how do I get you know $100,000 a year it's like how do I get a client to pay me how to get another client to pay me it's like that sort of beginning stages that I like to work with.
Gillian:
[4:34] Yeah I'm really curious actually starting back in 2011 that was probably the year when I very first heard about online business as a thing like that was probably about the year I read The 4-Hour Workweek. I remember I read another book.
Rebecca:
[4:49] It was that era, for sure.
Gillian:
[4:50] Yeah, I read another book, I think, called The Laptop Lifestyle. Yeah. And it was like, those books were so big picture. And I feel like the authors actually had no idea what they were talking about because it was so new.
Rebecca:
[5:00] I say this all the time. And even my business is called The Uncaged Life. And I'm still very... Weary that it's not coming across as me being like, just live this lifestyle without actually teaching you how to have a business. Because that's what it was back then. It was literally then 2011 to kind of like 2016, I feel it was like the heyday of like the lifestyle business.
Gillian:
[5:21] And when there was no specific direction, like that was why I ended up starting the business that I did. Like come 27, like I started trying to start my online business in about 2016.
Gillian:
[5:33] 2017 I've started figuring you know more things out started making a little bit of money with it and then in 2018 it was when my business actually like blew up and that was the year when I was like oh my goodness I need to like tell people what actually helped what actually worked you know took me so long to figure this out so back in 2011 like how did you figure it out and did you have I don't know not a blueprint after you didn't have a blueprint but who were you emulating how did you even figure that out in 2011?
Rebecca:
[5:59] Yeah, there definitely was not as many courses, as many Facebook groups, as many communities as exist now. I took B-School. I took that was like also the era of B-School.
Gillian:
[6:10] I didn't actually realize it was there. It existed yet in 2011.
Rebecca:
[6:15] Yeah, it was like a few years in then. So it was still new, but it was kind of blowing up. Everyone was talking about it. I tried a lot of things. Let's just put it that way. So I definitely started not niched. I started doing a couple different things, kind of trying to see which one worked. You know, you can only do that for so long until you start to realize like, this isn't working. Okay, maybe I'm going to go on one of these things. And maybe, right. So you kind of, you do figure those things out for yourself. You know, you probably know that.
Gillian:
[6:39] Oh, for sure.
Rebecca:
[6:39] And so there's a lot of that, just like testing out different things, testing out different niches, testing out different offers. I hustled a lot. So I actually found, I just saw a Facebook post pop up, you know how it shows your like memories and it was something from 2012 I think so it was like the first year of my business and it was like my goal is to work only I don't know 25 hours this week or something because like I'd never had a full-time 40-hour a week job and I'm sure that I had been working like over 50 hours a week then because I was in full hustle mode and I also didn't know what I was doing I didn't have a blueprint so I was like doing everything trying to figure out what was going to work which did me well because it you know eventually figured it out probably in And the second year, things started to turn around and work really well for me. But I don't want people to have to hustle that way. Nobody should be working 60 hours a week when you're starting your business.
Gillian:
[7:26] For sure. In those first like just one or two years of your business, what were your first offers?
Rebecca:
[7:32] Oh, my gosh. So I had one on one coaching.
Rebecca:
[7:35] And I would say then the niche was sort of there's like three parts to my niche. So I was working with people who were kind of like me. So health coaches and life coaches, I had just come out of those two trainings. And so I was working with coaches who were kind of trying to figure out their business. I wasn't teaching them marketing, but I was kind of doing more of the like business ideation, trying to help them get really clear on like what they wanted to do, what they didn't want to do, what felt aligned. And I was working with people who didn't know what they wanted to do with their life and wanted to do something more fun, but didn't really know what that was. And then I don't, I can't even tell you what the third one was, but I remember there was three. So I had different offers for them, but mostly I had one-on-one coaching. I had a small group program that I ran. I had a mastermind where people would just, or not a mastermind, a membership, a mastermind membership where people would pay and just come every week and we do coaching calls. I tried to create an online course that I thought was going to sell. I followed some, I bought something about how to like do a presale and sell your course before you even make it. And I got all excited about it and one person bought. And so luckily I was smart and I scrapped that course idea. And now I look back now and I'm like, that was such a bad idea. No one was going to buy that.
Rebecca:
[8:42] So I literally did every offer you can think of. I had out there trying to just see kind of what landed and what people were interested in. And it helped me, it did help me figure things out sooner because I did so many things at once, but I don't recommend it. I was also living in a van at the time with really bad Wi-Fi. We were just talking about Starlink, but we I had to go park outside McDonald's parking lots because they it was known that they had free Wi-Fi. It was the only place. It wasn't like you could just go to like any coffee shop and get Wi-Fi.
Rebecca:
[9:07] And so I did so many coaching calls in McDonald's parking lots in my van.
Gillian:
[9:12] I'm really impressed by how like full suite you were from the beginning in terms of like your product offering.
Rebecca:
[9:18] And now I have one thing that I sell. And I'm like, I think everyone should only sell one thing is part of my motto now. So I went totally the other direction.
Gillian:
[9:25] I too started with a lot of offers, but I didn't like span as many different types of offers as it sounds like you spanned at the very start.
Rebecca:
[9:33] Yeah, I didn't know.
Gillian:
[9:34] Especially like in 2011. Love it. I keep going back to that.
Rebecca:
[9:37] People say a membership's good. Let's do it. I know. And I had like I got some traction quickly. I did. I remember doing an interview series on my blog where I interviewed a bunch of people and they shared it with their audiences, which is now still a strategy, like the number one strategy that I recommend. I didn't even know I was doing it then, but they got me exposure at the beginning. And so I kind of built a little community relatively quickly. And so I did have people to sell to. It wasn't like I was just putting offers out there to like five people. I was going to say on Instagram, we didn't even have Instagram then, you know, five people on my email list. Like I built up my list still small, but like relatively quickly because of that. So people were buying these offers other than the online course.
Gillian:
[10:14] Well, that's good.
Rebecca:
[10:15] But you know, they were super cheap. They were super small. They were just me really testing things out.
Gillian:
[10:19] Yeah. I mean, that was one of my biggest mistakes when I was starting was like putting offers out to nobody. Like I made something. It's great. Why is nobody buying it?
Rebecca:
[10:28] Why is no one buying it? I know.
Gillian:
[10:30] I know. Nobody knew it existed.
Rebecca:
[10:32] Yeah, exactly. No one knows you exist yet.
Gillian:
[10:35] Well, I think this was a really good intro to what I wanted to talk to you about today, which was I heard you on your podcast a couple months ago talking about this idea of why a marketing course you bought didn't help your business. And I thought this was a great conversation to have because I both have had that experience myself where I bought courses, especially marketing courses that didn't end up giving me the results I was looking for. And then I've also seen people in my audience buying courses either from me or from somebody else. But even from me, you know, a course that I know is legitimately a good course and not getting the results they are hoping for. So I thought this would be a great discussion to have to help people think through and figure out before they buy a course whether or not it's actually going to help them. So tell me a little bit about, tell the audience a little bit about this marketing course that you bought that didn't help you. Was it one specific course or did this happen multiple times?
Rebecca:
[11:30] I would say it happened multiple times and it was and so I won't name any courses, but there was a couple investments that I made at the beginning that just didn't deliver on the promises of their marketing. Right. And like the reason was that I wasn't niched. I didn't know even who I was trying to talk to. I was super vague in what I was talking about, even though I had these three niches. It was like when I would zoom out and then try to talk to all of them, it's like the message totally got lost. And so I was learning strategies. I was learning like how to build an email list and how to write copy and trying to like do these things, not even like super advanced marketing, just like, you know, the things people generally start with. But I didn't have the clarity or the specificity in who I was talking to. And so it's like I wrote copy, but it wasn't really speaking to anyone. It wasn't great. And I was like doing the things. I set up an email list and I was like doing
Rebecca:
[12:18] the things to build an email list. And, you know, the interview series that I did came a little bit later. And so that was a smart thing on my part. And I had Niche Jam when I did those interviews.
Rebecca:
[12:28] But, you know, at the beginning, I just felt like I was like learning these things. And it was like, and now go and pitch yourself over here. And I was like, pitch what? Like, I don't even like it'd be like coming to your podcast and being like, can I come on and talk about something? What do you want to talk about? I don't know. Like it's just it wasn't compelling. It wasn't clear enough. And I see that happen so much with our students that come to our program. We have a question on our application, which is what other courses have you taken to get here? And sometimes people have like 15 courses listed and coaches they've hired and things that they've done. And they're all like legit. I'm like, I know some of these programs. They're really good. Some of them I've never heard of. Some of them are probably crap. Right. There's probably a mix. And they're still they're still like, I'm not making any money. I don't have I've never had a paying client. and so it's like a phenomenon that I see happening and so I'm happy that we're talking about it.
Gillian:
[13:17] Yeah I mean that's like the real proof there that this is happening to other
Gillian:
[13:20] people when you see and I've seen that too. I don't think we have a question that's quite as clear but sometimes we ask our students you know what other courses have you taken and sometimes I'm surprised to see that they've taken half a dozen other courses but just like you said like that I know are good or I know some of them are good at least and they're still at square like zero basically yeah and so you probably have another question on that survey that asks them something like what does your business do or who do you help or something like that yes so you probably see a mismatch sometimes of like they've taken 10 other courses yeah they don't even have a clear answer to that one question they're not
Rebecca:
[13:55] Even sure who they're trying to sell to yet yeah definitely and I also think that a lot of people and I for sure guilty of doing this at the beginning of my business I'm much better now But I think a lot of people have too high expectations for things that they take, especially at the beginning where they'll sign up for something and think like, this is going to make me $100,000 in my business in three months. This is going to basically be the thing that makes my business successful. And maybe it is if you're at the exact right stage where that program can help you. But I think a lot of the time, especially at the beginning, it's like you see all this shiny marketing and you invest and you're like, oh, my God, okay. And you don't really vet the program well enough to really see like, is this helping me at the stage that I'm actually at with the things that I need help with? And I think it's not your fault because you don't know, right? You're new and you're like, I need a business. This says it's going to give me a business. Great, I'll do it. Right. It's like you can't be discerning because you just often don't know what you need at the beginning. But I think that's a big problem, too, because like we've both said, a lot of the courses that people are buying are still good courses. Yeah. And people are still walking away without the results that they thought that they would get.
Gillian:
[14:58] Now while so many of these courses that i see other people taking i do think are great something that i think is not that great is the way that a lot of them are sold in that as you kind of called out there oftentimes they're kind of sold as like learn this one trick this one strategy and you'll have a business kind of sold as like the one secret ingredient that they need which i understand of course you know why they're being sold that way Learn funnels,
Rebecca:
[15:26] Learn Facebook ads. Yeah, right.
Gillian:
[15:27] I know I bought a course, and I've had this experience too, several times where I bought a course that I thought was going to be the thing that finally made the difference and it ended up not really helping me at all. And while I don't want to call any courses out, I do think it might be helpful to talk about some of these specific topics.
Rebecca:
[15:44] Yeah.
Gillian:
[15:44] So I'll call out two. One was a course that I bought about grow your email list. And of course, the promise behind this course was something along the lines of An email list is basically a list of hot leads. And so if you build your email list, then you have like buyers on demand. You basically have like a cash printing machine, basically, right? So just build your email list and then you'll be able to easily sell your product and, you know, have consistent income. And so what happened with that course for me, this was like one of the earliest courses I bought. So it was in the earlier days of online marketing. I would, in that case, kind of blame the course in that the course was a bit too much of like a hodgepodge of strategies for growing your email list rather than a cohesive, like beginning to end system or strategy. But even if it had been that, I don't know how much it would have helped me because it was, you know, a single strategy. when I didn't have an overall like working business model or a good strategy for my business overall. And that's probably the biggest problem. And I love that you called out something different than I was thinking of. You know, you're pointing out a lot of people, they're just kind of missing like the foundations for their business. They haven't niched down. They haven't clarified like a value proposition. And so everything that they, every new strategy that they try, every new course that they buy to learn a new strategy, there's kind of nothing to apply it to.
Gillian:
[17:10] I totally see that having experienced that myself. And that has been a big reason why I haven't gotten results from some courses. But it wasn't the main thing I was focused on, which was they were just in the wrong order. And I was more focused on the fact that I didn't have like a big picture business strategy. So I was just like doing this one random thing when I didn't have like a beginning and an ending to my sales funnel. I was just doing something like random in the middle of a sale.
Rebecca:
[17:33] Yeah, so you don't even know what you're selling, but you have to go again to build a list. Yes, exactly.
Gillian:
[17:37] Which I think like you can do that. You know, like you could build a list before you have something to sell, but you're not going to make money until you have something to sell. And it's really hard to build a list if you don't also have a visibility strategy. Right. Which I didn't have. Yeah. And then another course that I bought where I ran into a similar issue was a course about webinars. OK, so like how to create a webinar that sells really effectively. And again, the messaging behind this course was like, learn this one skill and like, you'll never have to worry about money again, practically.
Rebecca:
[18:11] That's the promise behind all of them, isn't it?
Gillian:
[18:13] Yeah, just learn how to sell on webinars. And then whenever you want to create a new product, you can create a new product and just sell it so easily, which, you know, sounds amazing. So I signed up for that course. That course was better. Still wasn't like one of my favorite courses I've ever bought or anything, but it was more cohesive, I guess. and complete, you know, from start to finish. But it, again, was like so much missing that I need visibility and I need to have something to sell. And so I remember taking that course and just being like, so what should I sell? I don't know. And wait, who's going to come to this webinar? I did a module about that, but I did it so much more than a module about how to get people.
Rebecca:
[18:50] I know. Yeah, exactly. I think that's the thing is like a lot of these courses cover it where there'll be like, OK, a niching module. And then it's right on to the next thing. And it's like it takes more than a worksheet to like really figure out what the business is and what the niche is. And I always like the analogy of like, it's like if you're building a house and you start buying curtains and throw pillows and like wallpaper and all the cute things for the inside before you even have a foundation. And so then you've got a pile of like beautiful things and like a pile of rubble to put it on, basically. It's like nowhere to put the things. And I think it's it's fun to learn those strategies because it sounds like a direct path, right? It's like webinars are the way to sell. So I'm going to learn webinars and therefore I'm going to sell things like it sounds more linear than like, especially what I teach with the foundations. It's like, it's not as sexy, you know, it's not as like enticing, I think, for people to be like, oh, you want me to what?
Gillian:
[19:41] Yeah, that is that is the big challenge, isn't it? Okay, can I get really real with you about something for a minute here? I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks you should be able to learn how to grow your business without spending thousands of dollars on bloated training. Seriously, there's no reason it needs to be as expensive as a lot of online courses are. That's why I don't offer really pricey coaching. I want to teach real people how to build really profitable businesses at a price that actually makes sense. So I asked myself, how can I connect with you in a really personal way, teach you everything you need to know to grow your business and help you actually do it? And how can I guarantee this won't cost an arm and a leg? Asking myself those questions is how I came up with the idea for Startup Society, the program I wish had existed when I was struggling to get my online business off the ground. So if you're a freelancer, a coach or a course creator, and you want my guidance, plus the support of my own team to build your business, then Startup Society is for you. Just head to StartupSociety.com to learn more and find out when enrollment next opens. I can't wait to meet you, show you the ropes and guide you to start growing your business a whole lot faster. StartupSociety.com. Building an online business doesn't have to be so complicated.
Gillian:
[21:06] Do you have any specific examples of courses you bought? Again, not like the name of the course, but the topic. Just to give some examples of like why they didn't help you or how they didn't help you.
Rebecca:
[21:16] Yeah. One was actually hiring a copywriter. So it wasn't a course, but I invested in a copywriter. It was $1,000. It was like a VIP day where they wrote like five of my pages and outlined my offers and stuff. And I remember thinking, great, this is just going to like take this like loose idea of a niche that I have in my head and like turn it into a business. I was kind of equating it with like developing a whole business strategy for me, which is not the job of a copywriter. But I didn't know that. And, you know, to be fair, she didn't vet me either. And it's this is, I guess, a bigger question of like whose job is it to make sure that the thing is the right thing. But so we had a VIP day and she was like, what are your offers? And I was like, I don't know. And then she just kind of made a few up for me. And I was like, OK, great. I have my offers. And I had the copy and it was fun to read. But then, you know, two months and three months later, I had to completely change all of it because as I was getting a bit more experience coaching people and as I was starting to kind of figure out my niche and whittle it down a little bit more, I was like, oh, this copy doesn't make sense. So then I was going in and like doing a hack job of editing it and trying to change things. And so like that wonderful thousand dollars I spent ended up. You know, it was great because it got me started and I was able to put it on my website and feel good about it. But like, it didn't really make me any money or get me any clients at the end of the day.
Gillian:
[22:31] But it was a stepping stone, you know, like.
Rebecca:
[22:34] It's a stepping stone. I think, yeah, honestly, I think every investment you can pull something from, even if the course is completely unrelated to what you want to do. It's like maybe there was like one little nugget of something they said that like gave you an idea. Or maybe you met someone in the course who became like a business bestie, like who you know there's always something you get from it sure it might not be worth the full value of what you paid for it but i think like there's nothing i've ever taken where i was like a hundred percent i got zero from that.
Gillian:
[23:01] Yeah it can be tough when you do spend maybe a couple thousand dollars on something and you're hoping that it's going to be everything they promised and then it ends up really only being like one solid takeaway a lot of the time though like i I agree. Most of the time it still ends up being worth the money because one solid takeaway it can like normally, you know, makes you that much money back at least.
Rebecca:
[23:24] It's hard to believe that when you're new and you have no money. You're not making money.
Gillian:
[23:28] It really is.
Rebecca:
[23:29] Yeah. And I also think that you can get your return on investment later. Like once you, a lot of the time my students come, they get through all things and they're like, oh my gosh, I can like go use that webinar course now because now I like know who I'm selling to and I know the language and I've built an audience and right. So then they're able to go back to the things that they bought before. So I think like, don't totally write something off if you're like, oh, that course wasn't helpful. Go back to it later when you're at the right stage for it.
Gillian:
[23:53] Yeah. So you're kind of like investing. I don't recommend buying courses for that reason. I'd like to save them for later.
Rebecca:
[23:59] No, no, no. But if you did buy something and then you're like, oh, this sucked. Be like, well, maybe it helps you figure out what you need also, right? It's like a webinar strategy. Like, why didn't this strategy work? And I think that's a good thing to ask the course providers too, or the coach or whoever it is that you're working with. It's like, why didn't this work for me? Or even before you buy a course, like, what would I need in place to get the best results from this program? I love when my students ask me that because I'm so clear and I can tell them exactly what they need and what they don't need, what might be helpful, you know, what doesn't matter. And I think that every time you invest in someone, they should be able to tell you those things. They shouldn't just be like, it'll help you. Don't worry about it. Which is the response I've gotten sometimes when I've kind of pushed and asked questions, which doesn't feel good.
Gillian:
[24:38] Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And something I wanted to talk about today, kind of to conclude this topic, not that I want to get to the end yet, but is like, what are some things that people should consider or do before buying a course to figure out if it's likely going to be helpful to them? And I just want to kind of like start that thought now with you're talking about, you know, reaching out and asking a question. And I actually think that can be a great thing to do before you buy a course to start learning a little bit about the responsiveness of the team that you're buying this from and the quality of their answers and how helpful they are and that sort of thing.
Rebecca:
[25:13] Yeah, yeah, I agree. I think just listening, you know, if somebody has a podcast, if somebody has a YouTube channel, somebody has a blog, like just follow somebody for a little bit and see like you can really get a sense of like, do they are they just kind of blanket saying the same thing over and over again? Or do they like, is there nuance to what they're saying? Does it feel like the solution that they're offering is actually the thing that I need? And I think if you follow someone enough, you can start to get the vibe of whether that's actually the thing that you need or not versus just like jumping on the bandwagon the first time you see one of their shiny Facebook ads come across your screen. But yeah, how responsive they are. And again, asking them that specific question to like what the students who get the best results, what do they already have in place coming into this? You know, here's what I have. Am I going to fall behind? Is it going to be harder for me? Like, it doesn't mean that then you don't sign up, but at least to set the expectations. Right. Like, OK, if I'm going into a course about webinars and I don't have an offer and don't have an audience, can I still get value from it? And what am I going to need to do before I join to get the best results?
Gillian:
[26:10] Yes, for sure. We have this concept in our business of like the Olympian. So the idea here is that anybody can learn a skill, right? Like let's say an athletic skill. So anybody could learn to jump on a trampoline. But there's only a subset of people, like a very small subset of people that are going to take that skill to the Olympics and do it at that high level. What are the factors that set those people apart and make it possible for some people to get to that elite level? You know, maybe they have a certain amount of time to commit to it. Maybe they have the right body type or like the athletic potential in their body for some reason. Maybe they have the support they need. Maybe they have the money that they need, right, to be able to fund the training that they need to do. And so with any of your, if you are a course creator listener, with any of your products or your programs, or if you're a coach as well, you can think about like, what are the specific factors that make some of your students or your clients be really successful while others struggle to get results? And it can be great to consider that on the buying end too, both on your own, as well as asking like the course creator or the coach who
Gillian:
[27:23] What are the things, the factors that set your students who struggle to get results apart from the people who succeed or who do really well? And then you can both work on like developing those characteristics yourself or getting those assets that you might need, as well as determining like whether or not to actually take the course or hire the coach based on that.
Rebecca:
[27:43] Yeah, I love that question. I love when people ask me that question because it's just like I can give them a really honest answer. And if someone is coming in and they have a whole bunch of mindset issues or like they have these things that I know are going to hold them back in certain ways, I can tell them that and I can set their expectation because it's no good for me as a course creator if somebody comes in with super high expectations, doesn't have what they need, and then is like pissed that they didn't get results. Like I'd rather be up front and be like, here's where I think you're going to struggle. Here's the things we have in place in the program to help you. Here's kind of what I see the trajectory for you looking like versus someone else who has these other things already. And then we're all on the same page when they come in. And I think it just helps them have a better experience because they know what to expect. They can adjust those expectations.
Gillian:
[28:24] And I really do think that that is the main thing that made me dissatisfied with any course that I bought and then wasn't satisfied with or didn't get results from was I had the wrong expectations going into it. You know, they promised the sun, moon and stars. And then I just got one really solid takeaway. You know, one thing that even if it did end up being worth the money, it was not at all what I was expecting or hoping to get from it. And that is a difficult challenge for course creators or coaches to navigate is like, there's that idea of like selling what people want and then giving them what they need. And done right, I think that can work really well, but done wrong, it just leaves your customers dissatisfied and leads to like making it more challenging to grow your business because you're not getting the word of mouth marketing and whatnot. Not that you could be getting from happy customers and successful customers.
Rebecca:
[29:17] A hundred percent. I agree with that.
Gillian:
[29:19] You have any thoughts on how to navigate that, like from a place of authenticity and, you know, a way that feels really good, but also getting people the best results you possibly can, which, of course, is going to start with getting them to sign up.
Rebecca:
[29:35] Yeah, I think like consultation calls. We don't I don't do sales calls for my program, but I do applications and then I go through the application. I review their business. I usually send them back. Sometimes lengthy voice message kind of going through all my thoughts, answering their questions. We have a bit of back and forth. You could obviously replace that whole process with sales calls. But having some interaction with people before they buy, you know, if they're buying like a twenty seven dollar template, probably not. But if we're talking like a bigger, higher investment course, a coaching service, like having a conversation first, because it's like we've been saying, it's also good for you if you get people who are at the right stage. It's not good for your business. If you have a whole bunch of people coming in, they're not the right fit. They leave unhappy. They want a refund sometimes. Like that's not the place you want to be operating from. So I think doing some kind of consultation or application or something where you can both vet each other. It's not just that they're vetting you. It's like you're also making sure that you think they're at the right stage to get the most. And since we've done our application, it's so easy for me to see when someone's not the right fit and when they are and to just tell them that. And it saved us that exact scenario of having people in the program who like aren't getting results and are like pissed off by it. Right. Once in a while it happens for various reasons. But for the most part, we've way cut down on that since we changed from people just clicking a buy now button to doing an application instead.
Gillian:
[30:51] Mm-hmm. Yeah. And you're right, though. You have to have a certain price point to justify that or make it work out profit margin-wise if your time or your team's time has a price on it. Totally. And so if you are selling a $27 product, then it's not going to be worth your time to be vetting each and every person. No. But it can be really helpful at those higher price points. So let's come back now to that question of like, what are some things that you would recommend people consider before buying a course to figure out if that course is actually going to help them? You've shared some great thoughts, Becca, about kind of like processes to go through of, you know, reaching out and asking questions, filling out an application
Gillian:
[31:32] if that's a possibility, those sorts of things. But what about even aside from interacting with the course creator at all how could somebody kind of decide if a course is like maybe going to help them or like what topic they should take a course on or what coach they should hire that sort of thing
Rebecca:
[31:48] Yeah so my business works with very new businesses like I said and so it's always hard because I try to put myself in that mindset where I'm like you sometimes you just don't know what you don't know so it's tricky because you know more established businesses I'm sure for you same as for me it's really easy to look and be like what's not working right now. Okay, the sales are fine. The marketing is fine. Our funnel is not.
Gillian:
[32:08] Digest the sales funnel. Like here's the hole in it. Yeah.
Rebecca:
[32:10] Right. So we can really see the full picture. I think when you're newer, you just don't know. You know what the thought that just crossed my mind was like, I wonder how well ChatGPT could like analyze that for you. I would be very curious to like start using, you know, take it with a grain of salt. And I haven't vetted this because I haven't actually tried this for this specific thing. But like I'm using it for all kinds of different conundrums in my life. And I'd be really curious how well it could kind of parse out like what you actually need. Right. If you were to be like, here's kind of the different things happening in my business. Here's what I'm doing for marketing. Here's my niche. Here's what I'm doing for sales. Like I'm looking for a strategy. I'm curious what it would say. Obviously, hiring a coach who can help you do that would be great. But again, it's like then we're back to the question of how do we know I'm hiring the right person for the right thing? But maybe that is the answer then. maybe if you're not actually if you can't look at your business objectively like we can so many years along and see where the holes are then maybe it is hiring someone who can like who that is their specialty they're able to really kind of look at everything and help you figure out this is a visibility issue or this is a clarity issue or this is a marketing issue this is a team issue whatever yeah.
Gillian:
[33:15] I'd also just say that like if you don't know what the problem is, I think that that is telling and that there's probably going to be a pretty like foundational challenge that you need to work on. And so really try to avoid. I know it can be hard to tell, which is why Becca and I both have made like this mistake multiple times of buy a course that was not what we needed. But try to avoid going for like a single tactic or strategy yes especially like a marketing tactic or strategy if right now you're not making any money with your business like really try to go back to square one and figure out like well do I have a solid offer do I have like a basic business model and those just foundational kind of like business planning elements almost yeah and maybe you need to as much as it like doesn't sound like a sexy course topic and it doesn't sound like it's going to make you a million
Gillian:
[34:13] That might be the course or the coach that you need right now yeah and then once you have those pieces then you'll know when you have them and then you can move on and I would kind of go about this from like analyzing a funnel a sales funnel perspective of like start at the top of the funnel like well you need some visibility and then how are you going to warm that visibility up like how are you going to warm those people those leads up and then how are you going to sell them and what are you going to sell to them but I'm not saying you necessarily have to start from the top to the bottom because it can be better you know to have that clear offer first before you're trying to get the lead but thinking about that complete system and if you are considering taking a course you know webinar strategy thinking about like well where in my sales funnel or where in my business model would that actually fit and do i have the thing that comes before that and the thing that comes after that
Rebecca:
[35:01] Yeah, I like that. I think, too, if you're if you're newish and you're not sure if it's a foundation's clarity problem, something that I've had my students do before is to go off to their networks. So that might just literally mean like posting on their personal Facebook page or their personal Instagram, like something like that. Asking people that they know in their lives, what is it that my business does? What do you think my business does? What do you think I do if you had to describe it and see what their answers are? because sometimes and mind you, you know, you could I would send them your website if they're like, I don't know, I haven't really seen your business, right? Send them your website. But it's so good to have other people who like kind of know us and know what we're doing. Tell us whether they actually get it. Even they don't have to be your ideal clients to get it, right? Ideally, we want people to get it, even if they're not your ideal clients, because they can be referral sources. But that can be a good just quick, easy little litmus test for like, is it even clear what I'm selling? Do people even know like what I'm doing? And because you could be posting all day on social media and the answers could be like your posts are nice but like i don't really exactly know like who would pay you money like or what for like if that part's not.
Gillian:
[36:04] Clear what it can be
Rebecca:
[36:05] Really eye-opening it can be scary but it can be really eye-opening to just get a sense of like how clear am i to the people kind of in my orbit.
Gillian:
[36:11] So i love that idea i feel like i'm hearing the thought that somebody might have in response to that is like if i posted that i don't think anybody would answer and i think that that indicates something individually that would indicate like yeah people don't understand what you're doing and maybe there's nobody there so then maybe you need to take a step like even kind of earlier totally and well first of all I guess who you ask is going to depend on where you're at in the state if you have a small audience yeah if you have a small email list doing exactly what you said Becca would be great you know ask but ask your small audience hey try to you know try to tell me what I do or could you help me out tell me if you understand what I'm doing that sort of saying you don't then I mean maybe if you've told your family about your business idea then ask them But also maybe you just need to start working on trying to advertise your business. Like maybe the idea is clear, but you just have zero visibility. So like which thing are you missing?
Rebecca:
[37:05] Yeah, if you don't have the visibility, like there's endless groups and forums these days where you can go and find people. Right. Like I have a Facebook group that has 20,000 people in it. Go post in there and be like, here's my website. Would love to know if you know what my offer is and who it's for. Like, is this clear, basically? Right. You don't need a business expert to tell you if something is clear. You need real people to tell you if something is clear. So, you know, there's, I'd say there's still ways you can do that, even if you don't have a list or if you don't want to go to like your dad and be like, you know, maybe your family's going to be like, of course, it's great. You want to go to people who can be like objective.
Gillian:
[37:41] Yeah. And we do the same thing in Startup Society, which is the membership program that I run. I totally agree that a lot of the time just having like that outside perspective sometimes people hire me to coach them you know where they're working in one of our coaching programs or something and they want Gillian to tell them whether their business idea is good or if their marketing message is clear what and I'm like you don't need me to do it we I want to just like ask the audience basically what do you guys think like you understand what she does right yeah would you want this like does it resonate does it make sense those sorts of questions And yeah, not only do you not need an expert opinion, but I'm not your target client. So I don't really know if this is something that people want. We have to go find those people now and ask them, is this something you would want? Why? Why not?
Rebecca:
[38:29] 100%. Yes.
Gillian:
[38:32] So you shared one example earlier of purchase that you made. You said it was like hiring a copywriter that turned out to not be the right move. Just to wrap this up, do you have any other examples that could maybe bring this home of another course that you bought that didn't quite land and why it didn't land?
Rebecca:
[38:49] Yeah, I there was another one. I can't remember even what it was marketed as. I think it was sort of a more general like build your business course. So it was almost the opposite of what we've been talking about so it wasn't like here's a single strategy it was like help you build a business and I remember getting in and there were some one-on-one calls included with it was kind of a hybrid like group and one-on-one and again I remember being the calls and having this moment where I was like, I don't even want to know what I'm selling. And so they're learning all these strategies. And it was so general that it was like, build a website, build an email list, do some marketing, do a social media ads. Like it was just kind of a blanket, like do everything. And I remember getting stuck in like the first or second module because I was like, I remember being on with the coach and we were trying to like tweak, I don't know, an about page or a program, something we were trying to tweak something. And I remember just having that moment of clarity where I was like this doesn't make sense this is not a helpful course because I'm not I'm not in the right stage for this so it was like too general it didn't have a clear promise it was just sort of like build your business which was what I needed but the things that they were teaching were not appropriate for like the piece of the puzzle that I actually needed yes.
Gillian:
[39:59] It sounds like there wasn't enough emphasis on just step one and you were at step
Rebecca:
[40:04] Like the steps exactly yeah it was I was at step one and they were sort of like steps four or five and six which were great steps but they were super generic they weren't like nuanced for the type of business that you had it was like you know we're going to teach everyone how to build your website we teach everyone how to write your copy we're going to teach everyone how to build your email list we're going to teach everyone how to I can't remember if a webinar was in there there's like too many things which is so overwhelming if you're new also because then you're like oh my god I have to do all this to do all these things yes for sure.
Gillian:
[40:32] Well, Becca, thanks so much for coming on and chatting about this today. I think it's an important, this sounds cliche, but like an important topic to bring awareness to, right? It's an important thing to talk about and like for people to know that they're not alone in, you know, if you've messed up, if you want to even say it that way, and bought a course that didn't end up being worth money or didn't end up helping you, wasn't quite what you were expecting or hoping for. You're totally not alone. I've made that mistake. Becca's made that mistake. Most people who buy courses have made that mistake, but there are still things you can learn from it. And if nothing else, you can make a smarter buying decision next time. And kind of my biggest takeaway here is make sure that you're buying the right course for the right stage of business that you're at. And if you are at the very beginning, don't try to like jump ahead to something that sounds like cool and exciting and like it's an advanced strategy that's going to help you so much. Try to find the course that's really going to help you in that beginning stage that you're at, even if it's not going to get you to your ultimate dreams, like in one fell swoop.
Rebecca:
[41:33] Yeah. And it doesn't mean your business is not going to work or that you suck or that your business idea sucks if the course that you took didn't work. It just means it probably wasn't the right course for the right stage. Because I see that I see people wanting to quit a lot because they're like, well, I tried. Right. It doesn't mean your business can't work. And so don't be afraid to get the help you need and invest again, even though it's scary, because you just
Rebecca:
[41:55] need something at the right stage.
Gillian:
[41:56] That's a great point. To wrap this up, Becca, can you tell the listeners where they can find more about you and about The Uncaged Life itself and how it might be able to help them?
Rebecca:
[42:06] Yeah, we're at The Uncaged Life on Instagram at The Uncaged Life. We have a Facebook group called Uncaged Lifers, which is mostly service-based businesses and great for the sort of thing we've been talking about, like newbie stages, market research. Is this clear? If you need an audience to tell you if something's clear or what's not clear, everyone is welcome to join and post in there. It's totally free. Those are the main places.
Gillian:
[42:28] Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Becca, for sharing your time and your expertise today.
Rebecca:
[42:32] Thanks, Gillian.
Gillian:
[42:33] [outro bumper] Okay, friends. So that wraps up my conversation with Becca. I hope you really enjoyed that. I wanted to pop in here for just a minute to chat with you about Startup Society. Now, Startup Society is actually closed right now. We're not accepting new members, but I could not talk about it because it is just the perfect fit for what Becca and I were talking about in this episode, first of all, if you are looking for a community of people who can give you that feedback on your business idea, on your website, all of that, Startup Society is so perfect for that. You know, Becca's community is incredible and it's huge over on Facebook, 20,000 people.
Gillian:
[43:14] And Startup Society is so much smaller. But sometimes I think that can be more helpful to have just a few hundred people who get to know you and know your business and you can build relationships with and build some trust with. So if you're looking to find really a tribe to build your business with and to support you as you are embarking on this journey, then Startup Society is a great fit for that. The other reason I wanted to bring up Startup Society was Rebecca and I in this episode, you know, we were talking about how a lot of the time the reason courses don't land or don't get your results is because they are these kind of random strategies that are not the right strategies for this stage you're at with your business. And that really is the problem that we work on solving in the startup society is making sure that you have a complete system for building your business from start to finish. We start at square one and we just build incrementally from there. Step one, step two, step three. It's all very sequential, very well sequenced and very strategic.
Gillian:
[44:15] So if you are looking for some training for those foundational parts of figuring out what your business should do, who to help working on your messaging for your business, as well as really practical guidance on things like setting up your website and building your email list and creating an offer and then launching that offer to your audience, all those foundational pieces of building a money-making business,
Gillian:
[44:38] then Startup Society will be exactly what you're looking for. Now, like I said, at this moment, Startup Society is not open for enrollment, but if it sounds like what you're looking for, then I would encourage you to go to StartupSociety.com, read more about the program, and put your name on the wait list if you are interested in joining in the future, because we will be having an enrollment period in a couple of months here. And if you put your name on the wait list, then you can find out when that is and get the opportunity to join. All right, well, that is all for this episode. Thank you so much for listening. I'll be back again with another one. Until then, stay focused, and here's to your success.
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