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Bob Werderich, a professional pilot and executive vice president of Spartan Flight Operations, shares his inspiring journey into aviation, emphasizing the importance of personal connections in flight training. He discusses how his early experiences with his father, a pilot for North Central Airlines, shaped his love for flying, leading him to a career he never initially intended to pursue. As he reflects on his transition from sports to aviation, Bob highlights the significance of adapting to challenges and the value of teaching in a personalized manner. The conversation delves into the evolution of his flight school, Illinois Aviation Academy, and its recent acquisition by Spartan, which has allowed for growth and innovation while maintaining a commitment to quality education. Ultimately, Bob's passion for aviation and dedication to fostering a supportive environment for students shines through, making a compelling case for why learning in challenging conditions can better prepare aspiring pilots for their future careers.
Takeaways:
Pilot to Pilot is the podcast for anyone who flies — or dreams about it. Host Justin Siems sits down with airline captains, bush pilots, CFIs, and everyone in between for honest conversations about the path to the cockpit, the grind of the career, and the love of flying that keeps us coming back. Whether you're a student pilot chasing your first solo or a captain with 20,000 hours, there's a seat for you here. New episodes weekly.
My name is Bob Wardorek.
I'm a professional pilot and
executive vice president of Spartan
Flight Operations.
Bob, what's going on?
Welcome to the Pilot to Pilot podcast.
Good morning.
Yeah, it's good to have you on.
I'm excited as a person who
used to live in Chicago and to talk
more about Chicago aviation
and flight school.
It's going to be a good time.
But first I want to touch on
your story a little bit.
I want to talk about kind of
how you got to where you are now,
how it all started.
So why aviation?
What was the original
inspiration for you to even start
flying?
Wow, that's a great story.
So true.
My father, George Werderick,
used to fly for a company called
North Central Airlines.
He flew the Convair 580 and so
that's a big old turbo prop back
in the day, super overpowered machine.
And anyway, I would r ride my
big wheel up and down the street
and had the propellers going
around and around.
So in a way, I've been flying
a big wheel and airplanes my whole
life.
My father went on and ended up
working with Republic, which ended
up being Northwest and Delta
at the very end.
So I've always been around aviation.
Didn't actually intend to be a
pilot or professional pilot.
It kind of was just through a
life events, if you will.
I went to college to be a
school teacher.
So I have a degree in
education, biology and earth science.
And then while I was going to
school, I played sports, I played
football and I wrestled in college.
But at the same time kind of
flying for fun, it was more of a
recreation, so I was doing
that on the side.
Then when I got to about my
junior year, I got injured pretty
bad in football and kind of
was that reassessment of life, you
know, what are you going to do
with your life?
How much you bench press?
Doesn't really matter.
No.
So if you can run a 4440, no
one really cares about that anymore.
Yeah, no, not the airlines.
Don't care about your speed?
No, no, not at all.
So, yeah.
So what ended up happening
was, is that I assessed in life what
did I really like to do.
And I like teaching, I like flying.
So I got a lot more aggressive
and got my instrument rating, got
my commercial and I just got
my commercial.
Then my flight instructor
invited me one day.
He says, hey, Bo.
Hey, you're in the education
program at your college?
I said, yep.
He says, well, I teach a
ground school down the street at
a community college.
Would you like to come and
help out And I said, sure, I'm happy
to help out.
So, true story.
So I show up to the community
college and to assist him in teaching
the class, and he never showed up.
So as a.
As a commercial pilot,
recently minted commercial pilot,
I showed up to class and I'm
like, hi, everybody, I'm Bob.
Like, Bob Garen's not here.
You're teaching the class.
So I had to teach cross
countries to a crowd school class.
So I immediately realized I
need to quickly get a ground instructor
certification and started
working on my cfi.
So you could say I was thrust
into the flight instructing business
and professional flying in
1993, through lots of life events,
if you will.
And then things grew from
there as.
So I played sports as well and
I had to make the decision eventually.
Well, the decision was made
for me.
I took it up to college and
quickly realized that I wasn't going
to be a professional athlete
and kind of looked elsewhere to see
what I could do.
But when your identity isn't
something so strong and like, you
know, you're kind of so
focused on sports or whether it's
acting or whether it's just
anything else that you're passionate
about, and you got to make a
pivot in your life, this could be
someone that's 30 years old,
that's an engineer, and they're going
to be thinking about becoming
a pilot.
But their identity for so long
has been something else.
Was it hard for you to make
the change in your life, or was it
easy because aviation was
already something you were used to
and something that you were
kind of intrigued by?
Well, obviously, anybody
that's in a pilot that is a pilot
will be biased that we have
the best office on the planet.
Right?
Tell me I'm wrong.
So there's nothing more, we'll
say it, more invigorating than flying
an airplane, than further like
successfully flying an airplane from
point A to point B.
There's just nothing better.
There's a great feeling.
So that's already been
embedded in me.
But, you know, in all honesty,
those are pretty catastrophic.
That injury that I sustained
playing football, it, you know, that
ended football pretty abruptly.
So it was a catastrophic
change in that life decision at that
moment of what are you going
to do?
And that's.
And that's how that catalyst
helped me make that pivot point.
So it was unfortunately kind
of easy for me to make that call.
Yeah, well, it's a good thing
that you had something that you did
love to do.
Right.
It's a good thing that you
Know, following your dad's footsteps
or just seeing what he was doing.
And speaking on that as
someone whose dad and whose grandpa
was in aviation, was aviation
in your life?
Like, was it easily accessible?
Was it constant trips to small
airports to go see small airplanes?
Or is it something that you
kind of found your own love of?
That's another.
Like, once again, that's a
neat story because, yeah, we were
always flying.
I mean, my mother lived in
Lansing, Michigan.
I mean, these are going back
to the old days, and dad was a junior
first officer, and we'd get on
the airplane and I mean, I've flown
multiple times on the Convair
and back then even in the DC9 when
he flew that, you know, they'd
have the door open.
I've been in.
I've done more Christmases on
a jet than not when I was younger.
So he used to open up the door
and us kids would walk up to the
cockpit, look for Santa Claus
on the radar.
I think it's there.
I think that's him.
And all the kids would run
back and forth.
You know, it was like,
unfortunately, we can't do that anymore,
as, you know.
But, you know, that was.
Those were neat stories where
we would travel the Lansing to see
my mother's parents and fly
back and forth.
And there were days where dad
would take off on a Lansing and there
was a Fourth of July parade,
and all of a sudden, everybody's
got the parades going by and
there goes this CONVICT probably
like 600ft above the ground.
I mean, once again, you know,
it's just stuff like he can't do
anymore, but he did it.
I feel like there's a lot of
stories of that generation where
it's prefaced with, well, you
can't do this anymore.
But it was awesome.
It was.
Yeah.
I mean, so it's stuff like
that, you know, it just.
That was a neat era.
Obviously, things have gotten
more professional, safer.
I'm not saying they weren't profess.
Those were the.
In my opinion, that era where
they came through that, you know,
with the development from the
ADF to the.
To the gps, that group of
pilots are just some of the best
that's ever walked.
I call them the old lions.
And they come by every once in
a while.
And those old lions, they can
tell stories, but they did it.
They can walk the walk and
talk the talk.
Yeah.
I mean, yeah, they thinking now.
I always think about what my
grandpa would think about me being
a pilot now.
He flew in World War II.
He flew for capital.
He flew for United.
But thinking now about how I'm
just like a child of the magenta
line, essentially, where it's
like, gps, direct enter, line select,
bring it up.
And in his mind, he's probably
like, that's not real flying at all.
Like, what are you doing?
He's like, you think that was scary?
Yeah.
So I'm sure if I ever told him
a story, he'd be like, that's it.
Like, what?
That's nothing.
That happened every day.
That's a Tuesday.
I'm scared about that line.
It could be moving this way.
I know.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So just the.
Like, in my mind just.
I think every once in a while
about how our conversations would
go and he would just laugh at
me, like, what are you talking about?
That is nothing to worry about.
Oh, yeah, you're talking about.
Oh, keep going.
No, it's okay.
I was just going to say you
were talking about being kind of
thrust into teaching, and
obviously teaching was something
that you were passionate
about, something that you realized
that you wanted to do.
But for me, I never got my
cfi, but I did kind of start down
the process, and there was a
couple times where my.
The person that was training
me, my CFI for becoming a cfi, he
was like, hey, I'm going to
bring this private pilot student
in.
I want you to explain this to him.
And I was like, okay.
And I'd sit down, you know,
and I'd explain it how I understand
it.
And they'd look at me just
like this, and I'm like, I don't
know how else to explain it.
That's just how I understand it.
Did you have that moment when
you're teaching that as well, or
kind of talk about overcoming
those teaching techniques and figuring
out how one way isn't right
for this?
Like, how you learned it might
not be how someone else is learning
it, and you really need to
kind of step out of your comfort
zone to figure out a different
way to explain things.
Yeah.
I think for many people that
that is the.
That is the challenge for all
new educators is to learn multiple
perspectives about things.
You know, So I was blessed to
be in an aviation or not an education.
I went to Concordia University.
They have a good education
program there, and they did, you
know, so I was already trained
as a teacher to appreciate different
perspectives of learning.
And so that was.
I was aware of that going into
my flight instructing career because
they had formed that
foundation as an educator that we
need to be aware of that.
That perspectives are
different and we have to go Find
them.
There's many different ways to
arrive at the number two.
And that's a fun warmup
exercise you can do.
Give me 10 ways to come up to
the number two and to watch people
think about it like what?
But it's a great warmup and it
gets your brain going.
So things like that I learned.
So then as you go into flight
instructing and working with the
dynamics.
So when I taught in those
community colleges, it was an outreach
to many different people.
So I would have a class of say
16 and I'd have a 75 year old and
I'd have a 13 or 12 year old
in the class.
And so you can imagine the
learning styles and the differences
between that age range and
perspectives about things.
You have to learn rather
quickly that you have to find mediums
to both.
So learning techniques like to
pair people up.
So sometimes the secret sauce
is to get make partners when you
train, because then they would.
You can elect, collaborate
with the teams.
And through the teams we could
get better perspectives and arrive
at solutions.
So it was like little things
like that which have shaped my.
The way we teach at Illinois
Aviation, at Spartan.
Those kind of things have changed.
Those are big influencers to
me as to how do we arrive at the
best education possible.
Yeah.
Coming up in your career, you
mentioned airlines, you mentioned
corporate.
Talk about your path to
getting your ratings and to where
you are today.
Okay.
So I started flight
instructing and then through my father's
connection, he introduced me
to a gentleman named Bob O'Connor.
He flew for the Evinrude.
The Evinrude family.
So he had a King Air 90.
And my dad introduced me to Mr.
O'Connor and he was my dad's captain.
And so he was the guys that
Flew the Beach 18s and the DC3.
So we're talking now the, you
know, the world War, like your grandpa
guys, you know.
Yeah.
And so I got to fly with Mr.
O'Connor.
Yeah, he flew like to get perspective.
Like when the 727 was brand
new, he was closing that, you know,
he was closing his career out
when that was rolling out.
I mean, just get perspectives.
Yeah.
Isn't it like he flew before
they're, you know, FAA what, You
know, he has great stories.
But so I was blessed to.
Once again, I think I'm very
fortunate because I got to fly with
all those old guys and hear
their stories and hear how they crossed
the country and how they did things.
So I flew a King Air 90 for Mr.
O'Connor.
Mr.
O'Connor, you know, trusted me
in the right seat.
Then he lost his medical.
So then he flew on my medical
and he taught me how to fly the King
Air.
And so I was pretty fortunate
at the time.
So mind you, this is in the
early 90s and anybody that flew in
that era, that was the we'll
fly for food, legit shirts, people
were paying for interviews.
You know, people, you know,
people were paying for type ratings
to get interviews.
I mean, it was a rough era to
get a job.
So I was really lucky.
I drove, I was willing to
drive three hours to Waukesha, Wisconsin
to fly an hour flight and an
hour flight back and drive three
hours back home because that's
the way the industry was back then.
Yeah, it's crazy.
And just thinking about what
the industry is like right now, I
think it really puts it in
perspective to hear these stories
for anyone right now that's
waiting to get a job, that really
wants a job.
Just knowing that in the past,
in the 90s and the early 2000s, it
wasn't uncommon for you having
to come up with thousands of dollars
to get a 737 type rating in
exchange for a Southwest interview.
For an interview, right?
Yeah.
Just for an interview.
Not even a chance.
$500.
You want to interview at Execjet?
500 bucks.
There you go.
Was it really?
No way.
If you want an interview.
Yeah.
And what was the other ones?
There was Chicago Express.
That was one.
You had to pay for your first
officer position.
So you paid to be a first officer.
Then if you were still good to
qualify as a captain, they might
keep you on.
Otherwise.
Bye bye.
It was crazy.
You had to pay to fly the
actual airplane and actually work
for them.
Wow.
Yeah.
In the jet stream.
Jet stream 31.
Yeah, it was, it's just, it
was, it was rough.
So for me to do what I did to
get that experience in a turbine
in a large, you know, in a
cabin class, turbine powered aircraft.
I mean, no money.
I did it for the experience
like many others like myself did.
So I was just lucky to have
that, you know.
So that started me up into the corporate.
So I went from a King Air 90
to a Cheyenne to us flying that for
an auto, for a family had
automotive dealership.
I hadn't like fully broken
into the left seat position in that
airplane.
And at the time a company
there was right after the acquisition
of Air Wisconsin, when United
bought Air Wisconsin, the original
Air Wisconsin, that kind of
got broken up into pieces.
And I had an opportunity to
work for a company called United
Feeder Service.
So I flew the ATP, which is
that plane right there as a 64 passenger,
100 foot wingspan turboprop.
So it was the biggest
turboprop at the time in the United
States was a little bigger
than the ATR 72.
So I got a first officer
position in that and eventually upgraded
to captain which was pretty,
pretty awesome.
So I did that for a few years
and then I ended up working for Midwest
Express out of Milwaukee.
I flew the MD80 for them,
which I have wonderful memories and
crazy cool experiences flying
with that airline.
I loved it.
The people that I worked for
were amazing.
Unfortunately, after 9, 11,
you know, I don't.
Are you familiar with MDX?
Have you heard of.
I've heard.
I've flown with people that
flew there and I've flown with people
that also flew at Midwest.
I guess they did a take two,
possibly maybe a different airline
in Raleigh, Durham area as well.
So I've been, I have a little
bit of knowledge about it, but speak
on it as much as you want.
Sure.
Well, anyway, what was really
cool about the business plans of
like once again you're in the
business, you understand, you're
like, you want to start a
fight on an airline.
You tell two people sitting
next to each other, ask them what'd
you pay for your seat?
And the prices of what people
pay on their tickets is just, it's
crazy.
As we know.
Well, Midwest business plan
was, it was, it was one fee, it was
one fee for the seat and it
was all first class.
Because if you could figure,
if you could level off the first
class ticket price and frankly
the no fare ticket price and you
level them all out, you say
you have, Everybody just pays $500
for a ticket.
Now everybody gets first class.
So it's two by two, leather seats.
Every flight had a meal,
complimentary cookies, wine and champagne
on every flight papers, everything.
It was, I feel it was the last
of the romantic era.
You know, people dressed up to
fly on us.
It was, we were number one in
the United States for quality and
customer service for 15 years
in a row.
We were top five in the world.
So I mean it was a great place
to work.
And once again it was, it was
everything that I remember as a kid
about how romantic and how
cool aviation was and I got to be
a pilot in that.
I mean, frankly there are old
airplanes too.
I mean the DC9 and the MD80
are not exactly the most modern airplanes.
So we still had to like
calculate with the charts our drift
down points and figure out
where we're going to go and we started
to figure out what VOR did we
use just in case, so things like
that.
So I got to experience that
and so really great.
And then unfortunately 911
happened, everybody stopped flying.
So then Midwest had to
reevaluate the business model and
because frankly, like that
plane I flew, we had 116 passengers
on it, versus American would
have the same airplane with 160 passengers
on it.
So it tells you how much
revenue we were losing by that business
model.
So when people said they
didn't want to fly and we had to
entice them with low ticket
prices, that means we had to change
our business model for the aircraft.
And unfortunately,
unfortunately we lost our identity
a little bit with that.
And it was really tough for
Midwest to overcome that.
And then you start competing
in a market that you're not used
to, you're not used to
competing and it's pretty cutthroat.
You see, Spirit now, once the
major airlines figured out a way
to combat the low price and
the low cost carriers, it's really
affected Spirit's business model.
And obviously they've had
other issues as well with engines
and just some bad luck with mergers.
So.
But once you start changing
your business model up and you don't
have the actual experience for
it, you can make some mistakes pretty
quickly and you can find
yourself in a place you don't want
to be in.
Yeah, unfortunately there's a
lot of airlines with that story.
Yeah, I know.
Yeah, it's crazy.
I mean even.
Yeah.
The amount of airlines that
you've even named already on this
podcast that aren't like the
true airline that they were anymore.
Maybe they're operating as a
regional now, but you know, they're
just not the same airline
anymore because they had a similar
fate.
Yeah, yeah, it's true.
It's, it's sad.
And there's a lot of, as my,
my dad would call, he'd call it the
dinosaur boneyards.
And yeah, you know, there's a
lot of dead dinosaurs out there.
Unfortunately.
They were big, but they're
boneyards now.
So as someone that has flown
King airs, Cheyennes, Airliners,
DC9s, MD 80s, would you say
there's a favorite, a type of flying?
Were you a fan of the
Airline121 flying?
Did you like the more
personalized kind of relational relationship
side of corporate?
What did you enjoy most?
So funny.
You're NetJet guys, so you understand.
So the reality of it is that
because I think of my roots, I've
always loved the personal side
of corporate.
So When I was at Midex Midwest
Express Airlines, I ended up moving
towards.
We had a pretty significant
charter department, so I migrated
over to our charter department.
So I ended up doing a lot of
VIP charter flights, which were really
cool.
So we would fly like the Brewers.
We fly the bucks.
I flew.
So I was not part of the
presidential details, not the actual
president, but when they were
running, like Hillary Clinton, Barack
Obama, John Kerry.
So we were part of that series.
We flew.
So all the airlines typically
do have some.
Like United has a very robust
charter department as well.
So I migrated over to that
because what I loved about.
And I.
And I.
And why I'm still in the
corporate world.
So I still.
We still.
We manage a Gulf Stream.
And I fly a Gulf Stream now I
fly a CJ3 plus still manage it, still
fly that.
I just took delivery of a
brand new 960tbm.
The most modern airplane on
the planet.
Yeah.
So, I mean, like, talk about
like, push the button.
It does everything.
It does it.
It does everything.
Yeah.
But I.
So to go to your question, the
part for me that I love about corporate
versus airlines is the
airlines is very regimented, as you
know.
You have a great dispatching
crew and a great team that work with
you.
But I like the personal touch
and the challenge of corporate.
I like the fact that I can be
more involved in the decision making
and the outcome, the positive
outcome of the flight.
You can say hello to the 200
people you got getting off of your
airplane.
But I get to know the five
people on my airplane.
I get to know that I took care
of those five.
Those people from what they
ate, what they drank.
Was it a safe flight?
Did we get their safe.
You know, did we get to the
right fbo?
Did we make sure that their
cars were taking.
I mean, you've not seen you say.
That, but that's happened before.
I've gone to the wrong FBO before.
So it just.
It's like you don't think
about as an airline pilot, you don't
even think about it.
You're like, all right, what's
my gate?
All right, let's go to the gate.
But sometimes, I mean, you go
to San Antonio and there's a signature
on this side.
There's a signature on this side.
It's all right, well, what
signature you want to go to?
And every once in a while, you
just make an executive decision,
and it's like, dang it, that
was the wrong signature.
All right, let's go.
Taxi back.
Yeah.
Recently we had a C.J.
one of my C.J.s.
it flew out.
Where were we?
It was anyway, not lying.
City, same city.
Airports at each of those
cities, but two different states.
He just said, take me.
We'll just say Thompsonville.
So we're like, Thompsonville,
South Carolina.
Okay, so we flew to
Thompsonville, South.
Nope, Thompsonville, North Carolina.
You know, my experience with
that was Gainesville.
So there's a Gainesville,
Georgia, and there's a Gainesville,
Florida.
And we were dispatched at a
previous job that I had to go to
Gainesville, Georgia.
It was nasty weather going in there.
We're like, all right, we're
an hour and we're getting ready to
send in.
We get a little ACARS message.
Be like, hey, they messed up.
You need to go to Gainesville,
Georgia, or Gainesville, Florida.
And we're like, oh, okay.
Look at the weather.
It's even better.
We're like, sweet.
This worked out for us.
But it happens.
Yeah.
All right, let's go.
Someone needs to check the
airport identifiers next time and
not just assume Gainesville.
But what is also funny to me
about the situation is if you hear
Gainesville, I feel like you
should error toward Gainesville,
Florida, or other than
Gainesville, Georgia.
But who knows?
Maybe they're from Georgia at
that time.
You never know.
Yeah, this guy, he's a
construction guy, and he does things
in rural America.
All over the place.
That's why he's got a jet.
And it is like that.
Just see the moment.
Take me to Tulsa, you know,
Tulsa, Oklahoma, or Tulsa, Illinois.
Just give me.
Yeah, so I want to go to Paris.
All right, well, Paris, Texas,
or Paris, two different planes.
We're either going on the TBM
or we're going on the Gulf Stream.
What do you want?
Yeah, exactly.
Which one do you want?
Yeah, what was the reason that
you didn't keep trying the airlines?
Was it just something that you
remember how much you love flying
corporate, or was it just no
one was hiring at the time and you
kind of fell into the
corporate side?
Okay, great.
This is actually kind of a
nice segue.
Anyway, so mid ex loved it.
So we got bought.
So let me back up at United
feeder service.
It was a weird experience for
me because we were contracted out
as a.
As the pilot group and the
flight attendant group and the dispatcher
group.
But otherwise we were United Airlines.
The planes owned by United,
the gates owned by United, everything
that we did was all owned by United.
So we were never part of
United, but we were representing
United.
And it felt like you were that.
Like you were Cinderella up in
the attic, you know, go represent
us.
But you're not.
You're not us, and it's not
going to work.
Don't talk to me in public.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
So it was like.
It was a very awkward thing.
And then, you know, and then
the regional jets came on the scene.
So they're.
I mean, you know, those people
that are kind of new.
The regional jet was like,
wow, catastrophic at the time for
the mainline carriers because
they thought us regional pilots were
going to be flying those
regional planes and taking all the
mainline jobs.
And it was quite a big deal.
And I was part of the original
RC2 program at United.
And, you know, so we really
got entwined with.
Even with the pilot union and
the management at United, but we
still were not allowed to be
part of the family.
So it left me with a little
bit of bad taste.
So then I went to Mid X and
then I felt I couldn't have been
more family than that place.
Anybody you meet that ever
worked there will tell you that I
felt so much like family.
I felt like we belonged.
And then we had to change
because of 9 11.
And then we got bought by
Texas Pacific Route and.
And Northwest.
And then all of a sudden,
like, relationships started to change,
perspectives started to change.
And then Northwest merged with Delta.
And then Delta, you know,
we're part of.
I could.
I'll stay some other
conversations, but we'll just say
that as a pilot group, we
wanted to be part of.
We were excited.
We thought that we were going
to be part of Delta.
We thought we were going to be
part of a larger family.
And due to circumstances that
we won't talk about today, but we
were not allowed to.
And we were not allowed to be
part of that family that we thought
we were going to be in.
The flight attendants, the
ground crew, the pilots, all of us,
we thought we were going to be
part of a large family.
And once again, we're like,
no, you can fly the flight, but you're
going to be under.
It's like some of our pilots
go to Frontier, you're going to go
to Frontier.
In my case, I was going to get
stapled on the bottom of Republic's
seniority list.
So after 10 years at mid X and
being told I was going to be at the
bottom of a seniority list at
Republic, no offense to anybody,
but literally seeing
instructors that worked for me that
had graduated and they were
way senior to me, it was like, oh,
my gosh, I don't know if I can
handle this.
There was a Lot of reflection
going on in my life.
My son had a family house.
There was a lot of things that
were going on personally.
And talking to friends, I was
given the guidance that, you know
what, why don't you just put
all that work and effort you did
with the airlines and put it
into Illinois Aviation and really
go after it and really, really
make that my 100% passion.
And I did.
And so I walked away.
I do miss it.
From time to time.
I watch, like your United
flight come overhead or I'll watch
Atlas and there's 747.
Literally says Atlas right
over my head.
Like, I wonder what plane that
is, and they'll fly right over.
And I miss it.
You know, sometimes I do miss it.
I'm not going to lie.
But I think it's the best
decision at that point.
Once again, kind of a
catastrophic thing.
But it turned out really well
for me, and it's changed my life.
And Illinois Aviation took
off, forgive the pun.
And we became.
We were already a smaller
successful school, but we became
a larger, very successful
school at that point.
So did you start Illinois
Aviation then?
Is that like your baby or did
you just come on board with it?
Nope.
I started the trunk of my car 1993.
What was so starting.
What was the plan?
Was the plan to eventually
turn it into what you turned in today?
Was it.
I just really love to teach,
and I would just love to be a.
An independent contractor teacher.
And I'll rent a plane and
it'll go from there.
So I started.
Like I told you, I started
what was at Triton College.
At a community college.
And that's how I got my
students back in the 90s.
Once again, as an instructor.
You gotta get time to get a job.
Okay.
I was teaching at Triton, and
then I realized to get more instructed,
to get more students, I
started contracting out other community
college.
So I worked my way up to get
six community colleges.
So I was teaching.
So virtually almost every day
of the week.
I was teaching a ground school
at a college at one point.
And that's how I was able to
get students, put food on the table
for myself.
Not a lot of food, because we
didn't make that much back then.
I mean, I think I made food
$15 an hour.
Yeah, let's do it.
Yeah, we're living it.
This is why I became a pilot.
Yeah.
But it was like, you know, and
so I was getting students, but then
I started to get enough
students that I couldn't handle all
of them.
So I ended up contracting a
couple More instructors to help me
out to cover my students.
I leased planes from other operator.
There were flying clubs on the
field, so we joined the club and
then we would lease the planes
and provide instruction in those
airplanes.
And so that was like, that was
the start.
I then circumstances presented
itself again that like, it really
was a small operation.
It was just me and one other
guy at the time.
We were teaching and we, we
had to.
Basically what I wanted to do
is I wanted to frankly have my wedding,
marry my wonderful wife here
at DuPage Airport.
But like we were acting as a business.
They're like, look, Bob, we
love you, but we're going to kind
of have to say, you're going
to have to become an official business
FBO or you're going to have to
think about getting off the airport
and just like this, you
renting this building as a business
and blah, blah, blah, you're
going to have to make that change.
So that.
I ended up becoming a
certified FBO in 95.
And I ended up having
officially employees and I had fortunately
had a great circle of friends,
a young man named Chris Wostiak,
who was my very first student.
And he became my insurance broker.
So he helped me with all the
nuances of insurance.
Yeah.
And so it started, I only
intended it to be like a, to be frank,
maybe a six plane operation,
five plane operation.
This is going to be my fun money.
I was going to be an airline
pilot and have a fun little operation
on the side.
And this is going to pay for
vacations and, you know, whatever.
And it just kept growing.
The business model kept growing.
And the tagline I put together
was like, we're gonna always be in
a.
Provide a quality education
and an affordable price.
And that was what I drilled on.
From day one when it's really
interesting that you say that.
They kind of like were like,
hey, we need you to be more like,
you have to like go all in or
else we're gonna kick you out, essentially.
Which is like a wild thing to say.
It's like, we're just doing
our thing over here.
Like, why can't we just keep
doing this?
But they're like, nope, we
want FBO and you gotta do it.
I've always thought that it'd
be really cool to own an fbo.
I've also talked to other
people where they kind of say it's
a really tough business.
It's not an easy place to make
a lot of money.
You can kind of say otherwise,
but a lot of the money is made on
fuel from what I gather.
And even then you gotta
compete with the thousands of other
FBOs that are in the area.
I mean, when you think about
they're not.
There's a lot of airports with
a lot of FBOs and a lot of options
for people to choose.
Few, especially Chicagoland area.
You're probably more expensive
than rural.
It's a tough word for me to
say Illinois, you could go somewhere
down in central Illinois and
they probably get fuel.
Pump it yourself and it's
really cheap.
But talk about transitioning
to owning an fbo.
Some of the challenges that
came with essentially your business
was just flight instruction
and leasing airplanes.
And now you are, you're
figuring out fuel, you're figuring
out lav carts.
Maybe you're getting business
jets now, maybe you're getting just
transient people coming in and
talking to them and figuring out
what coffee people like papers.
All that just kind of talk
about struggles that happen with
owning an fbo.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So it's funny, prior to this,
I was just on a call and it's our
marketing team in any way,
they talk about how they should just
drop a GoPro on the head and just.
You know, let you go.
Yeah.
The reality of it is
everything that you're talking about,
it is crazy.
It's 24, seven, seven days a week.
If you want to be good, you
got to put your heart into it.
And you have to.
Like I said, when I stopped
flying for mid acts and I dedicated
myself to Illinois Aviation
when we really turned the corner,
because it wasn't a part time
deal, it was a full time deal.
And that's that whole, you
know, so there's an FBO for fun and
a little bit of training.
There's an FBO to handle
maintenance, there's an FBO to handle
customer service, loading
people in and out of airplanes.
DuPage Airport doesn't allow
us to sell gas.
So that made an FBO even more
challenging because the highest revenue
producer is the gas.
So I didn't even have that on
the table either.
So it was, it was all about service.
It was all about just going
not just 100%, but 200%, if that's
a real number, into every day
and every.
Yeah, but, yeah.
So you know it.
You know, my son, you know, my
son and my wife knew that, you know,
there are days that I sleep at
the hangar because we had planes
coming in late and I had to
take care of it or I had to get up
at three in the morning
because I had to make sure that we
had everything plowed and
shoveled so we could dispatch at
5 in the morning and, you
know, and then people would get upset
about things.
And even though in my mind
they're absurd, you have to listen,
you have to appreciate, once
again, perspectives like we talked
about.
I have to think in their
perspective and think about what
they're thinking and why and
appreciate it.
May not agree, but I can
appreciate their perspective.
And then I have to, I have to
get through that.
And that is the secret sauce
that I learned is that I had to build
a team that could provide the
services at a high level but be willing
to be selfless and give a
little bit less to that themselves.
To be honest, you have to give
a lot more than you get back.
Was there a moment when you
were building this where you were
like, you know, I think the
airlines are hiring again.
Maybe I should go do this again.
Like waking up at.
I'm.
I don't, I shouldn't be waking
up at 3am right now or shoveling.
I mean, you just mentioned
right now you're in Chicago right
now.
You're looking out your window.
I mean, I'm in North Carolina.
It's 65 degrees and it's nice
outside and it's snowing where you
are.
So was ever a moment where
you're like, what am I doing?
Like, I need to get back right now.
Yeah.
Today.
Yeah.
As I was walking in, I could
be honest.
I could be on a 7 47, fly into
Hawaii right now.
What am I doing?
You could.
Yeah.
You can apply, man.
It's not too late.
Go.
Yeah.
You know, I mean, I have some
interesting stories.
I mean, I've had people,
people steal from me, lots of money.
I've had people.
I've, I've been arsoned.
I, you know, so I've, I've
been through some extraordinary things
because you're right, it is a
competitive industry.
And when I was just breaking
in, there's a lot of people that
didn't want me to succeed.
And some of them were not good people.
They were just blatantly.
Sounds like Chicago in general.
Just gotta be careful who you.
You kicked us off in Chicago.
Yeah.
My dad told me a long time ago.
Who's your dad?
Probably said the same thing
because your family's been in it
even longer than mine.
Is that, you know, careful
whose toes you step on because they're
connected to a butt you're
kissing later.
And he was right.
Everybody knows each other.
And.
Yeah, so there was a lot of
people that didn't want us to Succeed.
And there still are.
There are still challenges and
people that don't like what we're
trying to do.
And that is to try and
provide, to get on a large scale.
I want to reach the public in
a large scale in the same model that
I started with one and two
airplanes, and that is that everybody
should fly.
I want.
I mean, let me back up.
I want to make it for those
that can.
I want to make it possible for
them to fly.
So I want to reach as many
people as I can and have personalized
education.
I want to have quality education.
And so a lot of people want to
make it canned food, quick money,
get the heck out, you know,
low risk, high intake, and go.
I'm not quite like that.
And that.
And that bothers some people
in some operations because it works.
The Midwest mid X model in
flight training works.
And that's what I'm doing.
Have you seen it become more
difficult with the bigger you get?
Because, I mean, obviously,
when it's just you, you control your
whole brand.
As you get bigger, you have
new instructors coming in, and you
are holding them to the same
standard that you are, which at sometimes
it's just not possible.
Right.
Like, everyone's different.
You can't expect someone to
love your product as much as you
do.
I mean, you want them to, and
you hope that they do, but, I mean,
at some point, they're just a
cfi, right?
They're not.
You are the brand.
You have the big kind of idea
for everything.
But has it been difficult as
you've gotten bigger to kind of keep
it very personalized like that
or even kind of tempted to go the
route of, well, maybe less personalized?
You can make more money.
There's less to, like, you
know, just like.
Like, change the business
model up, like med X.
Or have you realized that when
you change the business model up,
you're not in your comfort
zone anymore and you start making
some bad decisions?
Yeah.
So, you know, we just.
In this last year, Illinois
aviation has doubled in size.
So we were, you know, 27 to 47
airplanes in just one calendar year,
which is enormous.
So the.
I guess the best way to put it
is with that growth we've got now,
we've went from, say, 50
people to a staff of over 100.
And they maintain quality
control is not that easy.
And it's not because they're
bad people most often.
It's just the people need to learn.
And they learned.
Once again, they learn
different learning styles.
They learn in different locations.
And so it's not that they're
bad is just inexperienced.
So my job as a leader is to
train them properly so that they
can provide a quality
education and make sure that everybody
in the group, from the
mechanics to our dispatchers to our
line techs and line ops, that
they all share the same vision.
That's my job.
And so it's not as easy.
You're right.
There's a lot more rules,
there's a lot more regulation, there's
a lot more.
There's a lot more other
people in play because it's so large.
But in general, in general, it
can be done.
Once again, I got to stay up late.
I got to stay up till one to
send my emails because I couldn't
do it during the day.
It's a grind.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that's when you're like,
you know that 747 is flying over
right now.
It could be me right now.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I have a lot of friends that
fly like you.
Yep.
And they're like, hey, Bob,
we're going to Seattle today to catch
a Kraken game.
I hate you.
I hate you.
So I did.
I started my private training
in Columbus, Ohio.
I would kind of equate that to
the equivalent of what the weather
is like.
Training in Chicago has it
maybe even a little bit better.
There's low overcast, winter flying.
It's hard to get some solid
IFR time in without.
Has it been difficult or even.
I guess a better question to
be is how do you convince someone
that wants to become a pilot
to stay local in Chicago and train
with you rather than say, go
to Florida or Arizona or Texas or
somewhere where it's sunny 300
days out of the year and they can
just fly all the time?
Has that been difficult to you
or has it been kind of the relationships
you're able to create?
And it sounds like from the
outside looking in and the 40 minutes
we talked to is you're a very
passionate person about this.
And if you have the
opportunity to sit one on one with
someone, you're going to win
them over with just how real you
are, and we're going to take
care of you and you're like family.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Yeah.
So the true story, when I was
flying for United Feeder Service,
flying the ATP, one of our
routes that we flew was from Chicago
to South South Bend, and we
would never go above 5,000ft.
And so if you could imagine
flying over Lake Michigan at 5,000ft
during the winter and the
summer, I'd either have significant
icing or I'd have significant
storms every time, and it was just
inevitable.
And you had no time to.
I mean, there's no time to react.
It's just.
It happened so fast.
So what I learned as a captain
there, and once again to no fault
necessarily of the first
officers that I had flying for me,
was that they had no
experience, their skill sets were
really low.
And so they would say, this is
the first time I've ever flown in
ifr.
And I heard that a lot.
This is the first time I've
flown in icing, and I'd hear that
a lot.
Nobody tries to fly in
thunderstorms, but you know, what
I'm saying is like navigating
thunderstorms, you're either on the
ground like in Texas or Florida.
It's a hurricane.
You're on the ground, you're
nowhere near it, you know, so those
experiences from IFR to icing
to thunderstorms, that they don't
get in those other areas we
get in Chicago, provided me the better
stepping stone and knowledge
base to deal with that.
So if you're going to be a pro
pilot, my humble request is, or my,
I guess not request, but my
question would be to you and to others
would be, if you're going to
be a pro pilot, wouldn't you rather
learn what it's like to fly
when it's snowing outside and see
what it's like?
Does the plane actually fall
out of the sky?
If it's snowing and you're
flying through snow and the answer
is no, but you don't know if
unless you've done it, does the plane.
You know, can you fly IFR and
work with a Class Bravo airspace
as an instrument student?
And the answer is yes, you can.
And these are all great things
to learn prior to becoming a professional
pilot.
It makes you a better professional.
So I would almost argue it's
better to learn in Chicago and in
Ohio, where you have a greater
variety of weather conditions, ATC
capabilities, you know what
I'm saying?
And then go to the workforce
and your captain can focus on your
professional development, not
your flying development.
Does that make sense?
No, it makes total sense.
And you're kind of spot on
with that.
I got my private at Ohio
State, and the rest I did in Charlotte,
North Carolina.
So I always dealt with a Delta
or a Charlie in Columbus.
And then when I went back to
Charlotte, there's always the big
Bravo.
There's a lot of approach,
there's a lot of talking on the radio.
And I think when you are
forced, not necessarily Forced.
When you choose that route,
it's kind of, that's the normal to
you.
Like if you, if you start out
of an uncontrolled field, you're
going to be terrified of going
to a Delta or a Charlie just because
you're not used to it.
And talking to the radios can
build up some kind of anxiety and
you can make mistakes.
But if you're there and you're
already learning in it and learning
in Chicago, like you said,
it's great.
Like you get a wide variety of
decision making chances.
I will say to learn how to say
no, to learn what you're comfortable
in.
To learn from flight
instructors, mistakes that they made
in the past and like, oh,
wait, wait, wait, I've seen this
before.
We're not taking off right now.
We are staying on the ground.
Right?
When I was doing my time
building, I was aerial survey and
we only flew during good weather.
And I started realizing that I
am hindering my abilities as a pilot
by only flying in good weather.
So I took a 180 turn and I
flew a single pilot IFR which seemed
like I only flew in bad weather.
And I was like, man, I kind of
wish I was still flying in the nice
weather.
But you, you needed that experience.
So when you hit the line, you
aren't being second guessed for your
flying decisions or your choices.
You are just being kind of
coached up on how the company operates,
on how the SOPs are, what the
manual says, you're not wearing your
uniform right.
You know all those kind of stuff.
Which is more of a job than
you think of staying up to date with
your aom, your FOM and all
that kind of stuff.
So you should just be able to
know how to do something else.
Wait a minute, you guys have
electronics books now?
We had the paper was we had to
shove the paper in, in and out.
Yeah, man, we had not a thing.
For me, there's no way we
carry big suitcases for.
I got a search bar where I'd
literally just type it in and I search.
Yeah.
I hate you guys.
I hate you.
Amazing.
I know, right?
I'm saying when I go back to
my grandpa thinking about what my
grandpa grandpa would say, he
probably just like smacked me like,
you have no idea what I had to
go through.
You have no idea.
Boy.
And I'm complaining about, I'm
complaining about how my updates
are taking too long and my
wifi is too slow.
You mentioned how you grew in size.
You want to talk a little
about how you grew in size?
Was this the acquisition From Spartan.
Was this something you did
separate from that.
But talk about growing in size
and the introduction of Spartan and
how all of that kind of came together.
Sure.
So In October of 2020, 2023, I
agreed to the, to the purchase of
Illinois Aviation Academy to Spartan.
This did not come overnight.
This took.
This was a three year process.
So to put it in perspective,
this didn't happen quickly.
This is something I didn't
need to sell, I didn't need to move.
But what I did want to do was
grow the company.
So in that time period I was
trying to figure out if I was going
to work with capital investors
or a buyout.
And so either way, more or
less someone was taking the flight
controls, if you will.
There is going to be someone
involved in the decision making process.
So what I learned from Spartan
was that they have a history that
is amazing in aviation.
I don't know if you're
familiar with.
Are you very familiar with
Spartan at all?
No talk about it.
So I know of Tulsa and I know
of Spartan College in Tulsa.
What I didn't know is the
expansion of it and I believe California
possibly isn't there.
Denver and then Chicago.
Now is that kind of the head
quarters that they have or the bases?
I would say yeah, yeah, those
are, those are all bases.
But what's really neat is
1928, we're talking about that Spartan,
you know, they were, they
provided, you know, they got started
doing flight training and they
were training the Army Air Corps.
And so they got a history
that's almost second to none in aviation.
And to the point is that
they're the only flight school or
flight operator that is
allowed to still carry their army
insignia on the airplane.
So you will actually see a
black cat on the tail of the Spartan
aircraft.
That comes back to their days
when they were training army aviators.
And the idea is that I like
that history.
I like once again I like, like
you've already heard how I'm grounded
with those old lions.
Well, I wanted to partner with
an old lion and I wanted to partner
with people with experience
that have.
It's not about money, it's not
about the quick turn.
It's about development of
aviation over time and get in developing
with the community.
So that appealed to me
significantly since I was looking
to more or less give the
flight controls to somebody else.
And where in October the
acquisition finally happened and
Spartan shared my vision.
They shared my vision to the
point where the first thing they
did is they said in the honor
of my father who passed away last
Year they created a
scholarship for two people every
year to get their flight
trains paid for in his name because
he was all about the
development of it, he loved, you
know, so that was the first
thing they did, you know, and it
was like, oh my gosh, I mean,
like that, that kind of tells you
about the kind of people they are.
And then they go on and say,
okay, Bob, we believe in your vision.
What can we do to help?
And I started.
It took me five years to
develop a.
With the help of Tim Gentz and
others at College of DuPage, we've
put together an associate
degree program.
Why?
Because we wanted to have
affordable grants, affordable loans,
affordable education for kids
at the community college level.
And they could now get the
private instrument, commercial, multi
CFI and be job ready after,
you know that they'll graduate with
their CFI in two years, which
you can't do it like Ohio State or
Indiana or those other schools.
And our goal is to get them
out in two years and get them instructing,
so get them in the workforce
in three, three and a half years.
That's an awesome goal for
people that may be coming from the
inner city or making a job change.
They need to have the
resources financially, education
wise and materials.
And that's what Spartan
brought to the table, is the materials.
So they brought me the
capability to buy airplanes, which
that's what really has been
hanging me up.
An airplane that I could buy
four years ago for $50,000 goes for
$150,000 now.
Isn't it crazy as someone who wants.
To buy an airplane, it's
absolutely insane.
It's crazy.
It wasn't four or five years
ago that same plane was 50 grand.
When a new 172 now is $600,000
that entry into market to get new
planes.
Everybody wants new planes,
everybody says these old planes break,
blah blah, blah, blah, blah.
Well, come up with 600 grand
for a trainer and let me know how
it works.
You know, someone who has such
a strong vision for what they want,
for what they need.
And you eventually found
Spartan, right?
But you mentioned some other routes.
Was there any temptation to go
elsewhere or was Spartan and kind
of the main fit?
And the first time you really
felt like you could trust someone
with your baby, essentially
because you brought this from the
trunk of your car, like you
said, this was your baby and you
are just handing it to someone
else now who is financially in charge
essentially and makes the decisions.
Was it Spartan all the way?
Did they blow you away with
what they had to offer or were there
Other kind of opportunities
that you're looking into?
No, there were other opportunities.
This was not something.
Not something I rushed into.
No, there were other opportunities.
There were investors that
believed in the program, that wanted
to buy into the program
because they believed in it as well.
It just.
The difference was, is their
mission was purely financial.
It wasn't mission based.
And I feel that the Spartan,
and that's what threw it over the
edge, is that Rob Polston,
who's my boss, I truly believe he's
been in the education industry
for, well, almost 15 years.
So he knows the professional
education programs and his knowledge
of rolling out vocational
schools to the people, his knowledge
about doing that and being
able to bring investors to the table
that are willing to invest in that.
I found that that was the
icing on the cake.
And then meeting the team,
there's so many great people I work
with, my wife, I mean, you've
heard this saying, I have a great
team at iaa.
I have a bigger family now in Spartan.
And it's great because I'm
working with co workers that I look
up to, which I think is pretty.
It's nice to go to work and
know that I'm working with people
that drive me to be better
every day.
I mean, I always try to be
better, but it's always neat to look
up the people here and there.
And I do try to find
inspiration wherever I can from people
or things or thing, you know,
things I read.
But that's what Spartan brings
to the table is inspiration.
Sorry.
If that's correct, you know,
what's the.
Vibe I'm getting from this?
No, no, it's fine.
And the vibe I'm getting and
kind of as a student, if I was to
go back and I was to invest a
lot of money into this career and
you're looking at major flight
schools or universities, it's really
easy to become a number and
just become a per.
Not even like a person.
You are just a number.
They're trying to get you through.
They want to get you to 50.
They want to see you get on
with a regional and they want to
see you post about it in your
success stories.
But what's really hard is in
the training moments if you're.
I mean, this might not be for
every kind of big flight school,
but if you start falling
behind, they might not have as much
leeway or kind of the ability
to help you out.
They're just like, hey, maybe
this isn't for you and you spent
all this money.
We're not going to give it
back to you, but you might need to
find somewhere else to go.
But what I'm trying to get at
is it's really important for you
to figure out find a place
that values you as a person.
And it sounds like that's your
goal and that's Spartan's goal as
well, which is really cool to
see as a big flight school that someone
can still kind of have that ability.
I agree.
And that, that's the part
that, you know, frankly that scares
me the most is that quality,
the customer service.
I don't want to lose the
identity that mid ex lost when they,
when they got bought by, you
know, after 9 11.
I don't that that's a
nightmare for me and I don't want
to lose that.
It's truly a nightmare for me.
Yeah.
But the part that I also am
excited about though is that, well,
it.
Sounds like you found a good
team to partner up with though, because
it sounds like they share your
values and they buy in.
Absolutely, I believe they do.
I really do.
And the part that I really am
excited about is the desire for innovation
that Spartan is going to start
bringing to the table too.
So I'm all about like Frasca,
who is based in Illinois.
I don't know if you're
familiar with the Frasca simulators.
You know, they've come out
with a full motion helicopter sim
and they're developing a full
motion level C simulator, you know,
for fixed wing airplanes.
So the part that the
leadership and I share is that the
innovations in aviation
technology and training, I'm excited
about the future, where that's
going to go.
It's going to be pretty neat.
So I'm curious if you would
have any advice like you actually
meet and talk to more people
in aviation than I do.
I love your platform.
I love what you do.
How about advice to people
like me in what we do and things?
The insight that you, you've
gained that you could share with
me because I would be grateful
for any information.
I think the number one advice
would probably be just to remember
why you got into this and
remember that you're here for the
person itself.
I think it's so easy to just
forget about the individual that's
going through flight training
that might be struggling and not
see them as a student that is
just here to get in and just get
their ratings and go, but kind
of get to know them and personally
make it as advantageous as
possible for them.
I think that's the best route
to go.
And I think that if you can
keep it as personal as possible.
And if you can keep it
intimate and you can keep it about
the person and not just about
the flight training, I think it'll
be very successful and will do well.
I agree.