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Interviews with entrepreneurs and business leaders who’ve “made it” in Thailand. Real stories of ambition, setbacks, and strategic wins on the path to success. Built for founders and operators who want to win in Thailand.
Guests from the US, UK, Australia, and Thailand. Honest journeys and cross-cultural lessons. Inspiration for anyone building in the Thai market.
Apply to be a guest:
https://madeitinthailand.com/apply
Hosted by Scott Pressimone, a US expat based in Thailand for 13+ years and owner of Fractiond, a Thailand-based strategy consultancy.
#ThailandBusiness #ExpatSuccess #ThaiExpat
Thailand is huge.
There are nearly 300 international
schools here in Thailand alone.
How do you find a pathway
for your children?
Even the cheapest schools are expensive.
You are looking at sometimes a
10 to 20 million baht investment.
The world is changing fast, but AI
has really changed how we do things.
The reality is if we don't embrace
the advancements of a technology, we
are doing our kids a disservice and
not preparing them for the future.
Our job is to teach them to
critically think, to understand facts.
Versus opinions.
The greatest privilege we ever
have as parents is to educate
our children well, and that means
giving them as many options as
they can to have a successful life.
Alright, so I'm here
with Donnah Ciempka.
Donnah has spent her career leading
and teaching across multiple
countries, including Australia,
Korea, China, and of course Thailand.
And she served five years as
the head of school at Ascot
International in Bangkok.
She sees the Thai education system
from some angles that a lot of
parents really never get to see.
If we're honest.
I'm actually inviting her on here.
I would say for a bit of selfish
reasons, because I'm of course raising
my own children here in Thailand and I
have been for the last several years.
Um, but.
I often come to Donnah for advice
because she's someone whose
perspective I truly do trust.
And unfortunately, um, despite
having known Donnah for a few years,
she's gonna be leaving us in a
few days and headed off to Italy.
So I thought this would be a good
time to have her on the podcast before
she goes get some of her insights.
And so, Donnah, I just wanna thank
you for, uh, joining me today.
Oh, my pleasure.
Thank you.
And thank you for
saying such nice things.
No, but we, we have had some
passionate conversations, right?
You and I have been, um.
We've, we had some similar circles
here and there and I think, uh, you
have a ton of passion around education,
of course, being in this for so long.
Um, but you know, honestly, there are
also some other things just that are
specific to Thailand that I think we
just need to build some awareness to.
And so that's what I'm
hoping we can do today.
Absolutely.
Given the recent shift, uh, you've
just handed off the school to a new
head, I'd love to hear from you.
How does that feel to almost close that
chapter and, uh, and make a change?
Honestly, it's, it's a little bit like
handing your baby over to grandma.
In the sense that, you know, they're
gonna be safe, you know that they're
gonna be loved, but it's not you.
And that, that anxiety of what's
going to happen, you can't control it.
So for me, I'm excited about Ascot
and I and the future of Ascot.
The, they've a point of, well, and
I'm excited about moving to Italy, but
education is an industry where it's.
It, it's a, it's a labor of love.
You build relationships with your
students, with your families, with your
teachers, and so you miss the people.
And so for me it's, um, there's
a little bit of bittersweet
I'll miss these people.
And how lucky are we to work in an
industry where our lives are touched
and, and we touch other people's lives.
So it's a good place, but,
um, a little up and down.
Yeah.
I think I saw some of your, uh,
post on LinkedIn where it would
be like the students or the staff
kind of giving you the farewell.
So, um, I'm sure that
was, that was tough.
It was, but what I started at about
just after Songkran is I started
a ChatGPT chat, wherever I make
a, have a memory and it's called
What I'm Gonna Miss about Ascot.
And it's literally for me.
And I just, when I have a memory, I
voice it in and it's been building up.
And, uh, it's, it's been lovely
because for me it's, it's a nice way
to remember all those little things.
You forget.
It's a bit like when someone
says, write down all the funny
things your children's saying.
You're like, I'll remember.
You don't, it's the same.
It's just that re re remind
yourself of all the good stuff.
Because there is so much of it.
Yeah.
I love that.
Well, we'll probably touch on technology
and ChatGPT later on because obviously
that, uh, has a quite a bit to do
with how education is changing too.
I'm curious if you have any
thoughts about individuals
that are arriving to Thailand.
Um, you know, what do you think
are maybe misunderstandings or
things that maybe surprised you
when you first came here and after
you got acclimated to Thailand.
How long have we got?
Um, no, I think there's,
there's two pieces.
There's living and working in
Thailand and then there's living and
working in Thailand with children.
And, and I'm gonna start
with the second because, um,
that's my area of expertise.
But when you are an expat, my
husband and I have done this.
Italy will be our fourth country and
our sixth different city, and we've
moved our family the whole time.
It really is more than just you.
And it really is more
than just moving for work.
And so understanding your children,
where they're at and what they
need, I think is significant in any
country, but more so in Thailand.
Knowing the best pathways for them
educationally, I think is a big
challenge because Thailand is huge.
There are nearly 300.
International schools
here in Thailand alone.
And so how do you find a
pathway for your children?
How do you navigate activities,
ECAs, social and emotional
support, medical needs?
All of those pieces I think is a really
interesting dynamic here in Thailand.
And when I came to Thailand, I
just expected it to be tropical,
to be lush, to be wonderful.
And it is.
But you are also living in a
very, very busy, in many ways,
highly disorganized country.
And that's why we love it and
juxtapositions of absolute incredible
technology and then things done
so incredibly traditionally
that understanding Thailand
is, is a unique unique place.
Yeah.
I couldn't, I couldn't help but think,
uh, as you said that Donnah of the
ladders that you see going up where
someone's working on a tangle of, uh,
cables and, you know, cable lines and
everything through the city, and it's
just this bamboo ladder with a guy
going up and probably with no harnesses
or anything on and or whatever.
Whatever.
So it's, it's tough.
Well, similarly, I saw a guy
doing work on it the other day
and he took a photo, which is very
common in Thailand, to show your
boss that you've done your work.
And I'm like, how does the
boss know which wire there?
Is the wire he's put in.
Um, but it is, it's that, that, that
old and the new, I've never experienced
so much fast-paced technology.
And you go into the big shopping
centers and, and it's, it's state
of the art and it's amazing.
And then no one recycles.
You put your garbage out and then
people go through it and recycle it.
Or you know, we go to a
market and we buy our fruit
and vegetables on the street.
You know, it's that, that
juxtaposition now, I love that,
but it's not for everyone.
And someone once said to me, and
I think it's incredible advice in
Thailand, unlike other countries,
you get the, the luxury of choosing
how Thai engaged you wanna be.
You can live in your amazing high
rise and have drivers and all of
that and, and it's a wonderful.
Different experience or you can live
in a house in a Moo Baan and you can
have, you know, and, and we live a lot
like that in that we buy our food off
the street and we, you know, and that's
the beauty of Thailand is understanding
that you have the freedom to choose.
Yeah.
I couldn't agree more.
Uh, I. I love the optionality you
get here, whether it's the area
you live, the type of location, as
you said, living in a Moo Baan and
living in a high rise, living in
the country, living in the city, you
know, there's something for everyone.
That's a great point.
And I also want to double down on
your point about it's different
to move with a family or Oh yeah.
Uh, raise a family in Thailand
versus coming in, uh, single or, or.
Maybe without children, right?
Mm-hmm.
Um, because it is very different.
Uh, that's a, a little bit of a tension
I get with some of my audience sometimes
because I've done videos like budgeting
and stuff like that in Thailand, and
sometimes it's a little bit different
if you are a retiree or if you are
young and you know, a backpacker.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, and if you're raising a
family here, these are just very
different categories, you know?
And, and I'm curious if you agree there.
I honestly, I do think it is
very much the core of what I do.
And one of the things I, I like to
do whenever I will move to a city is
jump on Facebook groups because, um,
I'm not a prolific poster, but it
gives you a sense of what's going on.
And one of the most interesting
posts I see regularly is, what's the
best school for my kids in Thailand?
And it's like, well, how, how long's
a piece of string because there are.
So many pieces and factors and layers
to that question, then people answer.
And once again, the answers are so
bespoke to a person's experience.
I think it sometimes
perpetuates misunderstandings.
Or I, I like to call
them working theories.
Ideas that haven't really been
worked or teased out because gone
are the days where every person
who went to an international school
was a diplomat or a missionary kid.
Or someone working in high corporate.
International schools in Thailand
are deregulated, so there's a reason
there's 300 schools because Thai
nationals can also go to those schools.
So it's a very different ballgame.
And, and one of the things I
like to say to families is.
How, what's your journey?
What's, why are you in Thailand?
What's the plan and where to next?
Because it really does inform
that how you look for schools.
Some people are coming here
and they plan to settle and
make Thailand their home.
And I've met many people like that.
And so the advice I give them is very
different than say, someone who's
coming for three years on a very
defined, um, diplomat path, visa,
passport, and then going back to home
country or going onto another posting.
Even things as simple as
who's paying your school fees?
Is it self-funded?
Is it paid by your company?
What are your kids like?
What are their personalities?
What do you hope to achieve?
And then more importantly, in
Thailand, because traffic is the
one thing I hate about this country.
It's the only thing I dislike
about this country, but it's a very
real factor in that, in choosing
schools, where are you gonna live?
Once you have those answers or
those ideas, then we are able
to advise you better, because
bigger doesn't always mean better.
Let's use the word top tier schools,
large enrollments, beautiful facilities,
great programs, but you may not get in.
Or you may have a child who doesn't
thrive in that environment or
the, the, the top tier school's
approach to learning doesn't align
with home country's learning.
So there's more pieces to this
than just go to this school
or this, this, this school.
Everyone goes there.
I think you're a hundred percent
right, Donnah, because, uh, as
we're talking about it, you have
different categories, right?
You have someone who's
just coming here for a bit.
You have people, I mean,
again, there's even just the
people that don't have family.
And we're gonna be focusing
obviously on the ones that do.
But the point is that, um, you
know, when you have children, you
know, obviously they become a.
Center of, of everything, right?
And, and then it kind of becomes,
okay, what do they care about?
And then, and then if you do identify
a good school that's not, or a good
location or something that matches
their, their lifestyle, then again, now,
now you might be thinking about where
you, where you end up living and what
type of house you end up getting, right?
So, so it's, I know for me, again, we
moved because of this school and then
we're that now thinking what in that
region, uh, would match what we want.
So it's just funny how
things flip a little bit.
When you're, when you're looking for
a condo and saying, or, or looking
about, how can I be next to the
beach versus when you have children,
it's gonna be a little bit more of
how can I make sure my, my children
are comfortable and my children
are getting what they're needed.
But, but I, I think the other thing that
you said there, which was about knowing
where you're going after too, right?
Because if it's a post mm-hmm.
Posting or if it's, um, you
know, these things matter, right?
Mm-hmm.
Because I, I, I guess.
I am curious of your opinion on when
people don't do that, when they just
put someone, let's say they say,
you know, I want my kid to be fully
understanding of the Thai culture.
I'm gonna put them into a public
school, which could be an option
or a good option for some.
Absolutely.
Right?
But then maybe they are gonna go back
to their, um, their home country or
to another country with a different
education system in two or three years.
Um, could that cause challenges?
And once again, how long's a piece
of string if your child's two, no.
But if your child's 15, yes.
Because it's also then the journey
of where you want your child
to study and tertiary study.
And so quite often I, I do
advise people, they'll call me
out and say, what should I do?
And it's, it's that same question.
Where does your child
wanna go to university?
What study pathways?
If, if you are a British citizen
and you are here for three years
and your child wants to study
in the uk, pick a UK school.
Where they're gonna do their,
their, their matriculation
and go into that pathway.
But if you don't know or you wanna
stay here in Thailand, then you have
to choose pathways that are going to
give your children the most options.
One of the biggest challenges I see
is, and I'm not really sure if this is
the correct language, but dual-racial
marriages where one partner is from one
country and one partner is from another.
And let's use the example of when one
partner's tie, and the other might
be Australian or American or British.
And your child has been in the Thai
system because they're now bilingual,
they're accessing the education.
But you want your child to study
back home in country of birth.
Your child may not have the academic
capabilities aligned with the system
that you are wanting them to enter.
And so it is very much even at 12 or 13
saying, where do we want our kids to go?
What's our long-term plan?
Now things can change.
Like I still dunno what I wanna be
when I grow up, but, you know, things
can change, but you've got to have
a pathway and you've got to know
where you wanna be so you can at
least put the, the blocks in place.
Finance plays a huge part in that too.
Because international
school is expensive.
Even the cheapest schools are
expensive, and what I find is
a lot of families will look at
saying, my child's three or four.
Yep.
Those school fees are fine.
But then when my child gets 15, no
one's really looked and went, wow,
there's suddenly, we are looking
at an increase in fees every year.
And then multiply that by 13 years,
you are looking at sometimes a
10 to 20 million baht investment.
And so really looking
and saying long term.
Can we sustain these school fees?
Yes.
It's such a great point.
And finances are so important here.
And they're important in the family.
I mean, I just think about
the stats of how many
they're important everywhere.
Everywhere, right?
It's like you, but you think about,
um, how often people have financial
challenges in their marriage, right?
Because it's just one of the most
common ways that people end up fighting
and you run into all these issues.
It's 'cause maybe you didn't have
those discussions early about what
the costs were gonna be later.
And it seems like.
You said working backwards.
So it's like you're working backwards
from what your children want.
Do they wanna go to university
back in your home country?
Okay.
Working backwards from there.
What track do they need to be on?
Okay.
What, um, what is that
going to maybe cost?
Not only that, as you said, what
is it gonna cost in the later years
because the prices change over time?
I'd add one more.
Um.
Curve ball or thing that can come
up is having more than one child.
Maybe you have one child, right?
I'm talking about if they obviously
are younger, but if you have one, one
child, then you say, you know what, uh,
this, uh, my son I would love if they
had someone to play with or whatever.
Or my daughter, I wish they had someone.
So then you have another one.
And then we have this funny thing
called that, that multiplier.
And you don't always get
discounts when you have two.
You, I just have double,
double school fees.
Right?
And so, um, these are all
really important considerations.
And so this plays to my question to
you, is that Donnah, do you like.
How is this working?
I I, I'm just confused because it
just seems like, as you said, fees are
high now, they can be well worth it.
There's some really great schools here,
but how are people paying for this
and with so many international schools
opening, I just don't understand it.
Look, I, I, I'm with you, Scott.
I, I, I think once again,
gone the other days where.
99% of school fees are
paid by the company.
When I worked in a school in China,
we had 1% of our overall school
fees not paid by the company.
Right now, I think I have 10% of
my school fees paid by the company.
Most of our fees are paid for
by families and predominantly
families working really hard.
To, to send their children to
school and then given the state
of the Thai education system, and,
and there's nothing wrong with the
state of the Thai education system,
but it's a monolingual education
system, and what we know is language.
And dual languages and pathways,
particularly to university, is what
then guarantees success in life
from for many people's perspectives.
And it's really tricky because
the world is changing fast.
When I went to school,
it was study hard.
You can be a doctor, study
hard, so you can be a lawyer.
And now I've got students
who are nuclear physicists
or animators or game designs.
I've got graduating students who
want to have their own startup.
I didn't even know what a startup
was at 17, so the world's changed.
So it's really hard other
than a crystal ball.
It is about, um, I think it's about
knowing your context, and I know
I just said that, but it is really
having a good, hard, realistic look.
At your context and the, I
suppose the only way I can
explain that is what we've done.
We have three children, two adult
children, and our son Oscar is 14.
And we love Thailand.
I love working here, but I looked
at Oscar and I went, he's 14.
Do I have another five more years in my
current role, in my current position?
And the answer is no for me, I
want, I'm ready for a new challenge.
Am I ready to leave Thailand?
Not yet, but I've got to
do it now because for us,
we'll move to our new school.
Oscar will get settled in,
and then you've got five years
there for him to graduate.
And, and we've made
some choices based on.
The constraints of the situation
at hand, and it, it, it is very
much like that many families
opt to homeschool their children
when they move internationally.
Once again, that's great, but if you are
not accredited with some organization
back at home, it's not going to count.
Similarly, any reputable schools have
accreditations with external bodies.
So all the good schools here have either
WASC, NEASC or many different American
college accreditations that's done so
that those students, their, their time
studying here is recognized back in.
Um, the US most British schools
have the same, so it's, it's
live this glorious life.
Okay?
Embrace this glorious life,
but recognize that you can't
wake up one day and want your
kid to study in a university.
And not have done the hard
yards and put things in place
in order for them to flourish.
Yeah.
That, and what a great example of
the fact that you're experiencing
that now with your son.
And as you said, you might enjoy
Thailand, but it sounds like it was
that crossroads where it's what's
right for him and you can't just.
You know, hope and pray and,
you know, cross your fingers
and say, I think it'll work out.
Uh, you're, you're being
intentional, right?
You're, you're making a, a decision,
uh, that's right for your family, right?
And knowing, and, and this is
where finance comes into it too,
knowing what you can afford, but
then doing the sums saying, and
what can I afford in five years?
Given that maybe there might, you know,
we know the cost of living's doing this.
It's never gonna do this.
Okay.
And, and that's the other trap.
So when you think about it, five years
ago we were in the middle of COVID.
We are now heading into a recession.
Don't know, we can't presume that
the only way is up financially.
So it is that, that sum too, uh, saying
to yourself, can, can I sustain this?
Because moving schools for kids is big.
It's a great point.
And again, I don't mean to be too
negative on the finance thing,
but it's just the things stack up.
Right?
So I'll just say that with, uh,
with my children, it's, you get
the school fees, then you have,
you know, vans, if you'd wanna do
pickups, then you have the extra
activities and whatnot that you do.
And my kids do TaeKwonDo and stuff,
and then there's things after
school and their study groups
and all these things add up.
So you have to add.
A buffer there, and you certainly
can't stretch all the way to the end
of the rope because, you know, and,
and just assume you're gonna get a
raise or make more money or whatever.
Um, because that
doesn't always work out.
And then your question becomes,
well, now what happens now if you
did end up at the end of your rope?
And you know, now, I don't know if
you've experienced that, if any of
the individuals at your school have,
or parents have experienced that,
where now they're under their rope
and now it's a really tough decision
because if there's nothing more there.
What do you do now?
Right.
And quite honestly with you,
I think that very much that
is the reality at the moment.
And what we, what, there are a
couple of pieces that I would, I
would suggest it, and number one is
know that in Thailand, international
schools increase their fees every year.
So all, all, all paid for schools, like
early years is cheaper than year 13, but
then that's usually just tuition fees.
And then each year schools increase
their fees generally in line with GDP.
So anywhere from two to 6%.
Okay, so there's that factor
in, and then Absolutely.
It, it's the expense.
You know, as children get older, it's
the exams, they sit, they're all gonna
need a device that, so it is the buffer.
But what we are finding too, is
many families want discounts and
they wanna negotiate a discount.
And what I would say is, is
I'm all for a bargain, but in
education it's very, very hard.
To get a discount because we
still need to pay the teachers.
We still need to deliver the product.
And I would be very wary of schools
offering discounts because, um, you
get what you pay for an education.
And so you see a lot of that now,
people bartering and wanting a discount.
Well, if I offer you a 20%
discount, does that mean you
come to school four days a week?
Do you know, like it, it's
an interesting dynamic.
And then we do get many families
who come to the end of the road.
And if you're a Thai national,
the only other real option is
to go back to a Thai school.
That's hard because it's a
very different framework.
It's not better, it's not worse.
It's a very different framework.
The gaps in learning based on
language, the gaps on learning based
on academics, but more importantly.
Kids take a long time to adjust.
And I would say there's
very few children who don't
transition faster than a year.
And they may on the outside be like,
I've got new friends, this is great.
But on the inside
there's a lot going on.
And so that's something I do see
it I I see here more than I've seen
anywhere else in the world is families
chopping and changing schools.
And that worries me from a long-term
social and emotional perspective.
What we know is friendship.
Relationships are just as
important as reading and writing.
Yeah, what a great point.
It's, it's the depth that's
really thinking through this.
'cause these are big decisions
and, uh, to your point, you, it's,
there's some things that just don't
show up on the paper and, and, you
know, you have to really be thinking
about those relationships, those
long-term, um, things and mm-hmm.
Impacts on your children.
Right.
So, totally agree.
Now that, that brings me to another
question about bilingual schools.
'cause you had touched on
homeschooling, it sounds like
that can be an option for some.
Um, you rightfully pointed out that
you really have to think about.
What the next steps are and
whether or not those things carry
over, um, the accreditation and
other important factors there.
But I'm curious if you have
a take on bilingual schools.
I'm, I'm probably gonna be shot
down by every other head of the
school, but I don't think there's
a right educational framework.
I think there's a right educational
framework for your kids and
the life you want them to have.
And I think it's a matter
of, of slotting it in.
But I think bilingual schools are.
Not new, but they're becoming more
and more sexy and certainly much
more popular, and they make sense for
somebody who's a long-term resident
or is going to be in the school or
in the country for a large amount
of time so that their children
become proficient in the languages
I think it's an excellent option.
For a one or two year stint.
I don't think it's ideal, and
the reason I don't think it's
ideal is we know language.
Takes years to develop.
You think about from the time of baby's
born to the time they're reading and
writing, it's five, six, maybe seven
years before they've got the basics.
Okay?
And so if you want a fa, a child
to be truly bilingual, and that
means they're reading and writing
in that language, it takes time.
And so for a long-term commitment,
I think it's an excellent option.
I also firmly believe the more language
our children use and speak, the more
capable they are because intellectually
their brains are, are used to looking
at patterns and systems and are
flipping and flopping and, and that's
important I think from a cultural
global citizen perspective, I think
it's glorious because it's truly helping
our kids see that no one way is right.
Every single culture has beautiful,
glorious things in it and things
that seem a little perplexing to us.
So I think bilingual schools have
a huge place, and it excites me.
It really does, particularly
when you're looking at say, an
Asian versus English language.
I love that, that Asian systems are
having that same level of recognition.
But if you, but it is, it's
not for the faint-hearted.
That's great.
And I think there's nuance
there, as you just shared.
It's that depends on the family,
depends on the situation.
I like that you brought it back to
the time that you're going to be here.
That's so important.
One very quick note that I'm gonna
share is that I, I've noticed in
my village, right, there's people
that go to different schools, some
bilingual, some international,
some um, public schools, right?
It's a mix.
Um, one.
The slight push I'd put towards
the, uh, things I like about
bilingual schools is that there's
the cultural differences too.
And I've seen some individuals,
even in my, uh, my neighborhood
where they're so fully immersed
in another, uh, culture, right?
Let's say that's like they're
going to a British school or
something like that, that they
actually don't interact very well.
With the Thai people
in their communities.
Um, and, and I'm not saying that's
every school, and I'm not saying that's
every person, but it's just something
that I've noticed because, you know,
whether it's how they introduce
themselves, how they speak to their
elders, some of these things, um, I
don't know how, how, but somehow it's
not making its way through and to the
point that there's friction there.
And you see like a young child
sometimes where they don't know
how to interact with people,
um, in, in, in a Thai manner.
Whereas, um, I do feel
fortunate that with my children.
Uh, you know, they speak with
their mother in Thai they
speak with me in English.
They, uh, they're usually in their play,
are using English, but they're reading
and writing in two different languages.
They're thinking in two different
languages depending on the
context they're changing.
And most importantly, in my opinion,
they know how to have respect, um,
to different cultures because they
can understand different cultures.
And again, that's not to say that
bilingual is the only option for that.
International schools I'm sure
are teaching a level of that
as well, but I'm just, I just a
note to parents to be thinking.
If we're gonna be here longer, I've
met a lot of either Thai individuals
or international individuals that have
been here for years and they can't read
and write Thai and they PR sometimes
have issues, um, speaking and using
the right words, um, in, in, in Thai
to gain the trust and credibility with
sometimes other ties in the community.
So it just something to be
thinking about, I suppose.
And it is education matters, okay?
Kids have to be proficient.
In one language.
That's the basic minimum
to function in this world.
And what I see a lot is families
who have incredible dynamics.
They may come from, you know, and
I'll use an example, I had a family
come and want to enroll this week.
And the, the, the family's
birth language or, um,
first language is Hindi.
Um, the child has been in a Thai school.
And another international
school, but the child is not
proficient in one language.
The child's 15, but the, the most
advanced reading and writing age
we've got is about seven or eight.
Mm-hmm.
It's too late.
In order for that kid to matriculate
in any system, he's probably going to
be 20 before he's able to function well
enough to even look at tertiary study.
So.
You almo, you need to
make some decisions too.
And this is a family who's lived
in Thailand their whole life.
Okay?
So sometimes we make decisions very,
very quickly around our kids' education.
And what I'm gonna say is the greatest
privilege we ever have as parents
is to educate our children well.
And that means giving them
as many options as they can
to have a successful life.
And that's why I, I
really keep pushing that.
Think about the end because if
you don't put the right things in
place, you may without realizing
it, cut your child's future off.
I know that sounds very
dramatic and it's not meant
to, but kind of think about it.
It's more than next week.
Yes.
Yes, yes, absolutely.
Now, Donnah, I, you touched on
technology at the beginning.
We were talking about how you use
ChatGPTUh, I imagine technology
is one of those tough topics
in schools, because of course,
you want to keep everyone on
the innovative side of things.
You want children to learn, right?
But then technology, you know,
the, the, uh, what is it?
The, um, the watches, the smart
watches, the iPads, the phones,
the, you know, TikTok, I mean.
Then of course, all the AI tools.
So I'm just kind of curious, how do you,
as a mother and as an educator, how are
you dealing with technology nowadays?
I'm sure my son says terribly.
Um, I think that, um, it, it's
tricky and it's a little bit scary
and it's more scary for us because
we're old and we don't know it.
Um, but what we have to
remember is that for our kids.
That's their life.
Like my mother keeps telling me where
she's got her money stashed for when
AI takes over the world with its guns.
I'm like, mom, it's not gonna happen.
Um, and she is highly fearful of
ai, so she should be, she's 80.
I mean, this is a woman who has seen
so many advances in technology, and
I said, but think about it, mom.
No one got upset when washing
machines were invented and we went
from the, you know, the old fashioned
to now you can program it and it's
a smart machine and it knows the
setting and it knows how to dry.
No one got scared about that.
Technology's the same thing at the end
of the day in schools and in education.
It's like the washing machine.
What is the purpose?
What are we trying to achieve
and how can we embrace the
innovation to harness that?
Okay.
I firmly believe that the best
way to teach a child to write
is with a pen and pencil.
Right now there is no technology
better than that or to cut
something with a pair of scissors.
But if you are looking to access
information, the internet is a far
more diverse array of sources of
knowledge than when I was a kid and
it was the World Book Encyclopedia.
And so it's understanding what
we're trying to achieve and then
recognizing what we need to teach kids
in order for them to be successful.
So when I went to school, yes,
I'd look at the World Book and
I'd copy the information and
I'd turn it into my own words.
I didn't really need a
lot of critical thinking.
Whereas now when our kids have
access to so much technology, um,
we as schools and as parents have
to think about, well, what do we
need to teach them to be successful?
And, and that's the shift because
the reality is if we don't embrace
the advancements of a technology, we
are doing our kids a disservice and
not preparing them for the future.
But in the same breath,
it's not all jump in.
My son got his first
phone at 14 mobile phone.
Why?
Because he needed it because he was
now staying back for sports and he
needed to communicate before then.
He didn't need YouTube.
At his fingertips.
He could sit and use his brain but and
think, and God forbid, read and access
information by imagining and living
in his head, but when the need for it
was to have a phone, then he got one.
Similarly, in schools, and I think
you'll find most schools are very
much embracing of that, we only
put the tools in front of the kids
when they need it to move forward.
But AI has really
changed how we do things.
And it's not the devil, it really isn't.
It's about understanding, again, how
it works, and it's then understanding
the age of children, what they
need and what they need to know.
As far as I'm concerned, a
2-year-old does not need ai.
In fact, to be completely honest
with you, I don't think many
children from under the age of
12 need AI in their daily life.
Okay?
However, as they get older.
They do, but our job is to
teach 'em to read and write.
First.
Our job is to teach them to
understand facts versus opinions.
Our job is to teach them
to critically think.
Our job is to teach them to look
at their sources and to use data.
'cause never before is that
the more important piece.
And so it is that balance.
It's not easy.
But also it's, it's very hard because at
schools we operate in a very different.
Realm to what happens at home.
Yeah, I, I definitely agree Donnah, and
I think it is a really hard challenge to
deal with it, but you also have to not
bury your head in the sand, and you have
to have, back to the point of everything
we've talked about, have a bit of a
strategy, you know, there's nuance
there and you have to have a plan.
Um, I argue back to parenting, it's
like you can have fights over devices
and kids if you're not creating
a policy, if you're actually not.
Formulating and talking
through these things, then it's
gonna bring up stress, right?
But, but I think, uh, I always use that
simple example of you're gonna have
fewer fights with your children, uh,
trying to get the cookies in the grocery
store if you have the conversation
before going into the grocery store.
And so, you know, if you're having
these policies with children ahead
of time, they're not gonna love it.
They're also going to understand
it more than if you're, you know,
uh, saying no more iPad and then
you're pulling their iPad out.
And if, if it's a child who's
unfortunately been kind of addicted to
an iPad, um, they're probably going to
be, uh, you know, screaming or whatever.
And obviously I think we've all
witnessed that sort of thing before too.
So I, yeah, it's, it's a tough
one.
I say to parents all the time,
if your parent, if your kids
hate you, 'cause let's face it,
we've all been taught I hate you.
You are the meanest parent in the
world, then you're doing your job well.
Because it's your job
to raise these children.
Well, and I often say to
parents when they're like, my
kid's addicted to the iPad.
I'm like,
well,
what do you do on the weekends?
Yes.
And if you are saying to your kid
too much screen time, and then
you are sitting on your laptop,
actions speak louder than words.
And I'll say it, my son came
to Thailand at the age of nine.
In the middle of COVID in a pandemic, he
relied on his technology, A, to keep him
connected with his peers in Australia
and B, to forge relationships here.
He still uses technology for his,
his, you know, they're on gaming
and chatting and doing these things.
That's great.
If I just took his and said,
go for a bike ride, he'll
look at me like I'm crazy.
So it's like, alright.
We are all going for a bike ride,
and that's a non-negotiable.
And once we've been for a bike
ride, you can get on your iPad.
We made a deal with him.
You can have unlimited iPad time
on the weekends, but you must do
four physical activities a week.
So that might be football
training, that might be playing
rugby, but then we'll back off.
If you don't do four, you're doing
something on the weekend so that
there's parameters around it.
Similarly in this country, and I
will be very blunt with you, what
is accessible on mainstream social
media is highly concerning and our
students and our children are in
Thailand never before are being allowed
on social media and they're seeing
things that are just not appropriate.
And I do urge one
parents, if you live here.
Have your kids on YouTube be watching
what they put, put parameters on it
because what's available on social
media here doesn't have the same
layers of control, as in, in Australia
or the uk, but similarly to Stranger
Danger and Predators, as Thailand is
is the number one country for human
trafficking, we need to recognize
that we are in a foreign country.
And there is a, a darker
side to this country.
And as parents, we wouldn't say to
our kid, drop them in the middle of
Sukhumvit and say, get yourself home.
And sometimes.
Parents are doing that on social
media 'cause they don't understand
how dangerous it really is.
Yes.
I think that's a totally fair warning.
It's something we all
have to keep in mind.
'cause to your point, the, if you don't
understand the technology, you've,
you pointed out to me off camera that
there's, you know, information that you
have no idea you're giving away whether.
the GPS mm-hmm.
Like location, your, you know, your
children can be found, right, like
literally where they are because
they have, you know, certain things
turned on, which, which will allow
a predator to take advantage.
And it's not a matter of scaring
people, it's a matter of just being
honest that these things exist.
I like your analogy of you
just, you're not dropping them
off in a, in a dangerous area
and just hoping for the best.
You have to be cognizant and
aware of these things so you
can make better decisions.
Um,
and when you consider that
children up to the age of 11 and
12, still believe in Santa Claus.
Okay.
They're not, they're
children, they're naive.
They don't understand how
dangerous this world is.
It's doing them a disservice
if we don't educate them.
Now, I also don't wanna raise kids to be
like fearful, but they don't believe us.
They don't, you know, my, my
25-year-old daughter when she was
about 16, she's like, mom, getting
raped is not in my life plan.
And I'm like, yeah, most people,
it's not in their life plan,
but you know what I mean.
Like, they dunno what they don't know.
And that's where they need parents.
Yes.
Yes.
I have to add one more element to
this, uh, if you don't mind, Donnah,
but it's that, you know, just like
we have to be aware of predators.
I think we have to remember too that I,
when I grew up, I had a game boy, right?
And it was the green game Boy, it
wasn't, you know, eventually they
had the color stuff and that was,
that was where it had the wow factor.
But my point is it very basic, right?
And I think now we have to remember that
these games and things are addictive.
They're not like the old.
Oh, you're just, you know, playing a
fun game and you're playing Tetris.
It's not like that anymore.
You know, these game developers and
the YouTube videos are all optimized to
hold attention for as long as possible.
And I think, um, again, I'm not gonna
go down this rabbit hole of medication
and things, but I think sometimes.
People can, um, diagnose problems that
might exist due to attention span issues
when, you know, again, the reality is
if they're putting their face in front
of some addictive game and some video
that's optimized to watch, you know,
when do, uh, your, your eyes shift and
okay, let's make sure we optimize the
next video so people's eyes don't shift
and they stay on screen the whole time.
Right?
That has an effect on our
brains, especially when
these, these young children.
And so I think you just have
to be aware, as you said.
What are they watching?
What are you, you know,
controlling that you're watching?
Mm-hmm.
I'll just share very briefly,
um, just like you mentioned,
your, your son was able to get
connections with people, right?
I think technology's beautiful
'cause it can have connections.
When my children, we do actually
have an iPad somewhere in the room,
they, it's almost never charged.
The only thing that we have
on that iPad is FaceTime.
Um, and the kids love
calling their grandparents.
That's literally the way that
they think of their iPad.
And so, um, it's things like this where
we can actually use it for those things.
And you might find, you went back to
the using pencil and paper, right?
Like, you know, my kids, luckily
they're, they're always drawing.
They're making me new cards.
Everything is analog
at this age for them.
Because I want them to
have that creativity.
I don't want them to have that super
short attention span that unfortunately,
I think too many children nowadays have
because they, their brains have been
opt, I mean, essentially the things
and that they're taking in have been
optimized to hold their attention.
And then you wonder why.
You know, they're not listening
to the teacher in class.
They can't watch a, a two hour movie
or an hour and a half long movie
without trying to pull out a phone.
You know, it, it, it's just, these
are things that I think we have
to take some accountability for
as parents, but eat their own.
But, but you know,
we have to teach our children
to function in this world.
So when you go out to a restaurant
to eat, don't get your phones out.
Yeah, like at what point I've had
most of my major appointments,
part of the recruitment process
has been sitting at a table, eating
a meal and having a conversation.
How are our kids gonna be
successful if they can't do that?
Similarly, you know, we, and
sometimes all I wanna do is eat
my dinner and watch my TV show,
but as a parent, I have to teach
my children how to interact.
And communication and
conversation is important.
And yes, you might have a nice
dinner quietly, but if you know.
The reality is how are you preparing
these children for the future?
And guess what?
Ai, what we are experiencing now
in AI is this much of where it's
going to be if children aren't
asking questions, posing ideas,
talking things through with you.
How are they going to learn?
How are they gonna be
able to sift things out?
And so, yeah, it is, it, it,
it, it requires us to parent.
Oh, I love that lesson.
I love that.
I, I always use the, the thought or
the idea of just, you have to get
uncomfortable with this comfort or
you get comfortable with change.
Like the fact that the only thing that's
not gonna change is the fact that,
that there's always gonna be change.
Right.
You, you really have to
prepare them for this.
And as you said at the
beginning, there used to be a,
I'm gonna work this job, right?
I, you know, this job is now
gonna help pay for my children's
education, things like this, right?
I'm gonna have, um, you know,
all these extra benefits.
That's not the case in the future,
at least what we think and or
at least what I think, I guess.
But the, the point is, how
do you prepare them to be
flexible, to be changing?
Maybe they change their
jobs more frequently.
Maybe they start in multiple
different com companies, right?
I mean, all these things
have to be, um, you know.
How are you preparing your children
to essentially, um, problem solve and
live in a very dynamic world, which,
which I kind of assume it will become.
Research indicates that our
kids will work for maybe five
different jobs Okay, gone are.
My grandfather worked at the
same company for 50 years.
Gone are those days for a
myriad of reasons that we
don't have time to dig into.
But the reality is, is one of the
biggest shifts I've seen, and I
don't think I'm that old, um, is.
The shift is that that life
is full of ups and downs.
A rich, glorious life is
full of ups and downs.
You can have great days and
you're gonna have bad days.
People are gonna die,
babies are gonna be born.
You are going to feel
a myriad of emotions.
So you need, we need to teach
our kids that the ups and downs
of life are normal and no one's
ever gonna be happy all the time.
Happy is not smiling and dancing.
Happy is going today i'm sad.
I miss my mom.
That's okay.
But I'll get through this.
And one of the biggest challenges
we face in education is saying
to parents, your children need
to experience disappointment.
They need to experience when things
are hard, they need to experience
the consequences of their choices.
No, no one wants a child to suffer.
No one is going to penalize or or
punish a child to watch them suffer.
No one wants that.
But sometimes no teaches
someone a lot more than yes.
And I would challenge us to
find an adult in this world
who's not been told no.
At least once a week.
I worry for the future of our kids
when they're getting to 10, 12.
And they've never experienced
a setback or a challenge.
I, I do.
And and that's the one thing back to,
they don't need you to be their friend.
They need you to parent them.
Yes.
Yes.
Now you've been very generous
with your time, Donnah.
I just have sort of one.
Question, uh, around Thailand
to go quickly back to Thailand.
Um, when you think about the time you've
spent here, right, um, we as foreigners,
right, are individuals that are here
for, uh, you know, not Thai nationals,
not, um, you know, I'm just curious,
is there anything that we can learn
from Thai people or from Thailand?
So much.
Thailand is such a beautiful country
and it is a beautiful culture.
And starting, I think there's
that one thing that sits under.
So many transactions in this
country is that notion of respect.
You know, you look at respect for
elders, even the young children are
taught that, not that, I dunno what
it's called, but that respect to
elders, respect to land, respect to the
environment, respect for each other.
It really does sit at
the heart of it and.
At Ascot, we actually took that
notion and, and embedded it
as one of our school values,
Namjai, which means water, heart.
And that was something I learned in
Thailand, that there's a word in the
Thai culture that means acknowledge that
everything comes from a living source
and work and protect that living source.
I love that because think about what
we need to teach our kids and our
community and the world and what we
need to do to make this world better.
It's a, it's a very.
Underpinning peace
within the Thai culture.
And, and so, yeah, for me,
that's probably what I'll
take away with me the most.
Yes.
I love that.
Uh, now if another woman was
about to step in your shoes, uh,
they were moving to Bangkok, they
were gonna work in education or
leadership, what advice would you
tell them that nobody told you?
I think it's find your tribe.
It, it really is, you know, I think.
The work's, the work, the
work's, the easy part.
You were hired or we were hired
because we can do the work.
The challenge in any new position,
particularly internationally, is learn
the context and that is fundamental
and you will only learn the context
if you can surround yourself by
a trusted group of people who are
gonna tell it to you how it is.
And, you know, I found
that with AustCham.
I found a really wonderful group
of people to guide me through that.
And, and I'm gonna go out there on a
limb and say I was successful in my
role because of that tribe of people.
Um, however, if it's not that,
join a group, join a, a women's
group or a. Female leaders.
You know, I'm also part
of a female heads group.
Um, I'm also got, it doesn't have to be
gender based, but find a tribe of people
who you can go help me navigate this.
Because every training
I've had, it's not working.
What's going to work for me?
Because at the end of the
day, we have to deliver.
And if we can't work with the people
we have, we're not delivering.
So I think find a tribe
or a brain's trust.
And hook in.
What?
Great advice.
Now, with that said, Donnah, um, I
know you're gonna be very busy with
this move, moving your family, uh,
going into a new country, right?
It's gonna be a busy time for you,
but assuming that someone does wanna
reach out to you 'cause something
really resonate with them, what's the
best way for them to get in touch?
Definitely.
And LinkedIn's probably
the only consistent thing.
Um, so message me on LinkedIn.
Um, I'm there and honestly, I
may not answer straight away.
I'm not the best at being on that,
but I will get back to you and if
I don't message again, I'm all,
I always love a good reminder
and we will remember that.
What we'll do first is we'll go
ahead and ask you, can I get a
discount on an international school?
That'll be the first, uh, uh, DM
messages that you start receiving.
And my, my response will be, well,
not at my school in Italy, but maybe
go and talk to a school in Thailand.
Uh, alright Donnah, well thank
you so much again for your time.
I really appreciate it.
I've always, uh, appreciated
our relationship and all the
value you provide, so I wish you
and your family all the best.
It's, it's been a pleasure to get to
know you and, and, uh, thank you for,
uh, really teaching us so much today.
So
thank you and I'm honored to be asked.
Um, thanks Scott.
Sure.
Bye.