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This is a show for burnt-out fashion designers (and TDs, PDs, patternmakers and beyond) who want more flexibility while still doing work they love. As a freelance fashion designer, you can build your fashion career on your own terms. Freelancing in fashion is the only way to get freedom in your day (instead of being tied to a desk). Whether you want to earn extra money on the side, fund your fashion brand, or replace your salary, the FDGP podcast will help you get there. Listen in for actionable tips and strategies to kickstart or grow your career as a freelance fashion designer, build your confidence, and create the life you want. Hosted by $100k+ fashion freelancer Sew Heidi, the show features interviews and strategy sessions with successful freelance fashion designers from around the world who've ditched toxic fashion jobs and taken control of their own destinies. This is the only place to get REAL insights from REAL freelancers who have built REAL careers on their own terms. (Formerly the Successful Fashion Freelancer podcast.)
Heidi [00:00:00]:
After working in corporate fashion in New York City for over a decade, Natalie Kraska was burnt out. She had spent more than 10 years designing men's sportswear for stores like Sam's, TJ Maxx, and other discount retailers. After getting a taste of remote work during COVID, she did not want to go back. So she jumped into my program fast and leaned full force into freelancing to build a new life for herself. She is now working with multiple clients doing seventies eighties inspired women's wear. Talk about a serious 180. She is so happy doing this work. And in our conversation today, she shares how she got her clients, some sourcing red flags to look out for, how she sets her prices, and so much more.
Heidi [00:00:37]:
You're going to love this episode. Let's get to it. I cannot wait to hear about all the things. So many exciting things to talk about. I have all the the email you sent me with all the notes and stuff. But I guess I kinda wanna start at the beginning because you mentioned that, like, even back in 2011, when you graduated fashion school, you wanted to be a freelancer, but it was frowned upon
Natalie Kraska [00:01:04]:
Yeah.
Heidi [00:01:04]:
The air quote, you know, certain traits that millennials are stereotyped with. Like, tell I wanna hear about that initial, like, time in your life and where you were thinking and and all that stuff. What you were thinking?
Natalie Kraska [00:01:20]:
To be honest, when I graduated from school back in 2011, so it was, like, still very much the recession. It was hard to get a job. Everybody, I feel like, was very competitive. I mean, our industry is I think a lot of industries are are always competitive, but, especially during that time, it was really hard. I lived in Ohio. I went to college in Ohio. I grew up there. I went to Penn State.
Natalie Kraska [00:01:47]:
So that already, like, I feel like is a bit of a a struggle just to break into the New York fashion industry because if you don't go to FIT or Parsons, it makes it a little bit harder. Mhmm. But I did have an internship in New York over a summer, and there were people that worked there that wanted to see good people in the industry, and they just really pushed for me and helped me get lots of interviews. I ended up delivering pizzas after college because I couldn't find a job for, like, 2 years after college. And, one day, I was literally on a run delivering a pizza, and, an old boss from my internship 2 years prior called me, and he's like, I'm starting a men's division at an existing, junior's company. We do move out to New York, but the catch is you have to be here this week. And so and we're, like yeah. I I literally got back from that pizza run.
Natalie Kraska [00:02:50]:
I told my manager, she's, like, you have to go. Obviously, you need to go. Like, this is your dream. Like, this is a big deal. She's like, forget about your 2 weeks. You gotta go. So I jumped on a mega bus and came out to New York with pretty much nothing, which was I like, I kinda just jumped. And when I got here, I was like, what did I do? Oh my gosh.
Natalie Kraska [00:03:09]:
I'm terrified. But, yeah, I kinda early on, I even before that, I had kind of been like, I want I wanna be a freelancer. Like, I know graphic designers that do this. And everyone was kinda like, no. You've you've gotta, like, do the corporate thing. So I was like, okay. You know, I'm gonna give it a try. First job, it was just me and the the head designer.
Natalie Kraska [00:03:34]:
So I was like, you know, newbie, like, didn't, you know, we so we had to hire freelancers to kind of help us jump start this division. Freelancers were doing exactly what I wanted to do. And I was so jealous of their lifestyle and like they were jet setting and like, you know, like they had this freedom that I was just super envious of. And I learned over time to listen to that sort of inner voice, but at the time, I was just like, that could never be me. They're so outgoing. Some of them had not even gone to fashion school. They were just like that, like, really extroverted type of personality. And I just figured it couldn't be me that I had to, like, suck it up and, like, you know, I'll never be, like, that sales y person that's able to, like, go out and, like, advocate for myself.
Natalie Kraska [00:04:25]:
So, so, yeah, so I basically stuck it out in corporate for about a decade, a little over a decade. So I was in men's wear for about 10 years. And then, I was pretty much getting to the point of burnout. I was like, I don't know what's next. I couldn't see myself being a creative director or, like, moving on to that sort of role in the industry, but I didn't know what to do. I think the pandemic sort of hit at the right time for me to get a, like, a reality check, because like everybody else, I kind of reevaluated my life and what's important and that sort of thing, which I think everyone did. But during that time, I also found your podcast. And at that time, we were doing a lot of, just being about being a designer, which I found interesting, but then I came came across that you had just a few podcasts at that time about, being a freelancer.
Natalie Kraska [00:05:20]:
And the fact that you had put it out into the world and, like, you know, strengthen numbers sort of situation where someone else says you can do this in in this area of industry, then I felt like I actually could. So for the first time, I kinda was, like, the wheels were turning, and I was, at the same time, dreading going back full time to the office. And, I felt like I wasn't going anywhere, but at the same time didn't really wanna look for another job in corporate. So, like, it all kind of, like, made sense, but still took a couple years to, like, really take that leap into, you know, actually freelancing full time and, like, really committing to it, because it's scary. Yeah. So, about it was, I think, 2020 yeah. It was May 2022. So I've been listening to your podcast for, like, 2 years at this point.
Natalie Kraska [00:06:14]:
I've been thinking about it. I've taken your class. I think I signed up for a class in 2021. So it was just before you made the switch to being, like, fully focused on freelance. Yeah. So I kinda still let that simmer because I was scared. Even my husband was like, look. We're, you know, we're in an we're we're in a fine place.
Natalie Kraska [00:06:35]:
Like, you could you could quit your job and just, like, go for this. And I'm like, no. No. No. I want, like, something lined up. So I did have, like, a couple gigs on the side for a while, but nothing really panned out until, like, a really serious client. I did all the pitching, and I I feel like that I think that works for a lot of people. That didn't really work for me, so I just kind of planted a lot of different seeds.
Natalie Kraska [00:07:03]:
Ultimately, I kinda got my start on Upwork, which is a whole different conversation. Oh, no. We we still have
Heidi [00:07:11]:
that conversation. I wanna hear.
Natalie Kraska [00:07:15]:
But, yeah, I feel like I was just rambling about. But, yeah, pretty much, that got me my first client. I got, all 3 of my clients, different ways. So, one came from Upwork, one came from LinkedIn, and one came from your group. Yeah. Yeah. And the one that came from your group almost felt like faith because I had had like I said, I had, several different client situations. And like I also said, Upwork is another story.
Natalie Kraska [00:07:50]:
But one actually had just fired me that day, and I got the discovery call with, from somebody who posted in your group saying, this designer, classic rock couture, is looking for a freelancer, and I, emailed my resume to her portfolio, but also I reached out to her on Instagram as well because I was like, oh my gosh. We have so much in common. I love music as well. It very much influences my designs. I love vintage. At the time, I really only had a mentor portfolio. I was thinking that that was gonna be my niche because that had been my niche my entire career. And I was like, you know what? I'm not really having a lot of luck with the menswear thing since I've been trying to be a freelancer, and I'm like, not I just, like, really never thought about doing a different niche, but I sort of fell into this one into, like, a vintage, sort of seventies eighties, niche, which was, like, completely by accident.
Natalie Kraska [00:08:55]:
I landed the the gig with, Classic Rock Couture from your group, which, I've been working with her for, like, 2 years now. And then, someone reached out to me on LinkedIn saying I'm in the finance side of fashion. I wanna start a brand, and I need help. And I found your profile on here because it says you're a freelancer. And I met with her. She lives in New York City, and she it just so happened that she was doing a 70 slash eighties vintage fee wear line. Oh my gosh. So, so I was, like, that sounds like a really good fit for me.
Natalie Kraska [00:09:31]:
Yeah. And it really that one really worked out too because we can, like, meet in person and we can, like, switch off samples. But I've also met in person my other client multiple times now, gone to magic with her and just yeah. I mean, I couldn't be happier.
Heidi [00:09:50]:
Yeah. Okay. I have so many questions. So let's, I wanna clarify something that I think is really interesting that I feel like could really get skipped over by people listening. We'll start with I wanna talk through each client. So we'll start with, Classic Rock Couture, which you found through the Fast Community Group, is the one you're Yeah. Team. And so you said that you emailed her your portfolio and your resume, but you also fall sent her a message on Instagram that sounds like it was a lot more of a personal lean of, like, hey, I just really love what you're doing.
Heidi [00:10:26]:
And I think that we have a lot in common, and my designs are really influenced by music as well. And I feel like that tiny little extra, like, touch point and connection where you're expressing I always say to people, like, when you express true genuine excitement and passion for, like, the brand's project, they can feel it. And I gotta believe that, like, you guys, like, clicked because of that emotion and excitement that you had. So I wanna highlight that you did that. So then you got on a discovery call with her and remind me, I know you said you were in men's, but what was what was the genre that you did for 10 years? The category?
Natalie Kraska [00:11:03]:
It was young men. So it was very much like Sam's Club and Walmart, and, like, TJ Maxx, Marshalls, like, the Disney, like, that sort of thing.
Heidi [00:11:11]:
It was nothing like this seventies rock. Rocking. Okay. So you have completely transformed the category that you worked in based off of your corporate career.
Natalie Kraska [00:11:21]:
Which is also something that I feel like people always said you couldn't do. Like, even if I ever had that thought if I ever had that thought, I'm like, well, I kinda wanna, like, see what it's like to work in women's wear. I wanna maybe try kids. And people are like, you can't do that without starting over. Well, you can.
Heidi [00:11:38]:
What sort of portfolio did you have to send to that the woman from Classic Rock Couture?
Natalie Kraska [00:11:44]:
Okay. So, this is also something I kind of took from you, but I kind of put my own spin on it in a way in order to try to, like, land clients. So when the the pitching thing wasn't really, like, transpiring, like I said, I went to Upwork. And what I did, because I didn't have anything but my resume portfolio, which I had reworked based on, like, the class I took, of yours, and I made sure it was, like, really good. So I spent so much time on it. I'm like, okay. I don't really have a portfolio. So kind of in order to, like, put my feelers out there and try to get gigs on Upwork, I would go on there and see what jobs looked interesting to me.
Natalie Kraska [00:12:26]:
And then I would kind of try to frame it in my mind, like, they had hired me for, like, a trial project or a small thing. And so I built these mini portfolios, which mini portfolios are kinda something that you suggested. I would go through and I would be like, okay. Is there anything from my men's wear that I could kinda tweak to, like that would fit their vibe, that would really, fit in with their brand? And, like, I had things like I did a lot of, seamless prints and textile design and things like that. So a lot of that was able to be easily tweaked with colors and things like that to kinda fit into whatever category it was. But, I mean, I didn't up like, I didn't do this for everything, but, like, when it was something that I was, like, who do a really fun project and that really interests me, I would sort of do this, like, mini a few page of, like, usually I would sketch something. I would do, like, a CAD. I would do something kinda technical in there where, you know, with my if I were a print, I would do all my callouts with my Pantones and the size and, you know, all of those things to kind of give them a idea of what I'm capable of, but, like, I kept it really brief and, like, directly to them.
Natalie Kraska [00:13:43]:
So, I did probably 15 of those, like 15? Don't know. Like, I have a bunch. Like, I have a whole folder. But, I mean and some of them did trip. I ran into conversations. I mean, I was also, at the same time, speaking my pitches on Upwork, and there were certain things that I think helped there too. So I like, over time and, of course, you started to build a reputation on Upwork where you have, like, had clients before, so that makes people interested. But, so it it did work to get interest, but even the ones that didn't pan out or people weren't interested or I didn't get a gig from it, I still have those portfolios, and I've been also able to then tweak those.
Natalie Kraska [00:14:30]:
However, if I'm applying to something else, and they're small enough that and, like, you know, you don't need a lot to be, like, to the point for some of these people. So, I kind of did that, and that's what I showed, when I showed classic rock couture. I don't even remember honestly what exactly I showed her. I'd have to look through I think they had some, like I did some sort of, like, repeat embroidery design because she does, like, I've never done embroidery before, but I kinda treated it like print designs
Heidi [00:15:01]:
Yeah.
Natalie Kraska [00:15:02]:
And, kinda laid it out that way. And I, like, knew she, like, she was interested in that. You know, obviously, like, seventies vibe has a a certain vibe. She has, like, a west western influence as well. So from going to her website, I was able to see, like, what kind of stuff she would be into. And so I kind of, like, did, like, inspiration board, and I think it was almost, like, something based off of, like, a 3 people design, but I did my own, like, embroidery, and I made, like, an embroidery legend for it. Like, I kinda tried to make it look like it was a project that I had worked on in the past. Yeah.
Natalie Kraska [00:15:36]:
So, I know that was one thing I sent to her. I can't remember what else, but there was like, it was one of those mini portfolios I ended up sending her. And, she didn't obviously tell me this at the time, and I've gotten this from, several clients now, but she hired me and some other people to test out, which I think is really common. I think, as, you know, you're, hiring people, that's a smart idea to, like, you know, hire a handful of people for a test project. And so, I didn't know it, but I was being hired for a test project. And, I think the first time I got on the phone with her, she was like, look. I'm gonna be completely honest. I didn't just hire you, but I I just wanna work with you now.
Heidi [00:16:21]:
After you did the initial test project or right away just from the mini portfolio that you
Natalie Kraska [00:16:25]:
had submitted? I think after the test project. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So it was enough to land me that, and I think that that's really common because my keyword client told me the same thing.
Heidi [00:16:37]:
Okay. Okay. So to understand correctly, you had done all these mini self directed portfolios for these Upwork opportunities. Then when you were going to submit your pro portfolio to Classic Rock Couture, you took one of those projects and you said, okay. This looks similar. Let me just revamp it a little bit, so it looks even more like her brand. And that's so you they're fairly personalized, but you're just kinda reworking stuff you already have. You're not building completely from scratch.
Natalie Kraska [00:17:06]:
Correct. I I at least try to pull something from what I already have. Maybe I'll add some here and there, but, like, I don't spend more than a few hours on it. Nothing crazy, and only a few pages.
Heidi [00:17:17]:
Okay. I'd love to And then
Natalie Kraska [00:17:18]:
if they wanna see more, I can share more that's, like Yeah. Slightly less relevant, but I'm, like, kinda, like, I I phrase it, like, oh, this is the work that I have that I feel like is most relevant to you. So that they know that, like, it's not the only work I have, but, like, also it doesn't overwhelm.
Heidi [00:17:34]:
Yeah. Totally. I'd love to include some of those in the show notes if you have a couple examples of these mini portfolios that we could share. That would be awesome. Yeah. Okay. So then and then you went through the test project with Classic Rock Couture, and she was very pleased, and you got the gig.
Natalie Kraska [00:17:50]:
Yeah.
Heidi [00:17:51]:
And was is that your very first client?
Natalie Kraska [00:17:54]:
Well, like I said, like, I had a bunch of little ones in between.
Heidi [00:17:59]:
Is that the Upwork stuff?
Natalie Kraska [00:18:01]:
Yeah. And I feel like I'll just say this about Upwork. I mean, I I know you said it before that you've gotten missed reviews on it. I mean, I have my I think my very first client was the school that I worked with. From there that still continued to be a client. But all those other ones, like, the one that I said, like, you fired me, it's like I feel like a lot of people on Upwork, I mean, as you know, there's, like, lots of stereotypes in our industry. One of them being that, like, fashion is silly and fun and, like, I can just start a brand. You know? Like and I think a lot of people are not totally serious on there, or they just don't understand construction, and then they feel frustrated when, like, you're like, look.
Natalie Kraska [00:18:44]:
This construction is impossible, and they're like they fight you on it. And I'm like, I'm not trying to, like, push my ideas on you. I'm just trying you know, like, I'm trying to make it a a product that works on a product itself. And there that's what I ran into on Upwork. Either people weren't serious. Luckily, like, they have the structure of Upwork is if the person doesn't pay, Upwork still pays you. I had a situation like that. Mhmm.
Natalie Kraska [00:19:09]:
And and then I had a situation where, like, the guy just, like, thought I was, like, trying to change his designs when his construction ideas just didn't make sense. So he just kinda, like it's like people just hop on there, like, oh, I have some money saved up. I'm gonna do this. Like, they just don't they're not and sometimes they either fall off of it or, like, they just have unrealistic expectations. So that's what I ran into with Upwork several times. Mhmm.
Heidi [00:19:36]:
Yeah. And I I've heard that story many times, and I think that there is plenty of that on Upwork. You know, we do have students, and I'm sure you've listened to their podcast, who have gotten great success and it's worked out. I think it Yeah. It's possible. I think you churn through a lot to get those good ones.
Natalie Kraska [00:19:54]:
For sure. For sure.
Heidi [00:19:56]:
Okay. So she came Clasa Rock Couture came from the fast community, which I love. Makes me so happy. I hear there's quite a few people who are like, I've landed some of my best clients from the community, which is really cool how much opportunity gets shared throughout there. So it's amazing. And then tell us tell us about the school thing that you do because I I know you said this one's a little bit random and how that came to fruition.
Natalie Kraska [00:20:19]:
I I I technically consider the school my first client because they're the first one that's really even though, like, several years before that, I started getting gigs. Like, I call those more gigs, I guess. Okay. But as far as my first client goes, I think that was the school. So I quit my job in May 2022, and I had a family vacation shortly after that. So, like, early June, I think it was. And, I was, like, on the beach on my laptop, like, trying to, like, find jobs on Upwork at the same time because I was just feel like I was panicked about not having a job. So I was, like, you know, really trying to, like, make things work, and I was like, okay.
Natalie Kraska [00:21:01]:
You know, I don't wanna go back to corporate. And I saw this thing that it wasn't something I ever thought that I would do, but, like, I was like, this sounds interesting. There's a school in Brooklyn. They're like and it it also sounded interesting because it wasn't a traditional fashion program. They're like, look, we wanna start a program, a fashion design program, that's more like a trade school situation where they truly learn tricks of the trade rather than, like, all of the fluff that you learn and and and, like, that's great. That's like like, fashion school's great, but, like, there is a lot of fluff, and there is a lot of not talking about what you will actually come across in in the industry. So I was like, that sounds awesome. Like, I would love to be like, that sounds like making a curriculum for that would be great.
Natalie Kraska [00:21:52]:
At the time, I was like, I never I never even thought about teaching, and I was like, I would never do that. And I I mean, it just didn't even cross my mind. I was like, they're hiring me to, like, create the the slide deck and, like, organize it and do all that. So I was like, yeah. That was great. It was a lot. Going into it, I was like, oh my gosh. Like, how are we gonna cram into 1 year a 1 year program all the highlights and everything that you need to learn in fashion school? We weren't teaching sewing, but you also have to teach construction without teaching sewing, which is another challenge.
Natalie Kraska [00:22:31]:
And then, I told them it was, like, a huge massive undertaking. Like, I I don't think that they realized, how how much goes into a fashion program, and so they hired someone for the creative side as well. She ended up ended up being one of my favorite people. One of the things that people say about freelancing is, like, don't you miss having coworkers? And absolutely not because I work with some amazing, amazing people and my my, co teacher being one of them, but she ended up taking over sort of the creative side of things. So teaching, like, how to put a collection together and, like, more of the creative aspect from the design side, like, from the whole design side as a whole where as I teach, like, tech packs production, like, what you both with color approvals, all of that kind of stuff. So, basically, I created the curriculum, all through Upwork, like, you know, passing everything off to them through Upwork. And, then they asked me to get on the phone with them and they asked me to teach, the the, technical side of the program. And, I, like, wasn't sure if that's something I wanted to do, to be honest.
Heidi [00:23:39]:
So first, they hired you just to create the curriculum. That was the original job agreement.
Natalie Kraska [00:23:46]:
Yep.
Heidi [00:23:46]:
Okay. And then they said, we want you to actually teach.
Natalie Kraska [00:23:49]:
Yes. Okay. So I was like, well, this is kind of an interesting situation though because it's also, it's in Borough Park in Brooklyn, which is a very, orthodox Jewish community. And the reason the school saw such a gap, was because a lot of people in that community start small businesses. They're almost like a lot of the clients that we end up landing in, in freelance. There's they start businesses without fashion background or fashion education, and they don't really know how to work at factories. A lot of them, a lot of them get on Zoom calls and just dictate their designs and and the factory will draw them. Like, I've heard this so many times, but, like, basically, they don't know how to create tech packs or even communicate with them or anything like that.
Natalie Kraska [00:24:41]:
So they wanted to bring some of those skills into their community because, there was a big gap for that. And, I mean, I get girls of all levels, but some of them are people that already own their own business and want to actually learn, correctly how to how to deal with these things and situations. And then some of them are girls, but, like, are very, very young, just starting out in their career and think they wanna go into fashion and maybe work with some of these brands. Some of them even want to actually go into the industry. One of my students currently, has a, internship at Oscar de la Renta with one of my friends. I didn't hook her up or anything. It's just What? So yeah. So, it's all over the place, but it's really cool because I love learning about other cultures.
Natalie Kraska [00:25:29]:
And so it was like, this is such a unique situation. I'm gonna try it out. And I've been doing that now for I've been teaching. This is the I've done almost through 3 classes now. So there's different groups of girls. So it's been, like, almost 2 years on that. Yeah.
Heidi [00:25:49]:
And do you is this all in person teaching or online?
Natalie Kraska [00:25:53]:
So I do one right now. It's, a like a combination. I don't know if we're gonna go eventually to fully online, but, the first class was in person. I have an in person and an online right now.
Heidi [00:26:06]:
Okay. Gotcha. Okay. They came from Upwork?
Natalie Kraska [00:26:09]:
Yeah.
Heidi [00:26:10]:
So one good one out of Upwork.
Natalie Kraska [00:26:13]:
Yeah.
Heidi [00:26:14]:
And, but kind of a non traditional set up, as far as like a freelance client. But still, like a base and something that's ongoing. Okay. So you've got, classic rock Couture, and then your teaching gig, and then you've got what is it called? Snow globe? Yeah. Snow globe.
Natalie Kraska [00:26:31]:
Snow globe.
Heidi [00:26:32]:
Yeah. Okay. And this is the seventies, eighties skiwear line, which I feel like aesthetically falls perfectly within your sort of your vibe.
Natalie Kraska [00:26:44]:
For sure. Like, I feel like one of the things that, like, I you kinda have to be careful of with the niches, even though it's, like, really good to have a niche. I feel like, it can be you don't wanna, like, step on anyone's toes. Like, you don't want, like, one of your clients to kinda compete with the other client. So, like, I think being that they're, like, separate even though they're the same aesthetic, it's like like, my my my client, classic rock couture that's in Arizona, like, she's not gonna do ski suits.
Heidi [00:27:14]:
Right. It's very different.
Natalie Kraska [00:27:15]:
Not really in her in her vibe. And, so, you know, it works out in that way. So I was trying to, like, think about that with with when I'm thinking about taking on a client too because I don't wanna I don't wanna be in the situation where they're like, hey. I love this, and it's, like, the same inspiration the other client gave me. And it's just like, oh, I don't want, like, anyone to think that of the or to even do it accidentally. You know? Like, I don't know. So yeah. So that was kinda crazy because she just, reached out to me on LinkedIn.
Natalie Kraska [00:27:50]:
And normally, you know, you get some weird stuff on LinkedIn, but, like, sometimes you just have to look at your gut, and I was just kinda like, this person's normal. And, yeah, that's been interesting because, there have been some hurdles with that. When I first met with her, she had already found the factory, and she had found this factory through one of her friends who has a line, and her friend's line is an evening wear. So it could not be more different than sea wear. So at first, I was like, uh-oh. I don't know that you wanna work on a factory that, like, you know, says something totally different. But, you know, I'm sharing something, like, let's let's try this out. So they seemed they seemed good.
Natalie Kraska [00:28:36]:
Like, our samples came in, and they were really, really nice, and we're, like, alright. Like, made these comments. We're, like, ready to move on to the next step. Like, let's get a second round of samples and then hopefully make the order from that. So we were set to, like, launch the line last year. And, so basically, what happened was the backrestaurant goes to her. Oh. And, yeah, because I guess, like, they just got overwhelmed with the fact that it was seawear and not evening wear.
Natalie Kraska [00:29:06]:
They are like, I don't know if we could handle this, like, but they, like, I don't know, took the language barrier or something. Like, it wasn't like, it took a while to, like, realize that that was, like, what was going on. So, you know, with skewer, it's like a seasonal thing, so it pushed our launch back and we had to find you know, she had to find another factory. And, now we're, like, rolling again and, you know, like, we have a new factory and but we had to start over with the prototypes and and fitting them and, like, you know, outerwear is not simple simple garments. So, so, yeah, we kinda had to start the process all over. So that's been interesting to, just but, like, you know, you find out a lot about the business side. I feel like working with freelance, like, you get a little bit more hands on in that, where you're, like, see some of the the struggles that people go through when launching brands or building brands. It was I like about it.
Natalie Kraska [00:30:04]:
Yeah.
Heidi [00:30:04]:
I mean, it's very different than working at an established corporate brand where, like, especially, I don't know what the size of the brands that you worked out were, but, like, often times
Natalie Kraska [00:30:12]:
Small and medium.
Heidi [00:30:14]:
Okay. They were small. So you were still more hands on Right. Than, like, working at a big brand where, like, you know, maybe sourcing is, like, completely separate department. Right. But you just every their supply chain was already established. And so I imagine within reason, and you just the the problems and the experiences were different than with these small startups that are starting from the first time.
Natalie Kraska [00:30:41]:
Yeah. Yeah. We even had I I well, something I really wanted to talk about because I, like I told everyone in the group when this happened because, I want people to be really careful that, I mean, scams exist everywhere. Mhmm. We got on a call, together with a factory that I had found, and I feel bad that I had found it. I think I found them on Maker's Row. So I found them on, like, a website that people use Yeah. All the time.
Natalie Kraska [00:31:07]:
And I, you know, checked their Google reviews. I didn't wanna read through them extensively, but I'm like, oh, they have 4 and a half stars. And we got on the phone we got a a call. They didn't show any video, but it was, like, a a call. And she answered all of my questions that were very industry specific, like, asking about their machinery because, like, obviously, like, the problem we ran into is that those the last people weren't set up to do outerwear, so I wanted to make sure all of these things. And she was, like, on top of it. And, they were like, yeah. We're we're like an all inclusive.
Natalie Kraska [00:31:42]:
Like, like, I feel like this is almost a red flag now when a factory is like, yeah. We're all inclusive. We do, like, all of the things. Like, we source. We can provide design. We can do all of these things. I don't know. That's kind of a red flag to me now.
Natalie Kraska [00:31:56]:
But, anyway, I mean, I could be wrong. Like, there are probably companies out there that do that that are legitimate, but also their prices were, like, almost too good to be true. And it seemed but other than that, it, like, it seemed pretty normal, until my client was like, yeah. There's somebody, like, getting really pushy about payment. And I was like, okay. That is a major red flag. Let's stop. And I looked through the Google reviews, and, like, some of the ones that were, like, towards, like, the bottom, like, kinda covered up by the 5 star reviews, were people, like, saying it was a scam.
Natalie Kraska [00:32:31]:
And I was like, yeah. No. And I felt so bad because I barely knew my client at that time. Oh, yeah. But, yeah. Like, I mean, you need to be really careful. And, like, when you're looking for factories, whether it's, like, for your own brand or for your client's brand, like, you really need to go through the Google, the Yelp reviews, and, like, read all of them. And if there are, like of course, there are people that just complain for, like, you know, there are always bad reviews on on good companies, but, like, use your judgment, like, if it's something that, like, this there's, like, several one star saying it's a scam or, you know, they never gave you a product or something like that, like, grump.
Heidi [00:33:10]:
Yeah. I saw Maker's Row kind of vetted a little bit. Maybe not I
Natalie Kraska [00:33:15]:
I yeah. I thought they were yeah. I don't know. I don't know what someone has to go through to get on there. But I do know that my factory that I found for my own project was on the CFDA website. Okay. So I came across they have, like, a really extensive list on there, and a lot of those, FIT used to have a trade show where they had, like, a lot of suppliers. A lot of those, are factories from there.
Natalie Kraska [00:33:43]:
Mhmm. That list seems to be really legitimate. I actually reached out to them to see, like, how they put that list together because what I what I experienced at Maker's Row, which I thought was, like, you know, a safe source. Yeah. But they didn't respond. But I, I mean, I feel like CFDA is generally a pretty good resource for designers. So and, everyone that I talked to, we we vetted, like, 5 or 6 factories from there, and they seemed they seemed like there weren't weren't any, like, weird red flags. Obviously, certain ones were a better fit for us, but, I mean, I I felt like there was good luck with that list.
Natalie Kraska [00:34:20]:
So Yeah. I'd recommend that to people if you're looking for factories.
Heidi [00:34:24]:
That's an amazing resource because I didn't know CFDA had a resource a a list like that. So that's awesome. Thank you for sharing, and I'm glad you caught those red flags. I feel like you you mentioned at the very beginning of the our conversation, like, listen to your intuition, listen to your gut, and like, if something is like, no, this is too good to be true, or I don't know, something doesn't feel good, like, do some more research
Natalie Kraska [00:34:46]:
on that. And that's like, if someone is pushing with you, you know that. Yeah. Like, factories don't really do that.
Heidi [00:34:54]:
No. No. Okay. And so this is the client. She found you on LinkedIn. Did you, like, have your profile, like, dialed in or, like, talk to
Natalie Kraska [00:35:06]:
us about
Heidi [00:35:06]:
what that looked like? And do you even know, like, how that how she like, what she put in to find you?
Natalie Kraska [00:35:12]:
Yeah. I don't know exactly what she put in to find me, but I've had since then, because I'm kinda at a point where, like, you know, like, you take on these clients and, like, after, like, after they really start working with you and liking you, the work becomes more and more, which is a good thing. But, I thought I would have more clients than I do, but Mhmm. I mean, I'm okay with it, but I've had people reach out to me since then. And so the people are finding me just from, I think, my, first most recent job on my Indian profile is that I am a contract freelancer. Okay. And I love your profile. I always keep up there.
Natalie Kraska [00:35:51]:
Find that on there. I kinda just put in and put on LinkedIn what I put on my resume. I I do know that I came across some stuff on LinkedIn when I was just trying to, like, put all of my feelers out there. So I was updating my LinkedIn. I was putting together these, like, mini portfolios. I was, you know, pitching on, Upwork and sending cold emails and stuff like that. So, yeah, the the LinkedIn was just kind of, like, one of the many things that I did to try to plant seeds. And, yeah, I don't know.
Natalie Kraska [00:36:26]:
I think it's really just from that freelancer thing, but it also could be the fact that I spoke they have, sort of, like, not quizzes. I guess they're quizzes. Quizzes for Photoshop and Illustrator on there. And when you do those, you get, like, some sort of badge on your profile. Mhmm. And having that badge, I think, makes you kind of appear a little above maybe somebody that doesn't have that badge. At least that's what I was understanding from it. When I was just trying to, like, do everything, I was kinda looking through LinkedIn and everything, and that was something I came across.
Natalie Kraska [00:36:57]:
And so I took those. Yeah. And some of them were, like, weird questions unrelated to fashion. So I just I feel like I just guessed, but I got I got the badges on my profile. And, I think that maybe maybe that has something to do with it. I don't know. I don't know for sure. I'd have to ask my client, what exactly, like, brought her to my profile, but Yeah.
Natalie Kraska [00:37:19]:
I'm sure having freelancer as one of my, like But it's kind of varied. Like, I'm
Heidi [00:37:26]:
looking at your profile right now, and you've got your name, and then your headline is just apparel designer. Like, that's it.
Natalie Kraska [00:37:33]:
Yeah. Yeah. I can't believe that. Because I originally had men's wear. Like, everything was, like, very segmented towards men's wear. Right. And I was, like, okay. I don't know what I'm gonna like, I I don't know what I'm gonna I'm gonna have to pivot, but I don't know what yet.
Natalie Kraska [00:37:46]:
So I kinda just changed it to that, and I I never changed it from there.
Heidi [00:37:49]:
It doesn't even say, like, freelance apparel designer. And then in your about section, it doesn't say anything about freelance. It just says senior level designer, and it's not until you get down to your experience that says apparel and print designer freelance. So from what I see, it's it's pretty deep in your profile to find that you're actually freelance. Like, it's not even
Natalie Kraska [00:38:14]:
in your headline. I don't know. Like, it has to do with the
Heidi [00:38:18]:
search, though? Yeah. Maybe.
Natalie Kraska [00:38:21]:
I don't know.
Heidi [00:38:22]:
He found you, though. And it's going great.
Natalie Kraska [00:38:23]:
Yeah. And I just made sure that was updated. I try to occasionally post on there because, just because I don't have, like, a job job to put on my resume anymore, like, you know, I try to I I don't do it very I'm bad at it. I need to be better at it, but, I try to, like, be somewhat active and, like, if I work on a project posted on there. Yeah. So so that kind of thing now, but that that this is like before that.
Heidi [00:38:53]:
Yeah. Yeah. That's amazing. How cool. Okay. So how do you, changing gears a little bit now, but like, and maybe things are different with your teaching arrangement, but how do you price your the work that you do for these brands? Because it it feels like it's pretty ongoing and pretty inclusive of a lot of the process. It's not like, oh, you did tech packs and then they're taking them and running. So how do you put together, like, your packages and pricing with these?
Natalie Kraska [00:39:28]:
So for me, I just, basically, I figured out what I wanted my hourly to be. And then I feel like there's, like, a little separate, like, side conversation there about my expectations for what I was gonna be doing versus, like, what you kinda fall into and what you have to kinda be upfront about when you, start talking to clients about what you offer. Mhmm. Because I thought designer, like, was clear. Like, I I have worn a lot of hats, and I do a lot of different things, and I love owning my designs and being such a part of the process. But it has, become even more technical than I thought. I knew some, things about the technical side anyway, like how to, like, set up, spec and edit grades, but I had never created a grade before, and I kinda ended up falling into creating a grade, which was scary, but I'm very proud of it now. Okay.
Natalie Kraska [00:40:19]:
But, yeah. Like, I mean, that sort of thing, like, that's something you need to, like, think about and watch out for because people don't know the difference between a technical designer and a designer. So, basically, coming back to what we were talking about, I, I just thought about what I wanted to get paid hourly. I had gone on quite a few interviews before that even, like, when I was kinda getting my feelers out, like, what I would've want a different job in corporate. So, I had a couple, like, situations where I, like, went for freelance job that were more formalanced just to also get, some strength in my, like, interviewing muscle, and I found out that, like, some of the things that I'd asked for were a little bit high. So so I kinda like yeah. So I kind of figured out a number that was good. Like, it was, something that people were open to, but, but also, like, I felt, like, still fair.
Natalie Kraska [00:41:21]:
So, so, yeah, so I basically took that number and I kind of made a calculator out of it. So, like, some people like to do, project rates. So I kinda, like, made this Excel calculator, which I'm happy to share with you. I've shared it with my students. Yeah.
Heidi [00:41:37]:
But I actually have a calculator, so it's interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Natalie Kraska [00:41:41]:
Yeah. So I kinda, like, have, like, a list of things that I do. I'm like, oh, what are the things that I do? And I kinda broke it down to, like, a a a easy tech pack, a medium tech pack, a hard tech pack, how many hours that would take times the hourly rate, gets to, like, what the project would cost. So, like, they can also see that if I send them this excel sheet, like, I'm not making up a number. Like, this is, like, this is how long it's gonna take me, and that's why it's this number. So I either some people are scared, especially people who are just starting brands. I know, like, some people just don't wanna do the hourly because they're like, that can accumulate. I don't know.
Natalie Kraska [00:42:25]:
I I have the budget for that, so they wanna go project rate. And I tell my students, and I found for me, it works best to figure out what you would actually want to get paid hourly, how long each thing would take you, each thing in your offering would take you. So figure out your project rate through that. So no matter what, it goes back to what do you wanna make hourly.
Heidi [00:42:48]:
Mhmm. Okay. Your calculator is definitely different than mine. So, yeah. If you wanna share that, that would be awesome. We can pop it into the show notes.
Natalie Kraska [00:42:54]:
I do think I remember your calculator from, like, like, it was in the class, I think. Yeah.
Heidi [00:42:57]:
But it's different than what you're talking about. Yeah. So then, how have you managed things like because that is a great way to calculate the flat project rate for your client because they can feel a little bit more comfortable going in knowing it's just gonna cost x. Right? The hours are not gonna be out of control. But then was there any learning curve for you with, like, projects taking longer or more revisions or, oh, then they're asking for this, this, and this, which wasn't necessarily included in the initial calculator that you went through.
Natalie Kraska [00:43:27]:
Yeah. Well, I mean, not a whole lot of that, honestly. Oh, good. But but I I will say, I started to lose confidence in myself for a while because I was, like, oh my gosh. Is this freelance thing panning out? Like, and I kind of lowballed myself, for a little while. So, I did have to negotiate, especially after then working for some chunk of time. I did have to negotiate, more money because I was like, I really love love myself because my my self esteem was low at the time. I feel like I started out really high when, like, I started going on interviews initially, and they're like, well, you're asking for too much.
Natalie Kraska [00:44:10]:
But then I went too low eventually when I lost confidence. And so I had to kinda, like, bounce back from that. Yeah. As far as, like, things taking too much, I'd say only in the sense of, like, I'm like, this is taking me too long. And I, like or I I forget to, like, turn on my timer or something like that, and I'm like, like and I I don't know. I, like, don't estimate how long that took me correctly, and I feel like I sometimes underestimate. So that sort of thing has happened to me, but I've never had pushback as far as, like, when I asked for something or honestly, like, drawn any boundaries in general. Like like, I really have no like, I've I've been I've had so much more pushback in corporate than I have with my clients.
Natalie Kraska [00:45:02]:
Yeah.
Heidi [00:45:03]:
That is great to hear. I mean, not the pushback in corporate, but that you haven't had enough clients.
Natalie Kraska [00:45:09]:
For sure. For sure.
Heidi [00:45:10]:
Yeah. That's amazing. Natalie, you have done so much in the past couple years. This is really exciting. What is the transformation feel like from where you were, let's say, 3, 4 years ago to where you are right now?
Natalie Kraska [00:45:25]:
Massive. Like, I feel like even when I was at my lowest, I was like, I don't wanna go back to corporate, but, like, for sure now, I I feel like I've learned a lot about myself. I love partnerships and, like, really, like, I'm not the person that's, like, clock in, clock out. That's just not me. Like, there's nothing wrong with people who are a clock in and clock out type of personality, but I wanna be involved, and I want I wanna be really a part of the process and, that sort of thing. So, it feels really good. It feels like I'm doing what I wanted to do, whereas, like, in corporate, it was, like, I can't see myself being design director someday. Like, I can see myself going further with this, and I see a future with it.
Natalie Kraska [00:46:02]:
So that's, I think, the biggest takeaway.
Heidi [00:46:06]:
Yeah. That's really exciting. And we didn't even get a chance to talk about it, but you're also launching your own collection talking of partnerships. You're you said you're partnering, I think, with a friend who's in the merchandising side of things.
Natalie Kraska [00:46:17]:
Yeah. We're in college together.
Heidi [00:46:20]:
Okay.
Natalie Kraska [00:46:21]:
But, yeah, I know. I I mean, I I'm partly inspired by working with my clients. I don't plan on stopping work. I love that too. So it's just kinda like an extra thing where we saw a gap in the market. I've had so many conversations. I've I've gone down and see my client in Arizona. We've got some magic together.
Natalie Kraska [00:46:39]:
So we've had a lot of, like, more personal conversations, and I feel like, while I've tried to teach her a lot about the design side of things and the technical side of things, she's taught me a lot about the business side of things just from our conversations, and, it kind of sparked my interest in in trying it and just seeing where it goes, and kind of just taking it small and seeing where it goes. So we're we're launching a, handbag line called Mary and Shelly. Yeah. And, yeah, we're the prototype stage right now. So there's a website up, but, like, we're still in the early stages. So it's, we'll see where it goes. So
Heidi [00:47:17]:
Yeah. That's exciting. Oh, I can't wait to hear about how about that as it grows. Amazing. Well, I would love to well, first of all, where can everybody find you and connect with you online?
Natalie Kraska [00:47:31]:
My LinkedIn profile. Our our my brand's website is maryandchelli.com. Okay. And Instagram I'm on Instagram. Okay. Noodily. Noodily? M o o o t a l I e. That's my personal, but I I do post, like, you know, career type stuff on there.
Natalie Kraska [00:47:52]:
I don't really have a business Instagram, but I kinda Okay. Use it for both.
Heidi [00:47:56]:
Awesome. We'll link to that in the show notes. And, I'll ask you the question I ask everybody at the end, which I know you know is coming because you've been a long time listener. What is one thing people never ask you about being a freelance fashion designer that you wish they would?
Natalie Kraska [00:48:09]:
Okay. Yes. I'm ready for this. I I I thought about, I thought about, saying something that was specifically related to freelance, but I felt like something that's more fashion related in general is really important, to say, and that's, do I need to have drawing skills to be in the fashion industry? And I feel like so many people have this misconception that they need to be, like, this big illustrator, and, they need to do that to break into really any creative field, but I've heard it, from students before that have been, like, look, I put this off until I had, my kids and all this because I didn't think I could do it because I can't draw. And I don't even remember the last time I physically drew something, but also some of the best designers that I knew in fashion school failed drawing class and couldn't illustrate and, like, they're doing great, and I I feel like, people should, take a stab at their creativity when they feel like they can't draw.
Heidi [00:49:10]:
Yeah. Thank you for saying that. Literally just recorded a video that's going up on YouTube in a couple weeks with that exact topic, because I cannot draw myself either. I am, like, never done pen and paper.
Natalie Kraska [00:49:24]:
Yeah. It's just it's different too. It's just a different creative process than, like, working with illustrator and kind of piecing things together or Yeah. Other areas of almost, like, modern computer design where you're, like, more so piecing ideas together and making adjustments to, like, look at your own creation. You're not really, like, like, when I when I used to paint, it was I was kinda copying a photograph or something like that. It's just a different it's a different thing.
Heidi [00:49:51]:
Yeah. It is a totally different thing. Well, thank you for sharing that. I appreciate that. I know the couple times I've ever talked to people about that, they're like, oh, that's really a relief because I don't know how to draw either. And I always felt like it was this, like, terrible secret that I had work in the industry.
Natalie Kraska [00:50:03]:
Now I know how to draw. So many misconceptions. So many misconceptions.
Heidi [00:50:08]:
Amazing. Thank you so much for coming on the show, Natalie. It's really awesome to hear your story.
Natalie Kraska [00:50:13]:
Thanks so much, Heidi. It was great to meet you. I can't wait to meet you in person.