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How to Humanist asks life’s questions big and small with the help of brilliant humans along the way.
SHAY:
We are back. How to Humanist with Shay Leonia. That’s me. That’s me, everybody. We did it. We’re on our third episode today.
I just want to acknowledge something. We have every intention of this podcast being evergreen-friendly, meaning that if you stumbled upon it 10 years from now, it would still feel as fresh and relevant in the future as it does today. In order to do that, we try to dodge specifics around what’s happening in the moment.
But it’s kind of hard to avoid the fact that the shit has hit the fan. And it feels very scary right now.
I don’t want to say any more than that. What I will say is that it feels very good to be at an organization that is a team of people working our asses off to try to prevent more shit from hitting the fan. We’re doing all that we can. And we can’t do it without you.
So I will just say, if you want to be part of this movement at the American Humanist Association, feel free to join us at americanhumanist.org/advocate. We train you on how to advocate and how to get involved. I’ll provide more information about that at a later date.
But for now, if you want to do something:
americanhumanist.org/advocate.
Now let me get into today’s guest.
Robert Affinis is somebody who, again, I didn’t know before joining humanism. But when I was handed the keys to our TikTok account, I went on the For You page — which, for anyone not familiar with TikTok, suggests videos it thinks you would like.
The first or second video that popped up was from Robert Affinis.
And when I tell you this man is like if the Quiet Storm was explaining Thomas Paine’s ideologies — he is a keynote speaker, educator, advocate. He does all of the things. He is so passionate about humanism and has such a fascinating journey about how he arrived at it, which we will touch on in this interview.
I don’t want to keep you too long from that. So let’s just get into it.
ROBERT:
I can’t tell you how many times where humanists, atheists — and not all atheists are humanists, because you can’t be homophobic, you can’t be sexist — but even the term “humanist.”
People say, “Man, Rob, I’m gonna get there one day. I’m gonna wear a T-shirt like your organization — Good Without God — even though I believe in God. I just can’t see myself wearing that out in public.”
And I tell them, that’s the reason religion has been allowed to run amok. That’s the reason. Because of our silence. Our complicity.
They are so bold.
The other day I had two Mormons come up to me and say, “Hey, can I speak to you about our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ?” And I thought for two seconds, I could just say, “I’m okay.” But I didn’t.
I said, “Oh no. I’m an atheist and a humanist. So no, thank you.”
Because if you’re bold enough to come to me and try to proselytize, then I should be bold enough to say who I am.
And so many of us are not.
We tolerate intolerance because we don’t want to lose family, friends, peers. And I get it.
It was easier for me because at 13 I started deconstructing. I was never sold out to Jesus. So it was very easy for me. By 18 years old, I was like, yeah, I went to the mosque for a couple years because I was interested in Islam. Then I went to a Buddhist temple for a year. I really like Buddhism — especially non-theistic Buddhism, because it’s actually atheistic in nature.
There’s that saying: if you see the Buddha on the side of the road, kill him. Why? Because that’s not the Buddha. That’s an imposter. You are the Buddha.
So I love non-theistic Buddhism.
After that, I was like, yeah, I’m good. I don’t believe in anything supernatural.
So I had an early head start. I didn’t deconstruct in my 30s or 40s after building relationships and family structures.
Unless we start talking about it, verbalizing it, advocating it — religion is always going to have that benefit over us. It’s bold. It’s vocal. It’s everywhere.
I ran across something about last year in the Netherlands. Do you know they have a Humanist University?
SHAY:
No!
ROBERT:
An entire university of humanism that strives for science, reason, and compassion.
And I asked myself, I live here in Arizona. There are Latter-day Saint schools everywhere. Evangelical private schools everywhere. Why don’t we have one humanist-centered charter school? Private school? Anything?
It’s totally legal. We have Islamic schools in this country. Why don’t we have a humanist school?
SHAY:
That is such an interesting question. But see, before I even knew that humanism existed, I would have thought, “Oh, is that like a version of Scientology or something?” I knew nothing about humanism.
So I think that point that you’re bringing up about putting a voice to it and actually using the word “humanist” is so important, because the marketing hasn’t really been good around humanism for all of this time.
Here I am discovering all of these people throughout history who have been humanists. But then why is it taking me until 2025 to even learn what the word “humanist” means?
ROBERT:
And collectively, it’s our fault.
I think it’s been saved in this ivory white tower of academic prowess. “Oh, you don’t believe in the supernatural? Oh, you’re an academic.” It’s that kind of snootiness, and we have kept it there and not really brought it to the mainstream.
And what happens too is religions try to co-opt it.
There was someone speaking who is a pastor, and they said, “Oh, I consider myself a spiritual humanist.” And I had to stop them. And I like them. I said, with all due respect, let’s not blur the lines.
Shay, I’ll be the first one to say, if Christians were to adopt certain humanist principles, it would make them better Christians. It wouldn’t make them humanists.
That’s a big difference.
What’s happening is this co-opting, because religion is failing. Everybody’s jumping off ship. So what do you do? You try to save it.
Now you have people that don’t even label themselves as Christian anymore. They say, “I’m spiritual. I’m a follower of the way. I’m a follower of Jesus Christ.” They don’t even like to use the term.
Now they’re saying, “Oh, I’m a spiritual humanist.”
For people who don’t even know what humanism is, you see how the meaning gets lost? Because they’re trying to attach themselves to the humanist movement while still forging belief in the supernatural.
“I’m not religious, I’m spiritual,” but you still go to church every Sunday. You still go to Bible study. You still pray. You still believe in God. It’s a rebrand.
You’ve just rebranded your faith because it’s failing.
And when you implement humanism in there, now no one knows what humanism is. Is it Christian? Is it Muslim? What is it?
You’re so right. Our marketing has not been up to par, and people really don’t know what humanism is.
SHAY:
I’ve been vegan since 2009. I have no problem saying I’m vegan. The hilarious trope is that you’ll know a vegan is vegan within five seconds. Yes, I am vegan.
But in the last several years, there’s been this product branding boom in veganism. Suddenly everything changed to “plant-based.”
Then you encounter someone who says, “Yeah, I’m plant-based, but I still eat eggs.” Or, “I’m plant-based, but I still eat fish.”
And I’m like, okay… that’s not the same thing as being vegan.
But then other people say, “Vegan, plant-based — same thing.”
So I feel like that’s such a great point you’re bringing up.
ROBERT:
To your point, that’s the difference.
“Oh yeah, we care for people too.” But ultimately — and I always bring up the Danish philosopher Søren Kierkegaard — when he tried to explain the story of Abraham and Isaac. How could a loving father, even if instructed by his God, attempt to unalive his son?
Kierkegaard, with his Lutheran piety, came up with the teleological suspension of the ethical, which basically means God can suspend his own ethics for his own glory.
Even Nietzsche was like, what? You know how insane that sounds?
So in other words, God can suspend ethics and morality so humans can do something heinous to prove loyalty.
That’s the difference.
When it comes down to it, Christians will follow their artifice or the commandments of their God before they follow what is ethical in a human sense. That is a huge difference.
Jehovah’s Witnesses — against blood transfusions. A simple procedure that could save a child. They won’t do it.
But they’re kind to people.
You see the contrast?
That’s where humanism has to separate itself from the noise of religions trying to co-opt it.
SHAY:
But when we do that, are we shutting the door for them to be curious enough to dip their toe in?
What if somebody’s bridge to becoming a humanist is first saying, “I guess I’m like a Christian humanist,” and then making their way over?
Because here’s my thing. One of the first people I brought to Fish’s attention was Mr. Rogers. How can we look at somebody like him and not consider him a humanist?
ROBERT:
I get it. I get it.
But the only distinction I would say — and I think it’s important — is why are you being a good person?
If you are only being good because you fear what will happen after you die, where is the deity in that?
To be good for goodness’ sake, without fear — are you really a good person? Or is it compulsory?
Humanists do good for goodness’ sake. We do good because it’s altruistic.
We don’t do good because we fear flames of hell.
I don’t know if someone acting out of fear is genuinely good.
ROBERT:
I have good friends who are Muslim, Christian, even Mormon. They all know me.
We’ll be talking and they’ll say, “Yeah, God was really with you when that happened.”
And I’ll say, “Come on.”
And I can be frank with them.
They’ll say, “You’re right, Rob.”
It’s just respect.
Believers have had such a long track record of saying whatever they want because religious language is integrated into everything.
“God bless you.” It’s everywhere.
Religion is in our healthcare system. One in seven hospital beds are owned by the Catholic Church. It’s in education. Now they’re trying to create a theocracy in government.
It’s everywhere.
We’ve got to speak up. Respectfully.
Say, “I understand you attribute that to God. That’s not my perspective.”
It might be uncomfortable at first. I’ve been doing it my whole life.
I just don’t give a damn.
SHAY:
You’re hilarious. I’m from Jersey. I could see myself doing that.
ROBERT:
No way. I’m from Trenton.
SHAY:
Shut up. I’m from Englewood.
ROBERT:
Yes. Lived in New Brunswick. Lived in Newark.
SHAY:
Hold on. You know it’s real because he said “Newark” as one syllable.
SHAY:
Up till now, Robert is speaking some really powerful truths, but even I can speak some real powerful stuff until it comes down to somebody one-on-one that I really care about, that I wanna protect their feelings. And we just have differences of opinion, differences of belief, and I just, I was so curious to hear what Robert had to say when it came down to how he handled those kinds of conversations with the people in his life that he really cares about.
ROBERT:
I have good friends that are Muslim, Christian, even a Mormon. They all know me. I set the precedence with them.
We’ll talk about something and they’ll say, “Yeah, God was really with you when that happened.”
And I’m like, come on.
And I can be frank with them. I’m like, come on. And they’ll say, “Oh, you’re right, Rob. Okay. You’re right.”
Because I can counter it and we can have a discussion about it. And it’s just a matter of respect.
I think believers have had such a long track record of saying what they want to say because religious language is integrated into everything. “God bless you.” It’s integrated into everything.
It’s not just an ideology. One in seven hospital beds are owned by the Catholic Church. Religion is in our healthcare system. Religion is in our education system. Religion — now they’re trying to create a theocracy in our government.
It’s everywhere. It’s not just an ideology. It’s in every part of daily life.
And so people just feel empowered to have regular conversations and bring up God at every second.
And we have to speak up, Shay.
We can do it respectfully. We can say, listen, I understand that you attribute every good thing that’s happened in your life to God. That’s okay for you. That’s not my perspective.
It might be uncomfortable at first, especially if you’re not used to doing that.
I’ve been doing that all my life because I just don’t give a damn.
SHAY:
You’re hilarious. See, I’m from Jersey, so I can see myself doing that. I have done that to people in the mall.
ROBERT:
No way. No way. I’m from Trenton.
SHAY:
Shut up. I’m from Englewood.
ROBERT:
What? Yes. I moved to Arizona maybe 16, 17 years ago. I lived in New Brunswick for a little bit. Lived in Newark for a little bit.
SHAY:
Wait. Hold on. Everybody, you know it’s real because he said “Newark” as one syllable. That’s how you know it’s real. Because nobody that’s from Newark is gonna say “New-ark.”
ROBERT:
Exactly.
SHAY:
That’s hilarious. Oh my gosh.
My thing is, I know that I’m a people pleaser. I’m also a peacekeeper.
I don’t care if people believe they had fairies in their backyard. I just don’t want that in my politics and in my education. I don’t care what you believe. Just don’t involve me in it.
ROBERT:
Eventually things will change for the better. But we have to speak up, and we can do it respectfully.
My mom is still a staunch Christian.
SHAY:
Ooh. Tell me more. How did you have that conversation with her?
ROBERT:
I had a lot of questions growing up. I got thrown out of Sunday school like four times.
Luckily, Shay, I had a mom — a Black woman. And I grew up in the projects for 10 years of my life.
A Black woman in the inner city — yeah, they’re going to be super religious. But my mom graduated from Rutgers University — Newark.
She allowed me space.
Even though she was a Christian, when I said I wanted to learn about other faiths, she allowed me to. She allowed me to go to the mosque. She allowed me to go to the Buddhist temple.
When I came out around 18 and said, you know what, I get Christianity. I get the Abrahamic religions. I get it. I’m good. I’m an atheist and I’m a humanist.
She said, “I figured this would happen.”
Especially because my first cousin introduced me to Thomas Paine’s book The Age of Reason. It totally changed the trajectory of my life.
Over the years, my mom and I would talk. She would say, “I just don’t know why you won’t acknowledge Jesus.”
And we would talk.
Now my mom is 73, and she says, “You know, Robert, I’m starting to see what you were talking about all those years ago. I’m still a Christian, but I’m starting to see some things that just don’t add up.”
And I always tell her, just live a little longer, Mom. Just hold on a little longer. You’ll be on my side.
But I was fortunate enough to have a parent who allowed me to excavate my own mind.
Most people don’t have those kinds of parents.
That’s the difference.
I didn’t have to go through people isolating me or stopping being my friend. Many people do go through that. I was fortunate.
That’s why I believe parenthood is so important.
My mother allowed me to explore my own mind, even though she was a Christian. And I will forever be in debt to her for that.
Always.
SHAY:
Drew McCoy from Genetically Modified Skeptic made a video about how he refuses to debate anyone anymore about religion.
So I’m curious — how does one know when to leave the conversation alone or when to explore it, like you did with your mom?
ROBERT:
You can tell when someone is being intellectually dishonest.
I’ll give you an example.
About seven or eight months ago, I was at the supermarket wearing one of my shirts — I think it said, “To Be Human Is Enough.”
A lady started talking to me about it. Then it got into religion.
I told her I’m a humanist and an atheist.
I said something about an Orwellian phrase — two plus two equals five in the religious mind.
She said, “I understand, but how do you know two plus two isn’t five in a different universe?”
At that moment, Shay, I said, it was great talking to you. Because now it’s gone into the lane of ridiculousness.
The intellectual honesty is gone.
So I ended the conversation politely.
So you can tell when someone is listening and engaging versus when they’re closed off and just saying something absurd.
And to end this — I agree with Drew.
I don’t want to debate the existence of God. That’s boring to me. I did that as a teenager. I’m in my early 50s.
What attracts me now is this:
Why are the least religious countries the happiest countries in the world, according to the UN Happiness Index?
Why do children who grow up in secular households have higher empathy rates than children who grow up in religious households?
Those conversations attract me.
The existence of a God? I don’t care.
How does your faith incorporate into how you treat homosexual people?
How does your faith allow you to see women? As equals or as helpmates?
Those are the conversations I care about.
Not, “Did Jesus exist?”
I don’t care.
SHAY:
I am just — I’m trying to envision the various situations that listeners might be in when they’re just discovering humanism and potentially scared to tell their families.
And I find that the conversation, at least from my vantage point, feels like it would be easier in white households than it would be in households of other backgrounds — particularly first-generation backgrounds, Black households, Hispanic households.
I can’t imagine — is that just an instinct for me? Can you put to words why it would be that way?
ROBERT:
One word: slavery.
I’ll tell you this.
A good friend of mine — PhD from Princeton, graduated from Princeton Theological Seminary — it was a running joke for years that students come into Princeton Seminary wanting to spread the word, and they come out as atheists.
That was a running joke for decades.
Because not all seminaries are the same. Just like not every barber, hairstylist, or mechanic is the same.
Some seminaries are very Jesus-leaning. Some seminaries are like, this is the history, this is the anthropology, you make up your own damn mind.
That’s Princeton.
They’re not going to lean one way or another. They’ll just give you the facts, the literature, and let you decide.
He really exposed me to philosophy early on.
When we would talk, I’d think, you’re an atheist.
He told me this: “Rob, I’m one eyelash away from being an atheist.”
I said, what do you mean?
He said, “I feel compelled, based on culture — even though I know Christianity was given to my people as a sedative to make them docile in the face of horror. They took that in, and it was all they had to survive. I have to respect that.”
And it was a moment of silence for five minutes.
And I said, I understand that.
You either submit to Jesus, or your family might be separated and sold off.
You know what? As in Rome, do as the Romans do.
I get that.
But do you think our ancestors meant for us to remain Christians?
His eyes lit up.
And I said, that’s the problem I have.
If it was done out of survival, now we do it willingly.
That’s the reason.
Slavery.
It’s epigenetic at this point. I really think it’s epigenetic.
It’s going to take another 100 to 200 years to wash out. It’s going to take a long time.
Slavery did its role on Black folks.
You had a politician in Florida who publicly said she thanks Jesus for slavery because if we were still in Africa, we’d still be worshiping trees.
That was a Black woman politician.
Thank Jesus for slavery.
That’s how psychologically damaged, collectively, Black America is.
We’re damaged beyond almost repair.
It has to start with the youth. It has to start with younger parents teaching their kids.
This generational curse — which I call religion — has to stop.
It has to start with our children.
That’s why when I tell people my story about my mother, they can’t believe it.
They’re like, wait a minute — a Black woman allowed you to go to a Buddhist temple? Allowed you to go to the mosque?
Yes, she did.
That’s a rarity.
That’s not common.
We look at West Africa — we didn’t hear about Jesus until the later part of the 15th century when the Portuguese came.
We didn’t know what Christianity was.
So that’s why it’s so prominent in Black households.
SHAY:
For anybody listening, I’m just sitting here with my jaw wide open.
Wow.
ROBERT:
Yeah.
So that’s why the conversation is so layered and emotional.
You’ll have people say to me, “What do you think got us through slavery? Jesus.”
And I’ll say, no.
Jesus didn’t stop chains. Jesus didn’t stop whips.
We are a nation in need of repair psychologically.
That’s one of the reasons I hand out scathing indictments of religion — specifically Abrahamic religions.
At the same time, I have love for people. I understand why people hold onto what they hold onto.
But I try to let people know that’s how it was designed.
Why is there a liquor store in every low-income area, and a mile away there’s a church?
Designed that way.
Anywhere there’s upheaval, despair, instability — churches are right around the corner.
Where else are you going to turn?
That’s where humanism lacks.
And I think Anthony Pinn even said this.
We tell people, you don’t need this anymore. Believe in yourself.
Okay.
But where’s the community?
A church is a one-stop shop.
You’re in church and you say, I’m going house shopping.
“Oh, Sister So-and-So is a realtor.”
“I need a job.”
“Oh, Deon is a VP at Schwab.”
It’s more than ideology. It’s infrastructure.
So when you tell someone to leave the church, where do they land?
There’s not a lot of real community.
Sure, we have conferences.
But the day-to-day community element — religion has had a head start.
To be fair, it has had a head start.
Ideas can’t exist in a vacuum.
We need institutional backing.
We need educational institutions.
We need hospitals.
Doctors Without Borders is a secular organization.
But when I go to Banner or Dignity Health and I see scripture at the entrance of a hospital?
It’s everywhere.
Where is humanism?
We have to do better branding.
We have to be a little aggressive about it.
Not disrespectful — but visible.
For crying out loud, we have humanists who won’t even wear a “Good Without God” T-shirt because they’re afraid of what someone might say.
Then we’re cooked.
Collectively, we’re cooked.
People walk around with “Jesus Saves” shirts and church decals on their cars.
They’re proud.
We can’t even wear a humanist logo or sticker because we’re afraid of religious folks’ reactions?
Then we’re cooked.
SHAY:
For those of you that aren’t afraid, we do have the merch store at store.humanist.org.
ROBERT:
That was perfectly timed.
SHAY:
We do have stickers and T-shirts and mugs and more.
You just gave us so much to think about and marinate on.
Aside from following you, Candace Gorham has the incredible book The Ebony Exodus Project. We know James Baldwin. We know Frederick Douglass.
Are there any people you want listeners to know about — especially those in marginalized communities — to help them have these conversations more easily?
ROBERT:
Yes.
I will mention one, because I think it’s important.
In the heavy philosophical realm, I would have people read Kwasi Wiredu.
He passed away maybe four years ago.
He was a professor at the University of South Florida.
He came from the Akan tribe in Ghana and studied analytical philosophy at Oxford.
He wrote a paper called Decolonizing African Religion.
The PDF is free online.
Kwasi Wiredu.
Some say he was the greatest walking philosopher on earth while he was alive.
That paper will open people up to new things from an academic, philosophical standpoint.
He’s not just talking about Christianity.
He’s talking about decolonizing all of it.
I would definitely start with him.
He changed my life.
He has several books out as well.
Some of it is heavy reading.
But he’s so on point.
SHAY:
Robert, this conversation has been one of my favorites.
ROBERT:
That means a lot to me. I appreciate you.
SHAY:
Thank you for being here.
I really want everybody to follow you and your work because what you’re doing is so important.
And if you ever feel like reading the Yellow Pages in your content, I will happily listen.
ROBERT:
I appreciate you.
And I would love for you to come on my podcast in the future.
SHAY:
We will.
Send me an email. You know how to reach me.
I’d be honored.
ROBERT:
Tell Fish this is amazing — what you all are doing.
I’m all for it.