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Join Derek Hudson as he explores Essential Dynamics, a framework for approaching the challenges facing people and organizations. Consider your Quest!
Welcome to Essential Dynamics. I'm Derek Hudson, host of the Essential Dynamics podcast and developer of the Essential Dynamics Framework. And I'm really excited today to be back in Canada and with my good friend, Bryn Griffiths, to have another conversation.
Bryn:How you doing?
Derek:I'm doing great, Bryn. Really am. What a beautiful fall these Oh, yeah. I guess it starts in a couple of days here
Bryn:on the
Derek:on the calendar, but what a beautiful beautiful fall after a rainy summer in Edmonton.
Bryn:It's my favorite time of the year, the month of September. And you're right, fall starts on the twenty second at 06:05 Mountain Daylight Time. But who's counting?
Derek:I am. That's that's the Equinox for us nerds. Alright.
Bryn:Absolutely. Okay. So let hey. Congratulations, by the way. This is the start of season number six.
Bryn:This is episode one forty one. Can you believe it?
Derek:Yeah. That's that's amazing. Like, what's a season in a podcast? I think
Bryn:As many as you want it to be.
Derek:In my mind, it's this is a bit of a refreshed approach. We're taking things in a slightly different direction, but we've been building on it for a long time. And I'm pretty excited that I had a chance to to go over to Manchester and attend a really interesting conference, and they even let me speak. Well, before we
Bryn:get to that, let's take a look at the past five seasons of this. You know, when you first started, I didn't have a clue what you were talking about. I have known you for decades, but it was fun watching you start to get your feet wet and get into this podcasting thing. And is it but it's also amazing to me how much you've grown and how you've been able to change it up season to season to season where there's constant growth. I've loved that.
Bryn:And it just makes me more excited about season number six.
Derek:Well, the thing that's most surprising to me, Brynn, is that, you know, in one sense, had the the foresight or the the vision, the concept of Essential Dynamics very early on in the middle of twenty twenty. And I thought there was enough there for a podcast, which I probably didn't have any business doing. But but we started it, and I haven't run out of material. I've I've learned a ton. I use this stuff in the work that I do with clients.
Derek:I use it to make sense of the world, and it's getting better and better and more useful. And so that's kind of what what season six is about is a different way of thinking about it. But the the material's holding up. And fun thing for me is that anybody who listens to the podcast can see how it's developed over that time. You just have to dial back to an early season and say, okay.
Derek:Yeah. It was kinda there then, but it makes more sense now.
Bryn:Well, see, here's part of the fun for me, and I work with numerous clients and and try to help their businesses with their podcast, which is now it's funny because back about a decade ago, podcasting was not considered part of the marketing tools. Now it is. So it's fun to be dealing with all sorts of different clients. But the thing that the thing that I've really noticed is that since the pandemic, the world has started to take things on with a certain degree of enthusiasm and zest. We thought we were down and out and found our way through that.
Bryn:And now people are just looking for new ways to to get up on top of that mountain and scream and shout about what they do. And the other thing that I love about it is the fact that you're constantly learning. I'm constantly learning. And then we apply it, and we wanna tell people about it. And so with you in particular, you know as well as the next person that your learning days are not over.
Bryn:Right?
Derek:Well, you know, I hit a milestone birthday this year where some people think you're not 50? Yeah. That's the one. Yeah. Yeah.
Derek:When people think, well, you're done, and you're just gonna coast for, like, the next twenty years. Sixty. And Sixty. No. It wasn't even that.
Derek:And Okay. I just feel like I'm getting started in terms terms of understanding how the world works. And I don't I don't wanna stop, and I don't wanna not share it because we might as well have people start further along than we started.
Bryn:Absolutely. And I've been in the broadcasting business, television or radio, for forty years, and I don't think there's a day that doesn't go by where I go, wow. I learned something new today. And now I've got this going with podcasting, listen to a lot of podcasts, and I'm learning even more daily from subject matter that I'm really interested in. So you've you've come a long way with this, and I've really enjoyed listening to all of it.
Bryn:And I just can't believe that it's one forty one, And I really can't believe it's season six, and yet I'm as excited about it now as I was when you first started, which is great.
Derek:I am too. Probably more excited and a little more confident as well.
Bryn:Excellent. Okay. So tell me about Manchester. What what happened there? Because you sent your last your last episode was from London, and that also tells you how the world has changed where you can just easily do a podcast in London, England and have it out there, which was kinda fun for me to get to get the audio from you and clean it up just a little bit.
Bryn:But it just tells you how big the world is and how how much fun it can be.
Derek:Well, I gotta tell you, my studio was really interesting because we're staying in an old hotel K. In the Covent Garden, not too far from the West End and not too far from all the action, really. Was a great location. And this little hotel, it's the Fielding Hotel. I should do a shout out because it was so cute.
Derek:Yeah. Our our room was on the 3rd Floor, 2nd Floor in England, but you know how we count them here. And we had a a bed and a couple pieces of furniture, and then stairs down a level, and a tiny landing where there was a desk and a window to the back alley and then a bathroom. Yeah. And Yeah.
Derek:And and so I was in this little alcove feeling very much like I was, you know, in a different world, recording this episode late at night. It was super fun.
Bryn:Well, it's funny because you sounded a little quiet to me, and I went, I wonder what time he taped this. That's right. Yeah. I'm onto it. But you know what?
Bryn:The the best part about this is that you can you can deliver from anywhere. You could've gone out on the street. You could've walked probably a couple of blocks, and you'd have been at Trafalgar Square, and you could've just sat on a lion, and you could have done a podcast right from there. That's how that's how wild the world is now, but I thought it was a great great subject matter. But London was the back end of your trip, but tell everybody about Manchester.
Derek:Yeah. So we our conference is at the University of Manchester, and it was the sponsored by or no. It's produced by the theory of constraints international certification organization, of which I am not certified. And they wanted to kind of it's a it was this theory of constraints innovation summit. K.
Derek:And and they wanted to be a little bit provocative. And so they came up with a new format. Typically, it's fifty minute lecture with lots of PowerPoints and and questions for a few minutes. And they wanted to mix that up a little bit, so they decided to do Ted's TED Talk style presentations.
Bryn:Okay.
Derek:And so so I was the first person ever to do what they call TOCX or maybe talk x presentation. It was fifteen minutes, you know, on a stage Yeah. And no notes and stuff like that. And I tried to choose a provocative talk topic for that audience, which which seemed to land well, but not as well as I would have liked. So I'm not gonna stop talking about this stuff.
Derek:Okay. So
Bryn:let me ask you this. If you kinda got to some of the group, where people are a little closed off, hey, anytime I go to a convention, I'm going for one reason. I wanna learn new stuff.
Derek:Yeah. But that's me. The challenge is if you define yourself by the tool, it's very hard to get past what the tool can do. And of course, the tool, theory of constraints, is to help you see systems. And that was the that was the point that I made.
Derek:And doctor Goldratt, in the book, the goal, as I explained in my last episode, lays it all out. Right? And everyone just kind of focuses on the tool. And so I'm this is why I have season six. This is one of the reasons to switch seasons is we've defined the problem now.
Derek:And the problem is that we can't see the system, and Essential Dynamics is, in my mind, vital. They ask vital questions that we need to answer to make us step back and see the system. And if we can see the system, we can we can approve it. It can be better for everybody.
Bryn:So just to stay with this topic a little bit before we start to veer. Were you disappointed with a few things there? Were people close minded? Were people there wanting to learn new stuff? Like, I'm guessing it was a bit of everything.
Derek:It was a bit of everything, and they're I'm trying to think of who said it, but the quotation is something like, never underestimate the difficulty of convincing someone something that is wrong if his salary depends on it.
Bryn:Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I kinda get that.
Derek:So Okay. So there's a there's a, you know, there's a consulting model that's set up, and people it's you know, it works well. I just think that there's bigger potential. And one of the questions that people ask themselves is, if the theory of constraints is so great, why is it not more popular? And that's probably one of the things that got me into Essential Dynamics early in 2020.
Derek:And so I think I have some answers to that, and I'm still interested in sharing them with that community and also with other communities as well.
Bryn:Every time I come back from a convention and I'm in Calgary at a podcast convention coming up in October. So when I get back home to Edmonton, I will be asked the same question. I'm gonna throw it at you. The question that's always asked of me is, so was there one person that stood out for you? Somebody who said something or or you met that made an impression on you?
Bryn:Because I know that there's a lot of people at these events, but usually, there's one or two people that you go, wow. I could have talked to that person for another fifteen or twenty minutes or maybe even longer.
Derek:There were two people that stood out in a number of ways, and part of it was the subject matter. And that is this is a business conference, and it's all about, you know, running the plant better.
Bryn:Right.
Derek:That that's kinda where it starts from. And one person focused on raising children, And the other person who's a psychologist was working on using theory of constraints to help people who had suicidal ideation. Okay. So serious stuff. Yeah.
Derek:Yeah. And it was a breath fresh air, and, you know, it's easier to under see the principles when you get outside the core application of the of the factory.
Bryn:Isn't that the most fascinating part, though? We take a look at, you know, we take a look at everything we've talked about here over the previous five years, and then we are able to expand upon it and recognize that that might be applicable to something else. So is there anything else about Manchester before we move on and get excited about season six though?
Derek:Yeah. So the cool thing about Manchester, it's it's the heart of the industrial revolution.
Bryn:Yes.
Derek:Yep. And, you know, it's interesting because there's a there's a bit of a revisionist history take in some of the museums and stuff there that talks about how oppressive the the working conditions are and stuff like that. And, you know, obviously, they they weren't up to modern safety standards or quality of life or anything like that. But the industrial revolution, as it's progressed, freed people from the slavery of subsistence farming. And I don't I don't wanna be too judgy about any particular individual.
Derek:There's probably some good and good and some bad. But the idea that we can figure out better ways of doing things and producing things at scale so that people throughout the world can have more of what they need, I I thought it was just really fascinating.
Bryn:You're talking about the industrial revolution. When did that really kinda start? It goes back way, way, way before our time. That's for sure. But when you're in Manchester, you see it up close and personal.
Derek:Yeah. It would have been the late eighteenth century with the steam engine, and then the and the cotton looms, and and that kind of stuff. And, of course, they they had trains and shipping and, you know, these massive factories like robots, mechanized robots almost that operated with steam engines. It was like amazing.
Bryn:Crazy.
Derek:Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for asking about that. And don't get me
Bryn:problem. Started
Derek:Don't get me started on London. That'll be another episode.
Bryn:One of my all time favorite cities. Always has been. Okay. So here we go. We're moving into season six.
Bryn:One of the things that I've loved about the previous five seasons is that every season, it's been a little bit different. There's been a little different of a spin on it. So coming up in season six, have you given it any thought? Maybe when you're traveling your eight and a half hours across the Atlantic to get back to Canada, you thought maybe we gotta take it out a different door. I mean, what are your thoughts going into season six?
Derek:Yeah. Literally, I have notes from the plane on the way back on on all of this stuff because I was really struck by the need that we all have to develop the skill of seeing the systems that we're in. And we have these tendencies to to not do it because it's it's a bit of work because we don't have the language and because we caught we get caught up with, like, our our scene in it. Like, our little part of it becomes really, really important. And so what like, one of the things I said when I talk in Manchester is there's three three ways you could think of to to sort of get out of the system so you can see it.
Derek:One is distance. The second one is a guide, someone to talk to, particularly who's outside of it asking, you know, the hard questions, and the third is a framework. And the framework that I have that I've developed, I think is really powerful. And so and then then I've reduced it down to this kernel, and I've introduced the idea of a kernel. And I think that's where season six goes is.
Derek:How do you really use this? And I'm making it open source because I wanna I wanna enlist other people in great minds to help with, you know, developing this framework and sharing this framework so that we can get better decisions, better ways of doing things in the organizations that we work in.
Bryn:You mentioned the colonel. We'll get to that in a couple of seconds. But one of the things that we don't and haven't done enough of, in my estimation, is is point out that feedback is a great thing for you. It's a great thing for me doing what I'm doing. So we need to push a little harder that if somebody wants to get ahold of you with feedback on this podcast or any of the stuff you're doing, how do they do that?
Derek:Oh, yeah. So, Derek.
Bryn:That's right.
Derek:You can say it. I'm gonna say it. I'm gonna say it's it's Derek@getunconstrained.com. K. Got it.
Derek:That's that's the way to get ahold of me. And, yes, feedback in particular, I would love to hear someone say, I don't I don't think you know what you're talking about in this area. That would be the best.
Bryn:Nothing wrong with that. Yeah. Because then you can convince somebody that you do know what you're talking about. The other thing too, guests are wonderful. And sometimes people may say, I'd like to get on that podcast, or I think maybe I can contribute in some way.
Bryn:Can people reach you also at that email address if they've got something that they think they can add to this?
Derek:Absolutely. And I would say that the key thing that I want to do when I talk to people is talk about their system or how they look at systems. Right.
Bryn:Absolutely. There's lot of great stories out there. That's
Derek:Oh, absolutely.
Bryn:Things I wanted to point out. I wrote that down before we even started today. I wanna make sure people understand that what you hear, you just you don't have to passively listen to it. If you wanna get it activated or you wanna have some feedback that you wanna ship off to us, you can do it. So so there there's that side of things.
Bryn:So let's talk about the colonel and and where you wanna take this now as we move ahead into season six. Yeah.
Derek:So I I said I think part of it was when we were off the air, but one of the challenges with the conference that's based on a particular, you know, management approach is it's very tempting to start to see the world from the view of that management approach. And Maslow said that every every one with a hammer is out there and just looking for nails. Right? And
Bryn:Well, you have the hammer,
Derek:I guess. So so we I wanna turn around and say, well, how do we just see what's going on and not jump to conclusions about what the problem is? And so I have kept track of these thoughts that I've had. And so I've published them in the Essential Dynamics Wiki And the podcast show notes, that's where they're they live as well. And I'm trying to interconnect all these thoughts that I have.
Derek:And I realized it was getting it was getting big, and I understood it. But the question that I had to ask myself was what's the what's the essence of Essential Dynamics? And can I explain it to, you know, a 12 year old? Can I share it with someone to the in a way that they could remember it? And then use the points and essential dynamics to, you know, sort through any situation that they're in.
Derek:And so I reduced the whole thing down to a 150 words, got inspired as I said in a couple episodes about the the Linux example, and say, if you can if you can reduce truth down to something really sort of pure and fundamental, then you you can always go back to that. And you can, you know, add insights to it and find, you know, all kinds of ways of using it because we're not presupposing anything other than sort of, in my mind, these front fundamental truths and interactions. And so I think that's really good. Plus, it's compact, so it can be you can find it on a page and it can well, I've got it like a visual reference guide to it. You can use it in a AI chat.
Derek:You can code it into an AI. You can use it as an outline for for business analysis and stuff like that. So I think it's it's holding up well. I wanna I wanna get it better. I wanna be challenged.
Derek:There's needs to be a second version at some point, but it's it's the answer to the question, how do I see a system?
Bryn:Have to say this. The older I get, the more I realize I'm a process guy. Trust the process before anything. That's just me. I have to have it all out in front of me.
Bryn:I feel comfortable having that that in front of me, that type of thing. But when we're talking about essential dynamics, is it out there everywhere and often people don't even know that it's there?
Derek:Oh, yeah. Like and that was kind of the the fun that I had in Manchester. K. Is the theory of constraints was first popularized by the book, The Goal. And I found all of Essential Dynamics in The Goal, And I was able to kinda bring it back to people and say, doctor Goldratt, you said, this is what we have to do.
Derek:And it's not been it's not part of the vocabulary. I'm trying to make it part of the vocabulary.
Bryn:So how do you dust off what you do to try to find out whether or not what you're doing has got elements of this?
Derek:Well, one of the one of the things I really like to do is I like to look at business situations and stories, and, you know, like even mythology and say, what what are the patterns in humor act in human interaction? And can that teach us something that I need in essential dynamics? Or can I use essential dynamics to understand those things? And I have a great example today that I wanna walk walk through to some degree. Well, let's walk through it.
Derek:Okay. So I think it's 2011. There's the movie, Brad Pitt, Moneyball. Yep. And that's based on a true story, and of course, it's dramatized.
Derek:But there's what what happened in the story is that Brad Pitt, general manager of the Oakland A's, learns a different way of seeing the system. And the the movie is about his journey to finally understand and see the system of having a winning baseball team. And all the pieces that we've put together in Essential Dynamics come out in the movie. It's really cool. And of course, the first time I saw the movie, I didn't have Essential Dynamics in front of
Bryn:Well, I the the I love the movie first and foremost. And and, yeah, the lesson for me is that I know one of the biggest things I always hear from people, and I hate it, is, well, we've always done it this way, blah blah blah blah. And I kinda think, yeah. But so I've been in broadcasting for forty years, and now I'm using AI more than I ever thought I would, and I'm 66. And that's because I don't wanna always do it the way I've always done it.
Bryn:I'm always looking for new and exciting ways of getting from point a to point b differently, yet still have certain processes that make me feel comfortable. Yeah. Am I wrong in doing that?
Derek:No. No. No. And and so, like, one of the things that I I've talked about a little bit, but it's been a while, is that the fundamental assumptions that we use to sort of justify the rest of Essential Dynamics. I call them the axioms.
Derek:There's three of them. And I'll just play them out in money ball context.
Bryn:Okay.
Derek:So they're natural law agency in abundance. And natural law is just the idea that the universe is understandable, that there's cause and effect. And we may not like a particular law, but if we understand it, then, you know, we can make better decisions and we can use it. Hopefully, yeah. Yeah.
Derek:Agency is that as individuals, in any set of circumstances, we can choose our response. And of course, that adds to natural law because natural law says, here are some factors to consider. And if you understand them, then you can use your agency to make decisions. And then abundance is the idea that our decisions could actually make things better. And so if if if you go to to Moneyball, the Moneyball theory, or I guess the sabermetrics theory that was founded on that sort of the the analysis engine is that there are things you have to do to increase your odds of winning a baseball game.
Derek:And to win a baseball game, you have to have more runs than the other team. One. The the only way to get runs in a baseball game is to have people on base. Two. And so if you design your system around getting people on base, you're likely to to win more games.
Derek:And if you can figure out how to get people on base and spend less money, then you have more flexibility to do more things. But if you spend your money on things that don't generate players on base, then you can have all the superstars you want, and it's it might be futile.
Bryn:The third one for me too is aggressiveness and being proactive. The teams that sit back and wait, bad stuff happens. Gotta constantly my dad always said, full full speed ahead, you have to do that. It it it's all it's all in that movie, and what you're bringing up just reminds me of how great I how great that movie is and how much I enjoyed it because I think there's a lot of elements in there that yeah.
Bryn:I know this is a baseball movie, but it wasn't a baseball movie for me.
Derek:No. And and so here's the example is the Oakland A's player budget is 40,000,000 and the New York Yankees is a 120,000,000. And so if you win on superstars, the Oakland A's don't have a chance. But if they redefine baseball as in we need to get men on base, then it's basically, how many dollars of salary do I have to pay to have more chances of getting men on base?
Derek:Yep. And then and then, the agency comes in where they say, no, we understand this principle, then we have to act on it. And so then they had they have to make very popular unpopular decisions about getting rid of popular players and taking a chance on someone who's got good numbers, but maybe, you know, throws funny or something like that.
Bryn:At the end of the day, fans wanna win.
Derek:Yeah. Wanna win. Well, and, you know, and that's that's the way sports is set up where we have really clear purpose, and not all our organizations are like that. Yeah. But when you have a clear purpose, take the time to figure out what are the building blocks to to accomplishing it.
Derek:And it's hard work to do that, which is why we have to do things like lay out the whole kernel of Essential Dynamics. So that's that's one thing. Even though it's just those axioms is that Billy Beane says, we can do this even though most people would say, well, you can never touch the Yankees. Like, because you don't you don't have the budget. But he said, well, let's let's let's understand the system here and we can do better.
Derek:And the other thing that I I find really comes out in the movie is this idea of tension. And in particular, there's the tension of, are we going to, like you said, do it the way we've always done because everyone's comfortable with it? Or are we gonna get uncomfortable and and take a bet on some players that don't fit our model because the the numbers seem like they will work better? Yeah. And and so there's that attention in all organizations really.
Derek:You could talk about it with like stability, and then opportunity or stability and growth. And you can't can't drop everything and try all kinds of new stuff at the same time. But if you if you sit back and do the same stuff, you can't complain about getting the same result that you're not happy with. That's for sure.
Bryn:I'm gonna have to go back and rent that movie. Download that movie again. Hey. We're we're out of time, but I think we're kinda we're getting off on the right foot here for season six. I'm excited about it.
Derek:Yeah. So what what I wanna do just so that's an example of how Essential Dynamics dropped into the kernel is something that you could use just even like and to enjoy it Friday night watching a movie about baseball. I have I have made the whole thing open source because I want the feedback, and I and I want people to try it out and test it, use it in their own business situations. I'd love for for teachers, academics to use it in classrooms and consultants to add it to their model. All you have to do is attribute it back to to me.
Derek:And and one of the reasons that I'm trying to be so free with this and and have an open source is because if the goal is system site, and the framework is a way to get there, we have to have common language. So if I lock the language up behind a paywall, what good is that gonna do to this overall economy, this overall society that we're trying to build? So that's why it's open source, and I'll be probably talking about that next time.
Bryn:Okay. I don't usually wrap this up. You do. So once again, if people wanna get ahold of you, it's Derek at get unconstrained dot com. Correct?
Derek:That's correct. And you can find the wiki at Essential Dynamics dot wiki slash colonel. That's the best place to go there, and I'll put that in the show notes. So, Brynn, thanks very much for coming on and poking me a little bit with some some great questions. Love having these conversations and really excited about season six.
Derek:So what should I do now? You should consider your quest.