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Following the successful first and second series of Unlocking the SDGs – A Blueprint for the Future, Professor Monica Lakhanpaul and Professor Priti Parikh are back with a deep dive into the UN SDGs. Over five episodes, the series considers issues including the role of AI and education in the SDGs and what other countries are doing to achieve the goals. Listen as academics from across UCL’s faculties and beyond bring new perspectives and understanding to this complex global issue.
00:00:12 Speaker 1
Welcome back to the third series of unlocking the SDGS a blueprint for the future. In this podcast, we explore the UN Sustainable Development Goals, or SDG's, and what they mean for society. I'm Professor Monica Lakhanpaul, professor of integrated community child health at the UCL, Great Ormond St Institute for Child Health
Seaker 2
And I’m professor Priti Parikh, professor of infrastructure engineering and International Development at the Bartlett, UCL School of Sustainable Construction. In this episode we are discussing the relationship between the Sustainable Development Goals and climate change Goal 13 calls for urgent.
00:00:49 Speaker 2
Action to combat climate change and its impacts, and many people have argued that tackling climate change should be the highest priority of the goals because of its impact on all of the other targets. Today we'll be exploring the roles of universities like UCL in addressing the climate crisis.
00:01:07 Speaker 2
And what that can mean for delivering against the growth?
00:01:16 Speaker 1
Our guest today are Professor Catalina Turcu professor of sustainable built Environment, Bartlett School of Planning, and Professor Ilan Kelman, professor of disasters and health in the Department of Risk and Disaster Reduction and Institute for Global Health. Welcome to you both.
00:01:33 Speaker 3
Thank you.
00:01:34 Speaker 2
Hello Professor Toku UCL recently sent 4 academics to the bound climate change.
00:01:40 Speaker 2
Conference and you were part of the team. What was your mission at the conference and what were your experiences?
00:01:46 Speaker 4
Thank you very much for the invitation and I'm delighted to participate and be part of your postcast, especially around these two themes, sustainable development goals and climate crisis, which are very dear to my heart. And to answer your question now.
00:02:01 Speaker 4
Yes, I was one of the four lucky academics to be representing UCLA at the Climate Change conference in Bonn.
00:02:09 Speaker 4
For those of you who don't know, this conference is the more technical conference which prepares the groundwork for the COP conferences which take place at the end of the year. Usually the UNF triple C has two such technical and implementation conferences. 1 is mid June and the other one.
00:02:29 Speaker 4
It's the week before the cops.
00:02:31 Speaker 4
Arts and they lay down the foundations for the discussions at the cop, so these participation at the Bonn Conference built on my previous experience at cops on my first cop experience, was COP 28 in Dubai and building on that experience, I think I was on a mission to follow 3 particular topics.
00:02:51 Speaker 4
Along cities, adaptation and research and systematic observation. So on cities cop 28 in Dubai we had for the first time a day allocated to City.
00:03:04 Speaker 4
And cities have been there in cop discussions for a while, probably starting back in Glasgow at COP 26. However, they don't feature very highly in the discussions at the moment, despite their important role in implementing some of the COP decisions. And they've written a very short piece on this.
00:03:24 Speaker 4
In the Parkland review, about the three key roles cities play in localising some of the decisions which are mainly around the fact that they are platforms for systemic and ambitious transform.
00:03:38 Speaker 4
Patients, they play a role in governing the climate crisis. Therefore, there be they should be acknowledged as sub national governments and they also should play a role in the way the different funds associated with the climate crisis, such as the loss and damage fund and the adaptation.
00:03:58 Speaker 4
Fund are actually allocated to nations. So despite these discussions, the cities are, as I said, not very much talked about in cop negotiation.
00:04:11 Speaker 4
And I think that highlight in bond was during the first week when the Champ Association, which stands for the Coalition for High Ambition Multi Level Partnership launched this UN Habitat report which highlights the need for greater emphasis on urban priorities.
00:04:31 Speaker 4
The second topic I followed throughout this negotiations is about adaptation. We know very well that a lot of work has been done around mitigation.
00:04:42 Speaker 4
But not much on adaptation, especially in relation to cities. So the discussions have started to pick up in born and there are already discussions around framework of indicators to measure this global goal of adaptation. And the questions I've been raising there is whether we are going to see any alignment.
00:05:02 Speaker 4
For example with the.
00:05:04 Speaker 4
Framework or any post SDG frameworks and the third topic I followed which is very dear to me as an academic and as a researcher, is a research and systemic systematic observation. So the role which research plays in informing these processes and I have to say that I've been sitting at the back of the rooms.
00:05:27 Speaker 4
Smuggled into the informal meetings and listening to specialists and negotiators biting my lips.
00:05:33 Speaker 4
And there is still a lot of disagreement. For example, on the research needs, gaps, capacities across region or the role that peak reports like the IPCC report should play in informing COP processes.
00:05:48 Speaker 2
Thank you so much for sharing your experiences both at Coke and Bone, and I think you rightly highlight that we're going to see population growth in our cities. So thinking about our future cities adaptation plans, how to finance those, but also how to make our cities more.
00:06:05 Speaker 2
Brilliant is going to be key and I've had the pleasure of accompanying you to the previous cop, which was in Dubai, but you also have Elaine with US Professor Ilan Kelman, who I know works a lot on risk disaster reduction, but he does not participate at COP and bond. And I was wondering why that was the case.
00:06:26 Speaker 3
No, hello. Thank you. And it's actually really exciting to hear the different perspectives. My interests are.
00:06:32 Speaker 3
And I like connecting. So I'm half at the Department for Risk and disaster reduction, half at the UCLA Institute for Global Health. The idea being to connect disasters and health using many different connectors, one of which among many is climate change. So when we consider all the vast connections, all the ways these topics are interlinked.
00:06:53 Speaker 3
There's so many international processes going on to simply focus and dedicate so much time and effort to one of them would neglect the others.
00:07:03 Speaker 3
Because we know that human caused climate change is one challenge among many, which we face and it's not per se A cause, it's actually more a symptom. When I try to connect disasters and health, including climate change, as a bridge, it's trying to understand these baseline causes.
00:07:23 Speaker 3
Why do we behave in such a way that we end up changing the climate rapidly and substantively as well so many other?
00:07:30 Speaker 3
Changes.
00:07:31 Speaker 3
So when we think about the fact that, as Kathleen said, there's these two bond meetings, there are at least a week each, then there's a cop, there are a couple of weeks that actually adds a lot of time including the preparation and the recovery and the follow up. So why just climate change when there's all these other topics, the other element, of course, is that the climate change cops are so popular.
00:07:52 Speaker 3
Everyone seems to want to go, so why should I necessary?
00:07:56 Speaker 3
Early resources are limited. I personally don't have a lot of interest in turning up to a €200 night hotel in Sharm El Seikh or Dubai that others want that so fair enough, when there's limited resources that those who are excited about it go for it and I'm happy to learn from them, including from Kathleen, who attends and you pretty you've attended.
00:08:17 Speaker 3
As well as taking a remote perspective and saying what can we achieve when we're not actually physically present, how can we ensure?
00:08:27 Speaker 3
That we get the outcomes and promote the ideas without going through these 16 or 18 hour days which others have to experience.
00:08:36 Speaker 1
So would you say in some way there's an inequality?
00:08:39 Speaker 1
Here that we're presenting that everything is focused a lot of money, a lot of value to the cop, but there's not that equality with the other STD's.
00:08:48 Speaker 3
This is part of the challenge. We always know there is never a quality, there's never equity and this applies to the SDG's. But that's and beyond the SDG's. BSG's themselves are so limited, and I think this is an open question which people are researching and we don't have answers.
00:09:05 Speaker 3
Why has human caused climate change ended up dominating so much, and why are people so focused on human caused climate change when we not only have the other 16 SDG's, but we have all the topics which aren't covered in the SDG's?
00:09:21 Speaker 4
Yeah, I would like to add to that. I fully agree with Elan here and my mission at the cops. So it took me about a year to work it out.
00:09:30 Speaker 4
It's actually to lobby for the fact that climate is not an island. The climate crisis is not on itself. We have many crises around. We have the biodiversity loss, we have pollution, we have land degradation, and that's my mission to actually spread the word that is not only climate change, it's also all the other.
00:09:51 Speaker 4
This disease and is not the climate change which impacts on the SDGS we well know that SDGS like poverty, inequality, health, and their own impact on climate change and these relationships. So my mission actually at the discourse is to open up that this.
00:10:09 Speaker 4
Discussion a little bit and take into consideration the bigger picture and I think this should also be an area of research where we should contribute. I think that why we put so many efforts into these processes, cops and spies, which stands for subsidiary bodies, so are the technical and implementation machines.
00:10:30 Speaker 4
Behind the cops.
00:10:31 Speaker 4
It's because the way these international organisations work, so the UNF triple C, which is the UN framework for climate change conventions, is very nicely linked into these political processes and negotiation processes, which is the cops and the SB's, and really nicely backed by the.
00:10:52 Speaker 4
By PCC reports and others, very strong scientific assessment.
00:10:57 Speaker 4
While other processes, for example, there is the UN app for example, which works on other assessments.
00:11:03 Speaker 4
So the global Environment outlook assessment, I am involved with, which is not so Nice, which looks at the complexity and the multitude of this crisis we have to deal with, not only climate crisis, but they are not so nicely linked into a international policy process. So that's why I think we talk so much.
00:11:24 Speaker 4
About climate crisis, I fully agree with you. It's not only the climate crisis, it's much more and this is, I think, what we should have. We need to open.
00:11:32 Speaker 4
Up and think about other things as well, not climate crisis, climate crisis. And once we do that and transform across other areas of human activity, climate crisis will probably have better outcomes.
00:11:46 Speaker 3
What is particularly interesting with all of these different processes is the climate change one is aiming for a legally binding treaty. The SDG's are not. The Sendai framework is not. The urban agenda is not all the other ones, including the Addis Ababa.
00:12:06 Speaker 3
On on Development Fund.
00:12:08 Speaker 3
Are not legally binding, so again, exac is Monica raised. We have inequality. Why is climate change elevated so much in the international system when human caused climate change is a symptom, not a fundamental cause?
00:12:25 Speaker 2
And I like your point about opening multiple doors and exploring those.
00:12:29 Speaker 2
Into linkages. So at UCL have been leading a piece of work on identifying links between sanitation infrastructure and.
00:12:38 Speaker 2
Which Monica has very much been part of this work from day one and that we identified synergies between sanitation and 130 out of the 169 targets and all seventeen goals, which shows that you need good infrastructure systems to deliver on sustainable development goals.
00:12:57 Speaker 2
Including climate action and this once again shows that interconnection and the value addition of multiple kind of disciplines and intervention.
00:13:08 Speaker 2
To address some of the background challenges facing us.
00:13:12 Speaker 1
Which really brings me to a change, maybe in the way the government's presenting the position, so it was good to see recently that the UK's ambassador to the UN, Dame Barbara Woodward, she actually restated the government's commitment to the SDG's at the UN Assembly. And she did talk about multiple things such as global poverty, political instability.
00:13:30 Speaker 1
And climate change and that these were core parts of that mission. Now that's maybe a change for us.
00:13:35 Speaker 1
Just wondering, do you really think that is just a speech or do you think it marks a change in policy priorities given the UK's lack of progress as we know, and we've actually discussed in this podcast against the goals in recent years?
00:13:49 Speaker 4
I welcome that speech. There were other important things mentioned in that speech. So the reference to local leadership.
00:13:56 Speaker 4
Which is very dear to my heart again, coming very closely to how we govern and to look after our cities. Also acknowledging the link between CC and other crises. So like the biodiversity loss, pollution and land degradation there was mentioned.
00:14:12 Speaker 4
And of course, the importance of mobilising some of the climate finance which we need to bring about these transformations and mitigate and adapt to to the multiple crises in the lead to the elections I was pulling over the two party manifestos, and I was a little worried that I don't see much reference to climate.
00:14:33 Speaker 4
Local.
00:14:35 Speaker 4
Sustainability and the main reference was around environmental nature, greenery, but I have high hopes we have a good minister at Miliband for Department of Energy Security and at zero and we have a very ambitious ministry, Angela Rayner for the housing and.
00:14:54 Speaker 4
Communities and I'm referring to these two because I'm looking very much at the sustainable housing target SDG, 11.1 and trying to understand how this will work over the two ministries. So hopefully fingers crossed, things will work out over the next four years.
00:15:11 Speaker 4
In terms of how well we've been doing, I think that UK has been lagging behind for a long time now. So we've been pioneering for the first time climate change into national legislation with the 2008 Climate Act, but not doing really well since and this is probably coming from the fact my research.
00:15:32 Speaker 4
That stages are very much seen in relation to developing contexts in this country because they were very much driven by two ministries associated with development, where the Department for International Development and the Foreign and Commonwealth and Development Office. The other problem we had with the SDG's.
00:15:52 Speaker 4
The words that this very reference to how these targets and indicators could be localised and implemented at the.
00:16:00 Speaker 4
Local level and just to sum up is that there are traditionally in the UK associated with developing context, so if there is that cultures and we do not need them where they they are not relevant to a develop context such as the UK. Looking at the SDG target 11.1 sustainable housing inadequate.
00:16:20 Speaker 4
Housing in this country, that's the the country is we really need them. And if we start to measure some of these outcomes, they really don't look well. There is very little awareness at the local level at the municipal level. So there have been other priorities such as Brexit plans, climate action plans and recovery plans following the COVID.
00:16:39 Speaker 4
And there's been a lot of lack of funding to try to understand research wise or implementation wise and unpack.
00:16:48 Speaker 4
This as digs.
00:16:49 Speaker 3
I mean, for me it it's good to hear thinking about the wider issues and connecting them. My question to anyone promoting any government policy, how evidence based is.
00:17:01 Speaker 3
So I'm not too concerned that major parties did not emphasise low carbon greenhouse gases are not just about carbon. There are highly potent greenhouse gases orders of magnitude worse than carbon dioxide, which actually don't have carbon. And so we need to be thinking.
00:17:21 Speaker 3
About low greenhouse gas or even better, low pollution, it's ironic that dealing with climate change, which is about reducing greenhouse gas emissions and increasing their uptake, offers nothing different than standard pollution prevention. So why are we separating climate change? Even a different SDG?
00:17:40 Speaker 3
We.
00:17:41 Speaker 3
Rather than just saying you know what, how about low pollution? How about stopping pollution? Or fair enough, we need to specialise. You're talking about climate change. Don't talk about carbon. Talk about greenhouse gases. Similarly, when we talk about phrases like climate crisis, climate emergency, climate chaos, where is the evidence that these phrases are useful? First, it's actually not.
00:18:01 Speaker 3
Climate it's human caused climate change. Second, it's not about the climate per se, because if we deal with it, then we're going to be OK. The point is, we don't deal with it. It really comes from fundamental human values, attitudes, behaviours and approaches.
00:18:17 Speaker 3
So when a government person gives a speech, are they talking about climate and climate change and what the environment is doing to us or the saying, you know what? It's us. We have to change. And then, of course, this crisis ification is very despairing when people say, well, we're going to die and it's a climate crisis and oh, my goodness, we wave our.
00:18:37 Speaker 2
And say it's like an emergency.
00:18:39 Speaker 3
Well, people do feel despondent, which is understandable.
00:18:43 Speaker 3
As mentioned, it's not a framing which is really evidence based and we do have to be worried. There is no doubt we are changing the climate in the wider environment quickly and substantively, and we should not be doing it. On the other hand, there's so much that we have to offer. So where is climate hope rather than climate grief? Where is equal inspiration?
00:19:03 Speaker 3
Of an equal anxiety and this is the evidence base.
00:19:08 Speaker 3
We have come so far in the past decades and centuries on pollution prevention, on trying to deal with disasters, on recognising what the issues are with humanity and how to solve them. We have so much to offer and a long way to go. So let's say we aren't trouble. We are causing problems. But it's us who are the.
00:19:27 Speaker 3
Crisis. It's a crisis of human values and attitudes, not of climate or environment or biodiversity, or if we actually want to be really honest and really evidence based.
00:19:37 Speaker 3
It's not just the fossil fuels and oil companies crisis, it's actually a human over consumption crisis.
00:19:44 Speaker 1
But do you not think just being devil's advocate here, do you not think that when we use evidence based language, we're talking really to ourselves? And when you're out there talking to communities, the public want to attract their attention? So there is a translation of what we find, what's evidence, and then translating that.
00:19:47 Speaker 3
Of course.
00:20:04 Speaker 1
And to a marketing speak just to to say it that way is is you know if you don't put that drama on it.
00:20:11 Speaker 1
Is anybody actually going to listen to?
00:20:13 Speaker 3
Well, the climate crisis, education hasn't worked. We're heading into cop 29, and they have not been every year they have been going on longer than many activists have been alive, and we've now started the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change 7th assessment.
00:20:33 Speaker 3
So we have the evidence that the crisis fication focusing on climate, human caused climate change has not worked.
00:20:39 Speaker 3
Then the question is what is the alternative and if we're going to, say, equal grief, will equal hope is the same number of syllables. If we're going to say climate crisis, climate hope is actually fewer syllables if I ask the public, do you want lower taxes? Do you want a healthier life?
00:20:59 Speaker 3
Do you want less stress? Well, I can give you those solutions.
00:21:04 Speaker 3
I don't see that as speaking to ourselves. It is evidence based, and it's also trying to bring on board people in a positive act of realistic approach. It has to be balanced because we don't want to go out and say, oh, I'm going to offer you this element of hopium, right, the fundamental baseline of hope that's just unrealistic.
00:21:24 Speaker 3
There are problems people are suffering even in this country. It's devastating the number of families who cannot even put enough food on the table.
00:21:34 Speaker 3
So going out saying or climate crisis claim emergency climate chaos.
00:21:38 Speaker 3
Isn't going to engage them. It's not going to help them as opposed again. Do you want to pay lower taxes? Do you want your kids to be safe? Do you want food on the table? Connect the topics, solve peoples daily concerns on their terms exactly as you're saying, Monica. And by definition, we actually stop human caused climate change.
00:21:58 Speaker 3
On an evidence.
00:21:59 Speaker 2
Basis and this opens up a good question around the role of universities.
00:22:03 Speaker 2
So yes, we do the science. We look at the evidence base, but clearly there seems to be a peace around science, communication and engagement and how we engage on this topic. The language we use. And I mean one of those would be conferences and I'm going to come back Catalan to you to talk about your participation in the bone.
00:22:24 Speaker 2
Climate change.
00:22:26 Speaker 2
To.
00:22:27 Speaker 2
Discuss a little bit about the benefits of academic engagement in those kind of events and forums where you'll have stakeholders from public sector, private sector, civil society.
00:22:38 Speaker 4
I think that universities more generally, but again this is my view because it's very much framed by the area of my research and because I work very much.
00:22:47 Speaker 4
On providing evidence to policy making processes, I think they have a role and should take a role into this process.
00:22:55 Speaker 4
And I think that UCL over the last couple of years under the leadership of the Grand Challenge climate crisis, has made important strides and we are starting a discussion around a lot of the topics and you'll be seeing more on that watch out this space for me as an academic. So last year was the first time I was involved in a cop.
00:23:16 Speaker 4
I went through a three phase kind of experience the first couple of days were baffling. The whole process seemed as a black box. I couldn't get my.
00:23:26 Speaker 4
Around I didn't understand where the different things. However you go through this first phase and you go into the frustration couple of days when you start asking yourself how, how can I help? What am I doing here? I'm disagreeing with a lot of the things are said here. These are things which have been studied and we have evidence.
00:23:47 Speaker 4
Or answering to these questions, why do we need to discuss them again?
00:23:51 Speaker 4
And then the third phase came, which was towards the end of the my first week in Dubai, which is a quite humbling experience because you see all these problems on the table. They are big, they are frustrating. They are baffling. But then you start to reflect on what you know and what your knowledge and try to try to understand how your knowledge.
00:24:12 Speaker 4
Actually fits into these processes. What it fits, which makes you reflect on your work and on the basis of that, I kind of think that there are three categories of academics go into this process.
00:24:24 Speaker 4
This, and I think they all have their roles and as an academic being in one of the categories, you have certain benefits which come into your research and and the wider impact you make. I have to say this, these processes are not for ivory towers academics, they are for academics who are interested.
00:24:44 Speaker 4
In getting involved in these processes, so the three categories for me are the diplomacy academics who are the people who speak loud.
00:24:54 Speaker 4
Who care about how the science gets into these processes? They talk about hope. They talk about anxiety. They are very vocal and very fresh and very powerful. But you have to have certain skills and you have to communicate in a certain way with certain types of scientists who really advise in these processes.
00:25:14 Speaker 4
You have to be able to engage in that dialogue. Perhaps here at UCL we are not great there.
00:25:19 Speaker 4
A number of individuals already doing that, but this is something as a scientist we should get better at if we want to get involved in these processes.
00:25:27 Speaker 4
There is a.
00:25:28 Speaker 4
Second category of researchers who are really interested in studying the processes on the power dynamics between the different actors involved in these processes and how they.
00:25:40 Speaker 4
Influence these processes and they do that in order to understand how to benefit these processes and how to make them better work better, have better outcomes, think about perhaps the food on the table for the most vulnerable.
00:25:56 Speaker 4
And there is 1/3 category of student of researchers where I think I kind of find myself who are really interested about the gaps, the needs and the capacity across regions. What is really needed, how my knowledge can actually support and provide the evidence for that policy process to get better.
00:26:16 Speaker 3
Thank you. I mean, now that's really insightful and helpful and certainly in a process we're shouting, the loudest is hurt the most. Doesn't to me.
00:26:26 Speaker 3
Epitomise equity equality, justice or what we're aiming for. I also do find within academics a lot of those who are shouting the loudest, whether it's a cop or in other venues, tend to be those who are least ingrained.
00:26:41 Speaker 3
In climate change science.
00:26:43 Speaker 3
I mean, we talked about all these strange phrases and the latest I heard was climate obstruction.
00:26:49 Speaker 3
And I respond saying, how do we obstruct the climate? I didn't get an answer and even a simple phrase. I mean, we know it is perfectly accepted in climate change signs that the number of tropical cyclones, hurricanes, typhoons and cyclones that number is decreasing because of human caused climate change that's accepted. I mean, there's no debate in that intensity is increasing.
00:27:09 Speaker 3
That number is decreasing. I've thrown that statement out a few times and had incredibly adverse reactions from scientists even trying to explain the basics that actually we can deal with disasters if we.
00:27:23 Speaker 3
Down to, there's no such thing as a natural disaster because it comes from us and our choices, political power and resource allocation. And people still say. But all disasters are increasing because of climate change, and we know that is not true. Then there's a phrase while all weather is getting worse because of climate change and my response is, well, aside from the tropical cyclones.
00:27:43 Speaker 3
Climate change is global warming. How is cold weather getting worse under global warming and the simple, straightforward, fully evidence based statements?
00:27:55 Speaker 3
Upset a lot of people who are shouting the loudest in climate change realms, including climate change, scientific realms.
00:28:08 Speaker 1
We've touched on a few things, really building on what you came to talk to us last time that was more on how to achieve the goals in a warming world. And today we're really talking much more about the global community into linkages, the need for these interlinkages and the need for us to consider things interacting with each other really and not in their silos.
00:28:28 Speaker 1
Is and it's going to be interesting when we have the grand challenges, of course, we've now got it for climate and how that's going to address some of your questions really about the inequity and inequality, etcetera. My next question really is about this interlinkages do you think the global community is starting to understand how interlinked these issues are or is that just something?
00:28:49 Speaker 1
Us to talk about.
00:28:50 Speaker 3
In this room, I hope that we can take this far, far beyond this room, exactly as we've all been saying to the cops. Please, Catalina and Freddy take it to the cops. As you are doing, and also ensuring that the public is on board.
00:29:02 Speaker 3
I don't see a lot of change over recent years. A lot of people again will put out or we have to connect. We have to link and particularly when the COVID-19 pandemic started, the amount of material being published saying we've now all these crises COVID-19 and climate change and biodiversity, and they're all linked and we need to do something about it.
00:29:23 Speaker 3
And that was it. There was no real understanding of what the links are were. If there were really fundamental links, there was no explanation.
00:29:36 Speaker 3
Of what is a symptom and what is a cause?
00:29:39 Speaker 3
There was no suggestion on constructive ways forward, apart from, of course, green reconstruction post pandemic recovery, which addresses human caused climate change and biodiversity. Plenty of ideas, plenty of plans and we have not seen that action. How do we draw people together?
00:29:59 Speaker 3
How do we make these evidence based?
00:30:01 Speaker 3
Links. This is a challenge and it's easy to criticise. I mean, after all, I've done a lot during this podcast. Where are the solutions? How can we be solution? Evidence focused rather than simply saying. Actually, we've known these problems for 20 or 40 years and we're still promoting the same problematic approaches.
00:30:22 Speaker 4
Yeah, I think I am a little bit more hopeful about interlinkages. So I've been involved for the last two years in the so-called global Environment Outlook assessment with you, an app which is due to be published in 2026.
00:30:39 Speaker 4
And this is a document. It's not like the IPCC report, but it's an evidence based assessment which very much looks at these interlinkages. So we have 140 team of scientists trying to work out how these interlinkages we we look at 5 particular systems, the environment, economic.
00:30:58 Speaker 4
Food, energy and resources.
00:31:00 Speaker 4
Polarity and we try to work out how these interlinkages will be actually driving forward transformation. What I want to say is that interlinkages are there, but they are so so tricky because they are complex and it's very difficult to get your head around as a policy.
00:31:21 Speaker 4
Maker or a decision maker because they are complex, so they don't necessarily churn out an outcome or output.
00:31:29 Speaker 4
You would be interested to measure as a somebody on the ground, but they think they have hope. People have started to think about them. We have the discussion around negative positive tipping points, positive negative loops, feedback loops feeding into the different systems and the reason understanding, at least at the unmap level.
00:31:49 Speaker 4
That we need to do something about them and we need to somehow measure them and show them how important they are in transforming systems. But I think the literature on inter languages has been growing over the last 10 years or so.
00:32:04 Speaker 4
And this also related to other bodies of literature around the SDG frameworks on localization, because I think one of the problems we have with interlinkages is because they're so complex and then it's the discussion on how you collapse then down to the implementation level. So it's this discussion between horizontal, vertical and multi level.
00:32:24 Speaker 4
Governance processes which have to take on this.
00:32:27 Speaker 4
Linkages. So there is a lot of discussion around the localization and how we localise interlinkages when at where we stop to look at an SDG and how it links across what kind of boundaries. And I think that's also feeding into the third body of literature at the moment, which has been starting to emerge as we speak.
00:32:47 Speaker 4
Ground Post 2030 SDG frameworks.
00:32:50 Speaker 4
So are we going to see more SDG's simplified SDGS? And there you have very much a discussion between continuation and transformation kind of advocators. There are people who say the SDK's frameworks are still valid, we still need to measure to ensure continuity, but we have to get better.
00:33:12 Speaker 4
That measuring and acknowledging the interlinkages. So it's not enough to deal with climate crisis. We have to look at other things. Inequality, poverty, health and so own partnerships. How we work with each other in society and so on. And then you have the transformation kind of scholars who say.
00:33:29 Speaker 4
This stags haven't worked. It's too complex. We need to bring in other things like digital transformation, inequality and inequality, geopolitics, health, security and climate change, for example, make these things bigger and transform the SDG framework.
00:33:47 Speaker 2
Unlike your optimism.
00:33:49 Speaker 2
And the use of transformation and I hope that the interlinkages provide a pathway for that and I want to bring the conversation back to the fact and Ella and I think you speak about this quite eloquently, that this is human caused climate change.
00:34:06 Speaker 2
And we are responsible for it and in effect it means as people, we have the power of addressing it, and we've seen that outside this room, outside academia over the last few years, there has been an increase in grassroot activism from groups like Extinction, Rebellion and just stop. Oil, do you think?
00:34:26 Speaker 2
Outside academia, we're seeing a shift in people's willingness to speak up.
00:34:31 Speaker 3
I don't sense a lot of change when I do speak to people and try and promote these interlinkages and understand their concern.
00:34:41 Speaker 3
A lot of the reaction is that those who are in the groups dealing with climate change activism are seen as elitist.
00:34:50 Speaker 3
And separate.
00:34:52 Speaker 3
They are also seen as causing immense damage to these issues and to what actually interests people who are struggling day-to-day.
00:35:03 Speaker 3
How does damaging art?
00:35:06 Speaker 3
Support environmentalism.
00:35:09 Speaker 3
They admitted that they made a huge mistake.
00:35:13 Speaker 3
In stopping and disrupting public transportation lines.
00:35:17 Speaker 3
And we didn't need academics telling them beforehand that to support climate change, you might want to support public transport. They also promote a lot of the scientific myths which we mentioned earlier. And when they do so, even people who are on board means that scientific understanding is regressing.
00:35:37 Speaker 3
We have to enjoy.
00:35:40 Speaker 3
The freedoms that we have, we absolutely have to be acting on these challenging issues. But what I've seen with the groups mentioning is that they're not helping extensively. So why the activists screaming and yelling without an evidence basis, when in fact, if we want to convince people to act, we have the evidence base as it is, not about.
00:36:01 Speaker 3
Climate change, and I think Catalina was absolutely right. These interconnections are difficult. They're complex. That's role of scientists not to publish our 40,000 word papers or 400,000 word books. I mean, we love that, but it's our job also.
00:36:15 Speaker 3
To communicate better, these interlinkages and the difficulties and the complexities, we're all than just saying, Oh well, it's heart, because we do have the ways forward and part of that I'm curious, Catalina, with the global environmental outlook, when we look at say three call processes, climate change, biodiversity and desertification, how much influence do you think the global environmental.
00:36:36 Speaker 3
Outlook has on those three cop processes compared to the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate.
00:36:41 Speaker 4
Change. I do not think they have a a big, big say because they are not linked into a political process, so the IPC is linked into the COP process, which is very political, so it has a big.
00:36:55 Speaker 4
Voice the interlinkages from the Geo assessments are there, but they are not necessarily linked into a political, so it doesn't really have a voice. It's something I'm putting forward and keep saying, you know, we have all this very interesting discussion and very complex discussion here, but we actually do not fit into a political process.
00:37:15 Speaker 4
So, but that's maybe something for places like UCL to bring in some of these people and start that discussion and make that discussion into.
00:37:24 Speaker 4
Something bigger and put it on the politicians table and I'm working on that. Hopefully we'll bring some of the, you know, people to to start that.
00:37:33 Speaker 4
I think I would like to bring up another point. People and humans, the human race, have been very bad at partnering with any other species. We've destroyed everything, so we are really bad. We think we are exceptional and we will come up with a fix to whatever problem is I think.
00:37:52 Speaker 4
I am slightly of a different opinion. I think we should consider the environment and nature as an equal partner with agency.
00:38:01 Speaker 4
At the table of negotiations on climate change is not human agency, it's natural agency. This is some of the ideas I'm trying to philtre into the Geo report. It's it's a very strong idea and it's very new that knowledge, nature as one of the partners, as one of the.
00:38:21 Speaker 4
They called us. It's something other cultures, indigenous cultures, for example, and eastern philosophy has worked with for millennia.
00:38:31 Speaker 4
So people in China, India and other countries, the Amazonian forests, they work with nature, they see nature as an equal partner and it needs to be that fine, balanced achieved. So I think that's something we can learn from from other cultures and bring back into the Western civilization.
00:38:51 Speaker 4
I also think that the fossil fuel is mainly our problem is the problem of the Western countries developed countries.
00:38:58 Speaker 4
And I think I'm finding it difficult to justify it for countries in their early stages of development where perhaps they do not have any other options. Perhaps they need to subsidise fossil fuel because that it's the oil which runs their economy and put on the table the little.
00:39:18 Speaker 4
Good for them. Vulnerable. I'm not saying that's justified. I'm saying that us as the developed part of the world, we should hope these nations to come up with alternatives. I agree fossil fuel needs to be stopped because it's causing global warming.
00:39:37 Speaker 4
But again, we have an inequality there and how we are going to deal that with that and how we are going to support those who have supported us through millennia to get to the level of development we are at today to actually go over that threshold. So I think it's a very political sensitive discussion.
00:39:58 Speaker 4
And I think us who have the resources and tools and the finance are not very good at putting forward in these discussions. So a lot of the difficult negotiations.
00:40:10 Speaker 4
Around, you know, stopping fossil fuel, it's coming for that friction between countries in a certain level of development and developed countries who can perhaps afford very easily to say we do not support fossil fuel industries.
00:40:26 Speaker 4
We do not have the solution. I think we should stop, but something, definitely something we should think about.
00:40:31 Speaker 3
And this is so wonderful to hear because this is exactly what we need. It is so often absent from the climate change discussions to me, it's not about us telling them it's actually we can learn from everyone.
00:40:44 Speaker 3
And the countries who may be seen to be less developed if we like that language, actually so much to offer us some exchange. And So what you say about the global environmental outlook is wonderful. The climate change panel has struggled to include indigenous vernacular local traditional knowledge as they've been asked for years.
00:40:53 Speaker 4
Fully agree.
00:41:05 Speaker 3
And for some reason can have an approach, even though we can offer them plenty.
00:41:10 Speaker 3
The IPCC's definition of climate justice is entirely human centric. And of course, IPCC is an intergovernmental panel. Scientists appointed by their governments. It is a political process, so it sounds like maybe we need a more more of a global environmental outlook and less of an intergovernmental panel on climate change.
00:41:32 Speaker 1
And it sounds like both our leads for the grand challenge of climate crisis Professor Lisa Van Halla and Professor Mark Maslin are really going to have a lot to do. They're going to need to talk to everybody, bring into linkages into that really be quite inclusive in in this dialogue.
00:41:48 Speaker 1
But maybe Alan, you also want to suggest changing it from climate crisis to climate hope as well.
00:41:53 Speaker 3
I would definitely avoid phrases, climate crisis, climate emergency. The crisis is part of it. It's an over consumption crisis. It's a human values crisis. We need action and the evidence is there. Why don't we talk about simply eco hope and eco inspiration, which by definition encompasses climate rather than focusing on only.
00:42:13 Speaker 3
Yeah.
00:42:14 Speaker 1
So I look forward to the narrative changing and let's see where.
00:42:17 Speaker 2
This goes and I look forward to seeing more research on nature and people positive solutions moving away from a very narrow silent focus. Thank you both for joining us today.
00:42:31 Speaker 2
Where can listeners find you online?
00:42:34 Speaker 4
Have three places. It's the UCL SDG research accelerator which is one of the research initiatives under the Barclay School of Planning, and it's also the legacy of.
00:42:46 Speaker 4
Incl. Cities Programme Stockholm which collects all the research around these topics but also the active proactive policy support and engagement and the different public dialogues we are engaging with. The second place will be my LinkedIn profile, so I'm trying to keep it quite alive and the third place.
00:43:06 Speaker 4
Will be my short PCs or postcards in the Bartlett Review and other media outlets.
00:43:14 Speaker 3
And for me, he land here really. Just do a search on my name. You can find me over a good proportion of social media for.
00:43:21 Speaker 3
They're bad. I'm on LinkedIn, I'm on X, I'm on Instagram. I'm on Mastodon, I'm on blue sky. I'm on threads and I have a Psychology Today blog. If you like old approaches, I actually read my e-mail, so you're welcome to e-mail me too. I look forward to learning from you and please interact so that we can all do Better Together.
00:43:41 Speaker 2
Wonderful. Thank you so much. You've been listening to unlocking the SVGS.
00:43:46 Speaker 2
This episode was presented by me Professor Priti Parikh
Speaker 1
and me Professor Monica Lakhanpal and produced by the UCL SDG's initiative and edited by Front Ear.
Speaker 2
Our guests today were Professor Catalina Turcu and Professor Ilan Kelman, and if you would like to hear more podcasts from UCL, subscribe to UCL.
00:44:07 Speaker 1
Lines wherever you download your podcasts or visit www.ucl.ac.uk/SDG, join us next time on unlocking the SDG's.