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🎙️ THE Conversation is a monthly podcast that brings together diverse voices to engage in honest, courageous, and deeply relevant discussions about race and justice. Co-hosted by The Rev. Will Mebane and Onjalé Scott Price, this award-winning series was created by Falmouth Community Television (FCTV) to open dialogue and foster education on issues of racial equity—starting at the local level and rippling outward.
Each episode features panel discussions, community voices, and expert guests who explore how racism and bias shape our everyday lives across institutions such as education, healthcare, housing, religion, and more. With a focus on awareness, action, and community connection, THE Conversation aims to inspire lasting, meaningful change—one conversation at a time.
Originally launched in 2020, the show has received the Rika Welch Community Impact Award and continues to spark partnerships, elevate marginalized voices, and support anti-bias education throughout Cape Cod and beyond.
Listen and be part of THE Conversation—because change starts with listening.
00;00;11;29 - 00;00;19;04
Rev. Will Mebane
00;00;19;07 - 00;00;31;09
Rev. Will Mebane
00;00;31;12 - 00;01;06;10
Rev. Will Mebane
Welcome to an episode of The Conversation, our 20th episode here on Kttv. Delighted that you are making the time to spend some time with us. And we hope that you will enjoy the conversation. Tonight's subject is one that is, becoming very popular. That's in the news a lot. It's on Juneteenth, and we are going to be discussing the history of this new federal holiday, why people should celebrate it, and perhaps more importantly, why don't we know more about it?
00;01;06;12 - 00;01;39;29
Rev. Will Mebane
And so we have a distinguished group of panelists to be with us. I'm glad to be joined by our co-host, the Vice Chair of the Select Board of Falmouth, the Honorable Angela Scott Price, to share in this conversation. But we're going to hear from some people on the street first to see what they have to say in response to the question, what is Juneteenth?
00;01;40;01 - 00;02;10;14
Mark Long
Yeah. So Juneteenth as a specific event is a moment in history, in June 19th, 1865, when general Granger, a Union General Granger, occupied or came to Galveston, and read that sort of general order number three, which announced the sort of the freeing of the slaves, the end of slavery in the United States. It was late in Texas because of Texas, the distance of Texas from the East Coast, from a lot of the fighting from the centers of power.
00;02;10;14 - 00;02;31;14
Mark Long
And so Texas was sort of the last state in which this order was brought by federal troops, which also allowed the enforcement of of the order, to begin with. So it's unique in that way, and that it was really the last moment, the last, defeated Confederate state to sort of have this sort of official federal, Union, pronouncement of the freeing of or the ending of slavery.
00;02;31;17 - 00;03;01;17
Robin Joyce Miller
Juneteenth happened, on June 19th, 1865. General Gordon Granger of the Union Army headed to Galveston, Texas, to take over the Aston Villa from the Confederate Army on the balcony. He read the Emancipation Proclamation to everyone there, including the enslaved people. This was the last day of slavery, so it was a day of celebration. It's also known as Jubilee Day.
00;03;01;20 - 00;03;23;02
Robin Joyce Miller
And so this is my, my quilt, my Juneteenth quilt. And I show on here, Juneteenth, June 19th, 1865, Aston Villa here in Texas. Here you have Major General Gordon Granger. It says Emancipation Proclamation. Here we have freedom. And at the bottom.
00;03;23;02 - 00;03;23;24
Robin Joyce Miller
You have.
00;03;24;00 - 00;03;38;29
Robin Joyce Miller
The enslaved. Let's see if we can see it better. The enslaved, People rejoicing. And in this quilt, I put cotton along the bottom. Cotton here. And I have the American flag, and I.
00;03;38;29 - 00;03;39;12
Robin Joyce Miller
Have.
00;03;39;12 - 00;03;45;19
Robin Joyce Miller
The Juneteenth flag. So, that's really what Juneteenth is about.
00;03;45;24 - 00;03;48;27
Krissie Williams
Basically, you know, we were still in the throes of the Civil
00;03;48;27 - 00;03;50;02
Krissie Williams
War.
00;03;50;04 - 00;03;50;21
Krissie Williams
And.
00;03;50;22 - 00;03;51;10
Robin Joyce Miller
00;03;51;10 - 00;03;52;27
Krissie Williams
Abraham Lincoln.
00;03;53;00 - 00;03;54;19
Krissie Williams
He had actually, freed the.
00;03;54;19 - 00;03;57;11
Krissie Williams
Slaves with the Emancipation Proclamation in,
00;03;57;14 - 00;03;59;15
Krissie Williams
1863 to.
00;03;59;16 - 00;04;00;19
Krissie Williams
Two and a half years.
00;04;00;19 - 00;04;02;19
Krissie Williams
Earlier. On January.
00;04;02;19 - 00;04;03;11
Krissie Williams
First, 18.
00;04;03;11 - 00;04;05;09
Krissie Williams
63. And,
00;04;05;11 - 00;04;05;29
Krissie Williams
What they me a.
00;04;05;29 - 00;04;09;12
Krissie Williams
Special proclamation basically said was that any.
00;04;09;12 - 00;04;10;17
Krissie Williams
Slaves that were being.
00;04;10;17 - 00;04;22;13
Krissie Williams
Held in any of the Confederate states were now free. Well, somehow that little tidbit of information did not get back to the slaves in Texas. Unfortunately.
00;04;22;16 - 00;04;27;27
Krissie Williams
Texas hadn't seen much fighting of the Civil War during the Civil War. So they suspect that.
00;04;28;03 - 00;04;29;03
Krissie Williams
My, you know, I have.
00;04;29;03 - 00;04;29;20
Krissie Williams
Had something.
00;04;29;20 - 00;04;31;11
Krissie Williams
To do with it.
00;04;31;13 - 00;04;32;21
Krissie Williams
You also saw as.
00;04;32;21 - 00;04;36;16
Krissie Williams
The Civil War, got, you know, bloodier. You saw a.
00;04;36;16 - 00;04;37;02
Krissie Williams
Lot of.
00;04;37;02 - 00;04;40;27
Krissie Williams
Slave owners retreat and actually take their slaves to.
00;04;40;29 - 00;04;43;04
Krissie Williams
Texas to live.
00;04;43;07 - 00;04;47;10
Krissie Williams
And, there's also, there's also.
00;04;47;10 - 00;04;48;22
Krissie Williams
The thought, and I'm sure it's.
00;04;48;22 - 00;04;55;02
Krissie Williams
It's definitely the truth that a lot of slave owners did not tell,
00;04;55;05 - 00;04;56;25
Krissie Williams
Did not tell the slaves that they were.
00;04;56;25 - 00;04;58;09
Krissie Williams
Free because they wanted to wait till.
00;04;58;09 - 00;04;58;19
Krissie Williams
After.
00;04;58;19 - 00;05;01;05
Krissie Williams
Harvest season, believe it or not.
00;05;01;07 - 00;05;04;26
Krissie Williams
So I'm not surprised by this being a history teacher.
00;05;04;29 - 00;05;08;21
Krissie Williams
Basically, that's, you know, that's what Juneteenth is.
00;05;08;23 - 00;05;33;26
Sonia Tellier
I think one of the things that people often associated with is, is Freedom Day. It's another way of thinking about it. We've spent some time in talking with students, about the Emancipation Proclamation for so long and shifting towards really having them focus on the primary, source text of General Order number three, which, you know, the two year timeline in between and communicating that to students.
00;05;33;26 - 00;06;10;09
Sonia Tellier
But I think what's most important is in our conversations, talking about the fact that it's not a day off, from school or work to rest. It's not a day for commercialization, but really a day for learning and education and reflection. But we can't isolate it to that day. It has to be something that has a rippling effect in our actions, in our conversations, and really starts to reshape our culture and how we look at each other and what our thinking is around, racial and social justice.
00;06;10;12 - 00;06;35;01
Sonia Tellier
So I think Juneteenth, coming up to that level of being denoted as a holiday, elevates our consciousness and opens a conversation. But it's really a day about looking at who we are as a country. Thinking about the conflict in a strife in our past and, you know, collectively elevating that consciousness to, to push us forward, to be a better society, one that embraces everyone.
00;06;35;04 - 00;07;07;08
Rev. Will Mebane
Well, welcome back to the conversation. And, thanks to our people on the street, who were able to help us begin to understand what Juneteenth is. Just what is Juneteenth? I, I know in our church on Sunday, of Juneteenth, I said to the congregation, I bet if I asked you all how many of you have heard of Juneteenth and know what Juneteenth is, most of you wouldn't be able to answer the question.
00;07;07;10 - 00;07;32;08
Rev. Will Mebane
And I didn't embarrass in and one, I didn't ask anybody to raise a hand if they knew or didn't know about Juneteenth. But I saw a lot of heads nodding like, no, I really don't know what Juneteenth is. So we're going to begin with, that question and, I'm going to ask, LaMarche. Frazier from the, Museum of African-American history in Boston and Nantucket to respond, first of all, welcome.
00;07;32;10 - 00;08;15;09
Rev. Will Mebane
The merchant and the merchant is a visual artist. We have a chance to see some of her work, on the wall behind her. She's a public, historian and, an innovator. She also is, well versed in cross-cultural competencies and and topics. She's held residencies in Brazil, Taiwan, Costa Rica, Africa, France and Cuba. And, and she is a recent award recipient of the force, a museum educator award, educator award by the Massachusetts Council on Social Studies.
00;08;15;11 - 00;08;26;20
Rev. Will Mebane
So we are thrilled to have you with us. Le merci. And, ask you to begin by just explaining to us, somebody asked you, what is Juneteenth? Okay. What do you say?
00;08;26;22 - 00;08;39;22
L'Merchie Frazier
Well, first of all, I would like to preface that with acknowledging that we are on the land of the indigenous people and their descendants and remain there. They're our host, and we agree to be their good guests.
00;08;39;26 - 00;08;40;10
Rev. Will Mebane
Amen.
00;08;40;16 - 00;09;37;07
L'Merchie Frazier
Amen. With that, I can say that Juneteenth is a moment. It is June 19th, 1865. It is when General Order number three is read to the people. Who are enslaved in Galveston, Texas, as an announcement of the executive order signed by Abraham Lincoln that, denotes slavery is over, slavery has ended in all Confederate territories. And due to the fall of Richmond, Virginia, two months before that, in April of 1865, you have news shared with the people who are in Galveston, Texas.
00;09;37;10 - 00;10;09;02
L'Merchie Frazier
When we look at General Order number three, it says that the people are informed that in accordance with the proclamation, the Emancipation Proclamation is the one that they were referring to from the executive of the United States. All slaves are free. This involves an absolute equality of personal rights and rights of property, between between form of masters and slaves, and the connection here for existing between them become that between employer and hired labor.
00;10;09;05 - 00;10;43;23
L'Merchie Frazier
The free. We need to pay attention to this are advised to remain at their present homes quietly. They can work for wages. They inform that they will not be allowed to collect at military posts, and that there will be no idleness. Idleness tolerated. So that is the order. That is what we need to think about, whether it is a celebration or acknowledgment that we we set aside this day.
00;10;43;26 - 00;11;18;25
L'Merchie Frazier
Massachusetts was in 2007, was the 25th state to recognize Juneteenth as a holiday. So the adaptation of this past dates has, now been, circumscribed by a national towards the 2021 issue of this being a holiday. So as we think about Juneteenth, we want to think about the spaces we occupy, what those spaces mean, and what is the challenge that Juneteenth lands for us?
00;11;18;27 - 00;12;00;19
Rev. Will Mebane
Well, there are several phrases in that. Order that you read that caught my attention and caused me want to think and make me wonder about why that language. They felt that language was necessary, right. So in my way, it sounds like it's, was an effort to continue to control, to, and control the formerly enslaved, and I appreciate you also raising the point about, is it a is it a celebration or is it an acknowledgment?
00;12;00;22 - 00;12;26;04
Rev. Will Mebane
And I've had a couple of family members. Actually, I'm over here in Connecticut on vacation, and, one of our sons was saying to me, I'm not celebrating that. And I said, well, why not? And I said, that's it's it's a national holiday now. It's a federal holiday, and it's about freedom. And, he's like, he said, you know, I don't think it's anything to celebrate.
00;12;26;04 - 00;12;36;23
Rev. Will Mebane
I think it's, yeah, we want to acknowledge it. And he'd sort of use your language. So thank you for, for bringing me back to that, Lamar team.
00;12;36;25 - 00;12;39;20
L'Merchie Frazier
Of course, I enjoy this joy of being free.
00;12;39;25 - 00;12;41;15
Rev. Will Mebane
Yes, of course, and of course.
00;12;41;15 - 00;12;43;20
L'Merchie Frazier
Yeah, it comes with some context.
00;12;43;23 - 00;12;52;06
Rev. Will Mebane
Yes. And it's always important to have the context, which is I know you're doing at the museum.
00;12;52;08 - 00;12;52;26
L'Merchie Frazier
Absolutely.
00;12;52;27 - 00;13;28;27
Rev. Will Mebane
I mean, bring, Barbara Burgo into the conversation now. And Barbara is a known, I'm sure, to many folks here on, on the cape in the land of the Wampanoag. Thank you. We'll do that land acknowledgment that she is co-founder and clerk and curator of the Cape Cod Cape Verdean Museum and Cultural Center, located in East Falmouth. She is a former chair of the Barnstable County Human Rights Commission and vice chair of South Coastal County's Legal Services.
00;13;29;00 - 00;13;55;14
Rev. Will Mebane
She has a number of acknowledgments and awards to her, to her credit. And, before we ask you to respond to that question or maybe respond to what Lamberti said, Barbara, I want to extend to you a belated happy birthday, since your birthday was actually Juneteenth. So, I hope you celebrate it and not just acknowledge that.
00;13;55;16 - 00;13;58;24
Rev. Will Mebane
Hope you celebrate it. That so? Well.
00;13;58;27 - 00;14;00;11
Barbara Burgo
Thank you very much.
00;14;00;15 - 00;14;11;20
Rev. Will Mebane
Welcome to the show. Welcome to the show. And, so how would you respond to either what you said are, respond to the question, what is Juneteenth?
00;14;11;23 - 00;14;40;15
Barbara Burgo
Right. So there you go. You you kind of, stole my thunder, but you honor me. No. Honor me. I am speaking, you know, as Barbara Burgo, not representative of the museum or anything else like that, because I have some real important things to say about Juneteenth. And what I say to people now, of course, is that,
00;14;40;18 - 00;15;11;04
Barbara Burgo
Well, I try to say first that it is a recognition, the fact that they that, Major General Gordon Granger, the day that he went to Galveston, Texas, to let that that that slaves know that they were free, sadly, of course, he went two years after they, the slaves were freed, the Emancipation Proclamation. And then I say, so that's first.
00;15;11;04 - 00;15;41;06
Barbara Burgo
And then, of course, it was, it was a I'm sorry, I forgot to shut off my my call. It was it is my birthday. But what I, what I also say was sad is sad. Lee, not only did it take the country 70 years to acknowledge it, but it would have been wonderful had I known as a younger person in high school or.
00;15;41;09 - 00;16;10;19
Barbara Burgo
Or earlier or even later, before I got into college in my 40s, that there was even such a celebration in this country of Juneteenth. So it is sad for me and for everyone that it took so long that you, you don't maybe want to call it a celebration. But again, just so folks do recognize it with parades and celebrations, I at least want the acknowledgment or the recognition.
00;16;10;22 - 00;16;29;24
Barbara Burgo
And it is all about slavery and being free. And I believe I heard you say that that it was 2007. I thought, didn't Massachusetts just recognize it as a holiday in 2020?
00;16;29;26 - 00;16;54;17
L'Merchie Frazier
No. This, 2007 is on the books for acknowledging that, Emancipation Day, what was real and that this was the honoring of General Order number three being, announced to. Okay, so, I, I know what you're referring to, but that's another incident.
00;16;54;20 - 00;17;28;11
Barbara Burgo
Oh, okay. So that's what I want to clarify because as we all know, we are all trying to learn much more of our true history as we go along. And I would love to make sure we clarify it. And even I'm clear, my this was my 71st birthday. So it took us until last year when we when we held a Juneteenth celebration, because it was a Massachusetts and federal holiday that it's it's a shame that it has taken so long and there's so much more.
00;17;28;13 - 00;17;30;16
L'Merchie Frazier
I do I agree.
00;17;30;18 - 00;17;49;08
Rev. Will Mebane
Well, let's, let's give clarification to our audience. You raised the question, and I want to make sure our audience has clarity as well, about the discrepancy between 2007 and 2021. So the market, could you say, let's say a word or two more about that?
00;17;49;11 - 00;18;36;14
L'Merchie Frazier
Well, as Juneteenth rolls out as a celebration in 1866 and for going forward, there are states that, recognize it as a holiday, and Massachusetts is the 25th to do that. And that happens in 2007. So, not necessarily is it a a national holiday, but a time when we know that doesn't happen until 2021. But there is some acknowledgment that this was the day and connected to the Emancipation Proclamation, January 1st, 1863, which is known as Jubilee Day.
00;18;36;16 - 00;19;21;11
L'Merchie Frazier
There is marked confusion about well, is Juneteenth Jubilee Day or is the Emancipation Proclamation on January 1st, Jubilee Day. And so in each case, there is some jubilation. One when, Lincoln has issued the second Emancipation Proclamation on January 1st, the the first one being one that he had drafted, but he and his cabinet had drafted by July of 1862, which would have declared the territory of central Mexico, for the enslaved people to occupy.
00;19;21;13 - 00;19;45;11
L'Merchie Frazier
He didn't believe that we could get along together, black and white. And so he was, bent on there being a colony for enslaved people to go to. Frederick Douglass and other black leaders opposed him and said, oh, no, we're not going. No, no, you gotta change that. And so Lincoln, with his cabinet, then revised the Emancipation Proclamation.
00;19;45;13 - 00;20;12;29
L'Merchie Frazier
And by that time, a man whose name was Louis Hayden had asked Governor Andrew here in Boston to take a message to Lincoln, backed by the black leaders, to raise the Massachusetts 54 volunteer regiment to fight in the Civil War. And so when the second Emancipation Proclamation is actually rendered, January the 1st, everybody's waiting, on what night?
00;20;13;06 - 00;20;46;09
L'Merchie Frazier
December the 31st, to see that this is going to be done. They're like, oh, we don't believe he's going to sign it. And so there are those who are waiting in Boston, in the chapels and different places and musicals to celebrate that moment that it is signed and it is signed, but it on its margin, written in the margin is the, the, ability for Governor Andrew to be able to raise the Massachusetts 54th Volunteer Regiment, which will be the first black troop raised in the North to fight in the Civil War.
00;20;46;11 - 00;21;16;29
L'Merchie Frazier
And that becomes a part of a jubilant celebration. And as the, those soldiers are added to the Union forces, what becomes apparent, even though they do not win their first battle in, Fort Wagner, South Carolina, they add to the victory of the war. And it is Richmond, Virginia that has fallen by, April the 2nd, 1865.
00;21;17;01 - 00;21;46;15
L'Merchie Frazier
To give you some context about what happens here, is that the, it is the Confederate capital. And Jefferson Davis, who was head of the Confederacy, leaves one month before that. And rather than turn the the city over to the Union forces and, and free the enslaved people, they burn the city on April the 3rd, colored troops are coming as they were called.
00;21;46;17 - 00;22;22;28
L'Merchie Frazier
Colored troops are coming into Richmond, and they find people who are enslaved in jails. Sorry about that. They find people who are enslaved in jails and, singing songs of being free. And it is that news that reaches the governor of Texas, whose name is, Pendleton Murrah, who's been educated at Brown University. He is not willing to be, embarrassed by colored troops ushering him and his Confederate troops out of the city.
00;22;23;03 - 00;23;01;23
L'Merchie Frazier
So he flees to Mexico with his troops, with other Confederate, with other Confederate officials, so that they won't have to be disgraced by black men unseating them. So that is another part of why this secluded area of Texas has it heard exactly what's happening? But to defy that, the pipeline of news that has been established through underground railroad networks, through all kind of communication systems, has proven that black people had word of that.
00;23;01;25 - 00;23;35;00
L'Merchie Frazier
They had word of the Emancipation Proclamation. But this is a public announcement. And so when we get to the context of the Civil War and the reason that there has to be the 13th amendment added to the Constitution to say that slavery is over, that there is no more slavery. And then the 14th to, issued in 1868 to say that there's a right of black people to citizenship.
00;23;35;02 - 00;23;59;12
L'Merchie Frazier
Then the 15th amendment in 1870 that gives the right to vote for black men. These amendments are necessary in order to enforce what was being people who were kept unfree. Even though this massive patient proclamation and General Order number three have been issued.
00;23;59;14 - 00;24;09;02
Rev. Will Mebane
There's a reason you are the director of education for the Museum of African-American History in Boston. And then.
00;24;09;05 - 00;24;13;19
L'Merchie Frazier
Let me vote over both. But if we all get it right now, I don't know where are we going to get it right?
00;24;13;19 - 00;24;36;04
Rev. Will Mebane
Oh, I so, so much appreciate it. So love it. You have educated me and so, so many ways and, you know, one of the things you mentioned that we had a discussion in at home about where the black troops that were involved in going to Galveston, going to Texas, were they part of that or not? And so maybe we'll we'll come back to that.
00;24;36;05 - 00;24;37;12
Rev. Will Mebane
I want to bring.
00;24;37;14 - 00;24;38;14
Robin Joyce Miller
The question. Thank you.
00;24;38;20 - 00;25;10;12
Rev. Will Mebane
Bring a doctor. Ambrose. Gerald. And, to the conversation, the distinguished, doctor Ambrose. Gerald. He is well known to many folks here in, in, this part of the the Cape. Doctor Gerald is a retired scientists, in in fisheries. He's, spent a decade as director of academic education, in NOAA, NOAA's fisheries at Woods Hole.
00;25;10;12 - 00;25;46;20
Rev. Will Mebane
He retired in 2016 so he could spend more time with his lovely wife, Anna, and his wife of 47 years, and daughter, Saba and her husband, Mark, and his son Asa and his grandchildren. And he's very active in his church. I happen to know that because he's an active member of Saint Bernard Mathis Memorial Episcopal Church, where I serve and our other connection is that he was brought up in North Carolina, in rural North Carolina, and that has influenced his understanding of of the world, which, he is a part.
00;25;46;20 - 00;26;09;09
Rev. Will Mebane
And I'm delighted that you are a part of our conversation today. Ambrose I'll call you Ambrose instead of Doctor Gerald, if you don't mind. And, ask you to respond to any of what you've heard so far, which has already been ripped from Barbara and Le mercy. Or to the question, what is Joan to be?
00;26;09;11 - 00;26;39;12
Ambrose Jearld Jr
Well, thank you. And, hello, everyone. Again. And let me say from the start that, well, my background is in the stem area as far as my training and, and experience and, and retirement. History is not my specialty. And so, I'm here is, man on the street, that's just, excited about, Juneteenth.
00;26;39;14 - 00;27;12;05
Ambrose Jearld Jr
I first learned about Juneteenth, quite frankly, when I went to graduate school to work on my master's degree at Oklahoma State University and the secretary of the fishery unit, the, the Cooperative Fishery unit that I that my a research assistantship goes through was an African-American woman from Stillwater, Oklahoma. Helen Murray and the Murrays celebrated Juneteenth in a big way every year.
00;27;12;08 - 00;27;53;04
Ambrose Jearld Jr
So that was an education for me, to hear about Juneteenth. And then, after that, to continue to, build my not only interest and esteem port, but, knowledge about it. And so, what I would add to the conversation is, is, really the question I think that's being asked here. When exactly, did legal slavery in, in the US, because it's been pointed out here, you know, we have Juneteenth, we have the Emancipation Proclamation.
00;27;53;07 - 00;28;24;28
Ambrose Jearld Jr
We have the 13th amendment, and then we have the issue of what to do about the slaves in the, indigenous, territories. In Oklahoma, out in the Oklahoma area. Yeah. The Choctaws, the, Cherokees, the Seminoles, the verse one own slaves. And so even after, Juneteenth, they had not been freed yet until 1866, I think it is.
00;28;25;00 - 00;28;56;09
Ambrose Jearld Jr
And so that's a question. So it's really, you know, you know, when might you celebrate the end of slavery? But that might not be the end. The important thing here, I think the probably the an important aspect of this, it's this is an opportunity for us to be represented, to represent our culture, black culture, African American culture.
00;28;56;11 - 00;29;32;05
Ambrose Jearld Jr
It's it's a time, I believe, to, ask the question. And you know what? Was it like, you know, ending slavery and and what did that all mean? What did it lead to? And hopefully it's led to our, wanting to with others, Americans embrace the truth as we seek to understand what it was like to end something as horrible as chattel slavery.
00;29;32;08 - 00;29;33;29
Robin Joyce Miller
00;29;34;02 - 00;29;57;05
Rev. Will Mebane
Yeah. Thank you, thank you. Ambrose. So I am going to ask, my co-host to get into the conversation here. She has been listening to, all this knowledge you all are dropping on us here, which, is much appreciated. And, see what, Anjali has, to offer to the conversation at this point.
00;29;57;08 - 00;30;22;22
Onjalé Scott Price
Yeah, there's been a lot of knowledge dropped. Really? It really makes me think of how much I don't know and how much I need to learn, but also recognizing that I don't know what. I don't know to some extent. So when I think about what Juneteenth is, I realized that I knew what Juneteenth was. Very young, my family celebrated Juneteenth.
00;30;22;22 - 00;30;43;26
Onjalé Scott Price
I, I remember probably grade school being one of the people asked to read pieces of the proclamation at a large gathering, like a barbecue, that we had. But even though I was in Southern California, my family is from Texas, so they brought that with them to California. So it wasn't something that I saw, but I remember seeing anybody else celebrate.
00;30;43;26 - 00;31;18;20
Onjalé Scott Price
But because they were from Texas and knew about that history, they brought that to California. But there are many years that I did not celebrate Juneteenth didn't even think about it again, to be honest. You know, when I think about this year and this was the first year that I really was involved in some of the planning for the Juneteenth events that happened around town that I ended up not actually going to, because when I really sat and reflected on the day, like we've been talking about reflecting on what it is, I felt it was a bit more somber than what I wanted to do in that day, because when I think about the two
00;31;18;20 - 00;31;38;09
Onjalé Scott Price
and a half years between, I mean, slavery in general, but the two and a half years between when the Emancipation Proclamation was signed and when the last people in Texas learned of it, I can't imagine what it would have been like to think of these all these years, but especially these last two and a half years. I shouldn't have been where I am.
00;31;38;12 - 00;32;02;22
Onjalé Scott Price
I should have been free and all that those people lost, and how they must have felt at that time, really put me in a somewhat somber place. This particular Juneteenth. So what I decided to do on Juneteenth, instead of going and celebrating and, attending various events and talking to people, I decided I was going to support a black owned business, and I was going to support a black person in some way.
00;32;02;22 - 00;32;39;10
Onjalé Scott Price
So I, I attended the event that Robyn Joyce Miller and her husband had at the Cotuit Center for the Arts and watch their their presentation about Juneteenth and and and and participated in a discussion afterwards. And that's how I felt. I wanted to respect or celebrate Juneteenth this year. So I think in talking about what Juneteenth is, I think it in celebrating it or not celebrating it, I think can be very personal, more so than I think people give credit to.
00;32;39;12 - 00;33;19;24
Rev. Will Mebane
Yeah. The Robin, Joyce Miller and her husband, James, a well known to us. You on the conversation and have CTV and, glad you went to that because they do they do great work there. It could do it. Center for the Arts, but so but I want to give you credit, Andre, because when I when we moved to Falmouth in 2018, you invited me to attend what was the first acknowledgment or recognition of Juneteenth in the town of Falmouth at Peggy Noonan Park?
00;33;19;29 - 00;33;20;26
Onjalé Scott Price
I remember that.
00;33;20;28 - 00;33;44;00
Rev. Will Mebane
And that's when you and I sort of connected. And so you should take credit for that. And. Yeah, I this is what I'm going bring bring Barbara back and ask Barbara, what do you think about, you know, is it a celebration, is it a recognition. Should it be is it somber? Is it how what what what do you say to that?
00;33;44;03 - 00;34;28;11
Barbara Burgo
All of the above. And I also, I concur that, it is a personal, a point that you take personally and decide to choose which way you would like to celebrate it or acknowledge it or recognize it. So, Angela, I admire you for doing that. I, of course, got the invitation from Robin and Jim, but because I now am in Falmouth quite a bit, I, I was asked last December or January if, we were doing something at the museum and I said, we've done the acknowledgment a couple of times.
00;34;28;14 - 00;35;05;00
Barbara Burgo
I take it as a a teachable moment, a moment to help folks get woke. As the anthropologist, as the person that I am more more the activist, that I said I would love to help collaborate and getting Juneteenth, more into the minds and the lives of the people in Falmouth. So I thought my best opportunity would be to collaborate with the superintendent of schools and the school system and Live Arts, Falmouth.
00;35;05;03 - 00;35;33;05
Barbara Burgo
And the three day celebration was great. But I mentioned to them, like you here often, I appreciate that the Arts Falmouth has been doing that. It has been using that weekend for whatever, almost 20 years. Those three days to promote their arts. This year I said, since it is a national holiday and we had the opportunity, if we could start early on to make sure this is an intentionally black Juneteenth, okay.
00;35;33;05 - 00;35;59;20
Barbara Burgo
And intentionally black, Falmouth. I know it'll take a while, but I said we have to make sure that we do things to let folks know that if you want them to be included, the Bipoc community in what you do, you also have to respect what they are doing. So it was my idea to offer ask Rep David Viera if he would help with Jean Morrison.
00;35;59;22 - 00;36;23;29
Barbara Burgo
Many of us know her and that's how that got in the newspapers. Rep David Viera, many of you saw was giving a salute to Jean Morrison. Jean Morrison did a great job helping us get students from the high school. So we tried to get a little bit of everyone involved. Rep David Viera did exactly what we heard in the beginning.
00;36;24;00 - 00;36;55;06
Barbara Burgo
Talk about the general artistry. He put a pronounced the Emancipation Proclamation. He dressed up in uniform, any way we choose to add to this day, or you can keep it to yourself however you chose. It is it cannot be, minimized whatsoever. It really needs to tell folks that we I'm sorry. There's a backing up of a truck here.
00;36;55;09 - 00;37;23;22
Barbara Burgo
There. There are ways that each one of us can put our personal take on what we feel and what we see. I must celebrate Juneteenth because it is my birthday. I do feel like maybe I am a little bit, a little bit touched by grace to have been the Juneteenth baby, because it then meant so much more to me when I realized where they got that name from.
00;37;23;24 - 00;37;38;16
Barbara Burgo
So I just say, I'm a Juneteenth baby, and I will spend the rest of my life helping educate people on what it means. And you take away from it what you choose to personally.
00;37;38;18 - 00;38;18;26
Rev. Will Mebane
Yeah. Touched by Grace. Oh, you're singing my song now? Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. So all of you talked about, the lack of education, right? That and the need for continuing education around this. I mean, that's what the mercy's doing in her work. And, Barbara, you're doing as well. And, Ambrose, as a, as a non historian is doing it, but as a person who is, committed to learning about, our people, I know, you're involved in that as well.
00;38;18;26 - 00;38;43;07
Rev. Will Mebane
So the the second question we asked the, the people on the street to respond to was, why don't we why don't we know the history of Juneteenth and why hasn't them been taught? So I want to come back after we hear, hear from those people and, hear what you have to say in response to that, that question.
00;38;43;07 - 00;38;52;22
Rev. Will Mebane
So take a listen to what folks on the street had to say.
00;38;52;24 - 00;39;17;01
Mark Long
It was became a state holiday in Texas in the 70s and was really seen as a Texas event specific event. And so, and I'm not from Texas and having lived there, so I don't know how much it was taught in Texas, beginning certainly in the 70s, I would imagine, as it becomes a state holiday. But over time, it has it has been sort of adopted in other states, as a kind of symbol of this broader, this broader historical moment.
00;39;17;04 - 00;39;34;29
Mark Long
And so Juneteenth is unique in that way, and that it was, specifically as a historic moment, a Texas event, but it has come to be a national, symbol of those events. So I think, while lots of people in states would have learned about emancipation, Juneteenth itself was still emerging as a sort of a potent symbol of that.
00;39;35;02 - 00;40;01;21
Robin Joyce Miller
Slavery is shameful to this country that boast of freedom. It's not a feel good topic. We have, the GOP now fighting about critical race theory. Well, this is part of critical race theory. First, people have to, in America have to say, recognize that, we had slavery to begin with and that it is shameful to America.
00;40;01;28 - 00;40;23;12
Robin Joyce Miller
And so, I don't know how it's going to be handled now that it's a national holiday. And I'm not I'm no longer in the classroom as a teacher. So I'm wondering how will it be, handled? How will they they're going to try and sanitize it, I'm sure. But this is a story of black people. This is a story of America.
00;40;23;14 - 00;40;41;23
Robin Joyce Miller
It is a shameful tale. And so they're going to, you know, play up the freedom part. But it was an ugly story that brought this all about, I have no clue how it will be handled, but I know why it hasn't been it hasn't been something that America wants to talk about.
00;40;41;26 - 00;40;44;09
Krissie Williams
But unfortunately, you know, with a lot.
00;40;44;09 - 00;40;45;07
Krissie Williams
Of with black.
00;40;45;07 - 00;40;48;03
Krissie Williams
History, you know, you have to teach yourself. I.
00;40;48;03 - 00;40;50;08
Krissie Williams
Taught myself, I took several courses.
00;40;50;08 - 00;40;53;11
Krissie Williams
I actually teach a black studies course now.
00;40;53;14 - 00;40;54;23
Krissie Williams
At the high school.
00;40;54;25 - 00;40;56;18
Krissie Williams
And, you know, you.
00;40;56;18 - 00;40;59;15
Krissie Williams
Learn something every year, but.
00;40;59;17 - 00;41;01;04
Krissie Williams
You know, I'm, I'm concerned.
00;41;01;04 - 00;41;01;24
Krissie Williams
Because there's.
00;41;01;24 - 00;41;02;16
Krissie Williams
Been an attack.
00;41;02;16 - 00;41;08;27
Krissie Williams
There have been attacks recently on the histories of black and brown people. You know, with critical race theory.
00;41;08;27 - 00;41;10;19
Krissie Williams
And everything else. A lot of.
00;41;10;19 - 00;41;12;22
Krissie Williams
States, particularly in the South.
00;41;12;25 - 00;41;19;10
Krissie Williams
Are now making it illegal to teach, histories that.
00;41;19;12 - 00;41;20;15
Krissie Williams
You know, basically.
00;41;20;15 - 00;41;29;23
Krissie Williams
Talk about one group being subject, subjugated to another group. And so, it's up to us to kind of carry the torch, you know.
00;41;29;23 - 00;41;30;16
Krissie Williams
Those who know.
00;41;30;22 - 00;41;31;28
Krissie Williams
And to teach others.
00;41;32;03 - 00;42;00;18
Sonia Tellier
So one of the things that we were all talking about is that in particular in the Commonwealth, right, where asked to align our instructional decisions and select our curriculum materials in alignment with the curriculum frameworks. And so as recently as 2018, the social studies curriculum frameworks were revised and republished. And so, we scanned them again because Juneteenth still is not there.
00;42;00;21 - 00;42;30;28
Sonia Tellier
Then we started to think about when we do, review and select, you know, textbooks or, supplemental materials. We looked at how references to Juneteenth have been made historically prior to being identified as a holiday or a day that we, you know, are raising our consciousness about and talking about collectively and in some textbooks, you know, and this is at the publisher's discretion, it's either not included.
00;42;31;01 - 00;42;54;24
Sonia Tellier
In some cases, it's included, you know, in the supplemental material. And I think that having the, the, the sort of, rallying around our community and the openness that I think is a hallmark of Falmouth, right, that we see something and we say, okay, this is a gap in our curriculum. This is something we're not putting enough time and energy into talking about other students.
00;42;54;26 - 00;43;12;05
Sonia Tellier
And and we respond to that. So outside of, you know, the frameworks are not addressing it and our resources not addressing in knowing that we can partner with our community and find the resources and educate each other to be able to, educate our students, I think. Right. Like, that's what's bringing us there.
00;43;12;11 - 00;43;13;20
Krissie Williams
And, you know, textbooks.
00;43;13;20 - 00;43;17;06
Krissie Williams
Had to control and everything because, you know, you got the basic.
00;43;17;06 - 00;43;21;12
Krissie Williams
Information on the American history and and maybe off to the side they had, like, you know.
00;43;21;12 - 00;43;24;11
Krissie Williams
Something on a sidebar, Martin Luther King or, you.
00;43;24;11 - 00;43;31;14
Krissie Williams
Know, someone else or whatever. Very, very little information given on black history or women's history or.
00;43;31;14 - 00;43;46;05
Krissie Williams
History just in general of black and brown people. But I think now with the internet, you know, textbooks are very outdated. I know I don't even use one in my classroom anymore. All my, sources are from the internet or primary sources.
00;43;46;07 - 00;44;21;00
Rev. Will Mebane
Well, once again, thanks to, to our friends, from the street there. So Chrissy and Mark and, Sonya for, helping to contribute to the conversation, especially around the question of. So, you know, Juneteenth happened, you know, 1865, and that was the day when General Granger delivered General Order three. We've heard, but very few of us know anything about it.
00;44;21;02 - 00;44;46;02
Rev. Will Mebane
I certainly didn't learn grow up learning anything about the importance of that day, the significance of that day. And so it begs the question, why is that? Why why have we not taught that? So I'm going to go back to our educator, from Boston, the Mercury Frazier with the African American Museum, Museum of African American History, and give you a chance to respond to that.
00;44;46;04 - 00;45;28;06
L'Merchie Frazier
Well, they're, they're varied reasons. I do believe that, can be applicable across the board in terms of the complexity of what slavery issued and its impact on, on the whole nation. We know that slavery was a contract by law. It was not just arbitrarily done. And so its economic impact was a part of what keeping the dominant narrative of what we learn in history about the Founding fathers and the, democratic principles and what the Constitution offers.
00;45;28;08 - 00;46;19;07
L'Merchie Frazier
Martin Luther King said that the Emancipation Proclamation and the Declaration of Independence were two of the most important documents ever issued in America, and the reliance on the language. That is, there is a part of keeping us in a space of looking and hoping for freedom, as it is very illusory, is not something that we can say, oh, we got freedom now, do we, as it is ever going, and we can witness that across the last two months we've had in, in our own certain circumstances here in the 21st century, when we think about how the narrative of all are created equal plays out right.
00;46;19;09 - 00;46;56;05
L'Merchie Frazier
And the belief in that as a systemic overall, a condition of being, all we need to do is look at the health and wealth gap of communities that have not been cared for, and the ways that those who are at the top of the society have their needs met, and the profits that would be, would be in endangered by everyone knowing truth.
00;46;56;07 - 00;47;39;25
L'Merchie Frazier
When we think about that, we can be rest assured that those who are in control of the narrative and as it's played out and the media being a part of that, that the curriculums that result from the the dominant narrative being challenged. And I'm, I'm one of the people who has challenged at least for five years, the Massachusetts standards and frameworks for public schools and for teachers to know what slavery meant and how its implications affect us all, and that how, all of our voices should be reflected in the curriculum, that this is no easy, this is no easy task.
00;47;39;28 - 00;48;13;00
L'Merchie Frazier
Teachers are afraid to teach what they don't know. And I would be too. So information and it's authenticity supported by evidence, documents, objects of African and and indigenous experience have to be a part of the archive that, curriculums are set up to teach our children. I don't know about you, but it was not my circumstance to know very much about slavery.
00;48;13;00 - 00;48;36;20
L'Merchie Frazier
There was one page in my textbook. I don't know if that's anybody else's, experience, but I grew up in a segregated South in Jacksonville, Florida. Yes. And when I thought about, you know, how what were the stories I was told because my community cared about us and we had to have separate school systems, separate school boards and all of that.
00;48;36;23 - 00;49;10;13
L'Merchie Frazier
It was a very natural embrace of black experience in other communities. It is not. We have to take our stories seriously. Juneteenth is a moment to crystallize, to come together in unity. Yes, whatever way you want to, to acknowledge it, celebrate it, whatever you want to do with it, but to render it valuable is a part of what the dominant narrative doesn't do for us.
00;49;10;13 - 00;49;41;10
L'Merchie Frazier
So while we are now able to participate in an expanded narrative and then expand it, narrative of belonging, not just inclusion that's being invited to somebody else's party, but to be in a a place of really belonging and taking up that space and knowing our possibilities. Then we will know more and seek more about ourselves. That is affirmative.
00;49;41;12 - 00;50;00;12
Rev. Will Mebane
The mercy. You better watch out now because you do. You go on. And in challenging the folks that prepare the standard school curriculums and you going to get accused of critical thinking, queer critical race theory. Now in the, you know, and these, these these teachers don't want to I know you ready for it. I know that.
00;50;00;14 - 00;50;11;11
L'Merchie Frazier
Come on. We got the evidence. We got everything. Yeah. That's where are we in trouble right now because people don't want to acknowledge it you know.
00;50;11;11 - 00;50;12;08
Rev. Will Mebane
And that isn't.
00;50;12;08 - 00;50;18;02
L'Merchie Frazier
It wasn't me. You know that was with us some education, some information.
00;50;18;04 - 00;50;20;05
Rev. Will Mebane
And that's what's happening now. They don't want a the.
00;50;20;05 - 00;50;22;05
L'Merchie Frazier
Grocery store and the school. Something's wrong.
00;50;22;08 - 00;50;29;14
Rev. Will Mebane
Some folks don't want to talk about it now which is why we got all this noise about critical race theory. But I saw you wanted to get in there. Barbara. Go ahead.
00;50;29;16 - 00;51;05;09
Barbara Burgo
Oh. Thank you. That's why I had the disclaimer in the beginning. My my anthropology classes, my BA from Rhode Island College. I am a critical race theory. So I took two senior seminars in critical race theory. And this is one of the things, one of the reasons that I take every opportunity to, add not just to the narrative, but participate like we did in the three day, celebration or recognition in Falmouth this weekend.
00;51;05;16 - 00;51;39;00
Barbara Burgo
We had drumming on Saturday. We had, Candida Rose and Julia lot on Sunday Groove, a lot of, singing and getting the place dancing. It was great to see a lot of, black folks, Bipoc folks enjoying and smiling, to see you sit at the table, to see us sit at the drums. I thought we'd have one hour of drumming, but I brought them out at 10:00 in the morning and people were sitting down interchangeably black, white, indigenous.
00;51;39;04 - 00;52;13;16
Barbara Burgo
We were drumming from 10:00 in the morning until 4:00 in the afternoon. You couldn't stop it from happening. People were their eyes were bright to see this. So I'm going to just, I'm calling the the phrase from the late, great Aretha. What I tried to do is gain respect for what we do. R-e-s-p-e-c-t you know that. So why they don't want to talk about the why it's not in the history books is because slavery was America's original sin.
00;52;13;18 - 00;52;38;21
Barbara Burgo
We did not get respect in the Constitution. And as you heard in the beginning of this program, when I point it out, even when the General Order three, we would remain in our places. When I got to college as an adult, they asked if you know why I was in a history class, how many folks were there just because it was a required subject?
00;52;38;21 - 00;53;04;10
Barbara Burgo
And I raised my hand right away and they said, what is it that you didn't like about history? And I said, because it didn't have anything to do with anyone who looked like me, I say that mantra all the time. They were white men on horses for the most part. In wars there were no blacks celebrated and there were no women celebrated or none really to speak of.
00;53;04;12 - 00;53;30;11
Barbara Burgo
You give me something that I can recognize through these new history books that represent folks like me, and I'm sure I'll do better than the horrible mark I got in high school for that. And of course, I said I graduated magna cum laude. I got an A in history class at 45 years old. I'm telling you, I got a C in history class in high school, and my mother beat me silly.
00;53;30;14 - 00;53;49;07
Barbara Burgo
It's not just that we are trying to get the rest of the world to recognize that we are trying to get the youth that are growing up today to be proud, to know that they deserve the respect that ending slavery should have given them.
00;53;49;09 - 00;54;20;03
Rev. Will Mebane
Just say amen to that. So, Ambrose, I know you've spent, a good part of your life, but as Barbara was talking about educating young people, I know you've had a deep commitment to, making sure that talented, young people of color have an opportunity to excel and, to demonstrate their, their intellect. Been all.
00;54;20;03 - 00;54;41;20
Rev. Will Mebane
And so I know that, that's really near and dear to your heart. So what do you have to say about this, this whole subject of education and the lack thereof around slavery and Juneteenth and the emancipation and the 13th amendment and the 14th amendment, you know?
00;54;41;23 - 00;55;10;26
Ambrose Jearld Jr
Well, I think that, here again, it's an opportunity and how we approach this, you know, varies and can vary. And there's the informal and the form approach to education. And I think the informal is just as important, perhaps more important than the formal in changing the minds and hearts and feelings of people.
00;55;10;27 - 00;55;11;26
Barbara Burgo
Absolutely.
00;55;11;26 - 00;55;26;26
Ambrose Jearld Jr
And so, when I think about, why we learn about Juneteenth, and why it's important, and I do want to say I'm one of those that say, let's celebrate. We got something to celebrate.
00;55;26;29 - 00;55;27;06
Barbara Burgo
Yes.
00;55;27;08 - 00;56;07;05
Ambrose Jearld Jr
We do not see the former slaves. When they heard they were free, it was jubilation. They celebrated that this is over. You know, it doesn't mean it wasn't horrible or horrific, but, you know, we can now take this and make up of what we can and move on, knowing there's going to be obstacles. But, I think that, looking back to the founding of this country, say, in 1791, a citizen who was a white male, a land, a property owner, but that was a citizen.
00;56;07;07 - 00;56;42;29
Ambrose Jearld Jr
And the rest of us, including white women, we have had our freedom. But through amendments or acts, and that's still going on. We still have people who wanted to, keep us from voting. Yes. See? And so this Juneteenth opportunity is an opportunity, I believe, to stay on narrative of citizenship and who is a citizen and I am a citizen.
00;56;43;01 - 00;57;01;26
Ambrose Jearld Jr
And so to me, you know, that's very important. And, and so, it's an opportunity and, and, I think that when we look at what we know and don't know.
00;57;01;29 - 00;57;43;23
Ambrose Jearld Jr
No one, is up on Juneteenth pretty much the same. And unless you're a scholar and you if you, you know, you focused on that. But, Joe Q Joe Blow, America does not. So it's an opportunity from my point of view. And it's also, I believe, when we look at the whole, notion, concept and more construct of freedom of independence, of liberty, it is about an opportunity to explore still that for everyone.
00;57;43;25 - 00;58;24;18
Ambrose Jearld Jr
And so, but I'm looking at it, what we got to get to, I think, is, is bringing on people to bring people together to still understand that are here. Humanity is inextricably connected to each other. So that 4th of July, well, that was the lie. Because if everybody's not free, it's not a celebration of freedom or independence, but that Juneteenth is an opportunity for us all to come together and say, okay, now, if you are free and you have your independence, let's do this together, you know?
00;58;24;20 - 00;59;05;27
Ambrose Jearld Jr
And so, it's an opportunity. And I think what we are seeing here too, is those Texans out distance, everybody else, folks who celebrated, Emancipation Day at one time. So to let it fizzle, you know, and so, but the Texans stayed on message. And so, let's grab this holiday, run with it and sustain it for the right reasons, but have some fun along the way.
00;59;05;29 - 00;59;36;26
Rev. Will Mebane
No one is free until we are all free. And, you know, and, we know that struggle continues. So I'm going to toss it to Angie in a minute. But I got to go back to the the burning question that I had for, for years. And that is why so long? Why two and a half years, really, for, supposedly the news to get to the folks in Texas because as the merger was saying, come on, those folks knew that folks had to know.
00;59;36;28 - 00;59;48;15
Rev. Will Mebane
I mean, the black folks knew, the white folks knew. But, you know, the story is, oh, it took two and a half years for that to get there. What do you say, the marching?
00;59;48;17 - 01;00;22;02
L'Merchie Frazier
I say that is that a formal information, being passed or being announced? But that as early as 1775, when the, American Revolution was happening and, General Washington was, considering whether black, black should be patriots and given guns to fight for the American Revolution, there was a general in, Virginia who said, yeah, you should do it.
01;00;22;04 - 01;01;09;21
L'Merchie Frazier
Washington was against it, but he said, you should do it because not only are they avid fighters, but if they get news, you can rest assured that it can cover over 750 miles in less than a week. Because they're avid, they are very apt at communication. And so for me, just looking at that was 1775. And then we go 100 years later, almost 100 years later, 90 years later, I know that their information and their activity in the Underground Railroad and and networks and organization that happened, even with the aspect of having to keep it quiet, that there is news and it travels and it travels very far distances.
01;01;09;24 - 01;01;38;15
L'Merchie Frazier
As we find out more and more about how they were able to, to, to pass, to pass on information, to meet in places when they supported John Brown's raid on, Harpers Ferry in 1859, they met up in Canada. Harriet Tubman, Mary Ellen Pleasant from Nantucket, was in California. She came to give $35,000 to, to, to to John, to John Brown for that raid.
01;01;38;18 - 01;02;06;17
L'Merchie Frazier
Douglass and others are in Chatham, Canada. So when we think about their ability to travel and the news, there's no, doubt in my mind that they already knew but that it had to be formally announced. And that was some of, of course, there, you know, many of us who are in the recesses of a place may not hear exactly what's going on, but we have some understanding.
01;02;06;20 - 01;02;19;03
L'Merchie Frazier
So two years, that's a long time when a place is under siege, like the Confederate states were. So that would be my answer to that.
01;02;19;05 - 01;02;26;15
Rev. Will Mebane
Yeah. Yeah, we had we had the internet before they had internet. You know, we we had Google and oh, that.
01;02;26;18 - 01;02;28;29
L'Merchie Frazier
Was exactly.
01;02;29;02 - 01;02;30;10
Rev. Will Mebane
To.
01;02;30;13 - 01;02;38;05
L'Merchie Frazier
The drones. Right. So no rebellion, all of that. Right? Come on. No need to do that. But I.
01;02;38;05 - 01;03;08;16
Barbara Burgo
Think it's also I think it's also the the very simplistic answer of economics. I mean, they needed the I'm sure, so many don't forget obviously we know I'm just, preaching to the choir, forgive the pun, but, many didn't read write all of that. The ones that were in the plantations, they didn't get all that information that I'm sure the overseers know what the plantation owners knew and everyone else knew it was more economics.
01;03;08;16 - 01;03;38;17
Barbara Burgo
It was important to keep those folks on the plantation. So we know why. But, so, so wonderful of Abraham Lincoln, Major General Granger to go down there and say, now we get to stop this more. The point to me is, why were those in power allowed to keep slavery going for two and a half years?
01;03;38;19 - 01;03;39;13
Robin Joyce Miller
01;03;39;15 - 01;04;01;03
Barbara Burgo
Yeah. Why were they not why was there not some punitive event in some way. Because they were breaking the law of the land no matter what. Folks didn't have a lot of places to go. I understand that people wonder why would people stay on a, you know, plantation where there was slavery? It is a difficult thing.
01;04;01;03 - 01;04;27;22
Barbara Burgo
We see it now. We see it today with the unfortunately, the lack of of housing. Sometimes you stay in a very difficult position because you cannot find a way out. There should have been ways out made easier for the folks. But my biggest question here is how were they allowed to keep slavery going for two and a half years in America?
01;04;27;27 - 01;04;35;29
Barbara Burgo
And what possibly was done? Again, punitive measures for them, breaking the law?
01;04;36;01 - 01;05;23;11
L'Merchie Frazier
Well, I think, if I may jump in, I really appreciate that question, Barbara. The the idea that property relationships are what America is, were founded on, you know, it was the quest for land to, so-called gain freedom from England. The, the idea that there were those who gained property by kidnaping, of people and theft of the land, then those who were being disavowed of their property, disassociated and taken off their land, the what was called, quote unquote, and Thomas Jefferson's notes on the state of Virginia, the Indian soil, those who were being dispossessed of their land as indigenous people were here all the while.
01;05;23;16 - 01;06;03;11
L'Merchie Frazier
And then those who were being deemed property as the African descended people. So these property relations relationships were the dynamics of this entire civil war and the period of slavery. When we look at it as you have so, eloquently said, the economic, factor and dynamic of, of what America is founded on, how it kept its profits for those of, a particular class and how that was the sustainable mark and goal.
01;06;03;13 - 01;06;30;16
L'Merchie Frazier
Lincoln said he was just interested in keeping the, the, the, the union together. Yes. He wasn't interested necessarily in the humanitarian moral issue of slavery. He was interested in that this nation wouldn't divide itself. So, you know, and and that being the case, many of those who are property, property, the people are not going to be held into account.
01;06;30;19 - 01;07;01;01
L'Merchie Frazier
We we can even look at the the fact that in this state of South Carolina, the Confederate flag was allowed to to to wave as its state flag after the Civil War. And it is not until a courageous young black woman mounts that pole. She drives an hour and a half from her home town in North Carolina to South Carolina, and mount that pole and takes that flag down.
01;07;01;08 - 01;07;27;09
L'Merchie Frazier
That kind of courageous, the the like. We won't have it anymore. I'm tired. I'm not going to have it anymore, is her declaration. And then her father, ironically, who was who was working for the Freedom Center, the the Underground Railroad Freedom Center in Ohio is challenged because he won't denounce his daughter's actions by the funders of that institution.
01;07;27;11 - 01;08;06;23
L'Merchie Frazier
He is actually fired because she mounted the pole. So for me, it is saying it is a, a declaration of, empower. I'm going to stay in power by, by any means necessary on that side. So we have to meet that with, as Ambrose was saying, like the the joy of celebrating ourselves and resisting that power, that power of property relations and us really taken into account that our value and and the way we occupy space also.
01;08;06;25 - 01;08;41;03
Ambrose Jearld Jr
And I think to on this question, it is not to make it as an excuse. But I think as we examine critically, you know, the ending of slavery and, and the contexts that it, was happening and, and it has evolved is we do have to take into consideration, communication mode of communication. We have to take into consideration geography.
01;08;41;06 - 01;09;03;29
Ambrose Jearld Jr
Texas at the time was, you know, that was on the edge of the frontier, so to say. And, and, so there are those kinds of things. And so people got away with things that they might not have been able to get away with. It had been in Virginia City. And I think that's part of maybe what took two years.
01;09;04;01 - 01;09;46;08
Ambrose Jearld Jr
And I certainly think there was a strong economic, dimension to it and that the, slaves being viewed as property, as understood as a human being. Yes. And there's no doubt about that, I think, but I think these are things as we promote scholarship around the intricate and complex complexity of slavery and ending of slavery and its interconnectedness to who we are today, what's going on and then the future, that, we have to take that into consideration.
01;09;46;08 - 01;10;25;14
Ambrose Jearld Jr
And I think also it may be quite it may be controversial, but, unfortunately, I think that, more often not what gets notice, what gets pushed, what gets, satisfied has to do with what white America wants. And basically, as I said in 1790, a citizen was a white man, a property owner, and, and, so, maybe it was a compromise or we'll look the other way on this.
01;10;25;16 - 01;11;00;08
Ambrose Jearld Jr
And then there was a whole issue of, you know, succession of the South, from the union and the union issues and, and, and the complexity there. And, and as I said, which we are not addressing here, and nor do we need to focus on any one of these ending of slavery, opportunities. There was the question of what was going on also in the, indigenous territories there and what to do with those 10,000 slaves.
01;11;00;11 - 01;11;32;02
Ambrose Jearld Jr
And that didn't they didn't get their freedom until 1866. So it's a complex thing in terms of, who owned slaves, who were willing to give them up. What value were these slaves as a, as a, a piece of policy around this issue of the South and the North or the, you know, succeeding?
01;11;32;05 - 01;12;15;07
Ambrose Jearld Jr
I mean, you know, the South was about succeeding from the Union, and you had, the, the Native Americans that went with the, with the Confederacy. Then you had African Americans who, supported the Confederacy. And so it it is very complex is what it is and what I meant for us to stay, as opposed to sweeping things on the roads or this, thinking if you burn books or kill people or hang people or go out shout people, you're going to keep them from their freedom or their curiosity, you know?
01;12;15;07 - 01;12;17;11
Ambrose Jearld Jr
So putting a stop there. Yeah.
01;12;17;14 - 01;13;10;08
L'Merchie Frazier
Yeah, I possessive logic is, a term that, shows up those property dynamics that, that you're, you're espousing what people claim as their privilege. This idea like that, it's called white supremacy. And I don't like to keep reinforcing any supremacy there. And so white possessive logic, this idea that I have the right to possess something, I have the right to determine my assemblies, can give you soil of somebody else just because you ask for it, and you ask me to to for the permit permission to occupy it, or the right to scout people in hunting parties and be a guarantee that document decides how much money you're going to give for this whole
01;13;10;10 - 01;13;38;27
L'Merchie Frazier
idea of the Western Hemisphere and the arrival of the Europeans with Christopher Columbus in 1492, as a part of that white possessive logic, I have the right to to put you under my thumb, and I have the right to change your religion. I have the right to name rename all your plants whatever you already have names for. I have the right to subdue you because I can conquer you.
01;13;38;29 - 01;13;45;20
L'Merchie Frazier
The all of that. As a part of the plan for setting up, this period of enslavement and domination.
01;13;45;20 - 01;14;21;15
Ambrose Jearld Jr
So when I think if we look at archeology, look at epistemology, and we, we look at, values, and, and this all part, I think of the scholarship of looking at this is how we know. And when we look at individuals at a European cultures or the European culture, we cannot ignore the fact that you are working with the people out of a value system of scarcity.
01;14;21;18 - 01;14;46;04
Ambrose Jearld Jr
Yes. There was not very much that you could live on through the winter. In those in the, in that part, in those, in those geographies. And that has had an impact on their value system and how they see people as an object, time as an object. Money's an object. Friendship's an object, loads an object. How good are you to me now?
01;14;46;06 - 01;15;23;03
Ambrose Jearld Jr
Okay, I can put you aside. If someone else comes on with something that has a higher value to me. And so the church participated in this. All of its institutions that make up these United States as we know them today participated in slavery. And so where was the church if if the government wasn't doing it, if the military wasn't Jewish, where was a church in helping to get this information to Texas?
01;15;23;06 - 01;15;26;25
Ambrose Jearld Jr
Right? Well, yes, that will, but yeah.
01;15;26;28 - 01;15;34;11
Ambrose Jearld Jr
So we're not in the guidebook. When you're writing the guidebook for us, we need that. We need all the comments that you just made.
01;15;34;13 - 01;15;37;26
Ambrose Jearld Jr
And that Angel.
01;15;37;28 - 01;16;02;17
Onjalé Scott Price
Well, I this has been an amazing conversation. I am so glad that we had you, doctor Ambrose, do you love Mercy and Barbara on the show with us today along with Reverend? Well, this has been a fantastic conversation. I have learned so much. I look forward to going back and watching this show to pick up the things that I didn't hear the first time to make more notes.
01;16;02;19 - 01;16;30;00
Onjalé Scott Price
So I really want to thank you all for joining us today. Thank you Reverend. Well, for being here on your vacation. Thanks to Allen and Deb at Abc-Tv for continuing to co-produce the show with us, and we look forward to seeing you all on another episode of The Conversation.
01;16;30;03 - 01;16;41;01
Robin Joyce Miller
01;16;41;04 - 01;16;41;11
Robin Joyce Miller