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Moms coming together to talk about the good, the bad, the ugly, and the really ugly. Join host Lisa - aka MessyStressyMama - as she discusses both the joys and challenges of being a parent and raising young children, with special guests and subject-matter experts along the way. Presented in an entertaining, non-judgmental style, join us on life's greatest adventure!
Segment 1
Lisa: Welcome to The Imperfect Moms’ Club!
Michele: I'm so happy to be here. Yes, we've kind of had this scheduled for a little while and it's fun to get together finally.
Lisa: I'm excited to talk about grief with you, about kids. Before we get into all that, could just introduce yourself and tell us who you are and what you do?
Michele: Well, I'm Michelle Benyo and I'm the founder of Good Greif Parenting. My background is as an Early Childhood Parent Educator. I became a parent educator in my mid-30s when I became a mom. I had some teaching and some communications and other careers in my background but, I just loved being a mom. By the time I started doing my work as an early childhood parent educator - which is a program we have here in Minnesota in every school district - it just gave me a chance to be with parents of other young children like mine every day and just navigate together parenting in those early years. And so, I just loved that path; I loved that occupation.
But, just a few months after starting that, my four-and-a-half-year-old son was actually diagnosed with cancer. I had a 15-month-old daughter as well. And so, it kind of launched me on a very different early childhood parenting experience and, after two and a half years, my son did die of cancer.
Lisa: I’m so sorry.
Michele: Yes, it was not how I planned for my early childhood career to go. With the loss of her brother, my daughter actually said to me at the age of three and a half, “mommy, half of me is gone”. So it just really was something that I was so deeply aware of from the beginning: this idea of how young children grieve so deeply. And that's been my mission now with Good Grief Parenting for the last more than 20 years. So, that's what brought me to you today is just all of the things I've learned that most of us as adults don't even really think about, which is how those really little ones grieve.
Lisa: There are stages of grief for adults. We talk about the stages of grief but, how does it differ with children? Is there a difference in the stages?
Michele: Well, I really want to debunk that idea of stages because that's really a misused concept. It is so common; everyone talks about it. In fact, when my son died and I had to face this grief, I didn't know anything about grief. I had this little child who clearly was grieving with me and I had a husband who was grieving and I didn't know how to do it. And people talked to me about the stages of grief, which I had never heard about before. And I didn't do any of that. So, I actually felt like, oh my gosh, I'm doing grief wrong. How can I help my daughter? I'm not doing this right.
Well, I have since learned that those things that we call the stages of grief actually never were the stages of grief. They're the stages of dying, identified by Elizabeth Kubler-Ross. She was working with and studying adults who themselves had a fatal diagnosis. And so, it's the stages [of dying]. It's intended to be what people might experience when they learn that they themselves are dying. That made more sense to me. But many people, including psychologists and people who work with grieving people, talk about these stages [for grief]. I just want your listeners to understand that these are not stages of grief even though they're used that way and grief doesn't really go through stages. It’s more of a process that you go through and you circle back through some of those emotions and certainly, many of those emotions can be parts of it.
As for children, which was your question, they experience grief in many ways same as adults do. They experience the loss of a loved one and, specifically [for my situation], the death of a sibling or a child but, of course, there are many other losses that children experience. Some of them aren't even the death of a loved one; it might be a divorce that causes them to lose the family they knew and, maybe the loss of a relationship with one parent; loss of a pet; moving away like in the movie, Inside Out where Riley is grieving her familiar neighborhood. That's all grief, and the way that kids experience it is, they don't have the words and they don't have past experience.
It was amazing that my three-and-a-half-year-old daughter could state it the way she did, that half of her was gone because she hadn't had grief experiences before. She was just telling me how it felt to her and, often kids don't have the vocabulary or the experience and so, you're gonna see their grief in ways that may not look like grief. They may be more irritable or they may be very, very quiet and fearful. Many kids, like my daughter, work through their grief through play. So, sometimes adults will say, “well, I don't think they're really feeling the loss; they seem to be doing okay. They're just playing”. Play is how children process many hard things and confusing things that happen to them. And so, with children, rather than looking for signs that they're grieving, I just encourage people to know that if your family has experienced a really significant loss, it is affecting your child and they are grieving. If there was someone in the household that is now gone, they know that person is gone, they miss that presence, and they may not be crying a lot. My daughter didn't cry. That wasn't something she did a lot of. She really worked it all through with her play.
So that's the main difference; it's not as visible. Many of the feelings are the same but, kids don't know how to articulate them. They don't really understand what those feelings are the way we do as adults because we have more experience.
Lisa: Yeah, that is really incredible that [your daughter] was able to articulate it in that way and that she felt safe enough to share that with you.
About a year ago now, we had to put our cat down; my daughter was only two and a half. It was just supposed to be a routine follow-up [vet] visit and we ended up having to put her down. And so, I came home without Noodle and my husband and I didn't really know how to bring it up to Lilly. I told him, I said “let's just wait until she brings it up”. If she wonders, “oh, where's noodle”, then we can have a talk with her. But, I didn’t want to force anything on her. She was having fun, she was playing. So, we waited. And I noticed actually in the next few weeks after that, she didn't appear sad but, she liked to pretend to be a cat for a while. I recognized that as how she was coping with it; she became a cat herself. And so, she would meow at me and I would call her Kitty Lilly because I recognized that she was processing it. She didn't really understand the concept of, [Noodle’s] not coming back. I think she was still a little too young to understand that. [We explained that Noodle] was very sick and she wasn't going to get better. I thought it was interesting how she just was suddenly decided she wanted to pretend to be a cat one day. So I just went with it because that's what she needed at that moment.
Michele: They do find their ways and, you know, that just brings up a couple of things. One is that, sometimes, when they ask us things or they say things around the circumstance that's created the grief, we may sort of assume that we know what they're wanting to know, or we may think that we know how they're processing it. It's just important to know that they're doing their own thing; when children talk to us about grief or other things that they're experiencing, if we don't understand what they're asking or referring to, it's important to ask them “what do you mean by that?”, or “why are you asking me tha?”, or “why are you saying this?”
One other thing that you bring up is that idea of how, we tell them that someone, or the beloved pet, has died and we do need to keep reinforcing for them the fact that they died. I would really recommend using that word because it's the only word that accurately tells children what happened. They don't understand what death is; they're not going to understand it really until they're five or six but, we still have the opportunity to start teaching them about it. Saying [things like], death is when your body stops working. What was the cat's name?
Lisa: Noodle.
Michele: Yes. Yes. Noodle’s body stopped working and she can't meow anymore. She can't jump on your bed anymore. She can't play with you anymore and we're not going to see her anymore. She died. Her body stopped working. [Children are] going to have to process that. They're going to ask you about it as they grow, cognitively, as they grow up as a child. They're going to have more understanding of that and probably want to talk about it some more. And we're going have to keep reminding them.
And then, the idea of someone being sick, which you mentioned, we always aren't sure about that either because, we want [children] to know that someone's body stops working only sometimes when they're very, very sick. That we can be sick and our body will keep working and, many times, that's that but, we just really keep reminding them of what "died" means and letting them get used to the idea that they're not going to see this person again. They'll ask us over and over again and we'll just have to keep telling them.
Lisa: Yeah, we noticed that. My husband and I noticed that about Lily; she would keep asking the same question and we would keep telling her. “Noodle was very sick and she wasn't going to get better”. I looked it up online because cause I didn't know; I didn't think that we'd have to deal with this so early in Lilly’s Life. So, I looked it up and I remember reading to be direct, so we said, “died” and we said “not coming back”. I kept thinking that, had we said "Oh, she's just not here anymore" then, that would have, for her, meant "Oh, she might come back later or something." So, I wanted to be very clear that [Noodle] won't be coming back, you know? It's hard to know what language to use because you don't want to be too dark and sad and depressing, but you also want to make sure you get the point across. So, it's hard for me because I like to be gentle so it was hard for me. Especially because it was such a surprise, I guess. Lilly expected - I mean, everybody expected - me to come back with the Noodle. It was brought up, “hey, you should do this” so, I said okay. I didn't have time to process it myself before being home, being with Lilly. And so, we had to process it together. I feel like I processed it through helping her process it. I don't know, I guess it was helpful for me too to be able to explain it in layman's terms for her, but then also it helped me as well.
Michele: You touched on something so important and that is that we as adults are uncomfortable with death. A child isn’t uncomfortable with death; they haven't had the experience we’ve had. It was awful for me to have to say “my son died”. I didn't want to use that word to talk about what happened to him. And I had two and a half years to prepare for that inevitability. But just that language for us as adults - we know what it means. We know the finality. We know the pain that comes with the absence of this person or this pet that we loved. All of that for us is contained in that very direct language of death.
It's not the same for a child; they don't have all of that. So what we're really giving them is vocabulary that's going to prevent the confusion you talked about that comes from us sometimes wanting to be more - we think we're being gentle, but we're really just not being direct and giving them accurate information. It can create problems later.
The way you described your experience with just having to figure all of that out is what we have to go through as adults. We really have to deal with our own coping before we can even bring it to a child and that really can make it hard. Being direct is so important and simple. Let [them] ask more questions, they'll ask more questions later but, for now they, what you told [Lilly] is just the basics and that's the truth and direct and that's what she needed.
Lisa: Yeah, I think we handled it well.
Michele: I do too.
Lisa: I think now she's done with asking again and again. Of course, I know that grief comes and goes and they say grief is an ocean. I'm ready, though, now, for the next time she comes to me with it.
Michele: The word that always comes to mind for me with adults and grief is that it's intimidating. We don't know how to do any of it. And we're so afraid of doing it wrong. And with children in addition to being direct with what we tell them, the other thing is to go through it with them. We don't need to protect kids from pain, from our own pain, or their pain. And I think we feel like we need to; we have to protect them, somehow. And that means I can't be sad.
With me, Deanna and I were both deeply grieving and missing this person. And dad was too. We were all in this grief together and one of the best things that I learned in that situation from the grief support group in the hospital that we attended was just the idea of letting your child know your grief. And, again, being direct. I'm really missing David today. One time, I said to my daughter - she saw me being really sad - I said, “I'm just really missing David today”. My belief is that we're going to see David again. I'm a Christian; I believe I know where he is and that I'm going to see him there. I also believe that his spirit is a presence with us in a way. And so, I was saying to her, “I miss that he's not here to give me hugs” because, of course, we would always feel like he was here with us in spirit. I miss that he's not here to give me a hug that he's not physically there [in spirit] and she said, "Oh, mommy, he still hugs me."
So, she had her own experience with her brother of feeling that he was still able to hug her. But she knew my grief when I experienced it. What they learn when they see us having a grief that maybe they don't exactly share is, you're being a role model for her about how grief can feel with someone that we're really close to. This is all part of what we're going to share with kids. And I say, childhood is the best time to learn about grief. You didn't want Lilly to learn about it quite as soon as she did when Noodle died but, she did and they do. And then we help them with it. She's able to watch you and she's learning from all of this in healthy ways. And you're teaching her really healthy ways to process grief and to live with it because it's part of our lives.
So, for me, I didn't know how to do it [at first]. It was very good for me to go through this grief support group at the hospital and to learn that I shouldn't worry about my daughter seeing my grief. So, when I work with families, I just say, it isn't either/or. It's important for you to take care of your own needs. That was an important part for me at the same time because, since I was in this field of early childhood, I think I was more focused on her needs than I would have been otherwise. And you can do both at the same time. And that's just what parents need to know. You don't need to put your own needs aside for your child and you don't need to hide your grief from them. It's a family experience. And you're going to have your really bad days and your child can deal with that. You can help them understand that and they don't need to be protected from it.
Obviously, and this is just the one caveat, if you are so utterly devastated that you have trouble functioning, that you can't stop crying, that you're really, really broken, which certainly can be a possibility, that's the kind of grief where you really are going to want to get some professional support. You are going to want to find ways to help your child be shielded from some of the worst of it because, the other part of what they experience when we are grieving is a fear that, I don't know if mommy can take care of me anymore. She's not able to make dinner. She's so sad, she cries. That's scary for a child. So, they need our reassurance that we can still take care of them. Yes, I'm really sad and I really cried hard today, didn't I? That's because I was really sad, but I'm still here and I'm still able to take care of you. And we're going to get through this. We're going to feel better sometime, just not right now. So, some of those assurances are important too.
Lisa: When I was a child, I was protected from a lot, but that means that I also didn't experience a lot. I didn't learn how to cope with my feelings. I think it's really important to show our kids how to cope with things. Sometimes it's hard but, but it'll be okay and everything will be okay.
Michele: If we're not exposed to any of this as a child, it's not doing us any favors because we're not having opportunities to learn the reality of some of the challenges of life that we will face at some point. We're not learning how to cope with it. Everything that I teach families in Good Grief Parenting to help children who are grieving is just good parenting for every single child whether they've had a huge loss in their childhood or not.
You're absolutely right to help kids learn what emotions are and that they're all a part of our existence as humans and how to manage them. It’s so important. I love that you are giving that to Lilly and others who listen to your program and that you're so aware of that because that's really, as you say, that really is the whole key. And that also addresses the fear of saying the wrong thing or doing the wrong thing. If we're just being honest about emotions with all of the good and the bad, we don't try to make kids feel better. That's another thing adults do is, we never want kids to feel bad. Well, you know what? Sometimes you just feel bad and it's okay. You don't have to feel better. When we try to make kids feel better anytime they feel bad, we're not teaching them to be happy. We're teaching them that when they don't feel good, they need to put that feeling away, not acknowledge it or deal with it. Because the adults don't want to deal with it. All of that is emotional intelligence.
Segment 2
Lisa: Your experience resonates with me because my mom lost her brother when she was 17; it was an accident. My mom lost her brother and, because I didn't know her back then obviously, I didn't really know how she went through that and, I don't know how my grandmother dealt with it either. My grandmother lost her son but, my mom - I can tell she still really struggles with it. I don't think that she ever allowed herself to feel it and move on from it. But my grandmother - I remember growing up, my grandmother was more able to put her stuff aside and show me the emotional support that I needed.
So, my question is how. Because your daughter is a separate person and she has her separate feelings and she's also grieving, how are you able to separate and be there for your daughter even though you were also feeling your strong feelings? The strength that you have and the strength that my grandmother had, it's just incredible.
Michele: You know, you just have to, Lisa. People will say to a grieving parent or a grieving person, but in our case, your grandmother's and mine, grieving parent, “you're so strong”, or they might use words like that. I don't like for people to tell me I'm strong. I mean, they can, but to me, that's not what it is. Do you expect me to become a puddle on the floor and just not be able to cope? We have to cope with a lot of difficult things and we just do it and you would do it too if you had to. Parents will do it when they have to.
When my daughter lost her brother they were so close and they just adored each other. I knew when her brother died that she would grow up without a sibling and without a sibling that she was just so close to. And when she said “half of me is gone”, I knew that was a true statement. Three-and-a-half-year-olds, children in their really early formative years and beyond, even your mother's age, their identity is really entwined with their sibling. That sibling relationship is a connection that I don't think people think about. When my son died, everyone knew I had had a child die and they thought that was the worst possible thing. They didn't know, most people didn't even think about Diana and what it felt like for her to have lost her brother. I knew she had lost half of herself and so, I was really focused. That's why in the work I do with parents of early childhood-age children, my main focus is on that bereaved sibling because they have that connection. Even if they didn't spend a lot of years with this sibling.
[My daughter] is 26 now. My son died in 2000 so, 23 years ago almost. I've had the benefit, if that's what you want to call it, of seeing her grow up with this loss through the middle school years and her college years and all of these milestones in her life where the fact that she'd had a brother she wasn't able to grow up with, who had died, kind of came front and center and really impacted her. So, I think that bereaved parents, in a sense, get much more support than bereaved siblings. And with your mom having lost her brother at the age of 17, however many years ago that was, there was very little support and even acknowledgment, I think, of her loss. So, she didn't have the opportunity to really process it or to be validated as a griever.
And yet that sibling relationship - was he an older brother or a younger brother?
Lisa: He was two years older. So they were very close.
Michele: As a teen losing your big brother - I mean losing any sibling, but - I look at Deanna and David's relationship. He was her big brother; I mean, he's her hero. He's her champion. He fights for her, all of these things. And so, for me, I always felt her loss more than I felt my own. I really did. I don't know if it was now that I'm talking on podcasts and meeting with people and talking more about this, which I've been doing for the last couple of years on these public forums. Sometimes, some of the podcast hosts will want me to focus on David. They want to talk about my loss. And then, I really tap into this place that I think in some ways - I mean, I very much allowed myself to grieve and grieve in healthy ways when I lost him but, at the same time, I was very focused on her and the losses that she had, which she made so clear to me in the beginning.
I think the big answer is, or two points to that are, as a mom, you’re going to really be thinking about the other surviving children that have this loss too because you love the child who died and you love the child who is living without that child. Your grandmother must have just - I mean we're twice heartbroken, heartbroken for the loss of our child and then to see her 17-year-old daughter suffering from the death of her big brother - you just do what you have to do and it sounds like your grandmother had a lot of wisdom and a lot of compassion that was able to help her get through it.
One of the ways that all grievers survive the best is by finding ways to give to someone else, even out of your own pain, and just to share that compassion that you gain from it with other people. So, it sounds like your grandmother was able to do that as well.
Lisa: Yeah. It's just interesting for me because, obviously, I wasn't there when all of that was happening. So, I just saw where they were when I was here growing up. So, I don't know what they had to go through to get to the place where they were when I knew them. My grandmother was a second mom to me, honestly. I grieved - I'm still grieving really hard. I mean, I don't think I'll ever stop being devastated that she's gone; I see losing my grandmother as, I just lost a mom because she was the one that I spoke to about everything. It was almost like she didn't have another life; when she was talking to me about my stuff, she was just focused on me and what I was going through.
Through therapy of my own and through talking about her, I was curious about how she was able to get to that point where she was able to put all of her stuff aside and just - but, now I can see that it helped her; she poured that into supporting her grandchild. It's a nice thing to think about.
Michele: And I'm sure she did her processing in the earlier years because everyone does need to do that. I mean, if at the time of the death, I had just focused on Dianna and not done anything with my own grief, that would not have been a good situation for either one of us, Dianna or me. And so, I'm sure your grandmother did do her own work and did work through it in a healthy way in order to be able to give that to you.
One of the other things I would say about grief is that even when a person is doing well and moving beyond - I’m clearly able to focus on other things now and support other people - I still have my temper tantrum moments where I just really want my son back and I want my daughter to have her brother and I just don't want to be this bereaved mom who doesn't have her firstborn child. And, you know, I still carry the grief. But it does change. It does evolve. And we do get to the place where we assimilate it into the way that we're living. And hopefully, we assimilate it just in ways that enrich us. A lot of people can't imagine that grief can enrich us but, that's why I call my program Good Grief Parenting. Because all of those things you were talking about, emotional intelligence responses to how we process difficult events and emotions, all of that is making grief into something good because it's a growing experience for us. That's why I call it good. Not because it feels good or because we want to have grief, but because we can learn some really good things about how to have an enriched life by allowing ourselves to go through grief and cope with it in healthy ways.
Segment 3
Lisa: It just makes me really sad for my mom. I guess because I don't think that she ever really processed it, I feel like she was more of the avoiding type. So, she avoided the pain any way she could. I can see that she still really struggles; it's still so fresh. Growing up, I always wished that I could help her but, I don't have the same experience so, so I can't help her. I don't know how. It's just sad.
Michele: Well, I actually do have a suggestion for you since you bring this up because you're right; I doubt that she had anyone coming along - I mean, your grandmother, of course, shared the loss but, I doubt that she had anyone coming alongside her, asking her to talk about it, helping her through it, or giving her a place to voice [her grief]. I mean, there's so much anger, like my temper tantrum moments; the things that are lost that we can never get back. When you’re a griever and a sibling, so often you don’t get a chance to talk about it.
My grief credential is from the Grief Recovery Institute which has the Grief Recovery Method and has a book of that name. The process is to help anyone who's grieving any kind of loss, not even always the death of a loved one, but to help them come to terms with this loss. There are ways to come to terms with it and work through it in this Grief Recovery Method and this is a process that is effective for people who are grieving, as I said, lots of different kinds of grief, and even griefs that they may have carried for many, many years. Many people go through this Grief Recovery Method; it’s an eight-week program that you can go through with a certified Grief Recovery Specialist like myself or others all over the country because we'd like to do this process in person. And so, [your mom] can visit the Grief Recovery Institute website and find someone near her who could go through this process with her. It can be people who have carried grief for 60 years or more, they can really find some peace with it by going through this process. So that's something for her to look into or for you to look into for her.
Lisa: Yeah, I absolutely am going to look into that for her. I just worry that she won't want to.
Michele: We can't make them. We can't make them.
Lisa: But I'll definitely look into it. Sorry, I just got so focused on my mom.
Michele: Well that is important. I mean, the thing that you're bringing up, which I think does tie into this Lisa is that when we experience grief at whatever age - which is why my daughter's statement was so important to me at three and a half - it's like, okay, she's got her whole life ahead of her and half of her is gone. I've got to do something about that. It's not okay. Of course, she will grow up, but how? And do I want to leave it to chance or do I want to help her grow up whole and happy? Of course, I wanted to help her grow up whole and happy and I couldn't find anyone to tell me how to do it, which is why my program is so important to me because there aren't programs like mine out there.
If I'd had more children after David died, I would not have been the same parent ever again that I was before he died. Your mom, because she lost her brother at the age of 17, was a very different adult and parent to you than she would have been if she hadn't had that loss. And I have met other adults who lost a sibling and it was never dealt with for them because we don't help siblings with it or didn't; we're much better now. And that is important because it does ripple through the family. What you got from your mom is different than what you would have gotten from her had she not had a brother die or had she had more support as a grieving sibling. So it is really important.
And I think, for adults listening to this conversation between you and me, what they can draw from this is how important it is to just address that grief that young people, whether they're three and a half or 17 or even a young adult, not to mention older adults who lose siblings, in those developmental years of becoming who we're going to be, it's really important for young people and children to get support for the death of a sibling, as well as other deaths.
Lisa: You're right, we don't think about it. I mean, I didn't even really think about it. Now I feel really bad because, obviously, when I thought about my grandma, I thought about my grandmother's grief. As a mom, I can’t even think about losing one of my children and I hadn't really thought too much about my mom's side of it and how much harder it could be, potentially, for her to grow up without this person that she was so connected to. I feel like I didn't really know my mom and I say that because I didn't really know who she was before. So, it makes me feel like I never really met her. I just had this version of her that went through this big loss, but she was a person before that. She had likes and dislikes and all these things that she liked to do and hobbies. I hope, someday day, we can get it all sorted out. We'll see.
Michele: It's never too late to open the door for conversation. And as you say, when someone is grieving, especially if they're in a pattern of grieving because of the support they did or didn't have, sometimes when we've had a loss for many years, it's hard to think of doing it differently or seeing it differently or processing it differently. And no one who wants to help can force that process but, sometimes, just opening the door [helps].
That's what I say about talking to children because one of my biggest pieces of advice with young children is don’t avoid it. I was actually writing a blog before I hopped on here with you for early childhood providers and how we sometimes don't want to talk to kids if we know there's something going on in their family that might be affecting how they're behaving. We don't know whether we should talk to them and I just really recommend that for anyone who's grieving. Because as support people, we often don't know what to say, so we don't say anything. And that's not giving the griever, whoever they may be, the opportunity to talk about it if they want to. You might ask [Lilly], is there anything you want to know, or is there anything you're wondering about? Do you have any questions about that? Is there anything you're wondering about, or is there anything you're worrying about? Just letting [children] know it's okay to talk about it. They may not want to and that's okay. The point is not that they do it. So, even with your mom, just telling her that you're realizing some things you hadn’t realized and you're thinking about it and, if she ever wants to talk to you, just opening the door could make a difference for her at some point or maybe not.
But I think we just need to let grievers know that we're there for them. We can't fix anything but, we can be there and we can listen. I just really encourage adults who need to deal with it with young children to not be intimidated by it and to know that with death and loss, kids do feel these uncomfortable, not good feelings. They feel anger too and other feelings that aren't comfortable and we help them with those. We can help them with grief as well. And the best thing we can do with children is to help them understand this feeling when it comes as opposed to not knowing what to say. And we don't have to say a lot, but be sure that, as you said, what we give them is honest information, not something that we think feels better or is easier for us to say. And let them ask more questions and just be open in the conversation because kids have a lot of time to grow up after the loss and ask more questions and learn more things. And the biggest gift you can give them is to be open with them about it and to allow them to have their feelings and then help them with those.
Lisa: If anybody wants to look you up if they have questions or want to get in contact with you, how would they do that?
Michele: They can find me on anything as Good Grief Parenting. That's my website, that's me on Instagram, that's my link in linktr.ee. I am at goodgriefparenting.com. I invite anyone to make an appointment just to talk with me if you want to just pick my brain about a few things. You can do that from my website or from Instagram. You can use my linktr.ee link to set up that appointment. So, just remember Good Grief Parenting.
Lisa: Awesome! Well, thank you so much. I'm so happy that we were able to chat today.
Michele: Yes, me too, Lisa. Thank you for the invitation.