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The purpose of the show is to provide a critical examination of society and culture through the intersectional lens of race, gender, and class, more specifically it seeks to provide a COUNTER-NARRATIVE. The Show encourages a reflective assessment and critique of unique standpoints and their potential contribution to popular discourse.
I need to know everything. Who in the what in the where? I need everything. Trust me. I hear what you're saying, but allegiance. Know what you're telling me. I'm curious. George, I hop in the Porsche five and a horse. I'm ready for war. I'm coming for throws eternal ghosts. I need to know everything.
Hello and welcome to the counter narrative Show. I'm your host. Rasheem, tonight's episode is queer religion. We are joined by two very special guests. I'm really excited about getting into this topic queer this queer religion topic is really kind of connected to Art series that I recently did in Baltimore. It's a Art series, and it's the title of it, you could have guessed is queer religion. And what it is is really just exploring these ways in which queerness and religion has, some sometimes been seen as dichotomous, very separate things. But you know, most of my audience, you probably know that that is not true, and I've invited these particular two guests here because they are podcast. They run a podcast. It is called two rev no church. I'm just going to give a little bit of background on who they are and what to rev no church is about, and then we're just going to get straight into the questions around that. I Here we go.
Oh, wow, there we go. All right, so two revs, no church. Two reps, no church is a podcast with a visual component that is led by two queer women of color, rev de Saint and rev Megan, that takes God out of the religious Box and Into an open, liberating space to rev no church is what is missing within the theological community and sacred spaces from their words, we believe that The sacred space is not in the church building, not just in the church building, but is also where community and spirit gather for intentional purpose of love, connection and understanding. And the motto of two revs, no church is pray and play. This is who we are. I'm sorry, this is who we are and that that's the that's their motto. So I'm going to actually go ahead and get into talking to them and let them kind of do a little bit more explaining about their background and who they are and how they even got started. If you have any questions, feel free to put them into the chat. If you are watching this later on YouTube, you can still add your questions to the chat, and I'll try to make sure that I get those that get that information to them. So without further ado, rev the saint. Rev Megan, thank you so much for joining the counter narrative show. Yeah,
yeah. We're excited to be here. Thank you for having us.
I appreciate y'all so much. So I'm going to start with you, rev descent. Tell us a little bit about your background, and exactly how did you come to this work,
the work of a minister. Yes, shell. I am rev de Saint. I am originally from Miami, Florida. I am of Haitian descent. I'm Caribbean. And all since it runs through my blood. So if I say to all my Haitian, it is Haitian heritage month. So out there, yes, um, and so, you know, I, how did I come to into this work? How did the work find me? I really believe that we, we all kind of come with our come into this world with already knowing what we're called to do. And I believe that you know that I am divided. I've learned since that I am a Divine Being who have come with a particular mission to fulfill some particular work. And that is definitely aligned with, with faith and spirituality. I am a lover of all things sacred. I think I wrestle with with it more than anything else it with, with God, me and God be going at it. You hear me? Oh, so and so, and this is not the Christian god. This is not the Muslim God. This is just God, the divine, the source. And like, just always questioning, why am I here? What have I come to do? Why is this happening to me? And yeah, and in that quest to in my wrestle with God, I've, I've, I've sought out different faith traditions, spiritual practices, to kind of get to the answer. And you know, we always are looking outwardly for the answer, and the answer for me now almost 40 years old. Um. Mom has been that not not only am I the question, but I am the answer. So that was
good. Go ahead. I'm sorry.
So yeah, I mean, this is how the work has finally caught up with me, and I have accepted it. Because, in the beginning it is, you know, how do you come into the work? Is a search. It's a quest, right? And then you realize, hopefully we all get to that, that that stage in our life, if we're, if we're in search for truth, is that you are divinely aligned with this time this space to do the very thing that you're called to do, and you finally catch up with that truth and you live it out. Yeah.
Thank you so much for sharing it. I feel like that's so interesting, that that connection between we come into this world, knowing what we are divinely here to do, and also still grappling with that right, like knowing that that's our calling, or that's what we've been here to do, but still having this back and forth tug of war about that. I'm going to ask you a little bit more about that later on. Want to go over to rev Megan, tell us a little bit more about you and exactly, how did you come to this work?
How did I come to this work? So my name is Reverend Megan. I came to a kicking and screaming, kicking, literally kicking, screaming, nights crying. You know, I tell folks I had two callings, one, one calling is into my into my sexuality, into my queerness. And right after I accepted and knew that calling, and I answered it, God was like, Okay, now that it that you've accepted your Divine Self. Let me tell you all this God will call you to your Divine Self before God, before God comes to you and says, This is what I need for you to do. Because what's important to God is that you recognize your Divine Self and that you don't match that up against what the world is telling you to do. So God called me to my divine self, to my queerness. And then after that, God called me into ministry. And when God called me to ministry, I said, Well, God, what do you want me to give up? What do you need me to do? What do you you know? And God was just like, Nope, just come as you are. But I came kicking and screaming, because it was like, How do I do this? Like, what? Like, I didn't grow up in the church. My mother was a very much an emotional church goer. We went when she was upset, when when she was sad. So, you know, I wasn't in Sunday school. I went to seminary and they were talking about liturgy. And I was like, What the heck is a liturgy? Man, like, that's that's the worship, that's the form of worship in church. And I'm like, Yeah, I don't know about that. So I came having and building and wrestling with, as Reverend de Saint said, wrestling with my concept of God. It wasn't, I didn't have a concept of church, which I'm glad I didn't I was wrestling with and being pulled toward my concept of God and and who God is, and how God shows up in my life.
Wow, so much similarity in that aspect of like, that resistance to it. Can I hear from you both about like, what was that? What? What fed that resistance? What made you resistant to the calling
everything? No, that's a whole listen. I mean, um, I was raised in the church. Um, my my parents are not super religious. My parents are immigrant, you know, first generation immigrant coming into this world, trying to figure out life and raise a family. And my aunt, my great aunt, was the first person to like, you know, always bringing us to church and and then, then it was somebody else. And so I shared that to say that I got to see the ins and outs of church. Church. Church was the place where I love to be and hated to be at the same damn time. You know, it was the place that you got scold, but then you had that lady on the in that same pulpit giving you that, that candy, that red candy, you know, so, you know it was, it was the place that you were celebrated and scold, and it was fearful, because, you know, church also was that place where they made you so afraid of God. The my foundation of church was always this, this god that was fearful, that was out to get me, that, you know, anything that I did wasn't right, you know. And yet, God was love, right? And so I think that. Was, for me, my biggest resistance, because it's like, why are you calling me to this place knowing that mortal man that I am, you sinful man, sinful man that I am. And I use the word man because those you know terminology, not for gender, but, but yeah, and so, why are you calling me knowing all you know, you know my God, and you know what these people in the church is going to do to me. So, so I resisted that. You know, I did. I did not. I did not want to be part of that particular church culture, and yet and still, there was this relationship that I was cultivating, I was building with the divine that seemed so counter narrative. Wanna drop that word. So appreciate that. Appreciate that. Yeah, yeah. You know, I got you, you know, we Virgo
sisters. It is not that season Joe, but
counter narrative to what, to what I had experienced in the church, like I was experiencing something totally different. I was really experienced a love that was divine, like, despite who I was like, in spite of who I was like, or because of who I was, God was even loving me even more because of the journey I had experienced, because of the heartache, because of because of what God has called me to do. I am going to love you through this because I need you to get to this point where imma need you love other people through whatever it is that they're going through. And so, yeah, that's the resistance. Because church work is hard work, and it's, it's hurtful work, and even knowing this, you're still being pulled and called to it.
Oh, I can, like even as you're saying it, I I'm seeing that, that connection where it's it's a place where you love, you've been raised, there's these, there's community there, and there's also this history, this hurt, this pain, and so that's like a difficult space to navigate Reverend Megan, you said something earlier that I found just like so beautifully said, and I really would love for you to expound on it. And you said, Not only were you called to the ministry, but you were also called to queerness. Can you talk a little bit more about that? So,
you know, for me, I just, I honestly believe that, that even though folks can be queer and engage in and that can be your identity, right, but you don't have to live it out loud, so you don't have to That's your business. I do believe God was calling me to live it out loud like, like I felt it. I felt the pulling. I felt the No, you're not running from telling your family, because you're going to show up on Christmas and you're going to show up in your fullness and you're not going to be ashamed. I felt a pulling to to live that aspect of me. I felt that calling to live that aspect of me out loud. And I understand why, because it's totally connected to the ministry, to the to to the flow of the way God has allowed me to move in life. It's it's really connected me to that, because it's almost as if God was saying, child, I don't need you to run from yourself, because I need you. I need to move in you. So if you run from yourself, you're going to run for me and and you won't be able to do what I've called you to do. So that's my story. That may not be anyone else's story. I'm not telling anybody to run out there, if you are queer, to run out there and live out loud. I'm telling you, this is my story. This. This was part of my calling. Yeah, yeah.
I love that. And I've never heard anyone really say in that, in that particular way. You know what I mean, that their queerness is something that they were called to. But I could definitely see how showing up living in your fullness and still in pursuit of this particular path, is work, is a is this is a mode of spiritual practice and something imagine that a person is is called
to rushing. I'm sorry, just for a minute, I think I for those who are listening, and I think this point is necessary. And I think this, this is a universal truth. And I shared this with Megan before, and I know. Megan is saying that she's called to queerness, but I think we are all called to ourselves. Your calling is to yourself first, your Higher Self, the alignment of who you be. In order for you to do that, which you are called to do in this life, in this realm of life, you know, life doesn't end once. Once you die, life continues on. We we may not know what life was. Was there before we got here, we made such certain agreement, before these souls enter these bodies to live it out and it will continue. So just to just translate or kind of make clear, I think for everyone, this universal truth is that we are indeed called to ourselves and to our highest self. So I just wanted to make that, make that clear, and that's your first call, and that's your that's your first. Oh, sorry, I do that when I'm
I usually jump and run, but I'm so used to it first call that your first calling is to is to yourself. That's your first calling when you wake up, that's your first that's your last calling before you go to bed. It's, it's, it's like it you are bookend by the possibilities of you. And
this is not ego, please. No, I'm calling to myself. No, no, no, no, no. The only way that we are able to show up as ministers, like really show up for other people is because we are aligned and we are true to who we are, so that we can reflect that which because, if you believe in the the idea of Ubuntu, you know I am because you are, you know therefore you are, namaste. You know I'm saying or love your neighbor Do unto others as they do unto you. You see all of these, and these are all different walks of life, these sayings, but they're all the same. You know, being being able to reflect back that which you are, and seeing, seeing, seeing yourself in other people, all of this is the universal truth that you must we all, I believe we are all called to come into some of us are just unable to sit with ourselves long enough deal with ourselves, long enough to come to that realization, so that we can be a part of a community. And it's
and it's hard, because you have to come to terms with your mess too. We don't. We don't just sit up here talking about coming to terms with the sermon we preached and how well the prayer was. No, we sit up here and go, You know what? You know what I did last week, you know? So we sit in it with with our mess, and that ain't easy.
I feel like that's such a profound message that your first calling is to show up and be your full self. Um, it reminds me of something that I've told my daughter. I feel I told her, You owe it to yourself to become who you were meant to be. But I really love the fullness of that we almost made me shout, oh, okay, I forgot I gotta be it. You see, when you when that right, when
that happens, do
on, seat belt
on? No, I totally get that. I want to hear more Reverend Megan about the ways in which you not having that similar background as rev to st, in terms of like going up in the church and knowing these particular terms, how that supported and helped you in your journey,
supported and helped me. It was it was hard, because I'll give you this story. It's going to be really fast. I was in my last year seminary. I was in an African American worship studies class, whatever, and they were talking about, when you are baptized, if you say, Father, you're baptized in the name of Father Son and Holy Spirit. Does it? Does it count if, as does that count, as well as if you just say, if you baptize someone, and say you're baptized in the name of the Father and Son, and don't mention the Holy Spirit. So they were talking and talking. I was sitting there like, this is some BS, what are we talking about, it's people outside hungry, and we talk about, does the baptism matter if you and I'm looking and I'm just like, so I don't know why the professor, I think, felt my defiance and looked at me, looked at me and was like, well, Megan, what do you think I said, I think this is silly. I think in a couple of years, I said, in five years, we won't be talking about this as the church, and if as the church, you are still talking about this, there is something wrong. I said, Do you understand what our children are dealing with? And we sitting up here debating about baptism? I said, I truly don't care about baptism, and they just looked at me. No one liked me in the class. So I say this. Let me tell you. I say this because it was challenging. It was challenging. That's good,
no, I think that's a good point. Meg, because here's somebody who was born and raised in the church, and I was baptized, and I believe I'm like, I was 13 years old when I was baptized, you know? Because that's the the age of understanding and the Baptist Church, right? And I was baptized. Us to two other times after that, because of all of these doctrines and dogmas and things that because I'm like, oh, did I really get baptized? Oh, am I? Am I getting in heaven? No, seriously, and it's not funny, but I'm sorry, no, but that's what it does. You know, I'm saying, and then I was like, No, this feeling the same way, like, why am I doing this? Like, this stuff. I mean, my last baptism, I was literally in seminary. In seminary, get baptized again. I never heard this. Wow. I know we are talking about that, but listen, I got, listen, I'm good on. I got the father three times. I got the son and I got the Holy Ghost. Listen, they probably
gonna need you. Probably gonna need a fourth.
Hello, I am the daughter Messiah. Hello,
for nobody, though, let's be clear. Like that super highlights the ways in which um, uh, churchiness could get in the way of your spiritual experience. Rules struck like the way do this? Sit like this, dress like this, don't say this. So many different religious ideologies that come with all of these different rules about how to show up as a human being and not about showing up as your full self, right? So if anything, one of the things that you said earlier, Megan, was, you know, what I got to give up, what I got to stop doing, which is a way of like, you know, it's a way of like, I feel like. It's one of the ways in which we're told we're not told to be ourselves. So so that was very interested in sharing rev de Saint. The title of your podcast is two revs, no church. Tell me about why no church. Why is that in the title?
So it's, it's funny, but it's Yeah, so it came about, I have to tell you the story of how, the how the name came about. Megan was at work and I was home, you know, I'm self employed, and, you know, me my own experience wrestling, you know, I'm like, I ain't got no church. And so we were, like, trying to think of a name, and I just randomly said to Meg, because I ain't got no church that, since we're too rare, it's too red, no church. And so I'm jokingly said this. Meg
was like, That's it.
But when you break when we break it down seriously, like we do, we are not a part of of a church per se. Even though we were ordained, I'm Baptist. Meg is UCC.
Let's make sure they know that means it's United Church of Christ. I just wanted Yeah,
and, and and, we do not have a congregation like I do not have like I I've done interim pastor before. I've been an associate pastor. Um, I actually, this year, left the church like, seriously, decided that the church, the structure, the brick and mortar, is no longer for me, though my calling is still intact. You know, I know what I'm called to do. So, yeah, I mean, that's the concept, you know, just two revs who've been who've been trained, who've been ordained, who have lined up the word for themselves and experience God and taking out the brick and mortar structure of what we the idea of what we think that is church. I think the name itself will draw more people to take part of the gathering, the gathering in which, you know, we hope to build with this podcast that
definitely makes sense to me, another part of the blurb about two revs, no church that I read Reverend Megan is the set the there's a section that says, Two revs, no church is what is missing within the theological community and sacred spaces. Can you tell us more about what it is that to rev, no church offer that hasn't been offered, or that is missing.
Wow, that was in the blurb. Was it? So it is, it's there. So I think what it is is that, you know, I'm gonna say it like this. I was trying to think of a very intelligent answer, like intelligent sounding, but this is, this is just it is that we are real with it. We come like one, one episode for our podcast, which will be launched in June. One episode, we end up crying together at the same doggone at the same damn time. And. And we didn't plan so, so we're like, we're very transparent. We are not here to flaunt the what we know in terms of what we learned necessarily in seminary. We're healed here to struggle with what, how we are showing up, and how we are being in a world where we are connecting with with our God Self, and also with the divine. So that's why it's different, because I'm we're not here to tell you, like, I don't to pray, to pray this many times. We're just here to tell you, like, look, this is a challenge, and this is a struggle, and we're going through it too, but at the same time, there's joy, there's promise, there's hope in it, and and where are you? And that's the tension that we're standing in. Yeah, and we don't perform.
We don't rehearse. One of the things that that we are when we come to to our seats, all we have are topics we, that we that we mapped out last year, in 2020 we have topics. We have scripture. We don't discuss. You know what we're going to say? We as we're to rest, but sometimes we have two opposing opinions on certain topics, and we just allow ourselves to unfold right before the people. And that's really different. Let me tell you, um, we, I was trained to, yes, be prepared in and out of season, know your word, know your scripture or whatever, but also, like, know the text enough, bring yourself to the text. But there's a lot of studying that's happening and and one of the things that I always, I always love to say, is that we are the living text. We are our own canons, and so we are able to bring our own lived experience to this life and speak on the divine in that way. That's what the that's what sacred text is. All of them, you know, they are recorded life experience of how people journey with themselves, with God and with others. And so if we are already doing that, we've already created a sacred text within ourselves. We can do that. We can show up and say, Yo, this is how I have journeyed with myself, with others and with the divine. Yeah. So
if I could go ahead, so, so one of the things that, if I could just mention my denomination again, UCC, United Church press, what the motto of the UCC is. God is still speaking, meaning the last book of the Bible is revelations. That is not the last time that God spoke. And a lot of people get uncomfortable when I say this is that the Bible should not form your life. It should inform it in some way, but it should not form it, because, like Reverend Greg the saint said, is that we are all walking testimonies and books of the Bible. So if you think you aren't a book of the Bible or book of a sacred text, or book beyond the Bible, right, whatever sacred text you read, if you don't think that, I need you to revisit yourself and revisit your understanding of who you consider your higher power to be, because you definitely are sure.
Thank you for that. Rub the saint. One of the things, another thing that came up in the blurb is your both of y'all intersectional identity, right? It says that it's a visual, I'm sorry, it's a visual podcast that is led by two women of color, two queer women of color. Why was it important to make that distinction about your identity
so it's a visual and audible? So we're doing both because we want to reach the masses, because we believe that visualization, representation matter, and the the queerness, the one, the woman, the woman is part. Why is that important? Is because there are, there are not enough us showing and of representation showing up and to the fullness, right? Um, I am not, you know I, I am not one who feel like, you know my, my, my identity is, is a calling. Because my identity, if we had a if we had a time to, like, throw up pictures in my past, like it has changed. It has I have transformed. And I believe those those beings that I was as I transformed in that journey, this life that was me too, right, but where I am now, knowing who I am and who God is, that in itself is, is a bit queerness. And so some people think that queerness from let me define for me how I understand queerness to be. People limit that to sexual orientation, to gender, your preference. I say that you are there. Queer like talking about queer religion, the fact that you're able to journey and fluctuate through different sacred spaces, that's queerness, right? You're not limited in the box, right? Queerness is being out of the box, exploration, just being able to fully discover and not get fixed in one way of being. So for me that that that's how I understand queerness and so, um, there are times when we sit down, um, and we're not talking, even though our foundation is Christian. I mean, I'm I'm wearing a Buddhist beads right now. You know I'm saying, we're talking about Mooji, we're talking about saying sitting and alignment and meditation and mantras. We're talking about all other religious practice and ways of being. I mean, I'm, I'm a yogi, you know, certified. Um, things have that has journeyed, that I've journeyed and got me to where I am right now. All of those things are important, and to be able to speak that truth, I believe, will open up doors, especially for this generation coming up. The reality is that folks ain't coming into to the brick and mortar church to hear the word. They're not like people are not going to be sitting down for hours to hear the word and and and hear, you know, a praise and worship. They're not. They are going to look for those individuals who look like them, who are giving a message that that is aligned with who they be. And so this is why we put that out there right then and there. So this and also when it, when we when it, when it comes to a time when folks are able to, are not able, are ready to question, you know, or criticize, why we do what we do. There's really no room for pushback, because we've already laid it out. There is, is that good? Is am I? Am I? They're gonna sit Oh, you
you think so everybody's going to like us, just
but, and that's the that's good, that's the also the flip side of it, because when you see or hear the show, and especially aside from us, the people that we have on there, for those folks who are who are stuck in their own theological framework, when you see and hear these individual it come in All their divine goodness, there is no way you cannot there's no way that you can deny their own divinity. And if you do, that is something that you need to sit with yourself. If there was a place called hell that folks live in because there was a place I don't believe in the concept of hell. Hell in heaven is in the mind and it's here. But if there was a place those folks who really have the critical eye are quick to judge with their mouths and their lips, maybe that's where their soul was will rest. But I say to those folks, the moment that you're able to critique or think or say something or think something. This is the time that you need to sit with yourself and wrestle with your own theological framework, because these people are divine, divine. There's no way you can deny on who they be.
Thank you for sharing that. So we talked a bit about the the aspects of queerness, the the importance of you have it in the blurb of about your the aspects of your identity, and a bit about grappling with even coming to ministry, there are several texts that are set cited in like Christian, I'm sure, in other religions as well, but the one that I'm most familiar with, this Christian that you would have to memorize, let me tell you that, because I'm just going to say them here. So there are several texts often cited by Christians who condemn homosexuality, right? So there is Noah and ham Genesis not I mean, I won't read each one, Sodom and Gomorrah, Levitical laws. I mean, there's several Romans, several texts that that Christians use to condemn homosexuality. Do you ever preach from any of those texts? And if so, what do you say about them?
The first question is, no, I don't. I don't particularly preach for for so you, you mentioned Romans, and Romans have what you call the household poles, right? And. In the household codes, it's basically putting people in place. Women, this is what you should do. Men, this is what you should do. Children obey, you know? So these are household codes, right? And I don't preach from it, though. I've I've learned from them, I've done Bible study, I've taught from them, because I think there needs to be a teaching more than a preaching around them. Usually, when I hear folks preach around they make they mostly get it wrong. They don't give content to these particular scriptures, um, and I know most of the ones that you were mentioning, but I'm going to try to generalize, um, um, where people get it wrong, and why I don't particularly preach from it. Um, I don't preach from it because most of the people that do not have the ear to hear. Revelation says, for those who have ear, let them hear right. Most people do not have the ears to hear. Why don't they have the ears to hear, because they haven't had good teachings around them. And so the teaching must come first, or if not, the teaching the experience. You must have a lived experience to say, like, oh, okay, now I have ears to hear, eyes to see. And in general, most of these texts the content of what is happening historically, culturally is that they are establishing community. Okay, there, there's something like, I believe, there's the scripture that says to not waste the seed. The seed was the most important, you know, did that more so than the woman's womb. Okay, what understand woman, back then were considered, I mean, up to, like most recent, were considered property. It wasn't the woman, it was her womb. That was property. Why? Because this is the play. This is the incubator. This is where we can develop and build a community. You don't waste the seed, the seed being sperm, the the man seed, because we need to build community. Why do we need to build community? Because we need to have a community large enough when adversary comes against us, we have an army big enough to what to do, what protect our property, to protect our land. And so if everybody is is is living this queer homosexual life, we are not building our community. The village is small when we come to get attacked. We don't have enough men in the forefront. Hence why male are valued more than women in the forefront to fight and win over or win over the land or regain land. So that's what it mainly and this is really general. This is like really abbreviated. That's what was really about. It was really about building community, building a land building empire. You know, I think, I think it's so easy to look at the text, um, and and look at it in a way that I'm uh, that struts that immediately struck homosexuality. But just as you look at that particular text, and you're able to do that for those who are homosexuals, um, you have to also look at then woman, you be in position, then slave, those who are slave, right? The household codes that you being in position if the book says that you are a slave, so act accordingly and obey your masters, right? And so like we really need to start looking at the text, either we're going to follow it full on, which we're not look at the world we live in now, or we're going to really discern, and we're going to break down the text and see what is going on historically and why the people are operating and functioning the way they are, so that we can understand what's going on. I mean, look at what's happening now, right? 100 years from now, 100 years from now, they're going to be like, yo. They were wearing masks because everybody had, I mean, they're not, it's not even going to be COVID. It's going to be like everybody they were married, wearing masks for whatever reason. Make make it up, and then that's going to be Bible, right? People going to believe it to be so, oh, they're not touching each other because they had some type of disease or whatever. But we are the ones that know the truth. We're living this living spirit, but how it's recorded, how it's interpreted, over time, those interpretation change, and unless you do some deep excavation of the. Text, knowing what's what's happening culturally, what was happening historically, like, there's the historical context. That's the cultural context, if you we don't get that part of the teaching, oh yeah, homosexuality, you are damned to hell. Women, you are damned to hell. Slaves, you are damned to hell because you're not you. You're not obeying who the white patriarchy, you're not obeying empire, you're not obeying government. And so if that's the case, if we're following the bible from that time and interpret it that way, we are all damned to hell.
And imma say. Imma say one thing, there's about six or seven texts out of the entire Bible that talks about homosexuality and that word did not exist back then. And if we are looking at it, looking at this from a biblical text, Jesus never says anything about it. So we are followers. If you are reading the biblical text as your sacred text, and you are a follower of Jesus. Jesus never says anything about it. That's, you know, that's like you walking in the house, and your mama or daddy or your guardian doesn't say anything about this one thing. And you like, Oh, it must not be that important, so you got to think about
it like, and I'm gonna give you some pushback. I mean, listen, the the pushback is like, well, this is,
this is Rasheem show. Dashes. It
we get, I'll say, I'll get a lot like, Okay, well, everything about G every word of Jesus wasn't recorded,
right? So let me ask this question from from what you were saying, rev the saint, is it that the Bible is not a like a moral co directional book? It is just a historical reference, and those codes and rules were needed for that specific time, but it's not a, it's not a guiding moral code. Oh, that's a
You see, I just shifted,
um, morality, um, oh, Rasheem, um, the book sacred texts have do have moral components to it,
but we all enter this world
in different space and time. I say that because, if we're looking at the Christian sacred texts, and I go to predominantly Muslim nation, right, um, and I give this to you to say, this is your moral code, it's not Going to work, right? Um, I believe it's really about discernment. Um, there are things that we are able to read and look and like. How do I discern for myself? What works for me? There are a lot of, there are a lot of the most, the most moral, moral narratives for me that has guided me through the text are the ones that are often not preached about, and it's the women that shows up in the sacred texts. You know, the women that are not named, the women who, who claim their rights. We talk about the three daughters, who, who, who, the Father, the the father had no sons, and they claimed their their father's land, because they were women, they were denied, and they had to go before the king and said, you know, my father did not have no, no sons. Do I not get the the right to claim my father's land? And so that is, that's a teaching, right? You got Ruth, you got Esther, you know, you got, you know, there's the whole thing, you know, with, with, with, with Naomi, like there's, there's so many teaching there that can ground us and teach us about how we should show up in the world. And we have to discern. We have to discern when we read the text, what is, what is right, what is just, not only for ourselves, but all that we encounter in this world, all that we encounter, not all who we encounter. When I say the Earth is the Lord and the fullness there, I'm talking about the animals. I'm talking about the trees, I'm talking about the birds, because even those things are spoken and mentioned in the Bible. So Christian sacred text. So I think it is important for us to discern that there's a text I'm going to get to you, Reverend Megan, because I feel your energy calling. There's a text that says the the Bible. Um, is everything in the is valuable, right? And so everything in the word is and, and I wrestled with that for a while, right? I wrestle with that for a while, um, and I think it is both in if you there's a text that all that will cancel out another text, there's a text that's going to affirm another text, right? And remember, in the beginning of this, this show, we said that, but you are also a text. And so when a text confronts a text, or encounters another text, and this is a text, I'm a text, if it is, if it's aligned with me, then I journey on and I discern, and I pray and you know, and we journey on. If the text does not align with you, find another text. And so you we, you learn how to discern that and I, and that's what I think about all sacred texts,
and this text, specifically, the Bible, aligns with you. Hmm,
the Bible has been my foundation. It's not the only text that aligns with me. The thing that speaks to me, if I'm honest, the thing that speaks to me louder than anything else has always, has always based, first and foremost, has been music and poetry. And so the arts II, consider myself an artistic minister, because it was the arts that allowed me to see God divide in a different way. And so I like to teach God through the arts, or show God explore God through the art. So for me, A Song of Solomon, you know, I don't some poetry in there. And so that that particular text does speak to me, because the way it is written poetically, I love the Message Bible, the Bible remix, um, when I first got a hand of that Bible, and some people have problems with it, I was, I was a teenager, but I could understand it, because it spoke in a way that really spoke to this creative being that I am, and it allowed me to see the Bible differently or or understand it. For those who have here, let them hear See, like eyes let them see. And so you have to find that text, that sacred text, that aligns to with you. Some people might be, it might be Audrey Lord. It might be Tony Morrison, you know it might be James Baldwin, you know what I mean. And all of these were power Thurman, and all of these may be sacred being. And these and these individual have left text for us to to read and to to explore. And they reference, they reference other sacred texts, right? And I, I think the Bible, the Christian sacred text, in some way. I don't think it'll ever be non existent, but it's kind of dissolving, or it's blending in with other sacred texts where we can, we can glean from it, but it's not going to be the source for for moral understanding.
Reverend Megan, did you want to add?
So Earlier you asked, you said, Rasheem, you asked me, does the mean not growing up in the church? How was that supported, and how did that kind of help me? So because I didn't grow up in the church, I didn't have a relationship with the Bible. I had a relationship with God. See, here's the thing. Is that when I said earlier that the Bible should inform and not form your spirit inform, because it's the relationship with God that forms who you are. And then you go to a text, like the Bible or another sacred text, and you and then that informs what God is pouring pouring into you, what God has already and what God has began to pour into you. A lot of folks have a relationship with the Bible, and they don't have a relationship with God, and then you begin to speak to them, and they're like, Well, I don't know, you know, they have a very robotic and very, just a very robotic way of engaging with their spirit. They don't, they don't go beyond the text. They stay trapped in a cage within it, not understanding that God is bigger than the biblical text and something that that the very sacred text is God. God is God itself. Yeah. And so you'll find people spewing out, spewing off text, all day, every day.
You know, can quote, can quote the Bible. Listen and and for me, I can't quote the Bible. I can tell you stories, because that's how my creative mind, like, I know stories. I can tell you the narratives. I can tell you how folks journey with God, but I ain't going to quote. No. Scriptures. I mean, there's one, you know, For God so loved the world he gave his only begotten Son, and so whoever believeth in him will not perish, but live in turn. But those are the things like, you know, foundationally as a kid that I was given. Um, yeah, keep it at that. But
I also think this, like the folks we read about in biblical text, they weren't walking around quoting biblical text. They were walking around engaging with God. They are the one that listen, you know. So it's like, it's like, if you if, if we don't engage with God, don't go pick up the Bible until you start engaging with God.
I shouldn't say that, no, pick up the Bible. But here's the I mean, if you're going to pick up the Bible, pick it up with a critical eye. Pick it up with a creative eye. Pick it up with a discerning eye, like pick it up with a relationship. And every time you pick it up with whatever eye you choose to open, you know, open and look at it that your interpretation, your understanding of that sacred text is going to be different, right? Um, but here's the thing, everyone who's written the the text that we have, and I'm talking about the Christian cycles. That's my content. No someone is observing and writing down what is, what they are encountering from base, what they are observing verse. There are few books in the Bible where the actual person that actually experienced it is actually writing it down. Let's take the synopsis, Matthew Mark Luke right. Matthew Mark Luke and John John's, you know, but you look at those books, these are individuals who are looking at what is happening and recording it down based on how they are seeing it, based on how they are experiencing it, based on what they think they know about the relationship with Jesus and the disciples. You'll see Peter like Jesus ain't saying, Hold on for a minute. I know you're about to wash my feet, but I gotta write this down so these folks don't know, Jesus ain't recording these things. And so that is so important to understand that there is a reason, you know, why did the author write it the way that they did? Why are they reporting it this way? Oh, this author was an attorney. Why? What you can tell this, oh, this author was a fisherman in the language, you know, I'm saying there's, there's so much more to these texts that we don't give it enough, we don't give it enough excavation to really understand it for ourselves. And that's what we do to people, right? We do that, you know, going back to coming back full circle, to queerness, we look at these sacred texts and because the way they show up in their queerness, and we don't give it no space to really excavate and learn about the other. And so we give it, we look at it with such, with our narrow lens, and we judge it, and we we ostracize it, we marginalize it, we put to the side. We say it isn't the vibe, it isn't God, it isn't holy.
Thank you so much for that. So we are getting to the bottom of the hour, and I want to make sure that I am honoring both of your times, before we close out, I wanted to ask both of you tell us what is to rev no church as a collective up to next. How can people find and follow and engage with the content? Also, I believe both of you individually have things that you're also working on. How can people find, follow and engage with that information as well? I'm going to start with you. Rev Meg Megan,
so two reps, no church. Just go to Instagram. Two reps, no church. Number two revs, no church. That's where you can find most of our stuff there and our engagement with you and what we're doing next. You can go to the website, also two reps, no church.com, two resident church com. You can go to the website, and you can sign up for different things there. But really go to the Instagram page. Go to the IG page, because we have a lot of videos on there and a lot of things that are coming. So for myself, one thing that I love to do, I'm a chaplain at a psychiatric hospital, but also I do spiritual coaching, and that was birthed for me, being a chaplain out of in a psychiatric hospital, and spiritual coaching is just me helping you to liberate yourself, because sometimes we get in our own way, so I set up things. It's not therapy. There have been moments where people have come to me and gone, well, I need help with this. I'm like, oh child, that's therapy. We going back to where you at three? No, we imma send you someplace else. But liberation, in terms of the fact that in this moment you may be experiencing some sort of hardship, that you need this wall, not that. Down, and you don't know how to knock it down by yourself, so I'll walk with you through it. You can go to Megan mcleod.com and that's where you find everything about me. Megan mcleod.com
Well, you did to residential church. Oh, and I wanted to correct. We preach, pray and play. Those are the our model. We preach, pray and play. I am rep the saints. You can find me at rev the saints on most of like, Twitter, Instagram and Facebook. And one of the things I'm not, like I said earlier, I'm an artistic minister. I have a platform called TTY Ola, not theological talks you like or not, and this is where I get the opportunity to sit with some amazing people, and I talk about what they do, how they show up in the world, but also how they journey with the self, divine and others. Um, it's it comes out every first and third Sundays of between seven and nine. Um, go on YouTube. Check out those. Those shows. They're great, great, great, great conversations. Um, that are that will be wrapping up. I have one more season of TTY, all or not, because I really want to focus in on two resident church. So this I'm in my second season. I got one more season to go. And you know, we'll see where all go. Follow me on IG rev the saint, awesome.
Thank you both again, so much for coming on the counter narrative show. This has been an episode queer religion. If you are watching live, please feel free to share this out. If you are engaging with it later, still share it out comment. Put something in the comment section. Follow to rev snow church. Follow both rev the saint and rev Megan. Thank thank you to my guests, so much for sharing of your time, your talent and your energy. I appreciate you, and I would like you both to come back on the show. I'm saying that it's recorded. I want to see your response, and I want to record it as well
what's going on.
We will be glad to be back.
Thank you very much. And everybody heard that, all right, this has been the counter narrative show. Have a good night.
I need to know everything, who in the what in the where I need everything. Trust me. I hear what you're saying, but allegiance. Know what you're telling me I'm Curious George, I happen to pause for five and a horse. I'm ready for war. I'm coming for throws to turn to a ghost. I need to know everything you.