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There’s no silver bullet in sales. But there are proven processes, better questions, and the right kind of leadership, and that’s what we’re here to talk about.
On Sales Against the Odds, we dig into the real challenges SMB leaders face and share sales strategies, tactics, and hiring best practices that actually work.
This isn’t about making sales sound easy or polished. It’s about what really happens in the field. The horror stories, the humor, and the humble moments, we cover it all.
Each episode, you’ll walk away with two things: stories you can relate to, and tangible actions you can take back to your business.
We won’t pretend we have all the answers. But we’ve been there, we’ve seen what works, and we’re here to give you the best shot at building a sales-focused company that drives results.
[00:00:00] Karen Mozenter: Everything we do is sales. We are continually having to tell our story, talk about the impact we have, the people we serve. We have to engage people. That's how we attract the resources we need to do the work.
[00:00:26] Lee Brumbaugh: Welcome everyone to another episode of Sales Against the Odds. My name is Lee Brumbaugh, CEO of Sales Xceleration, and I'm very excited to have Karen Mozenter with us today. Karen is the CEO of Jewish Family Services in Columbus, Ohio. over the last nine years, Karen has really helped Jewish Family Services grow and how they impact the community, how they've scaled, utilized resources to really make an impact.
[00:00:53] Lee Brumbaugh: The agency has been recognized for impact in the community, a best place to work, and really on the forefront of innovation and growth. Excited to talk to Karen today because there's so much we think about nonprofit world that ties into really how you grow and develop. So Karen, thank you so much for being with us today
[00:01:13] Karen Mozenter: It is my pleasure
[00:01:15] Lee Brumbaugh: Well, just to get us started with Karen, and again, I was really excited for this episode because we focus so much on in the SMB community.
[00:01:22] Lee Brumbaugh: You know, the nonprofit space really has so many unique areas of growth. But I'd like to learn first for the audience, how'd you get into the, the nonprofit world? How'd you get into Jewish Family Services? And talk to us a little bit about what you do in the Columbus, Ohio community to make a difference.
[00:01:38] Karen Mozenter: well, I did not have a direct path to this role to this work by any means. I started out as a lawyer. I worked in a big firm. I worked at Ohio State University as a lawyer. I taught middle school for a decade. I taught language arts, which turned out to be highly relevant to what I'm doing, surprisingly.
[00:01:58] Karen Mozenter: I worked in philanthropy for a few years up in Cleveland. I did some consulting work for non-profits. And when I was looking for my next gig, an informational interview led me to this, and, uh, suddenly my crazy career path made sense because everything I've ever done, I need to do this job. And the learning from all of those and the skills I gained from all of that suddenly made sense.
[00:02:25] Karen Mozenter: So, what we do at Jewish Family Services is we're a human service agency. The word Jewish is in our name, but we don't just serve the Jewish community. We serve everybody, literally people from every ZIP code in Central Ohio and, and way beyond actually. and we help families stabilize, so that may be helping with basic needs like food or housing, connecting people to community resources, whether it's public resources or resources of, other organizations like ours.
[00:02:58] Karen Mozenter: we provide financial counseling. so that's our family stabilization side. We work with, seniors and their families and caregivers as they navigate age-related challenges. one of our biggest lines of work is workforce development. That is helping people get jobs, and that's everybody from entry-level, first job, all the way up to C-suite.
[00:03:20] Karen Mozenter: And we work with a lot of local businesses, helping them, recruit, onboard, train, and retain talent.
[00:03:30] Lee Brumbaugh: So a lot of entrepreneurial ways in, in how you help different companies, and obviously helping candidates along the, the way as well. And really cool to hear about the impact obviously that you've made and how you've expanded the, in the Columbus marketplace. You know, a lot of folks that are listening will be from the SMB community, and we know that there's, you and I have talked about this, but there's such, there is nuances of nonprofit.
[00:03:51] Lee Brumbaugh: But what's misunderstood about the nonprofit world as far as growth goes, running a nonprofit organization? What, what stands out apart of what people maybe don't understand?
[00:04:02] Karen Mozenter: One is that people view us as do-gooders, and we do a lot of good, but we don't get recognized for the extent of our e-economic impact. That's a huge misunderstanding and misconception. and then the other thing is that we're not perceived really as being businesses or understood for how entrepreneurial we have to be to survive.
[00:04:26] Karen Mozenter: we have to continually innovate, the services we offer as community needs are changing. the way we're funded is... I came in from the private sector, and when I realized how the funding works for nonprofits, it was mind-boggling the challenges we have because of the way we're funded
[00:04:47] Lee Brumbaugh: we know the landscape is always shifting in the nonprofit world of, of how you grow and how you get funding. Talk to us a little bit about what sales means for your organization. Like, When you approach it, and you, you obviously still have, even as a nonprofit, you've got targets, you've got goals.
[00:05:01] Lee Brumbaugh: what does sales mean for your landscape?
[00:05:04] Karen Mozenter: Lee, when you first asked me to do this, I thought, "Sales, hmm. Sales, nonprofit." And then, then I took a breath, thought about it more, and I thought, "Oh my gosh, everything we do is sales." we are continually having to tell our story, talk about the impact we have, the people we serve. We have to engage people.
[00:05:23] Karen Mozenter: That's how we attract the resources we need to do the work. that is selling. It's relationship management. It's with public officials. It's with local companies. It's with philanthropy. It's with donors. And we're also working on it with our own, with our board and our staff, helping them understand that part of their role is to be selling, although we don't talk about it as selling, necessarily.
[00:05:50] Karen Mozenter: But it's, you know, we want them to understand the role they play in helping tell our story, helping, frame our impact, and attract resources so we can keep doing the work and meeting community needs
[00:06:03] Lee Brumbaugh: Yeah, I found it really interesting because where we've seen a shift in business development and sales, like we're all in, in data with calls and emails. And it's harder and harder from a new logo perspective to gain new business just by kind of that cold outreach. But so much of what works in today's environment is really having your whole organization be a part of the sales process, right?
[00:06:21] Lee Brumbaugh: It's, it's how we make an impact, how we evangelize that, how we educate that. Let's start a little bit with a comment that you made, though, around board members, I found that very fascinating when we last talked. You've done a good job of, you know, we, we know board members don't wanna necessarily be out there selling, but they have connections and relationships.
[00:06:39] Lee Brumbaugh: How have you leveraged the ability to utilize some of those relationships that are embedded in the community to really open up doors for Jewish Family Services?
[00:06:49] Karen Mozenter: we're much better at that than we used to be. You know, boards are typically, they know about their governance role, oversight of the finances, those types of things. one of the biggest things that we try and help our board members take on to benefit the agency is to be champions for us, for the work, and to give them the tools they need to be able to do that, to be able to, to sell for us.
[00:07:15] Karen Mozenter: So it is about sharing their passion for the work, why did they get involved, our board members are wonderful. they love our mission, they love the work we do. They are very passionate about that. So if we can get them to share that passion with people in their networks, talk about why they got involved, invite people to visit us and take a tour, invite them to any events that we might have, make introductions, say, to companies who might wanna work with us on meeting their hiring needs, host gatherings.
[00:07:47] Karen Mozenter: I think there are any number of ways board members can engage, and because we do a lot of different things, it's really on us to give them the tools they need to be able to do that. it's talking points. It might be a toolkit. You know, here's how you can use social media and leverage your contacts.
[00:08:04] Karen Mozenter: We've also started doing some relationship mapping. it's very typical for nonprofits to do that for donors, the more sophisticated they are with donor relations, they're doing that kind of mapping and engaging board members, to connect with donors and potential donors.
[00:08:23] Karen Mozenter: We're expanding that. I mean, we're doing it with donors now in new ways, and we're using technology to help with that, which is also a challenge that nonprofits face, is being able to have the resources to have the infrastructure and the technology we need. but so we're doing it with donors, but we've extended it now to, to businesses, to public officials, to philanthropic leaders, business leaders.
[00:08:48] Karen Mozenter: I may have already said that. But it basically, it's who are the people who have the ability to help us or to influence decision-makers, and being able to leverage those relationships. So it's, it's a whole lot easier for a board member to, you know, for us to go to a board member and say, "Hey, do you know anybody in this company?"
[00:09:09] Karen Mozenter: Do they have a philanthropic arm where they might want to give? Do they have hiring needs? Do you know their HR people? Do you know somebody who, there who might want to join our board? They're on the board of this other organization, or they know this city council member or county commissioner or whomever, you know, to really understand those relationships so that they can help, help us
[00:09:32] Lee Brumbaugh: with Sales Xceleration, we have a very active board, and they've done a very great job of opening doors. But I think to your point, you've got to be very intentional with it, right? If you come in and say, "Who can you open up doors?" what you're talking about is, "Here's how you open up the doors.
[00:09:44] Lee Brumbaugh: Here's specifically who we're looking for. Here's the relationship mapping." And so if you're an SMB company listening to this today, you've got influential people that are associated, tied to your company, whether it's loosely or on a board. Taking the time to relation- map those out and put in specific strategic initiatives to draw out their contacts can be hugely beneficial, 'cause we still know people buy from people that they trust and know.
[00:10:07] Lee Brumbaugh: So I think the way you've approached that is very smart, of how you've opened those doors
[00:10:13] Karen Mozenter: part of that is getting the right people on your board too, who reflect the diversity of our community and the networks that we wanna connect with, and kind of deploying them and deploying our, our staff too. I mean, really years ago, I remember when I first became CEO, and somebody asked me about, what is your vision for the agency?"
[00:10:36] Karen Mozenter: And I thought, it's not about my vision, it's about our vision, and it's about what is it the community needs, and what's our, the role that we can play." And we started, our senior leadership team. I said to them, " This isn't about me just being out in the community as the face of the agency," which of course I am, but they are that too, and they have the opportunity to be out there, you know, be on, serve on boards yourselves, join...
[00:11:03] Karen Mozenter: We're a part of many different community coalitions that are addressing all the, the issues that we're involved with, whether it's, it's housing, it's digital skills, it's, financial literacy, it's, workforce, it's healthcare, it's all kinds of stuff, mental health.
[00:11:20] Karen Mozenter: They're the experts, and they can be out there in the community representing us. not just our senior leadership, but really all of our staff members.
[00:11:28] Lee Brumbaugh: we've talked about kind of the, the high level, right? But for that, let's go down to that front lines person that's helping, as you mentioned, consultating with the company, helping maybe taking that, that member of the community to find a job, to place them, to train them, to make sure you walk alongside them so they stay engaged with that business.
[00:11:46] Lee Brumbaugh: How are those people viewing it? How have you taken that, that message and trickled down, like, growth in community involvement? How does that trickle down to that front lines employees who's really dealing with the candidates and the companies themselves?
[00:12:00] Karen Mozenter: I feel it's hugely important to have your, your team, your staff understand that every one of them, the role they play is so important. I remember early on when I was here someone shared a, a success story with a client, and one of our staff members, who was a receptionist at the time said she was happy to play just a tiny role.
[00:12:23] Karen Mozenter: And I'm like, "No, that's, that is not a tiny role. You're the face that people see when they walk in the door. And the compassion that you show and the kindness and the professionalism, that sets a tone for us that is critically important." So helping, helping staff members all understand that they, whether they're working on data, whether they're working directly with clients, whether they're interfacing with businesses, whatever it is, it's all critical to our success and, and also empowering them.
[00:12:55] Karen Mozenter: Like we do a lot with staff where we engage them in... You know, when we're making strategic decisions, I'm all for over-communicating transparency, really helping them understand why decisions are being made the way they are and, and they're the experts. you know, we are always evolving the way we deliver services and, you know, who we're reaching out to in the community.
[00:13:21] Karen Mozenter: They're the experts on the ground level. They're the ones that are working with clients that know community needs. They see who the partners are that we might engage with. Our frontline staff have really driven a lot of, a lot of our innovation and, new program, delivery methods over the years.
[00:13:37] Lee Brumbaugh: Most companies don't have the bandwidth to build a high functioning sales department to allow them to meet the revenue targets with Sales Xceleration they don't have to. Our experienced fractional sales leaders consult and implement your sales strategy, infrastructure management, and team development.
[00:13:54] Lee Brumbaugh: Discover how we deploy these proven sales solutions to address your sales challenges. By going to our website, filling out the contact form, we'd love to hear from you.
[00:14:07] Lee Brumbaugh: I really like how you're adapting to, again, what you're learning from them in the trenches of dealing with candidates and dealing with people that need these services, and then adapting and evolving to that. one of the things you mentioned early on, I mean, you, you gave the description of what Jewish Family Services does, and you, and you mentioned stuff like staffing, onboarding, training, these are things that are often done in the private sector.
[00:14:30] Lee Brumbaugh: how do you think about, like, mapping, you know, a value proposition that stands apart, that's unique to a nonprofit when you really, in s- a lot of respects, are competing with services that are offered in the private sector?
[00:14:43] Karen Mozenter: Well, we are working on that right now there has been so much change, over the last year and a half in how nonprofits operate. There've been just huge challenges, and our whole funding model has really been upended. the majority of our resources came from public sources, public funding.
[00:15:03] Karen Mozenter: Much of it was federal money that came down through state and local, like state and local government. and then we had philanthropic money and donations and very little earned revenue. And so we have been working very hard over the last year, to flip that because a lot of the public money has dried up And we know the work is needed more than ever, so we have to find new ways to do it.
[00:15:31] Karen Mozenter: So one of the things we're most known for is our workforce development and the work that we do with companies where we're helping them recruit, hire, onboard, train, retain talent. but we've done that for free because we've had grants that have paid for our staff who provide those services.
[00:15:50] Karen Mozenter: And so we've tried to figure out new models to charge for it, but it's been really challenging. now we're in one of those if not now, when moments, because the grants are drying up. I mean, we can't charge for something if we're also paid for it by a grant, because that is double-dipping that the public funders will not will not be happy with.
[00:16:12] Karen Mozenter: But if the grants are gone, we can go back to those companies and really make our case and talk about the ROI. You know, what is your cost to, to hire, to retain? More to your question, how do we set ourselves apart from private sector, say, placement agencies? You know, we bring them, we pre-screen the people, we will do training upfront.
[00:16:37] Karen Mozenter: We'll go in and work with the business to really understand their needs and, the culture of the workplace and all of that, make sure we get people who are the right fit. And then we provide ongoing support that is really different from a lot of what's available in-- from private sector?
[00:16:55] Karen Mozenter: companies, in that we are constantly troubleshooting to make sure that those placements are successful and that the relationship continues.
[00:17:04] Karen Mozenter: a lot of the job seekers that we work with come from backgrounds that the companies may not be familiar with. they may not have the same education, even though they may have a skill set that fits. They may come from a different culture. there are a lot of differences, and we can help companies navigate that. So we continue to provide those ongoing supports and build the relationships so that we can help both the company and the employees be successful
[00:17:35] Lee Brumbaugh: so for these, companies, you basically are working with one,
[00:17:40] Lee Brumbaugh: How do you scale it to other types of companies like that?
[00:17:42] Lee Brumbaugh: how are you looking at what's working here and then turning that into like a good ICP that you can take at other places?
[00:17:49] Karen Mozenter: Sometimes that's been challenging because we've worked with companies before and, and they love what we bring to them, and they don't necessarily want to share. Like, we've asked them for testimonials or things like that. That hasn't always worked because sometimes they, they wanna, like, keep the secret to themselves so that they have this pipeline that we give them.
[00:18:08] Karen Mozenter: we still can build the case for companies. everything we're learning with each company we work with about, asking the right questions, making sure we understand their needs, The thing we really have to learn about is how we do a better job of monetizing it
[00:18:26] Karen Mozenter: and really establishing the ROI.
[00:18:30] Karen Mozenter: And we have to flip the switch on how we talk to companies too. Because in the past, it's been from the perspective of we're helping people get jobs. and now we're, we are gonna have to develop a whole sales team and structure that takes a different approach, which is about solving companies' problems.
[00:18:53] Karen Mozenter: it's been what we've been doing already, and we have some people who are already bridging that gap, but it is really a different mindset, and we're gonna have to use language differently and more aggressively sell our services.
[00:19:06] Lee Brumbaugh: it'll be a mindset shift, you know what you can deliver, you know the value. Now it's just about making sure it monetizes and stands apart from the competition because now you're, you are gonna have to do an apples to apples or at least apples to oranges type comparison from a cost standpoint,
[00:19:19] Lee Brumbaugh: so
[00:19:20] Karen Mozenter: we have had some experience with, I'd say in logistics, we have a large multinational company that has a warehouse, facilities here in Columbus. We've worked with them for years to, help them with their hiring and they've been paying a fee for it. So that's been on a kind of a per person plus some philanthropic support.
[00:19:43] Karen Mozenter: we wanna scale that I think we can use that to help figure out the ROI for those kinds of entry-level roles. And then we want to build that relationship or with companies like that where we can then get people into higher level roles, whether upskilling.
[00:19:59] Karen Mozenter: Say it's we've done forklift training, we've done other types of jobs that get people out of the entry-level jobs into higher level jobs. another example is we've had a relationship over the last couple years with a large, pharmaceutical healthcare company, and we've been training, for them, people for pharmacy tech assistant jobs in their stores.
[00:20:21] Karen Mozenter: So, so that is something that we're doing for this one company. They're basically paying for a person to do that training, Now that we know how to do that training, we wanna get to the point where maybe the model changes, and we can sell that to other companies and offer seats in the training, so they can pay us for it to have a certain number of people, and then have access to, to hire those people at the end of the training.
[00:20:46] Lee Brumbaugh: Makes sense. And again, a nice natural evolution of how you're approaching delivering value for one client and seeing where you can replicate it in efficient manager- manner that does, again, deliver ROI, which is where the shift is coming. I'm gonna take a step back on this, and one of the areas that really stood out to me is a lot of the SMB community struggles with education, awareness, branding, like how it impacts social.
[00:21:13] Lee Brumbaugh: I've seen some of the things that you post, Jewish Family Services posts. I think there's a lot that you do. So how have you used, albeit education, brand awareness, to drive things that do bring in donors, that do bring in grants, that do bring in, like ... How have you used that as a resource? 'Cause I think there's a lot that the SMB community, a $5 million manufacturing company could do a lot better with that I think you do very well.
[00:21:35] Lee Brumbaugh: So can you elaborate that on, on
[00:21:37] Karen Mozenter: Oh, thanks. when I first came here, I kept hearing o- over and over how we were a best-kept secret. that's not what we wanna be. We, we want people to know what we do so thatif we can help them, they'll come to us, and they'll come to us before they're in a crisis so that we can be more effective in helping them.
[00:21:56] Karen Mozenter: We need to not be a best-kept secret if we're gonna attract funding for the work. So we've been really intentional about that. we have one board member she just left our board. She has her own PR firm. And the first time she came to visit, we were doing a tour, and she was meeting a lot of our staff members and learning about the different services we offer, and she kept saying, "Who knew?"
[00:22:17] Karen Mozenter: So that became our, tagline, "Jewish Family Services: Who knew?" Who knew we did this? Who knew we did that? Who knew we helped 600 people get jobs, and it generated $25 million in, wages in a year? Those kinds of things. so I'd say we've, we've been intentional. we've tried a number of different strategies to get the word out.
[00:22:39] Karen Mozenter: So one is social media and just, telling, making sure that our people who are doing so many things are communicating with a central person so that we can get things out in social media. Sometimes it's challenging to tell our stories because people come to us at a point in their lives where they're feeling vulnerable.
[00:23:01] Karen Mozenter: You know, they just lost a job. They're trying to figure out what's gonna happen with mom who's showing signs of dementia. It's I'm about to be evicted. those aren't people who necessarily want to be interviewed publicly and talk about
[00:23:16] Karen Mozenter: the most vulnerable point in their lives. there are people who, once they're on the other side of that, wanna talk about how we helped them.
[00:23:24] Karen Mozenter: sometimes that's challenging. we've tried to gain earned media by building relationships with, with journalists, by pitching stories, those kinds of things where we can show the impact we have. I would say we've been strategic too.
[00:23:43] Karen Mozenter: I'm thinking about, this past year, we've done a lot of work with the Columbus Chamber of Commerce, helping businesses navigate our changing world and especially changing immigration policy. Columbus has a very large, foreign-born community who have been crucial in the growth.
[00:24:03] Karen Mozenter: It's one of the main reasons why Columbus is one of the few cities in the country, and especially in the Midwest, that is really seeing rapid growth. And a lot of that is due to immigrants and refugees who've moved here. there's been a lot of change in that area over the last year and a half.
[00:24:20] Karen Mozenter: So we've done some sessions with the chamber to help with HR professionals and other leaders in local businesses to offer learning sessions for them in how do you navigate this changing landscape? How can you still hire talent? what are the things you need to be aware of? We've brought in lawyers to do that.
[00:24:40] Karen Mozenter: I'd say that's one community education tool. Another strategy has been to get involved in some of these coalitions I mentioned, where, where we're working with partners to address critical issues, and then we can be a spokesperson on some of those issues if it's one of the areas where we feel like we've got expertise and can take a lead.
[00:25:02] Karen Mozenter: one other thing we're working on Right
[00:25:04] Karen Mozenter: now is, this is a community education this is sales strategy. we're taking photos and collecting the stories of Holocaust survivors who came from the former Soviet Union. it's a very different story than the traditional Holocaust survivor story that people are used to hearing.
[00:25:24] Karen Mozenter: And it's one that if we don't capture it now, it will be lost. We're working with around 100 Holocaust survivors who have that type of story. and we happen to have-- I have a colleague who, in addition to, working here for 22 years and leading our, a lot of our service areas, is a professional photographer and documentary filmmaker.
[00:25:46] Karen Mozenter: So he's had exhibits around the country and, so he's taking the photos. We've brought somebody in, a professional journalist who's doing the stories, and we're hoping to have this exhibited at local, a local museum or gallery or other public space. So it, it tells an important story, it advances our mission, it connects people to the work that we do, and hopefully will bring in support for that work
[00:26:14] Lee Brumbaugh: That's amazing. I mean, think the big thing is I've got is all your education is centered around stories that really tells your mission and how you serve. so often we get, we get into social, and it's, uh, features and benefits. It's a slick thing, but what really makes an impact is when you are telling the story, and it makes an impact in the community.
[00:26:31] Lee Brumbaugh: I think you guys have done a great job doing that. SoI mean, you've made such a difference in the community. and this is outside of Sales Against the Odds. I'd love to hear any unique story that, that's close to your heart
[00:26:42] Karen Mozenter: there's one that I've told several times about a woman she moved here from another city where she had only been working in really low-wage jobs and, was barely getting by.
[00:26:55] Karen Mozenter: She was a single mom, and she had a sister in Columbus, so she moved to Columbus to live with her sister for a while. She thought she could find better job opportunities here, and her sister would help her with, childcare and a place to live temporarily. So not long after she moved here, her sister died suddenly and unexpectedly.
[00:27:15] Karen Mozenter: Her car broke down. she didn't have a way to support herself, and she was forced to go on public benefits. Not, not because she wanted to, but because she had no other option. we run a program that helps people who are receiving public benefits, get job training and work experience and employment.
[00:27:35] Karen Mozenter: So she came to us. We helped her secure housing because she had lost her housing. We helped the kids. We helped with food assistance. We helped the kids with clothing and toys for the holidays, that kind of stuff. And then we got her into job training, and then we got her an interview with a local employer.
[00:27:55] Karen Mozenter: She got some work experience. We got her an interview with a local employer. They liked her so much. one of our, program folks went to this employer, said, "You have to interview this woman. She's really great." They said, "We don't really have any openings right now." And he said, "No, really."
[00:28:08] Karen Mozenter: They had a long relationship, so they trusted him. They interviewed her. They liked her so much they interviewed her for a better job that earned more money. and she ended up taking that job, you know, going off public benefits, being able to support herself and her, her kids.
[00:28:24] Karen Mozenter: It's those kind of stories that, I'm so proud of the work that we do, the people that I get to work with who work with our clients every day. it's really rewarding when you have the chance to really affect the trajectory of someone's life and, and take them from a place where they really don't know where to turn and help them have the tools they need to, make new choices and set goals and, and move forward in a really positive way.
[00:28:53] Lee Brumbaugh: Amazing story. Like you said, I'm sure there, there's tons of those. But it, you know, when you're changing the course of people's lives and not only their lives but their children's and their families, what an impact that you guys are able to make in the community. So Karen, I thank you so much for this.
[00:29:05] Lee Brumbaugh: I mean, I think the big takeaway is obviously there's so much to take away from this today, but you're a nonprofit, and even when you think about that, you've talked so much today about leveraging your board members, your connections, relationship mapping I think is critical in the SMB space. I really love the top-down approach.
[00:29:19] Lee Brumbaugh: Your entire company is evangelizing your message. To fuse it from a sales standpoint is opening new doors, and you're taking that information to evolve your offerings and then really telling your story through social and those types of things and making it resonate in the community. I think those are all powerful messages to take away from today.
[00:29:36] Lee Brumbaugh: So thank you so much for joining us, Karen.
[00:29:39] Lee Brumbaugh: Appreciate it. This has been another episode of Sales Against the Odds. Everybody join in in two weeks where we'll have another, uh, business leader who creatively talks about how to grow and evolve their business. Thanks everyone.