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Most of us learned pretty early that anger was a problem. Maybe you were told to calm down, stop overreacting, watch your tone, or keep the peace. So you swallowed it, turned it into jokes, aimed it at yourself, or let it build until it came out sideways. And for a while, that may have worked. You got through family dinners, stayed in relationships, avoided conflict, and kept other people comfortable. But there is a cost to treating anger like a flaw instead of a signal. In this episode of Lu...
Most of us learned pretty early that anger was a problem. Maybe you were told to calm down, stop overreacting, watch your tone, or keep the peace. So you swallowed it, turned it into jokes, aimed it at yourself, or let it build until it came out sideways. And for a while, that may have worked. You got through family dinners, stayed in relationships, avoided conflict, and kept other people comfortable. But there is a cost to treating anger like a flaw instead of a signal. In this episode of Lumen, hosts Christopher Mooney, LCSW and Kenyon Phillips, LMSW explore anger as information, not a character defect. Drawing from psychology, philosophy, body-based awareness, and Viktor Frankl’s idea of the space between stimulus and response, Christopher and Kenyon examine what anger is actually trying to tell us, why it often points to crossed boundaries, ignored needs, violated values, or unresolved fear and pain, and what happens when it goes underground. The conversation looks at resentment, anxiety, depression, self-criticism, chronic tension, cultural messages around gender and anger, and the difference between feeling angry and acting aggressively. The episode also offers a practical path toward working with anger more consciously: noticing it in the body, asking what it is pointing toward, separating the feeling from the reaction, choosing a proportionate response, and finding healthy ways to move that energy through. Anger doesn't have to mean exploding, disappearing, or becoming someone you don't want to be. It can be data. It can be direction. And it can be one of the clearest ways that the deeper self says, “Pay attention. Something important is happening.”
To book a free consultation with Christopher, Kenyon, or the other providers at Lumen Therapy Collective, visit lumentherapycollective.com.
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Right Here is for educational and informational purposes only and is not a substitute for therapy, diagnosis, or treatment. If you’re experiencing a mental health crisis, please contact local emergency services or a trusted mental health professional.
Right Here is a mental health podcast that explores the psychological patterns shaping our relationships, choices, and inner lives. Hosted by therapists Christopher Mooney, LCSW, and Kenyon Phillips, LMSW, each episode offers grounded, compassionate conversations rooted in clinical insight and real human experience. No jargon. No judgment. Just clear, thoughtful dialogue designed to help listeners better understand themselves and the people around them.
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Lumen, a
podcast that sheds light on
mental health, relationships,
and what it means to be human.
I'm Christopher Mooney, LCSW.
SPEAKER_01: And I'm Kenyon
Phillips, LMSW.
Each episode we unpack
psychological patterns that
affect our relationships.
No jargon, no judgment.
SPEAKER_00: Just thoughtful
conversations to help you
understand yourself and others a
little more clearly.
SPEAKER_01: All right.
You ready to rock?
I am ready to talk about anger
because most of us learn pretty
early on that anger is a
problem.
SPEAKER_00: We do.
We're also taught to be
suspicious of anger.
Like to hide it.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: We're supposed to
hide it, soften it, apologize
for it, spiritualize it,
intellectualize it, give it a
euphemism.
Like we get to say we're
frustrated, irritated,
overwhelmed, disappointed.
But you know, underneath very
often, the the core of it is
we're just angry.
And then we're going to get to
even really what's underneath
that, too.
Because remember, as as I've
gone on and on about anger's
always secondary.
Right.
But but I think anger has a
terrible reputation, and it
doesn't have to be seen that
way.
SPEAKER_01: Aaron Ross Powell I
mean anger's there for a reason.
It has an evolutionary purpose.
It does.
It's protective, isn't it?
It is protective.
SPEAKER_00: It can be used as a
boundary.
You know what Kenya, I think
often anger gets conflated with
aggression.
And it's it's not the same
thing.
Aggression, when I think of it,
has this level of cruelty to it.
Right.
And anger's not the same thing.
You can be angry and not cruel.
SPEAKER_01: Aaron Powell Yeah,
yeah.
It doesn't have to have
maliciousness attached to it.
SPEAKER_00: No.
SPEAKER_01: What if we just
looked at anger as data or as
information?
SPEAKER_00: Aaron Ross Powell
Absolutely.
That goes back to you r
referencing the boundary thing,
right?
If if we look at anger as as
information, then we're looking
at it in and to understand that,
hey, you know, I think I just
had a boundary that was crossed
or something's feeling unjust or
something doesn't feel right.
Maybe something wasn't met.
Maybe my my fear or pain has
been triggered.
SPEAKER_01: Right.
Exactly.
And so it's it's it's telling
you something, and it's telling
if there are others around us
when we're angry, it's telling
them something very clearly.
SPEAKER_00: Aaron Powell Yeah.
You know, and I think about how
many people and this is this
goes way beyond just the work we
do, right?
But if we think just as a as a
human being, like the level of
like anger and that that kind of
like how many times do you feel
like I just don't want to feel
angry all the time.
I don't want to be angry.
And and I never want to feel
that way.
That's not the goal.
The goal isn't to never feel
anger.
The goal is to understand anger
and then maybe listen to the
data that's coming through.
Right.
I think that's true with most of
the things we talk about, which
is like how do we take the
emotion and and interpret the
information that's coming in and
then respond in an appropriate
way and not just react.
SPEAKER_01: Right.
Right.
We respond being the key word
there.
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's a big
distinction between respond and
react.
So reaction for those listening
is when when we we just act
immediately.
Just off of a without thinking.
Yeah.
Off of a gut response.
A response is when we think
through what we're feeling and
we we take a moment and then we
we kind of have a more
intentioned action.
SPEAKER_01: Aaron Ross Powell
Yeah.
There's a pause so we can be
intentional and th think and not
not blow up at somebody.
But there is healthy anger,
right?
I mean that seems to be what
you're doing.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
And I think I think so.
Let's let's talk about how
anger's not the problem.
Yeah.
Right.
And how it's it's actually I I
think it's one of these really
misunderstood emotions.
SPEAKER_01: Aaron Powell Why
does it get a bad reputation?
SPEAKER_00: Aaron Ross Powell
First of all, I think it's it's
we have to look at where it's
treated as as bad.
Right.
So it gets it it gets labeled as
bad because I think people do
conflate it with aggression.
Right.
And I think most of the time
people don't want to deal with
managing uncomfortable emotions.
And ultimately it's
uncomfortable.
Right.
Because if I get angry at
something you say, the
information that I I should be
paying attention to is, hey, I
had a boundary crossed.
Something you said left me
feeling not okay.
Right.
That's much different than than
just lashing out back at you and
saying in in in anger.
So I think in order to have that
conversation about that space,
about about the that feeling,
that's why it gets labeled as
bad, because people don't want
to have that conversation about
that feeling.
Right.
Because it it it it just takes a
lot of work.
It's a lot more steps.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it is.
But it's interesting.
It's easy, I think, to it's
easier maybe to for us to get
angry at people we don't know
and we don't care about.
SPEAKER_00: That's true.
SPEAKER_01: But when, you know,
the the scenario you're
describing where a boundary is
crossed and something needs to
be said because I'm angry or
you're angry, having to frame
that within a context of a
relationship adds a lot of
pressure.
SPEAKER_00: It does.
The the other thing that really
happens is that, you know,
again, anger, the the actual
emotion is not the problem.
It's what we do with it, as it
is with many things.
But so we can feel angry, but
then anger becomes violence,
contempt, punishment, sarcasm is
a is a huge one.
I I mean I've had to really tone
that back over the last 20
years.
Control, emotional intimidation.
We talked about gaslighting and
that that kind of like, you
know, subvert kind of like way
of of being angry.
But it can also anger can also
add clarity, it can be
protective, as you said before,
it's a protective factor.
A boundary.
It can add honest.
For sure.
So I think it's it's really what
we're looking at here today is
that anger's not the problem.
What we do with it can be can be
a problem.
And and if we go back to some of
our other conversations, and and
I keep thinking of Victor
Frankel and like that, you know,
the input, right, then the
space, and then the output.
Right.
Right.
That space is where we really
want to we really want to focus.
And that space can be very small
and short, or we can really work
in our lives to expand that
space.
So in in this context,
something's information's coming
in and that space that we have
the ability to choose is very
narrow.
Right.
And then we end up getting
angry.
And then that's and then we and
then the the reaction becomes,
oh, how how am I going to lash
out or yell or or fight or do
whatever it is?
But really, if we back up, we
can start to look at, you know,
do I want to do I want to do
something negative here?
Or do I want to use this space
to do something positive?
Right.
SPEAKER_01: Right.
And use the use anger in a
healthy way.
Sure.
What is anger telling us?
SPEAKER_00: Aaron Ross Powell
Anger's an emotion, but I would
make the argument and bet a lot
of money that it is always a
secondary emotion.
I do truly believe that anger is
always secondary to pain or fear
or both.
And ultimately, we are afraid to
feel pain as human beings.
So this is a human condition
just like anxiety.
Right.
We're so wired to avoid pain.
And that's emotional pain,
physical pain, mental pain.
Right.
So we'll do anything we can to
avoid it.
Anger becomes a defense
mechanism.
Anger becomes the secondary
response.
And I think of this like you're
driving, somebody cuts you off,
or they start tailgating you, or
whatever it is.
You start to get really angry
about it.
Right.
Often, most people aren't
terribly worried or suddenly
like, oh my God, what's
happening?
Most people get like this, what
is this guy doing?
And they there's a you know
stream of vulgarities
afterwards.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
If we look at it, we can
actually move that back to like
a fear.
There's a fear we could get
hurt.
Now we're not registering that
in our brain.
We're like, what's up with this
jerk in front of me, like
cutting me off and then like
brake checking me?
But the fear, if we just go back
to that primal thing, is if that
guy jams on his brakes or
something happens, I'm gonna
plow into his car.
Right.
There's there can be a real fear
there.
Interesting.
Yeah.
And the same thing when you stub
your toe, the first thing that
comes out of your mouth is not
typically like, oh my God, this
hurts so much.
I mean, kind of, but usually
people start going off like
anger.
Yeah.
A bunch of a bunch of MFs and
everything else that come out of
your mouth.
Or when you using a hammer and
you accidentally hit your thumb
with a hammer.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: Think about all
these times that you do little
things that we actually respond
with anger.
Right.
And underneath that is pain.
Yes.
And that's physical or or fear.
Because fear hurts us, right?
So that that's kind of like it's
it's one of those things where
you don't we don't want to feel
the fear and we're gonna we're
gonna use it.
Yeah.
And so I I would make the
argument that any situation
you've ever been angry in, we
could work it back to either
being in pain or being afraid.
I love it.
It's a fun exercise for
everybody to try, actually.
Next time you get angry or
angry, or you think about or if
you think about a pastime that
you've been angry, and I'm
talking about even when I get
annoyed and frustrated and and
angry that like my kids aren't
brushing their teeth and going
to bed on time, right?
It's because I'm already
attached to some preconceived
idea that I need to have happen
that night.
Yeah.
And therefore I'm actually in
like some kind of like emotional
pain that that's not happening.
Right.
And so it hurts.
And which sounds so absurd when
I say it out loud right now, but
it is the it's just a natural
thing that happens.
And then I get angry and I'm I
start raising my voice, like,
come on, go to bed, brush your
teeth, go to bed.
And it and it starts and it's
and it winds up.
Yeah.
And that's the other issue.
Anger will wind up because those
needs aren't being met.
Remember, so we feel angry when
our needs aren't being met as a
defense.
SPEAKER_01: It's amazing.
It's such a great formula.
SPEAKER_00: It is.
And I feel like it's I don't
like to apply like I I don't
like to say that there's like
one formula for everything, but
I feel like for anger, this kind
of works.
It's it's anger second to pain
and fear, and then work work
backwards.
Right.
You know, I think that's uh I
yeah.
I love doing that.
Looking at like, okay, what what
was the issue that happened?
Now let's step back and see
really where this came from.
Right.
Because that's going to inform
how you make those other
decisions and you can be more
aware of that process earlier in
the future.
SPEAKER_01: Aaron Powell So if
I'm aware of that process as I
just became highly aware of it.
And I and so so I'm like, okay,
I'm there's fear and pain
underneath this.
Let me skip the anger.
What happens when I start like
active when we start actively
avoiding anger?
SPEAKER_00: Aaron Powell Don't
avoid anger.
Anger's not the problem here.
So you don't want to be somebody
who never gets angry.
Okay.
Then you're not really being a
human and you're you're actually
limiting it's it's like anxiety.
Anxiety tells us something, it
tells us to pay attention.
SPEAKER_01: Right.
SPEAKER_00: Anxiety is not the
bad thing.
How it makes us feel is the bad
thing and what we do with it,
and we perseverate on it.
Anger's not the bad thing here.
It's what we do with it.
Remember, so the goal is not to
be somebody who never becomes
angry, it's to become somebody
who can be angry without doing
all the other stuff that's bad
afterwards.
So don't become cruel, don't
become mean, don't say things,
don't become like sarcastic and
passive aggressive and all this
stuff.
You want to be somebody that can
listen to your anger without
being ruled by it.
That would be like, okay, so if
I'm feeling angry right now,
what's happening?
SPEAKER_02: Right.
SPEAKER_00: What's causing me to
feel this way?
Is my anger appropriate?
Is there something I need to pay
attention to?
Did somebody cross my
boundaries?
Then for your own process, you
can say, yes, that hurts, or
yes, I'm afraid of this.
But those things can exist with
anger.
You know what I mean?
You could say, I'm angry and
it's because I'm hurt.
I'm angry it's because I'm
afraid, but I'm still angry.
Right.
I'm just not going to lash out
because of it.
SPEAKER_01: I think it's so
helpful to be able to say I am
angry in a moment of anger as
opposed to being mean.
Yeah.
Making a sarcastic comment,
screaming and yelling something
abusive at somebody, just to be
able to say, I am angry, and
then to be able to say it with
anger seems healthy.
SPEAKER_00: It seems healthy.
But now think about your life
and people you cross paths with.
How many people, if you were to
say, I'm angry right now, would
retreat because we have this
idea of anger, because we think
of anger as a bad thing, right?
Because we conflate it with all
those other issues, people will
cringe.
People will be like, Oh, I don't
want Kenya to be angry.
I don't want so-and-so to be
angry.
So instead of actually just
looking at, hey, I'm angry, and
here's why, because my need was
unmet, I'm afraid.
Yes, being able to express it is
extremely healthy if you can
express that verbally.
SPEAKER_01: Right.
What happens when anger goes
inward?
SPEAKER_00: That is a great
question.
And it is kind of the working
definition for depression.
Okay.
Yeah.
When when we think of anger
being turned outwards, it's
aggression.
When anger is turned inwards, it
is depression.
Yeah.
And underneath anger, we have
pain and fear.
But then there's some other
feelings that pop up in there
too.
And I don't I don't want to
leave those out because they're
that we've talked about a bunch
of them and they're actually
really important.
So we can think of anger being
the protective like kind of dome
over pain and fear, over shame,
over grief, powerlessness,
rejection.
I think of exhaustion, the
acronym HALT, hungry, angry,
lonely, tired.
If you're any one of those
things at any time, stop and fix
that issue, like treat that
issue.
Anger goes with exhaustion.
When we're tired, we have less
resilience to deal with things
that bother us.
We become angry.
And also if I think about it, if
we've had a need that's been
ignored for too long, anger
comes out as resentment then
too.
You know, think about a
relationship.
And for those of you listening,
think about like a relationship
in your life.
You've been speaking, but
somebody hasn't really met your
need or listened to you.
I hear this all the time from
people.
Oh, you know, so-and-so.
They don't really listen to me.
They haven't heard me.
I I want to have a voice, but I
don't have a voice.
And out of that comes anger and
resentment towards the other
person, towards the situation.
And going back to what you asked
before, what happens when that
gets turned inward?
It turns to depression.
SPEAKER_01: Right.
SPEAKER_00: So anger turn inward
is depression.
And anger turn outward is
aggression.
SPEAKER_01: Totally.
I love the point about
resentment.
And when we have expectations,
that's often the the mother of a
resentment.
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01: And you know, if if
I have an expectation, if I have
an idea of of of a specific
outcome, and then that outcome
doesn't actually happen, the
resentment starts to bubble up
and turns into anger.
SPEAKER_00: Of course.
Anger also comes up when we feel
vulnerable.
Like if you if we if we feel too
exposed, it's a really helpful
protective factor, actually.
Right.
When used correctly.
But that's if we feel exposed or
vulnerable or weak, we're gonna
react in anger.
So it's something might be like
I I mentioned before, you never
listen to me, it means that I
don't matter.
SPEAKER_01: Right.
SPEAKER_00: If I like called you
a bunch of times or text you and
you didn't and you didn't write
back, it just means that I'm
forgotten.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
Feeling neglected definitely
leads to anger.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
You know, if I if I feel a
certain way, I'm like, yeah, I
don't want to talk about it
right now.
Just can you give me space, give
me time.
Just I don't want to talk about
it.
Ultimately, when we push away
people when we're upset or
vulnerable, we use anger being
like, leave me alone, get out.
Kids do this all the time
because they don't have the
vocabulary and the ability to to
synthesize this and ask for what
they need or to verbalize it.
So you'll see this with kids.
They're leave me alone, get out,
get out of my room, and they'll
yell and they'll push.
What they're really saying in
those moments is that they're
really embarrassed and they
don't know how to manage that
feeling of being hurt and
vulnerable in front of us.
Totally.
Yeah.
Totally.
You think about anytime your
kids push back, it's really this
thing is happening.
They don't know how to manage
the vulnerability and the
feeling they're having in that
moment.
Right.
We hear the word big emotions
used all the time now.
It's that so big feelings.
Big feelings, yeah.
If a kid is like trying to like
figure that out and they're
experiencing it's overwhelming
them.
I think I've talked about this
before.
My my daughter used to get upset
when she was five.
She'd storm up the stairs and
then she'd come back like 30
seconds later and be like, I'm
sorry.
She still does it.
She gets upset, she'll apologize
right away, which it's just it's
an amazing thing.
But she explained it and it
sticks with me every day I think
about this.
She's got seltzer in the brain.
That's that feeling.
Like I don't know how to deal
with it, but it feels like a
bunch of bubbles going off in my
head at the same time.
Right.
If I think about it, that's the
same way I feel when I get
angry.
It's like bubbling up and it's
just popping in in my head
because I should know better.
The shoulds.
Um I should know better.
I should know how to act.
I should know how to I do this
for a living.
I should know certainly how to
verbalize a feeling.
But anger still happens.
SPEAKER_01: I love that.
And I love the example in
children, and it it is relevant
to adults as well.
I mean, we as adults, we feel
embarrassed when we can't manage
the anger and when we don't want
to be seen.
SPEAKER_00: Or we feel
embarrassed and then we use
anger to push people away.
So it's it's like both things
can happen.
And so we we might we'll we'll
push away people, we'll destroy
relationships, we'll do all
sorts of fun stuff.
I just want to touch on sarcasm
because I grew up in a family
where sarcasm was just that was
used heavily along with guilt.
Like that was the currency of
the family dynamic.
But sarcasm was like this thing
that I thought was really funny.
And I think it was at a job
once, and somebody said, you
know, your your sarcasm is
actually you're just angry.
I must have been like 20
something years old.
And and I was like, what are you
talking about?
And they're like, no, no, no,
just take a look at it.
Your sarcasm's really just
anger.
And I was like, okay, well, I
should probably take a look at
it because I really respected
this person.
And I looked at it and I was
like, oh no, sarcasm is anger
veiled in wit.
Right.
That's all.
It's not actually funny.
It can be if it's a little like
fine-tuned and not about
somebody, but often sarcasm's
like an attack on somebody.
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00: And it's putting
somebody down to to make
ourselves feel better, but it's
done in a way where where we're
veiling it in wit.
And it was kind of gross once I
once once I thought of that, I
was like, oh, that doesn't feel
nice.
SPEAKER_01: Well, the word
itself comes from Greek word
meaning to rend flesh, to rip
flesh.
It's an attack of sorts.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: So if we look at
sarcasm, and for those of you
who who love sarcasm, it is, as
Kenyon just said, ripping the
flesh.
But it is it's just veiled
anger.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
You know, I love the seltzer,
your daughter's seltzer idea of
how anger lives in the body, how
it's experienced in the body.
Things like headaches, stomach
issues, discomfort, just like
tension that never goes away,
back pain.
I've I mean, like I always come
back to it.
The body keeps the score.
That's right.
Um, but if an emotion isn't
moving, isn't being processed,
the body's gonna hold on to it,
the body's gonna store it.
And anger can show up that way
too.
Of course.
Definitely with like headaches.
SPEAKER_00: Headaches, ulcers,
right?
Any of this, like, you know,
high blood pressure, the
cortisol, increase the the heart
rate, you know, just everything
that we think of Cortisol being
the stress hormone.
The stress hormone, that's
right.
Everything that we think of is
bad for us.
It's it's it can be fueled by
anger.
SPEAKER_01: Totally.
SPEAKER_00: Anger and chicken
parm.
SPEAKER_01: When I'm really
angry, I need like this a three
chicken parm day.
Absolutely.
That's such a good point,
though.
Like what we do to to deal with
our anger does include feeding
it.
SPEAKER_00: Of course.
SPEAKER_01: Seeking comfort.
SPEAKER_00: Seeking comfort,
seeking food for comfort.
We can lash out and we blow we
blow it off, but then when we
act out on our anger, it ends up
making us feel worse.
Right.
You know, we can only blame
other people for so long before
we really do have to take a look
at ourselves.
And I'll reach for eggplant palm
or just any cheese will do.
SPEAKER_01: Um alcohol, everyone
so many people need a drink when
they're angry or they've been
angered throughout the day.
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
Yep.
A drink or two, drugs, weed, any
of it.
You know, and that's if we start
to look at all the different
maladaptive ways we we try to
cope with anger.
And remember, we're we're
actually coping with we're
trying to quell and stamp down
the urge to do something hurtful
with it.
Right.
That's when I think when I think
of them like, oh, I want to I
want to feed this, you know,
make it go away.
I think people are actually
trying to stop themselves from
acting out.
The the problem is then they
they it ends up just being a
feedback, a small feedback loop
of shame and regret about doing
those things because they're
typically not healthy.
Right.
And then there's a hangover
effect.
There's a hangover effect, and
you end up feeling more angry
because you're hurt and you're
in pain, and then you kind of
start the loop again, and then
you're gonna have a short temper
and no resilience to deal with
more of the stuff during the
day, and you end up needing a
drink at night to like make it
go away long enough to go to
bed, or just to deal with other
people, right?
Right.
And then the feedback loop
starts again.
Right.
You wake up in the morning and
go, Why the hell did I have to
have, you know, three drinks
last night in order just to deal
with my night?
Right.
And then it starts again.
Right.
So anger, what happens is we get
stuck in a really small feedback
loop.
And that's dangerous.
Aaron Powell So how do we make
anger work for us?
Yeah, we learn what to do with
it, right?
Like that's what you're asking.
What do we what do we do with
anger?
How do we use it?
SPEAKER_01: And how do we
express it in a way that's you
know, quote unquote, healthy?
SPEAKER_00: The first step,
Kenyon, I think for everybody,
is is looking at weird.
Did we learn how to express
anger?
SPEAKER_01: Ooh, good one.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
And and most of it was not in a
neutral environment from a book
where we were just like, let me
read about anger today.
Most of us learn from from our
homes how were we dealt with
when we did something that was
not right in the moment.
Were we punished?
Were we mocked?
Were we shut down?
Were we made to feel bad?
I referenced guilt before, were
we made to feel guilty about it?
Honestly, some guilt is okay
because it helps us kind of
learn like some level of empathy
and and and emotion.
SPEAKER_01: Like but it could be
a moral compass.
SPEAKER_00: A little bit.
Just a tiny bit.
Like, but I think but I think
when it's when it's used, if
that's how you were dealt with
as a kid, then you carry that
with you.
Was there withdrawal when people
were angry around you?
Did they withdraw?
Did they leave?
Did they did they force you to
go away?
And then did people explode?
Was there physical violence?
You know, that's the one we
haven't talked about yet.
There's just like straight up
like this person's angry in my
life.
Are they physically violent?
And so when when we look at how
what do we do with it now, we
have to look back, okay, what
did I learn?
What was my kind of like map for
this?
And how did I see anger
expressed?
And then how was I allowed to
express my anger?
Was I allowed to express my
anger without having to fight,
without having to shut other
people out, without having to
make people feel guilty?
SPEAKER_02: Right.
SPEAKER_00: Right.
So you it's it's a two-way
street.
It's what was done to me and
around me, and then also what
how was I allowed to express
that?
And were certain people allowed
to be angry and then others were
not.
We get into this with like
family systems, and then we get
into this issue with gender and
how men are allowed to be angry
and women typically are not.
They're called certain things if
they're angry, if they express
anger, and that's it's so not
okay.
And with men, it's don't talk
about any of your feelings.
You just you can either be
checked out or angry.
And and neither of those are
healthy.
SPEAKER_01: Nope.
And we've talked about that in
other episodes.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: A couple of
questions that we can ask
ourselves when we're aware of
our anger.
One is, okay, is there a line
that just got crossed?
What boundary of mine was just
trespassed?
Another question could be, what
matters to me here?
It's another way of looking at
the same question.
What matters to me that isn't
being respected?
SPEAKER_00: Right.
SPEAKER_01: And if anger is, you
know, a data point that reads as
an alarm, if I feel like an
alarm's going off, what's the
fire?
What's the issue?
SPEAKER_00: Am I feeling
unheard?
Am I feeling it's all those
questions all those things we
talked about before.
Am I feeling unheard?
Am I am I unworthy?
Do I have shame?
You know, remember, shame is I
am a mistake, guilt is I made a
mistake.
I made a mistake, I can
apologize for that.
I am a mistake, I I don't know
if I can apologize for that.
That's shame, yeah.
That is shame.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: That's I'm
permanent.
Yeah, I'm not allowed to be,
essentially.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: I I if I make a
single mistake, then I'm
canceled.
You know, you mentioned Frankel,
Victor Frankel, Man Search for
Meaning, the idea that there's a
space between what happens and
how we respond.
Not so much what happens to us,
but how we respond to our
circumstances.
So okay, once we sort of like
ask ourselves those questions
and understand, okay, what
happened internally for me just
now, what's a proportionate
response?
What's a healthy response?
SPEAKER_00: So you have two
things going on asking yourself
and just reflecting on what
happened to me then, how is
anger portrayed around me, how
was I allowed to deal with
anger?
And then looking at how it comes
out now, if you feel angry, like
recognizing I'm angry right now
and not shying away from it.
And we get to really try to
verbalize that.
So you start to pick it apart
and say, Well, am I feeling
unheard?
So if I feel unheard, I can I
can actually tell somebody,
like, I feel like you're not
listening to what I'm saying, or
I feel like we're having a a
breakdown in in the
communication.
I feel like something I'm saying
here isn't being translated.
That's actually taking even more
of a neutral stance on it to
say, you and I are having a
conversation.
I'm angry because you're not
hearing me.
Like if I'm feeling angry, I'm
like, oh, well, I'm not being
heard, you know, Kenyan's not
getting it.
Let's look at what do I need to
do to make sure you can
understand me?
And what what can I ask of you
to make sure that you're getting
it?
Right.
Right?
Like, is there a different way
that I can explain it?
So you end up having a
conversation with somebody about
what do you need in order to
understand me?
How do I need to explain this
differently so you get it?
Really, the only person I have
control over is me.
So I really have to look at like
accepting that the way that I'm
verbalizing the thing that I
need, the other person might not
be able to understand that.
Now, anger comes in because I'm
not getting my need met.
So I'm immediately going to
think like, hey, to hell with
them, why don't they get it?
I keep saying the same thing
over and over and over again,
they're not getting it.
Right.
That's on me.
And it's on the other person.
But really, if I change that 15
times and and and kind of go
through and try like a bunch of
different ways to convey how I
feel and what I need, and it's
still not met, that's on the
other person then.
But really, what we need to do
is if we feel ourselves getting
angry, step back, assess it a
little bit, say, is there a
different way I can express what
I need right now so that it is
met?
A little different if somebody
cuts you off in traffic.
I rationalize in my mind then.
We talked about this before,
like people tailgating and
speeding and tailgating and
tailgating.
Maybe something awful is
happening in their life.
I just have to do this radical
acceptance thing.
As, as, as annoyed as I might be
at that moment and and angry, I
really need to just assume that
they either really have to use
the bathroom and they've wet
their pants in their car.
I usually think of awful things
that have happened that way.
I can really justify it.
Or that maybe their kid is sick
at school or fell, or maybe
they're going to they have to
like rush to go see somebody in
the hospital.
I have to make up these
scenarios in my mind.
Otherwise, the anger will become
toxic.
Right.
That's okay.
Yeah.
Other times I can ask for what I
need.
Sometimes I just have to do it
myself and just be like, hey,
you know what?
That person probably has
something else going on.
And I give it about a minute or
two of just kind of repeating
that and just breathing, and it
will dissipate.
Your anger will dissipate pretty
rapidly if you can hit it with
that physical, like, let me just
do some breathing and some some
diaphragmatic breathing, right?
The box breathing, and repeat
the thing over and over in my
mind.
That way you're not, you're not
adding more fuel to the fire.
For sure.
The problem with all this,
Kenyon, is that we add fuel to
the fire.
We we perseverate on things.
We repeat the things over and
over in our mind.
Right.
Somebody wronged me.
Somebody wronged me.
If I repeat that 35 times in my
mind as somebody's in front of
me, even angrier than I was at
the beginning.
That's exactly it.
Right.
We're gonna we're gonna hulk
out.
But the but if I start changing
the narrative as I'm going
through it and be like, God, I
hope they're okay.
I hope they're okay.
You suddenly start to create
some empathy for the other
person, even if they were a
total jerk, which is a hard
thing to do.
But that's kind of like, I don't
know, we're all human beings.
We're all kind of like trying to
figure it out, and none of us
are good at it.
Absolutely.
So we can have a little grace
and a little empathy for people.
We we can force ourselves to do
that a little bit more.
I think especially now.
For sure.
I mean in current current time.
SPEAKER_01: No.
Going back to Victor Frankel,
you know, that's what kept him
alive, arguably, in the
concentration camps was he would
he would be lined up by an SS
guard who would decide randomly
who's going to be executed that
morning.
And he had a practice where he
would sincerely wish that guard
a good day and you know, summon
compassion, empathy for that
guard, and the guard never
picked Victor Frankel.
SPEAKER_00: It sounds insane.
It sounds absolutely bananas to
try to summon summon that for
people who we feel are wronging
us or hurting us.
But this this comes back to how
anger is so damaging.
Anger is so damaging if it
disconnects us from our values.
Most people, you would ask,
wouldn't go, Oh yeah, I like
being angry.
I like thinking awful things
about people.
Even if they're in a in a
position where they have to do
something that's not healthy for
by other people's standards.
You know, I we just think of
war.
Just think of people like
soldiers.
Think of police, anybody who's
in a position where they have to
exert some kind of control or
power over somebody else because
it's part of the role that they
have to fill in life.
If it disconnects us with our
value system, then it's going to
be then it's going to be really
toxic.
And we need to look at that.
So if you if you're like, I'm a
good person, I want other people
to succeed as well.
I want, I want to feel empathy
for others and I want to to to
have some grace for others,
that's part of your value
system.
You have to kind of like put
your put your finger on the
scale and tip it a little
though, sometimes.
Right.
Which is fine.
Tip the scale.
Yeah.
It's totally okay.
SPEAKER_01: And another way to
deal with anger, and this is
very practical, body-based, is,
you know, move.
Move through it.
I can't tell you how many times
when I'm feeling overwhelming
anger and I'm tempted to act in
a way that does go against my
values, just getting outside and
walking, running on a treadmill,
exhausting myself will work the
anger out of my body.
It'll allow it to move through.
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
How many times have you told
people, just put your feet on
the floor?
Just just take a slow breath.
Breathe longer than you think
you have to.
Right.
Right.
Just go really slow.
Yeah.
That body piece is so important
because anger is so experienced
in our body.
Right.
Just like anxiety.
Like those two feelings I think
are really experienced
somatically.
Right.
Right.
We feel that ever in every fiber
at times.
Or as my daughter would say,
seltzer in the brain.
But but you you think about the
tension, the stomach, the it's
all that fight or flight kind of
stuff gets activated.
So recognize every little thing
in the body and then do the
counter to that.
If you're recognizing the
tension in your body, do
something to relieve the tension
in your body.
I know you go for a walk around
your backyard, you just kind of
like do this.
So yeah, those are really good
things to do when you're feeling
angry.
Pausing, always pausing.
Now, whether that's physically
or just mentally in that moment.
Just for any feeling.
And this is, I would ask
everybody listening, just pause.
The first move is never to
suppress the feeling.
It's never, I don't want to feel
this way anymore.
I can't feel this way, make it
go away.
It's space, what's going on,
what can I do?
Totally.
And and that's for everything
we're dealing with, with
anxiety, with fear, with with
all of these emotions that we
walk around with.
It's let me stop.
What's going on and what can I
do?
SPEAKER_01: Right.
Without exploding and without
disappearing.
Understanding that in this case,
anger is data.
It's telling us something about
ourselves.
It's like a message from the
deeper self.
SPEAKER_00: That's exactly it.
It's a message from the deeper
self.
So then you start you start
naming it clearly.
What's that message saying?
What's the message saying?
And then the the fun part is you
get to figure out how to express
that to the other human being
around you who may be six years
old or 60 years old or speaks a
different language or didn't
have the same experience you
had.
So that's and that's where it
gets messy and complicated and
all the relational stuff.
However, if you're coming from
that place of understanding your
own anger and where it's coming
from, what that message is, it
becomes much easier to say, hey,
I'm feeling kind of disrespected
right now.
I'm feeling like you didn't hear
me.
When I go off on my kids about
brushing their teeth and getting
in bed for three and a half
hours, like it the exercise is
every night, it goes so much
smoother if I actually just go
in and sit down and say, I'm
going to spend time here with
you while you go and do it.
Go do it.
And then say, Hey, you know, the
thing that happened here is I I
felt like I kept saying it and
you didn't hear me.
And then inevitably one of them
says, No, I heard you.
I just I wanted to.
And then they go and they tell
me all the things they wanted to
do instead.
I was like, oh, but that was
their priority.
It gives me so much
understanding of where the other
person is.
That gives you compassion.
It can if I'm like, if I'm if
I'm willing to be compassionate
about it, if I'm willing to say
they can exist also in this
space and I don't have to
control that that moment.
unknown: Right?
SPEAKER_00: We could remember we
use that that anger as control.
SPEAKER_01: Totally.
Thanks for listening to Lumen.
If today's conversation
resonated with you, we encourage
you to follow, review, and share
Lumen with anyone you think
would appreciate it.
SPEAKER_00: We'll be back soon
with another conversation
designed to bring a little more
light to the human condition.
I'm Christopher Mooney, LCSW.
And I'm Kenyon Phillips, LMSW.
Until next time, take care of
yourselves and each other.
Lumen is for educational and
informational purposes only and
is not a substitute for therapy,
diagnosis, or treatment.
If you're experiencing a mental
health crisis, please contact
local emergency services or a
trusted mental health
professional.