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As the CEO of Kit, Nathan Barry has a front row seat to what’s working in the most successful creator businesses.
On The Nathan Barry Show, he interviews top creators and dives into the inner workings of their businesses in his live coaching sessions.
You get unique insight into how creator businesses work and what you can do to increase results in your own business.
One of the things Nathan is passionate about is helping you create leverage.
Creator Flywheels let you create many copies of yourself so you don’t get bogged down with the little things in your business. Flywheels will help you reach a place where you can focus on revenue instead of busywork.
Tune in weekly for new episodes with ideas and tips for growing your business. You’ll hear discussions around building an audience, earning a living as a creator, and Nathan’s insights on scaling a software company to $100M.
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Nathan Barry: [00:00:00] I'm here with Frannie who's built an incredible agency business. You've reached substantial scale. She has a launch happening right now.
Frannie Wilson: You know, you feel like you just are so close to something. We've done a lot of course launches over the years and always felt like, in hindsight, we wish we would have done something different.
Nathan Barry: So the two biggest launch mistakes that I see creators make, one, They don't have tiered pricing. And two, I want to propose a small tweak to this. You want to have a couple of different types of scarcity in each launch to build momentum, limiting the quantity. And if I see a whole bunch of other people buying, it leans me from skeptical to enthusiastic.
Frannie Wilson: Can I make a to do list out of here?
Nathan Barry: Yeah, do it. We want people to have already made the decision to buy and then be like, okay, now I just have to get out my credit card.
Frannie Wilson: I love how you just came in, in the middle of my launch, shook shit up a little bit, and I'm going home tonight and re engineering, and I know it's going to be awesome.
Nathan Barry: That sounds great Frannie welcome to the show.
Frannie Wilson: Thanks, Nathan.
Nathan Barry: What is Ampersand as a business?
Frannie Wilson: Ampersand as a business now, right now, today in 2024 is a full service branding agency, and we serve [00:01:00] small businesses here in Boise. And we do work with clients outside of Boise for our agency work, but mostly.
Our local business keeps us busy enough with our team. We have a team of 10 full time. In house local creatives. And then Nicole and I also do a lot of brand coaching and consulting with, you know, people beyond Boise online.
Nathan Barry: So you've been running ampersand studios for how long now?
Frannie Wilson: We just had our 15 year anniversary.
Nathan Barry: That's that's exciting.
Frannie Wilson: Yes. And with the same business partner, 50, 50 business partner, the whole time.
Nathan Barry: It's basically a marriage. Yes.
Frannie Wilson: Yes.
Nathan Barry: Uh, there's a lot that we get into there, but first we want to talk about. Um, how you got to this point, you know, scaling a team to some pretty substantial numbers. The split of how you're running the agency, but then really get into the digital products and what, you know, everything that you're doing from there.
Frannie Wilson: Yeah.
Nathan Barry: So that's like a little bit of the teaser. Uh, and we'll, we'll get up on the whiteboard and whiteboard
Frannie Wilson: blackboard.
Nathan Barry: I don't know.
Frannie Wilson: Oh yeah. This is our [00:02:00] own,
Nathan Barry: our own concept. Um, but we'll map out like the exact, uh, revenue streams and where you're trying to go in the business. So in that something that, you know, anyone watching the show is going to expect is that we dive into your, your business and talk about like, You know, what are you like, where are you at now?
Uh, where are you trying to go? So we talked about things at a very high level, but if you're up for it, let's jump up to the blackboard and see, you say blackboard and it makes me think of chalk. This isn't chalk, but who knows? We'll jump up to, to the board and just map things out. So we have that. There's two aspects of, as I understand the agency and then really the digital creator, uh, products, right?
Frannie Wilson: We call it like agency operations and then digital ops, so As far as yeah agency and digital if that works.
Nathan Barry: Okay, so, um Revenue numbers. What do you want to talk about of? Like the last 12 months is that just to set the stage of? [00:03:00]
Frannie Wilson: Now, I mean year to date is more clean like numbers in my head. Okay, as far as like
Nathan Barry: so we're recording this July You 16th?
I don't know. We're like
Frannie Wilson: halfway through the year. Yeah. Yeah. And we're, we're like just over 425 right now.
Nathan Barry: On total? Total. Okay.
Frannie Wilson: Okay. So
Nathan Barry: 425, 000 total. How's that split between the agency and the digital?
Frannie Wilson: Um, all right. So digital has only done about 20, 000.
Nathan Barry: Okay.
Frannie Wilson: So far. We, that is all, completely all from digital products.
It's called the Voice and Visual Brand Guide Template, Canva Template, and it's just, it sells for 67, it's on a, um, you know, Facebook ads funnel, and that is solely that revenue. We haven't done a course launch, we're in the middle of a course launch now. And next week I can tell you how much that does.
Nathan Barry: Yeah, so you're about to ramp up the digital [00:04:00] side. Yes. Cart opens tomorrow?
Frannie Wilson: Yeah.
Nathan Barry: Okay, that's exciting. So, okay, and then the agency side, is there more revenue or can I just subtract out 4 or 5? We can even just
Frannie Wilson: say 4 and 25 just for the sake of even numbers if you want.
Nathan Barry: 400, 000 on this side, um, 20, 000 here.
So we're going to end up, end the year, uh, if things continue exactly, you know, at 850 or so.
Frannie Wilson: Yeah.
Nathan Barry: But you're thinking, you know, a course launch, you have a thousand people, um, on the wait list for it.
Frannie Wilson: I have a thousand people in the free challenge that we're running this week, right now.
Nathan Barry: Okay.
Frannie Wilson: And we're opening up a community.
Yep. Tomorrow. And projections are really, really vague and impossible to do. Because we haven't ever done, we've never launched a community before. We've done this same challenge, this is our fifth time doing this challenge. We, um, used to, we used to sell our signature course, the unbreakable brand. It's like a two day [00:05:00] workshop.
Um, what used to be like a six week course, you know, cohorts and everything. And so we used to do brand camp, which is our challenge and then sell that. And we've had some success with that over the years, but this time we are launching a community instead. So I don't have anything to compare it to.
Nathan Barry: What's the price point on the, on the community?
Frannie Wilson: We're doing, we're doing a special launch for brand camp members at 47 a month. Um, if they do the annual pay in full for 564, they also get the unbreakable brand workshop for included as a bonus. Okay. Pay in full bonus. And then we're offering 10 VIP, like a one on one coaching packages for 3, 500. Okay. So there's three tiers.
Ah, yes.
Nathan Barry: One thing. I love pricing tiers.
Frannie Wilson: Okay.
Nathan Barry: Good. Uh, this is.
Frannie Wilson: I was like, you're going to make me change my mind on this whole launch strategy and make me change it tomorrow.
Nathan Barry: So I wrote a bunch of essays about this, uh, gosh, back 2013 to 2015 timeframe when I did a lot of packaging and pricing testing. And I just always found that if I added multiple price [00:06:00] tiers, I would typically double and sometimes triple revenue.
Frannie Wilson: Okay. Good to know. Thank you. So
Nathan Barry: you have, let's just map these out, because I think this is important for everyone watching. So our tiers, our first one is 47 a month. Yep. Um, what's the next one?
Frannie Wilson: Uh, 564 annual, which it's the same thing as paying 47 12 times. Um, but it comes with the bonus, which is a 595 value.
So it's actually And insane value.
Nathan Barry: Uh, and then you have, and
Frannie Wilson: then 34 97 is the VIP coaching package that we have a cap of 10 people for that.
Nathan Barry: Okay. There's a bunch of things that I really like about this. Um, first you get to, by doing this, you get to price anchor the whole thing.
Frannie Wilson: Mm-Hmm.
Nathan Barry: this price anchoring.
You know, someone's like, oh, $47 a month. Is that worth it? Um. And then you're like, Oh, I, I get access to so much of this content from the kind of people who can charge 3, [00:07:00] 500 for VIP packages, uh, all of that. And so I love that approach. The other thing that you have going on here, I think is really interesting is a lot of people will discount the 47 a month.
If you pay annual, right? The most common thing in software is monthly times 10 if you pay annual. So it's two months free. But by adding the bonus, you didn't have to, you got all your cash flow up front and you didn't have to discount the price, uh, which I really like.
Frannie Wilson: Um, another thing just to throw in here is like when you're talking about the price anchoring are over here in the agency, like if somebody hires us for a one day workshop of brand consulting, it's 5, 000, um, with me or Nicole.
And so that. I'm going to be planning on kind of using to almost price anchor this VIP because this is like direct access to us. Um, you know, quarterly coaching calls. So it's not as much of like a deep dive, quick turnaround, like incubator [00:08:00] style, like that is, but just wanted to kind of throw that in there.
Nathan Barry: Yeah. Are you doing an open and closed launch?
Frannie Wilson: So for now we're like, we're going to open this up. We just don't have like the next step plan yet. We're kind of like gonna decide after this closes, um, what our next move is. So we're building the plane as we fly it a little bit, like there's a plan, but then there's also like a, the plan is to change the plan, but we want to open it up to, you know, a cold audience or two non brand camp members.
We are opening it up to this group first and closing it on Sunday. So it's only Wednesday through Sunday.
Nathan Barry: Okay.
Frannie Wilson: So short window.
Nathan Barry: Yeah. So, first reaction on the short, on the window, is that it might be too short.
Frannie Wilson: Okay.
Nathan Barry: Um, what do you notice with engagement in your audience over the weekends? Are they pretty engaged?
Or are they like, I work 9 to 5, this is a work thing?
Frannie Wilson: It's honestly about the same. Okay. I send out my newsletter, my audience is used to getting [00:09:00] my newsletter on Friday nights at like 8pm.
Nathan Barry: Okay.
Frannie Wilson: And I get quite a few responses over the weekend. More than I do during the week. Yeah, I my audience is entrepreneurs and you know, we don't we don't turn off.
Yeah, but That's a really good point that I didn't Fully think about that. Maybe we should let the cart stay open a little bit past the weekend.
Nathan Barry: So we're we're going Wednesday To Sunday.
Frannie Wilson: Mm hmm. I Also like totally bombard people with emails during the car open time I have eight. Okay,
Nathan Barry: so normally Like, there's
Frannie Wilson: like three on the last day and then like, kind of every other day there's like two on the first day.
You know, it's, but it's every day, pretty much.
Nathan Barry: And so, yeah, as we're going, and so you're hitting Thursday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, I didn't think how many days are in between. Uh, okay. So, so one a day in the middle. I think that's a good cadence.
Frannie Wilson: So I'm like, if I kept going, then I would feel like I would want to, you know, you know, Maybe dial [00:10:00] back in some way, that kind
Nathan Barry: of thing.
So the two biggest launch mistakes that I see creators make is one, they don't have tiered pricing, and two, they don't send enough emails. I think you have nailed both of these. Like, this is exactly where I'd want it. Great. Well, there's two things. I'm partially worried that your launch window is too short.
At the same time, Most of your sales are going to happen here and here anyway. And so, I don't know that you gain that much by stretching it out. Okay, so then the third mistake that I see people make is they don't tee up the offer well enough in this pre launch period. Our goal is to have as many people as possible have already made the decision to buy.
And not be able to buy it yet. So that when this email comes in, it's not like, here's what the offer is, here's why you should buy it and all of that. It's like, they're so, so excited. And then it's just like, and there's the link to buy.
Frannie Wilson: Yeah.
Nathan Barry: And you will actually do more than that. [00:11:00] Um, so what have you done to tee up the offer?
Right? Like, Today is Tuesday.
Frannie Wilson: Yeah,
Nathan Barry: do people know these price points? No, okay.
Frannie Wilson: They don't know the price points They don't know what it is yet. They know we are going to be making an announcement They know we're going to be inviting them into something. We have been positioning it like that from the beginning.
It's like yes Brandcamp is a Launch into something else. We're going to be inviting you into However, Brandcamp can stand on its own and it's super valuable by itself that you don't have to you know, there's there's a lot of And we've done it before. We have a lot of repeat people coming back to it that have been there before.
Cause they know that there's a lot of value in brand. That was actually one of the things we've wondered is, are we giving too much value in the free challenge to where people feel satiated or they feel like even overwhelmed with the amount of content that they got in a, in a week. Because people start, we do these Q and A's and people ask so many questions and we go into so much with them.
Nathan Barry: That's something that I feel like I've never personally been good at is finding that balance. Yeah. Because you want to feel [00:12:00] like, wow, or you want them to feel like, wow, I'm just being over delivered. There's so much great value. But finding that line between, like Frannie gives me so much incredible stuff and Frannie makes me feel overwhelmed because there's so much.
I think that's,
Frannie Wilson: yeah,
Nathan Barry: that's personally hard, and I don't know how to do that. I know.
Frannie Wilson: Well, I, I'm, I'm really excited about the community because we've never had something like this to offer our audience, and I think this is actually really what they need is, Um, ongoing support or like that accountability and those check ins, even our people who do this experience with us, at the end of that, they're like, Oh my gosh, you gave me this like amazing set of tools.
And now I know how to talk about my business and I know what my brand messaging is, but like now what? And then they're even kind of paralyzed in taking action part. So we're like, okay, even those people who were giving them like this literal like handbook, okay. Still feel like they don't really know what the next step is.
They need ongoing [00:13:00] like encouragement. So, so I'm excited about this because I think it'll feel more like we're not just going to dump all this information on them and then leave them alone, which is kind of what the course maybe did as well. So I don't know, I guess I'm hopeful that this is going to feel more like a partnership.
Nathan Barry: I think it'd be good. So I want to propose a small tweak to this. Okay. What time did you plan to send this first email?
Frannie Wilson: So the live training is at one o'clock, Mountain Standard time. And I will be going through slides and doing a little, you know, pitch for the community and then going into the training.
Um, so I'm doing that at the beginning of the call on Wednesday and then going into the training for the day, which is a brand audit exercise. And then I was going to chunk out that part of the video. And upload it to the sales page and then send out an email after I have that done. So I'm going to take that, just [00:14:00] that part of the recording out, put it on the sales page or link it in YouTube or something or both.
And then, um, send out the email, like the welcome email, introducing the thing, like Wednesday at like probably three o'clock.
Nathan Barry: Okay. So the thing that I want to do is I want to separate the moment where I learn what the offer is. And decide whether or not to buy it from the moment where I have the ability to buy it.
Because if you think about,
Frannie Wilson: Oh, I see what you're saying. Okay.
Nathan Barry: So let's say. Like we're opening
Frannie Wilson: the doors for it tomorrow. Like we're telling you about it now, but you can't buy it yet. This is exactly
Nathan Barry: what to, what to buy, what questions you have, are you in, all of that. Hit reply and say I'm in any of those things.
And then it's like, okay, I can actually buy it. Because if you think about. Do what is this? Do I want to buy it? Let me actually get out my credit card and now let me complete the transaction are actually four separate steps. And so if we lump them together, there's more friction that happens in that. [00:15:00] So if I'm like, I think I want to buy this, let me click through the checkout process.
Oh, you know what? My credit card is actually in my wallet, which I left in the car. Oh, I'll do it later. And so you can avoid some of that. Like I might read the email on my phone. I'm not going to buy it on my phone, but I might read it on my phone, get really excited while I'm out doing some of my family or whatever else.
And then I'm like, okay, Wednesday night at 7 PM, I'm going to be there to buy it.
Frannie Wilson: Okay.
Nathan Barry: Um, and the thing that throws a wrench in this is the live training because you should sell on the live training.
Frannie Wilson: Right.
Nathan Barry: Um, and so maybe what I would. What I'm leaning towards, and this is a tight timeline. What I'm leaning towards is sending a full explanation email Wednesday morning.
And basically saying, today, let me tell you, you know we've been working towards something. Let me tell you, here's what it is. And then here's the details, here's the price points, here's some of the value. And you can work backwards. Hey, as [00:16:00] you know. But don't send
Frannie Wilson: them to the sales page yet?
Nathan Barry: But don't send them to the sales page yet.
Frannie Wilson: Okay.
Nathan Barry: Um, And, and you can work backwards in this email, right? You can say, Hey, you know, we normally charge 5, 000 a day. We charge 15, 000. If you want to do a two day offsite with us and our team where we do all this, right?
Frannie Wilson: Yeah.
Nathan Barry: Um, one thing as we did this, we realized people need the ongoing support. And so, and there's these people that can't, uh, you know, afford the price point or, uh, make that investment right now.
And so you can like work backwards into these prices, which are really, really affordable.
Frannie Wilson: Okay.
Nathan Barry: And so then you can get that engagement and interest.
Frannie Wilson: Like do you think I should send that email out today or tomorrow morning?
Nathan Barry: Have you sent any emails today?
Frannie Wilson: I haven't. I've only sent like, like, don't forget to come to the training today.
Here's the workbook. Okay. Like a quick email. I didn't really have like any value. You
Nathan Barry: could either do today or tomorrow morning. If we weren't on the exact timeline that we're on, normally I would do. We're going to
Frannie Wilson: have to, you're going to have to have me back to do like a debrief on how this [00:17:00] went, like next week, and then you can add it to the.
Nathan Barry: Uh, and so normally I would send it the day before and then first thing in the morning, if that's what my audience was used to from me, I would send the like, okay, now you can buy it.
Frannie Wilson: Okay.
Nathan Barry: The other thing that I
Frannie Wilson: open it up to buy it on the live call
Nathan Barry: or on the live call, that'd be, I mean, the live call is even better because, um, you know, then you're getting people to show up and, and engage and, and all of that.
Frannie Wilson: So we were considering toying with doing. Like some giveaways on the live call.
Nathan Barry: Okay. Like, well,
Frannie Wilson: we're doing giveaways throughout the challenge for people who, you know, you earn points and badges and stuff for participating and doing the homework and referring friends and all of these different ways. And so on Friday we'll be doing some giveaways for some of our digital products, like some business books, just some fun, whatever.
But I was kind of wondering about giving away like maybe an annual membership or something. In the call [00:18:00] on Wednesday and like letting people know that we're going to do that so that they come live. But then I'm like, I don't know. I don't want to like give it away to somebody that wouldn't
Nathan Barry: want it.
Frannie Wilson: Or like,
Nathan Barry: yeah, you got to think about it.
Uh, I want to
Frannie Wilson: devalue it, I guess.
Nathan Barry: I mean, if we get into the types of scarcity, right, uh, you, you want to have a couple of different types of scarcity in each launch to build momentum. And so. Just running through the different types, um, first is a launch close, right, like you cannot buy this after Sunday at midnight, right?
Another form of scarcity is limiting the quantity. You have that, but only on the VIP package, uh, and then the, I was gonna say the last type of scarcity, there's probably more, but the last one I can think of right now is some sort of, um, like first mover advantage, you know, fast action bonus, that sort of thing.
So the first. Everyone who buys this gets the whole [00:19:00] thing plus the bonus, but the first 25 people who buy it get this additional
Frannie Wilson: thing,
Nathan Barry: right? And so you start to build this momentum in the launch and then it lets you, in this email, be like, this is incredible, 50 of you already signed up, you know, or you get to
Frannie Wilson: quote,
Nathan Barry: you have the social proof in the momentum.
Um, and then if you're doing it live and you open the cart, like then there's a reason for someone to say, Oh, I bought, I was the first to buy. I wouldn't do a bonus for the first to buy because that person's going to buy anyway. You figure out basically what number do you think you're likely to get here?
And then how, like you try to bracket right in. In there to get those first buying things because that because basically if we're watching a live training The inputs that I have are my own feelings and experience as a viewer Whatever. I'm reading from you as to your energy excitement all of that in the chat and so I might be [00:20:00] Moderately interested.
I'm like, oh, this sounds good, but I have I don't know who knows. And if I see a whole bunch of other people buying and commenting
Frannie Wilson: that
Nathan Barry: they bought, then I'm like, you know, it leans me, you know, from skeptical to enthusiastic.
Frannie Wilson: Totally.
Nathan Barry: And so if you think about what's a bonus that you could offer, my gut feeling is the first 25 people to purchase somewhere in there.
You just have to make sure it's a low enough number that it will sell, like those will go during the live training.
Frannie Wilson: Right.
Nathan Barry: Or you do two tiers of it, right?
Frannie Wilson: I'm trying to think about what I would use, do for that.
Nathan Barry: Often what people do is, if there's an additional template that comes that you use somewhere else in your business, and you throw that in, and you're like, look, normally we don't include this, but, um, or,
Frannie Wilson: The problem is, like, putting all the tools that,
Nathan Barry: You already put them all in.
Well, then
Frannie Wilson: most of them come with this, like the, you know, like the brand guide template and stuff like that, that, The, those tools are included in this course [00:21:00] that you get with this. And so it's like a, a double. So I'm like, I'm great. And I have to like create something. Yeah. And on
Nathan Barry: our timeline, it's probably not worth doing now that I think about it.
Cause I think,
Frannie Wilson: you know me, I'm like,
Nathan Barry: now you're going
Frannie Wilson: to try to put
Nathan Barry: it
Frannie Wilson: in. I'm like, um, the first 25 people get a question called Nathan Barry.
Nathan Barry: They get to
Frannie Wilson: convert kids.
Nathan Barry: But there, so there might be something, right, of, um, it might not even be something that, uh, you would typically do like, or even that everybody could use the first 25 people get an invite to our next happy hour at our studio in Boise, right?
Like a bunch of people might be like, well, I'm not going to come from Virginia all the way, you know, but there's still, it kind of adds to that and that feeling of community. Um, maybe they, there's some tear down they get. Could even be the first 25 people get a special badge in the community.
Frannie Wilson: Yeah.
Nathan Barry: And that might work.
Frannie Wilson: Just like, okay.
Nathan Barry: Right, a founding member badge, it [00:22:00] might be.
Frannie Wilson: Can I make a to do list out of here?
Nathan Barry: Yeah, do it.
Frannie Wilson: Okay, new plan.
Nathan Barry: Yep.
Frannie Wilson: Is, I'm sending out an email Tuesday night.
Nathan Barry: Yep.
Frannie Wilson: To, like, Tease.
Nathan Barry: We want to tease all of these packages. We want to give people all the information they need to buy, but not the option to buy.
We want to split those two moments.
Frannie Wilson: Okay. And then on Wednesday, um, a special offer or a bonus for first 25 or whatever we decide. Okay.
Nathan Barry: I, I think at the beginning of the launch, those, those are two, um, great changes that we can make.
Frannie Wilson: Okay.
Nathan Barry: Um, the other thing I would say that people often do as a bonus is, it's like a, you know, access to a workshop or something like that.
Um, I think you have plenty of, you know, you have plenty of [00:23:00] bonuses, you have plenty of workshop related material. So that doesn't stand out, but just for everyone watching, those are kind of the, the typical things.
Frannie Wilson: Yeah.
Nathan Barry: Uh, that you would see.
Frannie Wilson: I have seen people do this before and I kind of wondered about it.
Mm-Hmm. like the, we're gonna be opening the doors to this tomorrow thing. Yep. Here's all the details. And I haven't ever really like, thought about it, ,
Nathan Barry: why, why,
Frannie Wilson: why? Like, what's the psychology behind that? So that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. 'cause basically that is a lot of decisions to go through.
Nathan Barry: We want people to have already made the decision to buy or like be 90% there and then be like, okay, now I just have to get out my credit card.
Cause the number of things, like the number of interruptions or whatever else that could happen between learning about it, making the decision to buy all of this and trying to get that in a single session is hard.
Frannie Wilson: Right. And then you're also kind of like, it feels good too, because then when I do the live thing, I can say authentically, like you knew this was coming.
Not, I'm not going to say it like that. You knew this was coming, but like they [00:24:00] have had a chance to kind of think about it or they don't have those objections of like, I need to talk to my spouse first or something. Right. And they don't want to miss out on the, being the first 25 people to get that thing because they might actually just need to think about it for a second.
Yeah. And so it's kind of, it feels, it feels better. It feels nice.
Nathan Barry: Yeah, I think that's good. Okay. So now as we move further through the timeline, there's different segmenting that you can do. And as you think about who's most engaged or not, and people are going to have, who are. don't buy are going to not buy for many different reasons.
One thing that I'd like to do right in here is, well, you can do it either way. You could do it, you know, Saturday or Monday.
Frannie Wilson: And
Nathan Barry: you're basically asking, Hey, um, I noticed that you haven't bought yet. The baby bought yet, or you didn't buy. Why is that? Hit reply and let me know. Uh, if you, these numbers, a thousand people working our way through, say you might end up getting [00:25:00] 40 to 50 replies to that email.
That's that's manageable if you had like 10, 000 people in the challenge what I would do is like
Frannie Wilson: survey or something I
Nathan Barry: would yeah, click a link You know and let me know if it's pricing related. I didn't understand the value that sort of thing and then you can segment from there of What you want to go to Like basically the different offers
Frannie Wilson: right
Nathan Barry: because if it's price Then maybe there's something else that you can offer.
I think you have the right range here, but one thing that I did in, uh, one of my books about software design was I had three packages, just the book at 39. I had the book plus some of the resources at 99. And then for two 49, I had the book at interviews with experts and like all the resources that I use as a software designer.
Frannie Wilson: Okay.
Nathan Barry: And so what I would do is after I close the, the [00:26:00] launch, I would never do a full closed launch just because of the style of product. In your case, I think it makes sense. But it was a discount that was ending. I would, afterwards, I would ask why they didn't buy. And then I would send a series of emails that spoke to that.
And I might offer a different packaging where if someone's saying, you know, price with upfront costs is the concern. Then the next emails that I say, I might have a, like a final offer Monday or Tuesday. That's like, Hey, for 47 a month, like we're actually offering a scholarship that is this and provides this other thing.
Um, you don't want to do it in a way that devalues the rest of the launch or makes,
Frannie Wilson: or it feels like you're backpedaling or something. Yeah. Yeah.
Nathan Barry: But it's basically like, Hey, I want to help every, Business owner, you know have these outcomes. And so how can I
Frannie Wilson: it's a way to show that you're listening
Nathan Barry: that's a great way to put it
Frannie Wilson: like you're listening and [00:27:00] Iterating.
Mm
Nathan Barry: hmm
Frannie Wilson: in the moment.
Nathan Barry: And then the other thing is this email like let's say if we branch from here Right. These are only going to Um, well, let's say the concerns are timing, price, and there's probably more, but for our example, um, value would be in there somewhere. But now, like this email, these emails went to a thousand people.
This email went to two hundred, maybe, right? Instagram posts, it's got to go to everybody.
Frannie Wilson: Yeah.
Nathan Barry: But here, you can talk to them very specifically.
Frannie Wilson: Email's the best.
Nathan Barry: I mean, I'm a little bit of a fan. So then you can do that downsell. And then you also have that information for the future. Because you're going to, like, you're going to learn from all of this and then do it again in, say, six months, maybe even three months.
And so now, like, these sequences are mapped out and you'll have people targeted. Like, maybe someone comes back. They [00:28:00] didn't buy because of price, but they love the challenge. And so they're going to come back and do it again. And you can actually know. In these emails, a price is an objection before, and you could change the email automatically based on that.
Frannie Wilson: Oh, that's like, yeah, that's, that's a definitely a deeper level of segmenting. That's like a 300
Nathan Barry: level, um, segmenting.
Frannie Wilson: That's, that's awesome. Yeah. Okay. I'll consider a downsell. I, I'm, I was just thinking like, I don't want to downsell, you know, offer a lower price or anything, but what I could do, and I've seen some people do is like, you know, you, maybe you can get just a ticket to come to the coaching calls.
Or like one aspect of the community. That's not the full immersion, like
Nathan Barry: one, one version that you could do is like, okay, maybe you missed some of the live trainings. And so maybe for 47 one time, not monthly, right. You can get the live trainings plus this other template that we sell or something like that.
Right. You've got them interested in gauge. They follow it all the way through. Um,
Frannie Wilson: [00:29:00] and
Nathan Barry: it's basically looking for the people who. We're engaged, clicked, opened all of that and didn't buy. Cause there will be a segment of the thousand that never really engaged and you can mostly just let them, uh, stay warm with your regular marketing.
But it basically, if you're engaged and didn't buy, I really want to know why. And I want to do something about that.
Frannie Wilson: Yeah.
Nathan Barry: Um, and I love both the, the automated segmentation and the organic, like. Um, qualitative, you know, hit reply. Yeah. Yeah. It's going to be a good launch. It's going to be
Frannie Wilson: so good. I'm excited
Nathan Barry: for this.
Me too. Uh, you have this pretty dialed in, like. There's usually,
Frannie Wilson: there's
Nathan Barry: usually things where I look at a launch and I'm like, Oh God, there's not no time. A lot of it's
Frannie Wilson: been happening at, you know, late at night this past week. Like it's been in the works and being planned for a long time, but coming to craft and commerce made us decide [00:30:00] to switch to mighty.
So that was just a month ago. And it's a lot of setup and a lot of work to get that going. We've been working with their team. They've been amazing. However, it's been a major, like scramble to change our whole plan from where we were going to host all of this and. Getting all of that set up. So yeah, we're in like that launch energy kind of, you're sure I'll create a new, you know, set of slides to do for tomorrow.
And, you know,
Nathan Barry: I would ask the mighty team what they've seen for, uh, you know, that initial bonus, what, what have they seen work well to make the first. X number of community members feel really special.
Frannie Wilson: Okay.
Nathan Barry: Because they might say, actually, like, badges are incredible. Or they might be like, yeah, it actually then forever makes the rest of the community feel You know, like they're not in the inner circle, you know, like it creates clicks.
Frannie Wilson: Yeah. They have a lot of insights on that.
Nathan Barry: And so they'll, they'll know for sure.
Frannie Wilson: Okay.
Nathan Barry: And then they'll give you more of a long term strategy on like, Oh, here's how we actually use achievements in the community over multiple years. Okay. So [00:31:00] we've covered a lot of things here. You have a very tight timeline to implement some of this feedback.
The good news is you have a lot of this going really, really well. You know what?
Frannie Wilson: That's when I work best. It's I'm serious. Like I'm excited about it, even though I'm like, Oh, like I have to go back and do so much tonight. But, um, That's when I get the most creative. That's when I get the most, I'm the most productive.
I always joke, I say, I'm not a procrastinator. I'm deadline driven. So let's go,
Nathan Barry: like people in the launch will be, let's, let's sit down and just think about the kind of the details of what we talked about, because there's both, there's the launch that we're, we're going through live, but then there's also, you know, just the takeaways for someone watching who they're, you know, planning a launch, you know, a month out, six months out, something like that.
Frannie Wilson: Mm hmm.
Nathan Barry: So let's start first with your takeaways and action items, and then we'll go make them a little more broad, uh, for launches in general.
Frannie Wilson: My takeaways and action items are that. I mean, I'm feeling really good that you kind of validated the way that we've structured the packages. That was really nice to hear from [00:32:00] you.
And you know, you feel like you just are so close to something and you're so in it, you think you're doing it the right way. And we've done a lot of course launches over the years and always felt like in hindsight, we wish we would have done something different. So it's really nice. Even though we're already in the middle of this and it would have, Probably been smarter to workshop this with, you know, outside advice sooner.
Um, I'm so grateful for your insights and it makes me feel really good going into the pitch tomorrow, feeling like we have it set up in a good way. And you also poked some holes in some things for me and gave me some new ideas to chew on and implement literally today. So
Nathan Barry: I love it.
Frannie Wilson: Like teasing the, the car open and letting people know the actual pricing and stuff ahead of time so that they have time to think about it.
I never would have come to that. So
Nathan Barry: I think it makes a big difference. So the things that I love about this launch, like first, it's obvious that you've run a business for a long time and you've reached like substantial scale because there's a lot of things, [00:33:00] you know, often when I'm criticizing a launch, we didn't even get into the design or all of that, but like, I've looked at all of your work, you know, followed you for a long time.
So I know that that's. That's, that's top notch. So the, thank you. That helped us to like, like really dive into the mechanics of the launch. And then, you know, looking through it, the price tiers is such a big thing. And so to see that you already have that in a good way, you know, being able to offer bonuses rather than discounts, I think as we talked, you know, to be in a conversation about brand.
Are you, are you a discount brand or are you a value add additional, you know, bonus type of brand? And like, that's very clear that that's a brand ideal and aesthetic that has come all the way through into a pricing decision. I want to dive in on the branding side of things. This is something that a lot of creators find themselves in the business of branding unintentionally, right?
Because you're saying, Oh, I'm just going to teach this thing. Let me put out content on the internet. And before you know it, you've built a brand, whether [00:34:00] intentionally or not, what are some things that, you know, you would say to creators who have found themselves, maybe, maybe they've got 10, 000 subscribers on a newsletter or a social channel starting to take off, but they haven't yet been intentional about brand, even though they've started to build a fans.
Frannie Wilson: My biggest thing is we just have to remember, think about how we, how you interact with the creators that you see on a daily basis, how many of them there are and which ones could I say by name who they are and why I remember them. Not that many, like honestly, uh, except for the ones I've been following for a really long time.
But if somebody pops up in my, say my Instagram feed or on YouTube or something once or twice, I start to kind of make those connections. Their face looks familiar. Their message kind of sounds familiar. It takes a lot of times for that to be repeated and for us to see them and hear their voice and hear the same, almost the same exact message coming out of their mouth over and over again for me to go.
Oh, and associate that name to the person, especially with so many personal brands out there where we're just using our names,
Nathan Barry: right? [00:35:00]
Frannie Wilson: Names are hard for me to remember anyway. Like
Nathan Barry: when someone's standing in front of you, you're like, I can't remember the name. And then it's like, wait, you're supposed to remember this, you know, name and face that I saw twice on Instagram.
Frannie Wilson: And sometimes they're really obscure, like hard to spell, like names that don't sound like they look. And like, they're not like, you wouldn't name your business that. right? Because it's not easy for people. And so, especially as a coach or a personal brand or creator, branding is important to think about in what am I doing to make those connections happen as quickly as possible and to make a great first impression and have people know me for what I want to be known for.
Right. And I think so many people go out and do that. Wanted to share about everything, which is, which is a way to do it. And I'm not saying you shouldn't, you know, touch on different points of your life, but we have to be intentional and deliberate about at least that one thing that we want to be known for and talk about it, like feel like a broken record.
Nathan Barry: What's an example for you? What, when you think about your personal brand and then as it, as it extends to ampersand that, you know, you want [00:36:00] to be known for or how, you know, how you're going to show up.
Frannie Wilson: So I just love. I love branding. I love online marketing. I love psychology of marketing and buyer behavior and like all of that stuff so much that I'm always kind of thinking about it or inspired by something in my daily life.
So I tend to, with my personal brand, which hasn't really been like a growth like focus for me necessarily, but whenever I create content for myself, I went through a phase where I was like, okay, what do I want to be putting out there? What do I want to be talking about? The other day I had a thought that popped up while I was in a boxing class.
Workout and I'm and I have those all the time and they're like, oh my gosh Disrupting the pattern was basically the lesson of the defensive movements. We were learning in the boxing class. That's even though I know the Combination that's gonna be thrown at me the one two, three two or whatever If we just kind of hold back and it's one two, three, two, one, two, three, two, one, two, three, two And then it's one two Three, two, just that [00:37:00] little minuscule thing can throw off your opponent.
So I'm talking about something I do in my life, but I'm relating it back to the value I provide.
Nathan Barry: Well, and then even in that story, there's a bunch of things that I love about it. You're telling a personal story. It ties into marketing and branding and things you love to talk about, but it tells me a lot about who you are as a person.
Like all of a sudden we're like, Oh, Frannie is the kind of person that's into boxing for a workout, right? Like that's pretty bad ass, you know? And so that. Adds to the brand on, on a few different levels. So totally
Frannie Wilson: branding and, um, relating and connecting with people is really about like, we connect with people that we have something in common with.
So you can find that with every, with anyone, you can find some, some commonality or whether it's a personal value that you have, or, you know, your family lifestyle or something like, I love your content about. Your your journey as a pilot. Yeah, like I can't relate to that at all But I really admire it a lot and I think it's so interesting and I'm so happy that you're sharing about that and Every time you post about [00:38:00] it.
It's like it's this other little neural connection for me to Nathan Berry of You know, not just that you're the creator of convert not that that's a just yeah It's kind of a big deal
Nathan Barry: one thing that I struggle with is the balance between Consistency and maybe it's like casual authenticity.
Frannie Wilson: Yeah.
Nathan Barry: I've been watching these creators on Instagram in particular who followed the exact same format for every video.
There's four that I'm thinking of. One is, uh, BMO Williams, who, uh, he works lots of time at Nike and Adidas working in, in sneakers. And so he talks about like brand collaborations and he wears the exact same beanie. He, the mic is in the exact same place for every.
Frannie Wilson: Does he just do the little motivational things where he's talking straight at the camera?
Nathan Barry: Yeah, so he's talking straight at the camera and he's explaining what's going on in the, like in the industry. And then there's another, he's a trial attorney in, uh, Texas, I believe. Uh, what is his name? His name is Jefferson. He's got like 5 million [00:39:00] followers on Instagram. And so he is talking about like, here's conversational tips.
Here's how to argue. Here's all of that. But he does every single one in his car, like same seatbelt on and everything. And even the format is similar. Here's what I'm going to teach you. Here's three examples. Here's the conclusion. And all of those people, uh, I think Bima has a hundred thousand followers.
Jefferson is 5 million and on different timelines, but just the consistency. And I think part of what it is is when you come in, if you're scrolling through the feed, you're like, Oh, that was good. And I watched that to the end. And the next time it's similar enough to you're like, Oh, that's the same creator.
And then the third time you come across, you're just like, Oh, Bima always delivers. And so now I'm going to come across it. And so I struggle with like that super formulaic one, which I think from the outside, it works really, really well. And I think about like this show, for example, of, you know, Even the things that I'm trying to go for, right.
If standardizing shooting the same studio, I want it where people recognize it in our clips and [00:40:00] thumbnails in just a second. We'll, we'll get up and map out, you know, the business and get into numbers, but I want it recognizable in that way. And people know what to expect, right? They're going to get, um, somewhat of a casual conversation and then they're going to get.
I'd like dive into concrete business advice and numbers.
Frannie Wilson: And I have plenty of time to figure that out. Oh
Nathan Barry: yeah. I mean, solid
Frannie Wilson: four days to put something together.
Nathan Barry: I think,
Frannie Wilson: and the first, the, the rope drop, I'm calling it the rope drop, like, you know, at Disneyland, like the first,
Nathan Barry: exactly. Uh, the rope drop is good.
So there's various ways. Um, even as we think about the terminology that we use internally versus externally, right. In a much more salesy. Like direct marketing world. They'd call it a fast action bonus. Sure. A rope drop is really good branding and positioning on the exact same idea
Frannie Wilson: Yeah, cuz it makes you feel like you're excited to just run in.
Nathan Barry: Mm hmm
Frannie Wilson: and be the first one there
Nathan Barry: And now you can even start to like fast action bonus You're [00:41:00] like, what do I put on a slide rope drop? You know exactly what visuals you put on the slide and what feeling you're trying to create
Frannie Wilson: It's funny because for me, the visual is actually, have you ever done the, you ski, right?
Nathan Barry: Have you done
Frannie Wilson: the rope drop at bogus?
Nathan Barry: No, I haven't.
Frannie Wilson: Yeah. Like when they open up the backside and back to chair three on that side of the mountain, they do it right in the morning. The ski patrol literally like takes off the rope and there's like a hundred people like on a powder day. And I'm like, that's, that's like my Disneyland, you know?
So I love that. Okay.
Nathan Barry: That's good. I
Frannie Wilson: have some very actionable things to do here.
Nathan Barry: All right. So we'll dive in a couple of things. I think. As everyone's watching, if I was watching, the thing that I would want to know is like, so how'd it go? You know, like, uh, by the time this episode drops, the launch will have concluded.
Frannie Wilson: Well, Nathan, in the spirit of manifestation, it went so well, we sold like four times higher than our goal and, uh, it was seamless and so easy and everybody just. So
Nathan Barry: if you want the breakdown on that, [00:42:00] uh, I think what would be fun to do is I'll dedicate an issue of my newsletter to like the lessons learned, the episode when it comes out, and then like how exactly the launch went.
If you're, if you're up for sharing all the real numbers,
Frannie Wilson: totally. Let's do it. It sounds good.
Nathan Barry: So
Frannie Wilson: it'll hold me accountable to do a thorough debrief.
Nathan Barry: I like it. So if you go to nathanberry. com, go ahead and subscribe there. The newsletter comes out every Tuesday morning and we'll do. The detailed debrief and all the behind the scenes.
Frannie Wilson: Oh my gosh. Okay. All right,
Nathan Barry: for anything so much for coming on.
Frannie Wilson: Thank you for having me and thank you for your services. Anytime.
Nathan Barry: If you enjoyed this episode, go to the YouTube channel, just search billion dollar creator and go ahead and subscribe. Make sure to like the video and drop a comment. I'd love to hear what some of your favorite parts of the video were and also who else we should have on the [00:43:00] show.