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AI First with Adam and Andy: Inspiring Business Leaders to Make AI First Moves is a dynamic podcast focused on the unprecedented potential of AI and how business leaders can harness it to transform their companies. Each episode dives into real-world examples of AI deployments, the "holy shit" moments where AI changes everything, and the steps leaders need to take to stay ahead. It’s bold, actionable, and emphasizes the exponential acceleration of AI, inspiring CEOs to make AI-first moves before they fall behind.
Andy Sack (00:00)
I mean I sound like a broken record. your own use and your team's own use and execution of AI because in Forum three's consulting practice, we predominantly interact predominantly with consumer oriented businesses. And I'm yet to meet a CEO that has used the
AI enough to understand it, to truly aim it, and to truly be creative and do the thing that we just talked about in this podcast. And so it's really about your own team's use and execution of AI. And you can't, as we say at the end of this, you can't overinvest in AI education. And I don't mean that to be self-promotional. I truly believe it.
Andy Sack (00:41)
This is AI First with Adam and Andy, the show about what happens when AI stops being a tool and starts becoming part of your workforce. I'm Andy Sack, alongside my co-host Adam Brotman,. Each episode we talk with business leaders on the front lines of the agentic era. What's working, what's not, and how AI is changing the way companies operate. No hype, just real world lessons and ideas you can put to work.
AI is making it cheaper and faster to build almost everything: products, software, creative, customer experiences. It sounds like an advantage until you realize your competitors have access to same capability. Today, we want to get practical, but what actually becomes more defensible when copying gets cheap, where leaders should keep investing in what may not be a mode anymore. Rose is joining us again.
To help us get into it. Rose.
Rose Kelly (01:35)
Hey guys. Excited to be back with you guys again.
and so like
Andy Sack (01:39)
We're excited to
have you again.
Rose Kelly (01:42)
so like usual, I'm just gonna, you know, ask you guys some questions, hear what you think. Excited to see what both of you guys think, because you know, sometimes you agree, sometimes you don't. and I think this is an interesting topic because we hear so much about
companies being able to create their own SaaS and they're being able to reproduce an app in, minutes. And so what does that mean for companies who have relied on that as their differentiation? So Adam, I'm gonna put it to you first. if products and features in creative are getting easier to build and also to copy, what actually becomes more defensible?
Adam Brotman (02:12)
what clearly becomes defensible in that world is your brand, your brand relationship and brand experience with the customer and the data that comes with that, meaning the count history, transaction history, because
someone can come along and copy your website, copy your app, copy your features, even copy your content. outside of like what's not allowed, but they can't copy your
Brand experience. They can't copy your brand trust, and they certainly don't have the history of all the data that comes with that. So I'm not even talking about like the classic proprietary data, which is something that maybe Andy will talk about. I'm just talking about like if I have a long history with the customer and they trust me and they love me, then I've got data that comes along with that, and I can use that data to personalize my experience and personalize my marketing. So someone else can copy all my features and copy all my programs, copy all my software, but they can't copy that.
that.
And so I think that that becomes a thing that becomes more of a moat. and then at the same time, they can turn around and, you know, what's the expression, you know, turn about as fair play or whatever. Like
if it's that easy to copy, then you as a brand need to realize the same works for you. You should be taking advantage of how easy it is to build features and build capabilities that highlight and accentuate those things that are brand differentiators for you. So I think it becomes less about like, am I great at making software? Do I have the budget to make software? Do I have the budget to make content? Those things are becoming less of the defense.
And you're gonna have to lean into these other things. I don't know, Andy, if you agree or what your thoughts are.
Andy Sack (03:45)
I do agree. you and I spend a lot of time over the last two to three years talking about this. the standard answer to the question that you and I have come up with, I think, are community, distribution data. Like those three things are sort of standard and recognized. Like if you have proprietary data that allows you to do things that
are not easily replicable. I think the thing that doesn't get talked about enough, which I'm coming around to, and this really comes from you know, we talk about this in our book, Agents Inc., we talk about the swarm, so it's not just your current competitors, but also the
Swarm of one two person solopreneurs that could conceivably copy and compete. I think the thing that doesn't get talked about enough as a competitive moat is where to aim the AI and creativity. I think AI still lags in having the idea that is often behind a campaign.
about where to aim the AI. I think the creativity and the aim are two areas that I would say are but in addition to community distribution and data.
Rose Kelly (04:54)
to dig in more about the community piece. I guess there's a lot we could unpack, I think, in what both of you guys said. And Adam, you talked about the customer relationships. I mean, I think on the flip side, well, one, what if you're an emerging brand and how are you building those customer relationships? Especially in this world where I think AI and agents increasingly are gonna be sitting between a brand and its customers.
What does it really mean to own the relationship and how do you own the relationship in that instance? so I know I've asked a few different things and so Adam just like wanna react to that as someone who has focused so much of your career on those like, you know, brand customer relationships and loyalty.
Adam Brotman (05:32)
I would say it's interesting because I think the answer is, and I'm gonna use an overly used term, but is user experience or UX. So in fact, I thought Andy was gonna say that because Andy's right about community, distribution, data, and we also, when Andy and I talk, we also throw in and UX. And now it's a little counterintuitive, right? Because you could say, well.
Andy Sack (05:53)
was I
was gonna throw that in, but but I had to make my point about creativity.
Adam Brotman (05:58)
Well, and what's interesting is the UX point, I think AI is gonna force us all to take that point a little more seriously and be more literal. And I think Andy's right about where to aim it is a really important point because there's almost like surface level UX, which is like something that AI can do very well. Like AI can graphically design digitally a website, an app.
PDF and a piece of marketing content. So there's the UX that's about design. And then there's the UX, which is like
Truly the user experience. So if I go into a restaurant and eat, if I order a product from a website and I get it and I unbox it and then I consume that product or use that product, and then the customer service that comes along with all of what I just said, that in a broad sense is all UX. And that's a hard thing. AI will be good at that too. It'll be good at the kind of full stack, it's almost like I'm making up a term, but full stack UX.
So going to a restaurant, you have a user experience. was it clean? Did you get good service? Was the food good? Was the ambiance right? Was the music right? was the lighting good? was the menu clear to understand? Those are all parts of UX. We don't usually talk about it as UX, right? We talk but we do talk about it as a brand experience. But I do I think UX becomes something that
is a full stack experience. And Andy's right that as an emerging company to your question, Rose, it's like, well, the surface level UX AI can just handle. So what are you gonna ask it to do? And are you thinking about the full stack of that user experience?
And I think that becomes something that as an incumbent, you can build your brand on, you can build your company on. and sorry, excuse me, as a I meant to say as a upstart, you can build your brand and build around that. But as an incumbent, you can still defend yourself in that way, right? you have advantages over others that can just use AI to copy things. you can be more intentional and not to keep plugging our
book but in agents inc we say and it's like the most important point of the book it's almost the most important point of the AI era it's all about the human having taste and judgment and experience to know where to point as Andy said kind of point the AI so those become your motes is how you use the AI not what the AI can just do. it's not just like the pretty website you know
Rose Kelly (08:14)
Yeah. I think it's really interesting what I'm hearing is both in like when Andy's talking about aiming, but also what you're talking about. This I think there's also consistency and like this idea of that you can't just like of having that consistent experience and really choosing, hey, this is what we're going to do. Because the one thing with AI is I don't always be suggesting new things for you to try and new things for you to change. And I think there's something to be said about the humans deciding what's, you know, what will not change and what is gonna be consistent and what is gonna have that good experience. So
It's really interesting. Andy, anything to add?
Andy Sack (08:46)
it's interesting. I think the way you phrased consistency is correct. And that is not what I meant. What I meant about creativity and aim, which gets at this element of what Adam was saying, taste, is really what is the moat, it's the most human of elements.
It's the idea and the insight. If copying can happen of product features, of content, of ad campaigns, it's actually what is the insight that makes you distinct and different. And AI is not good at that. it's not good at naming exercises. It comes up with lots of different ideas that get your brain going.
But to actually have the insight of this is a good campaign and I'm gonna aim resources at that, that's the defensible moat repeatedly.
And that's not about consistency. It's about uniqueness.
Rose Kelly (09:38)
Okay, I'm gonna stop you guys.
Adam, you wanna react to anything that Andy said before I kind of move us on?
Adam Brotman (09:44)
I want to react to one thing. I agree with Andy what Andy said. He's right. there are things that AI is still not good at, and they do tend to be certain elements of like, you know, that really come from understanding your industry, understanding your customer, understanding your brand, and like being able to, you know, make sure that you sort of put the right combination of things together and aim it.
in the way Andy's talking about aim it, in the way I'm talking about in terms of a full stack experience. But I will say one thing, 'cause I can't not say this, which is that, you know, we're recording
in October of twenty twenty-six and someone might be watching this someday on the internet on YouTube and be like, look at that they were talking about when AI wasn't good at this and wasn't good at that. You know, like AI is getting very, very good at things very, very quickly that it's not good at today. but it doesn't change the fundamental things that we're saying on this. I believe. I believe that for even as we
Andy Sack (10:44)
As
Adam Brotman (10:44)
We
get into No, but what I'm what
Andy Sack (10:44)
of today, I mean we can't predict the future. As of today.
Adam Brotman (10:48)
I'm what I'm trying to say is we're coming into this singularity now. I hate to be so weird about it, but we are. we're coming into the singularity, we're in this takeoff mode, but we're still early in that. And I don't know what that means. I don't know if that's a year or three years or five years or whatever, but
Here's what I'll say is part of your brain, I hate to say it, has to think about not only can AI copy anything in terms of technology and user experience and design, it's very good at those things right now.
But it will start to get good at these other things. so you have to in your mind think
about where you're steering it. Because the one thing that's still always gonna be the case, for as long if this isn't the case, I don't even know what we're gonna be talking about. So
is that the humans will be the ones that own.
the business that experience the products that are living on this planet. And the AI is going to be amongst us and helping us in a tool and amazing and is going to get more and more powerful. But we're the ones that are steering. We're the ones that are pushing it. it's still the brand that's going to own the customer experience.
It's still the brand that's gonna own the customer relationship, I should even say, more importantly. so even when AI is good at everything, your brand's still gonna matter and you have to understand that and sort of
Push to use the AI in ways that amplify those things that are uniquely yours, that the AI can't replicate. one thing's for sure, you can't just go to Claude or ChatGPT and say, make me a brand that is like a loved brand by tomorrow. it'll say, I can't do that. It can do a lot of things, but it can't do that. It'll never be able to make you a loved brand in a day. Not ever. I don't think ever. I think I'm safe from saying that. So, like, if you think about those things, you're like
like
okay but it can do a lot of other things I'm not trying to downplay or make people feel better but I'm just saying just lean into the fact that it's gonna keep getting better at these things so you can sort of understand where to position yourself against these things and I think it's actually making what Andy said even more important right about taste about pointing about creativity in the sense of like you got to know where to point it.
Rose Kelly (12:44)
Okay, I'm gonna ask you guys one more question on that. And I think just to bring it all together, if you are advising a CEO today, which is the one thing that you would build or protect now because you believe it'll compound over the next three to five years. Cause I think there's also this idea of you know what this temporary advantage versus this long term advantage that'll compound over time. So what would you advise? Andy, starting with you.
Andy Sack (13:09)
I mean I sound like a broken record. your own use and your team's own use and execution of AI because in Forum three's consulting practice, we predominantly interact predominantly with consumer oriented businesses. And I'm yet to meet a CEO that has used the
AI enough to understand it, to truly aim it, and to truly be creative and do the thing that we just talked about in this podcast. And so it's really about your own team's use and execution of AI. And you can't, as we say at the end of this, you can't overinvest in AI education. And I don't mean that to be self-promotional. I truly believe it.
Rose Kelly (13:51)
give you a little twist on that and make it a little more difficult on you. if you had to choose if you had to
Adam Brotman (13:54)
Yeah. I thought it was a good answer, so yeah, trusted up.
Rose Kelly (13:57)
choose just one thing for a CEO to be able to like pick and focus on that you think is going to compound I kind of actually think I know how you're gonna answer this, but would you pick the customer relationships, proprietary context, distribution, trust, or a faster learning system? That's a lot of options.
Just one. Yeah,
Andy Sack (14:15)
Do I get to answer that question too, Rose?
Rose Kelly (14:17)
you can answer it too.
You get more time to think about it.
Adam Brotman (14:20)
So though can you give me the choices again? Sorry, Rose.
Rose Kelly (14:22)
Yep, customer
relationship, proprietary context, distribution, trust, or a faster learning system.
Adam Brotman (14:30)
I mean, yeah.
Andy Sack (14:30)
I have mine. Adam, you wa you ready or you want more time?
Rose Kelly (14:30)
It's hard.
Adam Brotman (14:33)
No, no, I what I was gonna say is I would honestly focus on distribution as like
Andy Sack (14:40)
Yeah.
Adam Brotman (14:40)
the number one thing to focus on.
Because again, what I say, you can't just go to AI and say, give me a brand that's meaningful and loved in a day. they all say that you can't do that. And in the same sense, you can't just go to AI and say, give me instant distribution. it can't do that. Now it can give you ideas, try to go build distribution, and that's one of the ways you want to use it. But that's why Andy mentioned distribution is a key thing. So that's my answer.
Rose Kelly (15:05)
You stole Andy's I know you stole Andy's answer.
Andy Sack (15:05)
I was gonna say the same thing. I I was gonna
say the same thing. I'm surprised, Adam, that you said that.
Rose Kelly (15:11)
Me too.
Andy Sack (15:13)
and and I the reason I say distribution is distribution is the precursor to data acquisition. It's the precursor to a faster learning loop, it's a precursor to all the stuff. So distribution as a moat is just
Rose Kelly (15:27)
Yeah.
Andy Sack (15:27)
i enormously valuable, and yet it's insufficient in and of itself.
Rose Kelly (15:31)
Such a good point.
Yeah. You can't do the others if you
Adam Brotman (15:32)
Yeah, you know, I was g
Rose Kelly (15:33)
don't have distribution.
Adam Brotman (15:35)
Yeah, so what I'll say is the you know Yeah,
Andy Sack (15:37)
And say it quick 'cause I'm cause I'm gonna close this up.
Adam Brotman (15:40)
okay. Well
Now I'm gonna talk really slow since you told me what to do. So the
Andy Sack (15:44)
All right, take your
t take all the time in the world, buddy.
Adam Brotman (15:48)
So I was gonna say trust, right? And then I thought about it and I realized how hard distribution it is, and I thought Andy was gonna say distribution, so I kind of wanted to sneak it in there and not look as dumb compared to him, because I think distribution is the right answer, and Andy's good at that. But you know what I thought about? I thought about that app that's out right now that I don't know if our listeners know about it called Instinct. And you know, they I think focused on
mystique in user experience and trust in a way, and then got distribution through this viral mechanism. So, anyways, I'm not going back on my answer, but I do think that like you can't just invent distribution. So you might need to get trust in user experience to get distribution is all I'll say.
Andy Sack (16:28)
Great concluding comment with all the time in the world
Adam Brotman (16:33)
Ha ha.
Andy Sack (16:33)
and a soft plug for instinct. because I also you were the one who got me to use it, and I it's a great product. thank you all for listening to AI First with Adam and Andy. For more about how to build and run a company in the agentic era, go to Forum3.com.
You'll find practical resources for leading with AI. Sign up for free weekly workshops and find links to our book, Agent Inc, How to Rebuild Your Company in the Age of AI. We truly believe you can't overinvest in your learning. See, you heard it twice. Onward.