Inside Marketing with MarketSurge

Welcome back to Inside Marketing with MarketSurge — your front-row seat to the boldest business insights and smartest strategies in the marketing game.
This week, Reed Hansen (Chief Growth Officer at MarketSurge.io) sits down with Josh Porter — a product marketer, strategist, and growth leader who’s helped everyone from scrappy startups to enterprise giants align marketing, sales, and customer success into one cohesive growth engine.
Josh is known for cutting through the noise, building scalable systems without losing authenticity, and translating complex AI-driven products into clear, compelling stories that drive revenue.
🎯 In this episode, you’ll discover:
  • Josh’s career arc: from AI product marketing to leading high-performing teams at scale
  • The storytelling framework he uses to make technical products relatable
  • How to bridge product and market so you’re not just launching products, but bringing the market back to the product
  • The real differences between product marketing at startups vs. enterprise companies
  • Why prioritization frameworks (like the Eisenhower Matrix) are survival tools for high-growth marketers
  • How AI is transforming product marketing (from customer research to competitive intelligence and messaging)
  • The future of AI in CX and sales — and why humans aren’t going anywhere (yet)
💡 Whether you’re a founder, marketer, or builder, this conversation is a playbook for aligning teams, scaling without chaos, and messaging with impact.
🔗 Connect with Josh Porter
📈 Connect with MarketSurge
At MarketSurge, we help you turn tools into systems — and systems into growth.
🌐 Website: https://marketsurge.io

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🎙️ Podcast: https://marketsurge.transistor.fm/

🧠 Want to see how MarketSurge helps businesses grow smarter, faster, and louder?
🎯 Book your 15-minute Value or Free Coffee Call: https://link.marketsurge.io/widget/bookings/15minutevalueorfreecoffee

Creators and Guests

Host
Reed Hansen
Reed Hansen is a seasoned digital marketing executive with a proven track record of driving business growth through innovative strategies. As the Chief Growth Officer at MarketSurge, he focuses on leveraging AI-powered marketing tools to help businesses scale efficiently. Reed's expertise spans from leading startups to Fortune 500 companies, making him a recognized authority in the digital marketing space. His unique ability to combine data-driven insights with creative solutions has been instrumental in achieving remarkable sales growth for his clients. ​

What is Inside Marketing with MarketSurge?

Welcome to Inside Marketing with MarketSurge — your front-row seat to the boldest business insights, marketing breakthroughs, and entrepreneurial real talk.

Hosted by Reed Hansen, Chief Growth Officer at MarketSurge and a digital marketing veteran who's helped scale everything from scrappy startups to Fortune 500 giants, this podcast dives deep into what’s really moving the needle in today’s marketing world. Find us at Marketsurge.io

Each week, we’ll break down the latest marketing and business news (minus the fluff), explore tech trends you actually need to know, and feature unfiltered conversations with the most interesting minds in entrepreneurship and marketing.

Whether you're a founder, a marketer, or just a curious hustler looking to level up, this is where growth happens—loudly, smartly, and with just the right amount of sass.

Subscribe, tune in, and let’s scale something legendary. 🚀

Speaker 2: Welcome to Inside
Marketing With Market Surge.

Your front row seat to the
boldest ideas and smartest

strategies in the marketing game.

Your host is Reed Hansen, chief
Growth Officer at Market Surge.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Hello,
and welcome back to Inside

Marketing with Market Surge today.

We're Jo, we're joined by Josh Porter,
a seasoned product marketer, strategist,

growth leader, and advisor who spent
his career helping businesses align

marketing, sales, and customer success
into one cohesive growth engine.

Josh has led teams at the intersection
of product to customer experience

and go-to-market strategy, working
with organizations ranging from

scrappy startups to enterprise giants.

He's known for his ability to cut
through the noise, focus on what really

drives revenue and build systems at
scale without sacrificing authenticity.

We're going to dive into Josh's playbook
on growth, strategy, leadership,

and why most businesses are still
overcomplicating what should be simple.

So Josh, thank you for joining us.

I'm really excited to have you on.

Josh Porter: I'm excited to be here, Reid.

Thanks for having me.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah.

Yeah, you bet.

And, and Josh, you know, we've met
years and years ago at A MBA conference

and, uh, we, I, I feel like I've been
able to follow your career largely

through LinkedIn and, and, uh.

Just really, really impressed with all
the steps you've, you've done and, and

all the content you put out in particular.

So, um, it's great work there.

Now I know you've worn a lot of
hats across, uh, different business

lines, whether it's marketing, uh,
you know, product, very product

focused marketing and, and.

Leading, uh, very high performing teams.

What do you think is like the, the through
line or the story arc of your career?

You're so far, like what, what have,
um, you know, what, what, what have

been the interesting points that
brought you to where you are today?

I.

Josh Porter: Sure.

So I am a product market
with a focus on three things.

One, impacting revenue, two,
creating compelling messaging,

and then three leading go.

Of market plans.

I have more than seven years of
experience leading marketing for AI

products, specifically in the cx,
in the customer experience space.

so I feel that's really helped me become
good at taking complex technical products

and turning them into compelling stories.

And so I think the biggest
thing for me is the ability.

To as a product marketer, be
that storyteller to take what

could be super scientific and
technical and make it relatable.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: So,
and that's a great question.

I think that's a challenge for
a lot of, uh, uh, you know,

businesses and, and, uh, whatnot.

You know, the product has to be
built by somebody with some deep

expertise and, um, but they often
have a hard time connecting, uh, the.

What it does or the value it offers with
the, the people that need to use it.

Is there a process that you have found
that is consistent at a high level?

And so I'm talking at a very high
level because a lot of my audience

are, um, in this, the small and
medium sized business space.

But I'd be, I'd be really interested to
hear what are the, the key processes.

Josh Porter: For me, when I try
to do positioning and messaging

for a pretty technical product,
the process that I follow is one,

try to understand the audience.

I really dive deep into customer.

Intelligence and market intelligence.

And then the

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Hmm.

Josh Porter: thing is develop
content that ties the needs of

the audience with the product.

So I'll look at when I, in terms
of understanding the audience.

Marketing 1 0 1 is understanding
your audience because

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah.

Josh Porter: needs to speak to them.

And so when it comes to doing deep
dives of customer market intelligence,

I will do in-depth customer
interviews, I'll do surveys with them.

I will listen to gong or chorus
calls recordings to try to understand

what are those kind of main pain
points that they're experiencing.

And then I try to understand and connect
those pain points to something that

we can offer, whatever product it is.

And typically in the contact center
space, the personas that I'm trying to

market to are VPs of contact centers.

The real challenges that they're
focusing on are threefold.

One, improving customer satisfaction.

Two, enhancing human agent productivity,
and then three, reducing costs.

So I can talk about all of this technical
gobbly gook about generative AI and

large languages models and how agentic
processes are gonna change your world.

that doesn't mean anything unless
I'm really talking about those pain

points that I mentioned earlier.

So then it's incumbent upon me as a
product marketer to say, I can help

you improve your customer satisfaction,
and can I, I can do it using

generative AI by doing A, B, and C.

So that's how I try to approach product
marketing from a storytelling perspective

by understanding the audience, getting
a deep dive into their wants and needs.

And then trying to tie the two, uh, p
the, the pieces of the product to what

can help them, uh, help them benefit,

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Okay.

Josh Porter: uh.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: So I would
imagine that there's a bit of, uh,

like there's a element of two-way
communication here where you are

relaying some of your findings to the
people that are making the product.

And because you, um, obviously you
do a lot of like, quote unquote,

like translation for your audience.

Um.

I'd be interested, to what degree do you
take your findings from your audience

back to the, um, like the developers or
designers of the product and help help

them further sculpt the product journey?

Um, you know, like what,
what's the balance typically

between those two efforts?

What, you know, which direction
does the communication flow,

Josh Porter: Yeah.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: uh, more strong.

Josh Porter: and that's the
interesting thing about product

and product marketing is.

Sometimes product marketing
can definitely be, can just be

a project manager for product.

Uh, it could be a one way street,
but for there to actual be va to

there to be actual value exchanged
in this relationship, product

marketing, and sometimes has to
come as a counterbalance to product.

that's not always doing what
the product team's goals are.

That's not always necessarily the roadmap.

coming with not just insights, but
opinions and advice on the things.

As a product marketer you are
observing now, what are those

things that you are observing?

I try to define, I, I, I, I've heard
this good def this really good definition

of product marketing is product
marketing is not just bringing products

to market, also bringing markets.

To the product.

And

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Right.

Josh Porter: a real key difference
because the product managers, they,

by default, they're just going
to be the experts on the product.

And so yeah, maybe you could come
close to understanding all the bits

and the bites of the product, but
you as the product marketing manager.

Can bring insights they
don't have from the market.

You bring the market to the
product because ultimately that's

what the product is serving.

So what does that look like?

Going back to what I said earlier,
it's understanding your audience.

It's doing in-depth
interviews with customers.

I try to use a framework called the Jobs
to Be Done Framework, which was developed

by Clayton Christen, Harvard Business
School professor, which is really a

good foundation to try to understand.

What is the problem?

What is the job this per person's trying
to get done and then trying to fill that

job with a multiplicity of solutions.

And that's really key to
get that market insight.

And so you get those customer interviews
I mentioned, you do surveys to get more

scale in terms of the feedback on that.

And then.

Especially in the software industry,
there's lots of analyst firms really

trying to understand almost at a
analyst level, where are the market

trends going or have they been, what
is the competition doing about it?

then that's the third piece is again,
bringing the market to the product.

is the competition doing and how
are they doing it differently

than you, your product?

So that's how I approach it.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Okay.

No, that's, that's great.

Um, have you noticed, so I know you've
worked at, uh, very large companies

and also, uh, more of the startup
mode or high growth mode companies.

What, you know, in, in this role
that you've described, what are the

main differences between the largest
companies and, and, and the others?

Um, not saying one's better or,
or not, but, um, I would imagine

that there, the day-to-day
probably looks a little different.

Josh Porter: yeah.

So when you're in the larger company,
you tend to be a very specialized

in something and, uh, you're going
to have just a few products that

you work on, sometimes it can.

into being just a project manager
instead of, uh, actual marketing.

Depending on the team, this is obviously
depend, it depends on a large company,

multiple teams and multiple products
have different kind of cultures.

So it, it can just

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Mm-hmm.

Josh Porter: But when you've got a
larger company, you've got all these

other specialists can do certain things
like growth marketing, like product

marketing only a few products or, uh,
you've got, uh, sales enablement teams.

But then at smaller companies, you
don't have some of all, you don't

have all of those resources typically.

It might be you're the only person
doing as a product marketer, the

competitive intelligence, the sales
enablement, and you, yeah, you

probably have growth marketing there,
but the team probably won't be as

big, so you've gotta be able to.

Work hand in hand with growth
marketing at a pretty tight level

in those particular cases as well.

So I, those are the differences that
I see between the bigger companies

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Mm-hmm.

Josh Porter: the smaller ones.

I would also add is your
ability to influence by default.

When there's less people,
you have more influence.

So that's a nice, I think, benefit.

But at the same time, there's
always, always two sides of a coin.

There's a lot more pressure
on you, uh, when it's just

your, your neck on the line.

that's, that's, that's another
big difference I see between

the large and small companies.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Interesting.

And, um, do you find that, okay, so, and
this, this leads me into, as you know,

as I mentioned, a lot of people in my
audience are in the small and medium

sized business space and may identify
with what you described at a, like a

high growth company a little bit more.

Um.

You know, so having worked in both
scenarios in a, in a high growth

scenario, where, what do you prioritize
as far, because you, you, you're

now doing it all as you described.

What, what do you think is, like, where
do you find the low hanging fruit and

where, what do you try to do first?

Josh Porter: Yeah, so I actually
was just, uh, to one of.

A person who is, I, I feel a
thought leadership person in,

in product marketing and is, uh,
really been a good coach for me.

She talks about a, uh, action
priority list or matrix.

So, and this is very similar to
the Eisenhower Matrix, right?

Where it's like urgent and
important, important but not

urgent, et cetera, et cetera.

So those, like those quadrants.

And the interesting thing is, is
that your leadership and maybe even

the top leadership, has a lot of
pressure sometimes to want themselves

and everybody else to do everything.

And product marketing is especially
susceptible to that, uh, temptation

because people can see it as a catchall
a lot of things because interfaces

with so many different teams.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Right.

Josh Porter: going back to your
question, how do you prioritize it?

You've gotta be able to have some
type of framework, like an action

priority matrix like Eisenhower Matrix
to say this is what's most important.

And you have to back that up.

What, how do you define what's important?

And that goes back to customers.

So

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Mm-hmm.

Josh Porter: nobody cares
what your opinion is.

care a lot about what your
customer's opinion is.

that's why I try to use customer data
a lot for those types of discussions.

So that's how

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah.

Josh Porter: that's how you
define what's important and urgent

and then kind of go from there.

And then for the other

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Okay.

Josh Porter: not going to make urgent.

The other people think, maybe even your
manager or higher level leadership.

That's where you again, kinda
showed this matrix with data

on why you've made it this way.

And hopefully they either agree,
but if they don't, then you have

to disagree and then commit.

So that's how I approach different
priorities amongst different

teams as smaller companies.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Fantastic.

Well, I wanna pivot slightly and,
you know, you have some really great

experience in the AI space, in, in
software, and, um, you know, I, I, I work

with ai, I use a lot of AI platforms.

Um, I'm not, uh, but I, I don't
have that direct experience.

Uh, and so I'm, I'm interested
to hear your, your insights here.

You've worked in product
marketing before AI really was,

uh, you know, available for.

Businesses or, or individuals.

And you've worked, uh, deeply in
that, in that time period since.

Do you, do you te tell us a
little bit about how, uh, how

that changed product marketing?

Because I mean, you can't,
there, there's just.

Uh, you know, you can't look at a, a
software product without considering

how AI can be infused today.

What, what have been
the biggest differences?

You know, I'll just, I'll leave that open.

Maybe I, because I, I, I, I'm like,
I wanna continue the question.

Say like, well, you know, is it faster?

But I'll, I'll let you
let you run with that.

Josh Porter: Yeah, I do feel pretty
fortunate that I was in AI before.

It was cool.

I've been doing this for almost eight
years now, and I've been in that

space for almost that amount of time.

And, uh, I'll say before November,
2022, when Chad GPT came out.

The, when I was marketing AI to a lot of
companies, it was just a science project.

It's like, oh great, that's awesome.

It can do this.

Uh, you know.

Interesting.

Well, that's like far down in the future,
we don't really need something like that.

We want more higher priority things like
networking, storage, compute, power,

you know, the kind of bread and butter.

but I'm glad that AI has finally
kind of seen its time in the sun.

And as I've been part of that
journey, it's been interesting.

While I was at Google, we had to pivot
from conversational AI to generative ai.

And you know, talking about the
differences between that, you

know, instead of pre-canned you're
gonna get more sympathetic and,

uh, more targeted summarizations.

a conversation using generative ai and
then the, when I, and then then had to

pivot from generative AI to AG Agent ai.

what

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Mm-hmm.

Josh Porter: To be honest, there's no
one single definition of what that means.

AG agent, it sounds so uh,

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Right.

Josh Porter: the way
that I like to define it.

Not everyone necessarily
agrees is it's two things.

One, the ability to make decisions on
its own, and two, using external tools.

So a good example is you're going
into a bank branch and you've got

someone that's over home loans.

You've got someone that's over
credit cards, you've got someone

that's over deposit accounts.

You go to the home loan person, they're
at their computer, they're accessing it.

tool, they're accessing a
qualification tool and then they

let you know whether you can get a
home loan at what you know, rate.

It's the same thing with a agentic ai.

an AI agent has access to external tools,
just like a person using a computer.

So except in this case, they're using
APIs instead of hands, and they're

gonna access the CRM tool or access
the qualification tool, then they're

gonna make a decision on their own.

Based on the criteria that
they've been trained on.

So you don't have to have a
human making those decisions.

There's a built-in ability to qualify
somebody for a particular loan.

So that's how I look at Agen ai.

Again, that's not the, I.

Most universal definition, but I
think the fact there isn't one that

creates an opportunity for marketers,
particularly product marketers, to

come in and say, this is what it is.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge:
Yeah, no, that's a great point.

You know, and I, I, I feel like
defining, you know, like I understand

AI from how I use it, but sometimes I
really struggle with articulating that.

And I, I could see that, uh,
there's real value in being able

to message that effectively.

Um, but I wanna drill in
a little bit more on that.

Um, do you, where do you see
the biggest opportunities for a

product marketer like yourself?

You know, what, what is your role going
to look like in the next few years?

Are, are you going to be doing, um,
I mean, it sounds like a lot of it is

bringing the product to the audience
more so than, than the other way.

Um.

Kinda like we were talking about earlier.

Is that accurate, do you think?

Josh Porter: so I think
there's a few things.

Uh, at a high level, the things
that'll change are your ability to

understand the customer a bit better.

So yes, you'll have, you'll have access
to more customers, but also AI can

help you have a proxy for customers.

So I will, as I mentioned that
jobs be done framework earlier,

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Mm-hmm.

Josh Porter: to use AI to have a.

Essentially proxy for a customer when I
can't access one to help create messaging.

Uh, I also help it to in improve my
ability to understand the competition.

I'll use tools like perplexity.

is a really great time.

Uh, AI tool to gather information
and synthesize it across multiple

competitors, and I give it the
criteria that I'm looking for.

So instead of spending hours on
identifying the differences between

us and our top two competitors, can
do that within a matter of minutes

using a tool like Perplex it or.

Once I've had that information,
I've really like to use tools like

Google Notebook, lm, where I've
got the information that I gather.

I can contain it to a one specific
tool doesn't have data coming from

General World Knowledge, but only the
knowledge that I feed it, and then

I can create summarizations assets.

Uh, decks, different types of content,
even podcasts, uh, through that tool,

that I can use for internal trainings that
I can use for external customer assets.

Many, many different use cases.

So those are just a few examples
of how I've been using ai.

For my particular function and how I think
it's going to continue to help evolve as

AI develops and gets better and better.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah.

Yeah.

Uh, now you've done a lot of work
with, uh, call centers and, uh.

Things like that, you know?

And so one of the softwares I've been
exposed to and I've been experimenting

with or and, and even referencing the
age agent ai, is the external, uh, chat

bots, whether it's via text or, uh, these
chat screens or, um, voice ai, which.

Can be inbound or outbound.

Um, and I, I've, I won't interject
my opinion right now, but what, what

do you think of those technologies
and, and are they ready for,

you know, ready for production?

Are they, is this going to
be the inevitable future for

outbound sales, or, I don't know.

Tell me, what do you, what
are your thoughts on that?

Josh Porter: Yeah, I still, right
now, it's still gonna be a blend.

And I think the biggest thing about
AI is you gotta know that it's going

to help augment certain roles, whether
that's inbound or outbound calls.

it's not gonna, in the near
future, completely replace people.

Maybe some down several real
down the road, but there's still

gonna be humans in the loop.

And so when it comes to the CU customer
experience space, cell service chat bots.

That you go to all kinds
of major brands to use for

checking bills or doing returns.

that's honestly the one of the
ways that I prefer to do it.

'cause I don't wanna
have to wait for a human.

just nice to have some type of entity
that can just do it all for me.

And then if you do need to escalate
to some more complex situation, that's

where humans are still augmented by AI
saying, you know, they know who I am.

They see my purchase history, they
understand that I'm a loyal customer.

They see the problem that I'm having
with this particular product that

I'm returning, and they're able
to get that information quickly.

Then also make decisions quickly and
take action quickly because of AI

and what these tools can provide.

So that's happening now, and
I think that's really key.

So you've got these digital channels that.

Enable self-service.

But then you also have some of these
voice channels too that you can

speak with, actual human, but they're
still augmented by these AI tools.

And so that's the opportunity now
and it's just going to continue to

improve as, uh, more AI is developed.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah.

No, I, I think that makes a lot of sense.

And, and, um, yeah, and I, I guess
maybe I'll interject my opinion

after because, um, I, I think.

It, it, I don't think today it's ready.

I agree with you.

I don't think it's ready to take the
driver's seat for sales and, um, but

I, I, I do like every prediction I've
made or thought like, you know, like

it'll never make great content or, or
anything is just, seems to be overturned.

You know, it just keeps
getting better and better.

And so, like, I, I don't wanna ever say
it's never gonna get there, but, uh, to

the point where it's like a one-to-one.

You can use an AI agent or a human agent,
and, and the results will be the same.

I mean, I, I wouldn't be
surprised if it does get there.

Um.

I do wonder though, you know, the, the one
thing I've never had an AI do successfully

is show any form of humor or, uh, you
know, able to generate any sort of joke.

It just like, it's so terrible at that.

So.

I, I wonder if that's like the
ultimate pinnacle of, of being,

being, uh, uh, you know, a real, you
know, real human, human-like entity.

But, um, well, so overall, Josh, and you
know, just as we're wrapping up here,

do you feel, um, when we're, when we're
talking about AI in the future of, uh.

F products, digital products, whether
it's in your space or outside.

Do you feel a sense of optimism or do you
feel a sense of pessimism for, you know,

our culture for the future of our jobs?

You know, what, what would
you say is, is the prevailing

feeling, optimism, or pessimism?

Josh Porter: Prevailing feeling
is optimism, but there's not

going to be, it's not all gonna
be rainbows and puppies, right?

obviously there's a lot of
fear replacement with ai.

not already, not
necessarily in good shape.

there's lots of companies, uh.

Trying to decide whether they use
AI or human, in, in terms of how

they're gonna help with their costs.

So it's not, it's gonna be a bumpy
road, no if, ands, or buts about it.

I think there'll get to be a steady state
and there will be other opportunities

opened up because of ai, for humans.

And so I think in the long term,
there's definitely, uh, a Bright future.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah.

Okay.

Well good.

I think I share that perspective as well.

The, and that's well said.

I, um.

I, you know, and, and I also say like, I,
I feel like it's, it's totally unknown.

Like there's just so, so many things that
could happen and, um, but I'm, I'm excited

and so far it's been a really interesting,
uh, journey with, with these AI tools.

Well, Josh, you put out so much
great content, um, whether it's on,

on LinkedIn or your podcast, um.

And I wanna give you a
chance to, to plug all this.

Where can people find you if they'd
like to hear more of your thoughts?

Josh Porter: I appreciate that, Reid.

So yeah, I have podcast that's called
Porter's Product Marketing Podcast and

have lots of guests that are either
product marketers or work closely

with product marketers to just provide
insights, tips, and practical advice on.

On how to approach the function,
whether it's storytelling or go to

market plans or sales enablement.

So that's that.

I post that on YouTube as well as Apple
Podcasts, Spotify, uh, and I'll usually

post it on LinkedIn when it's ready.

so that's, that's the one channel.

On LinkedIn, I have a vlog series on,
I call it Tip Tuesdays, where I do a

92nd on some specific tip, uh, that
could be helpful for product marketers.

just to kind of do, you know,
instead of just something written,

have a video, have some kind of,
you know, drama to it, right?

Add some

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah.

Josh Porter: element.

And then I do have also a newsletter for.

Uh, those that really like to read.

Uh, so I was on, I'm on
Substack Porter's pm PO posts.

Uh, that is, uh, another channel for
me to kind of have a little more on

a specific topic, include of course,
visuals and have a little more details

on like being able to, uh, do a launch
campaign or understanding your ICP better.

Uh, so

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Awesome.

Josh Porter: a few channels that try
to promote and, uh, your audience will

check some of them out and get benefited

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah.

Definitely.

And, uh, you know, Josh, it's been,
it's been a pleasure and I will

include those links in the show notes.

Um, and, you know, please follow Josh.

I've, I've really enjoyed
the content you share.

I, you know, very, very insightful
and you do a good job translating

technical things for a general audience.

So, uh, great work.

Um, well, and Josh, again, it's
been a pleasure and I hope we can

have, have future conversations.

Josh Porter: Likewise Reed.

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