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Reimagining Black Health is a podcast dedicated to advancing Black health equity by exploring critical health topics through the lens of the Eight Dimensions of Well-Being—emotional, physical, occupational, social, spiritual, intellectual, environmental, and financial.
Brought to you by The Council on Black Health, the show highlights experts, advocates, and community members who are reimagining what it means to thrive and live safe, healthy, and happy lives. Through insightful conversations, we amplify the voices of those driving meaningful change in Black health and wellness.
Join us in achieving equity for generations. Donate to help the Council on Black Health drive lasting impact!
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Kelsie: It is also important, especially
these days for people to learn how to
be more trauma informed and culturally
grounded in the work that they do.
You want to feel affirmed by the
people that are around you and, be
in a space that invites wholeness,
where you can bring your whole self.
Melicia Witt-Glover: Welcome to
Reimagining Black Health, a podcast by
the Council on Black Health, where we're
reshaping the conversation around what
it means for black communities to thrive.
I'm your host, Dr. Melicia Witt Glover.
Today's episode focuses on occupational
wellbeing, how we find balance,
purpose, and joy in our work, and how
the environments we work in affect our
mental, emotional, and physical health.
We're joined by two incredible guests who
have helped countless people redefine what
a healthy career and workplace look like.
Dr. Monique Johnson, an executive
coach and career strategist with Dr.
MCJ Consulting and Kelsey Bonaparte.
A licensed social worker and workplace
wellness and mental health specialist in
the nonprofit sector in New York City.
Let's begin with a viral moment that
sparked conversation, the image of a
black woman sitting calmly on a rooftop
while the world burns around her.
It's been shared widely as a symbol
of emotional burnout, but also
as a form of radical detachment.
What does it say about
how we're experiencing and
surviving our work environments?
So, uh, wanna start the
conversation with our guests off?
Uh, first of all, welcome.
Thank you for, for joining us today.
Um, do you all remember that image?
Have you seen that image?
There's an image.
It's, it's, it's black women.
They're sitting on a rooftop
and everything is on fire.
And, and, and the black
women are chilling, looking.
We're not trying to put out the fire.
We're chilling.
Yes, I remember.
You remember that?
So the, the, the image of black women on
a rooftop, as everything burns down has
been described as black burnout, energy.
What do you all think that
says about how many of us feel
in our workplaces right now?
Um, I'll
Kelsie: start.
So I feel like I, with black
burnout, energy and how it
reflects, so I just think that.
What it's been feeling like is that
we've been carrying too much for too
long, um, with little support, and
we've seen that time and time again.
Um, so I think that it just
resonate with us, like we're gonna
chill out and see what happens
and let the chips fall within May.
Um, you know, sometimes we're
expected to be the backbone and the
fixer and everything in between, and
sometimes we just wanna, you know,
let it all burn and see what happens.
So.
The workplace right now, we need to
start focusing on like ensuring that we
don't even have to get to that point.
Like what can we do?
What systems can we fix so we don't have
to, so we can work together as a team.
Mm-hmm.
Um, in this world, in this country,
and not have to feel like we have
to leave people where they are.
But that's the energy right now.
Melicia Witt-Glover: You,
you, you quoted usher.
I feel like you should let it burn.
I hear you.
Monique, what about you?
What do, what do you think it
says about how we are feeling
in our workplaces right now?
Well, I agree with Kelsey.
Dr. Monique Johnson: It definitely,
um, you know, signifies burnout
and we're just gonna, you know,
chill and see what happens.
I also think of it in a way that's
a little different in that they're
sort of centering themselves.
They're prioritizing self.
You know?
Mm-hmm.
Self-care.
I know we use that term a lot, but
they're sort of centering themselves
and not throwing on that cape and
running around and doing all the
things that we typically tend to do.
So, yes, I think, um, you know, I
think it's definitely symbolic and, um.
We need to rest.
We need to take time.
Time to rest
Melicia Witt-Glover: you.
It's like you're reading my mind.
'cause my next question, when you said
centering yourself, you said rest.
That is a hard concept.
That's a hard thing to do.
What does it mean to let black women rest?
And why is that such a revolutionary
idea, particularly in work culture?
And Monique, I'm gonna start with
you since you brought up rest.
What does it mean to let black women rest?
And why is that such a. Hard concept to
think about when it comes to black women.
Dr. Monique Johnson: I think that people
definitely need to let us rest, but
we also need to let ourselves rest.
I think we've been conditioned in a
lot of different ways that we have
to do all things, and I think like
especially in the workplace, we have
to be able to have those conversations,
games to prioritize well, what's most
important, and to be vocal in our.
And about saying, you know, I can
do this in this timeframe, I can
get this done in this timeframe.
Pacing ourselves and not allowing, you
know, people to sort of just keep piling
on us and putting on us all the time.
So I think that we also have to
kind of advocate for ourselves
Melicia Witt-Glover: mm-hmm.
Dr. Monique Johnson: As well as, uh,
you know, come up with strategies
where, you know, we can do things.
I always tell my clients
to make it work for you.
Make it work for you as best you can.
So whether that means negotiating
or it means, you know, uh, different
benefits or what's most important
to you, make it work for you, that
needs to be your ultimate goal.
Melicia Witt-Glover: I don't feel like
we get the, I don't wanna say permission
because maybe people can't give us
permission, but I feel like we don't
get the, the grace or the leeway I'll
say to, to do that like other people do.
When we say, no, it's so offensive.
It's like, what do you mean?
I agree.
No.
How so?
You know, we say no is a complete
sentence, but it's like the world
is falling apart when we say no.
Yeah.
Dr. Monique Johnson: I mean, I don't
think we necessarily have to say no.
I mean, if it's something that needs
to get done, we can work around it.
We can work through it.
Uh, but I do agree, you know, people
typically don't have a whole lot of
grace for us, or don't take what we
have going on into consideration.
But that's where the advocacy,
the self-advocacy comes in.
Mm-hmm.
And the support, you know, supporting
one another, um, in the workplace.
But yeah, I, I agree with you.
I agree.
I don't think people are gonna be,
you know, that forthcoming in terms
of being, you know, understanding.
You know, we've worn capes, we
wear capes everywhere we go.
Mm-hmm.
In the workplace.
We wear a cape at home.
We're always doing all the things.
And so I think it's, I think it's okay to.
Say no or to say not yet, or
to say, can I do it like this?
Or can I, what do you think about that?
Melicia Witt-Glover: Mm-hmm.
So I'm going do it like this.
Not can I, I'm this, this, how,
this is how it's going down.
We can do it.
Yeah.
That works too.
That works too.
Kelsey, what about you?
What does it mean to let black women rest?
And why is it such a revolutionary
idea in our work culture?
Kelsie: Um, so for me, one, I wanna say,
um, that Dr. Johnson, she said a word,
make it work for you, because that's
something that I've been grappling
with over the past couple of weeks.
And it's interesting, my therapist
just asked me last night, like,
what does it mean to care less?
Um, because sometimes we care so
much and we still wanna get it done.
I think that, um.
Since the beginning of time with this
idea of wearing Cape that's like tied
to generations and generations of like
making sure, you know, our families are
taken care of and that our jobs get done.
Um, and I think it's a revolutionary
idea to get out of this trap
of what that looks like.
Um.
We have to release ourselves.
And so I think that, um, even in the work
that I do, I try to design workspaces
where rest is more intentional.
We talk more about like what
our boundaries could look like,
um, and how we can, uh, just
protect our time and our energy.
Because when we're able to rest,
we're able to create and we're
able to dream about the systems,
if you will, that we would like
to disrupt and make work for us.
Melicia Witt-Glover: So we're gonna,
I'm gonna, I'm gonna put a pin in that
'cause I wanna ask a question later in the
discussion, but you said something about
designing workspaces so that rest is,
rest is intentional and I wanna know what
that design looks like so I can do it.
And I bet you people that are listening
are gonna wanna know that too.
Um, before we get in, the last question
is before we, uh, turn into our sort
of deeper discussion, thinking about
this notion of, of, um, rest in
general, when we're talking about,
um, self-worth on our jobs and the
work that we do, what are ways that
we can rethink how we define success?
How we define productivity and how
we define self-worth is, and I'm
wondering if part of the reason that
it's hard to rest is because the
way that we're defining success is
almost something that's unattainable.
So are there different ways that
we should be thinking about what
success means, what it means to be
productive, and what it means to have
self-worth, self-worth in our jobs?
Kelsie: I mean, these days, I'm keeping
it simple with what success looks like.
I define, I can define
success every single day.
Like success means that I've gotten
two tasks done because my energy was
on 20%, and I'm feeling good about
that because who know if I was gonna
be able to get those tasks done today?
So I feel successful in that.
I had to let go of the pressure of.
Success being this grand idea.
Because if I do that every day, then
I'm gonna often feel like I didn't get
anything done and that's just going to,
you know, that's gonna hurt me at the end.
Mm-hmm.
So I think it's okay to define
it and switch it up and.
Make it work for you.
I, I'm gonna, I'm gonna keep
saying that today, um, after
Dr. Johnson say that, because I
think, I think that's what it is.
You have to choose yourself
and you can choose what success
looks like every single day.
Some days you're on a hundred and you
can knock out all these tasks, families
taken care of, like you had time for
yourself, and you got, you know, you met
all of your goals for the day at your job.
Um, there's, it's just a subjective
notion about what success is.
I don't, we don't have to
go into the dictionary.
We don't always have to follow
what our jobs say every single day.
We know what the mission is.
Mm-hmm.
We know what we have to get done at the
end of the day, at the quarter, and,
um, reach those, those higher goals.
But other than that, I
say, um, define it for you.
Melicia Witt-Glover: Mm-hmm.
I like that.
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Monique Johnson: Well,
you already know that.
I agree with you wholeheartedly.
And you know, I think the whole notion of
like overworking is just so played out.
Like I'm just, me personally,
I'm just so tired of it.
Like we tying success to, you know,
how stressed out you are or how
much you know you accomplished.
For me, in my own personal
life, I set daily goals and so
if I accomplish my daily goals.
You know, now I work for
myself, so I don't work in a
traditional environment, but.
If, uh, you know, I encourage people
I work with to set those goals.
You know, of course there's a
bigger goal and you know, there
might be quarterly goals that you
have to accomplish for your job.
But each day set those goals
and they don't have to be huge.
They don't have to be like,
I gotta get like a long paid
20 things done or whatever.
That's overwhelming.
So for me, I always prioritize and
I set like the top three things.
I might have five things on my list,
and I have the top three things.
If I get those top three things
done, then I feel great about
myself and, you know, right.
Mission accomplished.
And I still have my mental health intact.
I'm not on pins and needles, and my
anxiety hasn't shot off, uh, you know,
out of the roof because I'm trying to get
all these things done that, you know, just
are, they're not necessarily feasible.
To do so.
Those are tho those are some things that
I, um, you know, that I do and that I talk
to clients about because it's just, yeah,
I don't know where, well, I do know where
it came from, but it's time for it to go.
Melicia Witt-Glover: It's
know where it came from.
It's time for it to go.
I'm hearing a couple of themes already.
I'm hearing make it your own.
Do what works for you.
And I'm also hearing, thinking
about the big picture.
And you're not gonna get to
the big picture all in one day.
You're not gonna get to the
end goal all in one day.
So as long as you're continuing
to push toward that, you
know what you have to get to.
Um, so I think those are two thing
themes that we can, uh, keep in
mind as we're thinking about.
How we begin to redefine success.
I have a, a former board member,
Dr. Janice Johnson DAAs, uh,
for the Council of Black Health.
Shout out to Dr. Janis Johnson DAAs.
Um, we were working on, uh, there
was a focus group that was happening,
and I was all nervous about, well,
how many people are gonna come?
She said, the, the first thing
she said, you have to set your
bar a little bit differently.
First, you have to get to
the day without canceling.
That's a huge thing.
If you get to the day without
canceling, then if the room
is not empty, that's a win.
Everything else is just up from there.
And when she said that it, I relaxed.
'cause I was like, okay, we got
to the day we didn't cancel and
people showed up after that.
It was great.
What, what does a TikTok thing say?
A win is a win.
A win is a win.
And it turned out it was great.
The anxiety was happening
for, for nothing.
And, um, Dr. Johnson, you said
something else about, you know, we
have a lot of anxiety and for, for
most of the, most of what we do
isn't, isn't, uh, life altering.
Like the world's not gonna fall apart if
we don't get the thing done in that day.
So we're often anxious for no reason
anyway, we're, we're putting this
pressure on ourselves, so, all right.
Getting into, so now that we talked
about that, now we're, you all are
about to put a toolkit together
for us as we're listening to this.
So first question, what does
occupational wellbeing look
like in practice, especially for
black women, but in practice?
What does it look like?
What kinds of things are people doing?
What does their setup look like?
I don't know.
Kelsey, you said, you said you
intentionally set up spaces.
What does it look like?
Am I, is it like diffusers?
Is it like Maxwell
playing in the background?
What does it look like?
Kelsie: Listen, I'm here for a work
playlist, um, and changing it up whenever
you need so it could fit your vibe.
Often I'm on YouTube, like, this is
what I wanna listen to today and just
kind of zone out with my headphones on
so I can feel like blasted in my ears.
But um, yeah, I think that
also goes into just, um,
environmental wellness too, right?
If we're talking about the
eight dimensions of wellness.
Um, what does your
office space looks like?
What art inspires you, you know, what
um, affirmations do you have around you?
Making sure your space is not cluttered?
Um, but also thinking in like.
A big picture where you wanna make sure
that with, um, occupational wellbeing
in the practice, that you wanna go
into a space that feels that you feel
safe and you feel valued and respected,
um, and that you feel welcomed.
You know, I think that you wanna be
able to show up as your full self.
So, um.
I think sometimes we're in spaces where
we feel like we might have to code switch.
That's been a thing for years and
years and years and people were
tired of contorting theirselves
just to belong, you know?
So, um, I think that it is also
important, especially these days
for people to learn how to be more
trauma informed and culturally
grounded in the work that they do.
Um, you want to feel affirmed by
the people that are around you.
And, um, be in a space that
invites wholeness, um, where
you can bring your whole self.
So that's what I think about, um, ocu,
occupational Wellbeing and Practice.
Melicia Witt-Glover: What if
you're not in that kind of space?
What can you do?
I don't know, Dr. Johnson, if you wanna
take that, or Kelsey, you wanna keep
going, but I, I hear a lot of people
saying, okay, but that's not my space.
How can I create that?
Dr. Monique Johnson: It might
mean that, you know something very
simple, but maybe at lunch you.
Go on a walk, maybe there's a nice park
across the street and you have breaks.
You go across the street and you
sort of regenerate or restore
or whatever it is that you do.
So sometimes, you know, you do
have to create it for yourself.
It might not be like right there
at the site, but there might be
times when you have to take breaks
to go and do something else.
Um, other things, um, you can do,
I know, uh, some companies have.
Groups, they have, you know, I don't know
if in this day and age where we're getting
rid of things and DEI and et cetera, but,
uh, you know, workplace groups, whether
they're women or, or maybe you have an
informal group where you all connect at
lunch and you sort of talk or whatever.
So there are a variety of different ways.
Maybe there's someone in the workplace
who's mentoring you or who you sought out
and asked, Hey, would, would you mind?
You know, being a mentor for me or
being a sponsor, you know, that person
who talks about you in rooms where
you're not present, you know, says
good things about you and so forth.
So, you know, I think there's a
variety of different ways, like
informally, you know, depending on
your personality, but you know, some
of it may, uh, require that you step
out of your comfort zone in some ways.
But, you know, there are definitely
ways that you can sort of connect
with the people in at work that.
You believe you'll have a connection with?
'cause you won't have that
with everyone, you know?
Yeah.
You can't transform the whole entire
environment, but you can do some
things for yourself that, that support
what you need in that environment.
Melicia Witt-Glover: What about
people who work from home or people
who are, you know, say you're in a
department where you are the only
person who looks like you, or you, you
aren't connected with, with anybody.
How do you, how do you manage that?
So I, I heard you say connect with, with
groups, but you know, I, I, I know a
fair number of people who just are not,
either they're at home, so they're by
themselves during the day or they are
just not connected because of the, the
nature of the type of work that they do.
There's not a lot of, not a
lot of diversity, honestly.
So they're not really connected.
So how do they, how do they build that?
Yeah, I mean,
Dr. Monique Johnson: I feel like, just
like I said, like if there's one person,
or maybe there's two people you think
like, Hey, they seem like someone that I
would like to get to know a little bit.
So it will require, it's not
just gonna happen by itself.
Maybe it might.
Mm-hmm.
But I don't know.
Mm-hmm.
But if it's something that you desire
and that you want, then you may have to
step outside of your normal comfort zone.
You could still connect.
Uh, working from home, you could
still connect virtually and have
coffee chats and what have you to, you
know, build, um, build relationships.
Mm-hmm.
Kelsie: Yeah.
And I just wanna add to, um, Dr. Johnson's
point when she mentioned employee
resource groups and also advocacy.
If it's someone that, um, desires
to have that change, because some
people are perfectly fine just
kind of chilling on their own.
But if that is something that
you want for yourself, you can
be the one to lead that charge.
Right?
And say, I need to, maybe
we need a group that, um.
Depending on what your race,
ethnicity, religious practice
is, you can create that.
I think we're kind of, um,
accepting of more creativity and
being inclusive in our workplaces.
Maybe going to your people
and kosher human resources
department and creative proposal.
Like I think this is what, um, you know,
the holidays that are coming up or it's
something that we should put on our radar.
Can we create an experience where.
These groups of people
feel welcomed and invited.
And from there you can meet someone
that, um, you didn't even know
exists in the company that you
have some type of connection with.
And you're like, oh, and at
that point you can meet them and
maybe you can build from there.
Now everybody that you know, you
have something in common with.
It's not like you're gonna build
and be the best of friends.
But I think, um, just kind of taking
that leadership to create that
type of employee resource group
or you know, that experiences for
your colleagues can go a long way.
Mm,
Melicia Witt-Glover: mm-hmm.
Does it completely, uh, mess up the whole
notion of what you all are talking about?
If you, if, if folks build that
same kind of support outside.
Of, of work.
I think about, I think about the number
of times where I've worked, places
where, uh, I, I, my, my girlfriend
and I would, I'd be like, girl, I'm,
I'm about to, um, call you at lunch.
Let's let, we would
have our lunch together.
We didn't work in the same state.
We didn't work in the same.
In the same, um, industry, but
there were some interesting things
happening at both of our workplaces.
We definitely built a connection, but it
was not with the people on the inside.
But it seems like, as you all are
talking about building healthy workplace
wellness, building that on the, um,
building that outside without really
trying to connect with people inside,
it seems like that goes against.
Or it's, it's opposite of what
you all are talking about.
'cause I'm not now building those
connections with people on the inside.
So talk about that.
I got my support network, but it's
outside of Uhhuh, the workplace wellness.
So it's not really building the
building the connections that I
think you all are talking about.
Tell me about that and
what is the impact of that.
Dr. Monique Johnson: I
mean, I think it's okay.
I think wherever your sources
of support come from is fine.
If you, if your source of support
is, you know, your friend, I have
a lot of outta state friends, you
know, um, so I connect with a lot
of people outside of where I live.
But if it's important to you.
Again, some people are perfectly fine
working from home and it's just, they
just do what they do and they have
a whole other life outside of work.
Some people don't wanna connect with
people at work, but if that is your
desire, then, you know, the things
that Kelsey talked about in terms of
connecting with HR and so on and so forth,
uh, I think, you know, it's a start.
You know, you may have to be, you may
have to be the, uh, the fire starter,
be the, you know, igniter for this.
If, if that's what you want.
So, uh, you know, and it can start small.
Maybe you just meet one person.
Mm-hmm.
You know, I'm, I'm a believer in
setting small goals for myself.
I don't believe, you know, I'm not
like, well, these people like, oh,
you need to go get a group, and it
could just be one person that you.
Think like you might have something
in common with, you have lunch and
then, you know, maybe you mention, you
know, it'd be nice if we had a group.
What do you think about that?
Oh, yeah, great.
Yeah.
Let, well, you know,
maybe you two both can.
You know, meet with HR and
who knows what can happen.
There's lots of possibilities.
Melicia Witt-Glover: Mm-hmm.
Kelsie: Yeah.
Don't force it.
Don't force trying to build within,
inside the, uh, organization
within the company, wherever your
source of support comes from.
Just accept that we all
need support systems.
We have to continue to
nourish and build with those.
But I think, um, you don't really have
to place it with inside of your job.
It would be lovely.
If you do have that connection,
you know, in the same workspace.
But if you don't, I don't think
you have to force that because
genuine connections matter more.
Melicia Witt-Glover: Mm-hmm.
So Kelsey, you work directly
with organizations and
staff on workplace wellness.
Can you talk about some of the
biggest challenges you see in
creating supportive emotionally
healthy environments in workplaces?
You
Kelsie: know, it's interesting
because I have a lot of folks who
live, who work, um, in the private
sector, nonprofit sector, education,
tech, healthcare, all of that.
And what I've noticed, um, just a common
thread between, um, most organizations
and how people feel is just like
this notion of performative wellness.
Versus like actual emotional safety.
And I think that's one of
the challenges that we have.
Like, oh, we're going to be
well, but like, do people feel
safe, um, within their companies?
And so I think one of.
The themes is making sure that our
leadership is supportive, um, and making
sure that they are emotionally literate,
making sure that the people around us are
emotionally literate and you know, when
that cultural competence piece is missing,
when the safety is missing, um, wellness
can feel really like hollow and mm-hmm.
That's people, that's kind of
icky, you know, so I think it.
The work comes with bridging that gap
and facilitating like real conversations.
Like how are you doing?
How are you feeling?
What's going on with you?
Things happen each and every
day, um, in our companies.
And if we're thinking about on a
larger scale and what we've been
seeing on the news and how people
are getting laid off left and right,
um, you wanna be able to collect.
The honest feedback that our
employees are experiencing.
Like there's a lot of distress happening.
And when we get that feedback
and when we go back in, into
those, um, real conversations,
we're able to create action.
And so I think we need to start
thinking of, um, wellness as a system
and not just as like aesthetics and
this is this word we're throwing
out, but let's build something that
kind of brings us all together.
Melicia Witt-Glover: Mm. A
system and not just aesthetics.
I like that.
And Monique, you've guided people
through career transitions.
I know Kelsey talked about people
being laid off left and right.
You've, you've guided people through
career transitions and you've guided
people through leadership growth.
Mm-hmm.
What are some of the key factors
that you've noticed that help people
find fulfillment in their work?
Uh, well, the
Dr. Monique Johnson: first thing that
I tell people as they're transitioning
that companies are, you know, sort of.
Vetting you to see if
you are the right fit.
Well, you also can do the same.
Mm.
So you should, you know, and most
of us do, definitely do your due
diligence to get as much information
and get a good feel for the environment
that you're going to be working in.
And.
You know, by, you know, talking to other
people, if you know other people that
work there or you know, friends, have
a friend that maybe you can talk to.
But just to really get a sense and ask
those questions, um, that matter to you.
Um, you know, do you have, uh,
groups here or resource groups for,
for employees, uh, to enable them
to connect with other people, you
Melicia Witt-Glover:
know, that kind of thing.
Do people really tell people what's,
do people really tell you though?
Do people, if when you're asking those
questions, like if somebody came to me
and they were applying and they were
asking me for the, for the dirt, I
don't know if I'd tell 'em for real.
Dr. Monique Johnson: You mean
the dirt about the environment?
About it?
Yes.
Melicia Witt-Glover: The environment.
I don't know.
I don't know if I'd tell 'em for real.
I mean, I
Dr. Monique Johnson: guess it depends,
but you know, it's, it's subjective.
So anything anybody says,
you assess and then.
Make your own assumption, then you
proceed however you are going to proceed.
Right?
Just because somebody says it,
it could just be they had a bad
experience or whatever, but,
um, in general, but it helps.
'cause if you talk to five
people and they're like, this
is the best place to work ever.
That's very telling.
That sends a message.
But you know, you get, this is
always gonna be people who are
not, who don't love it, right?
Mm-hmm.
But my point is to not, I
encourage people to sort of.
You know, advocate in the sense that they
get the information that they need or that
they're not shy about asking questions
to that matter to them, to help them to
sort of determine if this is a, a good
fit or a good environment for them, or if
they think it will be a good environment.
Melicia Witt-Glover: We need a list of
questions that people should be asking.
We can put 'em, put 'em on the site
with this, um, with this podcast.
'cause I think a lot of times
I, I, I think people wouldn't
know what questions to ask.
And of course, you know, folks
put on their best behavior
when you're coming to visit.
Yeah.
And you're coming for an interview.
But what are the questions that we can ask
to suss out whether or not this is a, this
is an environment we would love to get.
That
Dr. Monique Johnson: you have, you know,
one just off the top of my head, you
know, what's a typical day like for you?
You know, uh, those types of questions.
Mm-hmm.
Very open-ended and you know, it'd
be interesting to hear what they say.
Right.
Melicia Witt-Glover: Got you.
Got you,
Dr. Monique Johnson: got
Melicia Witt-Glover: you.
So let's talk about burnout.
'cause we know people
are transitioning a lot.
People are getting laid
off, left and right.
People are tired.
It feels like the days and
the times are getting longer
simultaneously, longer and shorter.
And I hear a lot of people
talking about burnout.
How can we recognize early signs of
burnout before it gets to a crisis point?
What are some early signs of
burnout, especially in high
achieving or mission-driven
roles, early signs of burnout?
How can you tell?
Kelsie: I feel like burnout
isn't always loud, so if you.
Sometimes it feels like maybe a
small task, like sending an email
or having a quick conversation.
It can feel like a burden, right?
All of a sudden it's like,
I don't wanna do that.
And it only takes a minute.
Melicia Witt-Glover: Mm-hmm.
But
Kelsie: suddenly you're like, I don't
wanna do this, I don't wanna do that.
Um, it's just like.
Either, um, sometimes it's just
like emotional flatness too.
Like you are, you're not excited
about the work, you're not
as productive as usually are.
You kind of take your time and, um.
Just like your types of
productive productivity.
Also, it might feel like disconnection
to your colleagues, to the mission.
Um, you might be more
irritable than you usually are.
So, or sometimes it's like, I can't
think, I don't know what to do.
You know?
And this is something that I do every day.
I know that's something
that happens for me.
It's like my brain literally
is moving like a turtle.
And I'm like, okay, I
have to take a step back.
Even sometimes I could sleep
for eight hours and when I
wake up I still feel exhausted.
And that's when I noticed like
I need to start checking in.
Um, and so I try to create a system
that like helped me recognize.
What is it?
And that's why it's
important to be self-aware.
Like know what it is when you're at your
high and when you're like mid and when
you are just feeling super low because
those are the signs that that's gonna help
you kind of regulate before you collapse.
And so, um.
You wanna continue to feel safe, um, and
like have more of a restorative mindset
and just know what's in your arsenal
to h to help you kind of step back into
the game when you are feeling burned
out and when you are feeling burned out.
That's why it's important to have
like healthy connections with
your colleagues because then.
You can let them know like, Hey,
I'm not feeling my best, or, I
need a moment, I need a break.
And they, you know, they're, if you have
a healthy connection and if there's a
good rapport, they're willing to help
you and step in and get the work done.
So nothing falls behind.
Um, so I think that some of
the things to think about when
you're considering burnout,
Melicia Witt-Glover: what if you don't
have those healthy connections in this?
Like you see people getting
laid off and it seems like
workplaces are really competitive.
I wonder how many people
would feel comfortable.
Saying, I, I, I'm feeling burnt out
without feeling like there's gonna
be competition with their colleagues.
If you don't have that, what do you do?
Dr. Monique Johnson: Mm, that's a good
Kelsie: question.
Dr. Monique Johnson: I mean, that is a
really good question, but the only thing
I can think of, and um, Kelsey touched on
like the four things that I was thinking.
You know, there's emotional
symptoms, burnout, there's mental.
Symptom mental health symptoms.
There are physical symptoms and then
there are behavioral symptoms of brow.
Mm-hmm.
And I think she talked about all of them.
You know, she talked about fatigue
and, you know, feeling lethargic.
It could be headaches, it
could be, you know, lack of
sleep, your appetite changes.
This can be all kinds of things.
So I just, I, only thing
I can think of is just to.
Be self-aware and know that, okay, now
it's, I need to reach out or mm-hmm.
You know, hopefully you have people
around you who can, who know when
it's, when you're different mm-hmm.
Or when something is going on with you
that, that they ask or encourage you.
But sometimes, you know, you may
have to be the one to say, yeah,
I think I let this go too far.
I need to go talk to someone,
or I need to go to the doctor,
or I need to get some help.
Melicia Witt-Glover: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Monique Johnson: Um, so
Melicia Witt-Glover: yeah.
It's an interesting notion 'cause I know
a lot of, um, a lot of black women part,
uh, they're particularly in these, these
high achieving or mission driven roles,
which is one of the things we were,
we're talking about at the beginning
we're, we're at the top of the chain.
We're, we're by ourselves.
So there's not necessarily
peers that we could talk to.
You can't talk, you couldn't say to
the people that are working under you.
Or maybe you could.
Um, but I would think, you know,
for me, as an example, as the Cee
o of my organization, if I were
feeling burned out, I don't know
that I would say to a program
manager, Hey, I'm feeling burned out.
Can I, I just don't think that
that would be appropriate.
But, um, I'm curious to know what
you all think because then there's no
peers for me and my organization, so.
Uh, Kelsey, when you were, when you
were saying that was a good question,
that was kind of what I was thinking
about is who would I, who, who were,
who are the people that I, that would
be a part of my affinity group, so to
speak, and that's where I see a lot of
black women are kind of in these roles
now where we might be the only person
in our department, or there's not a,
there's not an equal that we could,
we would feel comfortable sharing.
Mm-hmm.
Kelsie: Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And that's real.
Um, sometimes people are uncomfortable
sharing, um, how they feel.
I, however, this is when you kind of have
to take ownership of yourself mm-hmm.
And make the decision to say,
I need to take a step back and
not be ashamed to say that.
Um.
Because if you're not at your
best, if you can't get the work
done, if you are feeling detached,
if you're not feeling creative,
if you're not feeling passionate,
the work is not gonna move anyway.
Mm-hmm.
So you'll have to make the decision
yourself and say, I am not feeling well.
I need a moment, and give
yourself permission to be human.
Say that.
So, um, I think even though I,
ideally you'll have your folks
and your people around you that
can kind of pick up the pieces.
But in today's society, like you
have to, you just have to have
that difficult conversation with
yourself and say, I'm, I'm good.
I'm done.
Because empty cup, no work.
Dr. Monique Johnson: Mm-hmm.
This is true.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And you know.
I said the help sources don't have to
be from in the workplace, you know?
Uh, it would be ideal, obviously,
but you can get some support or, you
know, go to your support system or
your, you know, your group or your.
You know, friends and talk with them
about that and vent or whatever,
whatever it is that's going on.
But at some point I agree with Kelsey
that you will have to, you know, if
it's impacting your work, that you
will have to maybe take a break or,
you know, talk to whoever in your
organization who you need to talk to.
Melicia Witt-Glover: Okay.
I got two last questions as we wrap.
This has been, this has been helpful.
You've given us a lot of tidbits.
So two things.
I'm gonna ask you to give me one
thing, um, and I'm gonna start with
this one, gimme one thing that we
could do to cultivate joy in our
careers, especially in systems
that weren't built with us in mind.
What's one thing we can do to
cultivate joy in our career?
To cultivate joy in our career?
Kelsie: Joy is my word.
I love joy.
I love black joy.
Um, you have to.
Similar to what I said about defining
success, you might have to define
joy on your own terms and think about
the ways you wanna celebrate yourself
and um, kind of connect within.
So, you know, you can experience joy
in multiple ways, but I think it's
kind of how we reclaim our humanity.
I always believe that our ancestors
kind of centered themselves around joy,
even when they had little to nothing.
And so, um, with the systems that
we have right now, and if you are
watching the news and the media,
it is there to make us shrink.
So we have to put in the effort to, um.
Cultivate that joy, right?
Like, what am I doing after work, right?
Am I going to get ice cream?
Am I going to meet up with a loved one?
Am I going to exercise?
And that also goes into like thinking
about coping strategies for burnout.
I'm kind of going back into
the last questions that you ask
because before you decide that.
I can't do this work,
or I'm super burned out.
Maybe tap into some of those
coping strategies that you have.
Sometimes there's like just some
energy that's pint up inside of you
and you might have to exercise and
you need, need to move it around.
And it's like, okay,
maybe that's all it was.
Like I haven't moved my body in a
little bit, or I sometimes you need
to drink a glass of water, you know?
Um, or you kind of need to take this.
Take a bath and it could
be those simple things.
Mm-hmm.
I will say that coping strategies can get
deeper than that, but sometimes it's the
small things that kind of sets you right.
However, um.
Joy is our birthright.
It's not like a bonus.
So we have to practice that every day.
And sometimes we need to ask
our questions like, what, how
do we, um, celebrate today?
How do we reclaim our joy today?
What do I wanna do to make sure
that I felt an ounce of joy today?
Like, ask that in your list of
questions while you're doing your
affirmations in the morning, or maybe
when you're doing an inventory at night.
Did I seek joy today?
Dr. Monique Johnson: Hmm.
Joy is our birthright.
Mm-hmm.
I love that.
Joy is our birthright.
It sure is.
Absolutely.
And I would, I agree that it's
the simple things, you know, it
doesn't have to be big things.
If you can do big things
good for you, that's awesome.
You should do big things.
But, um, it doesn't
have to be anything big.
And I can just share from a
personal standpoint what I do.
I have, um, I don't have a lot of
time in the mornings, but I. You
know, do meditation, prayer, and then
I also have a gratitude journal and
it has like three questions like,
and it frames my mind for the day.
What are you most proud of?
What are you most
looking forward to today?
Or what did, what was the best
part of your day yesterday?
Or, you know, those kinds of things.
So it just sets my mind, right.
So whatever it is that helps you to
set your mind right, if it's exercise
or whatever, I think that's awesome.
Um, I just came from Arizona and I went
on a five mile hike up there in the
Sedona and the Red Rocks and everything.
Mm-hmm.
My hands were swollen when
I finished, but I did it.
They say you gotta move your hands
when you, when you're, um, hiking.
So, um, so yeah, I mean, and
that brought me great joy.
'cause you know, my kids think I'm like
80 or something, like I can't do things.
I was like, I can still do things.
So, and then I also read a lot.
I just love to learn and take
in information and it Can
I share a book that I read?
Is that okay?
Absolutely.
Okay, so, well, no, I didn't read it yet.
I bought it and I've skimmed it.
It's on my reading list.
You know how that is when you buy all
these books and you kind of, right,
don't get a chance, of course, but
it's called The Rest Revolution.
Have you heard of it?
By Amanda, she's a black woman.
Her name is Amanda Miller
Littlejohn, the rest revolution.
It's called The Rest Revolution.
How to Reclaim Your Rhythm.
Conquer burnout when
overworking has become the norm.
Oh, oh, yeah.
She just came out with it.
She's on LinkedIn and all of that,
so I can't wait to dig into it.
I skimmed through it and she talks
about burnout and she talks about
it within these four seasons.
There's four different phases,
four seasons of burnout.
She talks about, um, um, purpose
scaping, which is kind of like
repurposing, you know, uh.
Rethinking your purpose.
Mm-hmm.
Continuously.
And then she talks about
restoring connection to yourself.
That, that, that, that
can bring joy as well.
Just restoring the connection to
yourself, whether it be doing the
things that you enjoy doing, that you
stop doing or doing something new.
Um, and then she talks a
lot about self-reflection.
How, how it's all grounded
in self-reflection.
So it's called the rest revolution.
By Amanda Littlejohn.
Amanda Miller Littlejohn.
She, Amanda Miller Littlejohn.
She lives in the DC area.
Washington, DC area.
Okay.
Yeah.
Okay.
Kelsie: I think I've heard of that book.
It's ringing a bell.
Mm-hmm.
And it's a yes.
I think I've heard of that.
Um, some people not too long ago
was talking about it and that, um,
is it a New York Times bestseller?
Dr. Monique Johnson: I don't know.
I don't, it might be by now, but
on the cover, I, you probably
can't even see it here, but.
Can you see it a little bit?
Yes.
Yes.
Okay.
Oh, you can see
it Uhhuh.
So it's a, it's a sofa.
The words, the rest is
sitting on the couch.
Yes.
Love it.
Love it.
Um, so, but
it doesn't say that it is.
No,
it will be.
Let's
Melicia Witt-Glover: say that.
Dr. Monique Johnson: It will
Melicia Witt-Glover: be, that's right.
I feel like we need to have a council
on Black Health Book Club and we need
to read that and discuss it together.
That would be great.
That might next on my list.
Yeah, that'd be great.
Absolutely.
Well see.
I was gonna ask, my last question
was gonna be, what's one thing
someone can do this week to work
on their occupational wellbeing?
But you already gave us two.
I think one is go get Amanda Miller
Littlejohns book and read it.
And I think the second
one is for us all to.
Start to think of one thing every day that
we're gonna do that's gonna bring us joy.
Uh, so we're intentional every day.
And at the end of the day, I think we need
to do our personal inventory to see what
thing brought us joy for the day, and know
that it doesn't have to be something huge.
It can be little things.
And if we start doing that, I think
that's gonna move us along our way.
So you have given us our assignments.
Thank you Monique and Kelsey, for
helping us to explore the deeper
layers of occupational wellbeing.
Anything from navigating burnout to
reclaiming joy in our work lives.
To our listeners, your work matters,
but so does your wellbeing, whether
it's setting a boundary, taking a break,
or reconnecting with your purpose.
We hope you'll take one small step
this week toward a healthier work life.
To learn more, visit council BH as
in council on black health council
bh.org and follow us on social media.
Be sure to subscribe and join us
for future episodes as we continue
exploring what it truly means to thrive.
Thank you ladies.
I'm going outside to find me some joy now.
Kelsie: Love that.
Thank you.