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Veterans know how to lead. The lessons we learned in the military form the foundation for bigger successes in business, entrepreneurship and community.
Host John S Berry, CEO of Berry Law, served as an active-duty Infantry Officer in the U.S. Army, finishing his military career with two deployments and retiring as a Battalion Commander in the National Guard. Today, his veteran led team at Berry Law, helps their clients fight some of the most important battles of their lives. Leading successful teams in the courtroom, the boardroom, and beyond, veteran leadership drives the firm’s rapid growth and business excellence.
Whether building teams, synchronizing operations, or refining tactics, we share our experiences, good and bad, to help you survive, thrive and dominate.
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[00:00:00.000] - John Berry
The problem is if we see something, we want to say something, but we don't want to overstep our bounds. But I always say, look, if you're trying to win, you can't worry about stepping on toes when you're busy stepping on the necks of your competitors. Welcome to Veteran Led. I'm your host, John Berry. This week, our guest is Brad Flanagan, an Army combat Veteran and real estate entrepreneur. In this episode, we explore strategies to encourage and influence team members to perform at their best. There are times when it's unclear whose lane it is, and that's the fault of the leader, right? No, this is your lane. These are your metrics. I want your feedback. You can see things that I can't see. And let's face it, a lot of metrics are intertwined. At least I've noticed in our organization, for every metric that we're tracking on our weekly scorecards, there's three or four staff people that touch that in some way or another. It's like, this may not be yours, but you have a chance to improve that number through collaboration. I think it gets really murky and muddy, but I like the fact that you're checking in with your leaders and making sure that it's happening.
[00:01:14.650] - Brad Flanagan
A lot of times a leader, specifically, will allow a certain action, or maybe your coworker in a certain department, one stronger than the other. And they just say, oh, it's easier for me to just do it myself instead of teaching them or guiding them in the ways that will make their responsibilities most efficient. Instead, when you take that on and you allow that to happen, then you can no longer blame the person who's not doing the job themselves. I had a great section sergeant who would not allow me to ask him a question unless I asked Google first. And if you asked a stupid question, it went up on the whiteboard in the office. It really held me accountable to ensure that I was at least seeking out the answers or the procedure that I should have followed before I sought out his guidance on how to do it.
[00:02:17.460] - John Berry
Yeah. There are these time vampires, where people come into your office and they ask you a question, and it's like, but wait a minute, I hired you to do this. It's like the Army mission statement. We tell you the who, what, when, where, and why. We do not tell I'll show you the how. You must figure out the how. That's why you're in a leadership position. And it drives me crazy when someone comes into my office with a problem and they say, so what do I do? And I say, well, okay, let's back up here. Let's define the issue. Let's define the problem. Okay, so this is the problem you have. Yes. What have you done so far to solve that problem? Have you researched it? And it may not be Google. Back in the military, when I was in, you didn't look at Google. You looked at the ARs and the FMs, the regulations, the field manuals to find the answer. And so, a young lieutenant came to me and asked me that question. I said, well, lieutenant, tell me what research you've done. Tell me. Because in the end, we're not helping them if we just keep giving the answer.
[00:03:11.700] - John Berry
And they're just going to keep coming back. It's going to suck more time and more energy and more focus from us. So, we have to have those conversations with the subordinate leaders saying, well, what have you done so far to find the answer, what are the three courses of action? What's the recommended course of action? Okay, so what do you need me to... Where do you need my help? And sometimes they may say, well, the best ones were, Sir, I've looked through three different courses of action. I'm really stuck between these two. Here's the advantage of the other one. Here's the advantage of this one. Is there something I'm not seeing? I love those conversations because I feel like I'm talking to someone who has done their homework, done their preparation, and they're coming to me to solve a problem. They're not dumping the problem on me. They're saying, I've got most of the solution here. Can you please just help me? Give me some of your wisdom or some of your judgment to ensure that I don't screw up. And a lot of times in training, I tell them, okay, Lieutenant, that sounds... Are you sure you want to do that?
[00:04:09.990] - John Berry
Oh, yes, sir. Okay, but then you deploy, right? You're in Afghanistan. You can't do that. And Same thing in the business world where it's real dollars, your reputation is at stake, and sometimes you have to grab that lieutenant by the LBV and pull them back and say, okay, we're not going to do that. Not now. But that's also why we need to have robust less training environments.
[00:04:31.450] - Brad Flanagan
Exactly. And that's the one area that inspired me when I went from military to the civilian world was that you can place people where they need to be based upon their talents, not based upon a specified set of requirements. You've got to have X amount of college credits and X amount of time in the military and have these awards in order to be eligible this position or promotion, versus making quick decisions that you can make in the civilian world based upon, ultimately, like you were just saying, vulnerability, that lieutenant is being vulnerable by acknowledging that he's not proficient in a certain area and seeking out guidance from somebody who is proficient. And so, I continuously preach that vulnerability is a strength, not a weakness. If you're not asking for help when you're truly in need of it, then you're actually having a and that's just self-confidence. I'm not courageous enough to ask for help. It's a guy who doesn't want to stop and get directions when the phone is dead anymore. Now we have GPS. But I loved that mindset shift in myself because I was very stubborn. I did not want to ask for help.
[00:05:52.300] - Brad Flanagan
And then if I wasn't mature enough to evaluate it, then I'm maybe holding grudges that I shouldn't actually be holding. So being able to ask for help when you need it and knowing that, hey, even as a leader, if there's a particular area that I know is not a strength of mine, it's not an area I desire to be stronger, I can go hire somebody who's better at it. And then I have the ability to have the conversation with them to help them make the decisions that would be best for that function or their area of responsibility to function optimally.
[00:06:28.820] - John Berry
That's a great point. And we have to make that distinction between being vulnerable and being lazy. Laziness is, I didn't do the homework. I didn't prepare. Please give me the answer. Whereas vulnerability is, I've done my best. I've done my research. This is my best thinking. Is this right? Or I've done my best thinking, and I still don't think I have the right solution. Can you help? That's the vulnerability I want to see, is that I want to see that you prepare, that you put in the effort, and you're coming to me with your absolute best effort. You're saying, this is the best I can do. And if it's garbage, let me know. My ego can sustain that. And I think that's really where we improve, is where we give our best effort and we're vulnerable. But if we don't give any effort, we just show up and say, hey, boss, what's the answer? Hey, boss, help me out with this. What should I do? What about this? No, no, no, no, no. And that's whereas leaders we've got to send them back, and say, what have you done? Okay, go back and do these things and then come back and we can have a conversation. But I can't really help you until you do the work. And it's unfortunate, like you said, we think that service levels are down these days.
[00:07:38.490] - John Berry
Standards are down, which this is why Veterans are such a great hire, because Veterans understand that if you don't achieve the standard, you do not lower the standard. You change your actions.
[00:07:50.180] - Brad Flanagan
Absolutely. Yeah. It reminded me of an immigrant worker that we had recently been able to help in the mortgage world. And he said, back in Guatemala, we would have to sit up to eight hours a day just to find out if we would get some work. And then we'd only work for a few hours and get minimal pay. I came here and they gave me two jobs. And if you're keen on words, I'm a little keen on words, they gave me two jobs. It was a gift to him to have the job at one plant. And then he crossed street, eat, and then go back to work again and go to sleep, do it over again, and happened to pay off his house in no time because he's able to see it as an opportunity, changed his circumstances, right? He said, I'm going to do what it takes to get into the United States where maybe there's a few more opportunities for me and see that as an opportunity as opposed to a burden. It's crazy what the thing up here can do.
[00:08:57.110] - John Berry
Yeah, that gratitude for the opportunity. And don't get me wrong, Some opportunities must be earned, right? To serve as an officer in the United States military. Well, you have to earn that opportunity. No one just says, Hey, here's your butter bar. Go ahead, pin this on. You have to earn it. But then you have to continue to earn that opportunity. And when someone gives you a tough operation or a tough responsibility, then they really are giving you an opportunity because it's like, wow, I earned this opportunity, and now I'm being given the opportunity to prove I can do more. And if we approach that with a sense of gratitude, it's amazing. But too often, and look, it happens in the military, too, where you say, oh, we got this duty or we got this mission. Are you kidding me? But as a leader, we can't say that. As the leader, when we walk out of that operations order, we got to go back and tell our platoon, guess what, guys? We got the best mission ever. We, as leaders, cannot b**** down the chain of command. If there's a problem, we have to let our leaders know.
[00:09:55.240] - John Berry
But we have to support our leaders because our leaders are the ones that we're relying on to give us those opportunities. And that's when I see the opportunity for growth and potential, is where that leader sees it as an opportunity, where they say, oh, yeah, that's tough. Thank you. Thank you for this difficult opportunity. It's going to be difficult, but I'm going to grow from it. I'm going to learn from it. Pain is a teaching tool, and it is painful when you got to learn something new, when it's a skill you don't have yet, when you're just not good enough yet. But once someone gives you the opportunity to get better, it should be... In my mind, you got to meet that with gratitude.
[00:10:34.530] - Brad Flanagan
Absolutely.
[00:10:35.070] - John Berry
Because if you tell me, oh, Brad, you're screwing me here. This is terrible. Well, then if I'm Brad, I'm like, okay, this is a very difficult job, and I've chosen you because I believe you can do it. But if you don't want to do it, then I'll give it to somebody else.
[00:10:50.060] - Brad Flanagan
Well, and that's military. They're constantly in a training environment when we're not in an active operation. So, that teaches or coaches us to almost implant it into automatic habits and then maintain composure when things don't go our way. So, we're not in that when having to choose between fight or flight, we can still maintain a clear thought process. And so, when we go into gratitude as opposed to going into a defensive or a fight or flight type of a mode, we can think much clearly about it. And so, it's fun to engage with the team and encourage that activity, or even I coach them to offer up a question It starts with what instead of why. Because if I say, why did you do that? Versus what result were you hoping to accomplish with that action? It just sets the tone differently. It asks the same question ultimately, but it invokes an emotion that might They give us a better, more thoughtful response versus closed off and automatic response.
[00:12:07.040] - John Berry
Yeah, one leadership lesson I learned, and I am not good at this, but if you practice it, I think it can make you a better leader. But go into every meeting and just ask questions. Just sit, ask the questions, and don't even say anything. Don't give any answers. And what I found is at first, I was thinking, okay, great. The team is going to get more buy-in. They're going to talk more. But what I found was by asking the questions, sometimes they have the same effect. Oh, man, I totally just got chewed out, whatever. And I'm like, I didn't chew anybody out. I just asked them questions. Now, there were some fairly pointed questions because we had to figure out what the problem was, and we really had to refine the issue. But by the time I'm done asking the questions, it's like, oh, man, I just got chewed out in there. Nobody chewed you out. We just asked you some questions. And I think as a leader, in meetings, if you can invite the team to participate and not stifle people with your responses, but then say, okay, what do you think? Does anybody else see this any differently?
[00:13:11.230] - John Berry
Does anybody else have a different opinion on this? Okay, great. And then you start going through your different sections. And usually, if you can get the team to talk, you can solve the problem without you, the leader, jumping in. Now, here's the problem. The problem is it takes three or four times as long. When you know the answer is the leader, it is so hard to not just jump in and say, okay, this is the answer. How do I know that? Because I've seen this problem a thousand times. I already know what's going to happen, and I already know how we're going to fix it. But sometimes as a leader, if you can sit back and just ask the questions and let the team come to the answer, because they come up with the answer, not only do they own it, but they retain it. And if you're always the one telling them, okay, got it. This is the fix; it doesn't really resonate as much. But when they come up with the answer, not only is it going to resonate, and they're going to feel like they own the answer, they're going to retain it.
[00:14:00.240] - John Berry
And the next time they're going...So you don't have to have the same thing happen a thousand times with you solving the problem. It's allowing the team to answer those difficult questions.
[00:14:10.200] - Brad Flanagan
You're basically taking them through a workout because they're forming a new connection in the brain they hadn't yet made before because they always could just depend on you to just tell them what it was. When they have to actually think about it, formulate an answer, it will get easier, I believe, over time because they're then making that connection more frequently, and so it happens a little bit faster.
[00:14:32.350] - John Berry
But that takes discipline.
[00:14:33.860] - Brad Flanagan
It sure does and patience.
[00:14:35.170] - John Berry
As a leader it takes discipline and patience, and you got to be in it for the long haul. Well, let's move to the after-action review. We're going to talk about leadership. This is the abbreviated version, not the whole version you talked about. This is just where we talk about the best examples of leadership you experienced, either in the military or in the civilian world, and the worst examples of leadership.
[00:14:54.060] - Brad Flanagan
Best examples are the ones where they're leading from a place of love. You could tell there's a genuine care, and it's literally just in that position of asking questions, not assuming the circumstances of the individual, because as you, I'm sure, are very aware being in the officer level, is your soldiers come from a vast and diverse background. And so the personal situations, the development, mentally or their maturity levels can be so very different. The ones that led with some grace and love and came from a place of education, they then earned such a gratitude, and I had such an appreciation for them that I would be a better soldier because I just didn't want to let them down. And the worst leadership is the unsafe leader. I had a terrible experience with a first sergeant who just treated everyone who was supposed to be under his authority as if they were his b****, and that's what he would call you is my b****. That really stifled the growth. It's unfortunate that it happens in such immersed environments, that it creates challenges in the head space, which is why they have great support in organizations such as yours, where there's somebody who can help guide them through the resources that the military offers as far as benefits to help correct some of that or at least obtain the compensation to go spend.
[00:16:50.700] - Brad Flanagan
I use my disability compensation to invest in my health because that's what I'm trying to reverse is all the aches and pains and such that were created in the environments that we were put in.
[00:17:01.800] - John Berry
Yeah. And I think that's a couple of great points there. Number one is, if you're the leader, you're the b****. At the end of the day, you're the one that's responsible for keeping the team happy together, motivated. It's not like you own the team. The team owns you. And there is a burden of command. There's a burden of leadership that if you are the leader in your unfortunate situation, there's an enlistment. By law, they can't just desert the first sergeant. They can't just leave. But when leaders create a toxic environment where they treat subordinates that way, the subordinates don't grow, the organization stagnates, and the team fails. But if you, as the leader say, no, these people don't belong to me. I belong to them. I have a duty and obligation to make them better, to train them, to teach them, to lead them, then that's a whole different ball game. And when we have that obligation, that burden is heavy, and you feel it. When you're the leader and you're carrying the ruck and somebody else goes down, you grab their ruck, and you help them. For the first sergeant to behave that way, he'd never make it in the civilian world, right?
[00:18:13.990] - John Berry
But it's unfortunate that in the military, when some individuals rise to that level of authority or power, they see it as, hey, I'm in charge and everybody works for me. But you get in the civilian world, you're the one that's got to pay everybody's paycheck. You're the one that's got to make sure the company stays afloat so that everybody has a job.
[00:18:31.830] - Brad Flanagan
And servant leadership. I mean, that bottom-up approach versus the top-down approach is so powerful, and hopefully, they feel it, right? There's plenty that just don't have the feelings. And so that's why they lead the way they lead. And unfortunately, that destruction eventually becomes apparent. It can only last so long in those kinds of environments.
[00:18:58.760] - John Berry
Yeah. And I like the way you said that you reinvest back in your health because for a lot of us that are a little bit banged up, I found for me that if I stop exercising, it's bad. There are things I can't do before I was injured. I can't do a lot of the heavy lifting, but I can do something. And I found that my injuries, if I do nothing, they actually get worse over time, and I feel worse. And so, there is, I think, sometimes an environment where we can't do what we once did. As leaders, I think we have to lead by example there, too, and say, yeah, that's the reality. There are parts of my body that don't function as well as they used to, but I have to overcome it. That's just another adversity, just like a business owner. There are things that will change in your business. The economy will change. Opportunities will disappear. But that doesn't mean like, okay, I'm just going to stop doing everything. No, you have to develop new muscles, new skills to compensate for what you are going to lose because you're going to lose stuff.
[00:19:54.620] - John Berry
You're going to fail. Stuff is going to fall apart. The things that are working well for you today will not work well tomorrow. What you're building is that resilience. What you're building is that drive, that team. And once you get there, you can fail and you can rebuild. But if you don't build those other muscles around it and understand that these are great working for me today, you may need to develop new skills to meet tomorrow's challenges. And that's what we always see as leaders, and that never ends.
[00:20:23.070] - Brad Flanagan
Yep, that's very true. Just as some of the leadership here was saying earlier is, student of life, student mindset. We're constantly learning, and a disability is an opportunity somewhere else. There's plenty of demonstrations of that where being blind has led to some other thriving area of the life or deaf, whether it's physical, mental. There are so many ways to capitalize on something that often disables people. It enables you somewhere else.
[00:21:02.040] - John Berry
Yeah. I think that's really the key way to look at it is sometimes it's not dwelling on what you can no longer do, but what you can do. And for many of us, if our goal in life is to make a difference, then the question is, well, what can I do with what I have today to help somebody? And unfortunately, not everybody sees the world that way.
[00:21:25.710] - Brad Flanagan
No and that's our job as leaders to try to shift those perspectives.
[00:21:30.510] - John Berry
And I would say that's our job as Veterans to shift that perspective, because Veterans know resilience. We know we got to complete a mission. We've all been trained. The leadership from the greatest fighting force in the history of the world has taught us how to lead. And we have those leadership skills. They do not go away. Some are perishable, but they don't all perish. You have those skills. Use them in your community. Use them to build a business, a nonprofit. Just use them to help somebody, to develop some young person. Share what you've learned. I mean, that's what gives fulfillment in life. That's something that can't be taken away because tomorrow, you could lose your business. The economy changes, something bad happens. But the ability to give back, it never ends. And it's something that you're going to feel good about at the end of the day, at the end of your life. And as Veterans, we have that, and we've earned it. And so, to not give it back, in some ways, almost feels selfish.
[00:22:26.980] - Brad Flanagan
100%. We constantly restrict ourselves, in order, sometimes even just to make other people feel comfortable. And that is to hold back an expectation that we're going to get more is a ridiculous concept, but it's somehow implanted in our subconscious so much that it's like, oh, I got to hold back so I don't make that person feel uncomfortable, or I'm at risk of being a target if I let somebody know I own or have or created this, that, or the other thing. So, if nothing else, you create and develop within yourself. I'll create, not destroy, and everything's happening for us, not to us.
[00:23:10.930] - John Berry
And we lead by example. And so sometimes we want to be humble about things. We don't want to... On the other hand, it is important that you can show someone, yes, if you work hard, you can be successful. Yes, if you are a Veteran, you do have these skills. Let me show you what I've done. Now, am I bragging? No. Maybe it feels like I'm bragging, but at the end of the day, what I'm really trying to do is just say it's possible. I did it. Brad did it. All these people did it. You have the skills. Go out and do it. We want to show that it can be done. We want to lead by example. We want to set the example and say, here's what's possible. Instead of not focusing on what's hard, what's difficult, what might be impossible. And so, leadership by example, I think, is really showing what's possible. And that means going out and accomplishing things. And so, we shouldn't hide those accomplishments. Like you said, sometimes we worry, well, we're going to make people feel bad if they figure out how well we've actually done or what we've achieved.
[00:24:05.110] - John Berry
And look, I'll just tell you, in my organization, we have scoreboards, jumbotrons, where you can see the metrics of who are the top performers, leader boards. Don't be embarrassed by it. And some people do not like accolades. They don't want to receive awards. But I always tell them, this isn't about you. You're getting this award for everybody else. They need to see that we recognize this level of excellence. Someone else needs to see that you've been striving for perfection for years, and that's where this has gotten you. This may mean nothing to you, and it may even be embarrassing to you. But to those junior team members who came here looking for greatness, you are the example of greatness, and we need to show that. And for us not to demonstrate that would be selfish. And so, I hate having that conversation because someone's humbled like, yeah, but it's not about me. It's about the team. And I say, yes, it is about the team. And that's exactly why we need to celebrate your win because those five other team members that were part of it, they're proud of you. It's just like when you had a team member in the military, they get an award.
[00:25:10.080] - John Berry
Everybody already knew they deserve that award. And you're proud of that team member. It's like, yeah. And they're up there and they're getting the medal pinned on. And you're thinking, you know what? I'm proud to have served with that person. And I learned a ton from them. And so, when we win, we do win as a team. But that doesn't mean we remove the individual accolades because there are junior team members who aspire to be what you are or what you've accomplished. They aspire to accomplish what you've accomplished. And if you hold back, they'll never know whether it's possible. But if you can be the example of what's possible, then don't let humility get in the way of that. Now, don't let your big ego get in the way of it and say, I deserve all the credit for this. We just recently, a good friend of mine made a great hire from a large organization. And the reason why she got the opportunity to hire this person is because the leader in that organization took credit for everything and never gave credit to the team. Because when I recognize you, I know that you're going to give credit to your team, because that's what true leaders do.
[00:26:11.200] - John Berry
They understand that there's never one person that wins. Everything is a team effort. And it might have been your parents who raised you. It might have been the team you were on. It might be your spouse. But there's always someone who is helping you. And if you don't want to receive that award or accolade, they're never going to know what effect they had.
[00:26:26.940] - Brad Flanagan
Any opportunity to inspire. And it's also for a Veteran that wants to start their own business, but they're holding themselves back because they think, oh, I got to plan it out, or I'm not qualified. I haven't done this experience. It's being able to reflect back on those accomplishments and know that there's an experience, there's some knowledge that you possess that someone is without, and they're hurting because of it. And so, by taking action, you have the ability to actually impact them for the better. It's one of the best ways to work on overcoming that negative self-talk or that procrastination that we automatically revert to because we're just not sure we have what it takes to execute.
[00:27:14.550] - John Berry
Brad, where can Veterans who are in the real estate space or all the services related to real estate, how can they get a hold of you? Now, it'll be in the show notes, but just for our listeners, what's the best way to get a hold of Brad Flanagan and learn more about him?
[00:27:26.290] - Brad Flanagan
Yeah, I'm old, so I'm on that good old Facebook. That's probably the number one place to connect. And that's where I pinned my proud moment of you putting me out on the floor at the Creighton game, where it was a little bit embarrassing to hold my hand up in front of thousands and wave. But it was very inspiring for me, and I received it well. So, I appreciate you doing that, not only for me, but for all the other Veterans in our community.
[00:27:54.820] - John Berry
Well, once again, this comes back to this. People don't like to get out there in front, but how am I going to show those young students, those young college students, this is what a hero is. This isn't somebody wearing a jersey. It's someone who wore the uniform. And then we're also celebrating all those Veterans in the stands who served, who think that we forgot about their service. We got a lot of Vietnam Veterans at these games, too, who didn't get that welcome home. And to be able to say, showcase, this is a combat Veteran who came back, who's now thriving in our community. We need to celebrate it. It's not just about Brad Flanagan. It's about the entire community. And so, yeah, you got to take one for the team. You got to lead by example, and you got to stand up there and take that standing ovation because it's not about Brad Flanagan. It's about our community. Thank you for joining us today on Veteran Led, where we pursue our mission of promoting Veteran leadership in business, strengthening the Veteran community, and getting Veterans all of the benefits that they earned. If you know a leader who should be on the Veteran Led podcast, report to our online community by searching at Veteran Led on your favorite social channels and posting in the comments.
[00:29:08.640] - John Berry
We want to hear how your military challenges prepared you to lead your industry or community, and we will let the world know. And of course, hit subscribe and join me next time on Veteran Led.