Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Tales from the PROS is hosted by Michael Georgiou, Co-Founder, and Eric Lawrence, Director of Growth at Imaginovation, an award-winning app and software development company. Each episode dives into honest, unscripted conversations, hard-earned lessons, and educational insight into how to help bridge the gap between technology and people.
If you’re a founder, exec, or innovator trying to navigate the tech world without getting burned, this podcast is your no-BS roadmap. Through real talk, personal stories, and insights from the front lines, you’ll pick up smarter ways to build software, steer clear of common mistakes, and choose the right partners in a crowded, often confusing space.
Whether you’re scaling a startup, driving digital change at a larger company, or just love keeping up with tech innovation, Tales from the PROS brings you straight-shooting advice and inspiration without the fluff.
Michael Georgiou (00:43)
Hey everyone, welcome back to Tales from the Pros podcast by Imaginovation I'm your host, Michael Georgiou, joined by my co-host and director of growth, Eric Lawrence. Today we're diving into a topic that's become a serious driver of product success. It's called gamification and why it's no longer just a feature, but a full-on strategy. To help us unpack it, we're joined by someone who's been leading product innovation from the inside, my business partner and Imaginovation co-founder, Pete Peranzo.
Pete's led some of our most impactful client builds using gamification as a core engagement engine. We're excited to break down what it looks like in practice and how product teams can apply it with intention to drive growth, adoption, and long-term value. Thanks everyone for being here. What's up, Pete, man? How you doing? Hey, Eric. Good. Good, good. Thanks for being on here, man. I you're busy always doing a bunch of different things.
Pete Peranzo (01:30)
What's up? How's it going?
Absolutely, thanks for having me.
Michael Georgiou (01:41)
Pete, with this episode, we've obviously wanted to get into a really cool topic that has to do with really the
emerging technologies and, you know, technologies that, that are really like, really making an impact right now and, and, are even just continuously growing and they're innovating like crazy. And we know gamification and we thought, you know what, Pete's the perfect person to have internally on this episode to help us talk about that and kind of more of a, technical and even a business perspective as well. So I'll kind of let, let Eric take the lead on,
the first couple questions, but yeah, we're excited to kind of get into it.
Pete Peranzo (02:19)
Yeah,
I love gamification as you know.
Michael Georgiou (02:23)
Yes, yeah, I know, know. Yeah, you're the best at it, man.
Eric Lawrence (02:27)
Yeah. And I, I know like just being on the front line, speaking with people when they want to build apps, they're trying to think of ways to make the app stickier to keep users and to keep people engaged with it. So I know that's probably like the primary thing that we're looking to do with gamification.
So Pete, I want to ask you just as an opening question, you know, I feel like most teams think gamification means adding points and badges or, you know, a leaderboard, but where do you see teams go wrong with their approach? And just kind of a second part of that, what does a truly strategic implementation look like?
Pete Peranzo (03:04)
Yeah, so there's a lot of teams and companies that take an existing product and just slap the default stuff, like you said, points, badges, leaderboards, onto their product. And it's just not cohesive. So they create this kind of what I call a bad implementation of gamification. gamification is great when it's implemented correctly, but when it's not implemented correctly, you can have negative effects. And I'll give you an example.
I think it was about 10 years ago, Microsoft, have their internal CRM, Microsoft Dynamics. And they came out, yeah, they came out with this gamification layer on top of their product. It was called Microsoft Dynamics Gamification. And what happened was all their internal employees started boosting. They were entering dummy data, they were logging in, logging out, logging in, logging out to get up the leaderboards.
and acquire these badges and stuff like that. So for that case, actually lowered the productivity. They implemented gamification to increase productivity and actually decrease productivity. So if you don't do it correctly, it can have negative impacts. A lot of people don't realize that.
Michael Georgiou (04:15)
Crazy.
Eric Lawrence (04:15)
Do you ever see like systems out there apps that just add gamification for no point? Because I feel like that would be something that would be pretty common. Like imagine if Netflix created a leaderboard. It just wouldn't make sense.
Michael Georgiou (04:28)
Hmm.
Pete Peranzo (04:30)
Yeah, yeah, you know, if in my opinion, everything could be gamified if it's done correctly. Like, for example, with Netflix, I wouldn't mind competing with some of my buddies and or at least seeing like where I stand in the rankings. I know my wife would be probably number one in shows binged. Right. But, you know, if in my opinion, if if you apply gamification correctly and you look at the actual like user behavior of the system.
Michael Georgiou (04:48)
Yeah.
Pete Peranzo (04:57)
and you figure out what you're trying to accomplish with gamification, then it could be applied anywhere.
Eric Lawrence (05:03)
Hmm. That's interesting. And actually around like a behavior architecture. like if we, if we think of gamification as a behavior architecture, what would you say two to three user behaviors that are like most critical to design for and, and how would you make sure that they perfectly align with business goals?
Pete Peranzo (05:23)
Yeah, so for me, the number one thing that any system can gamify that would most of the time, 99 % of the time be useful is the onboarding experience. It's people's first impression of your system. Everyone's kind of forced to go through it. It's your chance to earn that first impression rose. People love games, right? So if you have a of a gamification aspect, you're kind of going to increase retention immediately.
One company that does it great is Duolingo. ⁓ I know there's some metrics out there, but they really dug into their onboarding experience. by beefing it up, they increased their seven-day user length by 20%. And that's significant for them. It's a big company. ⁓ And even with MagicTask, which is our internal system,
Michael Georgiou (05:53)
Yeah.
yeah.
Pete Peranzo (06:14)
We were using like JIRA, Basecamp, Trello, Asana, we used all the tools and we found that no one was really engaging with it. They didn't like using those systems. So when we built Magic Task and gamified it, we saw close to, I don't know, was like 366%, close to 400 % increase in the usage, engagement and... Yeah, as we keep adding features and stuff, it just gets better and better.
Michael Georgiou (06:39)
Yeah.
And Pete, a quick question. I guess like sometimes it's funny. I wasn't sure if we should ask this question or not, but I think the audience will really appreciate it. One thing I always wanted to know, like when you think about gamification and you know, sometimes when a client or a potential client is looking to add gamification into an app or even to just build a gamified product, they're like, hey, I want a game. It's kind of different, right? Cause I know,
know, gamification obviously includes game kind of gamified like game like elements, but is it it's it's kind of quite different, right? In a sense.
Pete Peranzo (07:14)
Yeah,
it's two different things, right? So gamification is a layer on top of a kind of a system, right, where you introduce some aspects of it. But, you know, sometimes you can turn a system into a game almost. You know, there's a fine layer there. If you do it really, really good, you can almost make a boring system become a game. And that's kind of like what we're trying to accomplish with Magic Task. And, you know, if you really immerse yourself in
the aspects of a game and you have the elements that make things fun, at some point the user can't differentiate between gamification and a game. And that's when it's really done perfectly.
Michael Georgiou (07:54)
Yeah. And can you share like any sort of story just from your experience that gamification wasn't really just fun. wasn't only fun. was actually like a kind of, it was like a, it had like a metric of retention, lifetime value, or onboarding completion. It was more kind of focused on just improving the app, but it wasn't really just about being fun, you know?
Pete Peranzo (08:18)
Yeah.
Yeah, so you guys have heard of Salesforce, right? Obviously. So Salesforce implemented a tool for their onboarding of their new salespeople, for salespeople for their company. I think it was called something like Trailhead or something like this. This is like years ago.
Michael Georgiou (08:23)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Is this the one we use?
We use this, right? Because we use Salesforce for a little bit, remember? then we, okay. I see, okay, got it. Got it, got it.
Pete Peranzo (08:40)
No, no, no, no, this is for their internal people. It's internal to Salesforce. This wasn't like external.
And they were having problems with people completing the training. No one likes doing training, right? I I coached my son's soccer team and I had to go through like an hour of like this, like, you know, ethics training. And it was the most boring thing I've ever done in my life. So what they did is they basically took gamification, applied it to like some boring training like that. And they saw a 500 % increase in engagement, which
Michael Georgiou (08:51)
Yeah.
Pete Peranzo (09:09)
ultimately led to shorter training times which got their salespeople into the field earlier which theoretically saved them money and increased revenue for the company.
Yeah, it's pretty powerful how gamification can really transform a company if applied in the right areas and also done correctly. You can't, like you said, like I think you guys asked me before, can't just slap it on there. It really has to be well thought out.
Eric Lawrence (09:32)
Yeah. You know what that reminds me of there? There's a video out there where there's somebody in one of those research rooms where they're observing them and they have them sitting in front of a TV. And on the one hand, they start showing them like a math video and you could see like they're starting to squirm around, move, not pay attention. And then when they switch it over to star Wars, the person just sits there for like an hour uninterrupted, like not moving at all. And it's, it's a matter of like, can, that gamification layer like what
Michael Georgiou (09:33)
Strategic. Yeah.
Yeah
Eric Lawrence (10:01)
Salesforce did engage that part of the brain that can force, you know, force you away from sort of that ADD like tendency.
Pete Peranzo (10:10)
Exactly. Yeah, it's funny you say that, you know, my first job out of college, I was actually building up, it was an eye tracking device where researchers would apply this tool to see for infants and babies what kind of held their attention and what made them mad and whatnot. there's a lot of psychology behind gamification. you know, if you really look deep into it, like the dopamine effect is like, you know, if you can hit hit the little dopamine reactors and get people rewarded, get them a sense of achievement.
and keep them coming back, that's really the power of it.
Michael Georgiou (10:42)
retention, really increasing the retention, the kind of the usability because it's crazy, man. Like how many systems and software have we used, tools that we've used? mean, ⁓ thousands, thousands, even me kind of not being technical. Like I've used so many freaking systems and a lot of them, yeah, you know, many of them have good purposes and stuff and some of them are just horrible and some are amazing. But I've used so many boring systems, man. It's just like you don't
Pete Peranzo (10:52)
Thousands, thousands, yeah.
Michael Georgiou (11:11)
It just kind of, they get very clunky and it's just very easy to just drop off and not stay in the system.
Pete Peranzo (11:19)
Exactly. Yeah.
Eric Lawrence (11:20)
Yeah, Pete, I'm interested to get your take. could see with onboarding sequences and downloading downloading an app for the first time. Like gamification can hold somebody's attention for a little bit, but how would you say you could use gamification to keep somebody engaged for years or months at end?
Pete Peranzo (11:41)
Yeah, so there's this book. It's called Inspired by Marty Kagan. And we basically, I don't know if you guys know this, but we basically force all of our engineers, project managers, everyone except for you guys pretty much, to read this book when they join the company. And in there, it really touches on what to do to inspire.
Michael Georgiou (11:50)
Yeah, I've heard of, yep.
Pete Peranzo (12:07)
people and how to keep them coming back and one of the key points that that i take took away from that book is incremental updates right so if you have a even if you have a great gamification system and you guys play games right i know like world of warcraft all those games you'll see that like every month or every two months they put out these patches and they have some updates right and they'll even have like a coming what's coming next you know so you can kind of stay excited so small incremental updates
Is the answer to your question Eric and it's it's perfect because people stay engaged. They have what they have now. They can see what's coming in the future. And then another kind of like side note to that is Azure building these systems as a company. You don't want to release too much at once. First off, you set the bar way too high for yourself, right? So if you're putting out these massive patches, people are going to get accustomed to that. And then if your next patch isn't as big.
then they're going to be unhappy. Also, as you're doing these small incremental updates, people are just, it's like dangling the carrot, right? They eat, and then there's another one right there. So keeps them walking forward like me on this treadmill. I'm chasing the carrot, right? So I hope that answers your question, but you guys should definitely read that book, by the way. It's really good. Yeah.
Michael Georgiou (13:16)
Yeah
inspired. Yep
Eric Lawrence (13:22)
Yeah.
Yeah. And what you say, makes sense because I know my wife's two biggest complaints are usually the day that she has to get a new cell phone or like when windows was dropping a new operating system, because you have to be, if it's too much and you're having to relearn everything, it can be very frustrating.
Michael Georgiou (13:23)
and quick
Yeah.
And what's pretty cool as well, yeah, no, Pete, that's a great point, man, because I forgot the name of this product. man, I forgot. I forgot the name of it, but there was this system I saw advertised. It was probably on LinkedIn. And they were talking about how the system basically to keep users engaged, they used gamification with those incremental updates where they vote on the features.
Pete Peranzo (13:41)
Exactly.
Mm-hmm.
Michael Georgiou (14:05)
They basically
have like these leader boards of which ones have like the best ideas that are actually like kind of pragmatic, but creative as well. And they're, realistic to actually be implemented in the system, not like stupid ideas. So, and you'll see there's some, there's like, there was like a leader board of like thousands of people. And some people would just were at the top of the list and they had like so many points and they would get like rewards and all that kind of stuff. So.
Pete Peranzo (14:08)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yep.
Yeah.
Michael Georgiou (14:29)
It's probably a really
amazing way to keep to get them like just interested in using it and and you know adopting it.
Pete Peranzo (14:36)
Yeah, some
systems too, Mike, they'll actually gamify their system and give you points that you can apply to those feature requests. So the more you're actually using the system, the more power you have to upvote the feature request. And I forgot the name of the product, but there's actually kind of like a de facto standard plugin where you can just kind of integrate it into your SaaS. And it creates that feature list where people can upload and whatnot. I'll send it to you after so you can take a look at it. It's pretty cool.
Michael Georgiou (14:48)
Wow.
That's cool,
yeah.
Pete Peranzo (15:06)
Yeah,
we're actually thinking about implementing that as well.
Eric Lawrence (15:09)
Hmm. And actually on the topic of making those incremental changes, Pete, what would you say, like, how should teams think about gamification differently if they're, you know, adding to an existing product incrementally, or if they're just starting from scratch?
Michael Georgiou (15:09)
That's pretty cool.
Pete Peranzo (15:26)
Yeah, so that's a good question. So people that have existing systems, they have a treasure chest of information. So the data is there. They have maybe years, maybe tens of years of data. And they really can just pinpoint where gamification belongs, how they can gamify it, what their user behavior is. They have all the analytics they need. If they implement it poorly, it's on them. It's their fault.
Brand new systems, it's a little bit more difficult. My advice to people starting new systems without gamification is create your system without gamification first, build it up a little bit, then get some data. If your system's really a good candidate for initial gamification, build up your first 100 happy customers, tap into their brains, pull them, build it for them.
Michael Georgiou (16:02)
Mmm.
Pete Peranzo (16:17)
So those are really the main differences between an existing system and a brand new system.
Eric Lawrence (16:22)
And Pete, do you say that because to build gamification takes time and rather than try to get everything right out of the gate, you want to let like the users inform you on it?
Pete Peranzo (16:34)
No, good gamification does take a little bit of time, but time isn't the main factor. It goes back to one of your first questions. You can't just slap points, a leaderboard, and whatever badges into a system, and it becomes good. You have to know where to put it. And maybe badges and leaderboards don't make sense in your system. So maybe you have to get a little bit creative. So in order to do that, you need a set of data to look at and analyze and figure out what is your best architecture for the gamified system.
Eric Lawrence (17:02)
Hmm. So it wouldn't necessarily be a matter of, because I know sometimes people when they're coming up with an idea, they use another app for inspiration where they say, Hey, I've seen this work over on that side. Are you saying it'd be wrong to make that assumption? Even though you feel like, Hey, I've seen enough examples of gamification being used in this way that I feel like it's going to be a no brainer.
Pete Peranzo (17:11)
Right.
Exactly.
Michael Georgiou (17:20)
Thank
Pete Peranzo (17:21)
Yeah.
So it depends, know, gamification, good gamification could theoretically be copied and applied to most systems and you probably are going to see a boost, you know, in your productivity or whatever you're trying to accomplish. like go back and take the example of Microsoft Dynamics, right? They tried to do that and it actually caused problems. So, you know, you need to, you need to assess the situation and it's always better, you guys know this, it's always better to build a custom solution than just use an out of the box solution.
Michael Georgiou (17:46)
Wow.
Yeah, yeah, I know. Yeah, this is why, yeah, exactly, man. This is why I think this episode is great. I think people are gonna love it. it's, you think about it, gamification is really, it's strategic. It's not just something that you, like you said, you don't just dump this feature in a system just expecting it to work and just say, hey, let's just drop a leaderboard in some random system. You know what I mean? Because it sounds cool or because our...
Eric Lawrence (17:55)
Fair.
Michael Georgiou (18:19)
our customers might like it or the users might like it. gotta really plan it out and do it properly.
Pete Peranzo (18:25)
Yeah, or hire a company like us to plan it out for you, right?
Michael Georgiou (18:27)
Exactly. Yes.
Yeah. And Pete, what do you think, man, in the future? Talk about emerging technologies and obviously gamification has kind of been around for a little bit now, but it's continuously innovating. I think just the way user behavior is now with systems, AI, I mean, it's crazy kind of what's going on right now. AI is kind of taking over. But where do you think gamification
in the next couple of years plays a role in SaaS and digital products. And yeah.
Pete Peranzo (18:59)
Yeah, yeah, so you guys know, man, the workforce is changing, right? The boomers are dying or retiring. I know my dad and your dad, right, they retired a couple years ago. So you have this new fresh wave of the workforce, millennials, Gen Z, pretty soon Gen Alpha will be coming up. these guys, this workforce or this population of people,
They're subjected to games. They all are gamers. A high percentage of them, especially compared to the previous workforce. So they're going to come to expect these things in their systems. And they're going to be the ones choosing the tools soon. So as they move up the corporate ladders and create their own businesses, they'll have autonomy on what to use in their corporations and where they work.
Companies that are implementing gamification now, I would say, are getting in early. They're ahead of the curve. And they're going to be able to attract and retain the new workforce, which essentially is gamers.
Michael Georgiou (20:01)
And how do you think AI plays into all this? AI is just everywhere. It's being embedded everywhere. obviously, it's the same thing in a sense, right? Where it's like artificial intelligence needs to be like, if you're going to include AI in an existing system, for example, or a new system, it needs to be done carefully, too. It can't just say, hey, I want AI.
Pete Peranzo (20:10)
Yeah.
Yeah, AI is a totally different subject, Mike. I I can sit here and talk for a long time about AI. But yeah, for gamification, I think, like I said, the workforce is going to come to expect that. And the tools that have it built in are going to stand out. And I think every system is going to have AI. They're going to have to, or they're not going to be a system. So when you're choosing between a system with AI and no gamification,
Michael Georgiou (20:27)
Yeah.
Pete Peranzo (20:50)
and a system with AI and gamification, and it's implemented correctly, this new workforce of millennials in Gen Z and Gen Alpha are going to always choose the gamified version.
Michael Georgiou (21:00)
Yeah, oh yeah, I know, I agree. Yeah, I mean, if we look at, you know, we look at like the next 10 to 20 years in the future, you know, how do you see, Pete, like, how do you see gamification shaping just the overall design of systems, you know, like from workplaces to education to just regular everyday life? Where do you see that going?
Eric Lawrence (21:02)
Yeah.
Pete Peranzo (21:20)
Yeah.
So a lot of people have forgot that the word metaverse and that was a big buzzword two or three years ago and it's funny that
Michael Georgiou (21:33)
Me and you were talking
about this a couple of weeks ago. I was like, what happened to Metaverse? Just disappeared.
Pete Peranzo (21:37)
It's funny, people
Eric Lawrence (21:37)
Isn't
it dead and in the ground?
Pete Peranzo (21:39)
forget that, you know, Facebook renamed themselves to Meta. And, you know, it's kind of like Star Wars, right? Do you guys know why George Lucas created Star Wars 4 first?
Michael Georgiou (21:42)
Yeah.
.
Probably you guys doing it more than me.
Eric Lawrence (21:52)
No?
Pete Peranzo (21:54)
It's
because the technology wasn't able to do what needed to be done for episode one. So he basically said, hey, I got to wait 30 years for the technology to catch up. And that's really what's happening with the metaverse. I think it was too early. So at some point in the next 10 to 20, 30 years, think essentially what's going to happen is these technologies, AR, VR are going to mature. AI is going to really help.
Michael Georgiou (22:00)
Hmm.
Pete Peranzo (22:20)
the production of that. And then you've got nanotechnology as well. So I think we're going to be living in a gamified layer. Everything's going to be gamified. And you could be walking down the street. You can do something, earn points. And a nanobot's going to come and create a ration, a candy ration for you. And you can eat it. We're going to be in 20 to 30 years. It's going to be another reality, essentially.
Michael Georgiou (22:35)
Mm-hmm.
Eric Lawrence (22:46)
Kind of like a ready player one scenario. That's that's pretty freaky and just to push back a little bit on that because. To apply it everywhere, I have to imagine there's going to be some industries that like you gotta read the room right? Would would there be a place where gamification is acceptable in like the financial banking space or like ⁓ better help or you know, telemedicine?
Pete Peranzo (22:49)
Exactly, yeah.
Michael Georgiou (23:05)
Ahem.
Pete Peranzo (23:08)
Well, we're-
Michael Georgiou (23:10)
Hmm.
Eric Lawrence (23:13)
Is it, do you feel like there are ever places where it's just like, got to read the room. It's not appropriate to add gamification to this.
Pete Peranzo (23:20)
Well,
remember, your room is going to be different than Mike's and mine. So these technologies are going to be so personalized that maybe you want it or maybe yours turns off when you go into a special setting. But mine stays on because I like it. So and you don't you you're not even going to need to like turn it on or off. It's going to be smart enough to, you know, read your brain potentially and and turn it on and off or just know your habits and stuff like that. So.
Michael Georgiou (23:46)
Wow.
Pete Peranzo (23:48)
Yeah, you know, I think what we're talking about here, it's almost uncomprehensible what we're going to see in the next 20 to 30 years as far as the gamification layer on top of the current reality.
Michael Georgiou (23:59)
Dude, that's spot on. I love what you said about the personalization. You think about it just for like a medical, a telehealth app, for example, right? I think moving forward in the future, it's gonna get so advanced that it's gonna know like, for me, my age, what kind of my interests are, my needs, and it might add some sort of like...
Gamified layer for example that because it's personalized to me So that's gonna allow me to enjoy the system better than someone that's like 75 years old You know what I mean?
Pete Peranzo (24:35)
Yeah, I like
the example of like just our children, Like every child learns and likes different things. So like if you just look at their kind of educational experience and it's super personalized, it's going to really increase the rate of our civilization and the way that we retain and learn new information.
Michael Georgiou (24:39)
Yeah.
Eric Lawrence (24:53)
I think we're already seeing that amongst our clients as well. There are a few educational platforms that we're building that, you know, for K through five or K through 12 that are gamified to keep the kids engaged.
Michael Georgiou (24:54)
That's awesome.
Pete Peranzo (25:07)
Yeah, it's pretty cool and it's great that we're part of it. We're on the forefront of technology. We're very lucky.
Eric Lawrence (25:15)
Well, Pete, since we have you here, this is kind of a tradition for our podcast. We're sponsored by Magic Task and what better way than to have the grandfather of Magic Task himself here. But really to the listeners here, a big reason why Magic Task is the sponsor is at the end of the day, if you're looking for ways to be incentivized, to feel motivated, to get things done, Magic Task is a simplified and gamified platform.
Michael Georgiou (25:15)
Yeah, that's cool, man.
Pete Peranzo (25:19)
Okay.
Okay.
Michael Georgiou (25:27)
Yeah.
Eric Lawrence (25:43)
When I say that you haven't seen anything yet, when it comes to the platform, there are big, big things that I know Pete and the team have planned for Magic Task in the coming years to make it even more gamified, even more engaging than where it is right now. But as is, go check it out. You can go to magictask.io and see for yourself because it's available on desktop and mobile. There's no gamification layer on the mobile version, but on desktop, it's everything that you need to stay.
organized to stay on track and to have fun.
Michael Georgiou (26:13)
And also Pete is a great person to speak with about the MagicTask system as well. And just kind of giving demos. And like I said, he's kind of the visionary, kind of the grandfather of that product. yeah, definitely hit him up and he would love to show you the system. And just to kind of conclude here guys, like, I mean, this whole episode, right? We thought it was gonna be very valuable to the audience.
Just explaining that gamification isn't really just a UX layer or a feature that you just include in an existing or a new app. It's a really powerful strategic tool, and there are a lot of amazing behavioral traits and psychology behind it. So whether you're building SaaS or internal platforms, launching something entirely new, it's really worth asking, how are we designing for sustained engagement and not just one-time usage?
So when done right, gamification, it's not just about gimmicks, right? It's about motivating action. It's about guiding behavior and creating products people want to keep coming back to. So this is really what this is about. And yeah, just awesome for Pete to be here. Thanks, man.
Pete Peranzo (27:23)
Yeah, thanks for having me guys.
Michael Georgiou (27:25)
Yeah, and Eric, thank you as well. And yeah, we appreciate everyone tuning in and listening. until next time, Michael Georgiou from Tales from the PROS and Eric Lawrence and Pete Peranzo Thank you, everyone. Take care.
Pete Peranzo (27:38)
Take care, guys.