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The Public Sector Executive Podcast is the new podcast bringing you closer to the public sector leaders in the UK. Covering everything from the environment to the economy to transport, our podcast will bring you the latest news, views and insight from the people responsible for shaping the country's future.
Episode 47 1.mp3
Transcript
The way that kind of Rishi Sunak decides to then sort of obliterate the plans we found was completely and utterly unacceptable. I think one of the things that always strikes me and frankly scared me is when you look at some of the predicted flood maps for the globe, if we don't keep global temperature increases below 2°. In 30 years time, the flood risk could be huge to coastal Britain and here in Liverpool as a River City as a coastal city region, we are significantly. Impacted by that? It would be great to have something like a royal Commission into local government finance to actually look at it in a a different way than the traditional political football.
This is the public Sector Executive Podcast bringing you views, insight and conversation from leaders across the public sector. Presented by Dan Ben.
In this absurd eye travelled to the historic city of Liverpool to meet up with Liam Robinson, leader of the City Council. I began by asking me about the homelessness crisis and the work being done to tackle homelessness in the city.
I think from our perspective, we're very conscious that there's a housing and homelessness crisis right across the whole of the UK and it's particularly acute here in Liverpool. What we've seen over the past three years is we've gone from having spent 1/4 of £1,000,000 a year on homelessness to it being now almost 19. £1,000,000 because of the huge kind of pressure of demand that we're seeing. So we wrote to Michael Gove to request additional resources. To deal with. Pressure, when we actually kind of look into why that's happened, a lot of what we find in actually is it's because of the state of the economy. Because of some of the things that the government's done that has meant interest rates have spiralled, a lot of private landlords have seen their own buy-to-let mortgages go up significantly, and they've sought to pass that on to tenants who can't afford the rent increases. That's LED some people leaving their tendencies, but also a lot of people actually kind of been served with section 21. No fault evictions. So that's led to those huge kind of pressures in the system. The way that we want to tackle that is obviously we would argue that we need significant extra resources, but that's not unique to Liverpool. I think there's lots of kind of big local authorities that that need the same, but there's lots of different ways that we want to work with the private rented sector as part of the ways of addressing that. So looking at the way that kind of working with some of the good quality private. Landlords. We might be able to kind of block book some of their properties to actually bring those into the temporary accommodation and homelessness. Agenda working with Steve Rotherham and the Combined Authority would like to do a lot more housing first, which has worked really well as an anti-homelessness kind of policy within the city region and equally as well we want to get building more good quality affordable social houses right across the city, particularly on brownfield sites. Which is something we do know the current government actually, you know, is very much one of the things they're focusing on as well. So from our perspective, we want to address this and lots of things we're starting to do to address it, but because it's a national crisis, you actually need some national intervention and national fund. Thing that can back that up, because what worries us greatly and maybe maybe final points on this sort of section really. Is that we're in the autumn. How worse is this going to get when we get into the proper winter where we have the real difficulties of the change of kind of weather and it gets down to frosty nights and even?
Worse, you mentioned there that you want to build good quality social housing. What work are you doing? To help people in the community that are in affordable and social housing to improve their standards, things like social landlords.
Well, there's a number of things that we are doing. Obviously, we work really closely with all of our kind of RSL's and housing associations across the city and looking at how we kind of continue that partnership, particularly on building. Brand new in the city, I think from our perspective though, because we've got a huge private rented market here. Well, thankfully, we've been able to get our landlord licencing scheme back up and running again and that started to have some real sort of results, but from our perspective, we think this is a a really important area where the policy and the power should just be devolved to us. The fact that we've had to kind of jump through hoops of fire with the government to get back a reduced. Private Landlord Licencing scheme compared to the City Wide Scheme we had in in in place in the past, we actually think this is something that all local authorities should have the devolved power to do what they feel right for. The city that obviously kind of features in some of the trailblazer devolution deals for Greater Manchester and West Midlands, but it's in our view it should be something that actually we can crack on with here in Liverpool and every Council should have the ability to do that as well to actually really kind of get under the skin of poor standards in the private rented sector where so many kind of our residents. Are living and will continue to live because the private rented sector will always play an important role in cities like Liverpool.
You mentioned devolution there and more power for local governments to do what they need to do and to move away from housing and to transport. There's a massive conversation around transport already and local decisions being made. HS2 is one of those massive things that the power was taken away from local leaders. It was promised and obviously we know what's happened with the northern leg of HS2. How has that impacted Liverpool as a city and you as a Council? OK, well I.
Think first and foremost here in Liverpool and across the city region, we've always been really strong. Supporters of HS2, but also that WE network that's been billed as as Northern Powerhouse rail from our perspective. And you gotta remember that almost 200 years ago we were the birthplace of the passenger railway with what could have happened at Edge Hill Station with the Liverpool and. The railway. So from our perspective, we actually see this as national infrastructure renewal providing the country with the infrastructure and crucially the capacity that it needs to sort of sustainably transport people and goods around the country. That's why we were all strong supporters of both HS2 and Northern Powerhouse Rail. I think we've found the process predominantly over the past, particularly past six to seven years, very, very frustrating with the way that. Kind of. The north of England, the particularly big cities like Liverpool haven't been equal partners in the conversation, the planning and the delivery of that and the way that kind of rising that decides then sort of obliterates the plans we found was completely and utterly unacceptable. Obviously, we've got to work through what actually the action of. Which has two means, because what does it mean for the release of the land? What does it also mean with things like the hybrid bills that have already gone through Parliament and the legal? Process I think from our perspective though on the north-south connections, it's still vital that there is some form of answer to that. If it's not HS2 then what is the right capacity? The reason I'll say that is the port of Liverpool, which is technically just outside of the the boundary of Liverpool City Council but is. A huge economic asset for our city, for our region, but for the whole of the UK is the main deep water port for the West of the British mainland. It actually kind of takes in about 45% of all of our goods from North America for, as one example, if you look at traffic on the M6. Motorway about 6 to 7% of all traffic on the M6 motorways directly linked to the operation of the port of Liverpool, so if you want to sort of deal with sustainable transport of goods, you've got to have an answer for north-south capacity on the rail network equally as well. We need to have those kind of West East. Links and all the work we've been planning on was actually kind of a new line from Liverpool linking onto HS2 to use HS2 infrastructure into Manchester and beyond. The fact that there's big question marks against all of that is is frankly unacceptable because the potential. Of getting Liverpool to Manchester in under half an hour and then potentially beyond to places like Leeds in less than an hour. Yeah, for that end to end journey. It's huge for the economy of the north of England and the fact that we've been kind of knocked back to this situation that we are is completely and utterly unacceptable. Obviously a lot of work that I'm doing with Steve. Rotherham and and we're doing right across the north of England of how we can get that back on track. But being very honest with you, I don't think we'll get the right answer and right solution until we.
Get a change of government. You talk about working with Steve Rotherham and improving the more local transport links as well. How important is it that those decisions are made by people like you and Steve Rotherham and the really local leaders, and not just someone sat in an office in London?
I think that the best example is look at London because London never lost the local power to control and decide it's it's local transport. That's been one of London's real sort of success stories, and particularly how it's been able to strengthen its economy. Those powers, particularly over buses, for example, but also kind of how you deal with local rail networks, should never have been taken away from big cities in the north or any actual location. I think from our perspective, we can point to a really strong. Success story with Merseyrail, since that was devolved to the city. The wider region almost 20 years ago, that's one of many reasons why it's the most successful local rail network in this country and we know we'll do exactly the same. We're booked franchising and the ability to have something that's properly integrated with the different modes, rail, bus, also the Mersey Ferries as well will actually give people a much better public transport network. That will allow us to strengthen our economy, will allow people to get to more opportunity, be that education, be that. Employment and but also it's a really important way in terms of how we address the climate emergency and the air quality crisis that we do have significantly in Liverpool, but isn't unique to Liverpool. You know it's that local power to decide these kind of definably local services that every part of the country should have. Because actually if we went abroad. This would be a bit of a no brainer conversation. Very, very few parts of you know the kind of developed Western European cities ever did. Things like deregulate buses, for example.
To move away. From major public transport links and you mentioned kind of the air quality and things. Like that, active travel is a big issue. At the minute it's a big target and priority for a lot in in local government. How important is it that active travel is done properly and what work are you doing in Liverpool to kind of help bring in active travel more?
I think that's again a brilliant question because it's not just about the climate. Emergency and the air quality crisis. It's also about the obesity and and health disparities that we've got here in Liverpool and and other sort of similar cities across the. Country I think from our perspective that's why active travels really key. So there's a lot of high quality cycling infrastructure. We're starting to roll out across the city. Some of that is literally outside this building. You'll be able to see when you when you came in, we're obviously kind of rolling out more of that. We're also keen to look at how we roll out even more school. Streets we already have some in this the city, but actually our target is to do at least another 50 over the next four years. And and the team are working through. Those plants we're bringing bus lines back in and bus priority measures, which obviously can be shared with cyclists as part of that as well. But it's really keen agenda that we want to move forward on. I think we're also really keen to innovate as well. I think one of the things that we're very proud of is we've got one of the most successful E scooter trials, not just in the country. But actually in the whole of Europe, if you look at by usage, if you break it down almost 1/5 of the city's population has tried an E scooter. Now it tends to be from much younger age demographics, but something that I thought would be a bit of a bijou pilot has become. More mainstream than was the case, and because it's been managed closely, it's not to say that it hasn't had some hiccups and sort of elements where we've had to kind of tinker with it. But I think it's been much more successful than other pilots and other places where it's been seen kind of to be much more controversial. So from our perspective, we think. All of those things are absolutely vital and we want to keep on innovating.
Absolutely you do, right. Innovation is so crucial at the minute. It always will. Be, but especially at the minute with with things like NET 0. As well, which I want to touch on as well. What work are you doing with net zero and how much of A priority are you wanting to make achieving carbon neutrality?
At the end of the day, it doesn't just need to be a priority, it's it's an existential issue. It needs to be something. All of us. Deliver upon I think one of the things that always strikes me and frankly scared me. Is when you look at some of the predicted flood maps for the globe. If we don't keep global temperature increases below 2°. In 30 years time, the flood risk could be huge to coastal Britain and here in Liverpool as a River City as a coastal city region, we are significantly impacted by that. The River Mersey would break its banks, potentially where we're sat would make this building unusable. Potentially it breaks its banks as far inland as Warrington. And large parts of the city regions hinterland, particularly further out to sea, you know, things like the southern coastline in the north of the Wirral are at significant flood risk. So from our perspective this is about our friends and families homes, you know kind of we we've got to have the right answer to it. I think as a Council, we've obviously declared our climate aspirations to be net 0 by 2030. There's a lot we've done about signing up to green tariffs for our own energy. I like to think we've got one of the strongest success stories on local transport across the city and beyond in this country. But we know there's so much more that. We need to do. I am going to be taking forward a citizens jury approach so we can actually make sure that kind of. People of the city can help inform frankly the right compromises because there's always compromise to be had, but make sure it's actually been done with the right understanding rather than it being done to people, which is where you then sort of see an understandable but worrying. Yeah, push back against the necessary measures we're going to. Have to take. So a good start, but not naive about the amount that we've got to do as a city and the wider region and frankly country and as a globe and it worries me greatly at a time when you've got a government that doesn't appear to take this as seriously as it should. I think it falls to us, particularly in local government, to show a better way of doing it, because if we don't, I don't want to look my kids and grandkids in the art in a few decades time and say as a generation we didn't do this properly.
There's one thing that I think underpins everything we've spoken about so far, and that's financing and funding. In local government, it's a big topic of conversation. In terms of the current situation of local government funding and finances. What are your views?
Ohh look, the current situation is completely and utterly broken when you look at the number of authorities in lots of different places, be that different political control, be that different demographics and geographies from big cities to rural areas. Having to declare section 114 notices and effectively being operationally bankrupt. That shows that the funding for local government is completely and utterly broke. I think from my perspective in the shorter term, it needs to be addressed with more government grant funding. I think the grant formulas definitely have to change. They have to be focused on need and deprivation, not on per capita population. That's certainly been one of the reasons Liverpool has massively missed out and we've seen, you know, more than 60% of our budget. Put taken away from us over the past thirteen years, which in real terms, is half a billion pounds taken away from our local economy. You know the kind of economic shock that gives to our local economy and local households is absolutely huge. Huge. I think longer term there's huge opportunity to look at this. I I think it would be great to have something like a royal Commission into local government finance to actually look at it in a a different way than the traditional political football. I also think there's an opportunity with more devolution to do some appropriate fiscal devolution. That would actually give councils like our own and combined authorities the ability to generate some. Of our kind of revenues and capital ourselves now wouldn't be completely sort of a fiscally devolved picture. You know, we're not going to devolve nations, but the certainly a lot. More we could. Do that comparable big cities in other countries are able to do so. For me, those are all the different things that we've got to do to to fix this. But the reality of the situation at this moment in time. The model is completely and utterly broke. And that's why you're seeing the crisis not just in Council finances, but ultimately the crisis that creates in local services and the impact it has on local communities that are already really, really struggling.
How is this situation financially affecting your wider goals? Things that we have touched on, like homelessness? And transporting net 0.
It makes it extremely difficult. I probably should reassure your listeners that Liverpool City Council is not anywhere near going to bake and have declaring section 114 notice, so we're not near the precipice and we won't be getting near the precipice. Our kind of structuring our process in place. I mean that we're. More normal in the local government world. Now I say normal because every Council, one way or another, is under some form of financial distress. I think from our perspective, it makes life, you know, eminently more difficult. You know when when you look at the fact that about 70% of our budget now is is on social services, be that children's or adults, it hinders our ability to do any of the other things in terms of frontline services, we want to do of how we can support different communities. Out in their neighbourhoods and how we actually kind of underpin local economic growth and and all the other things we want to do as well. So it makes it really, really difficult. And when you're kind of looking at what are the least worst cuts rather than what are the hard headed areas you want to do more. Of it actually makes it extremely difficult.
Just to wrap up, we've talked about a lot of different issues, but with our audience leaders across the public sector. Is there a message that you would want to send to our audience? Is there anything you want to say that they could maybe learn from you and your work here?
In Liverpool, I think to be honest, we're all in a similar boat and I'm conscious your listeners will all be predominantly senior people within the local government and public sector. I think it's incumbent on all of us to keep on shouting and making the argument for local government. I've always believed that local knows best rather than a far off place hook called Whitehall. Frankly, and I think we've got to kind of continue not just to sort of huddle together for warmth, but continue to make that kind of undeniable. Argument that more resources and more power should come to a local level, because fundamentally we end up with better results. But secondarily, that's what the people that we serve actually want to see as well. So I think from my perspective, rather than sort of saying is the lessons you can learn from. Liverpool, although there's lots I could point to proudly, I think it's more about how do we all kind of continue to kind of push our corner boldly, proudly, but appropriately, loudly.
So in terms of local government leaders as a whole, collaboration is key.
Then collaboration is key together as the additional resources and powers. That we need to make a difference for the people that at the end of the day. We do it. All for and.
That's our residents. You've been listening to the latest podcast from Public Sector Executive magazine. Don't forget to like and subscribe to make sure you receive every new addition.