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00:00:00 Speaker: Of course, the basic scripture for relating to each other is given in Ephesians five starts with the twenty first verse. Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God. Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands. Watch that little word as all the way through now as unto the Lord. How do you submit to the Lord out of love? Just because you love him and you want to bless him? For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is head of the church. Which means, of course, by laying your life down. That's how he does it. And he is the Savior of the body. Therefore, as the church is subject unto Christ, so let wives be to their own husbands in everything. Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church. Notice that word as again, even as Christ. And how did he by laying his life down and gave himself for it? And let's just jump down now to the twenty eighth verse. So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, even as the Lord the church. For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife. And they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Nevertheless, let every one of you in particular so love his wife, even as himself and the wife see that she reverence her husband. Now to talk about how we relate to each other physically and spiritually, let me start a long way from talking about us as man and wife. Just ask you some questions. You answer them silently, or maybe answer them aloud. You want to. For you is something which is spirit, something which is up here apart from and different than, say, this chair. Or is spirit something which may be more than and apart from, but it also flows in and through the chair. Which way would you answer? The latter flows through the chair. Okay. How many would answer the other way? Could you all pass? Now, if you were at work and, uh, whatever work you do, working with a machine or working with salespeople or whatever you're working with, would that be something physical? But if you were praying with your wife, that would be something spiritual? Or would it be physical and spiritual at work and physical and spiritual praying with your wife, which way would you answer? The latter one. Physical and spiritual. Praying with your wife. How about physical and spiritual at work? Physical and spiritual at work. It isn't always ah, right there C should be, but isn't always. That's one of the clues we're going to talk about, because that's one of our misunderstandings. We think that being spiritual is an attitude and it isn't. It's a fact. Now, put another way, if you and your wife are praying together, is that something spiritual? But if you are making love to each other, that's something physical? Or is it physical and spiritual to be praying together and physical and spiritual to be making love together? Which way would you answer the latter, physical and spiritual. To be making love with each other, physical and spiritual to be praying. You all pass. But let me tell you about the confusion and the whole first part of the talk. I want to I want you to understand this confusion. There are two ways of thinking about ourselves as body and spirit that came down through to us, through the culture, and they influence us without our being aware of them. For instance, if you had grown up in Texas, you might all say, y'all come back now, you hear? And you wouldn't think I'm going to speak with a southern accent. You just would. If you'd been raised in Japan, you might walk a little mincing steps. But if you were raised in Arkansas, you might lope along, you know. And the difference is just the culture. You don't even think to act that way. You do. Okay. The way that you and I relate to things and the way we relate to each other comes from two different ways that come through our culture, whether we're aware of them or not. And they affect us until we see them in Jesus and put a stop to them and change them. Now the one way is the anti-Christ way, and it's thought to be the Christian way by most people. One way is the Christian way, and it's thought to be wrong by most people in our culture, not in Christianity, but in the culture now all around Israel, in Babylon and up in Asia minor, down in Egypt, they had a view about life that went like this. They believed that spirit was up here and spirit was good, but matter was bad. Body was bad, bad defiled. The Hindu religion says that we fell into the body. We're trapped in the body and the wheels of dharma and karma. We got to mortify the body and get back up and be a pure spirit. Do you see? That's the opposite of the Christian view? Do you know? Do you ever hear the Babylonian story of creation? It sounds like a long way to get away from sex, but we'll get to it in a while. Did you ever hear the Babylonian story of creation? Marduk is a god who fights with Tiamat, his mother. Notice the difference between Jesus and Mary and Marduk and demon. He takes the four winds of heaven, stuffs them into her mouth, her belly distends and she dies of gas poisoning. He takes out his knife, slits her belly, lifts up the top half. That's the heavens. The blood and guts running out at the bottom. That's the earth. That's creation. And with that story, you're going to respect your body and the earth. That's a yuck. Yuck. Did you ever hear the Egyptian story of creation? There's an ooey gooey, slimy mud flood in the midst of the ooey gooey, slimy mud flood arises a mud hillock. On that muck arises a man who spits. That spit is creation. Yuck! Now you contrast that with in the beginning is a good, holy, gentle, clean, loving Father God, who says, let there be light. And behold, there was light. And God saw that it was good. What a contrast. And he does this all the way through in the sixth day. He takes that good, clean dust to the earth, and he forms man into a body, breathes his own breath in, and man becomes a living soul. Now that story. The body is clean and holy and good. All the earth is good and clean and holy and good. That is the basis into which Jesus Christ came, holy and good and clean to be a body, not a fall, but holy and clean and good. The place where we become sons of God. And so it's into that that Jesus Christ became flesh. Didn't visit here. See, the body is not a can into which God is poured the spirit. And then at death he'll take that spirit out and use it like a can. That isn't what it is. The body is not a temporary mortal coil to be shuffled off. That's the anti-Christ way of thinking. The body is itself a part of the new creation. And if we die out of this body, we are given a new body. Real physical body and the sons of God live in the body. And it's that's where we're to be fulfilled. Now, the Antichrist way is the opposite way, which says the body is no good. Mithraic cults you want at the point of dying, was to get out of the body and get back up and be a spirit. And so that way of thinking that split life apart and said, the body and the spirit are opposed to each other, the body in the spirit, war with each other. And you want to be a pure spirit and not be a body. That way of thinking is what came into the church. It came in through Aristotle and it came through the Catholic Church. It came through the English Church, and it came through my denomination, the Congregational and the Puritans, into America. And it became the way of thought behind the way we think about all things, not just talking about sex. Now I'm talking about the way we think is one of the basic problems in our culture today is that we don't think rightly about nature and creation. For instance, If we thought in Hebraic Christian terms about the body, we would understand that the Spirit of God flowing through a woman's body is holy and clean and good, and her body and spirit are one and holy and clean and good. Therefore, we could not stand to have pornography which debases splits apart. Do you see that we can have pornography because we think in anti-Christ terms with the split mentality. So this is just a body. So why don't you just look at bodies? We don't realize that's the spirit and soul and body together. Now, do you see it? Well, how the Antichrist has worked in our culture. So you can have X-rated films. And a man wants to go to a prostitute because he thinks that that's just a body. He doesn't realize that you can't separate spirit and body. That spirit and body flow together as one, and the body and spirit of a woman are one. Holiness. So he thinks I might as well go find a better body and have fun with that body. And it has nothing to do with what I am as a spirit. But Saint Paul said, do you not know that when you lie with a woman, you become one with her? So you can't split them apart. To get apart again from sex and just talk about this way of thinking, which is so wrong and pervades our whole culture, how about a miracle? People talk about mind over matter. That is a non-Christian term. It's not in the Bible. It's not biblical thinking. There is no such thing as mind over matter. See, that's the anti-Christ way of thinking that splits them apart. What a miracle really is, is a cooperation in union of spirit flowing through, in and with the body, liberating it to perform to its fullest. That's what America really is. Is all this clear to you? Is it new to you? Yeah. You begin to see how the anti-Christ way of thinking has split life apart so that we don't meet anything. We move and push it, which are just objects. See? They have no life in them. You don't think of them as anything that has spirit flowing through it. Our whole way of thinking in the American culture has been based on the anti-Christ rather than the Word of God. And so when we come into Christ, our whole way of thinking has to be brought to death and given new birth within the Word of God. So we can think in biblical terms so that we approach life, seeing it as one wholeness. Here's another way I'll show you a man goes to work and he thinks that he ought to be Christian at work. And so he thinks there ought to be something he could do that's spiritual at work. And so what does he do? He tries to find something that spiritually can't find anything. So he gets defeated and thinks, well, I don't know what to do, but that's anti-Christ thinking he split life apart and he doesn't realize anything he does is spiritual. He is a spiritual being. His body and spirit flow as one, so whoever and whatever he touches, that's a spiritual act, and know that if he knew that he'd clean up his language, he'd be kind to his fellow brother and understand that just in touching a brother, God's Spirit is touched through the through him to touch his brother. And that was spiritual. But you see, we've divided life apart. And we call this over here secular and this over here spiritual. That's a that's an unchristian term. There's no such thing as a secular act. That's anti-Christ thinking. There's no secular act. You are one person wherever you are, and the Spirit of God is flowing into you at work, wherever you are. What are you doing? Do you see that now? You can't visit with any person or touch any person without God's Spirit touching through your spirit and your body to that person. It's a spiritual act. There's no such thing as an unspiritual act, because you can't split you and do something in your body that your spirit didn't do, and you can't do something in your spirit. Your body didn't do. They flow together as one. That's the Christian way of thinking. Now let's bring it down to us as sexual beings. If we don't understand the unity of our beings, that we are one whole person, spirit, heart, mind, body and soul flowing together as oneness, then we tend to relate to the wife or the husband only as a body. And we miss the glory because we think then deep inside that making love is just a physical thing, nothing spiritual about it and it isn't. There's no way real physical union is a meeting spirit to spirit, heart to heart, mind to mind, body to body, memory to memory, affection to affection, cherishing to cherishing, nurturing to nurturing. It's a real union and the glory of what should happen as you meet each other and cherish each other? Is that all day long you are meeting and cherishing each other. If a husband is loving his wife as he should, he is laying down his life, for her husband's task is to give to his wife joy, give to his wife fulfillment, give to his wife happiness. That's what's behind providing for going to work is to give to his wife, to lay down his life for her happiness. That should be going on all day, and she should be seeking to nurture his heart all day long. Scripture says, you know well, a man protects the woman with his strength and his logic, but she was taken from his rib and therefore she protects his heart. She nurtures his heart. Scripture says in Proverbs thirty one, the heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, and he shall have no lack of gain. She nurtures his heart all day long, carries his heart and hers and loves him. In fact, women had become so powerfully needed by man when Eve was deceived and chose wrongly, Adam wasn't. He knew better than to eat the apple. But Eve had become so important to him. He chose her before God. Think on that one. That's the position God has given women to men to nurture the heart. Keep the heart alive. Cherish the heart. Hold the other's heart in the heart and love. So this is what they're doing for each other all day. And then when they come together in sex, what should be happening is a meeting first of their spirits together so that they are cherishing each other. If a man thinks in sex to get something, he's never entered the arena of love. He's there to give nurture to his wife, to bless her, to fulfill her. So let me give you a little exercise to do well in the first place. My holy and ghostly counsel to all couples is pajamas are a great thing to hang on the bedpost in case of fire. God has created us with a kind of electrical energy that flows out of us to each other. And we need that electrical energy. We need that touch. The spirit flows through the skin to the other and clothes insulate it. And we really need that touch with each other, flowing to each other back and forth. We need to be able to feel it. So the exercise I would give to you is to lie together at night, either on your backs or side by side, and just put the man, put his hand right on the woman's chest right here, and let the woman put her hand on his chest and just leave your hand there praying and then seeing if you can feel the energy of the other flowing in. In fact, you should feel after a while, as though your hand goes all the way down through to the back bone of the other. If you are truly fully united and you're just lying chest to chest, you ought to be able to let your hands run down the back of the other and feel your hands going down your chest through the other one. Does that sound very mystical and nutty? But if you're fully united, spirit to spirit, you can actually feel that happening because your spirits are flowing into each other. So real union is that kind of meeting and cherishing of each other's spirits. And that takes time. Now, Herman de Velde wrote the book Ideal Marriage, in which he talked very frankly about sex, of what he says is if a couple have made love from beginning to end in fifteen minutes. They have not had love. They've had rape. And he said every love play should take at least an hour. And not less than an hour from beginning to end. Because it takes time for you to nurture and cherish each other. And there should be quietness if you run into heavy passion. Quite often you run right past the spiritual feelings, what we call spiritual, more mystical or whatever you call them. You run right past those finer sensitivities of meeting and cherishing each other. And I want you to be aware of this Scripture. Proverbs five eighteen and nineteen. We found through years of counseling that couples do not know the power and beauty that have been given to them. It says, let thy fountain be blessed and rejoice with the wife of thy youth. Let her be as the loving hind and pleasant row. Let her breasts satisfy thee at all times, and be thou ravished always with her love. It's a very concrete word, isn't it? Did you know that God has given to women right in this area? Now I'm just speaking to you mystically. God gave me a mystical nature. I can feel things. He's given to women right in this area. From the head down through the breast and chest. A power that flows like a river of energy through them. And that river of energy is to nurture and feed the man. It's to fulfill him. And women need to know that they are God's gift to man. And think of it like batteries with a you know, you have jumper cables going across and started one car with another. Well, think of it that way. But the woman is like a battery for the man. And if she will hug him when he comes home, and before he goes and make him stand there and not rush off, and she'll just hug him and put herself against him and ask God to let her spirit and his spirit flow through into her man. She'll fill him with warmth and love and power. If she'll do that enough. His knowledge gets tempered with gentleness. If she doesn't do it enough, he becomes brittle and stern. She softens and tenderizes him. And if she'll do that, enough. He's filled with warmth and love. Most couples do not spend enough time letting the woman put her breasts against the man, and just let that energy flow from one to the other. It just isn't a one way street. The man, also his spirit flows into hers, and most couples don't spend enough time letting the man kiss the wife's breasts. It's good for the wife. It's good for the man fulfilling. God created you for that. You see, with a man and wife, there is nothing so holy and sacred as their union together. Nothing so holy and sacred. It's beautiful and holy and clean and good. You should find yourselves if you really meet and cherish one another, saying, oh, it's so holy, so wholesome, so fulfilling. That's what should be happening. If a man discovers the glory that his wife is in fact, the Scripture says that the glory of a man is his wife. If he discovers that, he almost cannot be tempted to another. Now, I've ministered all across the country in very close situations, loving situations with God's beautiful women, and God has beautiful women, beautiful of face, beautiful figure, beautiful of personality and character. Praise the Lord. I've never been tempted because never gone to another woman. Why? Because he taught my spirit that only Paula's spirit is tuned to mine to fulfill me. She's the only one who can tell me who I am. No other woman can tell me who I am. No other woman can fulfill me. This, by the way, is the reason for the marriage ceremony. If you take two violins and play them together, they don't go together. It's cacophonous. You have to bring the violins to each other, tune them in each other's presence, to each other. Then they can play together. I used to go to symphonies. I wasn't a musician. Do you ever do this? Go to a concert and you hear them tuning up back there behind the. And they're going, honk, honk, honk, honk. And I thought, why didn't they do that at home, Didn't you see? We weren't musicians, and we didn't know that musicians have to tune their instruments to each other, in each other's presence, or they can't make beautiful music. And this is why God has given us the command not to commit fornication even with our own wife. Because until the marriage ceremony has tuned us to each other, that's what he does in the marriage ceremony. He moves on your spirit, and he unites your spirit with that of your wife or your husband. He unites and tunes you to each other. Only then can you really meet and nurture the other. Now, when I've been out ministering for a long time to other people, I feel caught out. Does this happen to some of you men at work? You're out making decisions all day, and when you get home, you just feel like you're caught out. Like you haven't got a bit of humanity left in you. Like you're drained. Well, if Paula will come and not use her tongue on me. But just put her chest against mine and hold on a while. I can actually, because he gave me that kind of a mystical spirit, I can actually feel the cells of her body just reaching in and lining mine out again. She's just telling me who I am again, in a language far beneath words. Her spirit is actually doing. If you've ever watched iron filings that are magnetized or you've seen in a telescope molecules that are magnetized, they're just lined out. I can actually feel the cells in my body just lining out again. She's just telling me who I am. I see no other woman can do that. Now, if Paula were to die, then God could give another woman to me and tune her to me. Or if I were to die, he could give another man to her in tune. But now we're the only couple. And this is why God said, don't commit adultery. Because he created us to complete each other and tell each other who we are. This is why the Scripture says he that committeth adultery doeth what destroyeth his own soul. How is he destroying his soul? He's being told lies. The wrong woman is telling him who he is, and if he has lain with another woman, there needs to be a pronouncement by someone who knows his authority in Christ that he is forgiven and that His Spirit be separated from that person's spirit. Now, I never got into bed with any other woman or even thought I'd make love to one. But in counseling for a while, women started latching on to me in wrong ways. After a while, Paula said, Jack, we're not alone in bed anymore. I can feel the presence of other women. And then I had to go through and just repent of every way. I needed a mother. Yet any way I needed women to latch onto me for ego's sake. Any way I needed to cause women to love me so I could punish them for loving me. anything. Any wrong motive? We just prayed and prayed and prayed until now. I can counsel women. They don't latch onto me in wrong ways. And Paula's spirit isn't offended by their spirit being there with me, because she's the only one that has the right to latch on to me and tell me who I am now. Love play. I'm going to speak frankly, and I hope it's all right with everybody in love. Play. A man should know three things. There are three rules to observe, and he should never violate them. First one is that a man should never enter his wife without adequate foreplay. The woman's body takes longer to prepare. Her whole body turns on. Man's ready like a jackrabbit. But a woman is not, and it takes longer. If he enters too soon and she's not had time to lubricate. It's like running a piston engine with no oil. It tears your body. And finally, there's a homeostatic homeostatic principle in the body. It's called the body wisdom. And if he's a brute and insensitive, her body will simply turn off and close off. And she becomes frigid, though she wasn't, because it's a defense. It's too harsh on her system. So the man must take time to arouse the woman. Second, this is the most important one. And you know, I've counseled people who have been thirty years married and don't know this. Our counsel, doctors and doctors, wives. And they don't know this. A woman should never be aroused and entered without having climax. A woman should never be left without climax. What happens in a woman is that the whole being turns on all over. Do you know what the ostium is? How many? Anybody know what the ostium is? Well, of course you know what the cervix is. Okay, the ostium is that part of the uterus which comes down to the vagina, of which the cervix is the tip. When a woman reaches climax, then that ostium jerks convulsively, as though to catch the seed. And when that signal comes, the whole body turns off and comes to peace and rest. If that signal doesn't come, then the whole body stays turned on. And when the whole body stays turned on without ever being turned off, it's like running a series motor with nothing attached, and it just keeps winding up until finally it explodes. I've had women come to me. They've been married thirty years. Six children. Never had a climax. They've been depressed. They've been hyper. They've been manic. They've been everything. And a good portion of it was the husband and her ignorance. They didn't know. She thought she was blessing him by giving her to him regularly, but she didn't know that she was defeating him and her by not coming to climax. Does it bother you for me to speak this frankly? Okay, I'm going to speak some more, frankly. Very few men can stay with a woman long enough. In normal position to bring a woman to climax is not a matter of loss of your manhood if you can't. Very few men can. If a man loses semen immediately, she should be on top of him, pushing herself in position to come to climax. If he loses erection, he should satisfy her by touching the clitoris with the fingers. And that's holy and that's clean and that's good. And it should happen. But he should not leave her without climax. That's very injurious to her psyche. Now, there are times when you just simply fall asleep or something. But. And that's all right. That's understood. The third rule. The couple should not short circuit the after time. There's a time of resting together which is of mutual cherishing. If the man just turns over and goes to sleep, the woman thinks, oh, he just wanted to use my body. Now he's done and I'm used. And what was all that? She doesn't feel met and cherished at that time. Of just lying quietly and cherishing one another is important. So those three rules never too quick, never without climax, and never just forgetting the after time, but just lying quietly and cherishing each other. It's a mutual meeting, and cherishing the task of a husband is to give to his wife Joy. Now, one thing I want to correct because I hear it so many times in counseling. Many women think that if they just give themselves physically to their husbands, that's what they're supposed to do. And they do not realize that a husband's Husbands. Joy is in giving joy to the wife, and they don't realize that if they don't let themselves be turned on and they don't let themselves be fulfilled, they are doing more damage to the husband than any other way they could, because they're defeating him and preventing him from the fullness of his joy, which is to give joy to her. And I have to talk to women about that thousands of times in counseling, because they don't understand that for them to have joy blesses their husband more than anything else. That's that meeting then doesn't happen. If the wife is just being dormant and not letting husband turn her on. So sex should. And this is where I'm going to close this part of the talk. Insects. What should happen is refreshment if the couple come out of sexual meeting with each other. More tired than they went in. Than what they've done is to fall into the flesh with it rather than have a spiritual meeting. You should come out of a sexual union more refreshed, more in tune with one another, more in admiration of each other, more in appreciation of each other, more nurtured and comforted in each other, more sure of your love in each other. And that's what should happen. It should not be more tired. It should be refreshed. It's the gift of God to man and to woman. And by the way, first Corinthians seven says, the husband does not rule over his own body, but the wife does. Neither does the wife rule over her own body, but the husband does. Do not refuse one another except by agreement for a season. And so it's not a matter of whether you feel like it. You're God's gift to each other, and sometimes the man needs to be fulfilled in his woman when she doesn't feel like it. And sometimes the woman needs to be fulfilled by her man when he doesn't feel like it, and he should be given to each other. Because you should be given to each other. You're God's gift to each other, to replenish each other and to fulfill each other. And the man should find himself being fulfilled in his woman. If he is, he's really fulfilled in his woman. Very few men will stray. Taking another woman in such a case would be like going to a ham sandwich to a banquet with a ham sandwich. Only the wife is the real banquet. That's what you are to each other now. Questions and answers. We need to understand. See, when we read those words, the woman is unclean. We are thinking in terms of awful sin. And when the Scripture was describing that in the Old Testament, it didn't mean that at all. It means she just needed a bath. It just meant no. It just meant that her spirit was in that time of discharging from her, and therefore her spirit was not ready to receive her husband into her. In this sense, she was not a clean vessel. This is why the scripture says that the couple should not make love in her time, because her spirit is engaged in discarding what is really death. You know, the menses are simply that it didn't the no life came in, so you discard that death. So it's not a time for coming together for life because she's discarding death. And that's the only sense in which it means uncleanness. But we read that, you see, with all the Antichrist training in us and we think it's dirty, doesn't mean that at all. See? And I'm sure that the Hebrews didn't think of it in that way. I think there's a very simple basis for decisions on those things, and that is whatever glorifies the union and enables them to give more joy to each other as Queen. And this to me, says that any position they can find which enables them to give joy to each other is good. I've heard it stated this way the the marriage bed is undefiled. Now, whatever goes too far for any particular person, then we need to apply that which Saint Paul spoke of when he was talking about food offered to idols. You know, if it's guilt to you, it's guilt to you. So if it went too far for you and you felt bad about it, then you should just pray about it and be cleansed. Whatever you did. And I would add this thing that I have found that whatever is natural, Paul and I find that whatever is natural, whatever is natural, seems to be clean and holy to meet each other. Cherish each other. I have another question, she said. Uh, I had spoken about, uh, women latching on to me, Paula sensing their presence in bed. And, um, what if you had other partners before your marriage but you'd repented of it? Is there still something there? There may be. For this reason, Paula and I teach every time we get a chance to preach who hear confessions. And to Christians who act in the priesthood of all believers, to hear confessions, to use your authority and declare and separate the spirit of that person from other unions. Recently, I have been ministering to several prostitutes who have come out of prostitution. And it took a lot of healing, a lot of prayers for forgiveness, a lot of resurrection for the person because she felt so denigrated, so, so wounded that she just felt she could never be clean and holy again. And once she was healed, then there was that necessity to pray in the process of healing, that their spirit be separated from every man. And now, this last one. It looks now as though she's going to marry a Holy Spirit filled Christian elder in a church. How's that for redemption? But if you have in any degree been involved with any other person before your marriage or after, then you should pray. Go to somebody in confession. Shouldn't do it just alone I think should go to somebody. Confess and say pray that prayer. But if a person doesn't know how to do it, you say. You tell him what to say and have him say it. And pray that your spirit be separated, I even say. And now I direct that this person's spirit forget that union and be free to be only to his mate or her mate only. This would also hold true in the case of divorce and remarriage. Yes, yes, the Scripture says he, those whom God hath joined together, let no man put asunder. But that man put asunder, God himself can put asunder. And so if the fact of the divorce and remarriage has already happened, God is simply practical, and he says, okay, let's go with what is. It wasn't my first will, but let's go with it. And now he gives to his servant the power to speak for him and to say, I now direct that your spirit forget that previous union, and you be free to this mate, so that you are free to nurture your mate. Now. The father and I are every year more grateful that the Lord has kept us only to each other. That's just Grace. We're not writing about it. He just has kept us to each other. And it's beautiful to us. To where that isn't so uncoupled. The Lord can redeem it. Touch them with light and and make them only to each other. It's the same. True if one or the other has been widowed. Or a widow. Yes. Married? Yes. Same is true that there needs to be that kind of prayer. Actually, if it has happened, if the wife in her grief, if the husband dies and she's gone through it, praying through it until she has fully released her husband, if that has happened in her spirit, then she's really free to be to the man that the Lord brings. But sometimes you need to pray it in order to be sure. You know, so that the spirit is free. Yes. Another study. They brought out the same thing. They call it total powers. The spirits keep playing, and yet the understanding can cause damage in the in the soul's powers. Yes. In soulish attachments. For instance, if a wife is now married, she's lost her husband and she's married to this other man. But she continues to tell him about the first one, and she continues to remember the first one. That tends to bring that back on. And it's not good, you know. And she needs to be free to be to this husband. What about the case where, say, a wife left her husband for another man, then discovered after that later that she had made a terrible mistake, wanted her original husband back. But in the meantime, the original husband had found a woman that he loved and had married her. Now, wife number one thinks, you know, I'm going to keep attacking until maybe I'll break this marriage down and get him back eventually. Now, I don't know that it sounds something like that can go on or not. It does go on. I've dealt with it. Tell me that it's almost a form of witchcraft. Yes, but is there is this something that really does happen? Yes. We have a tape out there called Cutting Tree, and it's it teaches about cutting free from people. And there is a necessity to be cut free from people. And if wife number one has made that kind of mistake, she's made that kind of mistake. It's tragic. I've seen it happen. I've dealt with women who just so much now want to. They knew they made the mistake of wanting the husband back. But it's too late. He's married somebody else, and they've just got to be taught to release and let go and live with the mistake they've made. All right, supposing the wife, number one, is not a Christian, I couldn't care less about that. How does the couple then handle this thing? There is a psychic impact, as it were. Then you pray the couple need to be taught to pray, to be hidden in Christ, that they be hidden, and that what I'll do in a case like that, I'll use that prayer, or I'll use it as a prayer and I'll say, uh, just let now the angels of God, even as they did in Sodom, cast light into the eyes of those men, and they groped for the handle of the door all night and couldn't find it. Let light be cast about them, and let anybody who would interfere with them be unable to find them. Let them be hidden in Christ, so that no one can find them in their life is their own life. Let them grope for them and not find them. Let all the paths be obscured so they cannot find them, and let them be hidden in Christ. My question there might be some value in sharing some of the specific experiences that people have, which would reinforce what's generally in the culture. Um, for instance, just being conceived at a time when the sexual relationship of the parent was a violent, rapacious kind of thing and the sort of attitude that's been planted, etc. we've often dealt with women who found themselves terribly afraid of the man and afraid of the male organ, and couldn't find out why they were never molested. Turns out that in the womb the father with the mother was brutal, and the spirit in the womb was aware of that and came out afraid of the man. Can't understand why she can't give herself fully to the man. And that can just be healed. You just walk back and pray for that person to be healed, even in the womb and the spirit in the womb. Be comforted and healed. Uh, lots of things like that. Just, uh, I hear very often this one of couples who were, uh, one one or one or both partners, where one partner is raised in a small house and at night hears the father and the mother and, uh, maybe the mother refusing the father or doing something, you know, the father being brutal and, uh, just terrified then, of effects. Well, there are all kinds of things you see that can happen molestations all kinds of things that can prevent fullness of union. And all those can be healed just by inviting Jesus to walk back and find those memories. Enable the child to forgive. Comfort the child. Heal the child's attitude towards his own body, cast away fears, and so on. Very often we deal with this and it's very easy to heal because it's what Jesus came to do. Jesus doing it. He came to do that very thing. So he just invite him to walk back and touch the child and heal the child's memory. Uh, when there is great love between a couple, as you seek out and there's tremendous spiritual and physical closeness, it's almost as though they cease being one person. I mean, the two are now one, and the Bible tells become one flesh. Yes. They're also, in a sense, one spirit. Okay. Yes and no. Herein is a mystery of union and individuation. There is a mystery that God is bringing us into, and if we want to talk about the mystery of Christ and the church, we're not talking about what it really is, is a mystery whereby God is building the kind of people who can individuate, which means be their own person, totally free, individual by themselves with Jesus, and at the same time be totally corporate so that they are totally we. A man who still thinks that I have a wife, I have a house, I have children, is not yet married. He hasn't become corporate. He doesn't think in we terms. You see that one. And to become corporate, then a person can only become fully corporate. If he's fully individuated and his own person, he can only be his own person if he's fully corporate. And it's a mystery of corporateness and individuality. So that Paula is half of me. He has taken us through that process. For this reason, a man shall leave his father and mother be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one. That's a three stage process. For a couple of years after we married, Paula said, you haven't come to live with me yet. You know, I was still a mama's boy. And then when I left, then we could be joined. And then it took him a number of years to make us one, so that at this point, I would say she is half of my being. And yet I'm a total being without her. I'm half of her being. Yet she's a total being without me. Can you say that in any better terms? I don't think so. I think it might be good to add there that we don't have a fifty over fifty relationship either, that I have to be one hundred percent of me for him, and he has to be one hundred percent of himself for me, or there's something wrong with our relationship. Fifty over fifty is a formula for divorce, one hundred percent for the other is a formula for a union and marriage. It's just been in my life. What about women who have an infection or cancer? Yeah, that's a great loss to the husband. You know, I just it's a great loss to the husband. You just have to cancel them. That they have to find other ways for the spirit to unite, to flow back and forth, you know? Well, that doesn't stop the spirits flowing through that area. No. Anyway, it would be a loss and it would be a lie. To say it isn't a lot, but it isn't a total loss because the spirit flows primarily from the heart through the breath. If the breath is not there, the Spirit's going to continue to flow. But it is a loss to the woman. By the way, I'll share this one with you. I have no statistics to back this up, but I have noticed in my own counseling that very often, uh, if women have breast tumors and have have to lose. It's very often in cases where the wife for years did not come to climax, nor did the husband use her breasts enough. But full use almost guarantees wholeness. I find for the most part, that men can come to the wives for comfort in terms of sex, but not the other way, not in communication. And that wounds the wife. And so what needs to happen is that the husband needs to learn how to share his griefs and hurts. He feels less than a man if he admits there's something wrong with him, and he needs to learn to let his wife bear his hurts, needs to share his defeats and brokenness with his wife. If he doesn't, what will happen is this he will come in the door and because she is half of him. She will feel what's in him instantly with no name, even as though it's her. We've had cases where men are the philosophical types, the strong philosophical types who never let themselves feel anything. And the wife gets everything. She has the high blood pressure. She has the ulcer she has. She's had everything taken out that can be taken out and still walk. Because what's happening is that everything he won't face is coming over into her, and she's wrestling with it with no name. Now the husband dies in six months later. She has perfect health because she doesn't have to bear with no name what's in him? And husbands need to be taught how to share. Talk. Wives come. Husband comes home like this all closed up. He wants to sink into himself and just hide for a while. And the wife has been waiting all day for him to come home so she can talk. So he comes like this, and she comes like this. And she says, talk to me. Says about what? You never used to have trouble talking to me when you courted me. You love me anymore. I do too, but I want to be alone. You never want to be alone before. And so around they go, you know. And husbands need to learn to open. And husbands think they've got to have it. See, in the business world, we don't open our mouth until we've thought it through. Because if you open your mouth before you've thought it through, you make a fool of yourself. And so we're taught very carefully to think it through before we say anything, which is exactly the opposite of the way to relate to a wife. She doesn't want it all thought through. She wants to. Sometimes wives provoke their husbands in a fight, to get their husbands to say something that they didn't control, so they can get to the real husband. See that he'll talk to you. Yeah, maybe he'll talk. You know he can hit anything. He's. He's talking. See? And so husband needed him to shift gears so they can blurt out without having thought it through. And then when they go to work, shift gears again so they don't blurt out without thinking. Do you see that? It's a very difficult thing in our culture for husbands in that position, and need to be free just to open up and share things without even knowing what they're saying, you know, just blurt something out with the wife. That's where to blurt it. If the husband doesn't, the wife will bear everything that's in him, but with no name on it and not even know why she's feeling the way she's feeling, but she's feeling what's in him. It's one of the places where the culture has really defeated men. The macho impression, you know, where the man is supposed to be able to handle everything, and he's less of a man if he can't handle it, you know? And. And so the man is not supposed to share what's in him. But the woman wasn't trained that way. So the woman is free to open up to a counselor. And the man feels like his manhood is being defeated. If he does, he's supposed to have. And it's so ridiculous because it doesn't pervade in every area. A husband has enough sense to know if there's something wrong with his car. He takes it to a mechanic. If there's something wrong with his body, he takes it to the doctor. But he's supposed to be the expert about his own feelings. And you can't take that to the doctor. See, it's a silly thing that the culture has built into us. It's ridiculous. But that's what has happened to men. And women are freer to share. And men think it's demeaning to their manhood. And it isn't. But we got that into our. That's part of that anti-Christ culture that got into us, not Christian. I think that's one of the things that makes a really deep understanding of what it is to reverence your husband. Important, because if you're really reverencing your husband, you're giving him the kind of deep respect, um, that he needs in order to build that kind of ego strength, which will enable him to say, I have a need. And if that atmosphere isn't provided by the wife, if she tries to get to him by goading or by criticism or by accusing, then it just drives him farther away in order to be free from her. He has to be silent and withdraw from her. But if she really respecting him and inviting him, then that's a safe place to share what's really on his mind and heart. And she's speaking of experience, because it used to be she would come at me like that and I'd just retreat into a cave inside myself. I feel like I was knocked down in a hole and couldn't get out and didn't want to share anything, and she had to learn how to nurture me and just come in quietly and meet me and find me and take me out of the cave. And then I could talk. And I think I'm quite normal. Are there other men who are past experts in the cave? Current. Yeah. Yeah. It's a it's what we do. We just flea back and and here's another one. Men grew up with mothers naturally. And we fought to get free of mothers. And we learned the hard way that anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. And we learned that women have much better memories than husband men. And so we feel like we're going into the fight with our hands tied behind our back, because she'll remember things we won't remember. And so we're afraid to share anything or get too close to the women because mama will dominate us again, and her memory is going to be better than ours. So we're going to be controlled. Did you know I deal every day in counseling with six foot four men who are afraid, terrified of that little five foot wife? If he could just beat up on her, he'd feel great. But he can't do that. And she's got better equipment for fighting than he does. We're so carefully taught the importance of being courteous to one another in kind and gentle and loving in all of our relationships. The things that are really secondary to us. But sexual union is a place where we're probably more vulnerable than at any other time. And that's the time when the nature of Christ needs to express through us in courtesy and reverence and deep respect. It's a tough place to be in. It just is. You have to pray that the Lord separate your spirit from that of your father and mother, so that you can feel that you are totally free and know that you are. And once it's fully satisfied inside, then you can just glibly say to him, hey honey, I'm not yours. Even if I agree with him, I'm with you whether you believe that or not. That tape cutting free that we did is about that very thing cutting free. You need to cut free from each other. It's the final thing. I'll put it to you this way. All natural human love is shot through with use, manipulation, exploitation and demand. So if you're really going to be free to be to each other, having received Jesus, you need to renounce each other. And that means that you cut free from all the old fleshly ways you used to relate to each other so that natural love, unregenerate love, can die so that the love which is in Jesus for each other can flow through freely. Until Paula and I learned this lesson, which is Luke fourteen twenty six, there was a demand level in our love. I come home thinking, I'm going to give Paula a hug. I'm going to be kind to the children. And as I stepped in the door, here came this wave through the air that hit me that said, you come give me a hug. No, I couldn't give her a hug because the demand took away my freedom. So until that demand level in the relationship dies, you're not free to be free from each other, to choose each other freely. And so human love needs to die on the cross with Jesus as well as the bad things. And when that dies and Jesus comes and loves you freely. After we did that with each other, we were married twenty three years before we learned that lesson. After we did that, we renounced each other in faith. We were renouncing the flesh demands that were renouncing. Then, for the first time, we were free to fail each other, and we could giggle about it and respect each other's inhumanities and not have to make the other one perform for us, or make ourselves perform for the other one. We were free to fail and it made a lot more fun and ease in the relationship. It is a matter of it's not just a one time prayer. You do have to go into prayer and once you get your eyes open to it, you start catching the ways in which you have a demand level on the other one, and then you haul that to death in prayer and you set the other one free. And when you set the other one free, then the other one's free and chooses you anyway. Most of the time we're trying to control each other, and all that control needs to die so that we're free to choose the other one freely. And our relationship since we did that has just been fun. And it used to be before we did that took us all night to have a fight. And the reason was that we were so determined not to hurt the other one. She'd say something and I'd go in to me and I'd think, and I'd feel, and I'd try to figure out how to say something back that would answer her without hurting her. So I was trying to control her, and then she'd hear that, and she'd think and pray and work and finally try to control me, answer something back. And then it takes me about five minutes. And, you know, it's like the turtles that say goodbye. And ten minutes later they're still saying goodbye. Obey him. And it just took all night to have a fight. And once, once we renounced each other, we were free just to spat at each other back and forth. And it was all done. You know, neither one of us carrying big scars. Just pop pop, pop pop. All done. It involves the trusting of the basic motive of the other one that goes beyond the content of what's being said. You know that if they weren't upset, if they weren't off balance, if they weren't in a state of imperfection, then they would mean to do you good. Yeah. Well, praise the Lord. Let's pray. Lord, we thank you for our beloved enemies. We thank you for the one you put with us, who is so opposite from us that we were diabolically designed to grind. We thank you for that. For by that you bring us to the awareness of our sin, and by that you also nurture us and fulfill us. So we thank you for our mates and we thank you for the union you give us. We pray that you may give us more freedom from each other, that you will bring to death all the old ways of the flesh that we used to relate to each other, so that all the demand world dies. And you set us free just to love each other in you. We pray, oh Lord, that you will go into each one of us and find those areas in our youth, either involvement with others or molestations or fears or things we heard from our parents and just touch our minds and hearts and heal them, setting us free from all the spirits of others so that we are just free to be to each other and to complete each other until the very cells of our being sing beautiful songs to each other and nurture each other. And we thank you for that gift. In Jesus name. Amen.