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The fun & fascinating stories of Supply Chain & Logistics.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:00:03] Hi, my name is Bryndis Whitson, and you're listening to the Zebras to Apples podcast. The fun and fascinating stories of supply chain logistics. You might be asking, what is supply chain logistics? I personally look at the supply chain as the movement of goods, people, and information. It could be rail, road, air, pipe, data. As long as it's moving, it's a part of the supply chain. This podcast episode is with my good friend George Read. This episode showcases exactly this. Plus, I personally could listen to George all day long. George has been in the field for over 25 years. Everything you touch today, everything you ate, wore, or purchased had a supply chain behind it. And that is what this podcast is all about. How did that item get to you? Was it on a ship, a train, a truck, or all three? Join me as we explore the supply chain procurement world with George Read.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:01:05] So starting in this conversation, you've got so many great experiences from so many different areas of the industry, from working with windows to working with office furniture, to working in oil and gas, to working in technology, to working now in groceries, I think all of your experiences are perfect, you know, as a start, too. So.
George Read: [00:01:27] No, I hear you and thank you for inviting me to your show, Bryndis. This is quite a treat. The, I think this is the first podcast, maybe second podcast I've really ever been on. But what did you want to talk about today?
Bryndis Whitson: [00:01:43] I think it's really talking about a lot of the fun stories of what a supply chain, and, you know, knowing all of our conversations that we've had over the years of talking about different things, I think this is kind of the perfect opportunity to kind of talk about what makes you like supply chain, what are moments within supply chain that actually make a difference, and what would make other people realize that they love it too?
George Read: [00:02:12] Well, that's a good, that's an interesting point. I don't know why anyone would go into supply chain. It's like a mistake. I mean, the supply chain is a wonderful place to be if it's something that you want to do, but I mean, supply chain is always out of step, right? Like it's always out of step with the company. Right. Because in the times when it's easy for the buyers and the supply chain people to get stuff, then the company isn't selling anything because that's a buyer's market, right? And that's when it's good for buyers. Right? And on the flip side, it's, in a seller's market, the company is doing great. They're selling stuff hand over fist. But you know as a buyer you can't get stuff for love nor money. So it's like the worst of times. So I mean why would you want to be in supply chain. But I mean, on the flip side, I know, I know why I got in and I got in it because my first boss in supply chain actually gave a class to a, you know, all of us plebs on the floor. And he was talking about how the supply chain works and about how it's a great, a great web of trying to bring all the materials into one place at one time so that you can build things and that it really is the, it really is what drives things.
George Read: [00:03:25] I mean, without stuff, you know. I mean the great line, you know, the bullets and the toilet paper have to arrive at the battlefield at the same time, like without the supply chain people, literally nothing happens. And of course, the problem with supply chain people is they, it's a hard job, you know, they're unsung heroes because when you do your job, nobody knows you exist. I mean, you go to the warehouse and you want to pick up whatever, and there are boxes of that sitting there. Now, you don't know the trials and tribulations the supply chain guy went through to make sure there was a box there when you needed it. But that's, but when the supply chain guy does his job, he's invisible. And so another reason, you know, you don't necessarily want to be in the profession is that when you do your job well, nobody knows your name, like they have no idea who you are. I mean, recently we've had all these supply chain disasters. You know, shortage of toilet paper, shortage of this, shortage of that because the...
Bryndis Whitson: [00:04:20] Empty shelves.
George Read: [00:04:21] Empty shelves. Exactly. And everybody's all like, oh, supply chain, supply chain.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:04:25] Suddenly we know what it is.
George Read: [00:04:26] Yeah, exactly. But the only reason, you know what it is, is because they've been doing a quote unquote bad job. Now, have they been doing a bad job? No. They've been doing an amazing job because there's been difficult times. But on the flip side, nobody knew they existed five years ago. So, you know, before the pandemic. And why was that? Because when supply chain does its job, they're invisible. I mean, that's how it goes, right? Yeah. So what makes me like supply chain? I like supply chain because a little bit, you know, and I mean, you might find this hard to believe, but a little bit I just like to do my job, get paid and not have anybody know who the heck I am anyway. Right. And also I enjoy unsung hero moments. You know, I might have saved the day, but nobody needs to know. And so I enjoy that. And and also, I mean when you come out on a different page, I mean I used to always tell people, you know, it's the high school girls dream job, right? I talk on the phone all day. I buy stuff with other people's money. Somebody who pays my bills. Right? And if you get into, like, you know, something fun, like. I mean, I used to buy bulldozers and wheel loaders. I mean, you get to look at all this cool equipment, and then you get to talk to people about it, and then you get to buy it, right? Sometimes they even let you drive it.
George Read: [00:05:38] Like, what the hell? Right. But yeah, I mean, that's why you would get into supply chain. You get into supply chain because you walked into a sales guy's office and there was a giant pile of stuff that he was going to schmooze with. And then you think about it for a minute, you're like, wait a minute. The buyer would be the schmoozy. That would be the receiver of all that cool stuff, you know? And I mean, admittedly, when you work at a government job or these kinds of jobs, often you can't accept a lot of things. But, you know, it sure is nice to get some cool stuff every now and again. On the flip side, you have to understand about, you know, they don't do it for no reason. There's reciprocity. Right? People give you stuff, there's an obligation that goes with it. I mean, if you read Cialdini's book, you know, Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion, I've got the title right, talks about, you know, how when someone gives you something as a human, you have an automatic desire to give something back. And that is why the sales guy has a giant pile of schmooze stuff, because he's hoping he can give you, like, a pan and get $100,000 contract out of the deal.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:06:40] Exactly. Here's a notebook.
George Read: [00:06:42] Yeah, exactly. And it's, and I mean, don't get me wrong, they won't stop there. Like, some of them are, you know, they're willing to give you an all expenses paid Alaska fishing trip or this, that or the other thing. And I mean, as a buyer, you really have to control your brain. You have to be like, okay, no, no, I know that if you give me these things, I'm going to feel obligated to give you something back. And so then, you know, a simple solution to that is to discharge the obligation by giving them something, right? You know, like like I, every time I go for a lunch with a supplier, right, I always think before I go to the lunch, what is it that I will give them, right. And you know, and it could be as simple as just, you know, explaining to them about my company. Right. Because that's valuable to them, you know, or talking to them about who I know in the industry, because, you know, you're talking to a lot of companies that might be interested in their product, might not be my company, might be a different company. I can give them that name, right. You know, push them on to someone else. I really rattle it through that, you know, they don't have to, I don't have to give them much.
George Read: [00:07:42] It's like a $20 burger. Come on. Right. Like how much, how much are we offsetting here? Right. And the other bit is the brain is a funny thing. Your brain is a monkey brain. And it doesn't, it doesn't do the math. It does not do the math. So something that people struggle with is that they think, oh, well, they give me, like they're giving me a pan. Why would I give them a $100,000 contract? Well, if you haven't put it through your brain, that is exactly what you will do, because your emotional brain does not weigh a pan as more or less than $100,000 contract. It's just something for something, right? And so one of the things to do is when you look at that $20 burger, you know, well, what are you going to give them for the $20 burger. Obviously not $100,000 contract, but maybe what might, you know, something that you could give them might be, oh, the name of two of your suppliers who might be interested in their services. You know, there's a couple of leads. There you go, buddy. See you later. Right. You know, not that you don't necessarily want to do a deal with them, but you want to remove whatever obligation, reciprocity feelings that you have.
George Read: [00:08:49] I mean, I had one fellow who I dealt with who was an excellent buyer counterpart of mine, but he had been given $10,000 in free engineering from a company. And I mean, don't get me wrong, he wasn't given it, his company that he worked, you know, that we both worked for was given this $10,000 in free education, or free engineering. And he felt that because of that, they should receive a contract even though they were $200,000 more than the other guy.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:09:17] Oh, wow.
George Read: [00:09:17] And I'm like, well, let's just pay him for the engineering. Right. Like, why have we got to, why we got to do that? But on the flip side, he felt obligated. And because he felt obligated. And so this is one of the things that's funny. I mean, we have Sarbanes-Oxley and all these kinds of different anti-bribery things, right? But bribery can be anything. And there's no way to like, it doesn't have to come in a manila envelope or in a briefcase or in a, it can be anything. It could be free engineering for the company you work at.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:09:50] It's the let me take you for lunch. What can you do over here?
George Read: [00:09:53] Yeah, exactly. And you feel obligated. So reciprocity is funny like that. It's a really funny thing. But anyway, there's this, I guess you know, what I say about that is don't listen to me. Robert Cialdini has a much better book on it. It's got way more details. And that's a that's a good read. And I would recommend anybody who's in the profession, who's interested in getting in the profession, yeah. Read Cialdini. That's certainly worth it.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:10:17] I want to go back to when you talk about unsung heroes or unsung hero moments, can you think of a moment that for yourself is one of those moments?
George Read: [00:10:30] Oh unsung heroes. Well, that. Well, I mean, it happens all the time.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:10:38] Exactly. I know it does. It really does.
George Read: [00:10:40] Like, I mean, but I'll give you a really simple one. This is just really, really simple. So we're out of, so we have a giant box of white screws and we have no beige screws. Right. So we have no beige screws. So what are we going to do. Because oh my god it's like six weeks to get new beige screws. Beige screw painting is a big deal blah blah blah blah blah blah blah, right? Well, you know you talk to the guy on the line, how many beige screws do we need? Well, we need 24. You need 24 beige screws. That's what you need? 24? 24 base screws is what's causing this crisis and all that. It's like, okay, sure. So I walked down to receiving. I grab a can of beige spray paint. Funny, we have some. I grabbed 24 white screws. I stick them into some scrap styrofoam. I spray paint them. Ta da! You know, and because I'm a good guy, I do like 30 or I think I did about 30 of them. Right? Because, you know, like, maybe you lose or know you lose a couple, right. Walk down to the line. Oh, I just happened to find this bag of 24 beige screws. Hooray! I've saved the day. Do I tell him I painted them? No. Do I tell him what I had to go through? No, but, and was it a big deal? No, but. And am I going to get a pat on the back for it? No. Is anybody going to even know that I did it except for the guy on the line who was freaking out? No, but the windows are going to ship.
George Read: [00:12:05] The product is going to go out the door. Everybody's going to be happy. Nothing to see here. And it's the same again and again. Like you do this stuff. You, you, you know, you spend all day, you know, you spend a week and a half phoning on a shipment again and again and again. And the shipment arrives on Thursday at 9 a.m., which is when you needed it. And it comes in and they unload it and they put it on the shelf. And does anybody know that for the last two, three weeks, you've been biting your nails and phoning the vendor every 15 minutes to make sure that, you know, clearing all the issues? No, nobody knows and nobody cares. And you know what? It doesn't matter. But the truth of the matter is that then everything flows and you just sit at your desk and smile, right? And a lot of it is that, like being an unsung hero is about getting ahead of the ball, right? Getting ahead of the ball, solving problems like, I mean there's, you can get these supply chain t shirts that's like solving problems you don't know you have before you know you have them. And it's like, yeah, that's exactly, that's exactly what we do. Like months in advance, I'm calling on stuff that you don't even know you're out of yet. And why am I doing that? I'm doing that because that's my job. That's what we do.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:13:19] Well, in seeing so far into the future and being able to see that sometimes...
George Read: [00:13:23] Yeah, yeah.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:13:25] ... those pieces.
George Read: [00:13:26] And sometimes you can't. Some, like I mean, the best laid plans of mice and men, and sometimes like, you know, during the Covid pandemic, you know, things start to, they just go sideways like, and it's usually when things go sideways like to a level of 2 or 3 like that, it it starts to be like OMG, like what the heck? And I mean like, you know, we put stuff on boats. I was working for a company that we were shipping technology out of China, shipping it into Port and Rotterdam, and we put it on boats and yeah, we put it on that, remember that lovely ship in the Suez Canal that went sideways, right? I had product on that ship and then there was a, you know, and all the other ships that were in the backlog, that were in the traffic jam behind the ship. And then when the Egyptian government finally pulled that ship into the, into what was it, the Lake of Tears? I think it was called Lake of Bitter Tears. They parked the ship in the Lake of Bitter Tears because they wanted, they wanted payment, $1 billion from the insurance companies before they would release anything from the boat. And because it had backed up all the shipping and cost them all this money because they hadn't made, anyway, long story short, is like, even when you get the boat free, it's like, oh yeah, now we have to wait for the insurance and yeah.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:14:44] Did you eventually ever get that?
George Read: [00:14:46] All the product came through, but it was months and months after we'd shipped it. And so then we got smart and we put everything on a train to run it through Russia. It's like, woo hoo! We'll run it through Russia. This will be smarter. China through Russia to Europe, and then Russia invades the Ukraine and all the borders are closed. And we have, anyway, our train came through, in that case, we did negotiate it through. It was already on the rail. It was already coming, blah, blah blah. We got our train. Woo hoo! But you know I'm not going to send another train. So now I'm back to do I send it on boats which are going to get stuck in the Suez Canal or do I, anyway, it's just, it's ongoing. Right. It's ongoing. You, the best laid plans of mice and men and you just have no idea.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:15:29] Yeah, exactly. The other issue, too, is if you'd taken it the other way, you maybe you would have gone through the Panama Canal. But, you know, now there's, you know, different issues happening there too.
George Read: [00:15:41] Oh, yeah. Yeah. Nothing works. I mean, we were shipping a lot through the Port of Long Beach and one month's transport from China became three months because the Port of Long Beach was so backed up. Because...
Bryndis Whitson: [00:15:52] It was hugely backed up.
George Read: [00:15:53] Yeah. Well, because Covid basically had the effect of a rolling strike on the port. So like, you know, you might have ten unloading warehouses, but one of them's got Covid. So now you have nine unloading warehouses, right. So instead of unloading, you know, ten ships a day. Now you're unloading nine ships a day, which means one ship is backed up and it's like, okay, well, that's no big deal. But when it goes on for two years, it's not one ship. It's suddenly like 100 ships that are backed up. And so now, instead of a one month trip from China to Long Beach, it's a three month trip because it's one month across the ocean, plus two months waiting to unload. Right? And so then you think, oh, you know, no problem, no problem, we'll send stuff to Vancouver, right? We'll get, we'll send it up there. So. So yeah, we'd send ships up to Vancouver and then, and then of course, you know, like there's never any mudslides, right.
George Read: [00:16:38] So the railroads shut down and we've got stuff at the Port of Vancouver which we thought would be faster than bringing the stuff in through Long Beach, but oh, no, it's sitting in Vancouver and you're like, well, that's no problem. We're shipping south to the US, so just unload it and ship it. And they're like, yeah, except generally they don't know where your product is in that giant pile of 40 or more shipping containers. And then on top of that, they have to unload the other guy's stuff before they can get to your stuff. So in the Port of Vancouver, I know you'll be shocked, most of the stuff there is going to Canada, right? So it's going through, oh yeah, going by rail through mudslided out areas or by truck through mudslided out areas. So nothing's moving. So even though your stuff has docked in the one month time frame and you're like, woohoo, we got our stuff. It's just sitting on that ship until they can get the mudslides cleared so that you can unload your stuff and you end up with the same exact problem. You're just, you can just wait.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:17:39] Yeah. And you're just waiting in the backup.
George Read: [00:17:40] Yeah, you can wait. And if you're not happy with waiting, you could wait longer. It's always.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:17:46] Yeah, exactly.
George Read: [00:17:47] Oh, it's a good line.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:17:50] So a few other things that we've kind of talked about over the years and stuff like that, when you presented different talks and stuff like that, I really liked when we were always talking about negotiations. And about what can you do to make sure that something gets done? Because that always ends up causing, you know, stress on your end, stress on the other person's end. And, but there's, sometimes it's the little simple things you could actually do to just change things up.
George Read: [00:18:22] It's all, well, I mean, when I started learning to negotiate, I used to go down to the customer service office and, you know, anybody who was starting in supply chain, I recommend you talk to your customer service people because they are really your counterparts. They're the people that, you know, you're going to call customer service people and ask them to do stuff. So, you know, I went down to the customer service people and a fellow there, he gave me a magic phrase, which is, he says, well, just ask them, what do I need to do today to make this happen? And it's a really magical phrase, because one, you're not defining what you want them to do and you're not asking them to do anything. You're asking them to tell you what you need to do. Right. And you know, so, I mean, I've had lots of luck with this phrase over the years. And I think that anybody who's trying to get something out of a vendor would be wise to say to them, you know, what do I need to do today to make this happen? Or what do I need to do? And, you know, I mean, one of the first times I used the phrase, and this is why it sticks with me, is I was dealing with a fellow who was doing cutouts in doors for us and with specialty cutouts. And it was just a small shop. Right. And we needed product.
George Read: [00:19:38] And if the product didn't come, we were going to miss, we were going to either pay to merge on a boat or we were going to fly product to Japan. And both of those were going to be like, you know, probably 10,000 bucks, maybe more. And so I called this guy up and I'm like, okay, well, what do I need to do to get these by tomorrow? Right. You know, like we always want it now, now, now or tomorrow, right away. And the guy's like, well, you know, you're not going to want to do it. Nobody ever wants to do it. I'm like, well, you know hit me? What do I need to do? And I'm thinking, oh my God, like, what's this guy want? Like my first child, $10,000. Like, what's he going to need? He says, well, you're gonna have to pay a rush fee. It's 25 bucks. And I'm like, you need me to drive that over in cash right now? And obviously, you can tell I wasn't a very good negotiator in those days. But he's like, oh, no, no, you could just add a line to the PO and resend it. I'm like, okay. I'm like, that's two doors. Is that 50 bucks or 25? Again, not a very good negotiator. And he's like, no, no, 25 is sufficient. And so I put it on the PO and the guy put us to the front of the line. And we got our stuff the next day. Right. So 25 bucks for $10,000.
George Read: [00:20:54] Like, that's the kind of business I like to do every day, right? Like, I just. Hey, I'm gonna pay you 25 bucks. You know, I had the same experience with a fellow. You know, I called him, he was, I said, hey, I gotta have this stuff for Monday, which means I need you to ship it Sunday, which means I need you guys to work the weekend. You know what do I got to do to make that happen? And he said, well, you got to send me one of your company hats, and I want a case of beer. And I was like, okay, right.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:21:23] Yes, please.
George Read: [00:21:24] Yeah, okay. So I went to marketing and I got a hat and I went, I actually I talked to him and said, yeah, send me back to the front desk. And I talked to the lady on the front desk, the customer service lady. And I knew her because I dealt with her before, and I said, hey, can you go to the beer store and buy this guy a case of beer? And she's like, yeah, how are you gonna pay for it? I'm like, well, I'm going to put, I don't know, what do you want, 50 bucks for a rush fee on the PO, and you could just take it out of petty cash. She's like, sure. Done deal. So she walked, she walked, you know, they were really actually, their little shop was at a strip mall. She walked two doors over, bought a case of beer, brought it back, gave it to him.
George Read: [00:21:59] I mailed him a hat. And he got his entire shop, which was, you know, it's not a ton of people, but like, six guys worked overtime for the whole day Saturday. For 50 bucks. Right. And why did they do that? I mean, there's lots of reasons. One. Because, one because we were a good customer. Two, because I knew them. But more importantly because I said, what do I have to do? And let them set the price. Usually when you let people set their own prices and you let them set their own, most people, I'm going to say about 80%, some of them are shrewd, most of them aren't. Most times when you say, when can you get that done by, what will this cost me? People will fight with themselves in their own heads and give you a really, really reasonable deal. I mean, more than once I've said to people, when can you have that done by? And they'll be like, oh, this afternoon. And a little bit you have to slow people down and say, is that really realistic? Like, you know, can you, you know, can, oh yeah yeah, yeah I can do it. It's like okay fair enough. But lots of times, lots of times I'll be thinking in my head, if I can get this by a week from today, that'd be pretty good. And they're like, I'll have it tomorrow. And I'm like, oh, okay.
George Read: [00:23:13] Well, it's a good thing I didn't put my proposition forward first, right? Like the guy with the rush fee for 25 bucks. If I had told him 100, he'd have taken it. Right. So it's better for you to wait to see what they have to say. Because lots of times they'll fight with themselves in their own heads, and they'll come to you with a really good deal. And then, of course, it's your job to figure out if it's realistic. Because the problem, of course. I mean, I was talking to one of the guys at work about this. There's a problem, the problem is people lie, right? Like, they just, and they they lie, sometimes I don't even think that they're malicious. Most of them. Like, sometimes people are willfully malicious and they lie, but I don't think most people, I think they're just incompetent. Like, they just don't know. They have no idea. So they say something and I'm like, okay, but it's, but the problem is you got to take it to the bank and supply chain people deal in facts, right? Like you need facts. And I mean, it's trust but verify which really, I always tell people I work with and I even tell vendors I'm like, look, I'm a nice guy, but I gotta trust and verify, right? So which basically means you don't trust because if you're verifying, where's the trust? Right. I should just believe you. But no, I trust but verify.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:24:31] We always need to verify.
George Read: [00:24:33] We need to verify. I need a picture of it on the truck. I need a waybill. I need, I need, I need solid proof that you're actually doing this. Like, what is the reason I should believe you, right? And unfortunately, that's what you need to do. The truth of the matter is, is that salespeople will, while well-meaning most of the time, are paid for commission and performance, so they get paid for getting the sale. So of course they're going to tell you whatever they need to tell you to get the sale right. Even if they can't do it, they're going to say, we can do it, right? Because why wouldn't they? Because then they're going to go pound on their poor production guys and say, well, I got the deal. It's a $1 million deal. I got the deal. You have to do it. You have to do it. And the production guys are going to tell them exactly, you know, the old Warren Buffett line, right? Look, you can't get a baby in one month by getting nine women pregnant. It just doesn't work. Stuff takes time. That's how it is. You can't have it, you know, like, that's what happens, right? Like, stuff takes time. It takes, there's a certain amount of physical realities to the world. And I mean, yeah, I know with the creator economy and the internet and all that, that we're all in a world of symbols.
George Read: [00:25:51] And there are no actual goods. But you know, I still like to eat real food made out of like, potatoes and stuff. And I think that, and that's what happens, right? Like, you just, you can't get things magically. Right. Like they just don't appear. And so as a result, you got to trust but verify. You got to be like, hey, show me a picture of it on the truck. Show me the waybill. Show me that it's done. And let me talk to the guy who built it. You know what? Like, whatever. Like, get the details and the facts. Because more than once I've been told by vendors. Oh, yeah, yeah. No problem. 50,000 a month. And it's like, well, what's the capacity in your factory? Well, 50,000 a month. Do you have any other customers? Well, yeah we do. How much are they taking up? 30,000 a month. Okay. So have you got a plan for an expansion or can you only ship you 20,000 a month? Because if, you know, like that's. Were they lying? No, they weren't lying. Their capacity is 50,000 a month. They can make 50,000 a month. But are they going to give it all to me?
Bryndis Whitson: [00:26:49] No.
George Read: [00:26:50] Well, or maybe they are, but is it a shrewd business move for them? No. So, you know, it just depends. Right. Anyway.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:26:59] Well it's also knowing when things are coming and you know along that pipe, like you were saying when people, when things are going on to, show me that it's actually on the train, show me that it's on the truck. And sometimes things work out and sometimes they don't. And sometimes things, you think things are on the truck and or, you know, maybe...
George Read: [00:27:29] They think things are on the truck.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:27:30] Or maybe things got positioned in a way where they were safely on the truck and then they broke.
George Read: [00:27:39] Or. Yeah. No, exactly, exactly. I had a shipment of glass coming from China one time, and it was on a shipping container and the rigging on the crane let go, and it dropped from the top of the side of the ship, down to the down to the dock, and it was just a big smashed bin of glass. And what are you gonna do? Right. Like, what are you going to do? You're going to wait another three months for the next bin from China. That's what you're going to do because you don't have another choice, right? It's not, sometimes these things just that's the way the cookie crumbles. And I mean, if you've got a robust supply chain and you've made plans to deal with it, and I mean, this is the part about the unsung heroes. It's like, okay, so then what do you do? Well, you figure it out. That's what you do. You figure it out and and however you figure it out, you got to make choices. And like sometimes the answer is no. Like, sometimes that's just the way it is. The answer is no. It's like, no, you're not getting that. No, we can't produce it that quickly. No. Like sometimes that's the answer. But lots of times it's not. Lots of times you can come up with solutions and other choices to make things work better. And I mean, a lot of it's driven by complexity, right? I mean, when you're dealing with supply chain, the place where the, you know, the job is to reduce complexity, whether people know it or not, that's what you're trying to do.
George Read: [00:28:59] You're, you know, first you secure supply and then after you secure supply you try to reduce complexity. And I mean, you know, you got old Henry Ford and his you can have any color you want as long as it's black, right. Well, the reason for doing that is you're reducing complexity. Now, he's only got to worry about one kind of paint, one kind of whatever, one, you know, if he paints something, if he paints six fenders for a car that needs four, he can use the two on the next car because they're all black. There's nothing to, so you end up reducing complexity. And reducing complexity has a lot to do with making things the same. Right. Everything's black. Right. And also just taking steps out of the process. So it isn't as confusing or difficult. But that's where the money is. I mean that's how supply chain can be like streamlined and reduced. And of course, the problem in this era is everybody's got to have their own unique thing, and we've got to build everything, you know, specific to everybody and so on and so forth. But it's really a recipe for disaster, because the more complexity you add to a system, the more chance that the system is going to get fouled up and the more cost there is in the system.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:30:06] Well, one of the things that I always used to tell a lot of my students, and sometimes it came from some stories that we've talked about and stuff like that, and it was always the moment of whatever you're doing in your job, make sure you know this entire chain so that you personally know that it's going on from this truck, you know, on this truck, then it's going to get to here, then it's going to get on to this ship, and then it's going to go on to this port, and then it's going to go here. So you personally know exactly where it is. You might not be the person technically responsible for it, but if you are aware of wherever it is around the world, you can at least know those extra pieces. You can know also who's in charge of the insurance.
George Read: [00:30:59] Yeah, there's a real value in diving into like how does it work. Right. And you know I'm a big believer in go and see for yourself. You know if you can at all. You know like in terms of if you've got product coming into a manufacturing plant or you've got product coming into a factory, it's always good to take that time to find out, you know, where does it go? Right. And then beyond that, how did it get there? Where does it come from? Right. And the where does it come from? Yeah, exactly. All of the parts of where does it come from in the world, but also then mapping that supply chain on the back end. Right. What is it? What does it take to make this thing? Lots of times, if you can understand what is required to make the item, you know, like it needs this plastic resin. It needs this kind of steel. It needs... then you can start to learn about those commodities, and you can understand what it is that feeds the supply chain to make the thing that you're actually buying. And by understanding that, then you can get ahead of the ball because I mean, that's what it's really all about. You got to get ahead of the ball. Like if you know that steel prices increased and you know your product has a lot of steel, then you can expect your vendor is going to tell you that the price is going to go up because, well, steel went up and he's got to pay for that steel.
George Read: [00:32:10] So therefore, right. I mean it's it's the same for everybody everywhere. But we don't always realize it. Right. I mean, I know I've talked to, you know, right now we're having troubles with, you know, rent going up and mortgages going up and all these kinds of things and, you know, and I mean, of course, this is driven by the interest rate going up. And, you know, so many renters don't really seem to get that well, your rent went up because the landlord has to pay more for the mortgage. And that went up because the interest rate went up. So even though you're a renter and you think the mortgages don't affect you, they are a component of your rent. Like that's how it works. And with a lot of supply chain people I think that's, like that's, when you get deeper into the game, that's what you got to understand. You got to understand that the increase in steel price drives the, you know, drives what the vendor has to pay.
George Read: [00:33:00] And another thing that I learned early on in my career that is often lost on everyone is the only place the vendor has to get money from is you, right? There's no magic money. Like, if his steel price goes up, right, then he's got to charge you more for the product. He just has to. Right. And you can go to another vendor being like, can you do it cheaper? Well, and maybe they can, but it's not because steel is cheaper, it's because they've got some other efficiencies. And if somebody tells you they'll do it for less then the cost of the steel price, which has happened to me on a couple of quotes, don't buy from that guy. Don't buy from that guy. Like if they tell you, I mean, we had a, I had a quote one time and I can't remember if it was 100,000 pounds of steel or something like this, and to make the skid that we wanted to make. Right. And I knew, you know, 100,000 times X amount of steel means the price would be this. And the total price for production of the whole thing was lower than the price of the actual steel. So I'm like, so of course my project manager was like, let's go with this guy. And I'm like, yeah, that we're not doing that.
George Read: [00:33:59] And he's like, why would you not do that? I'm like, because because they're wrong. They've done their math wrong, right? And we can ask them to give us a new bid where they calculate the price of steel correctly. But the truth of the matter is these three other guys, even though they're like double and triple what this guy is, they have to be because they're going to pay for the steel. And I mean, like, the vendor has no other place to get money from but you. Right? And if they aren't going to get enough money for the job, then the next thing they're going to do is start weaseling and causing you troubles and blah, blah, blah. And you just don't, you just don't need that. Right? It's just it's, you know, like securing supply is what it's all about and if, having a vendor that doesn't perform is worse than having no vendor at all. I mean, it's funny because, like, I don't know how many times in my career people have been like, these guys are way cheaper. Let's go with them. And like, yeah, but they don't have any. They don't have any material to sell us. So it doesn't matter if they're like five bucks, they don't have any. So they don't act like...
Bryndis Whitson: [00:35:015] They're just restarting their supply chain. Yeah.
George Read: [00:35:03] Well or they're going to be three more weeks before they get stuff like, we need stuff today. This guy's ten bucks. Those guys are five bucks. But the $5 guys don't have any. So our choices are the $10 guy or the $12 guy. Which one do you like? Because they have supply and and it's difficult for people to understand this because in North America, we so often exist in a world where, like, you want to buy a Coke, drive to 7-Eleven, buy a Coke, drive to Safeway, buy a Coke, and they'll all have 50 bottles of Coke or ten bottles of Coke. You can get a bottle of Coke, no problem. Right? Okay. Doesn't work so well when you're in a world where you're looking for a specific special order screw. Right. Like, you know, we used to buy these specific special order screws, and we bought them because they were dirt cheap, and they were really good. And every year in July and August, I would have trouble. And anyway, and I would be chasing all over for these screws, and anyway, finally I got to the guy who made them, the manufacturer. Right. And he's like, oh yeah, yeah, I make millions of those.
George Read: [00:36:05] Like I push thousands, you know, tons and tons and tons. I'm like, okay, well, can you sell me a box? He's like, no. And I'm like, what do you mean no? And he's like, well, in July and August, the US government refits their fleets in Hawaii. And they use these screws for the Navy.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:36:24] Wow.
George Read: [00:36:25] And I sell them a million at a time. Like, not even joking. And he said, so I got machines and he says any other time of the year I got capacity, but July and August these guys take these screws like there's no tomorrow. And as soon as I learned that, it's like, okay, fair enough, fair enough. Right. Now, beg borrow, steal, I got some screws. Right. Because somebody's got some hiding somewhere. But the next year, before the rush in Hawaii, I bought myself a giant pallet of screws to hold me for three months. Right. And as soon as I started doing that, we never had the problem again. Right. Because he could always give them to me in January, February and March. No problem. He's got big machines. He can run them. No problem. And they give them to me for dirt cheap.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:37:09] And as long as you got the capacity to store them, you're good.
George Read: [00:37:12] Exactly. And what's a pallet of screws anyway? Right. But, you know, I mean, that is a point, right? You know, you got carrying costs, and whenever you put stuff on the shelf, it's going to cost you money. And understanding your sunk costs is difficult.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:37:22] But knowing those things too, like we talk and have heard occasionally, especially during the pandemic, there was a lot of warehouse shortages and different things like that. So capacity became a bit of an issue. Maybe not in all industries, but definitely in some too. So knowing how much space you've got to actually store all of those products too.
George Read: [00:37:45] Oh yeah. Well, it's always a trade off, right? It's a trade off between how much do you want to sit on? And as soon as you sit on it then you've got carrying costs and those are issues like how much does it cost to light a heated counter to insure it or whatever. And beyond that your obsolescence risk. Like if you're in groceries, you know, or whatever, you can't stockpile milk. It goes bad, right? Like there's just, there's nothing you can do with that. Right? So you've got to keep the flow flowing, right. And it's the same. I mean, meat, you can a little bit because you can freeze it. You know, there's stuff you can do with stuff but lots of cases, yeah, you just, you may or may not be able to stockpile it. And the other bit is even with the screws and then engineering makes a change and we don't need half inch screws. We need three quarter inch screws. And guess what? That giant pile of screws is now garbage. And then you're into selling dead stock and, well, you're going to get pennies on the dollar then, right? So it's a mistake. But I mean, it just is what you do. Right.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:38:44] Do you find working within supply chain within Canada different than like if you're shipping things throughout the US or is there a little bit of difference or is it pretty much very similar?
George Read: [00:38:55] Well, there's a whole bunch of stuff in that particular question, like dealing with other countries is always different, and it's always different because there's, it's always different because there are different rules in every country. Every country has got different rules.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:39:11] Completely. And every province sometimes has different rules.
George Read: [00:39:14] Exactly, exactly. So there's always little stuff like that. But I think the bigger issue actually when dealing with other places is more to do with the cultural issues. Right? Like in some places, like people won't realize this, but the Americans are different from the Canadians.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:39:30] They are.
George Read: [00:39:30] Right. They do business a different way. They think about things a different way. And the things you have to say to Americans are slightly different from what you have to say to Canadians. Things you have to say to Latin Americans, you know, like Mexicans, Central Americans, South Americans are very different from the things you have to say to Americans or to Canadians and Americans. And again, there's a difference between them and what you deal with in Southeast Asia and China and all parts of the world have their own cultural things. And while there are a lot of similarities, you know, everybody wants to make money, everybody wants to move forward, blah, blah, blah. Lots of times you're really wise to get somebody from that place to help you. Right. Or somebody with those insights because, and I mean, there's the simple one's just straight ahead language. Right? People are more likely to do a deal with someone who speaks the same language. But beyond that, there's also just, like when I dealt with Southeast Asia, a lot of those cultures don't like to say no. They just don't like to say no. And here in North America, we're used to people will say no, right? And so, I mean, heck, in negotiation training, I mean, Jim Camp has a wonderful book Start With No, but what if you're dealing with somebody who doesn't say no. Then how do you start with no, because they won't even say no.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:40:51] No. Exactly.
George Read: [00:40:51] So then you're into like okay, so what do we do here. So and being able to hear the nuances in the language and in South America and Central America, Latin America, you deal with people who are, you know, they really want to make a personal connection. They want to know who you are. They want to be friends before they'll do business. Right? And if you're used to dealing with Canadians and Americans, it's like, hey, I want five of these by Thursday. Sure, you can have them on Thursday. Thanks. I don't even know what the guy's name was. Right. Whereas in Central America, if I don't know what church they go to or what their mom's name is, or if they're Catholic or, you know, whatever, right? Like, there's, I mean, there's a funny story. My, I had a friend I worked with, and he was from Mexico, and I was trying to buy stuff in the Mexican area, and I was just, like, doing a bad job, and I wasn't doing a bad job because I didn't know what I was doing. I was doing a bad job because I was approaching them as a Canadian. Right? I was like, hi, I want this, this size, by here.
George Read: [00:41:52] And I was getting nothing out of these people. So I was just like, look, maybe you can do it because you can speak Spanish. So he's on the phone for like an hour and a half with these people. Like an hour and a half. We're trying to buy like five pieces of glass. Like, what the heck? Anyway, so on for an hour and a half. So I finally he gets done and I'm like, so how was that? He's like, oh yeah, no, I talked to this lady, Maria, and she comes from the same town as my mom, and her grandma's really sick and all this stuff's going on, and she's got a dog with a bad leg and so on, and they go to the same church my mom used to go to, and, oh, I felt real bad for her. And I was like, okay, whoa, whoa. Like, did we get the glass? Oh, yeah. Yeah, she's going to ship that don't worry about that. But listen, her grandma's really sick, right? And I'm like, okay, so I just don't get it. Like I just don't get it. And don't get me wrong, I have nothing against what he's doing. He got the product to ship. He did the right thing. He made it work.
George Read: [00:42:41] Right. And thank you. Right. But on the flip side, if you think I'm going to sit on the phone for an hour and a half and listen about her grandma and her dog and her sister and church and blah, blah, blah, I'm just not going to do it. And the reason I'm not going to do it is because not because I don't care, but because I'm from Canada and I don't see that as work. And so I would feel like I was wasting time. I would feel, you know, no, don't get me wrong, you do what you got to do to make these things happen. And when you're dealing with other cultures, I mean, the thing to do is to take a step back, listen to what they're saying, and really listen. Right. And feed it back to them. You know, paraphrase, do all that active listening stuff that you're supposed to do. And by the way, if you don't have any training in active listening, listeners out there in listening land, look into it. Right. You know, learning to paraphrase what people say. Learning to mirror what they say. Learning to give it back to them. You can work your way through these cross-cultural differences because they will tell you. Or they'll give you at least some hints as to what you're doing wrong.
George Read: [00:43:46] Right? I mean, I remember, I remember I had a buddy and he was even more business than I was. And he used to piss people off in Canada. And he had one vendor who was like, would you call, you never ask anything. You never say how's my wife? How's my kids? How's my dog? You just you want your stuff and that's it. That's a, you know, I think you should be a little more like listen, we've done business for ten years now. I think you should be a little more friendly. So my buddy's like, no problem, no problem. Next time he calls him, he's like, how's your wife? How's your kid? How's your dog? Yeah. Okay. I need some stuff. And the two of them laughed, right? Yeah. And then they talked for a couple of minutes. Right. But he started every call with that guy from then on with how's your wife, how's your kid, how's your dog? He doesn't even wait for an answer. He was just like. I was like, okay, well, but, you know, you got to make people laugh. You got to be, you know, well, you don't gotta make anybody laugh, but...
Bryndis Whitson: [00:44:42] But it does help.
George Read: [00:44:44] Well, it's I mean, think about what kind of a day you want to have. Do you want to have a fun day where you talk to friends, or do you want to have a rough day where you're fighting people? And I mean, supply chain doesn't have to be, well, it shouldn't be about having a rough day. It shouldn't be about grinding people, especially because, and this is something that people get really confused about with negotiations. A lot of people go into negotiations, and they assume that they got to get the best deal that they can, because there's going to be no more deals. And sometimes that's true, but most of the time it's not. Most of the time you're in a relationship with someone, it's going to be an ongoing relationship and you need to make that a good relationship because this isn't the last time you're going to talk to them. So if you piss them off today, right, then what's going to happen when you call them tomorrow or next week or five weeks from now? Because you need these people, they supply the product, and you're not going to be in the same situation that people are in their day to day lives, right? Like, you know, I take Coke example, you can go to 7-Eleven, you can go to Safeway, you can go to Co-op, you can go to Save-On-Foods, you can go, there's 50 places you can buy a Coke.
George Read: [00:45:54] If you piss off the guy at the 7-Eleven, chances are he's not even going to be working there next week. It's a dead end job, right? But in supply chain, it's not always the same. Lots of times there's only one guy who sells this, and not only is there only one guy who sells this, or maybe there's ten guys that sell this, but you know what they're all buddies. And if you piss off guy number A, the rest of them aren't going to do business with you. Why? Oh, well, he's a jerk, right? So, no, you got to, you got to make friends. You got to get along. You got to be personable, blah blah blah. Now how personable you got to be. You ain't got to be that personable. Don't get me wrong. Even I can do it, right?
Bryndis Whitson: [00:46:05] Yeah, well, I think sometimes the word negotiation for some people gets them really nervous, just in the idea of it. Is there kind of tips or tricks that you have for people when they're first, when they're nervous about the idea of negotiation?
George Read: [00:46:30] Well, the first thing to remember is that you're doing it all the time already. So don't get hung up on the word. And then the second piece, I think, and I think this is really, you know, an important point, negotiation is really a collection of skills. So people are like, oh, we're going to negotiate. Yeah okay. But there's, it's a collection of skills. Like it's listening to the other person. Right. It's crafting your own message in a way that's appropriate. It's under, it's understanding, you know, things like, you know, best alternative to a negotiated agreement. It's what you do in the prep side of things. It's what you do during the discussion and it's what you do after the negotiation. Because like, you know, compliance can fall apart at the end, right? Like, you know, I mean, there's this great Dilbert comic with the guys from Albonia, and they're waving these little papers, pieces of paper in there, and they're like, they're like, don't worry, we have signed these papers so we will not sell you out. We signed the papers. They will stop us. Wink, wink. And you're just like, yeah, you don't have any compliance, right? Like, you gotta, you have to get compliance. And how do you get compliance? Well, you have, the other side has to want to do it, right. Well why do they want to do it. Well, how did you craft the deal so that they want to do it? Well, the way you craft the deal is you want to do it, is you start with active listening, right where you learn about what do they want? What do they need? What's their worldview. Right. Like in the case of the lady in Mexico and the few pieces of glass.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:48:18] Yeah.
George Read: [00:48:19] She doesn't give a rat's bum about the 20 bucks that she's going to make on these pieces of glass, because really, who cares. But she's got a friend in Canada that she's got to perform for, and so she's going to do it because she's got a friend in Canada. Right? And not only that, but like, her mother knows his mother, so. Oh my God, what if...
Bryndis Whitson: [00:48:39] Because the world's a small world.
George Read: [00:48:40] So what if you screw this up? But now not everybody's going to do it because your mother knows their mother, right? Like you got to, but what is the reason that's going to drive the compliance. What's driving compliance. Right. And admittedly, in that Mexico situation, that was why I fell down. Right. My mother doesn't know her mother. Right. Or, and I don't care about her grandma and her dog and all that. So a little bit, so why should she care about my glass? That's how she's coming to the table. That's how that lady's coming to the table. And is it right? Is it wrong? I'll tell you right now, this is a big thing, there's no right or wrong. They're not wrong. That's their worldview. And you might think their worldview is crazy, but it doesn't make it not their worldview. Right. And so you got to move to a place where you can understand their worldview, at least enough to craft a deal where they're going to want to have compliance. Right. And sometimes that means money, and sometimes it means, you know, saving them time.
George Read: [00:49:36] And there's all these, you know, like I always look at money, time, feeling safe, feeling special, education as the currencies or categories payment. I mean, I'm sure you've heard that from me before, but what is it that's creating compliance? Because if there's no compliance created, then they're not going to do it. It's just a piece of paper that they signed. Right. And you'll be like, well, you know, I can get the lawyers involved and I can this and I can that. Yeah, sure you can. But can you? Especially internationally. Right. How are you going to bring your lawyers to bear on a company that's in another country where they don't recognize our jurisdiction or where, you know, I mean, as one of my friends said to me, never put anything in Texas, man, because they just vote side with the Texans. That's it. They just side with the Texans. Whatever you did wrong, Texan wins. And it's like, well, and that's first world country in the United States. You think you could do a...
Bryndis Whitson: [00:50:41] Yeah.
George Read: [00:50:42] No. Forget it. Forget it. Because it's not how they think. It's not their cultural position, blah blah blah. So, but if you're counting on the law to back you up, you don't have a deal. Figure out another way. Because the law, while the law can back you up in some situations and there's some reason, you know, blah, blah, blah, there's a reason we signed these contracts. But lots of times, no, but you don't want to go there. It's too expensive, costs too much, takes too long, blah blah blah. You want people to comply because they want to comply. Right. And that could be as simple as because they want the next order.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:51:19] Yeah. And just to review again the 4 or 5 pieces that, you know, for compliance, again I get time...
George Read: [00:51:29] Yeah. So currencies, I talk a little about currency. So money, it's obvious everybody knows what money is. Time, you can give people time. That's one of the things you can give them. And that can have to do with how quickly you pay them or how much time it takes to do business with you, all these kinds of things. I mean, look at Tim Hortons over, say, Starbucks. Why do people go to Tim's? Because they can go through the drive through, take them five minutes. If they go to Starbucks, they know they're going to be there for 20. Why is that? Because Starbucks is slower but even both of those coffee shops have to be reasonably quick because otherwise you won't do it. You're headed from home to work. You want a coffee? You have ten minutes.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:52:08] If that.
George Read: [00:52:10] Or whatever. Right? Like you don't have, you don't have an hour, right? So unless they're fast enough, you don't get... so, you know, there's money, there's time, there's feeling special, right? I mean, this is what drives all of the volunteer activities. You know, like, how does the church get people to do these things? Well they're doing it for the greater glory of God? Well, yes, but they're doing it because they feel good about supporting the greater glory of God.
George Read: [00:52:35] That's the part that they skip over when they tell you they're doing it for the greater glory of God. They feel good about doing stuff for the greater. And should they? Should they not? That's not for me to say, but the point is, is that people do stuff because they can feel special. So say thank you. Right. It makes people feel special. You know, like, send people thank you cards, tell them, you know, send flowers. There's all kinds of things you can do, right? If someone does a good job for you, send them an email that says thank you. Include their boss and they might get a raise. Right. Like make people feel special. Right. Feeling safe. Right. Feeling safe is a huge one. People will do stuff. I mean, I like to say feeling safe, but I mean, really, it comes down to fear. Remove their fear. Make them not afraid, right? Or in some cases, maybe make them afraid. But this is a currency you can pay people in. People want to do business with people where they feel like, if I do this business, I'll be safe, right? Right. Which is huge. It's huge, it's huge. It's, people will work their butts off to make sure that they feel safe. Right. And if you can make them feel safe by using your products and what would they might not feel safe about? Well, they might not feel safe because they might be worried that they're not going to get paid.
George Read: [00:53:47] They might not feel safe because they might be physically threatened. Right. I don't like dropping off at your warehouse. There are no lights, and you insist I drop off in the middle of the night. I don't want to do that. Right. Or there's all kinds of things. And so, you know, can you can you make them feel safe? And then education. People will work for education. I mean, there's all these institutions that people pay tons of money to take courses, right? I mean, and why do apprentices work for less than journeymen? Well, the reason is, is because supposedly they're getting some education out of the deal, which will then make them into journeymen, and then they can sell that for more money. So yeah, people will work for, you know, they'll work for education because they can sell it, you know. And anyway, so I always look at the five currencies whenever I'm examining a deal, and I try to listen to the other side and I try to think, okay, well, do they need money? Do they need time? Do they need feeling safe? Do they need feeling special? Do they need education and when, and I think it's important to understand that the more wealthy and better off a company is, the less chance that they're looking for the money.
George Read: [00:54:55] Lots of people don't, lots of people don't understand that. Right? That lots of times, you know, if they've got lots of money, then why do they, you know, like whatever they have lots of is probably not the thing they're after. If they've got lots of time, then they can probably give away some time. Now admittedly, time is one of those things they're not making any more of. You only get X.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:55:15] Yeah, you only get that finite.
George Read: [00:55:17] So it's not always there. But I mean if someone feels pretty good about themselves, they feel special, then maybe they need cash, right? But anyway, my point is those are the currencies you pay people in. And understanding the currencies will help you to craft a deal, right? Right. Where you can get compliance because you get compliance because somebody wants to do it. Well, why do they want to do it? Well, they want to do it because they're going to get what they, they're going to get something out of it. Well what are they going to get? Right. What are they going to get. So yeah. Yeah. That's how you put a deal together I guess. Anyway. part of it.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:55:55] Mhm. Well I really appreciate, I think there's enough, so many different things we've been talking about too. Is there anything that has suddenly sparked your interest or anything else that you think oh well there's one more thing that I just wanted to say.
George Read: [00:56:11] Well, you know me, Bryndis.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:56:12] I know you could talk forever.
George Read: [00:56:14] So five more things, but no, I think this is a, I think this is a pretty good conversation. And hopefully it'll be interesting to somebody besides you and me.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:56:22] Exactly. Hopefully. Fingers crossed. All right. Thank you so much.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:56:27] Thank you for listening to this Zebras to Apples podcast episode. I hope you enjoyed the showcase of the fun and fascinating stories of supply chain logistics. If you like this episode, I would love it if you could give it a rating and review. For more information about this topic, you can go to ZebrasToApples.com or follow Zebras to Apples on the social media platform of your choosing, whether that's Instagram, Facebook, Twitter/X, BlueSky or LinkedIn. You can support the show on Patreon. Also, check out the show notes below. Please join me again for another episode of Zebras to Apples. Have a wonderful day!