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Come join us as we discuss everything open source with guests that are pillars in the industry. Welcome to The Secret Sauce.
Welcome back to the show. We're about to learn the secret sauce. Excellent. Gregor, how you doing?
Gregor Martynus:I'm doing great. Thank you for having me today.
Bdougie:Yeah. Thanks for coming over. You're like one of the the few engineers I knew that were in LA. You've been here for a while.
Gregor Martynus:We moved here in 2016. Yeah. So I mean, what is time? But, yeah. We left the city for 2 years during COVID because of our kids.
Gregor Martynus:But, yeah, it's it's been a while. And there are plenty of developers here. You have to come around? Yeah.
Bdougie:I I'm I'm making my rounds. We had a a quite a few people come through since we've been here. The beauty about this podcast is you have no idea what location we're on because it's just a white wall. Yeah. It's perfect.
Bdougie:But rather than talk behind the behind the secret sauce, let's talk about you and we usually start with the intro. Just tell the audience who who are you and what do you do?
Gregor Martynus:So hey. I'm Gregor. I'm a a staff software engineer at in GitHub right now. I work remotely my whole life and only for the past year as an employee. Before that, independently as a, you know, founder and contractor.
Gregor Martynus:And I care very deeply about open source, which is why I care about GitHub, which is why, I guess, I ended up there. Yeah. And I'm, yeah. Happy to talk more about that.
Bdougie:Yeah. I would love to talk about that. So I I would love to know, like, talk of how you got to where are today. So, like, we can zoom back 10 years ago. I don't know if 10 years is a good point.
Bdougie:Yeah. But you how did you get involved in open source? Just in general.
Gregor Martynus:I let's go back to, like, 2,011 ish, I think, is when I started to get more involved into open source. I kind of just ended up another job, and I wanted to see what is out there. And that was I am a web developer. I kind of looked, okay, what are like the new APIs? And there was local storage and cache manifest.
Gregor Martynus:So, hey, we can build, like, offline apps in the browser now, that I found very fascinating. And I built, like, minutes IO, this little like, a meeting, application.
Bdougie:Oh, I don't think I've I've heard of
Gregor Martynus:that one. Minutes. Io, it's still running. I hired my mom. You know, it's paying her.
Gregor Martynus:So I might get back to it eventually.
Bdougie:Oh, it's just, like, kinda on the shelf because running
Gregor Martynus:It's like It's
Bdougie:like it's
Gregor Martynus:like a little software as a service. I don't have the time right now to, like, invest more into it. Yeah. But it might still happen. But what happened is that I needed a database for it.
Gregor Martynus:Because in the beginning, it worked offline. But, eventually, people wanted accounts. They just don't want didn't want to lose all their data when they, you know, cleared the browser's cache. Yeah. And the moment you you have an offline app which synchronizes, then you have the problem of synchronization.
Gregor Martynus:So I started out as a Rails app, moved the Rails back end of Postgres, and then I looked for a database system that would fit. And that was CouchDB. CouchDB is a database that replicates it's basically built around very, very good, peer to peer synchronization. So I found that, and I gotten pretty far, but there were, like, some things missing. So I filled in the gaps with Node.
Gregor Martynus:Js, with a Node. Js middleware to create, like, a sign up flow and, you know, user authentication, authorization, data sharing, and stuff like that. And I went to a CouchCon first in San Francisco. Like, that was summer of 2013, I think, Or 11. No.
Gregor Martynus:That was 11. We lived there for a short moment. And then in Berlin, where I met, Jan Leonard, like, the, I think it's the product manager still of co Apache CouchDB. And he loved my setup of CouchDB in minutes. And he said, like, this is exactly what we were missing, and we should make this a thing.
Gregor Martynus:So together, we created a project that eventually became Hoody, which is a JavaScript database back end.
Bdougie:Well, I didn't I didn't know that that correlation to the story of Hoody which is amazing that you you okay. So you built this offline experience for Node developers.
Gregor Martynus:Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. So basically, we we extracted the back end part, including, like, you know, the front end client from Innit. Io and turn it into its own open source project.
Gregor Martynus:And I didn't know anything about open source, but Jan was already very involved, both in open source through Apache, but also in just the JavaScript community. Like, he, around the time, created jscon for you with with some of of his friends. And that, as we know, is, like, a very great success story in terms of community organized, events that are very inclusive, that care very deeply, about everyone involved. So he applied the learnings of that into Hoodie. So Hoody in 2011 or 12, from the get go, we put a lot of priority into creating an inclusive space as an open source project.
Gregor Martynus:So we had, like, a code of conduct right away, which at that time was just not a thing. Like, you know, the discussions only started to happen. There was a lot of friction about it as we started to adding code of conduct into different tech communities. And yeah. So
Bdougie:Wait. Is that is that why the j s kofEU code of contact is, like, the one everyone uses?
Gregor Martynus:No. I don't know if that's the case, but I think it was for a long time. Yeah. I mean that they
Bdougie:Our open sauce's code of conduct was sourced from the JSCoffeeU. Yeah. Because, like, back in 2018, it was like the one that everyone cited as, like, the example. Yeah. And, okay.
Bdougie:So the connection is really making sense for me right now.
Gregor Martynus:Yeah. So, you know, through that, we also were kind of very involved in the JavaScript community already. And we found a few more, you know, people around us who kind of joined Hoodie, and we kind of hacked away with it. And, eventually, we came, to the point where we had to figure out, funding. Like, how do we fund an open source project?
Gregor Martynus:And 10 years later, it got much better. Yeah. But it's still not an unsolved problem. But, basically, our path was to create a company. So we found that Neighbourhoodie, which still exists today in Berlin, you know, they they are still amazing about building solutions around offline first, environments.
Gregor Martynus:And we founded it with, basically, the core team of of Hudi. So we tried to do, like, you know, contracting work and, and have some income and at the same time use that revenue to build out, Hoodie further as an open source project.
Bdougie:Excellent. Yeah. And it was, I I could see the branding in my head and it had, like, the dog with the hoodie on.
Gregor Martynus:Yeah. Yeah. It's amazing. It has amazing branding. And the open source project, I think, had very big reach, not because of its technology at all.
Gregor Martynus:Like, we from the beginning, you know, we had a great, kind of project product manager and content creator, Lena Reinhardt, you know, who really made a great career in tech. And then because of her, also, others, you know, whom we then invited and also paid to, like, create these little cute dogs, like, the low profile dog. They all have their names and stories and everything, which also was very intentional. Like, was created because this is how we wanted people to feel that they are coming to the space and they're not, like, developers and then the others. You know, there is, like, the dogs, dogs, chicken, and and there is, like, the low profile dog.
Gregor Martynus:And, oh my god, I don't know what else was there. But it was intentional about everyone is welcome and creating pathways for all kinds of different contributions and making clear that it's not developers and, like, coders and non coding contributions. It's that, like, it's under it's on eye height. Like, it's developers, designers, content creators, and so on. Yeah.
Gregor Martynus:Everything making everything equally important. So I, like, took away a lot from that throughout my entire career.
Bdougie:I mean, there are quite a few projects who I could cite success on just by their sheer brand and their their experience in the industry or as you onboard onto the project. Like, there's an experience. Like, it's welcoming or there's a there's a a low profile dog or a sticker that you you found at a conference. And at the end of the day, like, I think I don't know if this is your opinion, but I my opinion is that open source to successful projects tend to have a bit more marketing. And if it's not intentional marketing, it's the engineering.
Bdougie:Like, it markets itself Mhmm. Because it show it shows up in a place that people wanna talk about it And, where offline applications back in, 2011 to 2015, like, maybe not thing that everyone was interested in or needed at the time, people got they were attracted to that, to the stickers Yeah. The dog and etcetera.
Gregor Martynus:And there are a lot of people who want to contribute to Open Source. They just have to go where they are and fine tune. You know? And when you're on open source project, you have an interesting technology project, like, there's opensourcedesign.org, I think, still, and I'm sure a lot of other communities Aerofox
Bdougie:runs it, I believe, or is that the different program?
Gregor Martynus:I don't know. Yeah. But, you know, invite these people to your project. Yeah. Make it nice for them to be there.
Gregor Martynus:Make them feel appreciated. Or if you have funding, you know, as a company, yeah, sure. Pay your people. But there is a lot of people who would like to get involved in open source as a means to grow personally, to, like, meet other people outside of their work, and other circles, below their portfolio. You know, there are many reasons for it.
Gregor Martynus:And, by making it more inclusive to contributors, our encoders, you just can tap a whole new world, of people and perspectives. And when you, you know, manage to make them excited about your mission, what trying to achieve, you will have a much bigger reach. Yeah. I know it's just a lot of fun, I think. Yeah.
Gregor Martynus:Yeah.
Bdougie:And so, like, the hoodie hoodie started in Berlin
Gregor Martynus:at the first? Yeah. Like, I would say so. I think I I lived in Zurich, at the time. My wife, she did her PhD, but kind of Berlin was the rest of the people.
Gregor Martynus:And I would, you know, take the train Yeah. Every now and then from Zurich to Berlin and back. So we wanted to meet in person, but, definitely, Berlin was the headquarter and still is for for Neighborhoody, the company.
Bdougie:Okay. And then, well, the fascinating thing is, like, the amount of project that came out of neighborhood. So you had mentioned in passing your your experience with greenkeeper and then and then you're like, oh yeah. It also came out of hoodie. So talk about, like, as you were approaching the problem, you you you guys built a company, and then you had to build other things that then make the company make sense.
Gregor Martynus:Yeah. Well, these are maybe 2 different things, but what happened with Hoodie, once we kind of figure out what the whole system is, like this back end, offline first back end, it was a mess in terms of code. It was very hard to understand, to maintain, and so on. So we had to clean it up. And we were thinking, okay.
Gregor Martynus:How can we make this as contributor friendly as possible? And one solution we came up with is we have to decompose it into smaller modules. So out of a one big repository, we maybe at the end had, like, 12 or 15. But then the people who only cared about the front end SDK, they had, like, one repository which only had the code for it, and it had its dedicated readme, its dedicated testing. It was a much simpler setup.
Gregor Martynus:You didn't need any CouchDB and stuff like that. However, by optimizing for contributors, we really increased the burden of maintenance. Yeah. Because now we have these different repositories, and you make a release here, and then you need to update the other repositories. And then another is, like, 3 to 4 layers.
Gregor Martynus:So we, at the time of the company, had interns, actually. That was, Stefan Boeneman,
Bdougie:who From Contentful and
Gregor Martynus:Yeah. Is that the same Stefan I'm thinking of?
Bdougie:He's in Berlin. Contentful?
Gregor Martynus:Yeah. Yeah. Maybe. Oh, yeah. He worked at Contentful, I think.
Bdougie:Yeah. He works at another startup now. But See,
Gregor Martynus:Yeah. So he was one of the people working at, at Neighborhoody, and I think that he was basically the person with I'm sorry. I'm lacking on the other name. We had another intern. And they together, created both semantic release and greenkeeper, like, its initial versions, out of the need of how can we have these separate repositories, in order to be contributor friendly, but at the same time lower the barrier for of maintenance overhead.
Gregor Martynus:And this, until this day, I would say the most important things is, like, release automation and dependency updates. And Greenkeeper and semantic release were exactly the solution and evolved greatly since then. I mean, Greenkeeper, you know, rest in peace, is is not Did
Bdougie:it officially shut down?
Gregor Martynus:Yeah. It officially shut down. It got acquired by Snyk. Okay. Snyk?
Gregor Martynus:Snyk?
Bdougie:I say Snyk, but they say Snyk. Yeah. So we'll say Snyk.
Gregor Martynus:Okay. We say both so people will know what we mean. Yeah. But since then, you know, like, basically, GitHub came out with their built in Dependabot Yeah. Solution.
Gregor Martynus:So that was kind of, you know, it. And semantic release is still out there and thriving. And I'm, like, one of the maintainers, of Symantec Green.
Bdougie:It's interesting that Greenkeeper though had it was it clear that Greenkeeper had a paid opportunity then Symantec released them?
Gregor Martynus:Yeah. I think because there was is still, you know, you put a pen about, like, the security aspect of it. Yeah. So we created, like, an enterprise version of Greenkeeper, which not only work with the public NPM registry, but also with public, private packages and private registries and so on. So there was a different avenue.
Gregor Martynus:For semantic release, I don't know if we really consider it. We could only do so much at once. Yeah. So we tried Greenkeeper kind of as a service. You know, CouchDB support was one thing, and then we just worked on on different projects, as the company.
Bdougie:Okay. So that would that was the sort of makeup of what Hoodie ended up outside the offline application, the tooling part. Yeah. Greenkeeper, semantic release, and then some CouchDB support.
Gregor Martynus:Yeah. Yeah. Mostly, that was basically that, I think, came out of of Hoodie. Yeah.
Bdougie:And did Hoodie ever take VC fund or anything like that? Or was this always
Gregor Martynus:I mean, we also had, like, a very anti anti VC stand, I think. Yeah. We really like the German Mittelstand, and we want
Bdougie:to be What is the, what is that?
Gregor Martynus:Okay. German Mittelstand, is basically family owned companies, which are like the middle tier of camp of, you know, of companies. Some of them are big. Some of them are
Bdougie:Like Adidas.
Gregor Martynus:Employees. But where the owners of the company, you know, maybe own this company over generations, and they care deeply about not only the company, but also their employees, the society around them. And this is something that existed, in a German society over a long, long time. Like apprenticeships, you know, is a very big thing in Germany. It's part of the system.
Gregor Martynus:It's inter you know, connected with schools and so on. And, yeah, it has been around for for a very long time in Germany. And we said, like, this is where we wanted to. You know, yeah, we wanna do high-tech stuff, but we wanna be very accountable towards, our people and the people around us and this is the right path for us. So we try to, you know, self fund it.
Bdougie:Yeah. Okay. That makes sense. I was have you seen the movie Air yet? No.
Bdougie:Yeah. Air is, basically about, Michael Jordan getting in the shoe deal and the guys at Nike basically trying to get him to sign instead of signing their Adidas basically. Mhmm. And at that point was when, I guess, the family had all the siblings had taken over or I'm not sure who they all were, but, that was like one of the reasons why MJ didn't go to Adidas is because there was like no clear leadership. There's, like, the entire family had their own thing.
Bdougie:No proper CEO. Anyway, I I imagine there was, like, way more nuance to that story that connects with the German Mittelsteins? Mittelstand. Like, middle is like the middle and,
Gregor Martynus:you know, stan is the stan.
Bdougie:So it's
Gregor Martynus:kind of like the I don't know how you call it in English. You know, there's, like, small business and there are, like, the huge corporations.
Bdougie:Yeah. Small, medium business.
Gregor Martynus:Medium business, would say. But also in particular, many of them are family owned.
Bdougie:Okay. And that
Gregor Martynus:is an important aspect of it.
Bdougie:Oh, interesting. Yeah. Very cool. Yeah. So I mean, what what happened I we know what happened to Hoodie.
Bdougie:Like, now, it's it's still been chugging along and doing stuff. And we know what happened to Greenkeeper. So what happened to Gregor? Like, you don't work there anymore.
Gregor Martynus:So, yeah. I worked, basically independently and remotely my whole career since, like, 2002 or something. And that permitted me to move around with my wife as she made her career. And she was in, you know, in Zurich, which was closest enough to Berlin. She did her PhD.
Gregor Martynus:And after that, we went to the East Coast, to Boston, Cambridge. And, you know, I was just able to move with her. But I was one of the founders of the company, Neighbourhoodie, and it kind of like, you know, now we had, like, a tie 6 hours time difference with the East Coast, which already made it hard. And then after a year, we moved to, to the West Coast. And that is 9 hours and, like, we like, it just didn't work out.
Gregor Martynus:Not in the way I wanted to be involved. Yeah. But before I think even before I moved to the West Coast, Brandon Keepers kind of approached us or approached me saying, like, hey. You know, I wanna build out this OctoKit program, and we want to the way we wanna do it with these different SDKs. We wanna hire, like, maintainers for, like, the top 10 to 20 language ecosystems.
Gregor Martynus:We wanna start with JavaScript, and I think it would be perfect. And I said, sure. You know, in the beginning, I started it out as part of Neighbourhoodie, but then, as we split, I basically took over, Octkit, to myself and work as a 1099 contractor, and did some other gigs as well. But then 2018, you know, my triplets.
Bdougie:Oh, I was gonna say Microsoft took over, but, Yeah. That too. Kids too as well.
Gregor Martynus:So, yeah, I kind of started OctoCade in, like, 2017 ish, which, you know I mean, it's not only the the kids arrived in July, but because it was a triplet, pregnancy, it was, you know, it was complicated. So, like, during the pregnancy already, like, that was, like, my biggest priority, of course. And by the time they arrived, I I was glad to to be able to just say, well, I just will work half time now, and, be available for my family and do mostly OctoKits on the other half, but also be very independent. That was just a perfect work setup for me. And it was great because I could continue to work on open source, and a lot of more work or more open source projects, came out of that time.
Gregor Martynus:And me working on OctoKit mostly because it's basically, you know, a wrapper around GitHub's platform APIs. And if you're an open source maintainer, you're most likely on GitHub. And if you wanna automate your chores, you will need to interact with GitHub APIs. So it was perfect for me because I knew through the OctoKit work exactly what was possible and how. And I could basically build the tooling or, like, the underlying fundamentals that I would need to then automate more stuff with my open source work so that I could keep maintaining stuff.
Bdougie:Yeah. This makes so much sense now that I have, like, all the threads for me And in your story and also this one note, Brandon Keepers, long time engineer at GitHub. He was acquired through another acquisition and then was early GitHub acquired company employee. Mhmm. Now, sailing boats.
Bdougie:I don't know. What is Brandon doing nowadays?
Gregor Martynus:Yeah. He's, it's captain. Captain keepers now? And captain
Bdougie:keepers. Yeah.
Gregor Martynus:He's sailing, yes. Sailing the seas and building software for, you know, sailboats, I think. Shout out to Brandon. That is great. Thank you for everything you did and I'm still jealous of your title director of open source at GitHub.
Gregor Martynus:I think it's just the coolest title ever.
Bdougie:Yeah. And he, honestly, he had a such a great team. The team that actually was hired into Mhmm. Was like a a portion of that team with Nadia and and Mike, as well and John Britton. Mhmm.
Bdougie:And so John absorbed some folks from Brandon and then post acquisition, Brandon decided to go set sales. Literally, after an acquisition, a lot of people sail off in the sunset figuratively but like he literally did it. Yeah. He he,
Gregor Martynus:Good for them.
Bdougie:Big in the big in the sailboats. Yeah. But it's it can't be other stated that the author kit ecosystem is pretty nice. Like, you I didn't realize it was 2017. I felt like it was just there forever.
Bdougie:But by the time I started using it in 2017, I felt like, oh, wow. Yeah. Because at the time, previously, I worked at Netlify and we had our own SDK file. Like, was this basically called GitHub dotjs or whatever. Mhmm.
Bdougie:And we built a bunch of wrappers around the API. That's how Netlify worked for years. And I don't know if they switched to Octacate, but when I got to GitHub and saw Octacate, I'm like, why was I not using this thing? This thing is so much better.
Gregor Martynus:They better switch. Yeah.
Bdougie:Yeah. And the the thing is, like, even the one thing I always, like, kinda blew me away is like, how you kept up to date with the API changes. Do you wanna explain that?
Gregor Martynus:Yeah. Sure. So, first of all, Octocad was there before I came. It was just a Ruby Octocad and I think dot net. And then I came in with JavaScript, and we kind of took the project that had the most stars, you know, which is not always the best idea, but it is what it is.
Gregor Martynus:So we adopted, like, the GitHub package, I think, and started from that and eventually similarly, you know, you had done a on one episode from Next. Js where you explained, like, you basically, you know, took the plane apart and put it together on flight, and that's what we did. We replicated it as well. Like, eventually, the original package was, like, 20,000 lines or something. We took it apart and put it together with very little friction.
Gregor Martynus:And now it's just, like, 10 lines of code, which composes the different modules that can now be used separately. And for me working on this myself and also being kind of the trailblazer, like, you know, I was hired not only to create the Octo UI JavaScript, but also with the prospect of, yeah, there will be 20 more people coming after me. So all the shared problem that, I, that I thought, yeah, would be useful for other maintainers as well, I try to solve in a way that is not only relevant in JavaScript but also to the other systems. And what I did is I created a crawler that would go through the documentation of the REST API of GitHub every night and would extract machine readable, you know, data of it, like some custom made, JSON, which eventually we turned to an open API, compatible specification. And then having that as a kind of, you know, a separate project, which others could use as well, and then use that in order to generate, the JavaScript Octo kit.
Gregor Martynus:And this is how I could, you know, keep up to date very, very quickly. As long as the docs were up to date, the SDKs were up to date. This was like an important problem. And yeah. And eventually, GitHub adopted the open API specification, made it much better and started generating even the docs out of the OpenAPI specifications.
Gregor Martynus:So these things, I got even closer, and I no longer had to, like, maintain this, crawler. You know?
Bdougie:Yeah. That's that's amazing. Yeah. Anyway, like, you def if you if you maintain docs or you have your own OpenAI spec, like, definitely take a look at this this work because it inspired so much more work that I even did because, like, I I got to benefit being doing dev rel at GitHub. A lot of the work you did, like, they put together a quick little demo, like the the webhook tool, OktaKit webhook.
Bdougie:Yeah. And we built Twitch integrations on top of that and it was made so trivial that anybody watching our Twitch stream could be like, oh yeah, I can clone this and get started really quickly And, like, having all the pieces, like, sort of composable makes it a very interesting story to, like, now teach integrators GitHub, which was, like, my first role at GitHub was marketplace integrations. Like, how do you build the story to get people to do that? And then get up actions came along and that became my focus. But then I'm curious, like, in from your purview where you were doing octa kit, like, get up actions kind of changed the game about GitHub integration.
Bdougie:So, like, did you were you part of those conversations or were you just sort of chugging along on the side? No.
Gregor Martynus:I chugged along on the side. You know, at this time, I had other priorities, but I loved it. Like, for me, I'm not a DevOps person, like, running my own servers. I thank God, you know, for Net ify and the Versals that just Heroku before that enabled someone like me build out their, stuff out there. But with actions, it made it so simple by putting, like, a YAML file in the folder of my repository, and suddenly, I could, like, run code.
Gregor Martynus:Yeah. That changed the game. It changed the game of open source maintenance as well. Definitely. But it was it's not the end of of apps.
Gregor Martynus:You know, like, an a GitHub application is just a means of authentication. It's not like, it's just kinda confusing because people call GitHub app both, the thing you register on github.com, and then you get your app ID and and, private key back, like webhook secret. Yeah. These are just credentials. And then people call GitHub app also some kind of server that you're running that receives webhooks.
Gregor Martynus:Yeah. But you don't need that part. So technically, you can run GitHub apps from GitHub actions Yeah. Which is confusing, but you have
Bdougie:Which we do. We do at Open Sauced. Thanks to you actually showing to me. So as a get up employee, when I was building open sauce, like, you were just blowing my my brain. Every time we chat, it'd be like, oh, yeah.
Bdougie:You could do this. And then, like, our entire indexer. So anything open sauce actions that that repo, like, was our original conversations around running a GitHub app, on GitHub actions and then any installed GitHub app. We can then crawl to do updates which makes a lot of sense and a lot of tooling you had built but also I'd seen a lot of people do like randomly like send an open issue on a repo that you had to install an app and I didn't know you could do that stuff and, like, once you really dig in, which honestly, we take a step back. Like, you mentioned Brandon and Probot, but we didn't really talk about the idea of GitHub apps as well, which is like a it was a big change for GitHub
Gregor Martynus:Yeah.
Bdougie:To like unveil and and roll out these these applications. So like, were you after apps were shipped?
Gregor Martynus:No. I came just around the same time. Okay. So, Probot was created when GitHub apps were announced and that was mostly Brandon Keepers, Jason Edko, you know, who's still Yeah. Who's still with us.
Gregor Martynus:Mhmm. And if you have other people who, worked on Probot as a means to create, like, a framework to build GitHub apps. And only slowly after that, I came from the Octocad site because I was busy with building crawlers and whatnot, to then, again, like, replace the foundation of ProBOT step by step with actually OctoKit to the point where ProBOT is just like an opinionated composition of OctoKit components, which is exactly the way it should be so that you have an opinionated framework. You can build a GitHub app of just a few lines of code. But when you outgrow a framework's scope, you should be able to eject the framework and then use the underlying tooling.
Gregor Martynus:And that is what what we made, impossible now. Yeah.
Bdougie:Yeah. This is maybe I'm way more excited about this conversation, maybe for our listeners, but, like, there's a lot of folks who I I have helped support in these conversations and, like, a lot of startups who were, like, we wanna build a staying. How do we build this interaction? Super base being one of them. Mhmm.
Bdougie:Like, early days, they wanted to build an ecosystem. We can authenticate with GitHub and have interactions and build entire database on top of it. And a lot of that knowledge I was able to, like, unveil to these folks was through a lot of our interactions and a lot of pro bon interaction. So, like, Becks being one of the members of the team that, intern but also help support Probot at the time, Jason Ecto as well-being another person I always had their ear asking questions and, yeah. Even a few other folks, like, it seemed like at the time, like, the GitHub interns, like, Mark Terashati as well.
Bdougie:Yeah. Like, oh, I'm thinking about, the other guy who's does a the Slack integration.
Gregor Martynus:Oh, yeah. With him.
Bdougie:Yeah. Well
Gregor Martynus:yeah. And there was Bex too. Yeah. I think they are at Twilio now. Yep.
Gregor Martynus:And these are all amazing.
Bdougie:Nathaniel as well. D d 12. Yeah. This is still it was like a lot of energy around to get a vaps and then Microsoft acquired us and then everything sort of like ellipse like this sort of t t t d like, we'll figure out what happens next. Yeah.
Bdougie:I do see a bit of a resurgence in the the get up app space as you see more and more startups sort of like try to do their sort of interaction with the get up because yeah, GitHub's an interesting place where it's just everyone uses it.
Gregor Martynus:I wanna I always wanted GitHub to be a backend for open source communities. It kind of makes sense. And it's not only about release automation and dependency, you know, automation. It was it brings all these fascinating things like, the entire flow of pull requests where you can set rules of who has to review what. But now imagine you can build a custom UI that is specific to content creators.
Gregor Martynus:You're, like, you know, writing a blog post or something. And, yes, there are, like, other tools that you can use for that. Yeah. But I would really like to build more very thin, wrappers around just GitHub where, yes, you log in with your GitHub account, and then you don't need to go through, like, the pull request UI and the github.com UI. Instead of you have a UI that is perfectly tailored to where you're coming from, you have a great, you know, maybe collaborative editing experience.
Gregor Martynus:And when you're done, you submit it. And in the back end, it's using all branch protection rules and pull requests. This is where the developers are at home, and they love that. But for, you know, content creators, they will have an entire different experience. Or for example, I built, like, a Hacker News clone, like Octonews, you know, that is basically, just another path to contribute to an open source community.
Gregor Martynus:Like, sharing resources that are relevant to your community, that is a great way to Yeah. Have a very low bar means of contribution. I wanted to build it where where GitHub is basically the back end. And you just have a small custom UI where you submit links, but in the, you know, behind that, it's just basically pull request flows and reactions and whatnot.
Bdougie:Yeah. I mean, you know, this about open sauce. Our original back end was the repository. Like, everyone gets a new repository as a new open sauce user. We've since moved away from this because, yeah, well, we we didn't hit scaling issues but like, we definitely had like a lot of chewing gum and and duct tape to to make it work.
Bdougie:And honestly, I wouldn't mind rebuilding it from the ground up because yeah. We just had a lot of, like, since 2017. It it worked sort of.
Gregor Martynus:Engineers always want to be rebuilt. Yeah. It's tempting. Yeah. But and you bring out an interesting point because I think this is the biggest point of friction.
Gregor Martynus:As soon as you need some kind of stateful integration Yeah. It becomes complicated. And I wish, like, GitHub would provide some kind of minimalistic key value store, like, very, very simple. Then we would need all these different hacks, like injecting HTML comments into, you know, issues and comments and stuff like that to keep some kind of state just because we don't want to maintain our own database.
Bdougie:Yeah. I mean,
Gregor Martynus:we wish we could solve. That's that's what, you know.
Bdougie:Honestly, you still work at GitHub. Yeah. The the GitHub just is like that's like everyone's sort of stateful data management where Yeah. You get a one off just and funny enough, like, for the longest time, Netlify's streaming logs were printing to a GitHub gist. And, yeah.
Bdougie:You get a lot of
Gregor Martynus:you get
Bdougie:a lot of, persistent. I don't know how long they left that up, but when I left in 2018, we still use that. But, yeah. There's there's definitely a ton of other tools you could use instead.
Gregor Martynus:Or like, I wish there would be more investment in Probot and kind of turn it into a service, you know, which is, like, out in the open so you can invite all these integrators. But then Probot, as like a GitHub app, you know, service could then say, yeah. You basically get some little, data storage for free as part of the framework, but you can also, you know, bring your own. No problem. This is how it works.
Gregor Martynus:I think this is the this is the layer where this should happen.
Bdougie:Yeah. But it kinda seems like, they've kind of introduced pieces of pro bot in diff I don't know if it was intentional, but like, we'll get up actions, it became that became my integration platform. So instead of building a whole app, like, I can just do an action. It works. But then with Probot, now there's slash commands as well.
Bdougie:Mhmm. Which was, like, always my my first demo Probot was like, hey, let's just label an issue and do a thing. Now, GitHub has slash commands where you can just do a thing. I actually haven't used them yet since leaving GitHub, so I don't know how customizable they are.
Gregor Martynus:Yeah. You know, I was, I I as you say, I work at GitHub, so I kind of bring in the open source and integrators perspective still wherever I am. So when I hear slash commands, I'm kind of trying to hey. Can we please make it so that apps can register their own slash commands? Yeah.
Gregor Martynus:So that, you know, the open sourced app, when you install it, you now get, like, a custom slash custom slash slash command and you can interact directly with the app. Yeah. That would be useful. But I I was, you know, not yet successful enough, to to get that going. But maybe one day
Bdougie:It took me about it's it took me about a year to get enough pull to
Gregor Martynus:be in the last day. Sometimes you just have to build stuff, hack it together, so that you can show it and use that as leverage,
Bdougie:you know. Honestly, you
Gregor Martynus:know, it's build it into
Bdougie:the product. And we wanna take a step into how the hierarchy of get get up works. My my secret sauce of working on GitHub, which you can't do anymore because the office is gonna shut down. It's every Thursday, I'd go have lunch in the office or every other Thursday. And that's though Tuesday, people get hired.
Bdougie:Thursday is the first day when you're hired. You don't have, like, a thing to do. It's like your last day of freedom before you go back home. So I would just go have lunch in the office and meet every new person. And then a year into their trajectory, like, oh, yeah.
Bdougie:You're doing that that cool thing now. Are you working on this project? Yeah. We we met a year ago. Yeah.
Bdougie:And then I just get pool with it a bunch of teams and like a lot of PMs and engineers. And then that's how I would just kinda inject energy into things I thought would be important, which is it's funny to say this out loud because like looking back people might be like, oh, yeah. Bdougie. There's a reason why he was a Beyonce of GitHub, like, he was behind pulling strings, but not always did it did it work out. But it was just give first, which we always had like a platform and a dev develop relations to be like, hey, come talk to us.
Bdougie:We'll do a thing. Come speak at this event. And then it'd be like, oh, we need webhooks for reactions. How can we get that done? Which unfortunately has not been done yet.
Gregor Martynus:I asked for it on the day GitHub apps were, introduced, I think, basically. Yeah.
Bdougie:It it be amazing as to do a heart and then each heart is a followed up with like a workflow. Yeah. I just had I never there was never a proper PM on that feature that I could talk to. And engineers not that engineers lost their their sort of pool, but, like, less stuff went through engineering and went through PMs.
Gregor Martynus:So if
Bdougie:you didn't have a PM, it's harder to get the justification,
Gregor Martynus:in
Bdougie:certain things.
Gregor Martynus:But, you know, I mean, it's complicated, of course. But, I will never stop rooting for GitHub. Like, my career wouldn't exist without the open source on that on that platform. So even if it's, it's hard at times, especially, you know, like, for the past half a year or so, when just people were let go and it was kind of vague, and it's still that way. But everyone there, you know, the people are great, but surprisingly, there are not so many people who are actually using GitHub, outside of their work.
Gregor Martynus:Like, that is something that surprised me a little bit, which is, you know, yeah, surprising, but it's also an opportunity for me, and I try to inject myself into places to make sure that this perspective gets not overseen. Yeah. So GitHub cares greatly about open source, but I think, like, people lack the experience of being a maintainer on open source sometimes. I wanna represent, you know, shout out to all my maintenance out there. I'm finding a good fight for
Bdougie:you. Yeah. And honestly, that's one of the nicest part about being a dev tools and companies that support developers, like, when you yourself feel the pain of, like, oh, we moved the button or this thing is now set up this way. There needs to be that person that can help shepherd, which the one thing I loved about being part of the developer relations team is, like, I was part of that sort of shepherding the news and getting in front of folks before things change or before we ship things like copilot. I got this meet 20 of the most impactful people in the industry and say, hey, we have a thing.
Bdougie:Would you like to see it before you launch it? And that was like a a a a thing I loved and enjoyed. But I do also realize, like, as the company progresses and matures and grows, like, there are less maintainers who are engineering teams and instead of fighting the good fight like yourself, and there needs to be more. So, like, if you are a maintainer, apply for one of the open roles, and then start building up your your credibility internally and ship some really cool features. Yeah.
Bdougie:Yeah. So what's your thought on the sort of you'd mentioned, you're sort of you're you're at GitHub. You love GitHub because of your career. But do you think GitHub ever has an opportunity to, like, become the 2nd tier solution? Because, like, we have now we have all this machine learning stuff.
Gregor Martynus:Mhmm.
Bdougie:So when I think about machine learning, like, yes, a lot of people host their stuff on GitHub, but now these all these other tools like Hugging Face and replicate. Actually, it's it's only 2 I know, to be honest. Yeah. But now there's other places where people even talk about data science. So do you think there's, like, a world where GitHub like, people end up doing something besides GitHub?
Bdougie:I'm sure they do, and they should.
Gregor Martynus:You know? Like, keep GitHub on their toes, as well. But as long as GitHub is the place where community happens and all these other tools are kind of built around it and feed into that, I think GitHub is in a pretty good place.
Bdougie:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's true. I mean, the the beauty is that GitHub keeps evolving. Yeah.
Bdougie:So, like, it's very different GitHub than 5 years ago, at least when I joined. And I think that if GitHub doesn't continue to evolve, then then there's an issue. Yeah. And if we're also trying to be the just the Git hosting platform and that's it.
Gregor Martynus:Yeah. I mean, sometimes, you know, it's also contradictory. Like, for once I GitHub, we wanna be the place for every developer. So we care deeply about accessibility, which is also a blocker for huge organizations and, you know, big corporations where they have certain requirements. But at the same time, we want everyone to be able to use GitHub.
Gregor Martynus:But that slows us down. Like, now we're building these features. It takes longer. And, also, we have this interactivity, which might seem a little bit more clunky sometimes. Yeah.
Gregor Martynus:Like, maybe you need more clicks than with, you know, linear or, like, other, alternative tooling, but they do not adhere to the same amount of accessibility, certifications than we do. So there is a trade off, and there will always be a space for, like, smaller places, you know, that have a very tailored, very fast experience for certain aspects of it. But I still think it's the right call, for GitHub. Like, if they're really true to their mission, it is the right call even, you know, when it pains me that like, I want all these things, and it's just so so slow. And I understand that, other things need to be prioritized, but in the long run, it's, it's the right call.
Gregor Martynus:And, you know, GitHub has been around for 15 years or so. They probably will be around for another 15 years.
Bdougie:Yeah. Exciting.
Gregor Martynus:I'm sorry. I'm, like, making an advertisement for GitHub now. It's I'm really passionate about the product, and the people, But most of all, I'm passionate about open source. And if open source moves away to something else, then I will move, move as well, you know. And I don't want it to happen.
Gregor Martynus:Like, this is why I'm moving GitHub, and I try to address the problems and the pain points that we are seeing that are growing. It's just, you know, you reach a new foundation. You think you did a good job, but then people find new things to complain. So you gotta, keep evolving as you're saying, because other smaller startup companies will come in and they eat your breakfast. And you should talk about open sauce more because, again, like, everything that open sauce is doing, I wish it had to be doing.
Bdougie:Let's talk about open sauce. We don't we actually don't spend a ton of time in these conversation talking about open sauce, but I know you like what we're doing. And I'm curious to even get your take even recorded on the podcast of like our approach to data insights, but also connecting the developer. So I've been using the term human dependency graph as like, you you see a project like you wanna find out who is maintaining, contributing the project, but also like what your pathway to maintaining contributing to that project as well. And that's something that's always could've been kind of if you know, you know, but if you don't, then it's like very hard to get in to do open source and and make a contribution.
Bdougie:So I what's your thought in the, sort of, state of what we're doing in the current ecosystem?
Gregor Martynus:I see and I plot open source efforts to basically be the space to go when you have the questions. How do I contribute to open source? I think, like, you're very invested in it. It's involved, like, documentations and tooling and outreach and so on. And that is wonderful.
Gregor Martynus:And it just becomes ever more, so important. And after that, there are so many unanswered questions. You know, like, given this transparency, who is behind these open source projects? It is not only relevant to new contributors. It's also relevant to, like, companies.
Gregor Martynus:Like, are these people, you know, will they be around? Like, is this a company funded project? Is this, like, some, you know, project run by by students that might, like, dissolve the group next year or something like that? And then, yeah, where do I promote myself better as an open source, contributor, or maintainer? It now becomes a career path, which I'm super excited to see.
Gregor Martynus:Like, we are starting the first people, who are able to do this and, you know, they're not very representative. There are certain kind of people who can afford this, but I hope that they are, you know, paving the paths for many other people, more diverse people to follow. And then it is very important, to have a way to promote the work you're doing beyond what GitHub can do because, like, the green blocks, that's not enough. Like, the highlights, I think, feature you have in open source is something, that makes a lot of sense to me or kind of like the I think we talked about, like, how we need, like, a LinkedIn, features, you know, a system for It's
Bdougie:summarize summarize the work you've done Yeah. In a way that's like it's it's not even just a sort of resume, but it's also like if you're contracting. So I get a lot of your work has been dependent on a company paying you for the work that didn't help support your open source. Mhmm. And a lot of times, it it you have to summarize your work.
Bdougie:I don't know how it is for you when you have to summarize. Like, hey, I did these 10 PRs. Yeah. But even the like, unless you're running your own scripts or, you know, generating whatever that that that form is, to submit your work like that also doesn't exist. Like the sort of contractor to contributor experience, like in tooling also doesn't exist.
Bdougie:Yeah. Yeah. And I know this I I cite this I know one company in particular who can't has a team of contractors they work with to help do upstream contributions. And the the work of just getting them to tell them what have you done, like, what invoice us. This invoice us based on the work.
Bdougie:But as a contributor or or, you know, this independent, you know, I write code, like, let's 12 hours. I don't know. Like, this throw out a number, but that's even hard for some people because, like, all they wanna do is ship some code. Yeah. But there's no there's a tooling unless you're a full on contractor and like this is your thing and you've done it for a while.
Bdougie:Yeah. Like, there should be a pathway for people to come out of a boot camp or come out of college and just generate an invoice.
Gregor Martynus:Yeah. And I mean I mean, I could talk about this for forever, you know, all kinds of other tooling that I hope, like, open source will adapt. But in general, these are these are the problems. Like, I wanna know who are the contributors in the project. Like, GitHub has insights, but it's only about code, mostly about code and maybe issues.
Gregor Martynus:But there are other means of, contribution. And I want to know from the perspective of the maintainers, like, through their kind of way weighted, you know, through their endorsements to say, like, yes, this is a significant contributor. You know, for example, like, for OctoKit, I started to heart. I think you started, you know, using the heart emoji just to kind of bookmark even comments, pull requests, or whatever. And then I had a script.
Gregor Martynus:And once per month, it would need to, you know, go through massive amount of data to find, like, these places. And and then I have to go through all these URLs and, like, write my reports and say thank you. Yeah. For, like Oh.
Bdougie:So you actually you write a thank you report.
Gregor Martynus:Yeah. And this is not something you wanna automate. Right? Like, CI is great for automation, like, telling people that their syntax is wrong. But if you wanna appreciate people, that's not something I wanna automate.
Gregor Martynus:I want tooling to help me build this out. Yes. But then I wanna go in and not only say, hey, thank you because here is a link to your comment. I wanna say, hey, thank you. I really appreciate this.
Gregor Martynus:You know, this is the impact that you had. It takes much more time, but
Bdougie:But it's a meaningful experience.
Gregor Martynus:It's very meaningful. And this is how I think, we onboarded several great contributors to different projects over time.
Bdougie:Yeah. So I actually wanted to we do a welcome message Mhmm. To folks when they make their first contribution. And it is automated, but I've always wanted to, like, track to how many welcome messages we send out to do something like a thank you report. To be like, hey, team.
Bdougie:Like, we have a a triage team and the triage team is like our first first responder, basically. And the idea is, like, triage team be first responders, like, help siphon people in the the discord, help them introduce or at mention me and be like, oh, so and so made a good contribution because I get sometimes we'll get like 3 of them a week and I'll I'll be traveling or something will happen and I just don't know what's happened. And so if you ever been a GitHub employee, you would know your notifications on GitHub. It could be a bit much. So it's not as easy just going through your mentions.
Bdougie:Yeah. But if I had, like, a a a Google Sheet that was, like, here are the lists. It's like, which ones have I not responded to? Who have I not Yeah.
Gregor Martynus:Like, to a point where, you know, I want, like, a CRM, you know, for my open source project in a way. I know they're, like, other projects. We try that where we can kind of keep track of people who contribute. And I again, like, I don't want mean to automate all this stuff, but it helps me as a maintainer with a short amount of time to make a decision to into whom can I invest more? Like, in how we sometimes, I would just go in as soon as there was a good contribution, and I would ask them, hey, do you wanna do a call?
Gregor Martynus:Yeah. Totally random. Like and this doesn't scale, but it's enough if I would do it once or twice, per month. And many of these were just interesting and then nothing happened. But I think most of the contributors who stuck with us for longer are the ones that I had a personal call with or someone else from the team.
Gregor Martynus:And it's a great thing you could do. But then I also wanna write it down, like, in some kind of private maintenance space. Like, hey, I talked to, you know, Jennifer today. This is what we discussed. And this is important things that this is things that Jennifer cares about and so on.
Gregor Martynus:Yeah. There's a space for that right now. It's you know?
Bdougie:Honestly, that's even I honestly didn't even think about this because as you roll off a maintainer, someone else comes on, you know, people have other things to do and like, if it's all unpaid work, you know, it's it's right for them to move on and do things. But a lot of time that knowledge about Jennifer goes off with that maintainer. So, like, it there should be sort of like a log to be able to say, okay. I I talked to this person. This is our interactions.
Bdougie:This is the work they've done. And so when you're usually, what happens is, like, oh, wow. This is a thing we haven't touched in a while. Who knows how to eat this works? And the idea there is, like, we should, we we should, like, have some sort of a list of experts.
Bdougie:Like, I've always wanted to do the, which I don't know if you know if anybody does this, like, the code owners file.
Gregor Martynus:Mhmm.
Bdougie:Like, I don't just generate that. Like, generate who who are like my top ten people who have touched this folder? And then how can I source like the people I should be reaching out to when I need to start, like, onboarding people or talking to experts about this particular folder? Yeah. And I think with, a lot of, like, Lorna and which I guess Lorna is still around, I don't remember it.
Bdougie:But Turbo is another one. Like, all the monorepo projects, just a lot of information Yeah. In the one project, which is like, I guess, the inverse of where you're coming from, where you built all the sort of micro services to support the one project. It's hard to, like, find out who owns what. Yeah.
Bdougie:And it's very it's very rare to have the one person who knows it all.
Gregor Martynus:Yeah. Yeah. And you don't have any institutional knowledge, as you say. And people leave and it's gone. And I don't want, like, super professionalized open source, but I would like to have an option where, like, an open source project comes to a certain point.
Gregor Martynus:And, also, many people many open source maintainer will tell you, well, we need an open source as product managers. Yeah. Like, please, product managers come. But I can understand. Like, there are better things to do.
Gregor Martynus:Why should they contribute to open source? You know? That's a
Bdougie:thing that I always But
Gregor Martynus:I think they are not even aware how much they are wanted. But then when someone comes, like, what can I give them? Github.com is not perfect. Now we are trying with projects a little bit, but there is, you know, tooling that they are used to working with that we don't really have. And I think for this to work in open source, it needs to be deeply integrated with with GitHub.
Gregor Martynus:And that's kind of the kind of stuff I would I would love to see to create a place for more project and product managers. And open source would be so much better for it if we had, like, contributeee community contributions that really does product and project managers work. And fundraising, man, there is so much. Yeah. You wanna fundraise?
Gregor Martynus:If you're good at fundraising, all these open source projects, They just need someone to do it and they could rise. Oh, yeah. Raise a lot of money. You just need to know what you wanna do with it as well, which is Yeah.
Bdougie:This is what I discussion. I always allude to is like open sources. It's really around marketing. It's around product management. It's it's like having all the sorry.
Bdougie:Open source. The success of open source usually is lined into people doing product management really well or people doing marketing really well. And it's not like you have to be a marketer. But like anybody who gets up on stage at a js coffee, you like that becomes the market. Like every year you got stuff, you can talk about it.
Bdougie:Js call like, oh, here's a cool new react feature or a new view feature. Like that becomes a place that people they get validation that they that this is something they could use. But there are so many projects out there that have no no platform, like, to go talk about a thing and they don't have, you know, a bunch of nice cameras and and and the editor to be able to talk about their project in a way that people could discover it. So then it becomes okay. There could be a pathway or a platform, but then they even we start looking at all the tools, like you mentioned open collective in passing, like, for, like, fundraising, title is another one.
Bdougie:They're all disjointed. And I think there are a good effort of, like, having the like, the OSI helps, like, coordinate and have conversations across these ecosystems and organizations. Yeah. But then now it becomes education. K.
Bdougie:You're a maintainer. You got a 100,000 stars in one day because the acronym is now what? And then it becomes an education problem where they didn't know there was a ecosystem for them to, like, plug into Yeah. Until unless someone reaches out to them.
Gregor Martynus:Yeah, man. I wish there was a service somehow, you know. Yeah. Like, there is there are, like, also, like, maintain a conferences and stuff. But it's great to create these forums and you know, especially, like, Open Collective.
Gregor Martynus:Like, they created, like, a community event basically about, about fundraising and open source. Sustainers. Sustainers. Wonderful. And I met a lot of great other, you know, fellow maintainers there, but it's quickly evolving.
Gregor Martynus:There are all these tooling and best practices. And as a maintainer, I barely have the time, you know, to keep up with, like, security updates. But I do have at least when a project grows a certain size, I do have potential funding. And if there was, like, a group of people that would basically come in that are, you know, paid, that do not only help, like they don't need to understand the code. Yeah.
Gregor Martynus:I would rather have social workers, you know, who who understand communication, to help, you know, make sure that, there is nothing off track, that code of conduct is enforced, but also who bring in the knowledge of the industry and say, hey, you know what is great to do to important new people? Like, organize an event, for example. And we can help you with that and blah blah blah blah. Right? Or, like, hey, if you wanna fundraise, like, here are a few things you can do.
Gregor Martynus:Like, these are steps. Or to identify pain points and as existing maintenance team, we don't need to do anything. They just go in and implement it, you know, like certain automations and all, like, stale issues and stuff like that that they could do, which would be great. And one important thing as well is or two important things is onboard maintainers and off board maintainers. Like the whole situation of, you know, you are maintaining a project.
Gregor Martynus:You're kind of a gatekeeper if you oftentimes, you don't want to be, but also you don't have the time to onboard some random people because you are afraid that, like, the millions of downloads this package has will fall into the hands of someone you don't know, and they could really cause damage. Right? So how to do that? And I I wish I could do that with the projects that I maintain, but I cannot do it by myself. And I wish I could, yeah, pay someone to help that.
Gregor Martynus:Not only one project, but across all my projects.
Bdougie:Yeah. It's almost like a, I can only think of, like, whatever the secular terms and not open source terms like the broker or the agent or it it's sort of the the middle person And I think if I don't know if Open Collective or Tile Lift have, like, a sort of sales business development person who they reach out to maintainers. They possibly do. But the idea is, like, show them the ropes. Like, if you're gonna take a bunch of money in Open Collective, like, what do you do with it?
Bdougie:Like, there should be some training and I'm I'm pretty sure they do have something. I just never been a maintainer with a bunch of funding. Yeah. But definitely worth looking at to them for. But I even toyed at the idea of like, what if we had a system of of agents or experts to like Shepherd folks and that honestly, I get help.
Bdougie:We actually pitch this a few times. What if there was a a role to be the PM for some of the top open source projects that didn't have a backing? So, like, you think of, like, actually, everyone had taken off, like, has taken funding eventually or something, which is, like, what Hoodie had go through. Like, you had to build a company to figure out how to be a build a sustainable thing. But, like, what if you get this partner with your organization?
Bdougie:And honestly, I think, like, the GitHub accelerator is one of these
Gregor Martynus:That's great.
Bdougie:The things that came out of it, which is you now have a cohort of projects that have no funding that could take funding, could be a foundation, could just continue to open source. But, like, at least they have a next step and they go through 12 weeks of training to come out the end of it of, like, should this be a company or should just be, like, a foundation? Or should we just set up consulting? Yeah. And that that's a thing that they get to explore through the program.
Gregor Martynus:Yeah. That's very meaningful work. Yeah.
Bdougie:Yeah. But speaking of which, we we gotta wind this down. I appreciate you coming out and having this conversation. I'm looking forward to benefiting from a lot of your work continually. A lot of your open source contributions.
Bdougie:And, yeah.
Gregor Martynus:I'm cheering for the sidelines and I'm your man on the inside. Yeah. So, no. Very happy. Thank you.
Gregor Martynus:Thank you for having me today.
Bdougie:Yeah. Pleasure. And folks, stay saucy. Stay saucy. Secret sauce of the podcast produced in house by Open Sauce, the open source intelligence platform that provides insight by the slice.
Bdougie:If you're in San Francisco and interested in being a guest on the show, find us on Twitter at saucedopen, and don't forget to check out Open Sauce at opensaucedot pizza.