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Everybody Else is a podcast about the invisible people who make life happen. What began as conversations with behind-the-scenes builders in the music industry has grown into a broader exploration of how people think, work, and carry responsibility across industries and across disciplines. Hosted by Wes Luttrell, the show centers on thoughtful dialogue with creatives, leaders, and operators whose work often goes unseen but shapes the world we live in. New episodes streaming every Tuesday.
speaker-0 (00:01.292)
This is the Everybody Else Podcast.
speaker-1 (00:10.39)
Most of the authors of the human story are unnamed. Invisible contributors to the greatest story ever written. So who are the invisible people writing our chapter today? Because behind every great city, industry, movement, and way of thinking are people who dedicate their entire lives to work that'll go virtually unnoticed. Work that builds on where we've been, shapes where we are, and points us towards where we're going.
There are those in the spotlight, and then there's everybody else.
speaker-1 (00:56.384)
here to commemorate something. I'm not really sure exactly, but I was wondering, I wanted to just start out by asking you, when do you know in life, when you look back on your life, when do you know when it's time to move on or when something has run its course?
speaker-0 (01:16.27)
You know, I would like to sit with that and let something come up that's clear because I was inspired by your telling of the story to me, to where you had that sort of clarity. And you have kind of a legendary role in our company, Honeymoon Coffee, of giving us language around the full body, yes.
And it's, it is a yardstick that we use of like, how strongly or not do we feel about moving forward with something. It's almost like what you're asking me is like the opposite of like, how do you know strongly enough to stop moving forward with something? Yeah. Because, you know, you can argue to yourself about the value of perseverance and you know,
speaker-1 (02:14.72)
Right.
speaker-0 (02:15.52)
stay strong through the low times. You know, we've talked about like the value of marriage and the highs and lows and it's like you're really committing yourself through the lows. But this isn't a marriage. This is just a podcast.
speaker-1 (02:30.754)
That's right. It doesn't feel like when I try to project onto it, those other thoughts of like business or hard times that this is a venture, I have to stick with it. But there's something missing in the meaning side of things. Because there's still meaning left when there's like a great challenge in front of you in a business or marriage. There's some sort of greater thing at play with this show.
it's done its job in a sense. Like I feel like it's done its job. It's gotten me to a place where I no longer feel like I want to carry it. I don't want to pick it up again. I don't feel like carrying it forward into the next chapter of life. And it's been feeling like that a little bit. And then,
speaker-0 (03:23.49)
You were driving to yoga.
speaker-1 (03:24.622)
I was driving to yoga early morning and then I was, I literally was coming around Riverside Drive by the museum and I just started laughing out loud like, I'm done. It's over. I'm done. I don't know why, but I'm done. And then I thought, 51? Like I'm going to record the 51st episode this week, which was last week. And then I thought, well, we need to do a 52.
So that that's a whole year of podcasts. That would be a nice, and I like this from my coach. We're not working together. mean, we did a year of working together. Nikki, and she would say like, she didn't believe in burning bridges. She wanted to create, fuck, I'm gonna butcher in what she said. Don't burn the bridge. Let's just like cross to the next place and like leave it, like just do it as best we can without burning things down. And I think that
When I left Wally Opus, for example, which I fully left at this point, is that I didn't want to burn the relationships or the projects down. I wanted to have honest conversations with all the people involved, all of my friends and artists and connections to say like, this is what's going to happen, this is coming, but I want to live out the obligation I've made to you to the best of my ability to the time frame left. And tying
that up, but then once that's tied up, actually, like I'm done, I'm gone. I'm moving on now. And I think that's what, like with the podcast, I'm like, we got to do 52, that's a year for whatever reason, that's a, just make up the meaning of that that's a year. which it is, but saying we're going to put the flag right there and then I'm not going to think about it anymore. And I can actually do that, you know.
speaker-0 (05:20.098)
Well, I guess a part of when I've been sitting with your question and then like, listen to you talking about this some more is sometimes your calendar lets you know, as well as your appetite for something when it's time to let it down. When you like look around at how your day and your week and your month are being filled. And then you look down to these obligations of something from the past and you're like, this isn't serving.
any of the rest of this. Or, gosh, I wish I could step into this next thing if only I could leave behind something else. Something has to give. This is the most sensible thing to give. So like, are you feeling that? Like, is there something else in terms of either clarity or maybe a fog is lifting to where you can see a new future to step into that?
takes time and energy and effort.
speaker-1 (06:23.272)
The first thing that came to mind was that I started the podcast as I was starting to have conversations with people in music. It still says it on the website that I've not updated since I made it last year, is that this podcast started from a series of phone calls that I was having with people in the music industry who were at high levels of working with mostly people in the country music.
world and that came from a connection I made who became a friend through my coach. I was her cousin who I just I talked to Lauren this morning she was a podcast guest Lauren Bartlett I talked to her this morning just about life but she was like let me introduce you to some of my friends so you can like learn more about the industry and as you would have these I would prepare for these 45 minute phone calls
like it was gonna be a podcast. I'm like, I'm going to make, first time I ever did this in my life, was going to make the entire conversation, which I'm clearly not doing today, but make the entire conversation about the other person. And I wanted them to walk away with just like, I don't know what that was, but that was fun. I enjoyed having that conversation with that kid in Evansville. the, like probably the third conversation was,
with Jess Kiefer who ended up being on the podcast too. She works with Luke Holmes. And I said,
speaker-0 (07:59.264)
He must be a big deal in country music if I've heard of him. He's massive. That's right. That's what I'm saying. It's like if I've heard of him, then he's definitely a
speaker-1 (08:06.894)
Yeah, he's a big deal. But after the phone call she said, this was so much fun, like this felt like a podcast. And I'm like, great. Maybe it should have Maybe it should be, yeah.
speaker-0 (08:19.362)
Well, I, we have bonded over a lot of things and Rick Rubin definitely being one of them and his approach and style like seems like it's so aligned with that. And when I even try and describe the podcast, Rick Rubin's podcast, Tetragrammaton, to other people, I give it that like little bit of a caveat. like, you actually probably won't learn a ton about Rick.
or his perspective necessarily on whatever they're talking about. It's just so much about his curiosity for letting the person sort of run with stories and explanations and ponderings and wonderings. And it ends up being, I feel like 90, 95 % that other person. So, but I think this is appropriate. I don't...
This should be a little more about you, especially if people have taken the entire journey and they just finished episode 51 and now they're like, who is this Wesker? Let's find out a little bit more. So have you shared enough of the story of, you just started to share a little bit of like, I'm having these conversations that could be podcasts around the music industry, but have you feel like you've shared enough about.
what made you want to pick up a microphone and be a host.
speaker-1 (09:45.29)
I had never followed through with a podcast beyond 20 episodes and never followed through with like doing something on the podcast side for myself. I did pretty solid job for you guys, consistency wise and like starting this whole thing. But for myself, it was at a time where I wanted to learn a bunch about the music industry from the, I just wanted to connect with whoever.
Because every conversation I was like transforming my view of the music industry and my role in it. What's funny is through that whole journey, I came to the conclusion that I don't have a role in the music industry.
speaker-0 (10:29.742)
You were wanting to learn enough about it and then once something, I mean, do you remember a point in that part of the journey to where you were like, huh? Because you did make this pivot halfway through of like, yeah, it's not really just going to be about the music industry. Was that a singular point where you remember thinking, huh, this isn't about the music anymore and I'm not about the music anymore.
speaker-1 (10:53.102)
Yeah, well it started, was all in conjunction with starting coaching with my coach Nikki about April of last year where she said to me, like, what do you think the most valuable offering you give to artists, what do think that is? And I said, it's gotta be the services, the studio. I started naming all these like tangible things. She's like, okay, you should go ask the artist. so I did, I asked a few people.
and they all said something of the likes of like the conversations we have or like the connection that we've made. Like that. I thought.
speaker-0 (11:31.874)
Intangible things. intangible. Things that you bring to them and out of them.
speaker-1 (11:36.75)
Exactly and up to this point. I just told somebody this the other day up to this point in my life, which was this time last year I had this feeling of I'm going to find I'm gonna find my way as soon as I let go of the things that are standing in my way So I project that onto different things like must be alcohol must be weed must be like staying out too late must be like these things that
through my 20s I sort of have shed, I still drink beer.
speaker-0 (12:10.818)
We're not in confession even if it feels like it, but I appreciate the honesty.
speaker-1 (12:17.548)
But then I always sort of, there was a quiet, really quiet voice that would say, wonder if it's music. I wonder if it's the attachment to my identity in music. And so as I started having conversations out in the world with people in music, I mean, knew that like, I knew that I wanted to do something out of the gate that was just gonna put me in a different comfort level or take me out of my comfort zone. So I, before the podcast even launched,
I did an episode with Chris Passage from the Center and downtown stuff. And then I hit up a friend or a guy who I had met who owned a company, a promotion company. I saw he was going to be in Atlanta for a conference. And I'm like, it'd be awesome to drive down to Atlanta and record a podcast with him. And then on my way back, I'll stop in Nashville and record another one and just like make it a thing. This is like.
just do it, make the pilgrimage, make it happen. And it was great. It put me out there, it put me out of my comfort zone and it gave me lot of oomph to launch the podcast. And then from there I just started interviewing however I could in music. But all along the way, my role in music itself was transforming from producer to manager to I think I'm gonna be a coach.
speaker-0 (13:41.408)
I remember you talking about that. was like, is this a thing? Yeah. A music coach.
speaker-1 (13:46.338)
That same company who I interviewed the guy from turns around and offers me a job to be a coach at the company. I'm like, this must be it. Then after the interview, I'm like, this isn't it. There's nothing about this that feels like, I don't feel like can say yes to this. It doesn't feel right. And I wanna do my own thing. And so the whole last year, I'm really trying to, as I'm learning all these stuff about music, I...
We started my own, a new company that was going to be for music, artist development and like working with these companies. I'm going down to Nashville like a couple times a month, last six months of last year. And I'm meeting more people and I'm just like, I want to be in Nashville. So I said in 2026, I'm going to spend every week driving to Nashville at least once a week. So over Christmas, I'm going on a walk by myself and I just felt like what
What am I doing? Am I going to move to Nashville? Should I just move there? Or should I just abandon that whole thing completely and go all in on Evansville? So I pulled up ChatGPT and I said I want to do a cost benefit analysis. We're going to weigh two options. no, three options. Option one is keep doing whatever the hell I'm doing, which is this weird like hybrid half in half out. Option two is move to Nashville.
Option three is let all that go and just figure out a new career path in Evansville. Because I was already sort of doing some leadership stuff with my church. I'm like going to some local just stuff that's kind of outside of music. And then you can imagine the criteria was like cost of this cost benefit analysis. I have no leads in Nashville. I'm spending this much money every time I go. I'm away from my family. I'm putting wear and tear on my damn van.
all these things, you know, the costs are adding up. then literally after I saw that I was like, it's not that made, chat, you bet, he didn't make up my mind for me. It just gave me some clarity that I was like, I'm do something. I'm gonna let go of Nashville. And then I immediately was like, I'm gonna start talking to people around here. I'm meeting these amazing people around here. People from my church, my friends. We're just gonna start talking, you know?
speaker-0 (15:43.521)
Cops are adding up.
speaker-1 (16:09.92)
And so that put me on, that was like in January. And then I presented this, I presented a couple findings at a parish leadership meeting and our buddy, Tad was there and it went over really well.
speaker-0 (16:22.478)
And this is local, regional, this parish meeting? Like these are your people. This is not some sort of thing where you're going in and if you shit the bed and there's a screw up or something that you can just be like, well, I learned a lesson. Like these are your people.
speaker-1 (16:26.252)
is local.
speaker-1 (16:39.63)
This is like high, yeah, this is like my, I was scared to death. I was only gonna throw up afterwards. I told Chloe that I'm like, I think I just F that whole thing up. And there are people who we know, you know, and then, but it didn't. And,
speaker-0 (16:54.678)
Yeah, what was the, like again, like you were saying, like you had an idea about what value you brought to the artist you worked with. And then you had an idea about how well that event went. When did you start to get the feedback from the people who participated in that with you about how they received you?
speaker-1 (17:11.937)
I will say that the event that went well, so this was before I thought I shit the bed, was that I didn't have anything to lose. I was just applying myself completely creatively, freely to problems that I saw inside of a Catholic parish. And just started putting myself out there, because I didn't have anything to lose. I was like, this is enjoyable to me, and I have no idea what I'm going to do with my life.
and my wife's like, you should probably figure that out.
speaker-0 (17:46.668)
I agree with that.
speaker-1 (17:49.772)
And some like.
speaker-0 (17:50.382)
actually high performing ones.
speaker-1 (17:53.102)
Yes, exactly. is right. But I thought, well, I'm just going to approach these, I'm going to approach the leadership of the parish and ask if I can talk about a couple of things. And we met and I told them, they're like, this is great. You should present this to the group. And Tad was going to facilitate it. And in the back of my mind, I thought, sweet, if this all goes over, maybe something could unfold down the road. But I didn't want to work with Tad because I'm like, he's my buddy. He's our friend. I don't want to cross the path.
those lines. But it went really well. was like 22 people in the room and I presented these things about the parish, what I see, some shared discussion around like vision statement, mission statement, and maybe a path forward doing this, this, and this. All based off of like meeting notes that I had and a survey that we took. And at the end of the meeting, everybody in the room gave an applause.
speaker-0 (18:49.442)
Was it a standing ovation even?
speaker-1 (18:51.086)
Sort of ish in the equivalent of And I was like hmm, maybe this is what I should be doing and I feel very like drawn to this never before had and So at the same time I'm like delete Instagram delete social media I'm gonna go off the map and just like find myself in this work. So I started meeting with anybody I could get meetings with priests deacons people who work in diocese
speaker-0 (18:53.71)
innovation. Yeah.
speaker-1 (19:21.566)
people from the community, just anybody who I saw that I was like, think I should meet with that person. So I filled my calendar for February and March and a lot of April. But then around March, I was at a conference that Tad invited me to and he heard me telling somebody that I worked in music for 10 years and I'm done and I'm now an advisor working with churches, which I made that up.
speaker-0 (19:47.509)
On the spot.
speaker-1 (19:48.16)
on the
speaker-0 (19:51.118)
Descriptions of what you're doing. Yeah, you may not have a business card with those things on it, but that's actually what you're doing
speaker-1 (19:57.208)
what I've been up to. And so Tad heard that and he's like, we should get coffee and talk about whatever you're doing.
speaker-0 (20:03.406)
Let's put that on a business card. So if I can try and reframe how I'm hearing it through like some of the language values, it almost sounds like you were beginning to become a little bit of an organizational psychologist with a specific emphasis on church congregational life or even Catholic organizational health.
speaker-1 (20:05.39)
Exactly.
speaker-1 (20:29.934)
Yeah.
speaker-0 (20:31.502)
I mean, do those terms like, I mean, you're talking about being an advisor, but like there's a psychology to what this organization does and grows and maybe even a new generational perspective that isn't always at those tables based on being born in 1990, whatever you were, 1994. That's crazy.
speaker-1 (20:56.622)
Yes, and but you're exactly right before I talked at that same meeting a very renowned local priest who you actually know now gave a presentation on moving the church and this is a book as well, but moving the church from maintenance mode and kind of an insular focus busy parish to a mission mode an evangelical church getting out
and spreading the word of God. And his talk, was like, great talk. Thanks for setting me up because I'm about to talk about similar things. I'm going to talk about changing things. it became really clear to me that like, yeah, like businesses have mission statements or vision statements depending on, you know, the approach.
or they have values and all these things guide decision making. And I thought, why don't we have that same thing here? Like, why are there questions every time a decision needs to be made as to like, what we're gonna do, like rebuild, we're have to rethink who we are and all this at every step of the way. Why not just take a step back and really create the identity of our local parish in this sense?
establish that this is the mission and then work to bake that mission to all layers of the parish life.
speaker-0 (22:32.014)
I remember around the time that you pivoted away from the music in terms of the podcast theme and you started going into like all aspects of organizational life, know, businesses and sort of church. What were some of the things, like everything you just said about the mission. So I'm going to ask kind of a clunky two-part question. Like with a business, oftentimes it's clear what growth looks like. You can look at the bottom line.
Is this a healthy company? Well, is it profitable? Is it growing, you know, at a certain rate that you could objectively say it's on mission in terms of that? With churches, sometimes it's counting attendance or something like that. But sometimes it's something a little less tangible and you can walk into a space and feel the health.
feel something that's going on. And the same with businesses. And I picked up on that through your conversations with people in business and related to the church in some ways. So my question, like I said, I told you to be clunky, but is there something in that pivot away from music to where it was these sort of business and church guests that you kept being drawn to them and the questions that you were curious about?
asking them that had any overlap.
speaker-1 (24:00.918)
Yeah. When you're sitting with an artist writing a song or making a project, it's a instinctual feeling of whether this is working or not. It's like, cause you can't measure, mean, you can't kind of measure whether it's working or not. And I think that when I would sit in these church sessions, I would hear that attendance, enrollment, it's a school and dollars. These are often the discussions.
But meanwhile, like, that's not really what makes up what this place is at all. Especially if we go back, there was none, you know, it wasn't about how many people, because it sort of was, but it wasn't really like, that wasn't the quantity or the measurement of like, how is this quality of this place? That's a sense, like that's a feeling. And I think that the, like when I look back over just,
a lot of writing sessions that happen in quiet, you know, which just me and another artist or me in a group is these moments of total confusion. Is this going to work? What are we doing here? I'm not really sure. And then you talk it through and then you find a thread and then you gather this and then you put this there. And then it's like, whew, like we've got it. Like whatever it is, we found it. And it's intangible, but it's a feeling that we got it right.
And when I go back to some of the moments recently, or when I first started finding myself in these rooms at churches or churches, was the same thing was happening where I was like, I can throw out analogies of, I remember the first, one of the first meetings I sat in, brought up, they were talking about like the different campuses that make up this parish. I said, it reminds me of a podcast I listened to, Guy Ross.
how I built this but it was like the one it wasn't how I built this it was the one where he talks to CEOs of companies
speaker-0 (26:05.806)
like view from the top or wisdom from the top.
speaker-1 (26:07.918)
from the top, something like that. He was talking to the CEO of, or the then CEO of Foot Locker, Champ Sports, Ladies Foot Locker, Kids Foot Locker. He's like, we had all these brands that were distinctive brands, but they were all kind of like selling the same stuff. So what I did, or what he did was initiated that every one of these stores is gonna have its own identity where Foot Locker sells men's Foot Locker, you know.
shoes, kids' footlocker sells kids' shoes and women's footlocker sells women's shoes. And then Champs sells sportswear. And that's what they're going to do. And we're just going to be the people in the middle who make sure everything stays afloat and goes accordingly. And I thought, you know, we could do that with these three campuses instead of trying to like make them all the same. Why don't you empower each one to do what it does best and be who it is?
And a guy, an old guy in the meeting was like, I like that. Like I like that way of thinking. Yeah. And I thought, wow, I can just throw out analogies of things that are totally unrelated to this moment and it can land. And that's actually like, that's a sign of, I mean, that's just like, to me, I'm like, there's some value in that. Cause I don't think that happens in these meetings. I think we just beat our heads against the wall about the same sort of things.
speaker-0 (27:10.008)
as whippersnappers saying.
speaker-1 (27:33.206)
And so I feel free to just say, we thought of this? And then I see like clarity bubble up and I'm like, this is the same thing we would do in the studio. Like, have we tried this? You know?
speaker-0 (27:45.24)
Well, and especially if there's like a hot or a trendy thing in music, you don't necessarily find magic by trying to replicate that thing that's happening. It's like you are trying to draw out of this artist that which is unique. Yes. Because if it's not unique, it's not needed.
speaker-1 (28:07.234)
Yeah, it doesn't speak. And I think that's the same thing. Like what the moment I think that I see is like when you talk to churches is to say it's not about like, like what, and I don't even, I still have to kind of understand how this works in the Catholic faith has a governance system, you know, like there are rules and there are things to follow.
But there's also opportunity for like a parish in a local community to embody the identity of that community as it aligns with the greater church versus being sort of like a we're everything and also kind of nothing. Like we don't really have a firm identity. Versus just like what you are is your identity. But you have to look clearly at what you are. If we just kind of like
don't ever get real about this and have the hard conversations about, it's not even a hard conversation, just like, these are who our people are, this is what makes us great. Just own that.
speaker-0 (29:20.438)
So this, you probably didn't expect this question, but we were talking before we started recording about just like the fact that like the Catholic church, like the word Catholic means universal. that is like the identifying like label that is stuck, you know, with the church for millennia at this point. And yet there are different, like the author we were talking about, he's a Franciscan. And I know there's also...
Jesuits and like these different, you know, orders and whatnot. So how does some of those things that become traditions over multiple generations come into play as you're trying to help recognize something new while honoring some very clear rooted identity, you know, that's from a place?
speaker-1 (30:16.086)
I, I, I, it's funny, like as you said, I thought about, I'm reading a book called Range right now by a guy named David Epstein and it's really, really, really good. And it's like the whole premise of the book is that generalists thrive in a complicated, undefined domain, which our world right now is a little bit complicated and undefined in a lot of ways. Generalists.
versus specialists have sort of an advantage to thrive in those environments. And one thing that he talks about is when NASA was started and working towards Apollo 11, the space or the moon landing, that the culture at NASA was led in a way that I forget exactly how
what the word is that he uses, it's like there were, like chain of command was set. Like authority lived with the people that it was assigned to, but communication flowed freely. So the head would talk to anybody within any rank of the organization. And when that environment shifted to a hierarchy of communications,
things broke down. And what the author was saying was that, you know, when the authority is set, but communication is shared equally, it's kind of like there's a paradoxical nature to the organization. It's like that person's in charge, but yet like, they're really accessible. They don't hold a position above. It's a good, but they're definitely in charge. it's, so I think about that. I think about
Like one person comes to mind locally who is, it's like he embodies the most, he's one of the most like recognizable local Catholic people. He is a priest and yet he kind of does his own thing within the structure or within the rules, within the bounds of the faith. And so I've thought about that recently. Like, is he interpreting his own?
speaker-1 (32:41.964)
relationship with Jesus and with God? I mean, who's to say he's not called to do everything he is? But if we started thinking about the hierarchy and the chain of command and like the way things need to flow, then maybe we would say that he is acting out of line and doing his own thing, which is against the governance system.
But I think that maybe right now we live in a time where the Catholic Church is like the authority is set, but maybe the communication between God and his people flows freely. Maybe there's no intermediate between God and me to be talked to, know, to be guided. I feel that I I feel, I don't feel like God's
It's weird to say that. It's weird to say that. I mean, but you've had, you've sensed God talking to you.
speaker-0 (33:44.142)
Yeah, I mean, that's the words that I would use to describe that.
speaker-1 (33:48.174)
It's not the same voice as the self-conscious voice or the...
speaker-0 (33:55.672)
Yeah, yeah. You know what mean? That it's something else.
speaker-1 (33:58.392)
something else. came from out, it came from beyond, it came from other, but it was just me who heard it. I sw- I- it was re- I guess it changed my mind about something, you know? And I feel like that's where, that's where, like, I feel like I'm at with everything right now, because I don't know everything about- I actually don't know that much about the Catholic Church, the Catholic faith. I'm-
speaker-0 (34:22.514)
I was gonna ask you, and I'm not Catholic, but I live in Evansville and we've got a lot of Catholic folks in our community and influence and it's just part of our kind of fabric of our community. And I also know that globally there's a new pope and not only is he American, he's from the Midwest. so...
speaker-1 (34:46.862)
Somebody told me it uses AI.
speaker-0 (34:48.974)
He probably does. probably does. I don't know about him. He's a Chicago White Sox fan and you know, he speaks English as a first language. so I like, it makes me sort of wonder, like similarly to how, you know, Francis, I believe was from Argentina. Is that correct? asking.
speaker-1 (34:51.403)
No.
speaker-0 (35:11.126)
Someone's yelling into the phone right now, he's not from Argentina. I'm pretty sure he's from Argentina, if I'm wrong. Anyway, South America. But that that was kind of like a unique moment for that kind of corner of the world and the church. And now here you are in the Midwest with a Pope who's from the Midwest. That's interesting. And that's like...
You know, on some level, whoever the pope is can represent and speak for and be a beacon for all Catholics. But there is this unique sameness that folks in the Midwest can maybe rally behind.
speaker-1 (35:44.152)
Yeah.
speaker-1 (35:53.774)
That's interesting. That's interesting. think the Pope wrote a paper or published a Vatican document in January about AI and about what must remain sacred as we move beyond the next threshold of humanity. At the same time, I was getting into work with Tad, who I eventually did join, and Tad's into AI.
And I said, what if we wrote a book for AI for Catholic parishes where it's like a practical guide guided by the Vatican, guided by the guidance given by the Vatican. gives, because people who work in churches and parishes, like staff and volunteers who are very Catholic would, I mean,
getting guidance from the Catholic Church is like getting governance law from civic law. You know what I mean? It's like a, it's how you orient yourself in the world. And so I thought maybe there's a way where we could interpret what the Pope is saying and what the church is saying, and then put that into a practical sort of...
guide of here's the common areas that perish to share administrative work that could be improved or in a sense automated using AI.
speaker-0 (37:29.954)
Maybe it's an audiobook that you guys release as a podcast.
speaker-1 (37:34.19)
Could be. I told Ted we should do it. Because we're almost done drafting the whole thing. Yeah, it's almost finished. But what it's turned into is a whole sort of exploration of like, and now I know because I've been reading about it more that this is like a broader conversation that once, like I think that the pessimistic view has been existing of AI.
And then clearly some people hold a very optimistic view. where they work on it and build it. But then there seems to be more of a general optimistic view that, what, like the question of like, then what does life mean on the other side of AI? Because maybe like the stuff that it's gonna automate wasn't that interesting to begin with. writing, like,
digital communications or like tracking things or coming up like doing research patterns. You know, I shouldn't like dismiss that. I just mean like maybe paperwork was never that human of an activity to start with.
speaker-0 (38:45.966)
I mean, yeah, I can think of a few different examples of things that technology has just rendered obsolete towards even hard. It's hard to even remember what life was like before that, let alone to miss it or to like, have regarded it as some sort of sacred part or essential part of the human experience. It's like, it's already been forgotten.
speaker-1 (39:07.874)
Yes.
speaker-0 (39:08.11)
And maybe someone could argue we should go back to those times. And you do see that instinct of people, know, I the Luddites are like kind of a famous example of people that don't want, you know, technology and progress to march on. But there can be that tendency of rose-colored glasses towards, you know, what we used to have and where we used to be.
But I think you're right with AI that it has reached a point of almost a, well, singularity is a complicated word, but an integration into so much of our lives that it cannot be ignored. It is a part of what truly all of us will have to be experiencing with. And it's not, do you engage with AI or not? It's how do you engage with it appropriately according to your values? And how does the church...
help people to facilitate that and participate as well.
speaker-1 (40:08.354)
And I think that's the conversation. That's what's exciting to me. It's like, I am not at any level technically inclined or a part of any front wave of innovation on AI at all. I mean, I use it all the time and I've made some agents within chat GBT. We have mostly used Claw now and I've been taking some certifications through, I'm a halfway down with a Google Pro certification.
I've completed one small certification with Anthropic and just completed an AI ethics certificate from John Hopkins. Cause I thought that sounded notable. so like I'm putting myself into this, this world, but from a different angle. And this is what's exciting is I think that the work that TAD does connected with my interest and just where we come from is like we could
There's still the, there's a problem that AI and humans, like there's still like a, there's an adoption gap. There's still like a human behavior thing that we all have to, cause you can have all the tools in the world, but like your willingness to give up some of your paperwork to do, to step into using those tools to then have more time to be more human. That's a really big,
question and so who's helping people work through? Well, I have three or four hours back every week, what's my job? It's like maybe part of your job is to work less and be more human.
speaker-0 (41:54.722)
Do the things that you called to do. you're coming at it from a, already know what you value. What are the things that are take up your time that no longer serve that value? Which gets back to the whole point of this conversation about the podcast for you started to become something that was no longer serving what you valued the most.
speaker-1 (42:20.59)
That's right. That's right.
speaker-0 (42:22.552)
So we're here in May of 26 in June. You'll become a father of three. And I think I've told you, I know I've told you that that third kid can be a little bit of a backbreaker for at least, you know, the two of you, you know, if you guys were on your own and I've got a lot of great family support, but yeah. So you're preparing for that knowing that it's going to, you know, change things. think.
speaker-1 (42:39.47)
I'm sure of
speaker-0 (42:50.478)
Tad might have even been the one that said you go from playing man to man. To zone. Right. And all that's true. All that's true as a father of three, you know, I can tell you that all that is true. And then these new opportunities with Tad and AI. Like, is there anything else that we haven't covered that you feel kind of called to or curious about that it's gonna...
be able to fill in some of this space that you are creating by, you know, pouring one out for the podcast.
speaker-1 (43:28.588)
What I just thought about was how every, I've always been super attached to my identity as the music guy. Sort of why I started the podcast too, was to like live out that next version of the music guy. And when I, when the opportunity presented itself to partner with Tad, for the first time, I thought,
I have the chance to work underneath somebody who I can learn from and take a humble approach and not be the guy out in front trying to do everything and take care of everybody like I thought I had to do in music the whole time and spend so much money doing it and so much time and so many things that I did, which was all...
It was all what I did. So I don't regret any of it. It's just, I learned a lot and I saw the opportunity that like, I saw 10 years in front of me for the first time in 10 years, I would say that I'm like, wow, I could see myself doing this for the next 10 years and not having to be the center of attention or the front man.
speaker-0 (44:48.33)
I heard somebody call it the person in the spotlight. You wanted to be everybody else.
speaker-1 (44:55.278)
Yes. And now I can be everybody else on my own. Not that I was, not that I'm somebody else, but just to like, to be and to put myself in situations where, and the more that I do this, the less interested I become in sort of being the center. Except for today, this really nice. So thank you. But is, is the more that I say yes to things like
And I still am going to take you up on this. know we had some bourbons, so I don't know if you remember, going to see the young incarcerated men and playing basketball with them. then like I hung out with my father-in-law on Sunday and we went and administered communion to some older people in an old folks home. And being in that place was just like real as shit, you know? And so I just think like,
I feel called to more by doing less. Whatever that means, you know.
speaker-0 (46:00.116)
I recently connected with a gentleman, I'll keep his name private, pretty well known in like my church background, my religious upbringing, and very successful, and speaking, book writing, know, stages, and gifted for it.
It wasn't like he had all of these opportunities and he wasn't worthy of them. But he found out, discovered, hit him, whatever you want to say in the last handful of years, as he's definitely in middle age now, that he probably spent the first half of his life with something to say, and he's going to spend the second half of his life listening.
and putting himself in situations to where other people are sharing their stories with him. And, yeah, now that I think about it, I guess that is how we were able to connect was he had created an opportunity to sit, to have someone sit in front of him so he could listen. And I took the opportunity to sit in that empty chair and I received the way he shared that.
story as wisdom and I can see how it's starting to manifest in you as you have identified, you know, somebody that you can trust and follow and serve and grow with. And it's been kind of cool to see how Tad looks back at you and sees your potential and is drawing it out of you and the ways that you're helping to kind of raise his game as well.
I don't really have a question in there. I'm just sitting here just helping you up.
speaker-1 (47:55.31)
Plus, thank you, dude. I poured all over like milk on like on our friend. But, and I think that what's really interesting is I said this to somebody yesterday, is he somebody that I met through working at AZIP, which was one of my first jobs moving back to this area in 2018, that we were talking about you somehow and I said,
this guy would just come through the line at A-Zip and talk to me. And then sometimes I would go clean the dining room and talk to him. And I said that he would give me just interest, like, what are you doing? know, what are you up to? What are you doing back there? And we resonated with each other. And it's through my relationship with you that I have met Tad, even though we have a bunch of different connections.
that I've met several of the men in my life now who I would call mentors, who I see out in the community or get coffee with or have dinner with or we meet up at your house or other places that have, I always wanted a mentor when I was younger. I would hear these like business people say, know, whoever, you got to get a mentor. Like the Gary V type people, you got to get a mentor.
I was thinking, how do you get a mentor? You just go get them somewhere? Where do these people exist? And coming back here to Evansville, to the area, and then meeting you and then becoming close with you, then has opened up a whole network of people that now it's, this is where I'm at, this is my place, this is where I wanna be. So I thank you for everything.
Well, not that we're not going to talk again this week, but...
speaker-0 (49:48.748)
Yeah, yeah, it's been nice knowing you. Well, and it was encouraging to hear you sharing a story about talking to some, you know, person in their early 20s who is kind of a mutual. And it's like, now Wes gets to play that mentor card, you know, a little bit. And yeah, the mentor thing is interesting because it's, in some ways you can't.
speaker-1 (49:51.17)
Ha ha ha!
speaker-1 (50:03.278)
think I'm have a second here.
speaker-0 (50:18.158)
choose it, but it's almost like you choose to be open to it and then the mentor kind of shows up and you know you have the full body yes when it's like, okay, I'm going to be able to receive something from this person as wisdom. And you can have mentors that don't know that they are your mentor, you know, from afar. I think we both look at Rick Rubin in lot of ways. He mentors us and has no idea that we exist in a lot of ways.
And so I think the fact though that you are aware of that is preparing you and in fact allowing you to be able to be that for others when it happens. And I kind of remember when that sort of started to happen to me as well, when you get past a certain age and you're looking for mentors, then all of a sudden you look behind you at someone young and you're like, shit, someone's looking at me. Yeah.
Okay, and that gives you another sense of that responsibility of making sure that there's integrity in what you are trying and that whatever risks you're trying to take in your creativity, that they are explored and discarded as they don't fit, like you were talking about alcohol and weed and whatnot, and then the ones that work and resonate and you want to create rhythms around that you
plant and water and nourish and.
speaker-1 (51:49.326)
Well, you see, I remember just a couple people in the last 10 years who like you look in their eyes and they're older and you think, what do you see in me? Well, they see themselves. They see themselves stumbling around and like trying to figure it, but trying, trying to figure something out. And then you think like, could, I want you to succeed because I want myself to succeed. And I know that we're all just here for a blip.
And so if I can help you down the road and you can help the next guy behind you, then I think that's going to be better than not helping you. And I think that I just didn't grow up around some people, like, wasn't a whole lot of that as a culture just around me of men being real men, not manly man. Like,
real, like we want you to figure it out. We want to be with you during hard times. We want to encourage you. We want to cry together, laugh together, do all the things together as men. And it feels very tribal. It feels very human. I think that's what, just, it's alongside marrying my wife, one of the best things that ever happened to me was finding the men in my life.
speaker-0 (53:12.064)
I'm telling you, got to listen to this Eric Church commencement like address. circle. It's amazing. I, we're recording this, I don't know, guess days after it happened. And I predict time will tell. I predict that this will like sort of go down as like in the pantheon of commencement speeches, Steve Jobs has a super famous one. David Foster Wallace.
This is in that like category. And he is a country artist again, like he must be a big deal if I've heard of him. And he's asked to give this commencement speech. I'm not going to spoil it. I'm just going to tease it. Great. But he is struggling in the preparation for it. And he is like, I think University of North Carolina alum, and he like bleeds Tar Heel blue and all this kind of stuff. And he really wants to do a great job for this. It's a big deal for him. But the words aren't coming.
speaker-1 (53:48.846)
That's right.
speaker-0 (54:10.218)
And he's just pissed off and he's everything he throws against the wall, nothing is sticking. And like, he looks over and he's, there's his guitar and he's like, I have to tell this commencement speech with my guitar. he puts his, so he's, he's talking about the planning for it. then during the speech, he then, you know, grabs guitar, the crowd goes wild, you know, and he puts it on and he says, you know, there's something that you don't need any training for to know when you experience it and know when it's wrong.
when there's a note that's out of place and then he plays his untuned guitar and we all hear that note. And then he establishes each string on the guitar as a core aspect of your life. That when you hear it out of tune, you know that something needs to change. And he builds on it in such a...
away to where I'm sitting there nodding my head like, yep, that is truth. That is real. He's right. He's got it. it was just, it's really neat thing to experience somebody's wisdom and voice coming through in that way. And so for you, your voice in this format and this podcast, you knew it was time to hang up the mic.
speaker-1 (55:31.01)
Yeah, that's right, yes.
speaker-0 (55:33.332)
And that is happening. And there may come a time again, or you have to pick it up. And I think what's wonderful about life is you don't know what, even though you saw 10 years into the future, you don't know what two years is going to, you may be having another kid. There may be something else that you're called into that, you know, brings this experience back and you dust off the briefcase and you.
speaker-1 (55:48.013)
Yeah.
speaker-1 (55:52.727)
Yeah.
speaker-0 (56:01.634)
Pick up the microphone again.
speaker-1 (56:03.694)
Well thank you man, this was great. It's funny as you're talking about the notes, behind you there's this sun popping up over these perfectly, these perfect lines behind you. It made me think about just like those core things, building your version of what those things are, filling in those gaps with my wife, my community, my belief, my work, all these things.
speaker-0 (56:32.398)
You gotta listen to, you're gonna go listen to him and be like, oh, I just said the same thing. Like those are the notes. I haven't even heard it, but it's like, it's the truth. It's amazing. it's like, it's not, oh, wow, he's so great. He's so wise. It's just like through him in this context, he let the truth flow through him. And it's, like I said, I kind of, I predict this is going to be one of those powerful, long lasting.
speaker-1 (56:39.223)
Yeah
speaker-0 (57:00.174)
talks that people return to and honestly, maybe one of the things that he's known for more than his music even.
speaker-1 (57:07.438)
That's amazing. He does have some good songs though, so we'll see. Alright, thank you.
speaker-0 (57:10.946)
We'll see. Alright, thanks man. Till next time. Whenever that may be. That's right. Wherever that may be.
speaker-1 (57:17.582)
That's right. Alright.