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GameWell is the ultimate podcast destination for anyone navigating the intricate world of game development. Tailored for industry professionals, aspiring developers, and game enthusiasts alike, this show offers a deep dive into the heart of game creation. Listeners can expect a treasure trove of knowledge, from insider tips on enhancing creativity and productivity to vital discussions on mental health in the gaming industry. Each episode is packed with interviews from diverse experts, ensuring a well-rounded perspective that enriches both your professional skills and personal well-being. Tune in to GameWell, where each session is a step towards mastering the art and science of game development.Â
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Intro:Welcome to GameWell, the podcast about a thriving future in games, from well-being and creativity to optimization and performance.
Kevin:Welcome to this episode of GameWell. Today, I have with me, Christopher Mifsud. He is the CEO of Play on Words Studio. He also is doing consulting and coaching work at Press Start Leadership, making a difference as how we are leaders in the game space. Welcome, Christopher.
Kevin:Why don't you introduce yourself as well in terms if I've missed something?
Christopher:No. They covered they covered everything. But yeah. No. I'm Christopher Mifsud.
Christopher:I'm based in Malta. I'm originally from the United States, but been working and traveling all over the world, in the video game industry, and consulting and helping studios, just, you know, be better, do better, and, achieve achieve more.
Kevin:Cool. Well, I I asked you to join the, the podcast today because I really want to highlight some of the, things that you have been talking about on your podcast and the things you've been writing on leadership and, how we're kind of looking at the game space in in a whole, how we can make a difference. Mhmm. So why don't you maybe tell the audience and me what what your philosophy is around? What's what's the the centerpiece around leadership in your eyes?
Christopher:For me, I focus mostly on servant leadership. There's a lot of different leadership styles, but, at the heart, I I'm a strong believer in servant leadership. So basically listening to your team, doing everything you can to make the team succeed, you know, and and then there's a then there's a mix too. Right? So I also do a little bit of mindfulness and a little bit of what I call awesomeness in there.
Christopher:So, you know, that's that's pretty much what I I discussed most of the time. So So it's mostly focused on servant leadership. It's leadership as a whole. But if you listen to any of my podcasts or reading my blogs, it's mostly you'll see the backing is in servant leadership. And then, I do a little quite a bit on mindfulness and then, a little bit of production and and design, but, you know, that's where I call the awesomeness.
Kevin:Nice. Well, why did you select those three elements of of leadership? What what made you go while these are in my eyes the most important parts of them?
Christopher:Well, for servant leadership, I feel that's just how you help teams succeed, especially in the video game industry. Right? It's a creative it's a creative industry. You you have, folks from all different disciplines, coming together and as a leader, your job isn't really to dictate how they get to where they get. It's just simply to make sure that they get there and that you're you have the long view on things and that your team is just able to succeed and have the tools that they need to succeed.
Christopher:Right? And then from the mindfulness standpoint, it's a stressful industry. And there's I think there's a lots of mindfulness and breath work and just, you know, meditation as well that just kinda help you get through all the stresses of it. You know, a lot of folks don't last in this industry very long, because they get burned out or, you know, there are other industries that are a little bit more rewarding in different aspects. So, you know, when when you're talking crunch, when you're talking work work life balance and those things are kind of out of whack, I think being able to teach people techniques and ways to get back in the balance, quickly, is, is handy.
Christopher:Right? And then just from the the game design production side, I think it's there's not enough folks that are doing best practices or or a lot of people are just winging it and they don't know. Right? It is an industry that's full of Indies that somehow get bigger and bigger, but proper processes and procedures aren't really brought in until very late. Right.
Christopher:So I just try to teach those as early as possible so that people can just have the the chance to succeed even higher at an earlier rate.
Kevin:Nice. Nice. Where would you lie the most focus on and and what makes you choose that out of those 3?
Christopher:A leadership? I mean, again, leadership. It's the the the one thing that, teams don't get taught a lot, especially in the video game industry. Right. When I came into the video game industry, the first thing I saw was there's a lot of people are really good at what they do, but they haven't been taught any of the basics of how to manage teams, how to, you know, and these are, these are all things that are very teachable.
Christopher:But what we tend to do is we tend to like highlight somebody who's really good at coding or really good artist. And then, you know, as the as the tasks become too big or too high, we start hiring more people. And then we say, hey, you're the most experienced person. Maybe not the best leader, but the best most experienced person now lead this team. And, you know, some people succeed because they, you know, they just they rise to the occasion.
Christopher:But I see a lot of people fail, when they rather just been doing the job they were really good at as opposed to managing a bunch of other people. It's not always the same skills. Right? So, you know, when I came in, I was a decent designer. I was a much better manager and leader.
Christopher:I'd much rather help other people, you know, do better at their job and and help them succeed and be better at what they do. And we get better results. So
Kevin:Why don't we move this? Because you're also CEO from your own studio. Right? Why why don't we move this into how you're applying it yourself Sure. In the role as a CEO?
Christopher:Well, I mean, I'm building teams. I'm also working with a lot of external, teams as well. So for me, you know, this is where the best practices come in, less of the, I mean, I have a very small team that executes on everything that we do. And then, we we don't hire up or flex up. We tend to work with freelancers and consultants that, I've worked with in the past that I have good relationships with.
Christopher:So the idea here is that, you know, I let my team do what they're really good at and then what we're not really good at, we we seek outside and we bring them in to do this stuff, do the stuff that they rock at. And then we implement and keep on going with execution on that. From the but this does take a lot of this is where the best practices comes in. Right? This is where knowing how production works, how, the design, having very clear features and asks of your outsourcing and your consultants and your freelancers is very, very important.
Christopher:Like, I don't I could see where using this technique could fail very quickly if you're just hiring freelancers and consultants to do the work, But you're not really giving them the guidance that they need to execute exactly. Like, we have very clear objectives and needs. And we're able to communicate that out to our, you know, the people we have working for us, which works really well for us. This could be very costly for somebody else who doesn't know exactly what they want or what they need. Right?
Christopher:And this is where maybe internally hiring some of those roles might be more important or better to do just because, you know, you'll you'll have the time and the ability to work with people and flesh out those ideas. But if you have a very clear vision, you have a very good production plan, you have a very clear design, I think execution on these things is it becomes a lot easier. But I like to give my team, you know, as much freedom, within a little bit of restraints. I put the restraints on myself, and I let them get crazy with their ideas and do what they need to do, and then I reel them back in to what's, you know, doable within our, you know, time and budgeting.
Kevin:Nice. Well, if one were wanting to try this good practice, what would you say are things you need to have in, in perfect place or in good order before you go and and get some from the outside in order for you not to damage the game, the title, and also the team that you're working on, because I could see that there there it might cost more in the end. Right?
Christopher:I mean, you definitely a clear vision and a clear idea of what the end result is. Right. You have to have that, that far, like not so deep in the weeds, but you have to at least have the far view of what you're trying to achieve. Right. And I always suggest, I mean, I teach, I mentor and teach a lot of different teams.
Christopher:And the first thing I tell everyone before they go too far, right, before they start working on the double jump, know what the jump is, right? So for me, I always say start with a one sheet, get a really clear idea of what your your elevator pitch for your game is, what the overall concept and overview of the game is, what your feature list is. Then take that, build it out to a GDD, right? Fill in your gdd or your pitch document depending where what stage you are and everything. But generally go to gdd and make sure that all those features you called out in that simple one sheet is all there in your GDD and that you go into more details there and then build that out into a production plan and make sure you're not missing missing anything there.
Christopher:And And just kinda get a good idea of all the different pieces that you need. And then, you know, figure out, you know, as you're what what what's needed to deliver on those pieces. Right? And clearly call out what, you know, what each aspect is and what each task and everything like that. Are you gonna catch everything?
Christopher:No. There's always gonna be unknowns that pop up here and there. But I think winging it or not having a plan or figuring it out as you go is disastrous. And I think this also comes and no. And and I would say the other thing is have a little fiscal responsibility.
Christopher:I find that that there's a lot of that lacking in in teams is just knowing what things cost and and thinking that they have forever to ideate or forever to, you know, keep making changes or or things like that. There you know, there's a finance budget for and that's what I think got a lot of companies in trouble, is is the lack of fiscal responsibility and and not even and then not sharing that even with their team and making them aware. Right? Like, I'm not saying burden your team with every cost. But I do have to say that do make them aware of what changes and constantly changing and not settling on something and that, you know, there is something to be said about finding the fun, right?
Christopher:You do have to take a little bit of time for that. But I think there's a lot of things you can do in pre production before you even start costing things out, and spending money that would actually save you in the long run of finding that fun early on, and then moving along. But I know there's some people that are like, oh, no. You need all the time in the world. You need to be able to do all kinds of craziness.
Christopher:And I say good for you if you have an unlimited budget. You know? But, I think, you know, we don't always have that. So if that's the case, I think being, you know, smart about how you you handle things. Right?
Christopher:And executing on things and being more clever, in what you do. I think, you know, there's there's nothing wrong with having a plan and multiple plans. I think where I see people fail is where they don't have one.
Kevin:Yeah. Okay. And I've I've heard you talk a lot about knowing what the end goal is, and that's that's I I think that's kind of going into the what the watch you're building. What is the game you're building? What is the title?
Kevin:What is the mechanisms and all that? Right? I think there's there's even more layers to this. Right? It's, why you're building this particular game.
Kevin:Why do you have this particular team? How are you building it? What is the how? Like, what are the mechanisms that you feel are important to address there? How how does it look for you in real life as well?
Kevin:Like, maybe you could have some concrete example that you've been facing, of a scenario or something so people can live themselves more into it and maybe have a little bit of an immersive experience while they're listening to this, this. Right? If possible.
Christopher:Sure. I mean, I mean, your your team is key. Like, once you figured out what you're making, right. I think how you make it is, is your team. Right.
Christopher:And, or the, or the resource, other resources like freelancers, contractors, and so forth. So, you have to have a really good idea of who and what everybody is and what they're doing and what their responsibilities are and making sure that they have the right skill sets. If they don't have the right skill sets, how do you either compliment those what they lack, right, or or, you know, or or just live with the quality level that you're gonna get based off of what what you have at your disposal. Right?
Kevin:I
Christopher:used to work in the film industry early on in special effects makeup specifically. And the way that process worked was you could have a couple people that were really strong in different departments and people that weren't so strong in some others. And the end result would still be pretty good because one person could make up for another one's deficiencies here and there. Right? And I think it's the same thing in the video game industry, to be honest.
Christopher:Like, you can have folks that are really, really strong in some departments. Not everyone has to. You're not as weak as the weakest link. You're as strong as your strongest link. I think people do lift each other up, and I think that's a better way to to to kind of look at it.
Christopher:So I'm just trying to think of, like, I had a couple instances where early on, I put some folks that I wasn't sure about on some smaller tasks, right? I went out and I had some some some things to test them out on. And I think that worked out pretty well because in some cases, they rocked and they were awesome. And I was able to know that I could go forward working with them. And then I had other ones that I was horrified by, but because the risk was low and the costing was low, it wasn't like I didn't do too much damage to my budget.
Christopher:I was able to kind of pivot, find somebody else who was the right fit, right? And I think if you do have the ability to wait for the right fit sometimes or find the right fit, definitely do it, especially for hiring. Long term hiring, definitely take the time to find the right person. Don't just hire heads and hands because you need someone because I think it does more damage in the long term than, than taking the time to find the right person who can execute on it. Right?
Christopher:Like, just to give you I was I had one developer, they were, it took, like, 5 weeks to do turn down the end to be useful as a reference, but not very very useful in the final piece where it's been like I found another developer who was excellent amazing. I really wanted him, but he wasn't available right away. And then I got him to work. And he did 1 week with that, what I had got to and more and got turned in from the other person's work for 5 weeks. So, again, it was one of the situations where I felt desperate, impressed.
Christopher:And so I went with the the other person because I I thought, oh, I need this done. And and had I just waited and been a little bit more patient, I would have gotten, you know, that and saved myself a little. But it's a learning thing. Right? You never know.
Christopher:And you you wanna give people chances again as long as it's it's low cost or doesn't have a high impact on your overall, you know, you you sometimes you do need to give people chances to grow or give an opportunity and so forth. Right? That's cool.
Kevin:Well, usually I do this at the start, but, I feel like it's it'd be nice to hear a little bit more about you as a person, what gets you going and what you're passionate about and what what what is your view of why you're making games and why you're in this medium and what got you here. Yeah. Well, I'll start with that. Otherwise, it's getting too complex.
Christopher:Well, no. It's such a good I mean, it it also I mean, I I was very fortunate. I grew up in the United States. My father owned a comic bookstore. My mother was a new age hippie.
Christopher:I read a lot of, choose your own adventure books at Atari 26100. I was running d and d games for my friends at 10 years old. My parents had me reading, you know, philosophy, eastern religion, and so forth at a very young age. I watched a ton of movies and any kind of cultural things that are going on, nerdy culture. That was my life.
Christopher:Right? And then when I went into college, I studied philosophy and religious studies and focused on, logic and, Eastern Mysticism, which, you know, actually ended up having a ton of application into things I did later on just because, you know, being able to think about different things and coming from things from a logical standpoint. And then I went to I actually went to school for a special effects makeup. As I mentioned, I worked in the film industry for a little while. And as a hobbyist, I always was doing game design.
Christopher:I was helping run larps, live action role playing games, and Nice. Writing stuff as a hobby and stuff. And then eventually, I had the opportunity, to move from movies into working in the video game industry and working on games that were tied to film. That was kinda how I got brought in. Right?
Christopher:They were like, hey. You've worked on film and understand movies. I was like, yeah. I know how to break down the script and do all sorts of stuff. And they said, oh, you design games too?
Christopher:I said, yeah. And then it just so happened that also, while I was doing all that, because it was early on the career, I was also working retail.
Kevin:And
Christopher:I actually had a ton of I got I was working retail management, and I actually got a lot of training, proper training. These people you can tease and poo poo on retail all you want, but these companies actually have pretty good management training systems. Right? Because they've got volume of people that need training these great systems. And so I got through 2 different companies, like, full pro training programs.
Christopher:And when I got into the video game industry, it was like, boop, do your job. But also, you know, I kinda rose to the occasion really quickly and and started managing teams because I actually already knew how to do that because I was doing it. And so this is where I kind of noticed there was that missing piece, right? And so though I love game design, one of the big things for me was is observing processes and seeing how they can be improved. And so that's kinda what I ended up doing is even though I was I was doing game design, I was actually leading teams and figuring out how to make do proper pipelines and, you know, this was 2020 plus years ago.
Christopher:So, like, Jira and Scrum Agile was getting into the industry, and Yep. We weren't having formal training in that. So it was even, like, learning how to do that and then implementing that into a studio. And then so things that get me excited is I love game design. I really do, and I like being creative.
Christopher:But, what I really love is is once you get done with the game design, is it's doing all that resource management, the planning, all the organizational things. Like, I get got charts make me excited. I get I get excited looking at, like, timelines and coming up with plan a, b, and c. And, you know, right now, I mentor a lot of, other little other startups besides my own company. And they there a lot of them are in this process right now where they're finishing out their g d d, and they're they're moving on to doing a production plan.
Christopher:And I'm getting all excited sharing tools and telling them how to, like, fix things and, like, it's, like, in my sleep, I love it. Like, I I do planning in my sleep. I had plan a, plan b, plan c. So, there was a joke at one of my old companies that, but when sort of a joke, I feel like he, he took it for granted sometimes too, but he was always like, oh, don't worry. Chris always has a plan.
Christopher:And it'd be because, like, I walk through the hallway and I'd hear the CEO just say something random, and I'd be like, uh-oh. And then I'd start thinking, like, how do we plan and fix for that? Right? And then we'd be in a meeting and he would say it. And I was like, alright.
Christopher:Well, don't worry. We could do this, this, and this. And this is kinda how I got into that that piece. The other part I really, really enjoy, is a little bit on the biz dev side. I don't like biz dev, but I actually like sales a little bit.
Christopher:And I like working with clients and customers. So like, I like working with external publishers and and, you know, clients that do for it's work for hire. Right? I like being the kind of the the in between and and helping make sure that they get what they want, but then also making sure the team's taken care of and kind of being that that mouthpiece for for both sides of things. Right?
Christopher:Had a nickname in another company called the client whisper because they would bring me in, and I would work with our clients that they were upset about. Even on projects that weren't mine, I get brought in. And I would just help explain, like, why things were done the way they were done and how we can improve it and how we can improve the communication. So, I was gonna say communication, planning, and then, you know, creative are the 3 things that kind of drew me into and I get to do all of that all the time. And mentoring, I really do like mentoring my teams, right?
Christopher:So, and then, yeah, that's that's like the bonus side is I get to work with a lot of new CEOs or new new teams that I've never done any of this stuff before and kinda teach them and and show them best practices, you know. Obviously, they all have to find their own way, right? Like, you can give suggestions, but at the end of the day, I always say it's your company, it's your whatever. You need me to make the decision on what you feel is the best way to do it. All I can do is say, this didn't work in the past.
Christopher:I haven't seen it work. But if you wanna try it again differently, maybe you got maybe you'll make it work. Right? But, you know, just try and make them steer clear of the icebergs. Right?
Christopher:So.
Kevin:Yeah. I, all I'm hearing is, Christopher, the war general, it's like the art of war, looking at the battlefield, listening to different things, and then solving the problems that are coming up.
Christopher:It's very true. So they're the biggest pacifist in the world, but yeah. No. I, the I mean, don't worry about it. Like, there there are a number of like, Sun Tzu's Art of War, I do do like, but I don't ever recommend that for, a new a new leader.
Christopher:Like, there's certain books that I avoid. Right? Like, I that one is one. Also, the how to win friends and influence people, I tell people not to do that one right away. Yep.
Christopher:Right? That's like a a later a later one. I think I think there's good principles in there. But I think if people jump into that very early into their leadership career, there's there's some harsh tactics in there that I don't think, are are are the right way to start off. So
Kevin:Yeah. I I read that one way too early. It was not it was not great. I was in my, my new cortex wasn't ready for for the the whole processing to make that in a in a proper way. But what I'm also hearing you say is that there's some values that seem to be beneficial for a leader.
Kevin:So one would be curiosity and openness to listening, and then interconnectedness. Right? Looking at the broad picture, kind of opening your mind, looking open to that. But I'm also hearing you well, even though you don't say you say don't read The Art of War by Sun Tzu early on, I think there's still some value with one of the basic principles of that where it's know yourself, know the terrain, know the enemy. Right?
Kevin:And the enemy is not necessarily a person because if you're looking at the terrain or if you're not looking at the terrain, you're maybe looking at people that might be a problem, but it's not something that's occurring within the system.
Christopher:Oh, sure. For sure. Yeah. Yeah. No.
Christopher:Okay.
Kevin:That's really
Christopher:But I would if I was gonna recommend a book, I would say on the flip of that would be Laozi's, the Daodejing. Right? Oh, wow. Yeah. That's a that's a that's a a treaties on how a prince should rule his people.
Christopher:Right? And, that's all I mean, that is pure servant leadership in of itself. So the, great principles there on that.
Kevin:And I know that
Christopher:oh, go ahead.
Kevin:Yeah. Go ahead.
Christopher:I was just gonna say the so you mentioned the the openness thing, and that's because there's one of another person I listen to and read to quite a bit, and he's passed out at this point, but was Wayne Dyer. And he had a philosophy of open to everything and attached to nothing. And it's a really hard way to live life because obviously, we always have the baggage that we carry with us, whether it's culturally or or whatever. But, if you really can approach things being very open and realizing that there are other perspectives and the whole attached to nothing means that doesn't mean they don't have values. Obviously, have them.
Christopher:But be open to those values being malleable based off of new information and things that you have. Right? And, it's really like one of the key principles that I try to try to live by is that whole, you know, open everything attached to nothing. It's tricky. It doesn't work all the time.
Christopher:Right? Because there's definitely things that I'm just like, oh, what? No. But it's a it definitely is allowed, again, like you said, be, adaptable to the to the scene. Right?
Christopher:No. You know, you're you're thinking the the other the other good hook, again, just caught some folks that that talk about that principle you're talking about about knowing that the field is, the 1st 90 days. It's one of the it's a book that I recommend to any leader that's coming into a new organization, or even just starting a new role in an organization or whatever is just, you know, basically breaks down the whole like, don't just go in and make big changes, like, take a moment, observe what's actually needs to be done for this company in this situation. Who are your allies? What are low hanging fruit?
Christopher:What are some plans that you could put into place? How you have actionable things. Right? And, again, all these principles are very intertwined. Right?
Christopher:Like, they're all, again, it's all about being somewhat of a tactician, like you kind of mentioned. Right? But it's, it's just knowing all the variables that are in place and just realize that, you know, you you only you only have as much informed information as you have. Right? And there's always the the stuff, the unknowns that that's why having those secondary plans, tertiary plans, whatever the word for fortuary, port quarter or tertiary plans would be, you know.
Christopher:So a b c d plans. I love that. That's easier to do.
Kevin:It's it's a lot easier to say. And, probably also easier to remember, no matter how old you are. Yeah. There's a lot of things. I mean, you, you mentioned the Dao de Ching.
Kevin:I know there's a lot of different translations. Do you have a favorite author for a proper translation of that?
Christopher:I've read. So this was one of the books I focused on quite a bit in in college. And to be honest, I think I've read at least 10 different translations of it. They're all very similar to each other. I don't feel like there's one that that holds the core more than another one, to be honest.
Christopher:Okay. So just I think you're pretty you're pretty yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think the very yeah.
Christopher:There there's I don't think there's I don't think I've ever read one and said, oh, that's a really weird way to put that. I mean, unless it was, like, a super direct translation, but I don't think I've ever read, one like Nice.
Kevin:Let's go maybe into because these are very universal principles of leadership that could apply to any field. Right? I I would love to go into maybe some areas of, the studio organization or leadership that is a very game specific.
Christopher:Game specific. See, this is the thing I find interesting is is is that leave it, like, leadership principles are there are, like, just kind of foundational things. Right? But I guess specific I don't know. The the I guess it's a one of you say, okay, but this comes in handy, I will say for video game energy because there's a, there's a principle that, someone I used to work with a long time ago, we called it the high five theory.
Christopher:He was really big in the high fives and it's really more of 5, right? Is that is that you shouldn't have more than 5 to 7 direct reports. Mhmm. Because after that, it becomes very hard to actually give them the proper attention, that they need. Right?
Christopher:Because I mean, there's a lot of studios that feel like, oh, we're a we're a working manager, studio. So 80 80% work, 20% management. And I don't, again, if you I don't think you're giving your teams the proper attention they need to actually, succeed. And I also puts a lot of that also puts a lot of work on the the manager. And I think, like, there's there's a number of things as a leader and as a manager that you need to have time to focus for planning, for mentoring, for checking in and so forth.
Christopher:And then if you're on top of that actually doing work, I don't think it's I don't think it's a path to success. I know it works for some people, but I think there are now that now that also to be said, do you just need managers for management's sake? No. Right? There needs to be a balance between there.
Christopher:Right? I do think there are some companies that are a little heavy on the management layers. But I do feel that, if you have a team and you start to get past the 5 to 7, maybe you don't split the team, but you do need to get some support. Right? So if you're a director and you have a team of 5 or 6 or 7, and then you get to 8, maybe look at one of those members who you've hopefully been training and mentoring or whatever and are ready for a leadership role to make them a lead.
Christopher:Right. And then they can take some of the responsibility off of you, to like for the mentoring and coaching. Right. So maybe you check-in with him and then they take or her, and then you take on 3, they like they take on 3 and then you take on the other 4. Right?
Christopher:And you kinda split the the duties there and you've got somebody who's basically, you know, ready to kind of maybe hopefully take over your role when you move on to something else, either above or or whatever. Right? Succession plans I think are really, really important and something that is of an overlooked and underutilized in the video game industry and people get caught surprised all the time. Like, why don't we have somebody ready or whatever, right, for this role. And then you have to look externally.
Christopher:And then there's always the gamble if the person you bring in isn't the right fit. But you're kind of just, you know, you're just checking off a bunch of boxes a lot of times. So again, it's not just for the video game industry, obviously, what I'm talking about here, but I feel like like what I feel is useful for the video game industry is to do all the things that are useful in the the regular leadership roles and use them. Like, there's a reason why these things work in other companies and they have succession plans and they they do have fast tracking for rock stars and unicorns or whatever you wanna call those top top tier people. That's how you keep that's how you retain teams.
Christopher:Right? I think again the video game industry suffers from the fact that it's a very creative industry with not with a lot of folks who don't have very have a lot of business training or acumen. And then you bring in people who do, but they don't, but they lack the passion or the creativity. So then there's a dissonance between the 2. And then you see a lot of the actions that end up happening, in our industry where studios are shut down, these great creative things or whatever because of bottom line and dollars and stuff like that.
Christopher:Right? But I feel if if we just took a little bit of time in training the creatives with some of these skills, because they're all very trainable things, that we don't have to necessarily give up our power and influence within our industry to folks who don't actually care about our industry, but just care about the money that the industry makes. So, this is where I kind of wave my little bit of my flag of the anti capitalism pro procreativeness of, the video game industry. But, I don't think you have to lose both. I just feel like we do need to take some time in training and, again, little little fiscal responsibility, a little a little, like, best practices in in succession planning and management training and basic skills and so forth.
Christopher:Right? I think you hear all the time about these these folks that are just, like, I had a horrible manager. This is the worst manager ever. And there's a lot of those horrible stories in the in the the video game industry. I mean, every industry.
Christopher:But again, it's it's it's a lack of accountability. It's a it's again, putting the wrong the wrong things as priorities. Right? So bottom lines and, you know, a lot of times people won't get rid of horrible people because, oh, that's the person who's responsible for the thing that makes us the most money. And you're just like, what a horrible choice system there.
Christopher:And I think also we we we missed we we missed the all the other potential that's there. There's tons of people that can contribute and do just as good, in the industry. So bring it back to your question. If I was to say, like, what should like, you do for the video game specifically, video game industry specifically, I think do take a look at the principles that are used in other businesses and start implementing them sooner. They're not as hard to do.
Christopher:And don't wait until your company is, like, super big or whatever because I feel like by that time, you're already with the wrong type of business people in your upper echelon. And, the good the good folks who are actually making the creative pieces or whatever have already been kind of alienated or pushed out or, you know, blocked out from this decision.
Kevin:Yeah. Yeah. I guess to to that point, if if you're looking at some principles that work in businesses, maybe if you're looking at the principles, then there are loads of companies that have done it in a proper way that are creative and still are creative first individuals and still making a lot of money. One of my favorite ones for this would be Patagonia, which I love, as as a business case in in terms of how they're building their whole structure because they're still very centric to who they are. And they have this one rule that I love that I actually have been thinking about, and it's, let my people go surfing.
Christopher:Mhmm. So
Kevin:they have this unspoken rule, right, where there's, like, let my people go do x, let my people go game. But there's there's a way where you can still be, very productive and creative. I agree with that. And, and not lose the soul, to the devil of capitalism, if you wanna put it that way. Yeah.
Kevin:What, what what would you say are activities on both camps? So what are activities from the typical business, school of thought that are taking too much time out of creating games? And where are, the people creating the games, no matter what role you have, spend too much time? And what's usually a fallacy that's taking too much time that's not giving the the results that the entity of the game itself kind of wants to happen? Yeah.
Kevin:The, so on the
Christopher:on the business side, I would see the fallacy that I see all the time is they think, like, we we don't we don't make widgets in the video game industry. Right? And so kind of going back to where we were talking about the, let my team go surfing or whatever is, we we do we we do we do deliver on different things, not necessarily product per se. Right? But we have objectives.
Christopher:We have end results that we're looking for. How you achieve those end results and long as they're done in whatever time frame they're done, I don't care how you do it. You know, as long as, like, if it's within the timeline that we've allotted ourselves. Right. And I think, from a business standpoint, I always see like, oh, I need to have people in an office.
Christopher:I need to see what they're doing. I need to see whatever. And I was like, that's not how creative people work. Right? And and also, like, there's there's a lot of things that can interrupt them.
Christopher:Right? Like, messes up people's flow, messes up things that, like you know, flow is very important. I know you you think about that and talk about that so we could discuss that a little bit more in a bit. But For sure. I mean, it's a thing.
Christopher:Right? Like and so, you know, going back to your let, you know, let my give give my team, you know, time to serve is I always say like, hey, you have this thing. I need it by Friday. I don't care. As long as you get to me by Friday, I don't care what else you do.
Christopher:Right? I mean, I'd love you to take on more work if you really get done with it earlier, but, like, we're on schedule. As long as we're on schedule and everything's going the way we need to, you get the work done. If you have if if that means you're watching, a YouTube video to take a break or do whatever you fine. Whatever.
Christopher:Like, I it's not my clear objective is you said, you're gonna do this by x time you've committed to it right. I've asked you what you need to achieve that I provided that to you. You achieve it. Who cares about the rest? Right?
Christopher:I mean, why does it mean that matter? So I definitely agree because everyone operates differently. Like, I like to work on multiple projects at once. Some people don't. Some people only wanna work on one thing.
Christopher:Right? Like, I like to take some time, step away, work on something else, get my mind going, give myself some free time to walk and do whatever I need to. Sometimes my best work comes in the middle of the night. Right? And I'll start doing that.
Christopher:Right? Why does it need to be, you know, again, I'm not making widgets. I'm not in a factory. It doesn't matter. I'm not doing a thing.
Christopher:Like, those times are those those are antiquated. The problem is is there's a lot of folks who, one, did it a certain way back in their day, and they're determined to force people to keep doing it that way because Mhmm. Either, a, they don't know any better, or 2, they feel like, well, I had to do that, so you have to do that too. It's a lot of the folks that, like, have been in this industry, and they feel like crunch is a necessity. Like, we have to have crunch.
Christopher:It's like, why? Crunch Crunch to me is poor planning. Crunch to me is someone who doesn't know how to plan, doesn't know what the resources are, doesn't know how to do aggressive, estimations, which is a little bit which is kind of I like aggressive estimations. It's like my favorite technique. But gets gets people to actually, like, if you actually are planning, you shouldn't have to crunch is a punishment, and it's a punishment for your team for your bad planning.
Christopher:Like, you're a bad sorry, folks. Crunch. You're a bad manager and a bad whatever. Like, there are a number of things that you can see if you're paying attention to scheduling. The things are slipping and sliding, and you're waiting till a certain moment to course correct that.
Christopher:Right? And, you know or you're forcing it because you're like, I had to crunch. Everyone should crunch. Crunch is great. Crunch is the best thing ever.
Christopher:You get so much there's been I don't think there's a single study that says crunch has actually produced a better game because everybody crunched. I think it's pretty much, like, not that case. Now on the flip side
Kevin:said, no.
Christopher:On the flip side on it, I think something that that that, the game industry does badly is they do fill in their time. Right? So I feel like if somebody says that they have 2 weeks, that's gonna take 2 weeks at least. Right? Even though it could take them 5.
Christopher:Right? So I feel that there's a little bit of that side of things too, like the procrastination, the waiting, or whatever, like, legitimate legitimate planning and knowing this is why this is why I use what I call aggressive, estimation. Right. Like, I always challenge and I always ask my teams. I'm like, could we do this faster?
Christopher:What could we do to get there? Like, oh, you say 5. Could we do it in 4? Right? Now, I still, you know, plan for possibly taking longer, but I always try to get people to go a little bit faster.
Christopher:But I will say that if I challenge and someone says, no, there's no way we can do it faster than I accept it. Right? But I always want people to try. I always feel like there are gains that people get over time. But there's this natural, like, want to not accept that and be like, oh, no.
Christopher:It's always gonna take longer. Oh, no. We're never gonna catch up. Oh, no. We're never gonna get ahead.
Christopher:You're like, it's just a mindset thing. Right? And it's just trying to get people out of that mindset. But it's also because they also think a lot of times, and companies have walked into it, no matter what, they're gonna do crunch. So why should they work faster or harder or whatever, right?
Christopher:Because you've created this environment, that that's that's just what's gonna happen. So, of course, people are, you know, predisposed to be like, well, why should I do more if I'm still gonna be here this weekend putting in hours to do the the all this other stuff? But again, you know, for it so there's both sides of that, and I see it. It's just, you know, what you need to do is, again, as a leader, show both sides of it. It doesn't need to be that way.
Christopher:You know, show upper management that you don't need cogs and you can still like, people making cogs and working like a factory and having set break times or whatever. And then on the flip side, you need to prove to the team that they can be more efficient and faster, but they won't end up having to do crunch. So it is rewarding for them to do that. Right? But none of this happens overnight.
Christopher:It's it's trust. Right? You gotta earn that trust, and you gotta make you gotta, you know, the proof is in the pudding. So, you know, you do you do the work. You know?
Kevin:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. Crunch for crunch sake.
Kevin:I mean, it's it's it's almost like a badge of honor. Right? People like to do hard things. It's it's that's also a problem with that. Right?
Christopher:Oh, it's a huge problem. Yeah.
Kevin:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The most the most meaningful things are usually where you go through to suck and then survive the other end and live to tell the story. Right?
Kevin:That's kind of it's a human fallacy.
Christopher:That's what we tell it's a fallacy for sure. It's what we tell ourselves. Right? And don't get me wrong. Like, nothing I mean, it it's very true.
Christopher:Right? Nothing easy, or nothing worth have doing is easy, but I think it's a fallacy too. I think there's plenty of easy things that I've really enjoyed. Right? You know, like, I I remember I remember talking this is tangential to it.
Christopher:I remember talking to someone and I was living in Quebec, Canada and it's super cold there. And they were like and I was talking about how much I love living in LA even though I didn't like the people there. I love the weather. It was always 7 degrees. And he's like, when you get tired that, come on.
Christopher:70 degrees all the time. I was like, no. No. You you don't. You don't get tired of beautiful wet.
Christopher:Like, I'm sorry. There are some things in life. If things were always easy and how to struggle or whatever, I'd still feel pretty good about it. Like, I wouldn't cry. Right?
Christopher:Like, but there's this thing that, like, oh, we need the struggle. We need the, you know Yeah.
Kevin:We need
Christopher:to overcome or whatever. I hate to say it. A lot of reach people, they didn't overcome anything. They got handed the stuff that they got. They seem pretty happy.
Christopher:I'm just gonna go with that on the on the record there, let's say. You know? I
Kevin:guess I I I like to take a nuance, aspect to it. It's it's I see a lot of people having this. I need I need the badge of honor. I need to have survived this. And it's the same in law, and it's the same in games, and it's the same a lot of different places where I I am.
Kevin:And and I see value to hard things, but then you need to you need to be very clear on why you're going through those hard things. Right? The training for a marathon and run it, that's that's pretty awesome completion. Right? It's something that it gives you something mentally.
Christopher:Mhmm.
Kevin:But then you're doing it not just because you wanna do hard things, but you're doing it because you wanna grow. And so I can see that there might be a place and time for a specific team that wants to do crunch, but then it needs to be a mutual agreement to go hyperbolic. But the studies the studies just show that it's if you wanna do that, you need to plan meticulously. You you gotta go pull Christopher on it.
Christopher:Yeah. It's still it's still planning. Right? Like, it's still, like and that's what I'm saying. Like, so sustained crunch is what I don't like.
Christopher:Right? I think there's a point. If you're looking at your schedule and you see things are slipping or whatever, you go to your team and you say, hey, guys and gals. We're slipping. If this continues like this, it's gonna be we're gonna have to do this hard for a really long time.
Christopher:However, if we go this weekend and we do this, you know, we we we catch up here and do this thing, then that fixes everything, and we should be on course again unless we slip or whatever. Right? Now it's there there are ways to catch it and catch it earlier. Right?
Kevin:Like
Christopher:so then the question is, would you would you prefer to do 2 days of crunch this weekend? And then maybe another 6 months or whatever down the line, we might have to do again. Or do you wanna put it off and then have to do crunching for 2 months? Right? And because that's where it snowballs usually.
Christopher:Right? So thing you can catch is but, again, it's having the conversation. It's being honest with people and and giving the opportunity. I've actually lucked out, and I've had a lot of teams that course corrected themselves. Right?
Christopher:Like, because it's not usually the entire team that's slipping. It's usually like something happened, whatever. And I've had folks that are like, you know what? If I come in this weekend, I can catch up on this and I'll do that and they put in the time and it's like, cool. And then, you know, I keep track of it.
Christopher:And then usually, I'm like, hey. Later on the time, you've caught up. We're ahead or whatever. You need to take an extra day. Why don't you do it?
Christopher:You put the time in before. Right?
Kevin:Yeah.
Christopher:That's where it's really fair, I think. Mhmm. But that's not, again, how some of these managers and leaders look at things because, again, they're looking at numbers and and yes. Building the permits. Yeah.
Christopher:They're they're just they've they've they've stopped looking at it from a human beings working collaboratively on a creative project or whatever and putting out something, like, magical to to just being, like, again, a cog. Right? Oh, we're making dogs. Yeah. So
Kevin:I, I hear something really value in there that that I want to highlight for people that are listening. Because, you know, usually, what happens is that crunch gets gets put upon you. Right? It's like this force that, you gotta do this. And there's a lot of things happening down the line that are not being addressed.
Kevin:You know? Are people getting overwhelmed, and they're not doing the work, or they're getting too bored with the project, or they're not working towards their own improvement of mastery? Is this why we're behind? Did they have some unforeseen challenges? But that was not what I wanted to highlight.
Kevin:What I wanted to highlight is the the the and it goes back to service leadership that you mentioned in the beginning. Right? You're allowing them to take ownership. You're presenting. Well, here is the objective that we all knew were was gonna happen.
Kevin:Something has happened that doesn't allow us to accomplish this. So now you're cocreating, and this is the creative part as a leader. Right? You're cocreating the right solution for them in order for them to still make do. Yeah.
Kevin:And there's a lot of potential for flow there where where they're finding more agency and ownership and autonomy back in the process again, where they're like, well, I would like to do it this weekend, or I would look to do it later, or I would like to add an hour every day instead. Right? So there's
Christopher:more Right.
Kevin:There's there's there's here, there's a principle that can be applied, and I guess the leadership principle is to listen but hold, your position in a way with the objective and then allowing them to create the solution that they're comfortable in doing. And this way, they also have skin in the game. If you're just putting them in some crunch and giving them this huge deadline, then they're just rambling on. They're they're filling the time, and then they they, you know, get pressed into it. And a creative environment like this has a lot of neurodiverse individuals that are maybe operating in a different way.
Kevin:Right? But if you're giving them control, all humans thrive if they're feeling like they have control over their own destiny and their own future. And so if you're giving them that, it's it's valuable. Right? So that that I wanted to highlight.
Kevin:Yeah. Because you're still you're just still doing the same thing. You can still crunch, you can still add hours, you can still add whatever, But you just need to draw the people in to have them decide because then they have skin in the game. They'll actually be more likely to do it rather than, if someone was anxious and overwhelmed or bored in the the first place, and you're just giving them even more or even more boring tasks, then it's it's just gonna it's just gonna dissolve. Right?
Kevin:It's just gonna crash and and burn, and then you end up with a a really terrible game. Like we said and and and we saw in the first, the first version of Cyberpunk. Right?
Christopher:Yeah. Well, there was there was a number of things that they should There's
Kevin:just more. There's yeah. Yeah. Sure. Doesn't there's there's more to get there, but it's just one of the things.
Christopher:I just wanna go on the record and say, I actually enjoyed that game, and I even played it on a console that wasn't optimized for it. And I didn't have nearly as many problems as everyone seemed to have. And I enjoyed it. Now I've replayed it since they've they've upgraded and fixed it and it's it's amazing and even more amazing game. But I still really liked it.
Christopher:But no, I do. But I do I do see all the challenges that were there and and and problems. I will say this, though, even when you give you do still need to trust but verify. Right? So even when you give teams that ability to to whatever, you do have to set proper, like, check-in points to say, like, are you on track?
Christopher:Are we still doing this? Right? And if they are great, and if not, you can have that conversation, say, what can we do to improve or whatever? But I flip it back also back again to the leader to say like, hey, this sounds like a great plan. What do you need from me to succeed?
Christopher:Right? Yeah. Because you never wanna set your team up for failure. But I also wanna say that once you've given them all the ability that they've asked for and they still don't deliver, that's a different conversation. Right?
Christopher:Like, I always wanna push back because I think people misconstrue servant leadership as as simply, like, being bossed around and you're, like, you're the but it's not the case. It's like you're actually more in control than anything else. But at the end of the day, if your team isn't delivering on what you need or whatever, then you have to have some harder conversations and stuff like that. Or step in and take a look, like, take on a little bit different, techniques. But I do agree with you that you chances are you won't need to do that because you've given them, you know, all these different tools and and ways to succeed.
Christopher:Right? But the idea here again is that there will always be, again, depending on on the situation, there'll always be individuals who may abuse that or whatever, and that's a different situation. So yeah.
Kevin:I guess, you know, if if you've crow created and given ownership back, it's a lot easier to have the harder, more more intense conversations because you can hold them up. Right? If if you force something to the employee
Christopher:They could always push back. Yeah.
Kevin:Exactly. This wasn't really this wasn't really something that we can do. And now you could even mutually deliver it. Hey. Listen.
Kevin:You said this was gonna work this way. It it seems it's not gonna work out. So what what what is happening here? What what can we do? Right?
Kevin:And then then it's a lot easier to have that conversation because you had an agreement, and you can help them keep their word and their agreement in this way. So it's it's just a different scenario. You're not you're not the slaver with the whip. You're, the person that's pushing the cart behind them.
Christopher:And then I just wanna go back to just one thing, the, the need to do things because it's harder or whatever, earn your place. Right? I think there's a lot of folks that have that kind of attitude. I remember when I first started working special x makeup, the first job I had in in a effect special effects shop wasn't molding or sculpting or anything cool. It was sweeping the floor, cleaning all the spaces, doing all the the stuff.
Christopher:Right? And it was because it was expected. When you first start in the shop, you're gonna do all the the credit work. And that's fine. You know, you kinda earn your your your place.
Christopher:But I remember also, like, working at a a video game studio. And the we had a we had a really good artist we were gonna bring in, and we had, we, you know, I've worked with them before. Other people had worked with them before. But some of the teams still wanted them to do an art test. And I was like, why?
Christopher:We know that they're good, whatever. They're like, I had to do an art test. And you're, like No. Yeah. And we didn't get that person because they were, like I mean, I get it too.
Christopher:Right? You you you put, like it's just like, what? But it was such a weird mentality. Right? Oh, I had to do it.
Christopher:Like, I had to go through this. So they have to go through it too. And I'm like, wow. That's very limiting. And you're gonna you're gonna end up limiting yourself, you know, if you take that kind of attitude towards towards things or whatever.
Christopher:Right? You know?
Kevin:It, to me, it also feels like there's, an energetic disrespect both to yourself and the person that you're oppressing that to. Because Mhmm. What they're they're they're in this mentality of, this was how I needed to go through the tough situation, so you need to do it as well rather than thinking, well, we have the goal of this amazing game that's gonna change the players' lives and our lives and and allow us to have creative potential. But now you're focusing on wasting your energy, the company's energy, and and the person's energy that's coming in to do these things that are not valuable for anyone just because you think they need to go through the mud.
Christopher:I mean, I could see it if you couldn't tell from their portfolio or you didn't get references and so forth. Right? Obviously, yeah, that makes sense. Right? But it was one of the situation where I'm like, what a weird stipulation simply because because right?
Christopher:Not because it was actually, you know, contributed to anything that would make that decision any easier or better or whatever. So yeah, it happens. But I just pointed out because I do see a lot people sometimes spend a lot of energy on the wrong thing sometimes, right? We were talking about like, you know, and I think that's just one of the one of those things where it's just like, wow, you're you're not looking at the big picture there. You're very, you know, focused on the the me.
Christopher:And what, you know, what was my experience and so forth. Right. And, you know, I I quote the, my favorite album from the nineties was by a band called Fishbone, and it was called, if you give a monkey a brain, he'll swear he's the center of the universe. And, you know, we're all we're all just monkeys with brains. We all think we're the center of the universe.
Christopher:So it's always about our experience and our thing and our whatever. You know? And I think that's also where I like servant leadership because it steps away from the the me, and it's focused on, you know, the other folks and making them see.
Kevin:I mean, you we just talked a little bit about flow before. And you mentioned it that I talk about a lot of things. And and one of the the most major conditions for flow to happen as a state, both in an organization and individual, is the merging with activity and the, the loss of self. So if you're self aware so if you're in that center of yourself, then you're not gonna be in flow. You're just gonna be grunt doing grunt work.
Kevin:You're gonna struggle. So that's just a little nugget, that I think Yeah.
Christopher:No. I I do I do agree. Yeah.
Kevin:And another thing here is that paying attention, right? Paying attention and then observing and getting a right idea of the situation is what we've talked throughout this whole conversation. And, I guess it it ties into the principle of mindfulness, and and I feel that a lot of people are thinking of mindfulness of this thing that they need to do to not be stressed. Yeah. A little bit more than that.
Kevin:It's it's it's a little bit more than that. But I I think, you know, if you're if you're tying if you're tying it to other things that are actually valuable in the day to day, then maybe there there's a little bit less pushback towards something like that. So maybe you could maybe you could talk on that, in terms of what you see are other qualities that you can have, and what are easy ways for people to do mindfulness without needing to go on a mountain and sit cross legged and, do
Christopher:Well, even that also so Yeah.
Kevin:To yeah. Because of valuable, I know.
Christopher:But The no. But the I you know, I right when you said it's it's be the observer. Right? That's always that's like, when you're talking about how be the observer. Right?
Christopher:Take yourself out for a moment and be the observer in the situation. Right? Like, so, you know, that's where taking that pause, taking that moment of breath, taking that whatever. If you're in a stressful situation, if you're in a moment of conflict or whatever, pause, stop it. I I tell people all the time, if you're having a discussion with someone and it starts to get emotional or energetic in a negative way, stop the conversation immediately, like, in a polite way and just say, hey, let's come back to this.
Christopher:Give everybody space to get in a non emotional moment because, you know, the but the idea really of being the observer is just like, you know, take yourself out of the moment, out of you. Right? Do not be the monkey. Right? And and observe and try and have that objectivity of the situation and try and see all the different possibilities that are going on there.
Christopher:This, I would not say is super easy to do, obviously. Right? Like, it's that whole, like, that openness piece. But I think ultimately, if you do have the right practices in place, the breath, the taking time, like and again, I had a conversation with, someone recently. A lot of thing I think a lot of athletes don't realize that they actually do a lot of meditation and flow and stuff just through the act of their the physicality of things.
Christopher:Right? That, like, when they go for a run or when they're lifting weights or when they're swimming or whatever, they they step into actually a state of meditation. Right? There's still there's breath work there, right? They might not be doing it per se in the same proper proper, air air quotes proper for people listening, not watching and, is that you know they're but they are still heading the same kind of states that you get to.
Christopher:Same thing with, like, artists. Right? Sculpting, I used to find being a very meditative state for me. I could do sculpting because it's like physical, but at the same time, I'm kind of focused. But also in my mind, I'm having like a letting go and I'm letting thoughts come, you know, the all these kinds of things attribute to that and your ability to kind of like, again, observe, right, and add into that.
Christopher:But if I was gonna say the best the best practice of mal mindfulness and the best thing you can step away get from it is that be the observer because I think it allows you to take a moment to reflect in reflection. Right? So which is the same, except being the observer can kinda happen in the moment. I think reflection is an afterthought, but it's still useful practice, right, of looking back and going, how could I have done that differently? Right?
Christopher:How could I approach that different? It's a lot of what ifs because again, you'll never be able to fully see, like, what the outcomes are. But I relate it to something that I I teach a lot of my, I won't say students, but my mentees is is practice. Right? And it's not just the practice of my but I mean, like, when you're presenting, when you're doing anything, when you're doing your pitch pitches and so forth.
Christopher:You need to practice that a ton. You need to practice it to the point where you can do it in your sleep. You do the you and you're not just practicing. You're also practicing, like, what questions you might get and things. And I and I say that the best and I say, they need to be, like, improv actors.
Christopher:And they're like, well, wait. I just improv? And I'm like, no. No. No.
Christopher:The best improv actors in the world don't improvise. They practice. They practice a 1000000 times, different scenarios and different acts, and they have a little tool belt, right, that lets them, you know, pull out at a single moment. Like like, they maybe they have a mil like, 20 jokes about ducks, and they get a joke they get geese. Well, they could just adapt that.
Christopher:Right? And so it's the same thing with mindfulness and reflection is
Kevin:Mhmm.
Christopher:Is practicing reflection and practicing how can I be better? And how do the next time I'm in this situation, how do I react differently? And how do I maybe or better yet, don't react? Right? How do I, you know, let it come naturally and respond as opposed to reaction?
Christopher:Right? And these are, like, again, response versus reaction. These are all things that with proper mindfulness and proper training and just practice though. Again, different practice, but practice, you know, gets you there. My wife hates meditation, but she still does it because I I always she always sees how all the benefits I get of it.
Christopher:And she had, you know, and over the years, she's she's practiced not as regularly as I do. But she does, she gets she gets it Right? But it's, again, it's not one of those things you just sit and do, and all of a sudden you're like the Buddha. Right? Like, it's not it's not I mean, well, that's a there probably are some people who just sit down and they're the Buddha.
Christopher:And they probably are the Buddha, and that's why they could just sit down and do it. But most people need to sit down and practice and learn the breath techniques and all the different things that are there and and not be and not be judgmental. Right? That's the other part. Right?
Christopher:It's a it's a little a big part of mindfulness is not being judgmental on both sides. Right? It's part of being the observer. Because you're not judging people. You're stepping out of that judgment, that state of judgment.
Christopher:And you're seeing things from, like, an objective perspective. Right? So, you know, there's a lot that's that's all tied in into those different pieces. And I just rambled a lot about a lot of different things, so I'll pause there.
Kevin:So Yeah. That's I mean, there's so many good nuggets in there as well. Right? I'm I'm hearing you say you're you're using your attention on an activity or something that allows you to observe the activity rather than being entangled in it. Right?
Kevin:So if you're you're you can be meditating all the time. You could be meditating while designing a new game. You could be meditating while putting garbage out. You could be meditating whenever. It's it's not about what you're doing.
Kevin:It's about how you do it. Mhmm.
Christopher:One of
Kevin:the one
Christopher:of the techniques, so one of the techniques I was taught a long time ago is just being mindful when you're washing your hands. Washing your hands is an act that we don't really take the time to actually think about. We just do. Right? We go to the sink with soap and we, whatever, but, you know, a good practice is just when you go to wash your hands, just be mindful of the moment of that the other one is brushing your teeth with the opposite hand that you normally do.
Christopher:Right? The kind of just as a as a trick to try and just, you know, be more mindful of how you do it because when you brush your teeth with your regular hand, you just do it. It's autopilot. Yeah. It's autopilot.
Christopher:Right? It's the whole, like, when you go for a walk, being mindful and noticing the flowers, the the cracks in the the sidewalk as opposed to, like, how many times do we walk the same path every day and just go into, like, boop mode. Right? So there's, like, a mixed mixed bag of attentiveness, but then also realizing that, like, you don't wanna be zoned out either. Zoned out is not always a good thing either.
Christopher:Right? So it's that mix of zone but attentive. You know?
Kevin:Don't turn your life into an AFK game.
Christopher:Yeah. Exactly. 100%.
Kevin:Yeah. Well, Christopher, I wanna be respectful of your time and, the listeners' time as well. Why don't you use the the next couple of minutes to talk about whatever you feel like, where people can find you, what whatever else you wanna say to the audience? Sure.
Christopher:So if you if you like mindfulness, leadership, and awesomeness, then you should definitely, check out pressstartleadership.com. There you'll find my blog where I put weekly articles, about those those three things. You'll also see links to, my podcast where I also talk about those things. And, my YouTube channel, which basically just repurposes it. So if you prefer to watch, listen on YouTube, you can listen to it on there.
Christopher:If you prefer to listen on your favorite podcast, you can as well. And then, if you're really into super cool up and coming narrative adventure games, you should check out planwordstudios.com. You'll see our, our upcoming game called Shadow City Mysteries Clockwork Noir, which is on Steam. You can wish list, which would be really awesome if you did. So, yeah, that's that's the and I'm all over LinkedIn.
Christopher:So if you connect with me on LinkedIn, just look up Christopher Mifsud. I'll be the guy with the beard, the giant beard, and, connect with me. Click the 3 dots and then click connect. Don't just follow me. Like, LinkedIn has it so I you follow me first.
Christopher:I have the 3 dots. Click to connect. I love connecting and networking with new people. So I'd love to have a chat with you. If you have any thoughts about what we've talked about today I'd love to hear about it and, talk about it more.
Kevin:Nice. Well, thank you so much for listening in. And, Christopher, thank you for being on. And, yeah, just interact if, if anything resonated or if you don't agree, I would love that as well. And, write write to us, either to Christopher or miss and we we could, you know, talk about this again.
Kevin:Alright. Thank you for this episode, and I'll catch you in the next one.
Christopher:Thanks so much, Kevin. Cheers.
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