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Welcome to the Lehigh Valley Arts Podcast, where we explore the local arts culture in the Lehigh Valley. We’ll be doing this through conversations with individual artists, administrators, and organizations. We’ll explore all types of mediums with the goal of enriching local culture.
Elise 0:04
Welcome to season four of the Lehigh Valley arts Podcast where we explore the local arts, culture and community in the Lehigh Valley.
Ben Orr 0:11
We'll be doing this through conversations with individual artists, administrators, musicians, poets, actors, and arts and cultural organizations will discuss all types of mediums with the goal of enriching local arts culture. Hey everyone, and welcome back to the Lehigh Valley arts podcast. My name is Ben. And this week, Elise will be interviewing Robin gal. Robin gow is a critically acclaimed trans poet from rural Pennsylvania. He is the author of several poetry collections, and essay collection and middle grade and why a novels fair novels include Ode to My first car, a million quiet revolutions. And dear mouth man, Fay works as a community educator calling folks into discussion around queer and disability justice. Robin,
Elise 0:56
Robin, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast.
Robin 0:59
Thank you so much for having me.
Elise 1:00
I'm so excited that you're here. And just like fangirling just a little bit, because I don't know if I mentioned this here or not, but I was gifted your dear math man book, feelings a Christmas gift this year. My friend, friends Ben and Elisabeth. And so I'm obsessed with Mothman. Like it's a personal obsession from where it stems I don't remember. But quite fixated on Mothman. And I was in Rehoboth Beach for the sea witch festival in October. And I was at that big bookstore that's down there (browseabout books). And I saw your book, and everyone was like, oh, at least look at this book. Oh, my God, check out this book. And I, I almost bought it. And then I was like, I don't know. And I ended up buying. There's like this little Mothman children's book, and my coworker just had a baby. So I was like, I'm gonna buy that. So I can like, share it with them. And then I had met you at my job. Somewhere in between that, and then I was gifted this book. And I didn't connect all the pieces till I looked you up on Instagram. But I was like, Oh, by God, there's someone else in the Lehigh Valley with him. That's amazing. It just made me so happy. So I'm so glad you're here. Your book is incredible, as I'm sure all of your other work is. I'm so glad that I get to meet you and we just get to sit down and chat.
Robin 2:21
Yeah, I'm excited. Even if we just talk about moth man, like, maybe that'd be like, we could have like a whole segment about just Mothman. Also, I was also at the witch festival!
Elise 2:29
Really? It's a small world. I have like this fabulous moth man pin that someone lent me and I was digging through my drawers today. Just like I'm gonna wear it. And I couldn't find it. I was so upset so it's okay. But I think I was thinking about to earlier is I went there's at least one of them off man fan in the area because I went out in my Mothman Halloween costume this year, and I I ran into a woman that was also dressed as Mothman. That's great. It's very exciting. So for those listening Do you can you just give us like a little like what the fuck is?
Speaker 1 3:14
So Mothman doesn't actually really look that much like a moth but kind of like a very tall, legend says that he's like nine foot/10 foot tall, very, very big winged creature typically all black with glowing red eyes. The origin story of Mothman comes from Point Pleasant West Virginia where like he was spotted, like, supposedly, like chasing some car. But subsequently, after that, there's been all sorts of other like Mothman sightings. And I feel like it's also like, there's like a renaissance of moth man right now. Like, I feel like there's like a sub community who's like obsessed with Mothman. And I think that there's the he also like means a lot to like the queer community. And like, whenever I start to, like, explain why I'm like, Okay, this is a little bit complicated. But like, like, hear me out. I just think that I think that work for queer folks like cryptids in general is like, this idea of like being real, but not totally seen. Images of like, monstrosity, because of the ways people are demonized. It's definitely at least for me, something I gravitated towards, like as a little kid, I loved horror movies, monster books, anything like scary and like, I think that that was my surrogate representation, because well, I mean, like villains are queer coded. Most monsters are something, they're usually doing some kind of like gender bending or something like that. So I think that they were like, my earliest like things that I related to. And I think that I've just continued that as an adult. There's a lot of ways in which I like don't really grow up. But that's, that's why I write books for kids.
Elise 4:49
That's fair. So I'll just ask the obvious question. How did you get into writing and decide that you were going to be an author?
Speaker 1 4:56
It's so interesting, because I have like wanted to be a writer since I was like very, very small, I actually didn't like really write or read very well, I have like a few like learning disabilities. And so I used to just like make basically like comic books to tell stories like as very, very little, but I would always tell my teachers and stuff, like, I'm gonna be a writer, I'm gonna be an author, and I had a short period of being like, I might be a film director. And then that was like, too hard. So I was like, I really enjoy the way that being a writer, you can like work on everything, like from anywhere, like in the corner of a room, like you can always be writing, it never really felt like an option for me, like, it's just kind of like my go to self. I feel like I'm a storyteller. And I have always written more formally, I went to graduate school for creative writing. And I think that that kind of made me more into the like, air quote, like, professional writer realm, but people have so many different pathways to like being a published author. And I think that people are writers, even if they don't publish stuff, long, convoluted story to say, like, that's kind of how I've just like, always been doing it. And probably always will, I just, like, enjoy it for myself. And so like, it's just kind of A plus the other people like it. And like, you know, I do try to think about like readership and stuff, I'm not just like, this is just for me, but you know, I would write weird stuff, even if nobody was reading it.
Elise 6:14
I think that's the beauty of like, making your own art is that it is a representation of you. Yeah, for sure that people like it like, cool. And I don't know, it's such a weird line. Because we talk about that a lot. Like, on this show. It's a concept that comes up a lot about like your day job, or like, your full time job or whatever. And then you're making art on the side and this balance between like, do you do it as a living? Or do you do it as something just for you? And like, everyone has totally different answers, and all are completely valid. And it's like, I feel like there's a sweet spot when you're like, Oh, I've made this and it represents me and people like it. Like, that's super cool.
Speaker 1 6:48
Yeah, and it can be a little bit hard to find that I definitely have felt that, especially like, because now I published books that are like large market books. So like moth, man, and like my YA books, and my book that's coming out in May. It's a larger readership, you have to think a little bit more about a very wide variety of opinions that I wouldn't think about, because I write poetry for adults. And so like, that is like what I want it to be I don't really care. But I feel like there's kind of like a little bit more of like, a responsibility you have if you're like writing for and in solidarity with youth, I have to think more about like, is this a message that I want to be sending for my like, personal poetry that's like for an adult audience, that is just me being weird. That's not like, I'm not as worried about like messaging. I mean, I want it to be like thoughtful, but I'm not like as intensely focused. But then there's the other level of trying to make it still marketable. I hate that we live in like a capitalist world that limits a lot of creativity, because I think that like the best books that I've always loved are ones that are like strange and doing something experimental. And oftentimes, when you're selling books, people aren't going to always go for that the weirder stuff. But those have always been like my favorite books.
Elise 7:57
So when you say like messaging in terms of young adult books, versus your kind of like poetry that's more for adult audiences? Are you referencing or thinking kind of about these adults that read your poetry or hear poetry have like, fully full, ideally, fully formed? Adult opinions and brains? And they aren't so influenced by like, individual opinions? Or like what do you what's kind of this like, idea of messaging that you think about when you're writing for young adult audiences?
Speaker 1 8:25
I think when I'm writing very, like young people, I think that the one responsibility I feel like I have is that the books like skew towards hope. And I feel like that's like the only really guiding force is that I feel like, if I'm writing towards young folks, most young people like live much a long time after they're reading this. And like, I want people to even if like things are hard, or like characters face struggles, like, I want there to be like a leaning towards Sure, positive especially because there's so much like pain in the queer community. And like, a lot of my books like balance those things, and it's totally valid, that some stories are just sad. For me, I like really want there to be that balance and for there to be like things that people can latch on to. And I think for adults, like I don't always feel like I have to give people hope. Because sometimes, sometimes as humans, we feel hopeless. And like, I think, like a adult poetry collections, like my books for youth carry, like a narrative and my adult poetry doesn't it's usually just like collections of poems that speak to each other. And so, for that, I think I permit myself to have space to explore some of the more like, darker or sadder themes without the same like, impetus towards like, like I said, like towards hope were towards something forward.
Elise 9:39
So, and you can answer answer this like, not from what society reads it as but like you personally. How do you differentiate between like, poet and author or do you view it all one thing?
Speaker 1 9:52
It's really difficult because I don't I really don't feel like what I do is totally different in the like, adult sphere and the like, children's sphere. I really don't like I feel like genres are not super helpful. I actually struggle sometimes with marketing books because they all there are their stories told in poems, and people are like, inherently scared of poems in general. They're like, Oh my God, I don't know how to read poetry. And that always makes me be like, just just read this, it'll be okay. Like, it's gonna be fine. And so I don't see your genre that much. And I, I kind of just think of it as like different tools for exploring a similar idea, because I think I explore similar themes and like, all the different ways that I write because I write, I write prose, too. And I also write nonfiction sometimes. So it's kind of just like approaching a similar question with a different like tool set is kind of like how I think about it.
Elise 10:38
As a young person, can you think back to like, maybe a first project or like a first passion like story or something that you wrote that you kind of like feel either really motivated by or attached to, like, a lot of people that come on the show will say, oh, did this mural in my third grade class? Or? Yeah, I had a horrible experience with an art teacher and that pushed me into doing this or etc, etc.
Speaker 1 11:00
There was a poetry club at my high school, which was also kind of like a makeshift GSA because like, we didn't really, we actually weren't allowed to have a GSA because they made it into like, the anti bullying club, they're like, you can't, you can't have a GSA Have you kind of anti bullying Club, which is like, there's a lot to unpack there. So we had the VO J club, and I watched and read a lot of like slam poetry, and that like really made me feel motivated to write poetry. And I grew up in Kutztown. There used to be Bieber buses that would go to New York, there's a Bowery Poetry Club, which is like actually a pretty well known poetry club, but they had an open mic. And I was like, I'm gonna go to that. And I like read poetry there. And I felt like, just really amazing about it. But I think that being able to read poetry with like, my peers, like really was like, the first time I felt like, proud of things. And I was like, wow, I have some poems I'm, like, really proud of. And other than that, I wrote like a novel when I was in like, senior year of high school. And one of my teachers like actually read parts of it, which now looking back, I'm like, bold of me to give a 300 page novel to a teacher, like, as if she has time to like, read my novel. But it was very strange. It was about like, creatures that like, make dreams and somebody getting trapped in a dream. And I don't think it was too bad. I mean, I have no idea where it exists. Now, you know, like, who knows, like, on what hard drive or like if it's a if it exists at all that story, but I feel very proud of it at the time. And I think that it was significant for me because I finished something large. I always like tell people, when they asked me like tips about writing, it doesn't matter how bad the first draft is. But like, if you don't write the first draft, you can't fix it. So like, you guys just like, get through it. And so I think like going through that process of writing something, even though I didn't edit it, like, I think that that was very, like formative for me.
Elise 12:44
A lot of people I talked to... and even myself, I hid my artwork for so many years from people because it was so it was about things I was struggling with, or things that I just needed to get out somehow else to get out. And like, that's awesome, though, that you just kind of really cared No, really, I want you to read it.
Speaker 1 13:02
I think that like interestingly enough, like something that like my, my uncle, like, was very part of our family. And like something I remember him saying to me, like, he's an artist. So he like is a painter. So then he said to me, he's like, it doesn't matter if you're good. It just matters if you keep telling people about it and keep doing it, which is like actually really true. Because there's like some and I'm not like going to name like any, like large authors. But there's some authors that just like pump out novels, and like, they keep talking about themselves, they keep doing their thing. And like it sucks to have to market yourself like it feels gross and weird. But like I think that that like him telling me that it's also very permission giving though to like, be like, you don't have to be perfect. You just have to keep doing it. I think that that's actually not like the worst advice. That's like pretty good advice.
Elise 13:48
Okay, you have this work of art that you've created, how does it get from point A to point B to point C?
Speaker 1 13:54
So for like trade publishing, like the bigger publishers, it's such a process like I started querying, so like, sending like queries to agents. And like the summer of 2019 4 million quiet revolutions, which is like my first YA novel. I had a really lucky go of finding an agent. Because some people query for eight years, some people worry for like four or five years trying to find an agent, because agents really only want to take something if they're like, passionate about it, too, because they're gonna have to do so much work on it. So like people could even be good writers. And they're just not landing with somebody who's like, I want to champion the story essentially, is.
Elise 14:34
Query, that's a term for like, the period of time that you're looking for a partner?
Robin 14:39
A query letter would be like, I have this book, here's attached the first 10 pages, would you represent me essentially? Or would you basically usually you send like the first 10 pages, and they'll write like, I want to read the whole thing. I only had two people ever asked to read the whole like first one of my novels and one person ended up my agent who's still my agent today. Um, she was like, I like this novel, but you have to like, change the setting because the million quiet revolutions is set well, like the the characters are exploring the American Revolution as like part of their plot, but it was originally set as a is like World War One. And she was like, nobody knows about World War One You can't you got to like, try a different setting, which I agree with, I'm just fine. We're one a little bit more fascinating for me personally, but, you know, readership, that she told me if I rewrote it, as you would consider it represented me. So I rewrote the whole book. And then she signed me to be like her client. And then from there, we did edits together. And then from there, we've like pitch to different publishing houses, essentially, probably to like 30 publishing houses. And mostly get knows, and then a few people ended up like putting in bids, and then they have like an auction. And so like, the different editors will compete with bids. And that's why you want multiple editors be interested, because then you can drive up like your advance price. So they bid on it, and then somebody got it. And I ended up getting like a two book deal. And so like, I worked with that editor for two books. And then I had a whole other process similar to that for deer moth, man. And I ended up with a at a different publishing house. And then once you're at that publishing house, I know this is long, but like, once you're at that publishing house, and you edit the whole book, usually, like the editor sends you like a few letters based on like, what she wants to draw out work on stuff like that. And I think some of my favorite parts of that process are like also talking about like, cover idea designs, it feels really cool to be like, What do you imagine? And then I've been lucky that they've always asked my input on like, artists who work on my book and stuff like that. Yeah, it's awesome. And then it goes into the world. But it takes forever because like, you've written a book like this, Kate, the deer moth band came out in 2023. And I wrote it in 2020, which is actually a really, really quick turnaround for a book. But mostly, usually, it probably be like four years from like writing a book. Oh, like coming out, I would say, unless you're like Stephen King, who like, bombed out a novel every year. Like, not bad. So like, I'm not knocking him. But like, I think for most people, some people get on a schedule where they're doing like a novel a year, but usually there's like a delay between like when it comes out and like when they've actually written it.
Elise 17:27
So it's just an SE, I'm wrong if I'm wrong, but it sounds like generally, it's been a pretty positive experience with like, the people that you've worked with so far.
Robin 17:35
Definitely. That's good. I've been so lucky.
Elise 17:39
Do you feel like like, the first book that you spoke about, asking for a full rewrite is like, that's like a big deal. And I think I was curious, like, if you've If you've run into situations where like, you really have to grapple with like saving something that you've I'm sure, I know the answer, but like, grappling with saving something that you wrote or like being willing to adapt a little bit to kind of meet that wider spread audience.
Speaker 1 18:06
Yeah, I think that I think that for the most part, I've been pretty, like, open the feedback that people have given. Nobody's ever said anything that I was like, No way. Like, I think in Dear Mothman, there used to be like, another kiss between Noah and Hannah. And they were like, for a middle grade audience. characters don't don't really kiss that much. And I was like, I when I was in middle school, everybody was kissing. I think that that's the one thing that's really confused me about made. mainstream publishing is like, their, their guideposts aren't like how kids actually act. It's like, it's how like, the gatekeepers. And gatekeepers is like a term that people usually use to talk about, like, librarians, teachers, it's not necessarily negative, but they're the people who usually get books to trickle down into people's hands. It's how they perceive the material. And so it is sometimes frustrates me because I'm like, kids want to learn things that represent their experiences, right? But I didn't really care because that's like, it wasn't important to the plot wasn't important to things like that. And like I feel like mostly when I like express to my editors, like oh, the reason why I'm doing this is because XY and Z they usually let me I think the most more in depth conversation I had is like in a million quiet revolutions there is like a pretty like clear and depicted sex scene. And basically the conversation is like this can't be in book fairs. Like this won't be it won't reach all these things. They never told me I can't a lot of times my like agent and editors really function on like, if you do this, this will happen if you do this, just like giving me the information I need. And for me, I felt like it was really important for there to be a clear sex scene because like, I have never seen a sex scene between two transparent, like one that was like positive and like mirrored like really, like in active and consent, like and I think that like people need representations of like health effects encounters, because teenagers, you know, have sex. And I'm not like bashing like, TV shows and stuff, but like a lot of TV shows like, you know, for the interest of it being interesting and having conflict, like how a lot of like really unhealthy relationships and like, I was like, I want this healthy relationship to have like a healthy vaccine. So people can like, be like, Wow, that was like, positive to read, like, nobody is traumatized from this experience. Like, that sounds great. And so like, I felt it was really important to include it. But I know for a fact that like, there's teachers who don't want to teach a because they're, like, uncomfortable with, which I'm like, come on. But anyway, I think that that's probably one of the larger decisions that I've had.
Elise 20:48
And so it did end up in the book?
Speaker 1 20:49
Yeah, totally. I'm usually, I think in all of my experiences, I've like mostly kept the thing that we like talked about, except unless it's like something that's like, if it doesn't impact the story, or the themes that much, I'm usually just happy to, like, let go trust other people's judgment, because like, my editor has worked on hundreds of books. Like, if she says, we don't need to say this, we don't need to say it, you know?
Elise 21:10
I like that. It makes me happy to hear because I think in my brain, just based on what I consume in media like that, there's like some big conglomerate that's anti this anti that that's like pulling out parts of a story that really need to be told. And I'm very happy, like, it feels good to hear that you've had a positive experience.
Speaker 1 21:30
I would say book publishing is probably pretty progressive with the stories and stuff. I usually tell people like the actually the biggest barrier for I think a lot of not all marginalized authors, I don't want to like make a broad generalization, but for a lot is like getting the publisher to invest a little bit more in like marketing, and sales and stuff. Because the sales that you make with your book, determine if you can get another book deal and determine if you can keep publishing. And that's really difficult because, being marginalized, people already view your story as just for trans people, or just for like, I don't know, like, one of my books is about a bisexual girl. So just for that identity, which is so strange, because, we don't think of like books about straight people as just for straight people. Like, I've enjoyed a few straight books, we don't think about them like that. And I think the same is true for if you talk about other intersections, like oftentimes, like books by people of color, like white folks will be like, well, that's not for me. And it's obviously not true, because it is a story and it has value to everyone. But I think sometimes there's a struggle with that, because also publishers want to share big picture to like, highlight the, like diverse intersections of books, but at the same time, sometimes it ends up marketing in very small silos. And I think that's one of my biggest struggles is that I think that at this point, in my writing career, I'm like, okay, with not being a Mega best selling author, but like, you know, when you have your first book come out, I think that I felt a little bit sad, because there just wasn't as much of a budget for marketing, I didn't get to travel with my book, that being my first book. I was really lucky to travel with Dear Mothman a little bit, but some of that stuff is hard. And also, sometimes the editors are bound by that market, right? Like, there's things that like, also can't happen for me, like, I can't sell my book, to a lot of places overseas, because, like, if it's a country where like, LGBT stuff is like, really bad, like, they're less likely to buy it, and even places that are about on par. And the, you know, the United States is not, right. So like, you know, I was gonna say a lot of places even like on par with the US in terms of like, LGBTQ plus treatment, like might be less likely to buy a queer book, because last market, you know, all that kind of stuff.
Elise 24:01
So that's interesting. I hadn't even like thought about that, that. I don't know, like people that people that read is already like, its own market that seems called people that there, there are assumptions about before the book even hits the shelves, there are so many assumptions about like, who will pick up this book. Yeah, based on their interest or identity when like, personally, I feel a lot of cases like, I'll pick up anything and like, whatever.
Speaker 1 24:29
That's like my methodology. This looks like it has a cool cover. Like, that's great. To know for sure. Cool. Like, I'll probably pick it up. It's also probably because I like mostly use the library. So like, you know, I didn't buy it. I'll try. Yeah, yeah.
Elise 24:47
So how is your experience been with like cover art and illustrations and like the visual side of of your books?
Speaker 1 24:56
I've been like really lucky to work with a lot of queer artists. Some like really beautiful covers, usually they send a few mock ups of ideas. And for the most part, everybody's always calling with the one that I liked. So that made me feel great. And it's cool, because I also like keep up with the folks who've done art in my books, like I follow them on Instagram. And sometimes we'll message about where the books have gone. And it's cool because a lot of them are smaller artists, creators who do all kinds of different projects. My first cover, it was a really just cool process, because the person who did it also is a poet too. And so like, I really have loved their poetry and like reading that after they did my cover. Like I said, I feel really lucky people always compliment the covers. I'm like, had nothing to do with me. But it is really fabulous. It is an important tool. Totally. I mean, it's the first thing people see. Yeah, yeah, it conveys a tone. It's so important. You almost have even a little bit more excited sometimes in the like, adult poetry book covers, because usually that's like, some like your idea because poetry presses are generally smaller. And so for a lot of those I've like been like, I like this artists, can we like ask them for this piece? And they'll be like, sure.
Elise 26:10
I was most curious about that. Because poetry in general is so abstract, like how do you find how do you communicate to people? Oh, I want this to be the cover of my poetry book. Maybe there's 30 different poems about 30 different topics?
Speaker 1 26:24
Yeah, you I think most poets will like pick on artists that they feel like represents the vibe of the book. I guess some people might do like a self portrait or something like that. But I think that generally, like, most are like something of an artist that they like, and I like keep little on my like Instagram, I have like, a little save folder. I like these artists. If ever one day I have a better budget, like I'm gonna ask us this for my book cover.
Elise 26:50
So speaking of your poetry work, I'm a visual artist. And like, I've never spent that much time writing poetry. And even just over the last couple months, like I've started to get really fascinated and interested in it. And one of the things that really interests me about poetry and poets is like this crossover between, it can be something that's very private, or it can be something that's like, really performance based.
Robin 27:13
Totally.
Elise 27:14
Do you feel like your poetry and your involvement in a poetry community like falls in that?
Speaker 1 27:20
It's so interesting, because I used to, like read a lot. Like, I think that like, my biggest, like learning has really come from like, so there is this club at my undergrad that was called lit sock, which stands for literary society. And we would meet every week, and people would just bring stuff to read, people stabbed for things. And like, then there is always like, a feedback portion. And I think I just learned so much from like, testing out things by reading them to a roomful of people. I didn't like appreciate at the time, like what a valuable resource that is. Because like, who has a group of people who meets every week to read their work like that's, that's why I mean, it can only really happen on like a college campus because of the closeness of it. But anyway, recently, it's been like a little bit more intimate, like private, because I just haven't read aloud that much. I'm getting back out into it. Lehigh Valley has a really beautiful poetry scene. There's so many cool stuff. There's like poetry as promised, the noble quills, who reads out of the Barnes and Noble basement poetry, these really beautiful, awesome flourishing poetry spaces, and I'm trying to get back into it. I did a reading I was like one of the featured readers for poetry as promised that nowhere coffee and was really fun. And so I'm getting back into reading again, I think for the last few years, I've mostly read aloud from my like, children's work, but I'm trying to get back into the like, sharing aloud sphere. I don't think that there's really that much different. Like, I'm like, a very open book, like, my poetry can be very like confessional or intimate and it doesn't really, like bother me, I think like going through the process of like, coming out as trans and a time whereas a little bit less well known, like, I'm desensitized to, like, any like, and also like, I've been submitting poetry places for like, I guess since like, probably 2015. And so like, rejection does not bother me. Like, I don't care if people don't resonate with it. Like, I like it. As long as I'm not like doing something harmful like I would care if somebody said like, the thing you said is offensive. Like I care about that. Other than that, like I'm not really like I listened to feedback and I'm happy to like share things.
Elise 29:33
That's something I I personally miss a lot to like from that college campus experience is talking to other people about your artwork and like constructive criticism and review and like it doesn't hurt to find that.
Speaker 1 29:48
Yeah, it's because it's like we got thrown into like these like, trying to survive capitalism kind of lives. And I do definitely miss that a lot. I like I think that having a spate, like I said like I don't think I thoroughly appreciated like, having an artistic community to like. And I like I said, though, I think that people are building that here. It does exist outside of colleges, but it was really great when I have that.
Elise 30:12
Are there like, poets that you really enjoy, or like people that young people who was working really, really enjoy reading?
Speaker 1 30:19
It's so hard when someone asks that, because like, I have like a million poets, I think that my, some of my like, go to poets, I love CA Conrad, they grew up like kind of locally, and they are like, one of the strangest humans I've ever met. They do a lot of things called like somatic poetry rituals, where they do like, a very in depth ritual, and then like, write a poem afterwards. I went to like a workshop that they ran, and at like the LGBT Center in New York City, and it was like the weirdest poetry workshop I've ever had. And like, they talked a lot about how at one point in their life, they felt like they were just like pumping out work. And they felt like a factory. And they were like, I have to destroy the factory and myself. And they started doing these like rituals. And they're fascinating and strange. Like, one example is like they like, wanted to, like eat a storm as they went out into a giant storm and like, had bread and like, Let the storm like rain all over the bread, and then we're eating it. And like, that's like, the least strange. Sure, sure. I really recommend their work, huh? They're really awesome. They're a kind human too, that's always good. Yeah, definitely. I think as far as like other poets that have impacted me, my thesis advisor for grad school, her name is Jacqueline Jones LaMon. And her book last scene is like persona poetry of like, missing children. And it is it is like haunting and fascinating. And I have always really connected with her work. And then the last one I'll name is Ai. And this is all in like the adult poetry sphere. I can't even get into the why. Because I'll keep going forever. But I really love the work of Jos Charles. Just she's a trans poet, and her book field is like, medieval language in like a modern context, all about, like, embodiment, and gender and stuff like that. And it's very, very strange. And it's like very much like language, poetry, and that, like, you could read a word and it kind of has double meanings. And I like read that book, like, over and over. I think it's just like, so fascinating. Yeah, that's awesome.
Elise 32:33
Ben was editing an episode that we recorded a couple of months ago with Larry Mason, who's a local actor, and like, really, really outspoken disability advocate and like, writes a lot of his work centered around disability advocacy, and like, people experience and him and I work together a lot just on like reviewing his work, or like reviewing each other's work, which I really appreciate, because that's something that's hard, fine. Totally. And one of the things that came up in his interview, and I don't even know if it'll make it in the actual recording of it is, like seeing your own work as advocacy. And like, where's the line with that? Because I think in marginalized communities, there's such an expectation from people outside of those communities that like, you have to explain yourself, or you have to explain, or that like, your work should serve as an advocacy tool for people in that community. And that's one a very heavy weight to bear for sure. But to like, when it comes to that line between like, things in your work that are points of advocacy, or points of representation, or things that are really intentional, like, how do you see that kind of intertwined with the poetry and the young adult novels and all of that stuff?
Speaker 1 33:50
That's a really great question. And I think it's something that I've definitely struggled with. And I'm like, I think in my earlier books, I was more apt to want to explain. And like recently, I've been like, I don't really want to, like talk about I want, if you're in on it, you're in on it, if you're not, you're not, and maybe like, and I also don't think that people like, I think especially like, maybe not especially but it's really common for like queer identities for people to be like, explain that to me, or like, I just don't understand, or stuff like that. And sometimes my response more recently has been kind of been like, it's okay to not understand everybody's experience, like you should still like, trust that it's real. Like why why is this experience like, and I think that that's true for other marginalized communities to people like feeling like they deserve access to like understanding, like trauma, or, I mean, in most interviews for places, the first thing that somebody asked me is like, when I knew I was trans, which is like incredibly strange to me, because like, it will be for like a public organization who talks about writers like it's not for like OUT magazine. If it was So queer publication like, sure, like we're talking about being gay, that's fine. But like it's for not queer related things. And like, I'm also happy to have that conversation. It's just like, that's not what my book is about. It's definitely really hard. And I think recently, like I said, I'm trying to move away from like doing the explaining. But it's hard, because then we go back to that conversation around, like, how people pick up and read that book. Because educators do like books to be tools in some ways, especially in we're talking about youth books. So like, if they can't serve that purpose, it also limits your readership. And at the same time, like you don't want to spend your whole time like, explaining these experiences. And I really tried to be adamant against that. Like, one of the the notes that I didn't take from an editor, about Dear Mothman fan is that they were kind of prompting me to have like, the ending be kind of like a coming out scene. And I was like, I think that it is, but I don't think it should be explicitly. They kind of wanted, we're kind of pushing towards being like, having no be like, and I'm like a boy and stuff like that. And I was like, that's not how Noah would talk about himself. And I also think that's also really important to me is preserving, the integrity of real conversations and stuff, because kids also know when you're preaching to them. And I think that that's something that, kidlit, in general, like needs to have a bigger conversation about is, so many writers are adults who are like, it's my job to educate kids, and I don't view my role as that. I view my role as writing in solidarity with youth, because they know, things that I don't know, I know things that they don't know, like, we're both humans. Sure, I've lived maybe a little bit longer, but like, I don't think it's my job to educate them on... said issue, I think it's my job to, represent scenarios that are helpful or can represent people's experiences. But that's a topic that I could talk about forever. Because it's, it's really difficult as a marginalized author, I like to write messier characters. And there's always this pressure of... if I write like a trans character who's mean, people put pressure on you to be like, "that's problematic" or they're like, it's not a great representation. And the problem is that like marginalized people, we're people, and so we do crappy things to each other. We are selfish sometimes. It's hard to have those deeper, more nuanced conversations, when, there's all this pressure on the representation you provide. And I think, especially for queer folks, also, to have your identity be really consumable. That's always been hard for me. And I've again, I've moved away from it myself, even in my personal life and saying, I don't have a perfect air quote, like trans narrative, I don't think I always knew I was trans. I think that gender is credibly fluid. It's different across culture and across time. I don't think that it matters that much. But it does, because it impacts every way we move in our lives. But anyway, so as to say it's, it's such a wait, and I don't have a good answer. So that's, that's my thoughts.
Elise 38:16
There wasn't I again, like that often comes up on the show, where I'm just like, I'm just gonna say something and I want you to react to it. Because I think that is the end point of it is that like there isn't an end point to it.
Robin 38:30
There isn't an end point to it, it's gonna be my whole career. Exactly.
Elise 38:32
Like art. I think personally, like art in all forms is advocacy. But like, when you get to that point where you're having to explain yourself defend, like, your identity in the art that you're making is like, it's such a weird experience in line. And I had this whole idea and I wasn't sure how to, like explore it, about like writer stereotypes and like things that people think writers do, or like picture writers or authors to be. And I was curious, like, I wanted to ask you about your writing space, and like, your writing setup and your process and kind of what that looks like for you. Because I think it's like a tick tock or something the other day, it was like, I'm an author, of course, I do this, this, this or this. And I was like, I wonder if that's true for all people that are authors, like if everyone like this person was saying, they like hermit in their basement, write this or do this or that. And you had said earlier about? Like, I like that I can work from anywhere do this. And yeah, so yeah, just kind of curious about like your writing process. And what that looks like for you.
Robin 39:35
I've written a poem every day since like, 2017. So like, I have a very, like, every morning I get up, I write like an intro poem. And then I work on my different projects for probably like two or three hours, and I play like ambient music, which is like a strange playlist on Spotify. Because it like tries out everything. But I just set it like a table. I don't have like a elaborate setup or anything. And I don't feel like I need one I just I can write anywhere as long as I have coffee, and a table and my laptop.
Elise 40:07
That's those guys question coffee, tea, or water?
Speaker 1 40:10
I drink a lot of coffee. I think I got like a supremely addicted when I had I had an internship, I like a major publishing house. It was really cool. I was very broke. And they had like a free coffee bar. And I drank like, I was drinking maybe like six or seven cups of coffee because I was like, This is great. And then I was like, wow, I have like a sustained addiction. But anyway, like, I pay for myself down now. And I like drink a reasonable two cups of coffee. But I that's what I do. It's nothing really like fancy. The other thing that I do is I take notes throughout my day. So I have like a little note card. I take notes on things that I think are strange, or interesting.
Elise 40:45
Yeah, that's a good I was I was thinking in my head. I was like, yeah, like a sketchbook.
Robin 40:50
Basically, it's like writing sketchbook. Yeah, that's awesome.
Elise 40:53
Cool. So in, in all of your writing, what are some things that you're really excited about that are coming up or things Yeah, working on and share as much or as little as you'd like.
Speaker 1 41:06
So I have a book that's coming out in May called Gooseberry. And it's my first book in prose. So I'm really excited about that. Because I think that I felt, I don't know, self conscious that I haven't had a book in prose and like, will I be able to do it, but I did it and it's fine. It's about a young non binary kid who is in the foster care system and has been bounced around a lot. And like a fair they meet this like really wild dog named gooseberry, who is like, terribly behaved, and they decide like, because they want to be a dog trainer, they're like, I'm gonna get Gooseberry. And they ended up being placed at a house with like, a queer couple. And the queer couple lets them get gooseberry. And they have a lot of adventures. And basically, their goal was to try to train gooseberry to be like a therapy dog. And you have to read it to see everything else that happens. But I'm really excited about it, it was a really fun project actually had like a young local young poet, who had his own experiences in the foster care system be like, like authenticity reader on it. So it was really cool to get to work with somebody else to locally. And yeah, I think it's gonna be exciting. I'm gonna bring my dog. So some of the readings. I don't have anything scheduled yet. But I'm really excited about the book. And then in terms of like, stuff that I'm writing, I have an another book in the works that I can't talk about totally yet. But in terms of ones that are in like draft format, I'm working on a project with my partner, which is cool. I've never like co-written a book. But we're co writing a book about feral queer teenagers who go into the woods. And meet a monster that's called the every beast, and it can like shape shift between different monsters. And they, you know, basically unite together to expose abuse that's happening in the church that they're part of. And again, someone will have to read it to know what happens. But it was really a healing process. And like, cool, because my partner and I both just had hard experiences growing up. And so I think it was really about capturing and being kind to like younger versions of ourselves. And also exploring the idea of, what if I met you when I was 14. And tt was a it was a fun process, I say was... we're almost done. So that's been a really fun project. And I'm always working on other like YA and middle grade books. Another middle grade book that I have in very early draft form is about a stowaway trans boy going out to sea, because he wants to basically live as himself. It's set in the late 1700s, and the ship gets rerouted into the Sea of Monsters. And so him and the crew basically have to survive sea monsters and stuff. So those are just some projects. And then other than that, I run my own small business with my partner. So our small business, and we do all kinds of stuff we do like basically like any kind of diversity, equity and inclusion kind of trainings, and then all kinds of like arts related stuff. And I'm really excited about those projects, trying to think of a good example of that kind of thing. Like I do poetry workshops. He teaches about like, ecology and environmental education, foraging, partner color, all kinds of stuff. And so doing that kind of work together has been really exciting. So, yeah.
Elise 44:27
Is there anything like over the last couple of months that you've done that? You were like, You laughs and you were like, Oh, that felt so good, or like, oh, like whether you attended or like something that you got to table at or vend or whatever?
Speaker 1 44:39
Yeah. So me and my partner are like, diversity and artistic consultants on a play going on at Muhlenberg College, and it's called The Haunting at Hartfield Hall. And it's actually was actually written by someone who was my intern at a former job, and it's a trans like ghost story, and it's So, so cool. And we got to do like a half day workshop where we talked about queer themes. And we did like some poetry exercises with a cast. And it was just wonderful because so many of the people in the cast are queer, telling, like a queer ghost story. And the play itself is beautiful and brilliant. And it's just really exciting to like, be part of something like that and get to work with their cast. It's gonna be really great. It's the play itself goes up at the end of end of February, early March. So it's coming up really soon. But yeah, that was something that I, I mean, I don't have any role in like, I'm not acting in it. I didn't write it was a really, it was really beautiful to be part of that experience. And I'm, like, grateful to be able to help them realize everything they want to.
Elise 45:45
That's awesome. So I was curious, like, what the connection was, but you said that it was someone that you had worked with? Is that how they found you so that you could work in this capacity?
Speaker 1 45:55
Their director found me, because I've worked on a few different things before for different local colleges and stuff like that. And I've been doing like DEI training for about 10 years now. So like, I've been around that sphere. And we just connected and the director is really great. He was very adamant about like, wanting to make sure that they he did it right, because he's not part of the community. And he's like, I really want people involved to make sure it's done right. And he really has done a really great job. Really beautiful.
Elise 46:25
cool. Fun. I like that. I'm definitely gonna go check that out.
Speaker 1 46:30
Oh, it's so fun. Last week, we got to see like the first half performed, and I was blown away. Like I thought the script was great. But I didn't get to see it like, staged... and staged is even better, obviously. But you know.
Elise 46:44
So you spoke a little bit about your partner did the two of you said you have this kind of consulting business together?
Speaker 1 46:52
Yeah, and we do art too. So like it's basically like art and consulting.
Elise 46:56
And are you kind of from the Lehigh Valley area? Or did you move here?
Speaker 1 47:02
Yeah, I'm from coast. I'm from Kutztown. So yeah, Berks. It's halfway between Allentown and writing. So it's kind of like, you can go either direction. I actually grew up more like, like doing things in the reading area. But I always have been around Allentown. I moved to New York for graduate school. And then I moved to Carbon County, which was interesting. I love the folks of Jim Thorpe. But it was really hard to build community. There's just a difficult sphere. There's a lot of really supportive people. And there's a lot of like, very non supportive people. And I didn't totally like feel safe. And then I got a job in the Lehigh Valley. And I moved here with a friend, and really start to build a community. And now I've been here since 2020. And yeah, it's I love living here. I know, it's small, and like, you know, we can make all of our jokes about that. But I really do think that there's like a lot of really beautiful things here. And I I enjoy the since I've lived in like New York City area, like, I know that I can't live in a big city. I like the like more manageable city. That was out for me. Well, it's very big, very expensive. I mean, it was fun, but you know, so. So that's my tie to the Lehigh Valley.
Elise 48:28
Thank you earlier for mentioning community and these poetry groups that you enjoy being part of, because I think that's always like, something I like about our show. I learn a lot from people about like, the communities that they operate in and things that they enjoy. And I think people listening, hopefully, they're like, oh, that's exactly what I was looking for, like, Oh, something like that. So we'll make sure like title those groups and
Speaker 1 48:49
totally in your episode, too. I feel like it's so important to have everybody share stuff like that. Because sometimes, I think in like certain pockets of like Lehigh Valley people would be like, we don't have any of this. And the reality is that people are doing so much cool, like niche work all across the valley. I mean, it's really just about like, connecting, they're finding folks, because sometimes it's hard to find those spaces, but they exist and people are building them and it's really beautiful.
Elise 49:15
So Robin, if people are interested in finding your work online, finding your books, finding your poetry finding about what you're up to next, where can they find that?
Speaker 1 49:25
I am on Instagram and Tiktok at Robin and Twitter or whatever they're calling it. Robin_gow_poet, and I yeah, I do a lot of like Tiktoks, it's like my favorite social media because I just like like to be goofy and strange. So I've recommended if even if you haven't done tiktok yet like it's very fun. And then I just have like, my website is just robingow.com. My partner and I also run an Etsy page. He's more in charge of that because he's the more artists design of things. But we work on it together. So it's a collaborative project. And then that's wanderrenwild. That is the Etsy page. So if you want to check out, we make all kinds of like beaded earrings, art prints, all kinds of strange stuff. So check it out.
Elise 50:14
Cool. Robin, thank you so, so much.
Robin 50:24
Thank you so much for having me.
Ben Orr 50:25
Robin, thank you so much for coming on today's episode, or opportunity of the week is for the fine arts and curiosities craft show and vendor market hosted by Arkana, antiques and oddities. That is going on Saturday, March 9 of 2024. From 10am to 4pm. This is a craft show and vendor market dedicated to showcasing Fine Art, oddities and the metaphysical.
Elise 50:49
Thanks for tuning in to the Lehigh Valley arts podcast. Don't forget to like the podcast leave us a review and follow us on both social media and streaming services at Lehigh Valley arts podcast.