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Manhood often feels like navigating through uncharted territory, but you don't have to walk alone. Join us as we guide a conversation about how to live intentionally so that we can join God in reclaiming the masculine restorative presence he designed us to live out. Laugh, cry, and wonder with us as we explore the ins and outs of manhood together.
Cody Buriff
Hey guys, welcome to this week's episode of the Restorative Man Podcast. My name's Cody Buriff I get to host this week alongside my good friend Jesse French. Jesse
Jesse French
Cody! Hey man.
Cody Buriff
Good to see you. Welcome back from the weekend. Good to be with you. All right. So we're just gonna jump right in. This conversation's gonna be around brotherhood and rupture and repair of ruptures that happen in relationships. And we're gonna talk a little bit about forgiveness and a few other things. But to tee that up, Jesse, I'm gonna just put you on the spot. We've been friends for like, I don't know, almost six years. Yeah. And we have had some conflicts. Yeah.
Jesse French
It's good to be with you.
We have.
Cody Buriff
And I'm just gonna throw you on the spot and say, do you remember any of them? What would you tell the listening audience about what it's like maybe maybe I don't wanna ask this, what it's like to be in conflict with me or or how we've handled those or what that's been like.
Jesse French
Yeah. I think I just start I've just I've handled them perfectly, Cody. So it's I'm no you know, I've never been at fault.
Cody Buriff
Wow.
Jesse French
Joking about that is laughable. it's good. Yeah, man. yeah, I think I maybe would just start with this. I can remember, so Cody and I obviously work together, but we are we're good friends. And I can remember it was maybe like four or five years ago, and we were working on a project and you were working on creating a resource, and you had put a just a bunch of time into it. And
kind of in the home stretch of that and you'd sent a version over and I was looking at it. And you know, it was really clear you had been working really hard. It was really close. But we got into this this conversation around like kind of how much content to include in that. Like essentially how much do we need to hold the hand of the person that is using the resource? and how much blatant instruction do should we give to that?
And the other thing too around you and I that we talk about a lot is our wirings are very different. in some ways. And one of the ways that we talk about this is Cody is very like intuitive, just has a like, you feel this out, you don't need to like map out every step, right? And I I am on more of the opposite side of that. I'm like, man, let's just, you know, hammer out every single little point. Yeah.
Cody Buriff
You're
high process and I'm just like I already just know what to do. Like Yeah.
Jesse French
Totally. That's that's exactly right.
Yeah. Like, what do you mean I have to tell the person? This is dumb. Like, just you know this. And
Cody Buriff
Yeah. Brush your teeth. I don't need to tell you every detail of how to, right?
Jesse French
Exactly. Exactly. So we started getting a conversation around that very issue, right? Of like how how much instruction should we give to this? And I can just remember each of us felt strongly around like our own opinion around it. This is a couple years ago, but I feel like there was multiple kind of conversations around trying to sort through like, man, what what are we gonna do with this? Like, how do we want to finish this project that we're working on and what to include and what not to include?
And I think if and jump in here for sure, because I don't want to like have revisionist memory here. but I remember it like each of us continued to be honest and to just say like I feel very strongly around my position. And kinda got a little bit to an impasse and ultimately I remember saying like, Hey man, this is this is how it's gonna go. and like kind of pulled the override card. And
Cody Buriff
I got trumped. Jesse is the executive director. He's technically he's my boss, not just my coworker and friend. So he trumped me.
Jesse French
Well they're like ace of spades, whatever card and like over Road Cody.
Cody Buriff
And rightly so. Like I we were talking about this like what probably last week. Like I need to be reminded that like not everybody's highly intuitive, like in the Myers Briggs or whatever. Like people actually need instruction.
Jesse French
And I need to be reminded also, like, you can take those instructions too far. And like it is detrimental to just, you know, be so methodical in black and white. Sure. But I think the thing that I part of the reason I want to I bring that up is I remember a little bit after that conversation, you and I coming back and saying, like, okay, let's put the project aside, you know, like, but more what was this process like for you and I of trying to work through this and
the conflict of us trying to come to inclusion, but even more than that, like the process of relating to one another in the midst of that. And I remember a phrase that you told me, I think was really important. And you said, Jesse, it's very difficult for me when I'm given responsibility, but not authority.
Cody Buriff
Yeah.
Jesse French
And I just remember being very grateful for that. And there was no like, you know, silver bullet in saying that in the sense of like everything just got fixed and had a bow around it. But it just felt like one of those phrases of like, this is really important for Cody to be able to say this. I need to be able to hear this. because now we're in the realm of not just, you know, opinions around how a work project is done. Now we're into the realm of, no, this is some of who I am and and the way that.
my own heart is and the fears and values around that. Now we're into that realm, which is actually the place of meaningful friendship and relationship that has to be engaged far more than, you know, deliverables of of a product. And so that's sort of the piece that I that I remember just being really grateful for of like your honesty around that, your courage in saying that, and to be able to have some of that that space to to surface that conversation.
Cody Buriff
Yeah. No, that's thanks for remembering all those things. That's good. I'm aware like there's an element of this, it's like work relationship, you know? And there's an element of it that's like the personal friendship. And both sides are very present in that situation, and probably in most of our situations, right? and what I remember, Jesse, and continue to see over the course of the last six years is like I might have the like just
highly principled, I have to be honest and whatever, like authentic and share whatever I'm thinking or feeling, which maybe sometimes I overshare. You have intense humility and willingness to like be open to hearing things and be curious about them and caring more about what's going on in my heart than necessarily the issue.
on the table, if that makes sense. The issue on the table isn't actually the issue on the table. And that is one of the things that has made me trust you and enjoy you. Probably there's a lot of things, right? But that's one of the things that has made me trust you and enjoy you as a coworker, as a boss, but also as a friend and somebody I can you can I can just show up to. And so as we're as we're we're just kind of
Spilling the beans on a on you know some of our relationships. And maybe it's helpful for some of you to hear or at least entertaining. Let's yeah. Let's jump in and just name the reality, Jesse, that like every relationship that matters in our lives is going to have some level of conflict. Like we are going to disagree on something.
Jesse French
For you.
Mm-hmm.
Cody Buriff
We are going to hurt each other. And probably the more that we open ourselves up to connection, the more we're open to being hurt. Yeah. We kind of drop our walls to receive love. It also drops the shields that protect us from, you know, the daggers and spikes and whatever. Yes. And as humans, like we are prickly people, like all of us are. And so we're gonna stab each other on accident sometimes, sometimes on purpose, which that's a whole nother thing.
Well, for people that we love and love us back, the reality is we're gonna hurt each other. If you've been married for like ten seconds, you probably know that art, you know. It's part of the deal. And so we're talking about brotherhood. And brotherhood is very much the diving down under the surface, dropping some of those walls, letting other men see into our lives, which means we're a little bit raw or able to be irritated much more easily in that reality.
Jesse French
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. And I you know, as you're saying that, Cody, I'm nodding my head and internally I'm also like, I freaking hate this. Like
Cody Buriff
True. This is true. As Jesse is like hates conflict. I do.
Jesse French
Like in the in a really healthy way, if you're like, this is great. Like, this is actually the place we need to be. I'm like, my gosh, like pull my toenails off with my scripts, like I hate this. And and so I'm feeling that, but you're so right. Like any sort of relationship that we are in, this is going to be bedrock. And I would even add, and I think part of the reason we wanted to tee this up in the this brotherhood kind of series that we're in, is like.
I think in lots of ways, the ability to engage conflict or how that plays out, it reveals so much of the relationship like structure or depth that is present there. Because right, if the the people that don't matter to us on the the we're not gonna walk into this and be like, hey man, this is really this is really difficult. Right. It's just like it doesn't mean that much to me. I'm unwilling to.
But Brotherhood, we're trying to foster this meaningful space that you're talking about where our defenses actually can be lowered. And so we want then to be able to so many great things about Brotherhood and like you're saying, it's not all roses. And because these matter, we want to be able to step into the hard, but really the honest and important conversations of when one or both people are hurt.
Cody Buriff
Yeah, totally.
Jesse French
Cody, I'd I'd ask you, what do you think the and maybe you could there's probably a lot you could say, but like just give us some quick thoughts around how you think the typical ways we have learned to handle conflict or handle hurt, especially in the container of friendships with other men. Like what is maybe the default, again, broad brush statement, but some of the default ways we approach that.
Cody Buriff
Yeah, I well, I think one of the ways, frankly, is we avoid relationships in the first place.
Jesse French
To even to even avoid the potential of some of
Cody Buriff
Exactly. Like you know, we've all been hurt by friends. And probably as kids, like even we got hurt by friends. And so we learned to start putting up walls pretty early. And so a lot of us like at some point it's easier to just sit on your couch by yourself and watch T V than it is to go hang out with people. And there's lots of reasons for that, but conflict I think is one of you just don't want to get hurt. And so that's one thing that we do. That's a default that happens.
And then I think once you're in relationship, there's a default of like just letting it go. Or hitting the exit button, the eject button on the relationship and just kind of ghosting people. Like the so there's the letting it go for the detriment of yourself and hopes that you can keep the relationship, which is, you know, dishonest.
not actually helpful, not actually bringing you closer to another person's actually creating divide, and just building resentment. That's not actually, you know, brotherhood.
Jesse French
It's actually like a lack of integrity, right? It is disintegrity to say.
Cody Buriff
Yes.
Yeah. That's yes, exactly. And then the other the other default is just to hit ejects and start ghosting people, which obviously doesn't lead to connection. Right. And so in my mind those are the two primary defaults. There may be one other one and and that is when people like hang on to things way too long and push other people away because they need to be the victim.
They need to be the one who is owed. And so that is a default that we can slide into as well. So those are some those are some thoughts. Quick thoughts.
Jesse French
Yeah, I think those are helpful patterns just to be articulated. And I think in the ignore it piece, like in that pattern, I think it is the it's this mentality, right? Of like, if enough time goes by, like healing will happen, right? Like the old adage, like time heals all wounds type of thing, of like, hey, if enough enough time can unfold, then all will be well. Which is like how it works. It isn't. It isn't.
And yet, boy, that it just is such a and I think I would add one more sort of maybe it's not a pattern, but maybe environmental factor that certainly does us no favors, right? Is the general atmosphere I would say within masculinity today, right? I would say is pretty darn antagonistic to, hey, this hurt me. Yeah. Right? Like to articulate that to someone else or this was hard.
Right there is the admission of is a vulnerable thing to admit and it comes with the casings of all of the stereotypes of like, bro, suck it up. Like you know, all of that I would say kind of environment that we're in just makes it that much harder to step into an honest conversation to admit what was hard.
Cody Buriff
Yeah, I mean it it frankly, it takes balls. Like you don't want to be seen as fragile. Mm-hmm. But it's actually takes more courage as to step into that space where you could be seen as fragile to be seen as you are actually vulnerable. And that's a that takes strength.
Jesse French
Yeah. Yes. Yes, for sure.
Cody Buriff
Okay, so Jesse, we're talking about all these concepts of rupture, repair. Can we look at the repair side? Like just once rupture happens, right? We're now we're aware that it's going to happen. What do we do next?
Jesse French
Yeah. I think I mean, even just the step of having the awareness that rupture happened, right? And rupture's a word, right, of like something was painful or difficult for us, right? In the relationship with someone else. So even being able to identify that and say, Man, that conversation with that person, like something was off there, something was difficult for me. Like sounds obvious, but I would say even just the identification of that is the starting place.
Mm.
Cody Buriff
Before you before you jump in to whatever's next, I don't know where you're going next, but like why is that important, Jesse? Well I would say why is that difficult?
Jesse French
I would say because we have a all of our lives of looking past that. We have also spectrum, I have I have a bunch of years of experience of feeling, you know, some sort of disconnect, hurtful statement, something like that. And the the default is like on to the next. Sweep it under the rug, you know, like roll off your back. Let it roll off your back. Exactly. Like so there is so much reinforced.
data of responding it to that way. So to actually do something different and to pause and say, man, that felt bad. Just that step is a movement into engaging that in a different way than we have been when we've been used to.
Cody Buriff
That's good. So that's good to just point out.
Jesse French
Yeah. So I think that that's part of it. And then I would say, you know, our friend Chris, who's on this podcast often, I remember him talking about some of the process of just if that starts with the identification of that, then can we begin to name some of that? Like to just put some really even simple words around what that felt like and that to say, you know, hey, when you said this to identify man, that that felt bad. And I think some of the naming around that was like, I felt overlooked. I felt discarded. You know, like and again, this maybe sounds very basic, but to identify that and then to then put some naming to what the emotion was and what felt difficult about that feels like two of the important steps.
Cody Buriff
Mm. That's good.
Jesse French
Where does your mind go there?
Cody Buriff
Well, no, it's I think it's helpful to to be able to name it for yourself, name it for the other person. Mm-hmm. And granted, what we're talking about is when you have felt like kind of ruptured against maybe we'll jump to the other side of it here in a few minutes, but there is then the reality of for of forgiveness that we have to like move into one way or another. Like I think there's a reality like as God moves towards us.
In forgiveness. Like we were made to move into the world with forgiveness as repairers of ruptures. So there's a whole podcast series on this. I'm just gonna name it. Go look it up. Go Google it. It's not us. It's Kurt Thompson, good friend of ours. The Being Known podcast, season eleven, I believe. They did an entire like, I don't know, twelve or fifteen podcasts on rupture and repair, and it's all like gold. So if you're listening to this and it it's hitting like
That's the deep dive. That's the deep dive. We're not we're not diving that deep right now. But like I we have to pursue forgiveness. And I I think there's a couple of realities. Like, I think as men, we and probably just humanity, like we can confuse the idea of forgiveness with pretending that it didn't matter.
Jesse French
Mm-hmm.
Cody Buriff
And that's kind of what you were getting at with actually naming, hey, this matters. And therefore I need to forgive it and pursue restoration. Right. restoration project. Right. as opposed to just assuming it r you know, letting it roll off your back and deciding it didn't didn't matter at all. Now, Jesse, I'll just say like there is a tension for me in knowing like
When do I bring something up? When do I let something go? Because there are things that are just kind of small and dumb and whatever. And it's like, okay, I don't need to make this a big freaking conversation and deal bigger than it is. And there are times where like we gotta talk about stuff. And so figuring out where you're at on that scale, like, can be tricky. I think there's a reality, like, if you're aware that it hurts and it like.
Jesse French
Yep.
Cody Buriff
You're in tune with yourself and it's sticking with you. Well then you gotta bring it up. Mm-hmm.
Jesse French
Yeah. I
if it's like lingering and just continues to be there it feels like, Hey, there's some evidence that this is important.
Cody Buriff
Yeah, totally. And that's part of pursuing forgiveness is is that step and restoration and reconciliation is that step and then I think there's a reality that we are only responsible for one side of that equation. Forgiveness is a gift that we can offer. the other person may not receive it. Or they may never see their need to receive it.
Jesse French
Yeah.
Cody Buriff
And yet we can still offer it. Now, how the relationship looks moving forward might shift based on how that conversation goes and how it's received, but it's our responsibility to move into that space and be pursuing repair. Yep.
Jesse French
I'm so glad you said that, like, which is the vulnerable piece to say to risk this hurt, and then it is in the other person's court of like how they would like to respond. And that is a brave vulnerable piece to because that isn't known. They could handle it incredibly well or they could, you know, just totally totally be dismissive.
Cody Buriff
The other quick thing I'd just point out is like forgiveness is a decision. You know, it's something you decide to do. It doesn't just happen, like you said, it you know, time doesn't heal all wounds. That's baloney. It's also a process. It doesn't happen overnight. Like for the most part. And the process of that, depending on the severity of the rupture, might take a lot more time. It might take a lot more energy, but it's actually the same process. And it it is a process. Yeah.
has to be revisited, even inside just your own self. Mm-hmm.
Jesse French
I think that's a really important piece because if we kind of flip roles, you know, we've been talking about the person who has been hurt. So if we flip roles to the person that is now receiving hey, yeah, my friend's just told me that I've hurt them. I think I know this is true for me. I think there can be so like right when you're on the receiving end, especially with someone that is is important to you, right? To hear them say, like, hey, how you treated me in here was hurtful, was difficult, right? Like, usually that's the like
gut shot of like, frick, like dang it. I dropped the ball. You know, I didn't intend for that to happen.
Cody Buriff
Or you get really defensive.
Jesse French
Or
you get super defensive, right? I would say those are like, yeah. And it can be some of that. And so I think I know it can be easy. This is true for me. To like as I maybe wade through that process of maybe there's the like crap, I'm super disappointed. Or, like you said, well said, I'm really defensive of like, what do you you know? And have that reaction. As I wade through some of that, I know I can be quick to like that process of trying to sort through all of that with the other person. To me, again, that's the like.
You know, by scripts of a toenail, I'm like, this feels awful. And so I know I can have the strong desire of like, how can we I ease this uncomfortable, excruciating process? And for me, I know the like, let me forgive this other person and to view that as like that's ultimately where we want to go. Can we just get there so that I can extract myself out of this uncomfortable mess? And man, this.
Chuck DeGroat, like another good friend of ours, he has just this brilliant phrase or a couple of phrases that I think is so good. And he says, What I want to encourage us is often when we say, please forgive me, sometimes our urgency to be forgiven is less about repairing the relationship and more about relieving our own anxiety. And that's worth being curious about.
He says, before asking for forgiveness, perhaps a better question is, would you be willing to help me understand more fully how I've hurt you? I want to listen and I don't want to rush your process. Last phrase. Repair usually begins not with being forgiven, but with being willing to understand the depth of the wound we've caused.
Cody Buriff
Yeah.
Jesse French
I think that is such a helpful perspective because I can view it as like, no, repair means forgiveness. So let me just tell the other person, you know, to ask for their forgiveness and get to that. And I think what he's saying is, no, we're actually short circuiting the process of repair, of really trying to understand the depth of that wound, the depth of what that costs the other person. And without knowing that, me offering forgiveness is cheapened.
It doesn't actually hold the weight that it needs to. I'm I'm trying to say the magic phrase without walking through the process that needs to happen.
Cody Buriff
Yeah. Well, and just as you're saying all that, it's like the process you're describing, the cheap process, isn't about the other person. No. It's not about the relationship. It's not about the other person. It's about you. And how uncomfortable you are and how you need to deal with your discomfort, not how actually repairing and deepening and reconciling relationship. Yeah.
Jesse French
Yes. Yes.
Yes. Spot on. And so when you view it through that lens, it actually is it is the movement towards the other person. It is the care of the other person to ask the really hard question of I want to hear more about what this caused, about the pain, about why this is important. Because that is motivated by the other person. Again, brilliantly put, it's not about relieving my own anxiety.
Cody Buriff
Yeah, totally. Yeah, I just with what I think of is like Jesse, we're we're pushing guys towards brotherhood. That's where we want you to go. We want you to engage with other men, to be in relationship, and therefore you're gonna experience conflicts. And sometimes you're gonna be the one, you know, we're all point you know, spiky little people that, you know, are gonna end up accidentally stabbing others. And we wanna be the kind of men who are easy to forgive because we
Actually, are stepping in with care for each other. Mm-hmm. And it's not that we don't care about ourselves. That's not what we're saying, right? It's not that we don't care for ourselves, but it's that actually caring for ourselves in brotherhood means caring for the relationship and the connection with the other man and caring for him. Right. We're stronger together.
You know, it's like anytime, you know, you go work out, you hear this analogy all the time, right? You go work out and your your muscle fibers get torn when you lift a lot of weight and then they repair and heal themselves and come back stronger. And like same thing with relationships. Conflicts and ruptures like have to happen in those muscle fibers so that reconciliation can come back and deepen connection and strength of relationship. Yes.
Jesse French
Yeah. I think that is fundamental to this space of brotherhood. Like, brotherhood is not the absence of conflict. It's actually the engagement of that. And ultimately, this might sound weird, but I mean, for someone else, if we kind of try to think about it objectively, not in the heat of the moment, for someone else to come to us and say, Hey Jesse, hey Cody, like this was really hard for me. This hurt.
when you did this. Like in the moment, like you're saying, that can be really difficult. We can be defensive. But if we think about it from the outside, like, isn't that proof that that relationship matters? Right. And so in some ways, like it is a gift for someone to say, I value our friendship enough that I'm not going to pretend that I'm not going to sweep it under the rug, but I I have enough trust in who you are and in what our relationship is that we can actually navigate that. Like
That's a big It's a big deal. And it's actually proof that the relationship matters and that they there's something in you that they believe like, hey, he can handle this. Like I'm willing to trust him to walk through this.
Cody Buriff
Or at least I want to.
Jesse French
I'm cooked for that.
Cody Buriff
Yeah. Yeah, totally. Means they they like you and want to be in a relationship with you.
Jesse French
Yeah.
Cody Buriff
That's good. Jesse, that was a good conversation. I know that we like that was a quick flyover from like, here's conflict one one and relationships in half an hour, but you know, I hope it was helpful for you guys listening. I know it's helpful for me to to think about and chew on. Anything else you wanna say as we wrap up?
Jesse French
I hope it's I say this to me as much as anyone, like I hope that we have a just a gracious posture towards the process. Like it is messy, right? Like it is that walking through when we have been hurt, when we have hurt others, like it isn't smooth, it will be clunky, it is risky, all of those things. And so I I hope there just is a a both
Encouragement of this matters and also the acknowledgement of like, and it's hard and it's it's anything but, you know, three easy steps to a certain outcome. And yet I'll say this, and I'd ask I'd ask you this, Cody. Like, as you think back towards the times where you have engaged this process of hurt and of conflict, as a broad category, like, are you grateful for like the effort that that took? I'm sure there's instances of like, man, that
That didn't go well. That was like not what I wanted. But as a whole, like when you think about these honest conversations is the thought, like, that matters. And I'm grateful for how I've done that, obviously imperfectly, but grateful for the risk that that required and where those relationships are.
Cody Buriff
Yeah, I can probably say that I have never regretted bringing something that is able that needed to be brought to table. Mm-hmm. You know, in terms of a rupture done to me. And I have always appreciated when someone has brought a rupture that I have caused to the table. Yeah. It's hard, it sucks, and it it should. It's not because like if it's hard, it's not because, you know, you're a weak person or something. It's hard because it's hard.
And it's worth it. Yeah. But the other side of it means either stronger relationships or sometimes it means that that relationship doesn't continue and it's probably a good thing as well. Yeah. you know, if we're honest. Mm-hmm. And I've seen both. And sad and good are not against each other. Sometimes there are sad outcomes, but that doesn't mean they're not good outcomes or right outcomes.
on the other hand, like there are often good outcomes. As we are men who are, you know, moving in the spirit of God towards reconciliation and restoration and repair, there is goodness available in that. And we can find the spirit of God in that. And it's worth moving into.
Jesse French
Yeah. Yeah. Well said. Yeah. Tony, thanks. Thanks for this chat, man.
Cody Buriff
Definitely. Thank you, Jesse. Thank you guys for listening. leave us a rating on whatever, Spotify, iTunes, whatever you're listening to this on. And we'll be back in a week or two and with a little bit more. Awesome. See you guys.
Jesse French
Yeah.